As a lionel toy train fan I am always astounded when I see just how small the flanges on a real life train are, it looks crazy to have that much weight guided by such a relatively small contact area.
This was eye opening. I thought all the wheels would be up against the outside, but after your last video I had no idea wtf was going on. This explains it perfectly, AND shows me why some of my models derail on certain curves. Thank you. Every deep dive you do, I find that I knew WAY less then I thought I did.
I love that you have such a big variety on content regarding trains. Games, models, real life trains, friends / train themed conversations, and learnings. Your channel really is a one stop shop. Please keep it up! I think I have yet to see a video I haven't fully been invested in. Have you ever considered doing a podcast where y'all talk about stories, history, and such?
Professor Hyce gives another lesson in train science. Interesting experiments, do more about more stuff, crazy train man. Another interesting view of the dynamics between tender and locomotive is the foldplate over the gap between these, and how it moves. I've stood on those and it's actually pretty terrifying as it moves around your feet!
This was really interesting! I've always thought about how flange and track interact, as well as what is and isn't bearing weight while rolling over switches, and now I know what some of that looks like. As a side note, I'll never grow tired of seeing that closing shot of 20 and 491 at the end of each video. A quick edit: I completely forgot to say that I would absolutely love a deep dive on couplers, and in particular what scenarios cause them to break.
Cheers, I'm glad you enjoy the B roll shot at the end. We'll have them both fired up next week, so hopefully I'll get to do it again. Maybe in snow. :)
Dude! Just wanna say, thanks for all this amazing content! I have alittle adhd and there isn't too many youtube train channels that I watch, much less actually able to pay attention to and learn from.
Thank you so much. This is really interesting. Even with out the comment ist I retesting. But the time you took to voiceover these and your explanation as well as how your assumptions were wrong is commendable. It reminds me of the time I put a GoPro under my jeep and did before and after new shocks. It was a lot more work than I thought and a ton more time than I expected. It's unimaginable to me the time and effort you put into this. Kudos to the staff that gave you access and blessing to do this. I hope it will prove some value to their operations also. I'll have to dig up my jeep video just to watch it again. It was meant for me to see so it's pretty rough (no pun intended) if I can find it I'll share it if you would like to see it
Thankfully for us here at the CRRM, I am the staff. :D Here's hoping others will allow me to do this sort of thing at other railroads as well! And yeah, I can only imagine... it's a lot of work. I imagine the Jeep footage was eye-opening. I know I would've loved to see what my front suspension in the GTO did before I rebuilt it....
As an amateur dancer, I really feel in for coupler cam - things like that gives your immense proudness for doing something right and mindnumbing shame for screwing up in the same time (as one of our teachers said "your never show newbies video of them dancing" and another teacher are obcessed of archieving EVERY dance session). And I love the vibe of whole video - it is definetly one of "kid in the candy shop" moments :) And for the whole subject - I am sure that this whole info is laid down in some old books, and it is painful to think, how much of pretty recent knowledge we has to rediscover be reverse thinking and trial and error. Also, with this whole rigid base dynamics - it is crazy to think, how they constructed that things, given limited means for getting data..
Watching that coupler dance around is absolutely terrifying... yes, let's dive in there next time! I live about 100 feet from a slow zone where they stop and start a lot, so I hear all manner of clanks progressing down the 110 cars of our typical BNSF freight train. What causes which sort of racket would be quite enlightening. Also maybe a dive into thumpers and dragging brakes (sometimes I can hear one still screaming when it hits the last crossing, two miles away, and then I call up BNSF and tell 'em what I heard).
It was amazing to see this Hyce. I thought the same as you did for when the axcles hit the curve and how they'd react going through them curves. But sad their wasn't any SHEEEEEP 😂😂 Thank you for another great and learning video 🙏🏻
Oh my, seeing that coupler system in action I get the whole train handling obsession. Oh my oh my. With the chain couplers over here I've sent shunters to hell for waaay smaller slack - and mind both buffers and chain coupler are spring loaded, thus catching tension/compression transitions way more softly than the rigid (?) mounting of the couplers you have.
One of these days Hyce is going to show up to work with a bag full of cameras and be asked "Where are you going to mount them this time?" H:"*Everywhere!*, You get a camera, and you get a camera, Everyone gets a camera!"
A little late watching this as i was catching up on your RRO campaign with Kan but i agree with everyone else. More couplers, more Hyce and more of Hyce trying to break said couplers lol. Great video again.
Would love a deep dive on couplers starting from the beginning if you can find enough study material. Great video sir, and I hope you are doing better.
From chain-and-buffer, to link-and-pin, to the weird experimental couplers (I'm looking at you, Miller Hooks), to Janees, to the automatic knuckle couplers we have today. That would certainly be an interesting video.
A coupler deep dive? Heck yeah, yes please! Another thing I'd love to see filmed would be all the vertical (i.e. suspension) and horizontal linkages between the wheelsets, which I found the most confusing part of the steam loco 101. Even having stared at such setups in person in a museum, I just find it hard to visualize what all these linkages and levers are intended to do when they're not moving. (Totally understand if that's too hard to film in practice, just an idea)
That would be an interesting video, definitely a harder one to film but it is doable and I'll see what I can do when we run during the day. All the runs now are at night so it's hard to get well lit footage
If you do more if these style videos, I recommend that you have a diagram in the corner that highlights where we’re looking because I am finding it really hard to understand the layout of the wheels as you’re talking. However, I really do enjoy the experiment and explaining what’s happening
I noticed that the fireman's side #1's sander when rail is away from the flange the sand misses the track by a good amount. It barley hits. and apparently as you mentioned the number 4 sander needs adjusting as it misses as well but much more so.
Having a video for the couplers as you run the train would be neat, maybe one between tender/first car and another between last car/caboose to see the difference in how they act. Like if bumps like you showed here really translated to the rear or not. Maybe on loco and a car brake rigging as well, to see how that plays in also?
@@Hyce777 how many do you have? My suggestion would be four, and couplers only could be on 3 cars plus caboose for four cameras. I just mentioned brakes along with just to see when the engage and release compared to the slack
3:55-"piece by piece" is how everything got built... so might as well use that idea behind it, to learn us how the drivers/trails interact.... I live near a CN depot, so I was always curious how the wheels did so much work with what appears to be no larger than a nickel's worth of space for the contact patch.
When I was a kid I was obsessed with steam engines. Particularly how the wheels rotates as it accelerates. When I saw the K-36 platforms my jaw must've dropped pass the floor. It was from an old "Great American Train Ride" video.
This makes me want to stick a go pro to one of the commuter trains I work on. Tho seeing how fast and rough some of the areas are I'd probably loose it
Love this type of deep dive video and of course want to see more. But this also begs the question if the museum is going to start using you for training videos. I.E. using that coupler footage to help you guys maintain better slack control for the passengers comfort.
I guess we'll find out! The weird thing to know is that, I'm regarded as a smooth engineer and not bumping people around. To see the slack moving that much still was surprising to me.
So, the conclusion is that the engine doesn't get rotated enough. That's the job of the leading and trailing trucks (as those are the only "steered" axles, as far as I understand). The first insight that I became aware of is that the single-axle view is obviously incomplete. It only accounts for rotating moments that are caused by forces acting forwards and backwards on opposite ends of each axle. But there's also forces acting left and right on axes on the opposite ends of the engine. And since engines almost exclusively have axle distances that are several times larger than the gauge (wheel distance on an axle), the second type of rotating moment dominates over the individual axes' self-righting tendency. The problem of the trucks not steering the train enough may in the end be down to 2 factors: Either the trucks are articulated too close to the center of the engine frame; in which case the angle those axes are steered to just wouldn't be large enough to steer the engine. Or there just isn't enough weight on the two trucks. After all, the 2 trucks can only steer/turn the engine if they win out against the tendency of the 8 straight-mounted drivers to resist being shifted left and right, which keeps the engine from rotating. Since you won't be able to rebuild the truck's articulation points, the only thing you can do to fix the under-steering problem is to move weight around between the axles. You'll want to move it from the 1st (and 4th) drivers onto the leading (and trailing) axles; and if you don't want to loose traction you'll also want to move some of that weight onto the 2nd (and 3rd) axle. This sadly WOULD involve re-machining of the fulcrum levers that connect the leaf springs. For those that don't know what I'm referring to: Hyce explains it in his steam 101 video at ruclips.net/video/RFo7rivpvNk/видео.html this time. Specifically the green component he draws at 32:23. I wonder what the ratio of the arms on the fulcrum bars is at the moment. If you wanted to distribute weight evenly between the 3rd drivers, 4th drivers and trailing wheels, each fulcrum lever would need to have an arm ratio of exactly 1-to-1. If you wanted less weight on the 4th drivers than on the other wheels, it would need to be more like 1-to-1.2 (with the larger lever arm of both fulcrum levers towards the 4th driver). From the photo that you use in the steam 101 video, it seems like the lever is around 1.3-to-1 (with the larger lever arm towards the 3rd driver!!!). That would definitely shift weight from the 3rd driver onto the 4th driver (_additionally_ to the lever between the 4th drivers and the trailing wheels _most probably_ also shifting weight onto the 4th drivers). I wonder if this lever came installed that way around from the factory...
Unfortunately, remaking the levers is impossible (well, so prohibitive it might as well be impossible), and she makes it round the railroad just fine, so we'll keep her as is.
I would also love a deep dive on couplers, echoing NEAFarmKid's comment here. I still believe you could narrate for a pro documentary like Pentrex. Your voice is seriously good and you know your stuff. I could listen to it all day. Very good video, superb voice, very easy to listen to and absorb. I'm glad to see you're doing better Hyce, and I really enjoy your voice and commentary. Superb videos, superb commentary, very easy to listen to and absorb the knowledge within. You do good work Hyce. Keep it up.
@@Hyce777 You're welcome Hyce. Also, I would not be averse to helping you out if you need someone to play with on your channel, though as someone who has limited means I would need to be more of a virtual participant, not an in-person one. So if you ever need another "idiot" I'll gladly be your fifth. It'd be an honor. (Though you might also want to see how things work out first. I don't want to talk your ears off, which is something I probably will do anyway.)
Not only does the engine want to go straight but the tension on the drawbar tries to keep the frame in line with the drawbar. If you stop in the curve then reverse direction I expect the #4 driver to be aginst the outside rail before it completes even a half turn.
I was wondering if load effects how the engine handles the curves, or if it is primarily a hittch problem. I'm thinking more of the modern practice of mid-train power distribution. Also, do you have a set schedule to change the tires, and do you change all at the same rime?
That's a good question that I don't have the answer to. As far as the tires; they all have to be exactly the same during rebuild; so yes, all are trued to profile to the same size, and when replacement time comes, all are replaced.
Small question (nothing to do with this). Does the connecting rod placement play a role in performance? I plan on building a NSWGR D57 4-8-2 Mountain class and it has its connecting rod on its 2nd driving axle. I however prfer it much more on the 3rd driving axle. Would you please explain that to me?
no making cameras go crunch! an idea to consider for mounting the Go-pro on the back of the Tender might be to rig a bar across that is clamped in place allowing a far better angle of view.
In 04 conducting on the loop I counted the slack rollin in and took a step back accordingly. I always faced uphill to catch anyone who lost their step. One question, how much popping slip is each axle doing to accommodate the curve? With the low volume and voiceover I couldn’t distinguish the popping. Tell Mr Shabow I said hello.
D&RG 1126 / D&RGW 1026 was what 491's boiler came from. We are not sure which tender the one behind 491 came from. They picked from what they had, and there wasn't much rhyme or reason. This current tender is actually 499's tender... So, K-37 tenders are a bit tough to keep track of. Lol
On the Gettysburg and Northern railroad there is one spot at a railroad crossing near Aspers Pennsylvania that there are two rails and I also saw the same rail at Tamaqua Pennsylvania near the yard. It is road, rail, mystery rail, road, mystery rail, rail and road. I think that mystery rail is from the steam days at the Gettysburg railroad days.
Are there any locos with flangless drivers at the museum? That would be interesting to see. Also I love how this project opened your eyes to some maintenance issues 😂
lol, right? "Ignorance is bliss", right? Though, the sander and the ashpan linkage aren't a big deal. The ashpan linkage particularly. Moreso just funny that it wobbles so much... lol. But it stays shut, doesn't drop hot ones, so, all good. 346 has two blind drivers. I *absolutely* want to film them. She's just out of service for a few years... lol
@@Hyce777 is it really going to take that long for her service? I mean I guess it makes sense having to do it on the downtime rather than being able to have time or people dedicated solely to it.
@@Ronald.Golleher yeah there's only 3 of us paid in the shop, and she needs a lot of work. Tubes, some firebox work, mudring work, new tires, at least one new axle, new brasses for the rods, new steam chests, D valve work... it's a lot.
“Christian Schluter eat your heart out” LMAO YOURE THE BEST does this mean that the engine drifts through the curve? And when will you make a trip to Illinois to film the superior SOU 2-8-0 (401)?
Just for you buddy. Hahahaha. It sort of reverse drifts? On a microscopic scale. If you've got a contact that can get me permission and all that jazz I'd find a way. :)
I would like to see a bracket on the couplers, to limit travel so at least three quarters of the coupler knuckles stayed gripping. It looked, to me, like a disconnect was eminent as the leading vehicle appeared to be rising while the trailing vehicle hitch was descending. Also, thank you for the comment on paint hiding the ability to observe cracks. Another lesson likely learned the hard way. Are the wheel flanges showing signs of ware to any great extent, or is that not inspected? I was surprised to learn of the conical design for the wheels/tires.
The modern day "shelf" type couplers, typically for AAR F style knuckles, do have those travel limiters; typically reserved for hazmat service. When they were having the halfway bypass condition you saw, we were on a +1.5% to -3.5% grade change. That's about as steep of a change in one place you'll ever see. The wheel flanges are showing wear. They are inspected, and gauged, with an AAR wheel gauge. The worst flange on 491 is between a "0 on 4" and a "0 on 5", on the gauge, for thickness. "0 on 6" is as thin as you can legally go on an FRA railroad; it will take a long time to get there, but it is slowly working there.
I have a idea. If you do, do a coupler cam i would see if you can paint or put painters tapes on the inside surface of the coupler. Maybe it can show how couplers actually act and how it wears down the couplers.
@@dirtgrainsteel oh gotcha. I kinda do it in a hacky way because my audio setup gets in the way. I film a blank video using OBS studio which I delete the video track, and keep the audio track, and then I import that into da Vinci resolve, which is my editing software.
"Running the Queen Mary in a bathtub" It makes sense... but at the same time Long Beach has already been doing that since the 60's lol Edit: for the last axel on the tender, what if you tried strapping the goPro to the inside of one of the footholds on the back of the tender?
could you do a Couplers 101 video? maybe a comparison between different types of couplers used between US ones and European ones. it would be very interesting to see the behaviour of the different designs. awesome episode though, keep it up!
12:03 for the aake of the go pros it might be an idea to have a little play around with some mirrors and see is you cant record the mirror that way if the go pro get saken loose it has a better chance od not become dust lol
hey Hyce, could you explain how that intersection works at the beginning of the video? ive been trying to figure it out but it looks like the rails just end and start again on the other side of the track.
We have to unbolt the rails and re bolt them to use the other side. We don't use the track hardly ever, it's the only reason it's like that. On the list to be converted to a diamond; but hasn't happened yet.
I didn't realize how wiggly each axel, including the drivers, are on a locomotive. Almost looks like they'll fall off but in reality they won't unless a situation happens
The funny thing is he's never said anything lately, and he's the first to say something. Something tells me seeing it is worse than how it actually feels. I still want to improve though.
Ok. So, with the knowledge that the center wheels basically float in the middle of a curve, does that mean that blind center drivers are useless in helping a loco be more "flexible"?
They float in the middle for *this* locomotive. I am curious to film 346 when she runs again. I've got pictures of her hanging where she needs the blind drivers; so they definitely have a purpose, but I have no idea what it would look like on the railroad.
It would be cool to see if this applies to a different 2-8-2, namely the one at Sumpter if we can get her running (Although I know that's not convenient to Denver, lol). Or maybe our Heisler, although that would probably look similar to the tender. Could you try doing this to one of your little four-wheel critters? It would be interesting to see how a shorter rigid frame like that interacts with the rails. Makes me think of RRO Betsy bouncing around all the time. Also wondering how a larger 3-axle truck or an EMD radial truck would act around curves, although those are probably outside your ability to film right now. And a video on couplers would be awesome!
Can you just make a 10 hour loop of the wheels going over switches? That would be great. But also that wheel traveling left an right with that much play on the axle seems concerning to the non train mechanic eye
You drew your prediction wrong in your original one you had the pilot and trailing truck rubbing on the outside rail, but on the one you drew up the pilot and trailing truck doing the same thing as the #1 and #4 drivers
People kept asking questions about when I was going to put the engines in the game, and I no longer am part of the team that works on the game, and neither are the tech trees. Made for frustration only on my end.
Ok. The wheelsets are moving inside towards the shorter rail on the inside on left hand turns. It also has to slip. The inside rail because the outer wheel is traveling a longer distance. At a slower speed. Then the inside wheel on said curve slips the difference in the. Inside and outside. Rail. We are talking between thousands of a inch to I'd guess maybe 3/4 of a inch difference. Thanks for your great camera angles. Cool beanze🔊🎸👍®️™️
As for the difference in length between the inside and outside rail, it's simple math -- gauge * pi * 2 / portion of a circle. The radius of the curve doesn't matter. It is simply the difference in the circumference of 2 circles. A lot of the slip is taken up by the tapered wheels, though. As the wheel set drifts to the outside of the curve, it gets onto a larger part of the wheel while the inside wheel gets to a smaller section. On a gentle curve, it won't even get to the outside flange. Try rolling a tapered anything across a table -- it turns. And that is a large part of why wheels are tapered.
theres just no replacement for the real thing we would need computers with power and code optimization THOUSANDS of years from now to accurately ***approximate*** these majestic beasts
That's been on my list to film since August! Haha. Sitting down to do the big, 1 hour long ish 101 videos is always a bit daunting. Soon enough though.
As a lionel toy train fan I am always astounded when I see just how small the flanges on a real life train are, it looks crazy to have that much weight guided by such a relatively small contact area.
Well I mean typically it shouldn’t be guiding it
It is astounding, and looks so opposite of most early model trains for sure! Haha..
I'd love to see an in-depth on couplers, honestly. Great work, Hyce!
This was eye opening.
I thought all the wheels would be up against the outside, but after your last video I had no idea wtf was going on. This explains it perfectly, AND shows me why some of my models derail on certain curves. Thank you. Every deep dive you do, I find that I knew WAY less then I thought I did.
That's what happens to me every time I take the cameras out. I think I know something, and I really find out I don't....
I love that you have such a big variety on content regarding trains. Games, models, real life trains, friends / train themed conversations, and learnings. Your channel really is a one stop shop. Please keep it up! I think I have yet to see a video I haven't fully been invested in.
Have you ever considered doing a podcast where y'all talk about stories, history, and such?
We have considered doing podcasts, yeah!
Professor Hyce gives another lesson in train science. Interesting experiments, do more about more stuff, crazy train man.
Another interesting view of the dynamics between tender and locomotive is the foldplate over the gap between these, and how it moves. I've stood on those and it's actually pretty terrifying as it moves around your feet!
No kidding Jonatan, you should see how much ours moves at the museum... Lol!
This was really interesting! I've always thought about how flange and track interact, as well as what is and isn't bearing weight while rolling over switches, and now I know what some of that looks like.
As a side note, I'll never grow tired of seeing that closing shot of 20 and 491 at the end of each video.
A quick edit: I completely forgot to say that I would absolutely love a deep dive on couplers, and in particular what scenarios cause them to break.
Cheers, I'm glad you enjoy the B roll shot at the end. We'll have them both fired up next week, so hopefully I'll get to do it again. Maybe in snow. :)
@@Hyce777 Wouldn't that be lovely! Snow-dusted steam engines, right in time for winter.
Dude! Just wanna say, thanks for all this amazing content! I have alittle adhd and there isn't too many youtube train channels that I watch, much less actually able to pay attention to and learn from.
I can't help but think of all the folks back in the day that would have KILLED for this type of view of the running gear working!
That's my favorite thing about the channel right now. I get to study these locomotives like no one ever could back in the day. It's awesome.
Huh. Getting a good set of data shed light on what was going on. Who'd of thought? NIce work Hyce!
Having run a few 2-8-2’s over the years this is fascinating.
Isn't it? I was hoping folks would find this as cool as I am.
Thank you so much. This is really interesting. Even with out the comment ist I retesting. But the time you took to voiceover these and your explanation as well as how your assumptions were wrong is commendable.
It reminds me of the time I put a GoPro under my jeep and did before and after new shocks. It was a lot more work than I thought and a ton more time than I expected. It's unimaginable to me the time and effort you put into this. Kudos to the staff that gave you access and blessing to do this. I hope it will prove some value to their operations also.
I'll have to dig up my jeep video just to watch it again. It was meant for me to see so it's pretty rough (no pun intended) if I can find it I'll share it if you would like to see it
Thankfully for us here at the CRRM, I am the staff. :D Here's hoping others will allow me to do this sort of thing at other railroads as well! And yeah, I can only imagine... it's a lot of work. I imagine the Jeep footage was eye-opening. I know I would've loved to see what my front suspension in the GTO did before I rebuilt it....
As an amateur dancer, I really feel in for coupler cam - things like that gives your immense proudness for doing something right and mindnumbing shame for screwing up in the same time (as one of our teachers said "your never show newbies video of them dancing" and another teacher are obcessed of archieving EVERY dance session). And I love the vibe of whole video - it is definetly one of "kid in the candy shop" moments :)
And for the whole subject - I am sure that this whole info is laid down in some old books, and it is painful to think, how much of pretty recent knowledge we has to rediscover be reverse thinking and trial and error. Also, with this whole rigid base dynamics - it is crazy to think, how they constructed that things, given limited means for getting data..
Watching that coupler dance around is absolutely terrifying... yes, let's dive in there next time!
I live about 100 feet from a slow zone where they stop and start a lot, so I hear all manner of clanks progressing down the 110 cars of our typical BNSF freight train. What causes which sort of racket would be quite enlightening.
Also maybe a dive into thumpers and dragging brakes (sometimes I can hear one still screaming when it hits the last crossing, two miles away, and then I call up BNSF and tell 'em what I heard).
Interesting seeing the amount of lateral motion in the drivers. Great vid! Keep it up!
It was amazing to see this Hyce. I thought the same as you did for when the axcles hit the curve and how they'd react going through them curves.
But sad their wasn't any SHEEEEEP 😂😂
Thank you for another great and learning video 🙏🏻
Oh my, seeing that coupler system in action I get the whole train handling obsession. Oh my oh my. With the chain couplers over here I've sent shunters to hell for waaay smaller slack - and mind both buffers and chain coupler are spring loaded, thus catching tension/compression transitions way more softly than the rigid (?) mounting of the couplers you have.
i love the 2 8 2 K's
One of these days Hyce is going to show up to work with a bag full of cameras and be asked "Where are you going to mount them this time?"
H:"*Everywhere!*, You get a camera, and you get a camera, Everyone gets a camera!"
Couplers 101 would be really cool, like all the different coupler types and how they worked
A little late watching this as i was catching up on your RRO campaign with Kan but i agree with everyone else. More couplers, more Hyce and more of Hyce trying to break said couplers lol. Great video again.
Would love a deep dive on couplers starting from the beginning if you can find enough study material. Great video sir, and I hope you are doing better.
Oh yeah, likewise!
From chain-and-buffer, to link-and-pin, to the weird experimental couplers (I'm looking at you, Miller Hooks), to Janees, to the automatic knuckle couplers we have today. That would certainly be an interesting video.
@@sambrown6426 Oh yeah, definitely a lot of detail you can sink your knuckles into.
@@TheOneTrueDragonKing I see what you did there, and I respect it.
@@sambrown6426 Thank you sir.
Thank you for spending all that time filming. Very interesting!
The draft and buff of the cuplers video shoots are great
Love it. Makes for a great bedtime story. The clack clack and locomotive sounds work just like listening to rain.
A coupler deep dive? Heck yeah, yes please!
Another thing I'd love to see filmed would be all the vertical (i.e. suspension) and horizontal linkages between the wheelsets, which I found the most confusing part of the steam loco 101. Even having stared at such setups in person in a museum, I just find it hard to visualize what all these linkages and levers are intended to do when they're not moving. (Totally understand if that's too hard to film in practice, just an idea)
That would be an interesting video, definitely a harder one to film but it is doable and I'll see what I can do when we run during the day. All the runs now are at night so it's hard to get well lit footage
Wonderful views. Fascinating! Thank you, Hyce
I’d love to see a video on couplers and how they interact with each other including coupling both the knuckles and the draft gear
Oh hell yes! Love that whistle!!!
Incredible documentation! Thank you.
If you do more if these style videos, I recommend that you have a diagram in the corner that highlights where we’re looking because I am finding it really hard to understand the layout of the wheels as you’re talking. However, I really do enjoy the experiment and explaining what’s happening
That would've been a smart idea; thank you for the feedback.
I noticed that the fireman's side #1's sander when rail is away from the flange the sand misses the track by a good amount. It barley hits. and apparently as you mentioned the number 4 sander needs adjusting as it misses as well but much more so.
Yup, both need a little attention. For the #1, it's more the lateral and the curve causing the issue. Works on straight track! Lol
This is so epic now you need to do 20 .
Let's see how she tracks compared to 492
Yup, once we get her back in service and I can film her during the day I will do just that.
that was pretty awesome seeing the sanders in action too! :) though i bet that was probably just 'residual trickle' of sand lol
A lot of it was residual trickle; the one shot where it's blasting sand everywhere was when it was on.
Having a video for the couplers as you run the train would be neat, maybe one between tender/first car and another between last car/caboose to see the difference in how they act. Like if bumps like you showed here really translated to the rear or not. Maybe on loco and a car brake rigging as well, to see how that plays in also?
I need to get more cameras! Haha. I'd love to film each joint and watch the progression.
@@Hyce777 how many do you have? My suggestion would be four, and couplers only could be on 3 cars plus caboose for four cameras. I just mentioned brakes along with just to see when the engage and release compared to the slack
@@Ronald.Golleher I only have the two GoPros and one DSLR. I need more GoPros. Lol!
ALL of that coupler goodness, please
3:55-"piece by piece" is how everything got built... so might as well use that idea behind it, to learn us how the drivers/trails interact.... I live near a CN depot, so I was always curious how the wheels did so much work with what appears to be no larger than a nickel's worth of space for the contact patch.
When I was a kid I was obsessed with steam engines. Particularly how the wheels rotates as it accelerates. When I saw the K-36 platforms my jaw must've dropped pass the floor. It was from an old "Great American Train Ride" video.
i love your videos hyce, keep up the good work!
This makes me want to stick a go pro to one of the commuter trains I work on. Tho seeing how fast and rough some of the areas are I'd probably loose it
Yeah it's one thing to be under the train going 8, vs. 80... Lol
Now this is cool as heck. Nice job!
Yes more on the cuplers
Love this type of deep dive video and of course want to see more.
But this also begs the question if the museum is going to start using you for training videos. I.E. using that coupler footage to help you guys maintain better slack control for the passengers comfort.
I guess we'll find out! The weird thing to know is that, I'm regarded as a smooth engineer and not bumping people around. To see the slack moving that much still was surprising to me.
So, the conclusion is that the engine doesn't get rotated enough. That's the job of the leading and trailing trucks (as those are the only "steered" axles, as far as I understand).
The first insight that I became aware of is that the single-axle view is obviously incomplete. It only accounts for rotating moments that are caused by forces acting forwards and backwards on opposite ends of each axle. But there's also forces acting left and right on axes on the opposite ends of the engine. And since engines almost exclusively have axle distances that are several times larger than the gauge (wheel distance on an axle), the second type of rotating moment dominates over the individual axes' self-righting tendency.
The problem of the trucks not steering the train enough may in the end be down to 2 factors: Either the trucks are articulated too close to the center of the engine frame; in which case the angle those axes are steered to just wouldn't be large enough to steer the engine.
Or there just isn't enough weight on the two trucks. After all, the 2 trucks can only steer/turn the engine if they win out against the tendency of the 8 straight-mounted drivers to resist being shifted left and right, which keeps the engine from rotating.
Since you won't be able to rebuild the truck's articulation points, the only thing you can do to fix the under-steering problem is to move weight around between the axles. You'll want to move it from the 1st (and 4th) drivers onto the leading (and trailing) axles; and if you don't want to loose traction you'll also want to move some of that weight onto the 2nd (and 3rd) axle. This sadly WOULD involve re-machining of the fulcrum levers that connect the leaf springs. For those that don't know what I'm referring to: Hyce explains it in his steam 101 video at ruclips.net/video/RFo7rivpvNk/видео.html this time. Specifically the green component he draws at 32:23.
I wonder what the ratio of the arms on the fulcrum bars is at the moment. If you wanted to distribute weight evenly between the 3rd drivers, 4th drivers and trailing wheels, each fulcrum lever would need to have an arm ratio of exactly 1-to-1. If you wanted less weight on the 4th drivers than on the other wheels, it would need to be more like 1-to-1.2 (with the larger lever arm of both fulcrum levers towards the 4th driver). From the photo that you use in the steam 101 video, it seems like the lever is around 1.3-to-1 (with the larger lever arm towards the 3rd driver!!!). That would definitely shift weight from the 3rd driver onto the 4th driver (_additionally_ to the lever between the 4th drivers and the trailing wheels _most probably_ also shifting weight onto the 4th drivers). I wonder if this lever came installed that way around from the factory...
Unfortunately, remaking the levers is impossible (well, so prohibitive it might as well be impossible), and she makes it round the railroad just fine, so we'll keep her as is.
Cool to see how the wheels moves through out the lop and I would like to see more coupler camera
Thanks so much for the follow-up. Excellent analysis :)
I would also love a deep dive on couplers, echoing NEAFarmKid's comment here.
I still believe you could narrate for a pro documentary like Pentrex. Your voice is seriously good and you know your stuff. I could listen to it all day. Very good video, superb voice, very easy to listen to and absorb.
I'm glad to see you're doing better Hyce, and I really enjoy your voice and commentary. Superb videos, superb commentary, very easy to listen to and absorb the knowledge within.
You do good work Hyce. Keep it up.
Cheers Kerry!
@@Hyce777 You're welcome Hyce.
Also, I would not be averse to helping you out if you need someone to play with on your channel, though as someone who has limited means I would need to be more of a virtual participant, not an in-person one.
So if you ever need another "idiot" I'll gladly be your fifth. It'd be an honor. (Though you might also want to see how things work out first. I don't want to talk your ears off, which is something I probably will do anyway.)
Awesome video @Hyce
Awesome video hyse I would love a coupler video for me that was so cool to see. Keep up with the awesome videos my good sir
Not only does the engine want to go straight but the tension on the drawbar tries to keep the frame in line with the drawbar. If you stop in the curve then reverse direction I expect the #4 driver to be aginst the outside rail before it completes even a half turn.
I'd bet your right. I'd love to test that.
I was wondering if load effects how the engine handles the curves, or if it is primarily a hittch problem. I'm thinking more of the modern practice of mid-train power distribution.
Also, do you have a set schedule to change the tires, and do you change all at the same rime?
That's a good question that I don't have the answer to. As far as the tires; they all have to be exactly the same during rebuild; so yes, all are trued to profile to the same size, and when replacement time comes, all are replaced.
What are the holes for in the top of the cuplers other then putting falgs and double locking bolt pins you slide down into them.
Not sure honestly.
Small question (nothing to do with this). Does the connecting rod placement play a role in performance? I plan on building a NSWGR D57 4-8-2 Mountain class and it has its connecting rod on its 2nd driving axle. I however prfer it much more on the 3rd driving axle. Would you please explain that to me?
no making cameras go crunch!
an idea to consider for mounting the Go-pro on the back of the Tender might be to rig a bar across that is clamped in place allowing a far better angle of view.
Yeah, that would probably work. Might be challenging to rig up but it's possible.
In 04 conducting on the loop I counted the slack rollin in and took a step back accordingly. I always faced uphill to catch anyone who lost their step.
One question, how much popping slip is each axle doing to accommodate the curve? With the low volume and voiceover I couldn’t distinguish the popping.
Tell Mr Shabow I said hello.
Surprisingly not much popping slip. I will tell Shane hello for ya. Cheers :)
I know the tender on this old girl was originally behind a standard gauge loco, but what loco specifically pulled it?
D&RG 1126 / D&RGW 1026 was what 491's boiler came from. We are not sure which tender the one behind 491 came from. They picked from what they had, and there wasn't much rhyme or reason. This current tender is actually 499's tender... So, K-37 tenders are a bit tough to keep track of. Lol
@@Hyce777 Well that's certainly interesting. Thanks.
On the Gettysburg and Northern railroad there is one spot at a railroad crossing near Aspers Pennsylvania that there are two rails and I also saw the same rail at Tamaqua Pennsylvania near the yard. It is road, rail, mystery rail, road, mystery rail, rail and road. I think that mystery rail is from the steam days at the Gettysburg railroad days.
Probably guardrails, if I had to guess.
Are there any locos with flangless drivers at the museum? That would be interesting to see.
Also I love how this project opened your eyes to some maintenance issues 😂
lol, right? "Ignorance is bliss", right? Though, the sander and the ashpan linkage aren't a big deal. The ashpan linkage particularly. Moreso just funny that it wobbles so much... lol. But it stays shut, doesn't drop hot ones, so, all good.
346 has two blind drivers. I *absolutely* want to film them. She's just out of service for a few years... lol
@@Hyce777 is it really going to take that long for her service? I mean I guess it makes sense having to do it on the downtime rather than being able to have time or people dedicated solely to it.
@@Ronald.Golleher yeah there's only 3 of us paid in the shop, and she needs a lot of work. Tubes, some firebox work, mudring work, new tires, at least one new axle, new brasses for the rods, new steam chests, D valve work... it's a lot.
To answer your question of where is the go pro gonna go, it gonna go to the es&d if it falls off.
“Christian Schluter eat your heart out”
LMAO YOURE THE BEST
does this mean that the engine drifts through the curve?
And when will you make a trip to Illinois to film the superior SOU 2-8-0 (401)?
Just for you buddy. Hahahaha. It sort of reverse drifts? On a microscopic scale. If you've got a contact that can get me permission and all that jazz I'd find a way. :)
I would like to see a bracket on the couplers, to limit travel so at least three quarters of the coupler knuckles stayed gripping. It looked, to me, like a disconnect was eminent as the leading vehicle appeared to be rising while the trailing vehicle hitch was descending. Also, thank you for the comment on paint hiding the ability to observe cracks. Another lesson likely learned the hard way.
Are the wheel flanges showing signs of ware to any great extent, or is that not inspected? I was surprised to learn of the conical design for the wheels/tires.
The modern day "shelf" type couplers, typically for AAR F style knuckles, do have those travel limiters; typically reserved for hazmat service. When they were having the halfway bypass condition you saw, we were on a +1.5% to -3.5% grade change. That's about as steep of a change in one place you'll ever see.
The wheel flanges are showing wear. They are inspected, and gauged, with an AAR wheel gauge. The worst flange on 491 is between a "0 on 4" and a "0 on 5", on the gauge, for thickness. "0 on 6" is as thin as you can legally go on an FRA railroad; it will take a long time to get there, but it is slowly working there.
@@Hyce777 Thank you for the videos, all the time you spend editing them and your thorough polite reply to me.
I have a idea. If you do, do a coupler cam i would see if you can paint or put painters tapes on the inside surface of the coupler. Maybe it can show how couplers actually act and how it wears down the couplers.
Can't paint couplers, as it hides cracks. But possible the tape idea.
What are you using to do your voice overs in your videos?
A Shure SM7B running into a Universal Audio Apollo interface.
@@Hyce777 lol ok way over my head I guess I'm asking what like editing program are you using to allow you to do the voice over on the your videos
@@dirtgrainsteel oh gotcha. I kinda do it in a hacky way because my audio setup gets in the way. I film a blank video using OBS studio which I delete the video track, and keep the audio track, and then I import that into da Vinci resolve, which is my editing software.
@@Hyce777 ahhhhh ok cool!!! Thank you I never thought about doing it like that!!
What's the air line on the fireman's side of the tender knuckle?
Drag flanger line.
Thank you I have always wondered what that looks like. Like how close is to derailing
Not close at all, even with how crazy this looks.
Do you think that the rear end of the locomotive would move further out as speed increases or as the radius of the curve widens?
That's an interesting question, and I'd assume that it would... Need to get out there and test it some more.
Im to lazy to rewatch the video but i have question.
Do the center two drive axles on 491 have the ability to "slide" in and out when turning?
Yes, they have lateral movement, though it's not much. Maybe 1/2". The number 1 driver has more like 1-1/4".
Did nobody ever think about adding various advanced articulation systems like Krauss-Helmholtz bogies, or was it a case of KISS and wide flanges
I am not sure!
"Running the Queen Mary in a bathtub" It makes sense... but at the same time Long Beach has already been doing that since the 60's lol
Edit: for the last axel on the tender, what if you tried strapping the goPro to the inside of one of the footholds on the back of the tender?
Could probably get one wheel that way, but I had full axles for the rest and was fixated on that. Haha
Hyce, you are awesome
Yay new video!
nicely done.
could you do a Couplers 101 video? maybe a comparison between different types of couplers used between US ones and European ones. it would be very interesting to see the behaviour of the different designs. awesome episode though, keep it up!
Which has the small problem that European narrow gauge doesn't use the standard UIC coupler...
Next up on the list: Going down south to New Mexico to see how the biggest operating 4-8-4 works on the tracks
Yes, absolutely yes. I want to go see the 2926 for a multitude of reasons. Getting to film it would be an absolute treat.
17:50 the best moment of the video xD
12:03 for the aake of the go pros it might be an idea to have a little play around with some mirrors and see is you cant record the mirror that way if the go pro get saken loose it has a better chance od not become dust lol
That's a decent idea, but mounting the mirror is probably harder than mounting the GoPro, lol!
@@Hyce777 super glue and a stick ?
surprised to see sand almost continuously applied - or is that loose stuff just shaking out?
Loose stuff shaking out.
hey Hyce, could you explain how that intersection works at the beginning of the video? ive been trying to figure it out but it looks like the rails just end and start again on the other side of the track.
We have to unbolt the rails and re bolt them to use the other side. We don't use the track hardly ever, it's the only reason it's like that. On the list to be converted to a diamond; but hasn't happened yet.
@@Hyce777 gotcha, I figured thats what you had to do but that just felt so inefficent lol thanks for the reply!
Outside frame locos are the best!
I didn't realize how wiggly each axel, including the drivers, are on a locomotive. Almost looks like they'll fall off but in reality they won't unless a situation happens
It is surprising, isn't it?
@@Hyce777 truly is. Seeing a locomotive drawbar while it's coupled to the locomotive is fascinating too.
Hyce, the conductor wants a word with you regarding your slack action.
The funny thing is he's never said anything lately, and he's the first to say something. Something tells me seeing it is worse than how it actually feels. I still want to improve though.
Ok. So, with the knowledge that the center wheels basically float in the middle of a curve, does that mean that blind center drivers are useless in helping a loco be more "flexible"?
They float in the middle for *this* locomotive. I am curious to film 346 when she runs again. I've got pictures of her hanging where she needs the blind drivers; so they definitely have a purpose, but I have no idea what it would look like on the railroad.
You’ve probably gotten this question before, but what is the reason why the boiler just in front of the cab is white on 491?
It would be cool to see if this applies to a different 2-8-2, namely the one at Sumpter if we can get her running (Although I know that's not convenient to Denver, lol). Or maybe our Heisler, although that would probably look similar to the tender.
Could you try doing this to one of your little four-wheel critters? It would be interesting to see how a shorter rigid frame like that interacts with the rails. Makes me think of RRO Betsy bouncing around all the time. Also wondering how a larger 3-axle truck or an EMD radial truck would act around curves, although those are probably outside your ability to film right now.
And a video on couplers would be awesome!
I'll see what I can do. I'd love an excuse to visit at sumpter.
hyce did you run a K-36 too?
since I would be intrested how the lighter 37 should be roughter than the 36 and how they should be more comfy to ride.
I have only fired K-36's. They're both rough. Lol
@@Hyce777 and the 28 's?
Which BTW is a shame got most of em scrapped before they get back to their owners.
@@dark_one1337 I have not been on a K-28 while it moves. They are known for being the most comfortable though.
I'd be curious to see how different it tracks light engine
Me too. Should be easy enough to film that. :)
Interesting video always wonder how that work great video thumbs up p
Can you just make a 10 hour loop of the wheels going over switches? That would be great. But also that wheel traveling left an right with that much play on the axle seems concerning to the non train mechanic eye
Operating as designed:) that would be fun haha
You drew your prediction wrong in your original one you had the pilot and trailing truck rubbing on the outside rail, but on the one you drew up the pilot and trailing truck doing the same thing as the #1 and #4 drivers
Well I'm glad someone's here to keep me honest. I was focusing so much on the 1&4 comparison piece I forgot about the leads and trails, lol!
Hey Hyce I'd like ask a queston. Why are there so many train truck types out there
So 491 was a standard gauge locomotive but converted to narrow gauge right?
It was not. The boiler is from a standard gauge class C-41 originally, but the engine was built brand new in 1928, purpose made for narrow gauge.
@@Hyce777 oh ok
good science fun to watch how it work and couplers are very telling could totrcher your selfs own driving
w need to start up a fundraiser for hyce so he can afford to allow one of his camera's to be run over by a locomotive
I'm game
In the photo of the video why is that chain hanging down just randomly shouldn't it be hooked up like the other one is where the draw bars at
The chain is for the brake pipe hose when not in use.
@@Hyce777 OH ok
if you do a coupler video, you'll have to grab a video of the gravity coupler between 9 and 12 up there. ;)
I have never even looked at it... I'll have to take a look
Hyce why did you delete one of the tech tree videos for railroads one line because I like that video and I liked the articulated engines in it.
People kept asking questions about when I was going to put the engines in the game, and I no longer am part of the team that works on the game, and neither are the tech trees. Made for frustration only on my end.
@@Hyce777 understandable I only asked as I'm starting to forget a few things about those blue print engines in the tech tree
Ok. The wheelsets are moving inside towards the shorter rail on the inside on left hand turns. It also has to slip. The inside rail because the outer wheel is traveling a longer distance. At a slower speed. Then the inside wheel on said curve slips the difference in the. Inside and outside. Rail. We are talking between thousands of a inch to I'd guess maybe 3/4 of a inch difference. Thanks for your great camera angles. Cool beanze🔊🎸👍®️™️
Yeah, there's definitely some slippage going on. It's interesting.
As for the difference in length between the inside and outside rail, it's simple math -- gauge * pi * 2 / portion of a circle. The radius of the curve doesn't matter. It is simply the difference in the circumference of 2 circles. A lot of the slip is taken up by the tapered wheels, though. As the wheel set drifts to the outside of the curve, it gets onto a larger part of the wheel while the inside wheel gets to a smaller section. On a gentle curve, it won't even get to the outside flange. Try rolling a tapered anything across a table -- it turns. And that is a large part of why wheels are tapered.
theres just no replacement for the real thing
we would need computers with power and code optimization THOUSANDS of years from now to accurately ***approximate*** these majestic beasts
Hyce, Can you please do Grade crossings 101?
That's been on my list to film since August! Haha. Sitting down to do the big, 1 hour long ish 101 videos is always a bit daunting. Soon enough though.
I would like to lurn more about cuplers
My cat enjoyed this video.