Why doesn't D&RGW 491 have a spark arrestor? - A look inside
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 11 фев 2025
- 491's got a special front end device, like most of her D&RGW sisters and cousins. It's pretty cool - let's take a look!
Merch: hyce.creator-s...
Join my discord: / discord
Become an ES&D Train Crew Member and get extra perks!
/ @hyce777
Can confirm that a hot beverage is always an important step in steam locomotive maintenance and operation
It's a priority!
And an icy ome for when the work is done 😂
Not just for steam either
@@brianpacos4072drinking and really getting wasted
I have never seen anyone open up a smokebox door on camera before today. I know all smokebox doors aren't like 491s but first time for everything. Awesome video Mark!
Love the new videos, they’ve taught me a lot of stuff that I wouldn’t have known, thanks.
When you ran this last month, the cinders that did come out were much finer than 20's. We did fire patrol that day, but there was little evidence of anything landing on the grand that would have been a problem.
Watching it for several years of Polar at night, you see maybe one or two glowing ones here and there and they are no longer glowing by the time they get 10' from the stack. It's neat.
Now, that one time someone who shan't be named decided to throw a big log on... Not rated for wood burners, lol!
I expected it to work more like a Cyclone Filter, where the centrifugal forces and particle density help separate particles from the air.
Really cool and neat informative video
That sorta happens, but usually the draft is so strong that it doesn't really filter terribly well.
The OG cyclone spark arrestor certainly operated on that principle. Instead of being all vanes like in #491, it'd be half vanes, half a vertical drum. The vanes induce cyclonic motion, and then the heavier, more dangerous hot cinders get 'ground' against the surface of the drum, breaking them up and cooling them down, reducing the chance for them to start lineside fires.
Interesting. Nice to see you opening that hatch to the smoke box and showing the insides :)
I found your channel about 3 months ago with the "Starting a Steam Locomotive 101" Video and have been permanently converted to the great community that is railfans, and loved it ever since! Thank you for what you do!
LOL I knew the Dyson vacuum was far from the first to use cyclonic separation but I didn't know the concept went so far back as to be steam locomotive technology!
Yes! My first thought was Dyson
I did not ask this question because I already knew the answer... I watched the whole video anyway!
I enjoy your explanations of this stuff. I did not know it as an Anderson front end, but as Cyclone front end. Ingenious design.
hyce my man, i say this to myself every time i see one of your videos,, but you have the coolest job every man, and i'm jealous.
I realized I drove by this place all the time on the way to fish clear creek canyon on 6
And the smoke coms out of the stack It spins like a small tornado.
it is so cool !
Good stuff Mark. Do you know how well it would work on a wood-burner? When we finish the Lyon it will inevitably take a few trips up to Virginia City every once in a while and around here fire control is taken SUPER seriously.
I don't know if Lyon would have space in it's smokebox for one. Wood burners are tough too. Hard to say. I'm not familiar enough with traditional wood burning stacks to know if it would help or be better.
My original thought is to hide a pipe inside the stack and spray a mist of water from the cross head pumps just below the netting into the space inside the spark arrestor to saturate the embers on the way out, similar to how it’s done on coal burners. What say you?
I’ve actually seen inside D&SNG 481s smoke box during her rebuilding. She didn’t even have an Anderson before that. And mmmmm coffee.
Amazing video 👍 and so informative thanks so much for making it !
Super. I like the Mike. K-28 478 is my first love, but 491 looks just fine. 💙 T.E.N.
Hey Hyce! Thanks for the wonderful content.
Question: Why is her smoke box door so thick? And what are the baffles on the door for? I doubt it is an insulated door right?
Also did any of these girls ever have snow plow cow catchers mounted during service?
The door is thick and bolted down to ensure the draft goes out the stack :) haha. The door itself, other than the pattern, is the same thickness as the box. The pattern has a fluid related purpose that I can't recall. I'll have to study up.
None of these three wore plows, so far as I know.
Awesome video! Love learning more about steam locomotive engineering! Also, the "Subscribe" text on the end card is spelled "Subcribe". I don't know what Subcribeing iis but I wanna do it! XD
But in all seriousness, just wanted to let you know. Dunno if it's been that way for a while or if it's just this video, I don't know if you assemble your end cards on a per-video basis or just have one pre-rendered for all your videos.
Oh lmao
That's been broken the entire time
I'm not sure what subcribing is but I want everyone to do it I guess! Lol!
Ever since I was a small boy looking at the illustration Bill Peet drew for "The Caboose Who Got Loose" where we see a flurry of railroad workers cleaning a steam locomotive (that looks a lot like this one, in fact), that drawing always stuck out in my mind. I always pondered how they got the smokebox open. From your video here, it certainly looks like it's no quick manuver to undertake. (Which is good! I'm sure you wouldn't want it flinging open as it jingles, rumbles, and roars down the tracks!)
With that said, how many thingymabobs (bolts? Screws? I couldn't see what they were exactly) did you have to unwind to get the airtight seal to open?
Odd question I know, but it's for research for a story I'm writing.
They're called smokebox dogs; the amount varies per engine, but 491 has about 16 I think? I'd have to count. Lol.
@@Hyce777 Ah, I see. Intriguing coincidence, I just discovered last night that the wheel-latch door of a submarine is also referred to as the "dogs", in research for my aforementioned story yet again. Makes sense to keep the terminology consistent. An airtight seal is an airtight seal, regardless of the reasons for it, I suppose.
Thanks for the clarification.
Learned something new yet again
Thank you for showing us things that we can't see about the steam engines.
So you clean the flues from the firebox end? How does that work? Is there some kind of dump door in the smokebox, for the soot and cinders that don't make it out? Or do you have to remove the cyclone to clean? Seems like a very involved cleaning process. Well, more involved than with external arrestors.
Flues get cleaned from the firebox end, with either a sewer nozzle on a pressure washer, or an auger if they're really jammed up.
Cleanout is minimal, because most of it gets sent out the stack. When we do have to clean the smokebox, it's a "shovel-and-bucket" affair.
I'd love to see a detailed comparison of this and the Victoria Railways Modified Front-End among others, even if I know the only realistic way would be a computer simulation. (ie. Same engine but with the different front ends, see how they differ in fuel consumption, performance, amount of sparks, etc)
I'd love to see that too.
It would be cool if you went out to Europe or china where they're one of the few remaining places that operate steam trains in commercial environments to do interviews with those who operate & maintain the equipment in a commercial environment where the equipment is pushed to it's limits.
Oh, BTW… no Carl here so, Big Boy! 🤣
Wow! So many latches to open the smoke box. Wouldn't a simple locking mechanism and, perhaps, an O-ring to keep the door sealed suffice?
Why build a complex or large locking mechanism when you can have a cheap easy replaceable part that doesn't need adjustment? ;)
@@Hyce777 Actually, I was thinking along the lines of a cheap lock to keep the door closed. But, you have a point. If one latch breaks is cheaper to replace and you have other redundant laches. So, one broken latch wouldn't compromise the door.
484 on the CATS has screens on her cyclone now. Any chance you might be able to do a video on the difference between a cyclone front end and a master mechanic front end like 488 has now on the CATS?
Hi Mark cool video man. Hey speaking ok spark arrestees do you guys have a fire patrol when you run 491 or is that not needed dude to the front end it has? Thanks man and also just wondering do you know what’s going on with 487? Thanks again man Jeff aka NW611J. PS here’s to coffee man cheers!
Great video Hyce. Do you have sparks coming from underneath the locomotives much, through the grate etc? We have a historic steam train in New Zealand called the Kingston Flyer that runs in a dry climate. Been known to start the odd grass fire there. There are some RUclips videos of the Kingston Flyer that you could check out. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the look of our trains in NZ. Cheers
Our ash pans are sealed pretty well on bottom, so it's not common, but it definitely can happen, yes.
Wild you had the smoke box door open did you check out everything and make sure it good
Of course :)
Mr Hyce. I am watching this in hopes of learning what can be damaged of the rop front end of the smoke box gets smashed.. 1 of the channels i am subbed to is Rail Force. He films in ronks and surrounding area Strasburg RR PA.
He posted a community bulletin notvto long ago (11/2/2022) There was an accident today in paradise. The strasburg RR engine 495 ran across a misaligned stwitch.
And instead of going to railfan park where its intended. it went straight down the Amtrack line and struck a backhoe that was left unattended on the tracks.
The elbow of the backhoe boom went through the smoke box of 425 and tearing off part of the funnel and destroyed the headlamp. It bad.
And also depressing. 425 is the Actual screen used Shiny Time Station locomotive 425. There were passengers on during the accident board.
They radioed for a stwitcher to come for the passenger cars and the 7 or 8 passenger cars that had people in it during the accident. Everyone is ok. The train crew is is ok. The locomotive is its just f...ed. Im watching cause you explain stuff. I am on a hellbent mission to help save it. So im going to listen and write down all the parts that can possibly be damaged. Rail Force has pics on is channel. If you would please give suggestions. Thank you so much.
Anthony,
Thanks for the comment. I have seen the footage of the accident from today. It's the bad kind of amazing, unfortunately. The locomotive can be fixed; thankfully no one was hurt. What a nasty accident.
How would you clean 491s boiler tubes? I understand that ash would build up over time requiring that bit of cleaning but the cyclones’ in the way.
From the firebox end, either with a sewer nozzle on the pressure washer or with a big mechanical auger.
@@Hyce777 ahh, that makes sense thanks for letting me know
1:02 I know someone who would look at the boiler and try to figure out how to convert it into a coffee maker.
You wouldn't want to use boiler water... But you could. Lol
these videos have been very educational but one thing I still do not under standard is that lot of live steam engines in g scale only have a door opening in the smoke box and you light it that way I do not if that is a different type of locomotive or safety or just easer to lite
Not sure, I am not much of a live steam guy. I suppose it's just easier without the tender in the way.
did all 37's had the cyclon spark arestors? or only 491, which also is the only one with thermo syphons.
All the K-36's and K-37's got them in the late 1930's.
What would happen if you opened the firebox door while the engine was steamed up? Or if you lit a fire in the firebox with the door open?
It's not too big of a deal unless you've got a ton of draft. Then you draw cold air in the fire, which can damage the firebox if too much enters for too long.
I have a question! What about standard gauge locomotives. Why don’t some bigger locomotives not have a spark arrestor
Some don't burn coal, most that do have stokers, so they use really small coal that burns more completely; some also have combustion chambers that help to complete the burn, etc.
Question: Does the Durango & Silverton uses these? They seem to be resolved to turn their engines into oil burners, would this have helped or are they just not with it?
They should've had them in their locomotives previously; I'm not sure if they've been used recently or not. They work the engines a lot harder, so there's a lot more chance of things coming out. That, and the design of the arch brick in the K-36 vs. the K-37 is different enough that a K-36 is more likely to put hot stuff out than the K-37. Either way, oil is ultimately better in this regard so I understand why they did what they did.
I always thought that is was a turbine when I saw it in a brass model of a K36
I have 2 questions: 1, Why does 491 have so many bolts to keep the smokebox door closed, and 2, How does the steam going through the super heater units get hotter though it is going through water/steam at approximately the same temperature?
The superheater tubes go through the fire tubes. (The ones that carry the smoke from the fire through the smokebox) so it doesn't go through water.
1. That's how most engines in the US are; it helps keep the door sealed to make sure that the fire is drafted as hard as it can be.
Flamedude is correct that the superheater tubes are running inside the exhaust of the fire, not water. The flues are 5-1/2" and two units are run inside each.
Can you do a full walk around and kind of “engine tour” of the engines at the railroad museum?
Good idea :)
Great vid Hyce
Seems to me that the British might have had us the the smoke box door department. Although I’ll bet the lugs seal better than the dart on a British smoke box.
Probably; you only need in there so often so it's really not a big deal.
How do you clean out the fire tubes with the cyclone in the way
From the firebox side.
So you climb in the firebox
@@nathanjackson7992 yes
Morning coffee is important for any profession
Question I've always had. Why do the narrow gauge locomotives put out sparks. This doesn't seem to be a problem on the later standard gauge locomotives as they don't have external spark arrestors
Lots of different things; it depends on the locomotive. Some locos had a combustion chamber, which helped completely burn things up; some were stoker fired, so the coal was very finely sized to begin with; some didn't burn coal at all; etc.
@@Hyce777 interesting. Thank you for the response. I'm a big PRR fan so im a noob to the world of narrow gauge. Your videos are very informative
All I learned is 491 is GOAT
Hey Mark just wondering where do you guys put the blankets on the engines when you put them away fir the night? I couldn’t see it in the last videos guys ran the 491. Thanks man Jeff aka NW611J.
491 gets hers put in the toolbox. I don't think the other two have them.
@@Hyce777 aww ok thank you could you show the blankets closer it is kinda hard to see 491s? Thanks man look forward to seeing more.
What kind of impact does that have on the draft for the F firebox?
The cyclone does reduce the draft a bit, but not enough to cause issues.
imagine the loco drank it first coffee and it gose out of control
Hyce did any k class engines ever get ridgeway spark arrestors
Unfortunately some of the K's on the D&S got ridgeway that were not of the correct design, but they looked the part. They didn't work, so they were removed.
The ridgeway was a C&S patent.
Also. Now we know. Markkkkle. When is the best time to come get a ride on the es&d colorado edition?
When it's running... Lol
@@Hyce777 that’s why they pay Hyce the big bucks
Were there ever steam locomotives that used a proper forced-draft system like on a steamship, with a suction fan to draw a powerful draft over the fire? I doubt there was ever one with induced draft because that puts overpressure on the machine room to induce the draft and it would be difficult to seal the cab against the overpressure.
The exhaust drafts the fire pretty ridiculously hard, but I don't know exactly what you're talking about.
@@Hyce777 I believe he's talking about something that acts like draft but instead of using the exhaust to draw air into the fire box(not sure if that's how that works) it uses a fan to draw air onto the fire.
Yes there was a B&O train in their very early years that did use draft fans for a vertical boiler but this engine also used gun barrels for vertical pipes
There were, actually. I don't think any of them were built in America, but every condensing locomotive ever built likely had a mechanical forced draft system, unlike the passive exhaust system used on conventional locomotives.
This is because, as the name suggests, they condensed the exhaust steam back into water for re-use rather than venting it up the smokestack, thus meaning they didn't have the natural forced draft that conventional locomotives do. Thus, they had to make it via mechanical means.
South African Railways (SAR) had a couple notable examples of these condensing locomotives, and you can even find a video on RUclips that has them in it. They honestly sounded more like turbine engines than conventional steamers, given the draft fan and condenser fans make a good amount of noise.
@@Hyce777 He's referring to a mechanical drafting system, like what would be used on Steamships or Condensing Locomotives, where the forced draft is created by a mechanical device rather than the exhaust steam.
I kind of wonder if the cyclone would help with wood fired engines
Most wood fired engines don't have space in their smokebox for these.
@@Hyce777
Yeah they sadly don’t
If they did though it would probably help with reducing sparks
N00b question coming at ya... why is it called a spark arrestor instead of an ember arrestor? Is it because you don't want to 'spark' a fire? Or is there some other reason that I'm missing?
The embers look like sparks, I suppose. Not sure where the etymology comes from.
Did you get 491 a new blanket? Last I remember seeing it, it looked a LOT less clean.
It got washed. :)
Huh! An "Anderson spark arrestor" right? Man, I've been looking through the "business" end of every Class one, main line, USRA steam locomotives on the planet, and this is the first time I've ever heard of such a thing, (pardon my ignorance, I guess), but what a great device! 'Too bad it, (supposedly), didn't work too well when they had all the wild-fires back in the day and blamed it on these locomotives. Am I to understand that that the D&RGW NOW runs completely on oil?
They worked well enough, though always still possibly.
The D&RGW doesn't exist anymore; the tourist lines that operate their power still have converted some to oil. I believe almost everything the Durango & Silverton runs burns oil. The Cumbres and Toltec has one oil burner. The rest still burn coal.
Hi how hot does the smoke gets is there a Guage or something thank you rail fan Tommy
The smoke gets really hot! 1000+ degrees Fahrenheit. We don't have a gauge for it though.
How are the tubes swept that doesn’t look like it comes out the way easy
The tubes get cleaned from the firebox end.
do you guys overhaul any locos?
Yup. 346 is being overhauled right now.
Bit of a random comment, but I had a dream you had 61.4k subscribers
Well that would be neat! Lol
Arrestor is a word that just doesn't look like it is spelled right, but it is.
You've got a point there.
speaking of spark arrestors, i eat them for breakfast. the key is to add slightly spoiled milk.
What
its local cuisine
Everything on a K37 is big, Except the gauge
Do you get bored just running the locomotives in circles? Or does the railroad go farther than you have showed us? (No I haven’t looked up the museum)
It can get boring, yes. Usually I take to trying to do different train handling or try to keep my speed bang on one speed the whole way around which makes it a fun challenge. But yeah, it's just a half mile circle.
Is the museum situated such that you might someday add additional track mileage ? I don’t recall you stating the purpose of the newly laid track in the recent videos. Is serviceable used rail available to help keep costs down ? Thanks, these videos are much appreciated.
My connection to old technology is my 31 Ford Deluxe Roadster which is my driver, and a stint constructing a historically accurate wooden tall ship - Sultana. The ship was not unlike steam rail - an insane number of man hours in construction, upkeep, and in operation. Ditto on the car, likewise an insane amount of routine service per mile when compared to new. Back when labor was cheap.
@@myrlstone8904 the new track is a display track inside the loop. If neighboring properties come up for sale it'd be possible.
The Mother of all Dysons?
What’s a spark arrestor
It's a piece if equipment that attaches to the funnel to keep sparks and ashes from flying all over the place and starting fires.
Thank you guys.
my favorite explanation is the thingy inside or outside the choo choo that stops them from having to go to federal prison for arson related tendencies
@@F40M07 No problem. :)
i am no expert but why not put your coffee on the running boards, putting it down low like that, you risk knocking it over or some debris falling into as you loosen them nuts
Not really a terribly good spot for it and I hadn't drank it yet so I wasn't thinking clearly, lol!
I bet 491 spews flame when it's actually working though.
Nope.
I don't envy the poor bastards that had to climb in there and install all that equipment. I'm not claustrophobic but I hate... haaaaaaate working in confined spaces. That developed from the 1 summer I worked as an Electricians apprentice while we overhauled the wiring of a warehouse with a sub ceiling. God that sucked so bad.
Spark arrestor? I hardly know her.
so what im hearing is that the spark arrestor is the steam locomotive's equivalent of a catalytic converter.
2.Jan.2024
Sorta? I guess that makes sense.
Hey its 491s binky
YT perceived my weakness, and offered your groovy wheel show vid. Next day I see this one.
3 sec into this, I'm totally jelly. As in jealous
Then you offer to open the smoke box, and I say, "Shirley, you're not going to turn all those nuts and release the dogs!"
And my wife says, "if I ever find that hussy Shirley, both of you lazy cheaters are gonna be found dead from mysterious causes on a back road."
So I throw the last remaining sofa cushion at her. She releases the usual diatribe, grabs a 6 of Iron City off the stack in the hallway, and goes to the fake-named beauty parlor.
He steps up to yon box of the smoke, and I gasp, "Shirley Mr Hyce (Heisssssssss) has an access that I have no knowledge of!"
And the soiled children complain that the quality (quantity) of their Lucky Charms will head south if I ever get found dead by the side of a back road.... I holler at them that they need to pick up all the cushions thrown around the house, and if I ever find _their_ father, he'll be found dead on that same road.
*_Thennnnn_* Mr Heisssssssss proceeds to violate all rules of RUclips creationship, and *HAND-WRENCHES* all those dogs open!!!! O! Such crimes against society! At least: I thought hand-wrenching was a forsaken technique, abandoned by all but society's most underprivileged. and me.
We serve food here sir
@@Hyce777 the commute is a little further than my Ford Pinto can survive. Otherwise, I'd be happy to come and vex the bejesus out of you and your colleagues-in-soot. I'm sure there's an excellent view of the countryside from Rogers Pass during your dining respites.
hello
Isn’t 346
having the train version of a plastic surgery
Not really
ThEy ShOuLd ReReStOrE iT aNd RuN iT oN tHe MaInLiNe AgAiN
491 vs a d51
While on the topic, maybe nerds would be interested in how spark arrestors are designed in other places around the world, here's an article from New Zealand.
users.fini.net/~bersano/english-anglais/NZ-accessories/Spark%20arresters%20used%20on%20NZR.pdf