After I have identified myself as an INTj and watched all the INTJ youtube videos I feel like I'm finally at my right place or something. It's what I desperately longed for without even noticing the need.
as an INTJ I loved seeing the Ni/Fi really come out with them discussing the state of geopolitics/economics/etc.. after 20 minutes of this, 1:05:20 Joyce: "Yeah, it's great." 😂(sorry you had to endure that)
I think because Michael instinctively understands nihilism he can see it’s dangers. I once read Nietzsche was an INTJ. Also as a 4 enneagram I can understand a lot of this even though I’m not Ni dom.
It's interesting. I've watched a lot of INTJ videos and I could never quite find an INTJ who was similar to me because I tend to have an upbeat and very optimistic outlook. I also consider myself to be rather conversational and highly interpersonal (in small doses and when I make an effort to be). So to hear Holly in this video was amazing because I could relate to nearly EVERY single one of your mannerisms. Such as: 1. I will also come up with a great question or point, mention that I came up with a great point but I forgot, and usually solicit the other party to try to strike a word that will make me remember it. My mind works in that very organized and linear fashion, with lots of subtext "balloons" popping in my brain. 2. When I hear someone say something that is inaccurate I will do the same thing you did where I'll subtly ask the question in a very a non-aggressive and inquisitive manner to try to see if I can get the other party to reconsider or analyze something further. When there were clear differences between Holly and Michael and Joyce said, "INTJS seem so similar" you could immediately tell that Holly intuitively knew that to be inaccurate but also had the awareness and social skills to politely ask Michael if he agreed. 3. I also tend to smile and laugh a lot more and have a high degree of tone inflection changes like Holly does. 4. I'll also do that same gesture where I'll look up and rub my chin or stare off into space during a conversation and say, "Hmm....what was I thinking about. Oh! I remember." 5. Then lastly, the way we can jump from topic to topic and suddenly start ranting when we know a lot about economics, politics, and other topics. With that said, both INTJ 5w4 and INTJ 5w6 are going to have a ton in common, but that extra 6 versus 4 is very powerful in deciphering exactly which personality you are.
INTJ 5w6 but I also identify with Michael being drawn toward the dark side. Horror movies, true crime, cults, Depeche Mode, weirdos/outcasts, surrealist art, etc. I think 6 because I've had a lot of trauma, and it helps me to be as prepared as possible for when the crap inevitably hits the fan, because it will.
I resonated with Michael talking about the reality tv of politics and being on the outside of things watching... I feel we are on a fast moving train towards a wall.
Watching this a second time and Michael is just SO funny. He had me laughing throughout the entire time. And I caught some greater nuance on some of his points better this second time around too. I so appreciated all the insights and perspective he shared and would enjoy being on a panel with him again in the future if it ever fits into the plan for the channel. Thanks again to you both. 🙏🏼💛
You were an absolute delight to have on, Holly! I will definitely be inviting you to future panels. Thanks for the wonderful time. The amount of knowledge you possess always amazes me :)
I think many people would enjoy you two on another panel with Joyce. It seems like Joyce really was soaking up all of the convo and her questions were so immeshed into the conversation. 2nd time listening. Would love to hear thoughts on these topics a year later.
One thing that helped me settle into the fact that I might be an INTJ is that I feel the most comfortable in terms of not expecting myself to act and speak a certain way when I watch intwerviews/panels where predominantly INTJs are participating. I think there exists a strong sense of social obligation, especially towards female INTJs, to behave in a very accommodating and mirroring type of way which was very liberating to realise because thanks to that I can now bring myself to a stop and come back to what I actually am like. And what I am is a kind of detached, low on social energy INTJ 5w4 that hates having to pretend an emotion or expression. Thanks Joyce for allowing me and possibly many other people this chance and I hope you will create your content for a long while
INTJ 5w6 here. This will be interesting to watch 😁 I actually completely agree with Holly in terms of 5w6 relating more to Te and 5w4 relating more to Fi. I am Blast over Sleep, so even though I might feel artistic and creative at times, I am more level headed, practical and focused. For me, 5w6 is all about predictability, stability, rationality and accuracy. We like troubleshooting, and we like to help. The problem occurs when you see room for improvement in literally everything you see 😅 You correct people's grammer on the go, you become that annoying kid in class who would remind teacher of the assignment (yes I was that student) and you find faults with systems and try to tune them. That is not good perhaps.
oh wow. i'm INTJ 5w4 and i have a vivid memory of my childhood. not only meaningful but i can trace threads back to how i observed the world, when i first found i loved the feeling of my mind being active and analyzing a puzzle, how i discovered i could negotiate with my young brother to reach past his stubborn nature. and all this was well below the age of 7. hearing both say the past is vague was very surprising.
Im a INTJ 5w4 and so i felt more relatable to micheal but there were points where holly was talking where i found myself thinking yes i can relate to that on some leve aswell which i found quite interesting 🧐
Intj 5w4, Wonderful to hang out with my fellow intj 5’s and ponder on our wings. Insightful to hear about how we integrate to 7 or 8. 7 is my avarice most times and 8 is where i integrate when I’m ‘good’. Looking forward to more information consumption! Be well.
I loved the whole discussion revolving around self-actualizing and meditation being a luxury...because I agree, it is. (I'm an INTJ 5w4). And humanity can use that simple tenet for good or evil.
Very good conversation that is still relevant. As INTJ, I was very happy to be able to listen and relate to the reasoning that was made, still many questions open and that could be discussed forever. I definitely could relate to Michael's thinking surrounding Jordan Peterson - how seeking meaning has become so relevant in a materialistic world, where almost triviality today is worth gold, and also Holly's embrace of Eckhart Tolles teachings, I've found teaching of precense (perhaps more so as to being an INTJ) to be very useful on a personal level, and believe this to be the key to moving forward at this point in modern times.
I really enjoyed this talk! as an INTJ, it definitely helped solidify a lot of my questions about the 5w4 vs 5w6 and how they differ. I liked the contrast of 5w4s embracing pain and the discomfort of their fears vs. 5w6's actively trying to prepare to minimize the pain when their fears arise. although I'm a very artistic and creative individual, I do lean toward the 5w6 side. I relate much more to Holly being an optimistic, goody two shoes type of person who is just trying to do the right thing and prevent/be prepared for unpleasant situations. thanks for this awesome chat - was super interesting! sidenote: do you plan on doing an all 8 ennegeams video for INTJs? this would be super fascinating, but I'd imagine it may be hard to find certain types like 2's or 7's.
I would love to make an 'All Enneagram Types of ___ Type' video for as many types as possible! Except, most INTJs are 5s,1s or 8s. Happy you liked the talk, @BehindThe5!
For the longest time I mistyped as an INFJ but after doing more research I learned I am a highly sensitive person and an INTJ. So it’s like I have this weird balance and “war” between T and F that causes some inner turmoil. Discovering that I am an 5w4 only makes it more visceral 😅. I do identify with Michael in that everything I’ve always been interested in or the people I congregate with tend to rest on the outside of what’s socially cool or acceptable. I love horror movies and video games, the “dark” side of philosophy or psychology, write poetry, I even ghost hunt lol.
Michael's personality is very similar to my husband's personality! Favorite romance movie: "Remember me", favorite band: Nirvana. Little dark, yes. Also, Joyce, your smile is so beautiful. You guys did a great video
What I was reaching for at 44:50 is the Financial economy (the financial markets/stock market) vs the Real economy (the exchange of goods and services between people). It's important to understand the difference between them and how, when debt becomes too large in the real economy (think consumer/credit card debt, business or home loans, student loans, car loans, etc.), it drowns the economy and it crashes. This happens because the financial economy is a parasite on the real economy (e.g. sub-prime mortgages, savings and loan crisis, Global Financial Crisis, etc.).
Oh my goodness, I enjoyed that video so much! I've only taken one free personality test but I've been down a rabbit hole in the last few weeks watching all the RUclips content about INTJ's and I have never felt so understood before in my life. Joyce your videos are brilliant, it just warms my cold heart when you get the giggles! I watch any with Michael, Holly and Lijo in because it's always insightful and entertaining. 😍
@1:05:18 Michael had something to say, perhaps to add perspective to the conversation but decides not to. Perhaps out of politeness or pointlessness. :) . If it's true there are plenty of other subtle and nuanced cues in this video. @58:30 Such a Fantastic point. Michael's Fi/passion turns up here because he can see limits of this specific yet omnipresent brand of materialism.
I don't fully agree with his statement. Tech and science will bring us closer to a post scarcity society. Then we all can do art and entertainment full time without worrying about current duality of life (i.e. work or play). Then it will just be work to play or just play to play where people can do whatever they please to give them meaning instead of also worrying about social responsibilities like in this contemporary time.
I think this was very interesting conversation. I agreed with a lot of the points that both Holly and Michael brought up and not just about being an INTJ but also about the world in general. I definitely agree about the incorporations and appreciation of the Arts and Humanities in a similar manner as to the sciences. I think an integrated approach is needed if we truly want all of human needs met. One thing I'd disagree with is the point about the sciences being disconnected from spirituality. Research in science certainly requires an intuitive approach and has an spiritual side to it which becomes more obvious when you study the scientists of the old. Over the last 100 years, there has been a very simplistic view on science that has been pushed that it is based on cold-hard facts which isnt always the case and alot of the time these facts change with time and more information.
I found this video to be very insightful and informative. I can so identify with intj-5w4, right down to the fi self-expression. Love the way Holly express the anger that raise up in a unhealthy 5, and the need to go to 8 health way of expressing anger. Physical release of the fi is so very important. I don’t think fi need to meditate, but need to become physical active, gardening, drawing, painting, anything that involves getting out of the mind and presence with body physical activities. ❤️🙏👍
okay, that's just pretty cool :) , this is the second time I watched the whole video without speeding it up or anything=))) just enjoying.. That's just like talking to myself enjoying my own thoughts but it's real , not only in my head:')
Magnesium are used as a treatment for bipolar disorder (for the hyper stage), so it does make sense. P.S. don't know if I've used "hyper stage" correctly, but I think you can get what I'm saying.
INTJ Type 5, I identify with both 4 & 6 wings and have been tested with both results. Listening to Holly and Michael and being to relate to them both - it's like they're a part of me.
Oooo Michael I loved seeing this energy from you. You and I are very similar and I'd love to have a chat with you one day. I get the sense we would talk for hours. I really liked you before but now I like you even more because you referenced Sam Harris. Not many people I talk to even know who he is. I'd be curious to know what your thoughts are on what intellectuals like Sam Harris has said in the past about any topic of your choice.
@@JoyceMeng22 Hey, I just discovered your channel, and have been binge-watching literally almost all of them! We also became Twitter mutuals just now. Lemme know if you're ever in need of a female ENTP to interview :)
Thank you Michael for bringing up the Meaning Crisis. Vervaeke's series "Awakening from the Meaning Crisis" helped me find God and realize that God is experiential
Wow, I just had the craziest synchronicity... While listening to a video of Richard Rohr, as I was journaling about whether or not today has been "productive" in my exploration of cognitive functions and enneagram, I heard him say my name within 3 seconds of finishing the sentence I typed.
@ 42:34 Michael you're funny. "Can we argue with the Enneagram? I don't know." As a 5 we keep to ourselves, often isolate, and minimize our needs from life. At times as a means to avoid unnecessary energy expenditure. Going toward 8 helps to engage more with expression(s) of what we think. A more forward oriented focus that stems from feeling OK with the knowledge currently known. Sometimes driven by an irritation at whatever, where it got to the point of speaking up. I picture disintegrating toward 7 as having some similarities to being in a "loop" or "grip". Actions and thoughts can get more erratic. Over indulgence with things. Sometimes it's engaged in a healthier way through various formats as being humorous.
I'm an INTJ 5w6. I would love to see a video about how Michael and Holly view where the economy is going in more depth. It's hard finding people that are interested in this subject to bounce ideas off of in a future perspective/historical way. I see people viewing me a little like I'm chicken little "The sky is falling". It would be nice to hear other INTJ's perspectives to make me feel less like a crazy person. The only person willing to hop on this crazy train with me is my INFP 9w1 partner. Poor guy =) lol Questions: How do you view this covid-19? Do you think covid is a real thing or a cover for something? I noticed once covid was brought up, the subject was changed to the economy pretty quick. That got me a little curious if Holly and Michael thought there was more to this. Where do you see the real economy/ fake economy going in the next 5 -10 years? Are you guys into crypto? I know this channel is more about MBTI/Enneagram, so this channel is probably not the place for this type of video. If Michael, Holly, and other INTJ's would like to make a video on these subjects. Please send me a link to the video. I would love to see it. Joyce, Love your videos =)
@@dazydream123 Come to think of it though, I agree it would be fun but Joyce's channel really doesn't overlap much with macroeconomics so I'm thinking it won't align too well with her goals.
@@hfortenberry I agree. I haven't found my way over to look at Michael's channel yet but I am planning on checking it out. If you ever decide to start a channel that is more open to macroeconomics. Post me a link to your channel on this thread and I will subscribe. No pressure =)
Ah, there's truly a bit of masochist in all 4s, Fi or no Fi 🙃 I think deep down it's understood that suffering builds character and creates meaning. 5w4 (INTP); I live in a part of California that was basically surrounded by fire not long ago. When the wildfires were raging, I wanted to drive up into the mountains and get as close to the fire as possible (seriously, a once in a lifetime opportunity!). My boyfriend, who I'm pretty certain is a 6, seemed genuinely disturbed by my fascination and called me morbid (which I accept readily; the 4 wing in me revels in being called weird). I have a theory about differentiating 5s and 6s, albeit based mostly on anecdotal observation, that I'm kind of curious now about if it holds true at all for a 6-wing (and also wondering if my 4-wing plays a role). I have noticed that any time in my life I fear something specific, learning more about that thing pretty much always dispels my fear. Knowledge is power, and familiarity evaporates any fog of the unknown. However, I have noticed that with 6s I've known, when they learn more about something they fear, it just seems to provide the fodder for continuing to rationalize distrust of that thing and all the more reasons to fear it. Maybe this isn't true for all 6s, but it seems to be among those I've known. I'm just curious if the 5w6s can relate at all vs solid 6s, or if it's simply a 5 trait to be empowered by knowledge, even with the 6 influence on safety and security.
For me, as a 5w6, whether or not learning makes me feel better or worse really depends on the essence of thing. If what I am learning is showing me there is something to fear such as hunkering in place when a Cat 5 hurricane is headed right for you, then learning more about what a Cat 5 can do will definitely instill a healthy fear that makes me run for cover. But often learning more about something makes me feel better. For example, my ex and I back in the early 2,000s found a puppy out on the highway and brought her home. Six months later she started growing up and we realized we had a pit bull on our hands and we became a little scared of her. I was not going to allow that though so I started researching the breed like crazy and what I learned was such good information and my fears evaporated. She was a beautiful, sweet dog until the day she died. For me, I actually don't think I have irrational fears. I just tend to prefer to be geared toward prevention as it just seems the best way to conserve my energy.
One little funny story about picking the fastest route throughout the house idea. I routinely will walk as close to walls as I can to cut a sharper corner. It saves me milliseconds a day. I mean I'm literally missing them by like an inch. Problem is when I'm sick, my reactions are more sluggish, and so then my shoulders often will catch those walls, so I have to use a different routine when I'm sick.
1:02:45 “The light of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is single , your whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!” - Matthew 6: Not that I speak in respect of want: “for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.” - Philippians 4 “Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.” - Matthew 6
I’m wondering whether the healthy “you stress” concept is also from a 6 perspective , seeing as your inclination is to operate on that level anyway (not sure), so it can be a positive, other enneagram types might not share that view, it sounds kind of subjective to me.
I don't know exactly why I found Michael's comment at 44:12 humorous. "Vaccine politics" LOL I guess it's the sheer absurdity that we are now in an era where our nation has made even vaccines political. You'll laugh to keep from crying.
@@Countertype Hi Michael! :-) The sad (?) thing is that I too have entertained one or two of these notions. But this one is ridiculous regarding RNA: "Moderna. Mod rna. It's right there in the name if people will open their eyes." LOL ...but what if it's true???
57:18 I don’t understand how Michael can say he has dark Fi with this type of value system? Seems pretty spot on, realistic and honest (light) values. Imho. If that’s dark, then I am color blind. It’s recognizing dark, but the value isn’t (to me). 1:30:05 Nah, ENFP 5w4 (leaning on Fi) hard relates, except to the year prep., that being the P-side of things, doncha know.....
I’m a 5w4 and the morbid thing is so real. Death, blood, serial killers- the more brutal, the better. It’s been that way since I was a small child. Metal is the music of my soul. I feel so seen. Lol
@@Countertype Thanks for the link. I listened to it and realized that I probably do relate to you musically more than came across. I just had to throw on some Front 242 Headhunter. I LOVED bands like Nirvana, Front 242, Ministry and Nine Inch Nails and was extremely into electronic, EBM and industrial/house music in the late 80's early 90's. I still have all those cassette tapes (cassettes lol). Then again I also love country, The Smiths, Enja, Tracy Chapman, Sarah Brightman, etc.. That's all old school because I had more time for music back then. But I pretty much love everything except super screamo. Some screaming is good though. :-)
@@JoyceMeng22 Hot diggity! Thought it was just all that rap music that had me money hungry lol. Thank you for taking the time to reply. I appreciate you and your in-depth knowledge. :)
5w6 are into science and with the 6w they can be the devils advocate 5w4 are drawn to the arts and are idiosyncratic .5's are very autonomous they don't want to rely on their parents or anyone else . 5's are ambivalent towards their parents . I had quite a bit of Enneagram books which also talks about their relationship the types have with their parents . 6's have a strong bond with their dad's .I love the INTJ'S they bring a good amount of humor and their wealth of knowledge .
About ennegram type 5 not being Ok to be comfortable in the world I think It is simply pure truth I'm myself a 5w6 INTJ and seriously no matter how rich i will be i wann't allow myself to look or behave like a richman. I never accept my parent or friend to give me a gift. i refuse to have a kids until the world become a better place for everyone I insist on the EVERYONE. When something good happen to me i don't feel like i deserve it when a whole bunch of people are just crying hell somewhere else in the world. I have a hard time to feel pleasur as this planète look like a silly place like i''m not from earth. Everything look awkward, vastly enefficient and unfair. But people seem to like and follow this broken civilisation. From time to time i can accept myself to have a rest if i feel like i have done a lot for others.Aside from that i run like a glider plane with very little needs ...
Enjoyed this! That's an interesting point about being drawn to troublemakers vs being the goody two shoes teacher's pet. Also natural pessimism vs optimism. I wonder if that w4 vs w6 difference holds true for others. I thought I might be 5w4 but I relate more to Holly on those counts.
as an entp i identify with 4 very strongly! but i don't identify with 5 or 3 and apparently you have to choose adjacent numbers in enneagram for some reason which i am sure has no ti foundation whatsoever. anyways, when people call 4s selfish and when they say "oh why do you have to be special are you a snowflake" etc. i always say this: greatest art piece you will ever create is your personality. why don't you want to be special? why don't you want to be different? are you afraid others will call you a snowflake? then you definitely should blend in and be a nobody and project your insecurity to those who can dare to be authentic! since when being bland and ordinary is better than different? stay wierd! why do we try to create new music or paintings or dance styles or whatever if our personalities even doesn't worth an artistic touch? then nothing worths nothing! isn't that just depressive? society needs individuals and wierdos and neurotics. in fact those are the ones who shape the history of the world. not soldiers of te and fe. fi and ti will question the status quo. te and fe will serve it because serving status quo almost always brings guaranteed mini success. following the tribe, you can't be better than the tribe. as simple as that. legendary success comes from the wierd and unexpected and unconventional and individualistic! but legendary fail also comes from that.
@@windureborn3292 Yeah that part about comment replies on youtube is quite unclear. I do not get lots of notifications either when people reply. I think I only seem to get notifications if the browser that people use puts the @ thing there at the start, but I am not even sure of that. I am not even sure why half of the time it does put that @ and of the time it does not. I used to have a browser that does not do that and now I have a browser that does that half of the time. However, apparently half of this issue is apparently account related? Maybe if one has lots of messages on youtube, it starts to disfunction? I am not sure Also, did you know Kurtis made a video about you missing?
@@PowerRedBullTypology i made a comment under his video but it most probably go into his "possible spam" thing as it has multiple swearwords and a youtube link. as for notification thing, i was never getting notification for replies. youtube was notifying me when comment got a heart though. and randomly, i was getting notified for some likes too. but it would make sense for youtube to stop notifying you when you have a million comments around the youtube.
5w4, 8. Also listen to noise, and take comfort in extreme music. Same for visual art. But it’s required to meet a certain height of taste. There’s lots of corny ‘mall’ metal and the like that I find intolerable. I think a lot of that stuff is made by extroverts and it’s gratingly attention seeking and unrefined.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
After I have identified myself as an INTj and watched all the INTJ youtube videos I feel like I'm finally at my right place or something. It's what I desperately longed for without even noticing the need.
Me too :)
Hahahaha Why did I laugh so hard when Michael said, "Dark warm blanket"? 5w4 here.
That’s why I like moody, cloudy days. 😌
as an INTJ I loved seeing the Ni/Fi really come out with them discussing the state of geopolitics/economics/etc.. after 20 minutes of this, 1:05:20 Joyce: "Yeah, it's great." 😂(sorry you had to endure that)
I think because Michael instinctively understands nihilism he can see it’s dangers. I once read Nietzsche was an INTJ. Also as a 4 enneagram I can understand a lot of this even though I’m not Ni dom.
Nietzsche was definitely an INTJ! Interesting point you have there about nihilism, Bouke.
Enneagram type 5 wings as elements
4-Water
6-Earth
It's interesting. I've watched a lot of INTJ videos and I could never quite find an INTJ who was similar to me because I tend to have an upbeat and very optimistic outlook. I also consider myself to be rather conversational and highly interpersonal (in small doses and when I make an effort to be). So to hear Holly in this video was amazing because I could relate to nearly EVERY single one of your mannerisms.
Such as:
1. I will also come up with a great question or point, mention that I came up with a great point but I forgot, and usually solicit the other party to try to strike a word that will make me remember it. My mind works in that very organized and linear fashion, with lots of subtext "balloons" popping in my brain.
2. When I hear someone say something that is inaccurate I will do the same thing you did where I'll subtly ask the question in a very a non-aggressive and inquisitive manner to try to see if I can get the other party to reconsider or analyze something further. When there were clear differences between Holly and Michael and Joyce said, "INTJS seem so similar" you could immediately tell that Holly intuitively knew that to be inaccurate but also had the awareness and social skills to politely ask Michael if he agreed.
3. I also tend to smile and laugh a lot more and have a high degree of tone inflection changes like Holly does.
4. I'll also do that same gesture where I'll look up and rub my chin or stare off into space during a conversation and say, "Hmm....what was I thinking about. Oh! I remember."
5. Then lastly, the way we can jump from topic to topic and suddenly start ranting when we know a lot about economics, politics, and other topics.
With that said, both INTJ 5w4 and INTJ 5w6 are going to have a ton in common, but that extra 6 versus 4 is very powerful in deciphering exactly which personality you are.
INTJ 5w6 but I also identify with Michael being drawn toward the dark side. Horror movies, true crime, cults, Depeche Mode, weirdos/outcasts, surrealist art, etc. I think 6 because I've had a lot of trauma, and it helps me to be as prepared as possible for when the crap inevitably hits the fan, because it will.
I resonated with Michael talking about the reality tv of politics and being on the outside of things watching... I feel we are on a fast moving train towards a wall.
Watching this a second time and Michael is just SO funny. He had me laughing throughout the entire time. And I caught some greater nuance on some of his points better this second time around too. I so appreciated all the insights and perspective he shared and would enjoy being on a panel with him again in the future if it ever fits into the plan for the channel. Thanks again to you both. 🙏🏼💛
You were an absolute delight to have on, Holly! I will definitely be inviting you to future panels. Thanks for the wonderful time. The amount of knowledge you possess always amazes me :)
Thank you Holly for mentioning magnesium for anxiety.
I think many people would enjoy you two on another panel with Joyce. It seems like Joyce really was soaking up all of the convo and her questions were so immeshed into the conversation. 2nd time listening. Would love to hear thoughts on these topics a year later.
One thing that helped me settle into the fact that I might be an INTJ is that I feel the most comfortable in terms of not expecting myself to act and speak a certain way when I watch intwerviews/panels where predominantly INTJs are participating. I think there exists a strong sense of social obligation, especially towards female INTJs, to behave in a very accommodating and mirroring type of way which was very liberating to realise because thanks to that I can now bring myself to a stop and come back to what I actually am like. And what I am is a kind of detached, low on social energy INTJ 5w4 that hates having to pretend an emotion or expression. Thanks Joyce for allowing me and possibly many other people this chance and I hope you will create your content for a long while
INTJ 5w6 here. This will be interesting to watch 😁
I actually completely agree with Holly in terms of 5w6 relating more to Te and 5w4 relating more to Fi. I am Blast over Sleep, so even though I might feel artistic and creative at times, I am more level headed, practical and focused.
For me, 5w6 is all about predictability, stability, rationality and accuracy. We like troubleshooting, and we like to help. The problem occurs when you see room for improvement in literally everything you see 😅 You correct people's grammer on the go, you become that annoying kid in class who would remind teacher of the assignment (yes I was that student) and you find faults with systems and try to tune them. That is not good perhaps.
"The problem occurs when you see room for improvement in literally everything....." OMG, YES!! You are channeling me right now. LOL
@@hfortenberry OMG you replied lol. Well, yes, it is a problem. Unfortunately, I have learned it the hard way a couple of times.
@@syedmazharhasan6803 Me too!
oh wow. i'm INTJ 5w4 and i have a vivid memory of my childhood. not only meaningful but i can trace threads back to how i observed the world, when i first found i loved the feeling of my mind being active and analyzing a puzzle, how i discovered i could negotiate with my young brother to reach past his stubborn nature. and all this was well below the age of 7. hearing both say the past is vague was very surprising.
Your si is quite high then. Intp?
Im a INTJ 5w4 and so i felt more relatable to micheal but there were points where holly was talking where i found myself thinking yes i can relate to that on some leve aswell which i found quite interesting 🧐
she is also an intj 5 so obviously you will still have similarities with her. I am also an intj 5w4 and I had the same experience watching this
Intj 5w4, Wonderful to hang out with my fellow intj 5’s and ponder on our wings. Insightful to hear about how we integrate to 7 or 8. 7 is my avarice most times and 8 is where i integrate when I’m ‘good’. Looking forward to more information consumption! Be well.
I don't know how I forgot to mention this at 1:16:30 but my Grandmother, with whom I'm extremely close, is also an ISFJ.
Thanks for giving your time to this episode, I’m not an INTJ but you guys are both amazing, really smart and non-conformist, is my impression.
@@hirsch4155 Thank you for the kind words. Yeah, we are definitely non-conformist. :-) And it's super fun chatting with Joyce and Michael.
I loved the whole discussion revolving around self-actualizing and meditation being a luxury...because I agree, it is. (I'm an INTJ 5w4). And humanity can use that simple tenet for good or evil.
Very good conversation that is still relevant. As INTJ, I was very happy to be able to listen and relate to the reasoning that was made, still many questions open and that could be discussed forever. I definitely could relate to Michael's thinking surrounding Jordan Peterson - how seeking meaning has become so relevant in a materialistic world, where almost triviality today is worth gold, and also Holly's embrace of Eckhart Tolles teachings, I've found teaching of precense (perhaps more so as to being an INTJ) to be very useful on a personal level, and believe this to be the key to moving forward at this point in modern times.
Omg this was so relaxing and enjoyable. I could hear them talk forever. Now I see why they say my type (ENFPs) should get along with INTJs.
Really looking forward to this. We love to see INTJs of other enneagram types since I am a 1w9.
I really enjoyed this talk! as an INTJ, it definitely helped solidify a lot of my questions about the 5w4 vs 5w6 and how they differ. I liked the contrast of 5w4s embracing pain and the discomfort of their fears vs. 5w6's actively trying to prepare to minimize the pain when their fears arise. although I'm a very artistic and creative individual, I do lean toward the 5w6 side. I relate much more to Holly being an optimistic, goody two shoes type of person who is just trying to do the right thing and prevent/be prepared for unpleasant situations. thanks for this awesome chat - was super interesting! sidenote: do you plan on doing an all 8 ennegeams video for INTJs? this would be super fascinating, but I'd imagine it may be hard to find certain types like 2's or 7's.
I would love to make an 'All Enneagram Types of ___ Type' video for as many types as possible! Except, most INTJs are 5s,1s or 8s.
Happy you liked the talk, @BehindThe5!
For the longest time I mistyped as an INFJ but after doing more research I learned I am a highly sensitive person and an INTJ. So it’s like I have this weird balance and “war” between T and F that causes some inner turmoil. Discovering that I am an 5w4 only makes it more visceral 😅. I do identify with Michael in that everything I’ve always been interested in or the people I congregate with tend to rest on the outside of what’s socially cool or acceptable. I love horror movies and video games, the “dark” side of philosophy or psychology, write poetry, I even ghost hunt lol.
Can we be friends? I could have written this. Highly sensitive thought I was INFJ for years...now realizing I've been an INTJ all along!
Hope to see more fellow 5w4 discussions. Discussing how powers need to incorporate culture is my fave point
Gosh these people are my mind tribe
Michael's personality is very similar to my husband's personality! Favorite romance movie: "Remember me", favorite band: Nirvana. Little dark, yes. Also, Joyce, your smile is so beautiful. You guys did a great video
Thanks, Ey Niit! 🙂
I love listening to the INTJs, so much good advice :-)
:) absolutely!
What I was reaching for at 44:50 is the Financial economy (the financial markets/stock market) vs the Real economy (the exchange of goods and services between people). It's important to understand the difference between them and how, when debt becomes too large in the real economy (think consumer/credit card debt, business or home loans, student loans, car loans, etc.), it drowns the economy and it crashes. This happens because the financial economy is a parasite on the real economy (e.g. sub-prime mortgages, savings and loan crisis, Global Financial Crisis, etc.).
Most common enneagram types for INTJ's seem to be 5's & 8's ; with 1's being second. (I'm a 1w2)
Yeah, I scored high on 8 and 1 as well. I actually scored higher on 8 than my 6 wing.
Holly, my enneagram results are quite similar. - INTJ 5w6
On the same note, hearing you speak was like listening to or watching myself interact. Ha!
Most common are 5, 8, 1 and 3. I'm an 351. I've seen most often 581s and 583s
I love this two INTJ's. I identify with them a lot. Thank you for your videos, Joyce.
You are so welcome! Glad you like them! :)
Oh my goodness, I enjoyed that video so much! I've only taken one free personality test but I've been down a rabbit hole in the last few weeks watching all the RUclips content about INTJ's and I have never felt so understood before in my life. Joyce your videos are brilliant, it just warms my cold heart when you get the giggles! I watch any with Michael, Holly and Lijo in because it's always insightful and entertaining. 😍
Haha so good. When people think 30min -1hr of alone time is a lot I just smile :) 4 + hrs a day please
4+ hours of alone time is absolute heaven to my ears
This is very interesting so far 👍🏼 i like this enneagram series
I'm glad you're enjoying it, Hannah!!
Anyone else see a similar face structure in these two intj’s?
Yes was going to say that, they look like long lost twins!
@1:05:18 Michael had something to say, perhaps to add perspective to the conversation but decides not to. Perhaps out of politeness or pointlessness. :) . If it's true there are plenty of other subtle and nuanced cues in this video.
@58:30 Such a Fantastic point. Michael's Fi/passion turns up here because he can see limits of this specific yet omnipresent brand of materialism.
I don't fully agree with his statement. Tech and science will bring us closer to a post scarcity society. Then we all can do art and entertainment full time without worrying about current duality of life (i.e. work or play). Then it will just be work to play or just play to play where people can do whatever they please to give them meaning instead of also worrying about social responsibilities like in this contemporary time.
Yeah, when I watched this video later, I thought that I wished we'd delved more into what he was saying. It's good stuff!
@@timandersen8030 That would be nice. I admit the thought has crossed my mind. :-)
I think this was very interesting conversation. I agreed with a lot of the points that both Holly and Michael brought up and not just about being an INTJ but also about the world in general. I definitely agree about the incorporations and appreciation of the Arts and Humanities in a similar manner as to the sciences. I think an integrated approach is needed if we truly want all of human needs met. One thing I'd disagree with is the point about the sciences being disconnected from spirituality. Research in science certainly requires an intuitive approach and has an spiritual side to it which becomes more obvious when you study the scientists of the old. Over the last 100 years, there has been a very simplistic view on science that has been pushed that it is based on cold-hard facts which isnt always the case and alot of the time these facts change with time and more information.
Rodelle, I 100% agree. I wanted to go into the science aspect more during the video but got distracted. Maybe next time! :-)
@@hfortenberry Great! Hoping to hear more from you in future videos on it :)
I found this video to be very insightful and informative. I can so identify with intj-5w4, right down to the fi self-expression. Love the way Holly express the anger that raise up in a unhealthy 5, and the need to go to 8 health way of expressing anger. Physical release of the fi is so very important. I don’t think fi need to meditate, but need to become physical active, gardening, drawing, painting, anything that involves getting out of the mind and presence with body physical activities. ❤️🙏👍
okay, that's just pretty cool :) , this is the second time I watched the whole video without speeding it up or anything=))) just enjoying..
That's just like talking to myself enjoying my own thoughts but it's real , not only in my head:')
Magnesium are used as a treatment for bipolar disorder (for the hyper stage), so it does make sense.
P.S. don't know if I've used "hyper stage" correctly, but I think you can get what I'm saying.
INTJ 5w6
I'm a INTJ 5w4 but i related to everything Holly said too. However the biggest aspect of the 5w4 i relate to is tendency towards creativity.
I really enjoyed the new intro
Thank you!! Michael made it. He makes them look so professional, it astounds me! :)
INTJ Type 5, I identify with both 4 & 6 wings and have been tested with both results. Listening to Holly and Michael and being to relate to them both - it's like they're a part of me.
Loved the video. Please make more videos with more INTJs together.
I really enjoy these INTJ videos. Thank you
Oooo Michael I loved seeing this energy from you. You and I are very similar and I'd love to have a chat with you one day. I get the sense we would talk for hours. I really liked you before but now I like you even more because you referenced Sam Harris. Not many people I talk to even know who he is. I'd be curious to know what your thoughts are on what intellectuals like Sam Harris has said in the past about any topic of your choice.
Relatable topics being discussed on this panel. I can identify with ennegram 5. Wondering how attachment style correlates to enneagram type?
Good Q! I'm guessing most 5s are avoidant attachment style 🙂
Incredibly interesting how similar these two are. And how extremely good examples each of them is of their subvariation.
Yes! They are quite similar, down to their facial characteristics. Thanks for watching, Justine! :)
@@JoyceMeng22 Hey, I just discovered your channel, and have been binge-watching literally almost all of them! We also became Twitter mutuals just now. Lemme know if you're ever in need of a female ENTP to interview :)
I like the new intro!
Me too :) Michael nailed it when making the intro!
Holly, thank you for mentioning Richard Rohr! His work seems very interesting :D
Thank you Michael for bringing up the Meaning Crisis. Vervaeke's series "Awakening from the Meaning Crisis" helped me find God and realize that God is experiential
LMAOOO THE DISHES!!! CHOIRS!!! THE SHOWER TILES!!! MY WORST ENEMY!!! I've been improving though since I've picked up my spiritual practices xD
Woah, interesting... It sounds like I have the same vibes to my recollection of my childhood as you two do... (INTJ 5w6)
Thank you Joyce for the podcast :D
Wow, I just had the craziest synchronicity... While listening to a video of Richard Rohr, as I was journaling about whether or not today has been "productive" in my exploration of cognitive functions and enneagram, I heard him say my name within 3 seconds of finishing the sentence I typed.
@ 42:34 Michael you're funny.
"Can we argue with the Enneagram? I don't know."
As a 5 we keep to ourselves, often isolate, and minimize our needs from life. At times as a means to avoid unnecessary energy expenditure.
Going toward 8 helps to engage more with expression(s) of what we think. A more forward oriented focus that stems from feeling OK with the knowledge currently known. Sometimes driven by an irritation at whatever, where it got to the point of speaking up.
I picture disintegrating toward 7 as having some similarities to being in a "loop" or "grip".
Actions and thoughts can get more erratic.
Over indulgence with things.
Sometimes it's engaged in a healthier way through various formats as being humorous.
I'm an INTJ 5w6. I would love to see a video about how Michael and Holly view where the economy is going in more depth. It's hard finding people that are interested in this subject to bounce ideas off of in a future perspective/historical way. I see people viewing me a little like I'm chicken little "The sky is falling". It would be nice to hear other INTJ's perspectives to make me feel less like a crazy person.
The only person willing to hop on this crazy train with me is my INFP 9w1 partner. Poor guy =) lol
Questions:
How do you view this covid-19?
Do you think covid is a real thing or a cover for something? I noticed once covid was brought up, the subject was changed to the economy pretty quick. That got me a little curious if Holly and Michael thought there was more to this.
Where do you see the real economy/ fake economy going in the next 5 -10 years?
Are you guys into crypto?
I know this channel is more about MBTI/Enneagram, so this channel is probably not the place for this type of video. If Michael, Holly, and other INTJ's would like to make a video on these subjects. Please send me a link to the video. I would love to see it.
Joyce,
Love your videos =)
I'm up for it. Those all sound like fun topics to cover. :-)
@@hfortenberry Happy to hear you are on board with this idea =)
@@dazydream123 Come to think of it though, I agree it would be fun but Joyce's channel really doesn't overlap much with macroeconomics so I'm thinking it won't align too well with her goals.
@@hfortenberry I agree. I haven't found my way over to look at Michael's channel yet but I am planning on checking it out. If you ever decide to start a channel that is more open to macroeconomics. Post me a link to your channel on this thread and I will subscribe. No pressure =)
Ah, there's truly a bit of masochist in all 4s, Fi or no Fi 🙃 I think deep down it's understood that suffering builds character and creates meaning.
5w4 (INTP); I live in a part of California that was basically surrounded by fire not long ago. When the wildfires were raging, I wanted to drive up into the mountains and get as close to the fire as possible (seriously, a once in a lifetime opportunity!). My boyfriend, who I'm pretty certain is a 6, seemed genuinely disturbed by my fascination and called me morbid (which I accept readily; the 4 wing in me revels in being called weird).
I have a theory about differentiating 5s and 6s, albeit based mostly on anecdotal observation, that I'm kind of curious now about if it holds true at all for a 6-wing (and also wondering if my 4-wing plays a role). I have noticed that any time in my life I fear something specific, learning more about that thing pretty much always dispels my fear. Knowledge is power, and familiarity evaporates any fog of the unknown. However, I have noticed that with 6s I've known, when they learn more about something they fear, it just seems to provide the fodder for continuing to rationalize distrust of that thing and all the more reasons to fear it. Maybe this isn't true for all 6s, but it seems to be among those I've known. I'm just curious if the 5w6s can relate at all vs solid 6s, or if it's simply a 5 trait to be empowered by knowledge, even with the 6 influence on safety and security.
For me, as a 5w6, whether or not learning makes me feel better or worse really depends on the essence of thing. If what I am learning is showing me there is something to fear such as hunkering in place when a Cat 5 hurricane is headed right for you, then learning more about what a Cat 5 can do will definitely instill a healthy fear that makes me run for cover. But often learning more about something makes me feel better.
For example, my ex and I back in the early 2,000s found a puppy out on the highway and brought her home. Six months later she started growing up and we realized we had a pit bull on our hands and we became a little scared of her. I was not going to allow that though so I started researching the breed like crazy and what I learned was such good information and my fears evaporated. She was a beautiful, sweet dog until the day she died. For me, I actually don't think I have irrational fears. I just tend to prefer to be geared toward prevention as it just seems the best way to conserve my energy.
You are right I'm an intj 5w4... previously I have been mistyped as intp and istp lol
One little funny story about picking the fastest route throughout the house idea. I routinely will walk as close to walls as I can to cut a sharper corner. It saves me milliseconds a day. I mean I'm literally missing them by like an inch. Problem is when I'm sick, my reactions are more sluggish, and so then my shoulders often will catch those walls, so I have to use a different routine when I'm sick.
I consider myself as a balanced wings on 5 as a INTJ
I might be biased cause I am one but panel is always the best when an INTJ is around 😆
That moment towards the end where Joyce just cant stop laughing lol xD
🤣 I lost it when Michael started poking fun at me for saying "balls of knowledge"
I relate!! Lol enfj 5. Loved this, thank you!
Glad you enjoyed, claudettedupont!
1:02:45 “The light of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is single , your whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!” - Matthew 6:
Not that I speak in respect of want: “for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.” - Philippians 4
“Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.” - Matthew 6
I’m wondering whether the healthy “you stress” concept is also from a 6 perspective , seeing as your inclination is to operate on that level anyway (not sure), so it can be a positive, other enneagram types might not share that view, it sounds kind of subjective to me.
I wondered the same thing about eustress relating to w6. It makes sense.
I don't know exactly why I found Michael's comment at 44:12 humorous. "Vaccine politics" LOL I guess it's the sheer absurdity that we are now in an era where our nation has made even vaccines political. You'll laugh to keep from crying.
@@Countertype Hi Michael! :-) The sad (?) thing is that I too have entertained one or two of these notions. But this one is ridiculous regarding RNA: "Moderna. Mod rna. It's right there in the name if people will open their eyes." LOL ...but what if it's true???
@@Countertype Michael, I wanted to ask you something. If you want to chat and have What'sApp, DM me on Twitter? My handle is in the show notes.
I like the lofi hip hop intro
I like Nics outro music 😁
57:18 I don’t understand how Michael can say he has dark Fi with this type of value system? Seems pretty spot on, realistic and honest (light) values. Imho. If that’s dark, then I am color blind. It’s recognizing dark, but the value isn’t (to me).
1:30:05 Nah, ENFP 5w4 (leaning on Fi) hard relates, except to the year prep., that being the P-side of things, doncha know.....
I’m a 5w4 and the morbid thing is so real. Death, blood, serial killers- the more brutal, the better. It’s been that way since I was a small child. Metal is the music of my soul. I feel so seen. Lol
I would really like to know the name of the noise band, didn't catch it.
It was en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merzbow
@@Countertype Thanks for the link. I listened to it and realized that I probably do relate to you musically more than came across. I just had to throw on some Front 242 Headhunter. I LOVED bands like Nirvana, Front 242, Ministry and Nine Inch Nails and was extremely into electronic, EBM and industrial/house music in the late 80's early 90's. I still have all those cassette tapes (cassettes lol). Then again I also love country, The Smiths, Enja, Tracy Chapman, Sarah Brightman, etc.. That's all old school because I had more time for music back then. But I pretty much love everything except super screamo. Some screaming is good though. :-)
I love Enya, not gonna lie.
Have you came across 3w4 INTJ's? Or do you think it's most likely to be an ENTJ mistype? Asking for a friend 😉.
It's a lot more likely for someone to be an ENTJ Enneagram 3 than INTJ Enneagram 3. :) But that Enneagram pairing is still possible for INTJs.
@@JoyceMeng22 Hot diggity! Thought it was just all that rap music that had me money hungry lol. Thank you for taking the time to reply. I appreciate you and your in-depth knowledge. :)
5w6 are into science and with the 6w they can be the devils advocate 5w4 are drawn to the arts and are idiosyncratic .5's are very autonomous they don't want to rely on their parents or anyone else . 5's are ambivalent towards their parents . I had quite a bit of Enneagram books which also talks about their relationship the types have with their parents . 6's have a strong bond with their dad's .I love the INTJ'S they bring a good amount of humor and their wealth of knowledge .
About ennegram type 5 not being Ok to be comfortable in the world I think
It is simply pure truth I'm myself a 5w6 INTJ and seriously no matter how
rich i will be i wann't allow myself to look or behave like a richman. I never
accept my parent or friend to give me a gift. i refuse to have a kids until the
world become a better place for everyone I insist on the
EVERYONE. When something good happen to
me i don't feel like i deserve it when a whole bunch of people are just crying
hell somewhere else in the world. I have a hard time to feel pleasur as this
planète look like a silly place like i''m not from earth. Everything look awkward,
vastly enefficient and unfair. But people seem to like and follow this broken
civilisation. From time to time i can accept myself to have a rest if i feel like i have
done a lot for others.Aside from that i run like a glider plane with very little needs ...
Michael you like noise music yaaaay
Enjoyed this! That's an interesting point about being drawn to troublemakers vs being the goody two shoes teacher's pet. Also natural pessimism vs optimism. I wonder if that w4 vs w6 difference holds true for others. I thought I might be 5w4 but I relate more to Holly on those counts.
I'm an INTJ and also a flat-earther. ❤
stop looking at me like that 😂😂
INTJ 5W6 writer and artist here. Am I supposed to be 5W4 more?
I went a full year without talking to anyone, and I don’t care. I actually prefer it l.
as an entp i identify with 4 very strongly! but i don't identify with 5 or 3 and apparently you have to choose adjacent numbers in enneagram for some reason which i am sure has no ti foundation whatsoever.
anyways, when people call 4s selfish and when they say "oh why do you have to be special are you a snowflake" etc. i always say this: greatest art piece you will ever create is your personality. why don't you want to be special? why don't you want to be different? are you afraid others will call you a snowflake? then you definitely should blend in and be a nobody and project your insecurity to those who can dare to be authentic!
since when being bland and ordinary is better than different? stay wierd! why do we try to create new music or paintings or dance styles or whatever if our personalities even doesn't worth an artistic touch? then nothing worths nothing! isn't that just depressive?
society needs individuals and wierdos and neurotics. in fact those are the ones who shape the history of the world. not soldiers of te and fe. fi and ti will question the status quo. te and fe will serve it because serving status quo almost always brings guaranteed mini success. following the tribe, you can't be better than the tribe. as simple as that. legendary success comes from the wierd and unexpected and unconventional and individualistic! but legendary fail also comes from that.
Welcome back Windu!
@@PowerRedBullTypology thanks! now i actually get a notification when somebody reply to my comment which is nice.
@@windureborn3292 Yeah that part about comment replies on youtube is quite unclear. I do not get lots of notifications either when people reply. I think I only seem to get notifications if the browser that people use puts the @ thing there at the start, but I am not even sure of that. I am not even sure why half of the time it does put that @ and of the time it does not. I used to have a browser that does not do that and now I have a browser that does that half of the time.
However, apparently half of this issue is apparently account related? Maybe if one has lots of messages on youtube, it starts to disfunction? I am not sure
Also, did you know Kurtis made a video about you missing?
@@PowerRedBullTypology i made a comment under his video but it most probably go into his "possible spam" thing as it has multiple swearwords and a youtube link.
as for notification thing, i was never getting notification for replies. youtube was notifying me when comment got a heart though. and randomly, i was getting notified for some likes too. but it would make sense for youtube to stop notifying you when you have a million comments around the youtube.
5w6 is more community oriented and 5w4 are more loners!
Even the face look pretty simillar.
Volunteer work is free labor.
INFP- I heart Igorrrrr. 5w4.
Hahah love Michael’s opinion.
Michael is cracking me up, I'm so intrigued by this "morbid" side 🤣
5w4, 8. Also listen to noise, and take comfort in extreme music. Same for visual art. But it’s required to meet a certain height of taste. There’s lots of corny ‘mall’ metal and the like that I find intolerable. I think a lot of that stuff is made by extroverts and it’s gratingly attention seeking and unrefined.
Intj 5w4 are a cross between infj and infp
They actually look alike... Am I tripping
They do! Holly has sent me photos showing how similar she looks in comparison to Michael