Ivan very impressive diagnosis. Your getting better and better kid. Love the fact how you respect scanner danner and Eric O. Both of my favorite repair guys.
+Toyota Tech You know, front probing with a test light is a gateway drug to poking holes in wires with piercing tools. Just because the "cool kids" are doing it doesn't mean Ivan should. And if he has, that explains global warming.
Ivan, you have the patience and determination of a saint! Plus a huge helping of knowledge and intuition! I hope that some vehicle manufacturers will reverse the unnecessary complication of systems and build user (and mechanic) friendly vehicles.
It's amazing to me that they made the switch internal. Stuff like that is what is really annoying about new cars, and then it can't even tell you what's wrong! I'm sworn off Chrysler products for life after my dad's 2014 Grand Cherokee disaster, lol. Great job finding the problem!
+motoYam82 mr tpm is the one to blame I had a similar vehicle (chry) come in for intermiten no start or long crank time an diagnosed it down to fuel pump relay and guess what ,is integrated in mr tipm very expensive fix great job btw
love your chanell, I learn a lot from you and mr. SMA aka Eric O. in book book you guys are great technicians and are kind enough to share your knowledge with us. thank you
Great diagnostics Ivan and you're right that todays cars are getting even more modules on vehicles. And of course, these things can turn into a nightmare. I worked on a Suzuki Forenza that had an issue with a tranny range sensor. As in your car, the ECM is looking for a unique combination of highs and lows (opens and closes) to determine which gear it's in. And that information is passed along to the instrument cluster to light the unique letter of the PRND. But it was strange that the ECM couldn't determine that the tranny switch was bad. Yet in your bypass test, it did see a rationality test that was wrong. Keep up the good work....
+stuzman52 Hey Terry, thanks for the comment! I am afraid to think what cars will be like even in the near future...you need to be an network communication specialist to have any chance of diagnosing those. Replacing "modules" can get very expensive very fast!
It may be the main engine ground on the transmission not making a good connection, this van I had the bolt was about corroded off still holding ground wire on though if looked at. Cranked on the bolt broke entirely off! Rerouted and added wire to it over to a transmission bell housing bolt. Was doing all the same and codes your vehicle was doing. Everything went back to normal after repair
Here's when one wonders where is this modern technology going? .... Is all that computerised interaction crap really needed??? What was wrong with all transmission systems that we've had for years, that we had to computerise them? I'm officially old. Things were better in my time!! Great vid Ivan!
Thanks for your video my caravanagon is having an intermittent no crank problem too, shift selector works good though, you give me more to go on than I had before .still could be the park neutral switch or tr sensor. Thanks very much!
I don't know much about cars. I'm a mom of three who needed a good minivan. I owned Dodge Caravan and it was breaking down all the time (transmission). I swore to never buy Chrysler minivan again. What did I do? I bought 2009 VW Routan!! Few weeks into owning it I went online looking for tow capacity and Dodge information kept popping up. I refused to believe it so I looked under the hood and sure enough it said Chrysler. I am still almost 5 grands upside down on this car and it is barely drivable. I can't keep up with repairs - it is breaking down all the time. Never in my life would I imagine that by purchasing a VW at a VW Dealership I actually bought a Dodge with a VW sticker. I also can't believe I just watched this video. It was interesting seeing the process of diagnosing the problem.
motoYam82 Ha! That's how I ended up on this video... I was watching some Sienna videos. Well, that's how it started. I am definitely considering Sienna.
I'm working on a 2006 grand caravan. The same switch circuit is malfunctioning. On the dodges, there is a shift lever position test. Autel shows codes for it. This one has code 1. It's not a p,b, or any type of normal code. Just code 1. I replaced the internal range range sensor thinking it was bad. It is on top of the valve body. There are wear marks on the shift plate where the sensor rubs against. Well, I guess I should have checked the wiring first. I need to check the wires next ,and make a temporary ground like what you did. Thanks for your tip.
I finished working on the van today. I ran the transmission shift lever position test and the code was #2. I looked at the live data and used my test light to ground the 4 different trans range sense circuit. Like you i had no change in the park/reverse circuit. I ohmed the wire and found an open. After tracing the wires, I found a broken wire at the range sensor plug end. There was a factory splice right at the connector. The splice came apart. Sadly, there was not room to repair the wire. So, at my shop, we have a scrap van that I was able to salvage the connector. The vehicle is back on the road!
your diagnoses is for sure correct, the last position it saw was reverse so thats why its staying in reverse, the neutral must use the same circuit inside of the PRNDL, i kinda feel bad for you guys these Fiat built Gem's are coming out of warranty so you will see more and more of them. i work on Gm's and i find there a lot easyer to work on then FCA
Remember when PRNDL was a needle pulled by a cable? I thought 500$ for my Routan was a good deal. You have the quality of a caravan but no parts available, no information and in Canada, I’ve had several mechanics say they don’t work on these. The transmission is faulty yet cannot be repaired, *intermittently* shows shift solenoid fault AND I tested resistance as normal. Resets by turning off and on again. Now it won’t start at times unless I change the gears a few times.
well.....Donnie and Marie should sing a song called " I'm a little bit Mopar, I'm a little bit Euro trash". wait. ..I have a Mopar and a VW in my driveway, but they are separate. I'm showing my age with the Donnie and Marie comment. Anyway, great work Ivan.
Great diagnostic Ivan, to bad labour time was that expensive to bad to have such new car and can not afford real repair. They should put more expensive parts in places like this that last longer.
When it comes to vw i up till now use to use Fred tdi page . I appreciate your videos . I always hear its never given any trouble, yea untill it does . I own a vw and a Dodge but not because of there great wiring ..
The problem is the neutral position ignition lock out for the PRND selector! The part is either broken or not sensing N or P because it is out of adjustment. If it's using fero-magnetic technology then those magnets or sensors are cheapo made. This is a really great video. You were so close with the first test around minute 11 to 12 or so. The ignition switch was saying it was in the correct positions. I've seen this before with Saturn cars. I honestly feel the didn't have an ignition issue. It was probably the ignition lockout on the shift lever area. BUT why didn't their top, factory mechanics and engineers said replace a few million ignition switches. He nails it at 23:20... I should call him. ;) Good luck to all future readers of this post, there are many out there I can tell you. Factory trained mechs at local VW shop wanted to replace starter. lol
Must have missed the moment where we found out that it wasn't the fault of the dash mounted range switch leading to the genuine transmission range selector switch at fault. But I trust your judgement on eliminating the cheaper of the two to fix. Wondering if the transmission switch could be swapped out during a standard transmission filter replacement with pan off? Not the typical DIY project but it might be doable just the same. Internally it could be a bad solder joint or bent contacts so fixing might be accomplished with a can of brake cleaner and tweaking with a pocket screwdriver? Just supposition here as I don't know enough beyond the possibilities, but Hiram Gutierrez would have a much better idea there - watch his videos and be amazed. Top drawer entertainment for me.
Nice jump from VW to Dodge. How do manufactures get away with this re-badging stuff? Crazy.Crazy too are the electronics. My gosh I think were going backwards. Nice work figuring that one out.
As a next step, could you put the ground end of your test lamp onto a switch...so that you could turn on/off your test probe connection and emulate what the computer WANTS to see from that input (and WHEN?) Might be very helpful....
That's a strange one in every way. Chrysler wasn't too bad until Mercedes got hold of it. They added some good qualities and made a huge mess of other things (the Mercedes ignition key) You got the problem patched at least but I think there was more to it because the shifter was stuck in park. Very nice job anyway, Ivan. I can't wait until we see what Fiat does to Chrysler.
well chrysler has been bailed out twice now, they have the most recalls and now they are owned by a manufacturer which has been kicked out of america. try a grand cherokee with a german diesel in it, aussie lift with chevy ball joints, talk about an odd ball. truth is that dodge has always been about performance, not reliability or even safe for that matter. I am confident they have the most recalls plus who else makes a radio you can hack and take control of a vehicle remotely? there is a cut out in the dash to get the vehicle out of park manually b.t.w.
what own Chrysler? or who owns Chrysler? well its now called fca fiat Chrysler America. fiat owns 49-51 percent. srt is on its own, ram on its own. I don't look into ownership somuch as the final ( faulty) product. but if you can put your head into working on them you will always have business until there are no more bailouts or until they just cannot compete anymore.
Wow this is an old video but a good one. Damn fine job Ivan! I got a problem 011 dodge van too. intermittent no crank. This video is some new direction for sure. This one starts to crank then stops after 2 seconds.
My 2007 Town & Country had a broken wire going to the transmission range control switch , gear selector was reading R and would not start .it was a pain in the ass with the wire diagram and tiipm to find.
Ivan, I discovered your channel 4 months ago and have become a regular follower of your diagnosis. I agree that the problem with this mini-van is the transmission range sensor switch T41/C1 has malfunctioned. Your work around of permanently grounding the wire from the PCM to switch T41/C1 is ingenious. My concern is that you might have inadvertently bypassed the neutral start safety function built into the system. Did you check to see if the starter would engage with the selector in the Reverse or Drive position? If yes this could be a potential safety issue.
+acarl1018 Great question. Surprisingly the only issue with the bypass in place was a fully lit PRNDL display and a P0706 DTC. The safety interlock worked perfectly! The bypass was just a temporary setup to verify the diagnosis and to be able to move the van. I guess the shop owner suggested the quick to the owner and they agreed to it...none of my business there :)
the computer thought it was in reverse with no problems when really it was in park so I guess no codes...but when it doesn't see the faulty switch opening when shifting through the ranges than it did throw the rationality code. Just my thought. I'm kind of surprised it works fine with the test light fix because that switch is permanent closed now.
+Joe Shearer Yeah go figure...it throws a code but actually works with the bypass installed, but throws no codes and doesn't shift or start as is. Someone really screwed the pooch on the self-diagnostic algorithm there!!
Ivan did you try another key from the owner of the vehicle. This vehicles have a big issue with Fob With Integrated Key (FOBIK) and the Wireless Ignition Node (WIN). One other thing is that the The Transmission Range Sensor (TRS) switches are grounded through the transmission case. If the case is not grounded well, the TRS sensor will not function correctly.
+Maic Salazar I think these Chryslers have a whole load of electronic issues in general...keeps me in business right? Good point on having a good ground. In this case the other three switches were working fine, so it's definitely a problem with the switch itself...probably just bad internal contacts.
So what you are saying is you fixed it with a paper clip and some duct tape ? Out smarted the computer diagnostics with 12 cents ...in parts ...:) ..great video
+motoYam82 I would have just rolled the "rebadged dodge" aka VW Routan down a hill into a tree and been done with it lol. But the customer probably would not have liked that.
Ivan, incredible diagnosis. I've noticed that the Verus almost always has useful troubleshooting tips and info. Had you considered using it instead of the Autel, or did you use the Autel for a reason? Regarding computers, it's ironic that the best way to navigate 10k and 5k dollar computerized scanners is with a freebie plastic pen! lol.
+Baxrok2 Thanks man! I usually grab the Autel first for an initial look, especially on a Euro vehicle...which this one wasn't really lol. I'm curious now if the Verus would have given any useful tips in the Troubleshooter; don't know if this a common issue or not.
this video makes me feel so bad. basic design idea, it is a faulty gear handle switch, usually no one will run wire for every single switch. let's say there are 4 switch for each gear, PRND, the minimum wire you need is only two, how? basic digital logic, 00=P 01=R 10=N 11=D, two bit can tell four status. the problem is there is a bad switch or wire, cause the second bit stuck on closed (1), then the only combinations you can have are 01 and 11 which are R and D open a multimeter, see how the mode and rage selector ring works
your t41/c1 etc. are trans gear range/and corresponding trans clutch pressure switches/solenoids. i.e. in 1st and 4th gear c1pressure switch is applied that is why all c1,2,3, and 4 are closed in park
+motoYam82 Honestly without seeing a hydraulic flow breakdown for this trans Im not sure. I think it might be related to the reverse clutch. often in trans w/solenoid applied clutches the solenoid for reverse will be the opposite of the others i.e. normally open vs normally closed
There is a common failure in these with symptoms like this is actually a broken wire in the PRNDL itself. I wonder if that was your issue rather than the range position switch since the display had all gear selections lit even when you had T41/C1 forced closed and in park and neutral. There's a 4 wire harness in the shifter assembly itself that jogs around a wire guide and that's where they tend to break internally. Also, these have a big chrysler sticker under the hood that they're made in their Canada plant so yup it's a T&C/Caravan with different badging.
+Agent22817 The display goes nuts once the computer figures out that my bypass wire doesn't change states when moving the selector. Problem is definitely in the range switch internal to the tranny. If you notice after erasing the codes the system is OK until you move the selector out of P...
+Nick Johnson I was afraid that was where this ordeal was going to end up...at least the connector on the tranny was right up top! Didn't even get the hands dirty on this one haha
hi hope you see this soon. question about this video is i have 2009 routan also with same issue except the prndl is fine. The block that you plug into that you use to bypass the main electriccal is opened how? you used test light and ended up being the qwik fix shortcut resolution. i cant get the box opened. cant figure how the clip unlatches? i know where it is just not how to pry it open? pls & ty for any help robert
Ivan, check out some cut outs from a doc. That number of ECU have increased overtime is nothing new, to see the actual numbers is interesting. Infinity went from 11 in 2006 to 34 in 2014. Jeep went from 7 in 2010 to 17 from 2014. Range Rover went from 41 in 2010 to 98 in 2014. Toyota Prius went from 23 in 2006 to 40 in 2014. The number of ECU in 2014 vehicles is from 19 in Dodge Viper to 98 Range Rover. Many many carbrands are not included, others you can look in this 92 page document. Black Hat have other money intentions ofcourse, screw that and look and se what you can make out of it. You got the link in PM. incase youtube deleting it:
That display was a Wikipedia of Pids .Great presence of mind to notice the switches.You are dead right when you say that most time is researching info.The idea behind "info poverty" is send it to the salvage yard and get this year's super model or else send it back to the main dealer where premium pricing is the order of the day, that's if it is less than 4 years old.It's all about sales.What's the point in buying a vehicle if it is too expensive to repair?
+Tom OConnor You are absolutely right. The kicker is that if the van was smart enough to set the P0607 "Trans Range Rationality" code to begin with, the OEM data actually gives you a flow chart with the correct combos of those dang switches!! It would have been a 10-minute diagnosis instead of a 2-hour head-scratcher. Basically the info was available, but hidden :) I find it really refreshing to work on older vehicles (pre-2005 maybe?) where there are less modules and less BS lol
So ,who are the guys that look at the logic Boolean and translate from It to the the real operation . Would love to see the compilation of all sources to the result on the scan tool???????
+motoYam82 I completely agree with that. I'm not totally up to date, but I have a Modis running 13.4 and AutoEnginuity up to 2013, but not the latest firmware for that tool, which I'll most likely get soon. I use the Modis mainly for the scope and troubleshooter (and pinouts, connector views, etc.) But, I will say that the other tool is quite good. In fact, having used IDS for Fords (limited use though), I can say that AE rivals that pretty close as far as bi-directional controls are concerned, and the number of manufacturer-specific PIDs available. Having said that, if, in the future, you start your videos out with burnouts or jumping out of the bed of a truck, I'm totally going to rat you out to Eric. LOL. Thanks for the vids, man. Keep it up.
Hi there, I got the camshaft sensor replaced bank 1 was towards the back on the right looking from the front of the vehicle. It turn on but only after pumping gas peddle a few with each attempt. when its on runs smooth like new and turns back on sometimes at first try. but the light came on a again after erasing it and code reader says "" P0340 $07E8 camshaft position sensor A circuit bank 1 or single sensor"" again I cant figure it out do you know why?
I like your repair style. haha VW vehicles aren't what they used to be, but why on earth would VW soil whats left of their good name by hoping into bed with Chrysler? Its like a lot of the Nissan's that are sold in the UK and European markets are basically just Renault vehicles now and have the same disastrous reliability. They cost an absolute fortune to repair as well. I remember when i was a lad and Nissan vehicles actually used to be good. Back in the day, we had so many classic golfs that were 10-20 years older or more knocking about on our roads when i was a lad as well as a few of the other models like the Corado that were also in that age range. The Mk 4 golfs were also pretty good. I know plenty of those with the 1.9 diesels that were scrapped at 250k/300k because the rest of the car was trashed. one guy i work with had one that had done 338k and he drove like a boy racer and it had only needed a few bushings, 2 clutches and an exhaust and usual consumables until he blew the gear box to pieces doing burn outs on the car park one night. If he hadn't driven it so hard, it would probably have gone round the clock for a few modest repairs.
+zoidberg444 We used to have a lot of Golfs running around back in the 90s as well. Those were very well built indeed. In fact I have a soft spot for vehicles from the 80s and 90s, both imports and domestics :)
When all of the PRND icons are lite up with the square boxes around all the letters on VW's doesn't that mean the car is in limp mode? The last '06 VW Passat i worked on that needed a transmission range sensor due to limp mode, all the PRDNL letters were boxed in red. During normal operation the letters are not highlighted. Did you test drive the car to see if it the trans was shifting properly and not taking off in 2nd gear like limp mode can cause?
+Ozzstar Van drove just fine! The display was lit up only in Neutral and Park, but caused no driveability problems. Keep in mind this isn't really a VW :)
cool, now when i see one on the road i know its a Dodge in disguise. I heard a guy start his VW Routan at the gas station today, i chuckled to myself when i heard how the starter motor has that distinct Chrysler sound!! haha Take care
+Ozzstar As Ivan said this van platform is really a Dodge Grand Caravan (engineered by Chrysler) and not a VW design. I looked at a factory service manual for a 2008 Dodge Avenger and the description and wiring diagram for the transmission range sensor for the Chrysler designed 62TE 6 speed automatic transaxle. It was an option on that model so the information I researched should be pertinent to this 2009 Routan / Dodge Grand Caravan. The transmission range sensor had a failed T41/C1 switch which would not close its circuit. The remaining switches T42/C2, T3/C3, and T1/C4 were functioning properly. Ivan grounded the CT41/C1 switch and with the correct rationality of the switches, got the starter to engage and run the engine. When he moved the selector position lever to D / drive the switch rationality expects the T42/C1 switch to be open but because of the hard wired bypass, it sends a closed signal to the PCM. So the rationality was invalid. But the transmission controller logic looks at the other 3 switches, determines that the T41/C1 sense is bogus, ignores it and uses other sensors to allow the vehicle to move forward. And it sends the proper signal to the PRNDL display so that D / Drive is shown. So I believe that is why the transmission controller did NOT put the vehicle into limp mode where only 2nd gear will engage. It was super smart! When you put the selector position lever in D / drive, there are 6 possible forward gear ratios possibilities. So the controller logic uses other sensors such as the transmission speed sensor to determine which gear ratio to select. Since the vehicle is not moving the controller selects and energizes the solenoid pressure switch associated with gear 1. As the vehicle moves, vehicle speed increases and the programmed logic selects the appropriate next gear. This seems to make sense to me. So the engineers have programmed a very smart transmission and to compensate in somewhat limited fashion to overcome incorrect inputs. But as Ivan said with all this sophistication, why could it not set a more definitive diagnostic code to help speed the diagnosis instead of leading the technician on a memory logic exercise. This is my interpretation of how the logic was applied. I do not have an inside track (wish I did) as to how the controller software is written.
Is there a possibility of the park neutral switch being the cause of the problem? Maybe the connection to it made the ground? I wonder if a vehicle this new could have have a park neutral switch. Could the linkage itself move out of its normal position?
bet you were wishing to be working on a ford or an import right about now ivan. yes fca ( dodge chrysler fiat) electronics are crap and have always been. as a chrysler tech, you may now feel a slight bit of my pain.
I have this exact problem with a 2014 Caravan, unfortunately I can't find the connector view of the transmission connector you t-pinned. I have access to Mitchell DIY for the vehicle but it just gives me the transmission circuit diagram. Have an old version of alldata but again, no useful info on anything newer than 2009.
also have no communication with TCM module. Checked all fuses and all is good, have 5 volts on the TCM connector. Can communicate with other modules fine.
I would have just told the customer what was the problem and the cost to fix it. I wouldn't have provided a customer with a cheap McGuyver fix. If he drives a VW van he should be able to fix it right. Can't afford to fix the van right, buy a cheaper van next time. The customer appears to not want to spend money on his euro van, he has a change oil warning which means he hasn't change the oil yet. Wonder how long he been driving with that message on the dash? I see this on other expensive car forums, like BMW, Porsche and Lotus. Owners can buy the car, but can't really afford to maintain the cars. Using Corvair axles on a Lotus, really?
+Upallnight This diag was for a shop; I don't even know who the actual owner is... Most likely cheap Russians who like to drive around in fancy cars :) I could have left it as "bad TRS switch", but was kind enough to show the shop owner how to temporarily start it and move it lol. Otherwise this thing was a beached whale. I'm kicking myself for not charging an extra hour for that "quick fix"!!
motoYam82 Well your talking to a former Soviet citizen, I know a thing or two about the Russian culture and people. Now if your a иуд that's a different story. But I don't think so, you seem like a nice man. People did what they had to do back in the soviet days to survive, things were f-ed up back then, especially in the caucuses. That doesn't make them cheap.
I have a 2010 Raton you have to step on the brake before you can shift the transmission into gear if you do not press the breakdown you cannot change the gears because it has a lockout keep you from shifting it well it is moving
Why make such a complicated system "wich does not necesserly mean smart", does this car need it? Doesn't it do things other cheaper, simpler car do as well? Maybe this type of technology is just an excuse for manifacturers to make cars that seems more valuable but that in time you certainly will throw away. Sorry for any typing error
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Ivan very impressive diagnosis. Your getting better and better kid. Love the fact how you respect scanner danner and Eric O. Both of my favorite repair guys.
You got that right. Ivan and Eric do get together at times
Yes i watch there channels and a few others really helps
Front probing and a test light! Oh man no wonder we get along so well! Great fix and diag Ivan! Junk Dodge euro trash haha
+South Main Auto Repair Let's just say Chrysler + Euro is a really bad combo LOL
Since he front probed with a test light, my car broke down, lights went out at the house and now North Korea are going to attack! You damned Cowboys!
+motoYam82 Chrysler and Chrysler is a bad combo!!!!
+Toyota Tech You know, front probing with a test light is a gateway drug to poking holes in wires with piercing tools. Just because the "cool kids" are doing it doesn't mean Ivan should. And if he has, that explains global warming.
Gotta admit I am addicted to my test light lol
Ivan, you have the patience and determination of a saint! Plus a huge helping of knowledge and intuition! I hope that some vehicle manufacturers will reverse the unnecessary complication of systems and build user (and mechanic) friendly vehicles.
Now I like my bare bone f250 with zf5 even more! It always works. Just passed 417k
It's amazing to me that they made the switch internal. Stuff like that is what is really annoying about new cars, and then it can't even tell you what's wrong! I'm sworn off Chrysler products for life after my dad's 2014 Grand Cherokee disaster, lol. Great job finding the problem!
+Jason Loesch Chryslers were ok until the mid 2000s when bad boy "Mr. TIPM" showed up and crashed the party!!
+motoYam82 mr tpm is the one to blame I had a similar vehicle (chry) come in for intermiten no start or long crank time an diagnosed it down to fuel pump relay and guess what ,is integrated in mr tipm
very expensive fix
great job btw
love your chanell, I learn a lot from you and mr. SMA aka Eric O.
in book book you guys are great technicians and are kind enough to share your knowledge with us.
thank you
Great diagnostics Ivan and you're right that todays cars are getting even more modules on vehicles. And of course, these things can turn into a nightmare. I worked on a Suzuki Forenza that had an issue with a tranny range sensor. As in your car, the ECM is looking for a unique combination of highs and lows (opens and closes) to determine which gear it's in. And that information is passed along to the instrument cluster to light the unique letter of the PRND. But it was strange that the ECM couldn't determine that the tranny switch was bad. Yet in your bypass test, it did see a rationality test that was wrong. Keep up the good work....
+stuzman52 Hey Terry, thanks for the comment! I am afraid to think what cars will be like even in the near future...you need to be an network communication specialist to have any chance of diagnosing those. Replacing "modules" can get very expensive very fast!
Was snooping around and came across this video which I have seen years ago! Was interesting t9 watch it again, Ivan! Hope it helps someone else.
It may be the main engine ground on the transmission not making a good connection, this van I had the bolt was about corroded off still holding ground wire on though if looked at. Cranked on the bolt broke entirely off! Rerouted and added wire to it over to a transmission bell housing bolt. Was doing all the same and codes your vehicle was doing. Everything went back to normal after repair
Interesting. But how would this van crank with a bad ground?
Here's when one wonders where is this modern technology going? .... Is all that computerised interaction crap really needed??? What was wrong with all transmission systems that we've had for years, that we had to computerise them? I'm officially old. Things were better in my time!! Great vid Ivan!
Nice Ivan, man id be lost on that one for sure, nice example of logical thinking. Keep em coming your doing fantastic.
Don't ya just love this sport? Good diagnosis. Good video on thinking out of the box and having some experience.
Thanks for your video my caravanagon is having an intermittent no crank problem too, shift selector works good though, you give me more to go on than I had before .still could be the park neutral switch or tr sensor. Thanks very much!
I don't know much about cars. I'm a mom of three who needed a good minivan. I owned Dodge Caravan and it was breaking down all the time (transmission). I swore to never buy Chrysler minivan again. What did I do? I bought 2009 VW Routan!! Few weeks into owning it I went online looking for tow capacity and Dodge information kept popping up. I refused to believe it so I looked under the hood and sure enough it said Chrysler. I am still almost 5 grands upside down on this car and it is barely drivable. I can't keep up with repairs - it is breaking down all the time. Never in my life would I imagine that by purchasing a VW at a VW Dealership I actually bought a Dodge with a VW sticker. I also can't believe I just watched this video. It was interesting seeing the process of diagnosing the problem.
Get a Toyota Sienna ;)
motoYam82 Ha! That's how I ended up on this video... I was watching some Sienna videos. Well, that's how it started. I am definitely considering Sienna.
Kudos to you Ivan you have a hairy set to even diagnose what you did without any data info, you are the Man Bro way to go! 😉👍🏾
I'm working on a 2006 grand caravan. The same switch circuit is malfunctioning. On the dodges, there is a shift lever position test. Autel shows codes for it. This one has code 1. It's not a p,b, or any type of normal code. Just code 1. I replaced the internal range range sensor thinking it was bad. It is on top of the valve body. There are wear marks on the shift plate where the sensor rubs against. Well, I guess I should have checked the wiring first. I need to check the wires next ,and make a temporary ground like what you did. Thanks for your tip.
I finished working on the van today. I ran the transmission shift lever position test and the code was #2. I looked at the live data and used my test light to ground the 4 different trans range sense circuit. Like you i had no change in the park/reverse circuit. I ohmed the wire and found an open. After tracing the wires, I found a broken wire at the range sensor plug end. There was a factory splice right at the connector. The splice came apart. Sadly, there was not room to repair the wire. So, at my shop, we have a scrap van that I was able to salvage the connector. The vehicle is back on the road!
your diagnoses is for sure correct, the last position it saw was reverse so thats why its staying in reverse, the neutral must use the same circuit inside of the PRNDL, i kinda feel bad for you guys these Fiat built Gem's are coming out of warranty so you will see more and more of them. i work on Gm's and i find there a lot easyer to work on then FCA
Remember when PRNDL was a needle pulled by a cable? I thought 500$ for my Routan was a good deal. You have the quality of a caravan but no parts available, no information and in Canada, I’ve had several mechanics say they don’t work on these. The transmission is faulty yet cannot be repaired, *intermittently* shows shift solenoid fault AND I tested resistance as normal. Resets by turning off and on again. Now it won’t start at times unless I change the gears a few times.
But hey, still a good deal for $500!!
well.....Donnie and Marie should sing a song called " I'm a little bit Mopar, I'm a little bit Euro trash". wait. ..I have a Mopar and a VW in my driveway, but they are separate. I'm showing my age with the Donnie and Marie comment. Anyway, great work Ivan.
I hear the sound of Millennials everywhere googling Donnie and Marie
Great diagnostic Ivan, to bad labour time was that expensive to bad to have such new car and can not afford real repair.
They should put more expensive parts in places like this that last longer.
When it comes to vw i up till now use to use Fred tdi page . I appreciate your videos . I always hear its never given any trouble, yea untill it does . I own a vw and a Dodge but not because of there great wiring ..
The problem is the neutral position ignition lock out for the PRND selector!
The part is either broken or not sensing N or P because it is out of adjustment. If it's using fero-magnetic technology then those magnets or sensors are cheapo made.
This is a really great video.
You were so close with the first test around minute 11 to 12 or so.
The ignition switch was saying it was in the correct positions.
I've seen this before with Saturn cars.
I honestly feel the didn't have an ignition issue.
It was probably the ignition lockout on the shift lever area.
BUT why didn't their top, factory mechanics and engineers said replace a few million ignition switches.
He nails it at 23:20...
I should call him. ;)
Good luck to all future readers of this post, there are many out there I can tell you.
Factory trained mechs at local VW shop wanted to replace starter. lol
Must have missed the moment where we found out that it wasn't the fault of the dash mounted range switch leading to the genuine transmission range selector switch at fault. But I trust your judgement on eliminating the cheaper of the two to fix. Wondering if the transmission switch could be swapped out during a standard transmission filter replacement with pan off? Not the typical DIY project but it might be doable just the same. Internally it could be a bad solder joint or bent contacts so fixing might be accomplished with a can of brake cleaner and tweaking with a pocket screwdriver? Just supposition here as I don't know enough beyond the possibilities, but Hiram Gutierrez would have a much better idea there - watch his videos and be amazed. Top drawer entertainment for me.
I missed that too, it wasn't obvious that this diagnosis determined the trans range sensor was faulty.
Nice jump from VW to Dodge. How do manufactures get away with this re-badging stuff? Crazy.Crazy too are the electronics. My gosh I think were going backwards. Nice work figuring that one out.
As a next step, could you put the ground end of your test lamp onto a switch...so that you could turn on/off your test probe connection and emulate what the computer WANTS to see from that input (and WHEN?) Might be very helpful....
That's a strange one in every way. Chrysler wasn't too bad until Mercedes got hold of it. They added some good qualities and made a huge mess of other things (the Mercedes ignition key) You got the problem patched at least but I think there was more to it because the shifter was stuck in park. Very nice job anyway, Ivan. I can't wait until we see what Fiat does to Chrysler.
+Mark J. Mantilla Actually I think I was wrong on that one. Musta been thinking about something else.
well chrysler has been bailed out twice now, they have the most recalls and now they are owned by a manufacturer which has been kicked out of america. try a grand cherokee with a german diesel in it, aussie lift with chevy ball joints, talk about an odd ball. truth is that dodge has always been about performance, not reliability or even safe for that matter. I am confident they have the most recalls plus who else makes a radio you can hack and take control of a vehicle remotely? there is a cut out in the dash to get the vehicle out of park manually b.t.w.
+chris keiley what owns Chrysler?
PumaBitez GM
what own Chrysler? or who owns Chrysler? well its now called fca fiat Chrysler America. fiat owns 49-51 percent. srt is on its own, ram on its own. I don't look into ownership somuch as the final ( faulty) product.
but if you can put your head into working on them you will always have business until there are no more bailouts or until they just cannot compete anymore.
This guy is a real technician!
In the past, I have found the switch logic table in the transmission rebuild manual.
Wow this is an old video but a good one. Damn fine job Ivan! I got a problem 011 dodge van too. intermittent no crank. This video is some new direction for sure. This one starts to crank then stops after 2 seconds.
My 2007 Town & Country had a broken wire going to the transmission range control switch , gear selector was reading R and would not start .it was a pain in the ass with the wire diagram and tiipm to find.
These cars are nightmares.. I have a 2011 routan won't start...one thing after another can't wait to get rid of it. Never again.
Ivan, I discovered your channel 4 months ago and have become a regular follower of your diagnosis. I agree that the problem with this mini-van is the transmission range sensor switch T41/C1 has malfunctioned. Your work around of permanently grounding the wire from the PCM to switch T41/C1 is ingenious. My concern is that you might have inadvertently bypassed the neutral start safety function built into the system. Did you check to see if the starter would engage with the selector in the Reverse or Drive position? If yes this could be a potential safety issue.
+acarl1018 Great question. Surprisingly the only issue with the bypass in place was a fully lit PRNDL display and a P0706 DTC. The safety interlock worked perfectly!
The bypass was just a temporary setup to verify the diagnosis and to be able to move the van. I guess the shop owner suggested the quick to the owner and they agreed to it...none of my business there :)
the computer thought it was in reverse with no problems when really it was in park so I guess no codes...but when it doesn't see the faulty switch opening when shifting through the ranges than it did throw the rationality code. Just my thought. I'm kind of surprised it works fine with the test light fix because that switch is permanent closed now.
+Joe Shearer Yeah go figure...it throws a code but actually works with the bypass installed, but throws no codes and doesn't shift or start as is. Someone really screwed the pooch on the self-diagnostic algorithm there!!
Ivan did you try another key from the owner of the vehicle. This vehicles have a big issue with Fob With Integrated Key (FOBIK) and the Wireless Ignition Node (WIN).
One other thing is that the The Transmission Range Sensor (TRS) switches are grounded through the transmission case. If the case is not grounded well, the TRS sensor will not function correctly.
+Maic Salazar I think these Chryslers have a whole load of electronic issues in general...keeps me in business right? Good point on having a good ground. In this case the other three switches were working fine, so it's definitely a problem with the switch itself...probably just bad internal contacts.
The cluster evic will display "wrong key" if the WIN module fails to recognize the FOBIK.
Hi, so you can now go to the orieleys website if you have a commercial account and they have wiring diagrams when you select the car
So what you are saying is you fixed it with a paper clip and some duct tape ?
Out smarted the computer diagnostics with 12 cents ...in parts ...:) ..great video
WIN = Wireless Immobiliser........key thingy! Laughed my head off.
Nice video Ivan, I love rebadged cars, makes me laugh!
Chrysler had a chance to die in 1980 and didn't. Thanks for nothing Lee.
When the change oil chime went off I thought you cursed and bleeped it haha.
+Jon Rushing LOL that's pretty funny man
+motoYam82 I would have just rolled the "rebadged dodge" aka VW Routan down a hill into a tree and been done with it lol. But the customer probably would not have liked that.
Ivan, incredible diagnosis. I've noticed that the Verus almost always has useful troubleshooting tips and info. Had you considered using it instead of the Autel, or did you use the Autel for a reason? Regarding computers, it's ironic that the best way to navigate 10k and 5k dollar computerized scanners is with a freebie plastic pen! lol.
+Baxrok2 Thanks man! I usually grab the Autel first for an initial look, especially on a Euro vehicle...which this one wasn't really lol. I'm curious now if the Verus would have given any useful tips in the Troubleshooter; don't know if this a common issue or not.
"75,000 Miles, 2009, it is too early to be breaking down".....You did say it was a Dodge right? I am surprised it made it to 75,000.
Great diagnosis Ivan.
this video makes me feel so bad. basic design idea, it is a faulty gear handle switch, usually no one will run wire for every single switch.
let's say there are 4 switch for each gear, PRND, the minimum wire you need is only two, how? basic digital logic, 00=P 01=R 10=N 11=D, two bit can tell four status.
the problem is there is a bad switch or wire, cause the second bit stuck on closed (1), then the only combinations you can have are 01 and 11 which are R and D
open a multimeter, see how the mode and rage selector ring works
i would not have left the bypass as a repair but to each their own $500 the van is worth the repair imo
Nice detective work!
your t41/c1 etc. are trans gear range/and corresponding trans clutch pressure switches/solenoids. i.e. in 1st and 4th gear c1pressure switch is applied that is why all c1,2,3, and 4 are closed in park
+Bryan Saunders Interesting...so why is T1/C4 open in Park (not malfunctioning)?
+motoYam82 Honestly without seeing a hydraulic flow breakdown for this trans Im not sure. I think it might be related to the reverse clutch. often in trans w/solenoid applied clutches the solenoid for reverse will be the opposite of the others i.e. normally open vs normally closed
There is a common failure in these with symptoms like this is actually a broken wire in the PRNDL itself. I wonder if that was your issue rather than the range position switch since the display had all gear selections lit even when you had T41/C1 forced closed and in park and neutral. There's a 4 wire harness in the shifter assembly itself that jogs around a wire guide and that's where they tend to break internally.
Also, these have a big chrysler sticker under the hood that they're made in their Canada plant so yup it's a T&C/Caravan with different badging.
+Agent22817 The display goes nuts once the computer figures out that my bypass wire doesn't change states when moving the selector. Problem is definitely in the range switch internal to the tranny. If you notice after erasing the codes the system is OK until you move the selector out of P...
You're awesome man, I thought I knew my stuff but I'm learning a lot from your channel. Cheers
I really appreciate that comment, Matthew! Learning never stops ;)
hi again it is the main comnecting box that houses the wiring for the prndl amd
start sequenc
starter wiring
I don't know if I ever would've noticed the C1 pid not closing. I would've had the dash apart chasing a bad shifter.
+Nick Johnson I was afraid that was where this ordeal was going to end up...at least the connector on the tranny was right up top! Didn't even get the hands dirty on this one haha
hi hope you see this soon. question about this video is
i have 2009 routan also with same issue except the prndl
is fine.
The block that you plug into
that you use to bypass the main electriccal is opened how? you used test light and ended up being the qwik fix
shortcut resolution.
i cant get the box opened.
cant figure how the clip unlatches? i know where it
is just not how to pry it open?
pls & ty for any help
robert
OMG THANK YOU! THIS VIDEO SAVED US!
Ivan, check out some cut outs from a doc.
That number of ECU have increased overtime is nothing new, to see the actual numbers is interesting.
Infinity went from 11 in 2006 to 34 in 2014.
Jeep went from 7 in 2010 to 17 from 2014.
Range Rover went from 41 in 2010 to 98 in 2014.
Toyota Prius went from 23 in 2006 to 40 in 2014.
The number of ECU in 2014 vehicles is from 19 in Dodge Viper to 98 Range Rover.
Many many carbrands are not included, others you can look in this 92 page document.
Black Hat have other money intentions ofcourse, screw that and look and se what you can make out of it.
You got the link in PM. incase youtube deleting it:
That display was a Wikipedia of Pids .Great presence of mind to notice the switches.You are dead right when you say that most time is researching info.The idea behind "info poverty" is send it to the salvage yard and get this year's super model or else send it back to the main dealer where premium pricing is the order of the day, that's if it is less than 4 years old.It's all about sales.What's the point in buying a vehicle if it is too expensive to repair?
+Tom OConnor You are absolutely right. The kicker is that if the van was smart enough to set the P0607 "Trans Range Rationality" code to begin with, the OEM data actually gives you a flow chart with the correct combos of those dang switches!! It would have been a 10-minute diagnosis instead of a 2-hour head-scratcher. Basically the info was available, but hidden :)
I find it really refreshing to work on older vehicles (pre-2005 maybe?) where there are less modules and less BS lol
So ,who are the guys that look at the logic Boolean and translate from It to the the real operation . Would love to see the compilation of all sources to the result on the scan tool???????
NERDS.
Yay! Ivan has a channel!
Another Scotty reference, huh? C'mon, man, don't let the dark-sunglasses-side sway you. See the LED of hope.
+Zack Brown For how crazy he is, he's right on the money about needing "high-level scantools" to troubleshoot modern vehicles for sure.
+motoYam82 I completely agree with that. I'm not totally up to date, but I have a Modis running 13.4 and AutoEnginuity up to 2013, but not the latest firmware for that tool, which I'll most likely get soon. I use the Modis mainly for the scope and troubleshooter (and pinouts, connector views, etc.) But, I will say that the other tool is quite good. In fact, having used IDS for Fords (limited use though), I can say that AE rivals that pretty close as far as bi-directional controls are concerned, and the number of manufacturer-specific PIDs available.
Having said that, if, in the future, you start your videos out with burnouts or jumping out of the bed of a truck, I'm totally going to rat you out to Eric. LOL. Thanks for the vids, man. Keep it up.
The suspense is killing me ! Was it the transmission range sensor ? Did that fix Volksaravan?
BB Industries no longer provides electrical diagrams, as of about Jan 2020.
Good job dude, good work!
Hi there, I got the camshaft sensor replaced bank 1 was towards the back on the right looking from the front of the vehicle. It turn on but only after pumping gas peddle a few with each attempt. when its on runs smooth like new and turns back on sometimes at first try. but the light came on a again after erasing it and code reader says "" P0340 $07E8 camshaft position sensor A circuit bank 1 or single sensor"" again I cant figure it out do you know why?
Very interesting.... vw similar to crysl ecu? I never would've guessed
maybe if you did an auto scan there maybe would of been a code?? in another module besides the pcm. not sure tho, good work
+phil holbrook Nope no codes anywhere. Just made the diag more fun right?
I like your repair style. haha
VW vehicles aren't what they used to be, but why on earth would VW soil whats left of their good name by hoping into bed with Chrysler? Its like a lot of the Nissan's that are sold in the UK and European markets are basically just Renault vehicles now and have the same disastrous reliability. They cost an absolute fortune to repair as well. I remember when i was a lad and Nissan vehicles actually used to be good.
Back in the day, we had so many classic golfs that were 10-20 years older or more knocking about on our roads when i was a lad as well as a few of the other models like the Corado that were also in that age range. The Mk 4 golfs were also pretty good. I know plenty of those with the 1.9 diesels that were scrapped at 250k/300k because the rest of the car was trashed. one guy i work with had one that had done 338k and he drove like a boy racer and it had only needed a few bushings, 2 clutches and an exhaust and usual consumables until he blew the gear box to pieces doing burn outs on the car park one night. If he hadn't driven it so hard, it would probably have gone round the clock for a few modest repairs.
+zoidberg444 We used to have a lot of Golfs running around back in the 90s as well. Those were very well built indeed. In fact I have a soft spot for vehicles from the 80s and 90s, both imports and domestics :)
Why is "No Crank No Start" a thing? if it don't crank well .....
Video very funny and well done
so can u show the quick fix and items used please & TY
well done Doctor motoYam82! =)
It sounds like it is integrated in the vats system.
When all of the PRND icons are lite up with the square boxes around all the letters on VW's doesn't that mean the car is in limp mode? The last '06 VW Passat i worked on that needed a transmission range sensor due to limp mode, all the PRDNL letters were boxed in red. During normal operation the letters are not highlighted. Did you test drive the car to see if it the trans was shifting properly and not taking off in 2nd gear like limp mode can cause?
+Ozzstar Van drove just fine! The display was lit up only in Neutral and Park, but caused no driveability problems. Keep in mind this isn't really a VW :)
cool, now when i see one on the road i know its a Dodge in disguise. I heard a guy start his VW Routan at the gas station today, i chuckled to myself when i heard how the starter motor has that distinct Chrysler sound!! haha Take care
+Ozzstar
As
Ivan said this van platform is really a Dodge Grand Caravan (engineered by
Chrysler) and not a VW design. I looked at a factory service manual for a 2008
Dodge Avenger and the description and wiring diagram for the transmission range sensor for the Chrysler designed 62TE 6 speed automatic transaxle. It was an option on that model so the information I researched should be pertinent to this 2009 Routan / Dodge Grand Caravan.
The transmission range sensor had a failed T41/C1 switch which would not close its circuit. The remaining switches T42/C2, T3/C3, and T1/C4 were functioning properly. Ivan grounded the CT41/C1 switch and with the correct rationality of the switches, got the starter to engage and run the engine.
When he moved the selector position lever to D / drive the switch rationality
expects the T42/C1 switch to be open but because of the hard wired bypass, it
sends a closed signal to the PCM. So the rationality was invalid. But the
transmission controller logic looks at the other 3 switches, determines that
the T41/C1 sense is bogus, ignores it and uses other sensors to allow the
vehicle to move forward. And it sends the proper signal to the PRNDL display so that D / Drive is shown. So I believe that is why the transmission controller did NOT put the vehicle into limp mode where only 2nd gear will engage. It was super smart!
When you put the selector position lever in D / drive, there are 6 possible forward gear ratios possibilities. So the controller logic uses other sensors such as the transmission speed sensor to determine which gear ratio to select. Since
the vehicle is not moving the controller selects and energizes the solenoid
pressure switch associated with gear 1. As the vehicle moves, vehicle speed
increases and the programmed logic selects the appropriate next gear. This
seems to make sense to me.
So the engineers have programmed a very smart transmission and to compensate in somewhat limited fashion to overcome incorrect inputs. But as Ivan said with all this sophistication, why could it not set a more definitive diagnostic code to help speed the diagnosis instead of leading the technician on a memory logic exercise.
This is my interpretation of how the logic was applied. I do not have an inside
track (wish I did) as to how the controller software is written.
Is there a possibility of the park neutral switch being the cause of the problem? Maybe the connection to it made the ground? I wonder if a vehicle this new could have have a park neutral switch. Could the linkage itself move out of its normal position?
Good job men.
Great video .
Great job.
how many subscriptions do you run Ivan? Snap-On, Alldata ? whats it all cost you?
Is there a way to bypass it permanently? and if this ever happens again is it safe to keep resetting?
Good video ! I hate Chrysler's
@motoYama82 what website did you use to pull up the wiring diagrams
Excellent video and diagnosis. Will this bypass left as is make the vehicle start in any gear(drive, reverse)?? Kind of dangerous..
+Freddy Soto Nope only starts in P and N :)
bet you were wishing to be working on a ford or an import right about now ivan. yes fca ( dodge chrysler fiat) electronics are crap and have always been. as a chrysler tech, you may now feel a slight bit of my pain.
In other words, R and R trans for a range sensor.. cute.
I have this exact problem with a 2014 Caravan, unfortunately I can't find the connector view of the transmission connector you t-pinned. I have access to Mitchell DIY for the vehicle but it just gives me the transmission circuit diagram. Have an old version of alldata but again, no useful info on anything newer than 2009.
also have no communication with TCM module. Checked all fuses and all is good, have 5 volts on the TCM connector. Can communicate with other modules fine.
try going just by wiring colors. But if it's a no-comm, first you need to scope the comm wires before condemning the TCM :)
Did you figure it out Chris c ? I’m having same issue with my 2014 Chrysler town and country
couldnt you disconnect the battery and then try it again?
the new christler town and country's have a reset bottom it shuts down all ignition when under power lines
first thing I noticed was its in "reverse"
How much is for an all data account? I tried once but I just couldn't log in lol
Amazing....
I would have just told the customer what was the problem and the cost to fix it. I wouldn't have provided a customer with a cheap McGuyver fix. If he drives a VW van he should be able to fix it right. Can't afford to fix the van right, buy a cheaper van next time. The customer appears to not want to spend money on his euro van, he has a change oil warning which means he hasn't change the oil yet. Wonder how long he been driving with that message on the dash?
I see this on other expensive car forums, like BMW, Porsche and Lotus. Owners can buy the car, but can't really afford to maintain the cars. Using Corvair axles on a Lotus, really?
+Upallnight This diag was for a shop; I don't even know who the actual owner is... Most likely cheap Russians who like to drive around in fancy cars :)
I could have left it as "bad TRS switch", but was kind enough to show the shop owner how to temporarily start it and move it lol. Otherwise this thing was a beached whale.
I'm kicking myself for not charging an extra hour for that "quick fix"!!
motoYam82 Okay, first of all Russians aren't cheap. Second, that's not a fancy car.
you're talking to one...and that is a Premium European vehicle, not a crappy Dodge Caravan lol
motoYam82 Well your talking to a former Soviet citizen, I know a thing or two about the Russian culture and people. Now if your a иуд that's a different story. But I don't think so, you seem like a nice man. People did what they had to do back in the soviet days to survive, things were f-ed up back then, especially in the caucuses. That doesn't make them cheap.
Welcome to Mopar whackamole
so what happen did they opt to get it replaced and did that fix
+Joe Nitta To the best of my knowledge they are still driving around with my "temporary bypass" solution haha
I have a 2010 Raton you have to step on the brake before you can shift the transmission into gear if you do not press the breakdown you cannot change the gears because it has a lockout keep you from shifting it well it is moving
Why make such a complicated system "wich does not necesserly mean smart", does this car need it? Doesn't it do things other cheaper, simpler car do as well? Maybe this type of technology is just an excuse for manifacturers to make cars that seems more valuable but that in time you certainly will throw away.
Sorry for any typing error
super great
Das Dodge.
Genius
$500-600 to fix and they call it expensive!!!!! You should send that car to vw Dealler just to get an estimate lol . However, good job !!!
What was the main problem? Mine does the same sometimes?
if it were easy , you would not be doing it . some of us are just built that way .
my daughter had a Hyundai and the would happen they changed out the brake light switch and it fixed it
I feel bad for anyone who bought these thinking they were a VW product.
Chrysler has gotten better, but these early 5th gen vans were junk.
I agree! There is no VW in that car that I can see oh apart from the steering wheel and maybe the seats.
+Steven Watson well i rather have a chrysler Product than ANY Euro POS VW
Go get Erica drb 3 that will read the park switch
And soon cars will be autonomous. God help us all!!!!