These are the craziest Mythic+ Changes they have ever made...
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- Опубликовано: 24 июн 2024
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Im not against this model of m+ but if we are gonna have fort(20% more hp and 30% more dmg on trash), tyra(30% hp and 15% dmg) and the new affix that is what 20% hp and dmg active all the time why even have them listed as affixes? It just sound and is confusing. Why not add these modifiers to the code and just have it as a dungeon without mentioning affixes, plain and simple.
@@icswack6015 some one finally gets it. Glad to see. No idea why they needed to overcomplicate this that much. It's gonna confuse a ton of people doing their first twelve.
This is pretty straightforward. Under key level 10 or 12 gets variety, over that it's consistent week to week. It's not that complicated, dude.
Its far more complicated than what we have now. That's what I'm reacting to.
Yeah these seem great. It's not complicated at all. It's just new and some people pout when things are new.
"It is very complicated. I don't understand it. Change bad." lol.
I feel like blizzards goal has been attracting new players. Put yourself in the mindset of a person that just started playing wow in war within. You hit 80 and hear dungeons are fun. You enter with the base blizz UI. all you know is that enemies get harder as the level increases, so you think "oh, ok, so like GRifts in diablo." You climb to a 7+ and you feel like you're doing well. Try and 8 and suddenly the tank is getting smashed, the healer can't keep up, you feel like your abilities barely do any damage, and people are dying with the boss at 80% health. You have to tab out of the game to go to a third party website and read a flow chart before downloading an addon pack and watching 3 RUclips videos about affixs, dungeon routes, ans itemization. Do you feel like blizzard has met their goal of making the game approachable? I don't. There's a reason why vanilla was, and always will be wildly popular to newbies, and retail will solely be popular for people like us that have nearly 2 decades under our belts and haven't opened the blinds since installing wow via a CDROM
So it's consistent over 12 at spine breaking fortified + tyrannical same week? With the horrible dungeon pool, what m+ score will be rank 1, 2800? Based on what we can see it's massive spike in difficulty in pugs at very least.
i dont see how this is more complicated. its clearly much simpler. its just new. thats what your reacting to. Everyone that i talk to in my circles for pushing high keys is very happy about these changes
Its way more complicated than just removing the affixes, is what we are talking about here.
These are probably the best changes they have ever made to M+ since its inception. It solves numerous issues faced by the community and pretty much gives everyone what they've been asking for - weeklies are easier, push keys are consistent and incentivise playing every week because you don't have sanguine or bolstering hard capping your ability to gain score. Those affixes also add way more difficulty to a PUG run than more hp or damage taken.
Sanguine doesn't hard cap your ability to get score. At least not mine. But then again I played at a time when affixes were actually hard so maybe I'm just used to it.
I'm hopeful these will work out but I doubt it. People arent complaining about affixes because the affix itself. They are just not happy with where they are at in the game and making excuses to avoid getting better.
As is evident by saying an affix that is entirely in your control is "hard capping" you.
@@heythereguysitsMetro sure affixes arent the reason people dont progress but in the case of sanguine, while it never explicity failed my keys outside of specific scenarios, i can say that no other affix brings the same feeling of relief and excitement as the week following sanguine. i always get into the habbit of moving away from a mob when it dies as dps to avoid sanguine and then once its not there and i fully realise i dont have to move, im happy about it for that split second. i wouldnt say sanguine was even close to the hardest affix theyve made but man is it not fun to have in a key. specially as a melee
@@stuff4812 ya I mean it clearly wasn't added to be fun right?
Super changes by blizzard they pretty much hit it spot on. The only thing that should be changed is that Xal'atath's guile shouldn't affect bosses. Tyrannical already makes them long, and with even more more hp and damage they are gonna become even longer.
The double scaling sounds super problematic for all content in dungeons. Not just bosses, right?
@@heythereguysitsMetro Agreed, They need to cut tyran and fortified buffs by 50% if they are going to combine them.
@@heythereguysitsMetro i guess it depends on how the scaling is applied, if the 20% is scaled multiplicative meaning if its 20% increase from fort/tyran and 20% increase from betrayal then its really 24% increase in total so not super bad. I just hope they touch up tyran a little to fit this new style.
@@BenJonesart It should make blizzard better to aim balance because +10 already got both tyran and fort. So they can balance for those affixes.
This makes tuning by numbers a lot easier because boss health and affixes aren't changing every week for people chasing rating.
Some weird takes tbh. I haven't seen any complaints about this, until this video. Anything is better than the absolute garbage they spewed last time with removing the good affixes, introducing the new, awful ones, and keeping raging, bolstering and sanguine.
I liked that idea way better than this. There are also a lot of people disagreeing with these changes around too.
Seems like it's probably 70 to 30 in favor of vs against right now. Certainly not just me.
This is exactly what the community wanted, and it's a big win for the game. There's now some flavor and variety for low keys, which will likely have a more relaxed timer to compensate for the harder key affixes. This means that low keys will be more fun, while push keys will be more consistent across the board.
@@BillRiess I thought the community wanted no affixes at all?
@@heythereguysitsMetro that’s basically what we got. These affixes mostly just buff the dungeon itself. We have consistency, especially in higher keys. No more random bs affix that drastically changes how the run feels.
@@heythereguysitsMetro only the high end M+ players wanted no affixes to my undertsanding
@@nathanwood3110 and the lower end of m+ get affixes. It's a win win.
@@BillRiess as long as you do above 12 haha
I think the changes are really good, and a step in the right direction. It allows players to have fun with buffs at lower levels, and in other weeks have to control mobs when they get stronger at lower HP. I like the extra punishment on the death timer, because it encourages better play. If you take risks or play poorly, you should be punished for it. If you die consistently, it shows that the player has to improve. Even in a pug environment, people cannot be carried, and it shows that all 5 players need to master the dungeon, not just a few. By the time you get to +12, you should have mastered the dungeons, and now the challenge really beings. This brings great consistency for people that want to be challenged, and from week to week be able to push the same levels of keystones into their next keystone difficulty, without affixes destroying that. This is definitely a step in the right direction for mythic plus. Looking forward to Season 1.
@@hdmoviesource sadly those things don't match up with reality. We already have players doing 15s this season and clearly not engaged in the actual mechanics, and dying a ton.
This will likely get even worse when the first few weeks of your journey you get a buff from the affix then all of a sudden you are now expected to know everything and get severely punished for not knowing it.
50 percent disband rate this season. I can see it going to like 80 percent with these changes frankly.
the whole you would shine for one week is unfair. we have classes and spec like destro warlock or dh who would benefit literally every weeks
That would have been adjusted obviously. Regardless that doesn't change anything about my statement. It's not like the top specs still wouldn't be picked week after week. It's just now you'd have a shot at getting into keys you would never get invited to otherwise.
This is a fantastic change. It essentially creates a “heroic” and a “mythic” tuning knob for m+ communities. To your points- it’s large change that we have yet to experience. Therefore it’s more complicated. But I’d wager as this ages and continuous changes occur to change the game for these different versions of m+ - a better product will be created.
I hope so!
These are the craziest Mythic+ TAKES OneAzerothTV have ever made...
Huh? This is all pretty standard for me if you have been following these.
@@heythereguysitsMetro You went full doom on objectively good changes.
With these changes, there are essentially no Affixes for +12 Keys. If nothing changes week on week, a +18 is always just a plus +18. This is a good thing if you're into competitive Mythic Plus. Every week you have an incentive to play every key and improve week on week.
This allows more room for the things that make mythic plus good. Such as route mastery, stop coordination, class and talent diversity.
I don't speak for all high key pushers, obviously, but I'm going to assume those who do wish to push higher and higher would like to do this every week. Not a few weeks a month when the stars align.
eg; there is no amount of weekly improvement, gear or route optimisation that will make a Tyran/Bolstering week easier following a fortified entangling week.
Going forward, every player pushing high Mythic Plus should expect to see some level of improvement every week.
@@ant.johnstone I liked affixes so no it's not "objectively good."
I also experience very little tension from affix sets at the level im at usually.
The only ones that were particularly bad were already removed, that being incorporeal and afflicted.
But after testing this week I can say that they basically removed affixs that do almost nothing and put in affixes that are far far harder below 12.
Keys are too hard to properly test above 12 for me now but I'm going to assume it's going to be even worse there when bosses have such high health pools.
Youre kinda of being “old man screaming at change”. It’s actually really simple affix change.
Not at all. How can you compare it to what we have now and say it's simple? Where has there EVER been different affix combinations based on what key level you do?
When has there ever been two affixes that are both multipliers on the dungeon level multiplier?
How does that work in your eyes, since it's so simple?
@@heythereguysitsMetro "Where has there EVER been different affix combinations based on what key level you do? "
Every day since they introduced M+ into the game.
"When has there ever been two affixes that are both multipliers on the dungeon level multiplier?"
Every day since they introduced M+ into the game, in a way. "+8" and "Fortified" are both multipliers. It’s arguable that "+8" is not an affix, but still, we’ve been used to having multiple multipliers affect our keys since forever. If you want to discard key level in this, then I think the answer is "since Dragonflight season 1", has thundering added a multiplier on the keys.
"How does that work in your eyes, since it's so simple?"
If everything stays the same (a key level is +10% and Xal’atath’s Guile is +20%), every key with Guile is basically bumped by 2 key levels. A 12 w/ Guile is like a 14 w/o Guile. A 17 w/ Guile is like a 19 w/o Guile. Etc.
(I know, key level are multiplicative, so +2 key levels is +21% and not +20%, but it’s close enough to make this very simple way of thinking about it work.)
Big W from the changes for M+. Very good. The change at 12 is also great, removes the deadzone and brings us right into the challenge. (Currently +11 to +16 this season)
You think a 16 is a "dead zone" wow lol.
Guess I'm garlic jr!
@@heythereguysitsMetro You may not understand, the M+ pop are either sub 11 or starting 16+. Between those, there's a deep chasm empty. Most that are there are merely there temporally to start at 16.
@@Sethredto not what I'm experiencing at all. Loads of 14 to 15 keys every day I stream at least. Thankfully.
These might be some of the best changes I've ever seen Blizzard propose. Obviously I think it was premature to remove those new affixes already but I much prefer this particular line of experimentation. Sanguine may not have hindered my ability to push the highest keys but it certainly hindered my interest in doing so. I'm definitely concerned with some of the numbers they've thrown out, like tripling death timer penalties and, 40% haste on mobs, and having BOTH Fort/Tyran active. But as long as those are things that get massaged into a good place, I think this changeset could have the potential to make M+ into what people have been hoping for: Infinitely scaling dungeons with affixes that are consistent, that don't restrict group composition, that feel fair, and most importantly of all, that don't make dungeons more about playing the affixes than the dungeons themselves.
Super super hyped to test this out.
Hopefully it goes better for you than me haha
Love these changes! Makes my keys for loot different week to week and more engaging and then for the high key pushers a more consistent, challenging game mode, sounds great!
Ya not a fan of there being two separate game modes but we will see how it goes.
The point of this is for players doing 12+ you face only fort Tyr and a 20% multiplier for those 2. It's aimed for high keys to be very hard but you are fighting the key not the affix. This will make me care about min maxing to live take on a true consistent 12+ pushing ladder.
My biggest concern is that a 12 will just be extremely difficult to pug and the season's longevity will be heavily impacted by that fact.
A 12 with the new system will be numerically closer to a 14 is on live, but you won't have stuff like Bolstering or incorp making stuff harder so will maybe be more along the lines of a 13 for difficulty. So tldr keys will be 1 or at worst 2 levels harder after 12, so if you are doing higher than a 14 anyway your ability to progress the system will be no different other than you cap at 1-2 levels before you would have before
@@heythereguysitsMetroit will be a lot harder and the highest key level will be lower … I personally didn’t want affixes removed entirely but I am willing to give it a go. I do think that if the season cap is quite low (+15/+17) keys then it will mean it gets boring very fast.
@@heythereguysitsMetroI think the season will wind down sooner . Sweaty nerds will consume this in 2 months and wrap it up.
@@dmoneciro Ya, no real future if nothing changes and keys are super hard. Get to your cap and quit basically.
Great changes for m+. Very excited for the game mode's future.
@@scs-yt glad you are happy
If there is no sanguine I`m happy. Even if they return every affix ever made but retire sanguine I am happy.
You will be happy then.
how about necrotic? I'm sure no one misses that affix.
Bad take, these changes are fantastic
But I still love ur content 🥳👌
No such thing as a "bad take" just giving my opinion.
As a pugger these are going to make life even harder. And it's real bad right now as it is.
i think the -15 sec death penalty does force people to focus on the dungeon mechanics more and less on the affixes. it aligns with their design philosophy for making players play the dungeon instead of the affix.
but im already dreading the effect it will have on player/pug behavior. floor dps mains will be extra hostile on struggling healers 😂
Ya they already needed to focus on those things. Most people just ignored affixes.
Great changes, the imbalance in the affixes ruined M+ for many and made so I didn't want to play certain weeks. This fixes that. Now I can just enjoy the game.
It was mostly in your head. I have had no problem progressing week after week.
They needed the affixes so much that they barely do anything.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I quit season 4 because the affixes were so bad.
@@TWISTEDBULLET They were the same as season 3.
3100 MM hunter alt whore here. I actually think these changes are good... they might need to change where some of the affixs happen (challengers peril prolly doesnt need to start at all until 12's for example). I overall like the stance of make keys 1-8 reasonable and doable for everyone. 8-12 more difficult and anything beyond a 12 actually challenging. Also in the realm of 12+, not having to focus on a particular week ("push week") will be nice. Having some uniformity in those higher keys is a good thing overall. Not everyone is going to push into 12+ and those who do are playing for a different reason than most, so to me its okay. As is, there is zero purpose to pushing beyond 2500 besides bragging rights, so to me, its reasonable to make keys really hard at that point. They are trying to make everyone happy and this is a decent way to do it. They do need to do some kind of work on healers though. They have a difficult time and all this extra difficulty falls on them typically. Excited to see what all changes as time goes on, I don't pug a lot... I literally wouldnt play the game if I had to pug lol. So maybe you're justified in your dooming, but for my group of friends I think these changes are good.
Another great point you brought up that I didn't think of. Is KSH now a point of value anymore. Do they make KSH just require all 11s now after these changes?
@@heythereguysitsMetro I don't know the player psychology here well enough and I don't pug enough to know the state of pugging. I'm very likely to get all the current achievements rather passively where some might struggle. So to me, it would be nice to have an incentive to push into higher than 2500 other than bragging rights... but turn that around and the average player who doesn't belong in keys that high will feel left out. In the environment I play in. You're kinda trolling if you don't have KSM week 2 and at the pace we're getting gear now adays, its not unimaginable to have KSH by week 3. But I realize in terms of the entire wow population, I'm in that 1% of players for M+ and they shouldn't tailor the game for me... but it would be nice to have some better reasons/more prestige behind the achievements. So to me, reward difficulty. I liked KSM more when people had to struggle to get it. Made having that mount a bit cooler. but that doesnt make the larger chunk of the playerbase happy.
@@heythereguysitsMetro More concise response here for your questions: KSH is not a real point of value anymore. Its ultimately not hard to get (I have it on 5 characters...) and its just an achievement, you don't get anything to show off for it. and for the second question, not sure. Part of me says make it all 11's so that its achievable by more... or make it all 12's so they have to experience the full load of affix's.
@@Charlee4459 agreed
@Charlee4459 KSH also gives you the mythic transmog effects on the lower difficulty transmogs aswell, but yeah pretty much nothing
In my humble opinion removing raging, bolstering and sanguine is already a massive W. Those Affixes just made me skip weeks cuz of it. "Ooooh there is bolstering now? aait see you next week boys". I actualy think Blizz did a good job, and they also reacted so fast compared to previous beta's etc. If blizz keeps this up, its only healthy for the next seasons coming up.
It's encouraging to see them act with this much conviction for sure.
Yes I'm happy. This comment section is full of goddamn aliens.
Idk what that means, but glad you are happy.
@@heythereguysitsMetro that mean, people that is no of this world happy for a change that break the community and kill the Game mode for more player...
This shows a clear line between casuals and high end players. I personally would rather see a focus on dungeon mechanics and mob abilities. Make the dungeons memorable instead of how certain affixes affected your dungeon experience.
" I personally would rather see a focus on dungeon mechanics and mob abilities. "
Are we reading different posts? This is exactly what they're doing here.
"This shows a clear line between casuals and high end players." this part is very interesting and I hadn't thought of it initially. The line for anyone doing 11 and lower is not that of a non-progression player, right? Huge change from how it is now.
@@Therealpro2 I was responding to Metro asking if we really wanted no affixes etc. I wasn't very clear in my response.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I'd still draw the cutoff line at +10 because that's where rewards stop increasing and anyone going higher than that is doing it for score or because they really like the activity and want to do harder content.
This is way better than the junk from their last update and leaps and bounds better than the system we currently have.
I would disagree as a pugger. Sounds like it's gonna be real tough.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I can see your view as a pugger, but I don't view M+ as an experience best suited to pugging anyhow especially when you get into higher keys, so catering the gameplay for a less enjoyable and poorly optimized player experience makes no sense.
@@darkwhisperings4641 sadly a lot of people pug. Whether they want to or not, blizzard needs to acknowledge that fact and start considering how better to balance changes in that vein.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Blizzard obviously has the numbers and data to show how M+ is played, I just think from a design perspective it makes more sense to Design the dungeon difficulty around an organized group using voice chats and coordination of interrupts, and scale that back so pugs can complete it. Pugging should not be the default mode of engagement with M+.
@@darkwhisperings4641 it shouldn't be but it seems to be the way a large amount of players choose to engage with it. Especially lower keys.
This is a great example of the phrase "the grass isn't always greener on the other side." People that are happy about this confirm to me that they aren't good at math
Tend to agree with that.
These changes are absolutely brilliant. Consistency, easy to tune. Happy they got rid of the old crap. Difficult spike at +12
@@madhudson1 what makes you think it would be easy to tune?
@@heythereguysitsMetro tuning boss/mobs would be effective each week
@@madhudson1 Right, but tuning them would have different results for an 11 and a 12 right?
@@heythereguysitsMetro I mean tuning fort and tyran. Also there's no more inconsistent push weeks
@@madhudson1 I never really had inconsistent push weeks personally, so that's not a big deal for me.
The increased penalty on death is horrible.
Ya that one sound silly considering you are already making things harder.
Long time lurker, but from someone who has only been playing since season 1 of Dragonflight, and only "pushed" starting in season 2, I really like these changes. I, like you, don't care much about the sub 12 keys (although I think the changes are very cool), but personally I like the +12 they proposed. It makes me feel like every day I can "prog" a key, and I don't have to wait until Bolstering or sanguine pass to do so. I think having both Fort and Tyran active after +12 will eventually feel like the affix doesn't exist as we will get used to the health pools (whether that's good or bad is up in the air). Not a perfect solution, and anyone who is unhappy or doesn't like the changes is absolutely fair in thinking obviously, maybe attempting this in the "for fun" season in S4 dragonflight would've been great to see how it would go, but here we are. Love the vids man!
I certainly havent had any issues with affixes stopping me from progressing this expansion. These changes sound far harder than anything else thus far.
Thanks though, means a lot!
It all depends on tuning. For me it sounds like from a +12 keys will have a certain difficulty that keeps rising where the challenge is the key itself, nothing else. Before that you have huge variety in how keys feel between the new flavour ones and then tyran and fort depending on the key you are doing. Let’s say + 8 gives max loot again. This will feel very different from week to week, so it’s good for players who just go in for the gear. On a 10 for portals Tyrann/fort comes in to make getting portals harder since you need to „master“ all parts of the dungeons while still getting help from the „seasonal“. On a +12 (which might as well be +11) you start to progress the dungeons itself for the sake of having a ever increasing challenge.
The only negative thing I have is the +7 affix. This means depending on the timers either a full wipe in especially a + 12 means the key is basically over or the timer in lowers keys are a absolute joke and might es well not exist. So from 1 mistake you are forced to play entire keys again just to try and fix your mistake. They should also introduce the ability to „save“ your key from depleting somehow. This is actually my biggest pain with pushing keys. I would do it much more if I wouldn’t have to spend 60% of the time upgrading keys for no reward just for annother go because of some small mistakes costing a key.
@@normannseils3936 it’s tough to say with timers until we see how they are. I agree with him in this video that this probably isn’t the last iteration we will see for this, but with the overwhelming positive feedback about the 12+ from the community, we are likely getting at least a full season of something similar
@@heythereguysitsMetro Its funny you say that... while also having 6 of your current 8 highest runs in m+ on your DK beeing done on bursting weeks.
@@Caronry check the spreadsheet brother! I have similar keys in all weeks.
My best weeks are 7 and 8 right now. 7 was my best score week but a lot of disbands. That was the afflicted bolstering week, probably the worst affix week right?
Week 8 was the best in terms of disband rate and decent for score. That was the incorporeal sanguine week.
Week 6 was the busting week, and was our third worst in terms of disbands. Even 50 percent.
But after today's testing this is totally moot. The new affix is ten times harder than any affix in recent years. This season is going to be sooo much harder than ever before. Hope you guys like that!
Chill affixs that can be inclusive and don't require a PhD:
Enemies take 20% less damage above 50%, and 20% more damage below 50%. Alternate weeks with: Enemies take 20%more damage above 50% health, and 20% less damage below 50% more health.
Enemies with mana bars take 20% more physical damage. Enemies without mana bars take 20% more magic damage. Alternate weeks with the above, flipped.
All units and players in the dungeon have 20% more move speed, permanently.
A pulse goes out that interrupts spell casting once per 45 seconds. If you are not casting, gain 20% haste for 8 seconds (procog)
Just throwing out some ideas. I really didn't mind DF affixs. Bursting week made my AMS feel super valuable. Sanguine week made my death grip feel valuable. Incorp made my Control Undead feel valuable, and it felt good to press. I like looking at the M+ screen on Tuesday, moving some talents around, and tackling them. You're 100% right, as the community loses their attention span faster and faster they want things to be easier and easier to be 'rewarded' with minimal effort so they can call themselves a WoW player while playing the least amount of WoW possible
Ya another good point, the fact that there are no longer rotating affix weeks means class utility and imbalance within such is now hugely disruptive to pugging and invites.
@heythereguysitsMetro which, again, will make a dead-set meta for the entire season vs the possibility of rotating some classes in. Warriors good on execute week. Hunters good on high health week. DKs could flex into Soul Reaper for execute week, or maybe more burst on high health week. I'm definitely gonna miss playing with my build week to week. Content that doesn't change makes builds set in stone and it goes stale faster
Ascendant sounds just like the orbs from Sarkareth in Aberrus lol
I thought same too
Oh ya, never did that raid so no clue
My frost mage self is so happy with the removal of sanguine lol
glad to hear
My initial thoughts as a fellow PuG player are that 2-6 will be where a large majority of the playerbase stays and never really dabbles beyond. 7-11 will be a wasteland where IF people signup, the first full wipe will be almost instantly be a disband - 1:15 off the timer and everyone will just drop no matter what just due to the perception of the affix.
+12 and up is going to feel really friggin bad because if you grind your way up over the course of the season you get used to doing the affixes that give you buffs and now they're just gone a lot of players will just be done.
And I guess I just don't understand the +4 and +10 lines under "Keystone system summary". Or means x OR Y - do what is changing then on a +10?
Ya I agree. Sounds like 12 is going to be wildly different from an 11. I hate that idea personally.
In terms of the last bit I'm not sure what you mean specifically but both tyrannical and fortified will exist on the same key... For some reason.
it looks odd having fortified/ tyrannical at +4 and again at +12... Does that mean they will be both active at once? Or will we get double of the same affix which may be unlikely but still a possibility.
Yes they will both be active at once.
As an example if it's "tyrannical week" your key will gain tyrannical at +4, upgrade it to a +10 and it'll gain fortified as well. Next week is the reverse: fortified at +4 and then it'll gain tyrannical at +10, it just keeps switching which one you gain first week by week.
These changes are fantastic, easy to understand and allow blizz to tune m+ for vault fillers AND pushers in two different buckets. I'm sure the % numbers will get tweaked.
Can you explain why you think it will be easy to tune?
im genuinely kinda surprised by your reaction to the timer affix. i can for sure see what you are saying about what deaths do to morale. but you have to remember what this is replacing. its replacing sanguine, bursting, and bolstering lol. there has never been ANYTHING in a video game that has destroyed morale more than those three things my friend. nothing on earth. anything that promotes cleaner play is a good thing as well, or at least not as bad i should say. there are currently just way too many people expecting to keep playing after wipes, and i just dont play the game that way. not when its on baseline mechanics and things like that. perhaps now there wont be this strong expectation to stick keys out and so much pushback for leaving
They problem remains that without a way to „save“ a key from depleting to a lower one this timer thing is just annoying if you are not pugging and being forced to rerun almost useless keys just to maybe have another go to fix your mistake. That’s what stopping me from pushing now, having to waste 60% or more time upgrading keys to start to make progress again. if for example the first pull in a dungeon is very hard and makes or brakes the key it will definitely do it now, while before you still had the chance to pull more aggressive to make up the lost time. Now you loose almost a minute more from a full wipe. That’s almost impossible to recover with current timers.
My God you guys are so drunk on this affix hate it's getting stupid now.
Those affixes everyone ignores man. No one cares.
They do care about deaths.
I have NEVER ONCE disbanded a key over sanguine.
Enough with the circle jerk over affixes man. Time to start actually talking about the reality of keys.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I also never had a key disband over sanguine, because I never started a key with sanguine :D besides, my comment was about the death penalty which is objectively too much. To the point of Sanguine etc. it was just not enjoyable to play, because almost every pull and every movement in the dungeon was dictated (and made worse) by the affix, not the dungeon itself. That’s what people dislike. I really don’t see what you enjoyed about those affixes. Especially bolstering and sanguine just made your experience of running a dungeon worse, regardless of pullsize and keylevel. As long as they exist I (and everyone I know) dreads just doing their weekly’s.
@@normannseils3936 I actually agree with you about the keystone system. I've never been a fan of it. I've always been of the mind that it should be like the greater rift ui interface like Diablo 3.
@normannseils3936 So the question is now. Would you prefer dealing with sanguine or face planting over and over because caster mobs hit like trucks (already without these affixes) and regular melee hit like trucks. On top of bosses gaining a minimum 35% increase to their damage. Which would you rather prefer, no way to progress or dealing with a simple affix that just changes how you deal with mobs? I had 0 issues with sanguine, raging, or bursting. I don't like bolstering but didn't have issues with it either. You guys have no idea. Do the math and you'll see it'll be way harder when everything hits much harder every week and there's nothing you can do because a specific boss is a huge wall that you can't clear. I put 10k if they make the new season as tough as season 4 dragonflight, the highest key completed will be a 17 at the absolute best
Almost no one does keys at 12 or above and this gives them a way to easily tune 12 and above while also not screwing with the majority of players and it removes push weeks without any score changes. Under 7s become far more casual friendly, 2s and 3s not having tyran/fort will be huge for that group of players. 7s you are rewarded for learning what you are supposed to be doing as well as putting a huge risk vs reward on giant pulls.
10s reward you with portals. You have to prove you understand the dungeons completely if you want to actually get them and you don't have to wait around for good weeks.
Far too many people think everyone is running keys 10+... and they just aren't. Just completing all 10s on both fort and tyran isn't very common.
@@dirusj4006 you should look at the stats. There are far more people doing keys at that level then you realize. currently 9 percent of all players have all tens done. So even conservatively we can imagine at least 10 percent of all players have done tens.
Then you realize that so many players intentionally stop at 8 because of the loot changes.
Hard to say how many players would stop at 10 if that was the level you needed again but either way, it's certainly a lot more than "almost no one."
But either way I don't think this gives them an easy way to tune the dungeons at all. What do you think they would just constantly tweak the one affix over and over?
Possibly. But usually they address dungeon wide changes. That will be a mess where a ten percent nerf on a boss means a very different thing when you get a DPS buff in low keys and you have additional player nerfs in the higher keys.
Really going to be much harder to balance the dungeon, it seems.
I dont think this will get changed much if at all. Trying it out on beta actually felt good and clear to understand.
Really? Felt the exact opposite haha
To be fair it looks a lot more complicated then it actually is because it was explained badly in the Note (in my opinion). Overall for me as someone who usually plays around the "max reward" key level this seems to go in the right direction, still have some slight variance to spice it up but pretty limited.
A lot of it could have been achieved in a less convoluted way but once you actually grasp it, it´s straightforward and makes a lot more sense then previous systems.
Obviously, but still having two separate affixes multiplying on the dungeon level scaling is ultra confusing. Imagine reading that in game.
"Oh okay, fortified buffs the mobs by this much and this new affix buffs them by...more?"
That's just needlessly complicated to the point where no one will ever be able to figure out exactly how strong things would be meant to be.
Really don’t get ppl saying this is “over complicated” “complex” “how do I explain this to new players or pugs”
Get fkn real a twelve year old with reading comprehension will understand it easily
Okay. Explain how enemies will scale with both fortified and the new 20 percent modifier.
Start with 12 then extrapolate it to 15 please.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I don’t fully get the value of the question, do you need to explain that to a pug? I can’t answer that granularly without numbers until we see them in action but what’s hard to get about the scaling? Shit will be difficult on higher keys
I do think you’re spot on about the removal of dmg type weeks being a bad knee jerky change
@@foggy808 The value of the question is understanding the complexity. remember what you said about the 12 year old thing?
Its very complicated with 3 scaling modifiers. Far more complicated than now for sure.
I don't think it's all that complicated. I do not pug so my view is a lot different then yours. I was dreading keys in TWW because tbh I'm kinda burnt out on 4 affixes they are removing. This alleviates that for me completely. Having the same group every week this system is kinda better. My group will now have clear progression and it's based on the dungeon not the affixes. My concern is that it's kinda boring AF. I'm concerned the scaling isn't going to work the way they think it will because there are these compounding 20%, + whatever fort/tryran is, plus the other. If we have another survival meta this is just gonna bring the one shots even faster. I'm hoping that the whole "dieing = 15secs" thing is pointing toward a more DPS based key where the damage done in key actually matters, much like in shadowlands. The prob being I have 0 faith that blizzard can deliver this because the tuning is gonna have to be on point for that to work.
Totally agree with all your concerns. This will be better for organized groups, and that's a big issue for me too. Pugging takes a hugeh it here.
Having Tyrannical and Fortified active at the same time in higher keys IN ADDITION to buffing the dungeon by an extra 20% health and damage is beyond lazy. This will simply result in more one-shots, since now you'll be expected to chain Fortified adds into Tyrannical bosses to save time as most people do in higher keys.
Also, I cant help but feel this system will give even more anxiety to tank players since it is mainly them that have to tank through this bs. I'm unconvinced this new system can help new or returning players to dabble in tanking or even seek to improve since it will be too exhausting. Punishing players with Challenger's Peril sort of solidifies this.
@@michaelross499 it's gonna be a mess. People already suck at bosses. Now that every boss is tyrannical and buffed further just means we are gonna be seeing more disbands than ever before.
The question is how will anyone progress past 12 in this way?
It seems like it's probably gonna just go "upgrade eleven -> disband 12" rinse and repeat for a LOTTTT of players.
The issue with affixes is, they will ALWAYS create a push week. One affix will always be easier than another, even if that difference is very slim, it will lead to push weeks in my opinion.
I think it is bad design, when from lvl 12 you basically have fort, tyrann AND a third affix which kind of is both of those combined.
Also idk if it has been adressed in previous posts but are incorporeal and afflicted still a thing or are they gone too? Because those 2 affixes hurt comps way more than any other affix in my opinion. Classes like DK and warrior were completely useless for afflicted, probably other classes as well but those 2 come into my mind immediately
All affixes gone ya. Those were already removed.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Then I hope the bargain ones are really, really good and interesting. The two that were proposed sounded nice so far.
My biggest issue is basically the 20& added health on TOP of fort AND tyran and the removal of the bargains. It will result in PUGs playing from 2 to 11 and then probably hitting a hard wall at 12. Oh and Fort plus tyran on 10s, so portals will be harder to get. Especially with the increaded timer penalty from +7s and upwards.
I get that they want to make the highest of pushers be able to push in a more consistent manner, but as someone with a full time job that is not related to streaming or WoW, I know I will not be able to push at all probably, simply because the skill requirement mathematically now seems way too high between 11s and 12s.
Generally I think Blizzard here does not act according to what is fun, but is feeding different incentives. Mainly rio score and the communitiy's focus on said score. And I am not saying players aiming for score are not having fun. But to me there is a difference between enjoying a game regardless of outcome and people throwing fits because a non timed key lead to no score. Like the amount of whispers from leavers I have gotten, telling me the group comp or mistakes made caused them to waste their time, not have fun etc. Idk, to me that sounds like they play games on top of the game.
I personally could live without score, I have fun playing dungeons even if shit hits the fan. As healer I even prefer it, seeing how many mistakes I can outheal. it makes me feel like I can achieve more by putting in more practice and experience.
yup, pretty happy with the new direction
@@90VYD did you get to do or see any testing? Still happy after that?
I'm glad that they are trying stuff in a system that has been pretty samey since it's inception. Now whether or not this is a good cook, no fucking clue man, I don't have a phd. Also fun side note, this change was developed in a two week span. So they are capable of rapidly changing game systems. Something to remember for future.
@@Erik_Arnqvist ya the rate at which they got this ready is impressive. Absolutely something to take note of
I’m team no affix, I think this direction is going to be great for both low key players and high key players.
The way you were reacting to changes is how I’m hoping people like this warlock will react to it; had a warlock last night in a 15 uldaman die twice to first boss heavy arrow, literally back to back, we asked why he died twice to it and he goes “literally nothing I can do not my fault”
Bad players are still making it too high into keys in pug settings imo. That player should have been stopped at 10 where rewards stop.
I’m hoping players like that warlock won’t even want to go into 12s because of how high numbers will be.
I think this change provides fun and variety in the lower key range and 12 and higher provides the dungeons to be the problem not the affixes (whatever they are that week) + dungeons being the problem.
Let dungeons be the focus of difficulty in higher key where coordination on mobs and bosses matter.
I’m looking forward to this
Did you get to do any testing yet? its pretty rough man. The bosses are gigantic with Tyran AND the 20 percent health thing.
I think if you are doing 15s in this new system, you will not see players like that warlock.
But presumably, 11s will be easy and 12s will be a gigantic step up, so probably a LOT of people going to be upgrading elevens then disbanding 12s, and rinse repeat.
@@heythereguysitsMetro i havent done any beta testing yet, but the way you described it is the environment i want to be in. Dungeons being hard and HOPEFULLY like minded pugs who actually try and do their best individually (including having some prior knowledge of encounters).
I also hope this forces me to get out of my comfort zone more and try and play with consistent players and get in discord and strategize
@@jambothenerd8263 I imagine it would do exactly that so glad you are excited for it!
+15 sec death timer is awful. Ret-brains and hunters will be excluded forever now. It will be super toxic if you have that one idiot in a party who ruins the run. +12 onwards havein 20% + Fort + Tyr is just nutz.
Ya problem is you won't know to exclude them until it happens. Seems like pugging will get even worse.
Best education system in the world coming into play again for all to see.
Lol still getting trolled from two weeks ago huh?
These are some of the most exciting changes ive seen to m+ in a while. I havent seen the mythic channel in my guild discord light up with beta testers and people excited to play ti in a very long time. Seems pretty simple, what we consider "homework keys" get to be a little more exciting week to week, and if we feel like pushing, we get the consistancy. I absolutely love these changes. Simple and easy.
Also just wanna say "these people shouldnt be giving feedback" was a little weird. They gave the same feedback i gave and the same feedback everyone in my guild gave. Should we also not have given our feedback after beta? idk man these seem great. Are they gonna itterated on? sure. But are they fun an interesting? Also yes. No player out there is gonna say "no dont give me a kiss curse affix, i just want good old bursting back, god how i miss it"
They may after seeing it. Its far far harder than any affix they removed.
Looking at it a little closer, now. It seems they have included affixes that will not change the way you decide to do things on a pull by pull basis and got rid the need for unique abilities and spells contained with a minimal number of specs. No soothe or Mass Dispel needed because of an affix, no need to pull a pack into a larger area to kite around sang puddles ect. If this is what they were trying to do then it looks like they succeeded.
How "fun" the dungeons will be with these more passive style affixs remains to be seen.
The other thing you aren't thinking of is will also heavily nerf build and comp diversity.
Currently, you will see things like Evoker or Priest invited specifically for some affixes. And that can be very beneficial for breaking up the meta if those specs aren't currently meta.
@@heythereguysitsMetro dont think i agree with this part since most push groups im seeing today already have a shadow priest and an aug in them. In this current set up there really isnt an affix for one class to take advantage of like it is right now.
1 week to shine. 3 to be declined by mouth breathers trying to min max.
Yup, better than the alternative right?
I get what you’re implying. But I think the meta syndrome would pail in comparison. You would have some stack whole damage profiles each week not just shoot for god comp picks.
@@buysomerice all I know is people constantly invites picks like fire mage that are performing absolutely horribly to the keys I'm doing. Like every key people go out of their way to invite some one who just gets carried.
That's how backwards the meta chasing is at this point.
So you know for sure people would be inviting frost death knights every week that frost was present etc.
Good time to get score as an off meta spec!
Was a huge win for pugging.
This is the opposite. Gonna likely totally kill pugging.
I am very happy with the result. However, having the removal on Fort/Tyran completely would make this change almost perfect. Too many mob modifers which sounds awful when it comes to balancing. Also the added death penalty is boring but if every boss is a spawn point then I welcome it.
@@paneoce seems like a nightmare to balance to me.
@@heythereguysitsMetro with fort/tyran yes but everything else no
I'm happy. The vast majority of the playerbase never interact with anything higher than portal keys, so for them, this improves the current system by ditching sanguine/bolstering, which they hated, while adding actual kiss/curse affixes. For the high key pushers, they wanted an excuse to push every week, and this is one way to do it. This seems like a great way for them to experiment with what the high key community has claimed they want (no affixes) because it is easy to rollback next patch and doesn't affect most of the playerbase. Yeah, 15 second death timers are punishing, but keys timed with 20+ deaths feel super strange. I have quibbles, but this is the first set of changes that mostly make sense
That first part I don't think you thought through all the way. People didn't like those affixes because they made them have to work harder. The new affix will do the that even more so. They will hate that one too.
Overall good changes, i’m just worried about how boring it’s beyond 12+
“Push week” has 2 underlying causes that kinda got dodged by this change, not fixed:
1- Very boring affixes like Corporeal and entangling etc..
2- Huge differences/Tuning between affixes like bursting and bolstering.
I’ve been playing M+ since legion, pushing to the borders of 3k io, so not a causal nor an elitist, but i genuinely enjoyed the nature of the rotation and change week to week, it peaked at BFA with great seasonal affixes and just gotten worse since then with pale newly designed affixes starting from storming to shades etc.
What worries me with current change beyond 12+ is it could become stale and boring, but still a better attempt compared to all of their previous attempts.
Yup, 100 percent agreed. People will hit their progression cap early and then have no real hope to get score after.
only somewhat bad thing about these are on-death time changes, everything else is great. peril could be tuned down later, but it's not a dealbreaker for me. blanket hp/dmg changes are fine, key level ceiling will just become lower. consistent difficulty is great, no more push weeks and vault weeks
I'm happy about "no affixes"🙂
No affixes with four new affixs haha
@@heythereguysitsMetro "no affixes" is short for "no mechanically heavy or annoying affixes that makes certain dungeons or week a giant pita". I don't consider percentage hp/dmg boosts an affix, especially if it's always on every week. It will probably be harder numerically, which is fine by me
For the 1-11 bracket I'm pretty positive about the change. Maybe not as much for the 15s death thing, as full wipe will cost you 1:15 min now (but on the other hand, I'm kinda surprised you are against it, since in many videos you mention how the dungeons should not let people to get clears with 20+ deaths if they don't pay attention).
The initial kiss/curse affix on +2 seems nice, tyran/fort changes do nothing bellow 10, and on 10+ I think it's good to have unified difficulty.
The only thing really bothering me is the same as yours - gap between 11 and 12.
Blizz took step in right direction in separating casuals (in their eyes people only carrying for the power rewards) from key pushers, albeit the gap on paper seems to big, and if some of those casual players want to step up above just rewards, they will only have one more level to progress before potentially hitting a wall (which will discourage them even more from trying to push for fun)
They should just the "bargin affix" as is on +12 as is.
Since they want it to be entry level affix, it should not bother the key pushers, not to the extent which current 2 affix combos do.
I would agree. Just go with seasonal style affixes the whole way. Removing them is a crazy idea.
they are going to need to name the different key brackets or something. weekend joe is gonna do a +11 then step into a +12 and get his ass blasted. need something like Diablo difficulty Nightmare, Hell, Inferno brackets or something
Not a bad idea actually. An official naming would help. Maybe the keystone changes visually in some way too to make it obvious.
@@heythereguysitsMetro yeah even a simple green, blue, purp, orange boarder would be better than saying nothing at all
As someone who gets portals and then switches to an alt to get more portals, these changes sounds great. People were complaining about upgrading keys with 20+ deaths, well with more challenging death penalties that won't happen as much. You will have to learn the dungeons, learn the mechanics of the packs and use your kit to CC or pay attention to move out of the bad to stay alive, otherwise you won't be getting as many free upgrades.
I will be in favor of that change IF the dungeons are easy to upgrade via no deaths. Right now that isn't really the case sadly, but its more now the case than its ever been.
If we have a situation where DPS stop only worrying about their actual numbers and can start worrying more about their survival, I will be very happy with these results.
but that is just wishful thinking at this point.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I guess it's a chicken before the egg scenario. My hope is they change the rules of the game, they can hopefully balance around the new rules. From the post last week they seem really focused on the performance numbers of keys. Ideally they will adjust dungeon difficulty to make these rules before the season starts but at worst they should adjust week by week if they see key depletions are higher than what they would expect.
@@shrimpsniper5882 it's just seems like it would be impossible to balance both high keys and low with this new system.
These affixes will get changed... the problem are people on the WoW official forums, who either hate affixes or can't even time 10s, are being the most vocal. I read multiple rage threads on those other affixes that were no big deal, but they made them a big deal. "People will only take X classes on Y week," "My fury warrior will never get invited," etc., just pole-vaulting over rat turds.
I like the bargain affixes, wish they would stay and not removed at 12... then again those types of affixes are what the WoW forum people are asking for. I look forward to reading those hate threads.
Ya sadly people aren't complaining because they want changes that will make them happy, they are complaining because they are conditioned to do so.
They will likely never truly be satisfied, because their core issue with the system is that they are not as skilled as they hoped they would be, so they are lashing out at anything remotely standing in their way.
At least the difficulty will be with the dungeon instead of an arbitrary difficulty that week to week can lean out the player base. This way, the mastery of a dungeon becomes easier and in turn, over the course of a season will/should make the experience a better one as in a 13 no matter if you're in week 1 or week 10, an ability/health of an enemy etc will be identical, you'll know what you need for that particular ability, you can route lust better and in general, you're going to have a more consistent player base.
I despised Sanguine and Bolstering and think overall, this is quite a good change, they do need to make it so the Xal'ataths guile should not affect bosses and tyrannical maybe makes bosses hit harder instead of the flat HP buff but, other than that, I think baking the difficulty into a dungeon and having a more consistent player base across an entire season can only be a good thing but, the proof will be in the pudding and I think this is one of them changes that in the clarity of time will be a positive one despite some reservations early on.
Player deaths being 15s is one I'm more confused about, my idea would be, the higher the key level from a 12 onwards, 15s is knocked off the overall timer so, it could be down to speed of execution and cleanness of play.
@@TridgeTV affixes really don't have much of an impact on keys. It reads like a bigger change than it is. The math coming into play with the scaling will make keys far harder than before.
I don't think that's a net gain because it likely means you will hit your theoretical wall way sooner with no changes coming thus no hope.
There wasn’t anything confusing about it. Sounded pretty straight forward to me. From a dev point of view it makes sense to do a big drastic change and then chip away at it. I’d say let the testing go as planned rather than people’s asses puckering at the first pass.
Its confusing because of the design, not the actual output.
We don't need to have all these different situations at different levels to solve this problem.
ah man, my prayers have been answered.. Always found sanguine just super annoying especially in pugs im more than happy its gone.
@@terryfunk1728 glad you are happy
My anticipation for you to read the fort/tyr changes hahaha. At 10 we're going to have both fort/tyr, so really from 2-9 its new then 10 and up its the same. The community is overwhelming happy with these changes but I think it needs to get played out first so we know how it feels. The Peril affix will be painful in pugs since pugs tend to fail at using defensives or will feed the timer. I don't know how to feel about it but Fort/tyr tuning is going to be interesting, blizzard inability to tune in all of DF concerns me regarding fort/tyr on 10s and up
@@kozstreamstv ya sadly just way more to be concerned with than otherwise for me right now. The testing has not been encouraging at all. We basically traded very easy affixes for incredible hard ones that make already difficult always tyrannical fights even harder mechanically.
The theory bounced around now is that 12 is meant to be tuned for the absolute best players. So this is basically a lose lose for a player like me.
Growing more unhappy as time passes with this.
What are your thoughts after testing has started on it?
@@heythereguysitsMetro I wasn't able to test the old ones so went off what I saw in videos and reviews. THey sounded like it would have been easier to tune the old ones verses these new ones. I"m hoping to try the new ones this weekend.
Good vid, always good to hear your views. For me
Pro's
removal of sanguine, bolstering etc great
blizzard listening to the community (even if just a section of it) great
removal of the new affixs thorned , reckless etc
introduction of new affixs look super good actually looking forward to playing them
Cons:
Challenges peril pointless will lead to loads more disbands for no reason
Removal of those fun affixs for 12+ , massive gap between 2-11 + and 12+ will discourage players from trying to push beyond these
Having fort and tyran is wild at same time . Passive 20% dmg and hp isnt fun or imaginative
I think the complexity will be fine once it starts being used in practice but does read complicated
Ya there are just so many things that are written down it seems like way too convoluted for a fix of such simple origins.
People don't want there to be a push week? Make every week part of scoring. Easy.
I was liking the changes until I saw the extra death timer and then getting rid of the interesting affixes for the high keys. I never really had a problem with most affixes except for Incorp and afflicted as I've stated before. I do wonder how they are going to tune the tyrannical/fortified combo numbers wise, or if it actually feels any different than a normal high level key comparitively. Another potential upside I guess is if they keep ackowledging and trying to change things. Maybe constantly changing M+ every season will be enough of a "variety" for people to stop complainig after a whiile, and realize it wasn't ever really about the affixes and mainly damage spikes/one shots.
Really like that last part there.
I agree, that its very encouraging that they are willing to take huge leaps to address concerns.
I was just upset that this one was so obvious, but they did this instead.
I was thinking it might be cool if they just threw all the affixes into a pool and let people pick what they want, when they want. Forming groups specifically to push certain affix combinations and not having to wait for any given week to roll around with the affixes you really want to play with.
Everyone would just pick the easiest ones sadly. No one really wants challenge. They just want the score.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I don't think that's true at all. Everyone I know is interested in pushing different sets of affixes with specific comps. I'm not even playing the game right now but I'd come back if they implemented this to play with my friends again. I think more casual players will definitely stick to the easiest ones but there's a lot of players that try to push their limits in M+, I think you're underestimating how many people enjoy a challenge.
@@heythereguysitsMetro They could also employ rotating incentives on any given combination of affixes (lasting from a few days or an entire week).
I think with how much they removed variance for higher keys, having the xalatath weekly rotation would be fine as the main source of variance for keys 12 and up (other than the actual dungeon itself that you're doing). I could see them reversing course there.
Making fortified vs Tyrannical only matter for 4-9 seems like a simple way to solve push weeks.
Though I will state the obvious here - an affix which has only 1 option (Peril and Guile) aren't 'affixes' - they're just mechanics to the mode at that point. Why make the timer harder at +7 specifically rather than just save that for +12.
For Peril to punish death strats and whatever, I'd rather they just bring back the pillars to make skip strats not comp/consumable dependent. That was a really cool way to solve that problem.
totally agreed with all this. glad to see you!
I also feel it is over complicated and reading the notes I had a similar response. keep throwing shit at the wall and see what sticks? What happens when everything you stuck to the wall previous falls off and you just have a pile on the floor. Don't forget the key level for crests has changed too, is like 8 or 9 now for the high end crests instead of 6.
It does feel like they are chasing their own tale here. Well what happens when they evolve into Ninetales.
Seems pretty cool.
glad you like it
Man dying is already punishing enough imo. You lose all your buffs and have to go back to a respawn point (artificially losing time) on top of also actually losing time from the death penalty. Why would they make the death penalty even worse?
Ya I have no idea, this is the worst change they have ever proposed in my eyes, but I want to be optimistic that it might come alongside other changes that will make sense when we see them.
Hopefully they introduce better graveyards with he new tech they have ein delves where you have a visual representation of your „checkpoints „
I think it’s good but they should raise the +12 affix to like +16 or something.
Hmm idk about that haha. Will depend on how hard a 12 is meant to be though.
@@heythereguysitsMetro yeah I guess, i changed my mind after explaining the changes to a buddy who is coming back for TWW and we both usually float around 13-14 (new system)
That death thing is giga bad. 4 deaths is 60 seconds and the pug will disband lol. Super weird way to do that.
only thing i can hope for is a commitment to easier timers all around. so if you have no deaths you should never fail etc
@@heythereguysitsMetro same. Imma let em cook on it. I like them trying new things (though this would've been a good s4 experiment instead of expansion launch...)
I know a lot of very high end key players were happy about this. Essentially every week is a push week cause it's all the same. Personally I'd be bummed to lose out on the kiss/curse affix they just created if I were doing 12s and above, but I have always been a get my portals and chill kinda player so it wont matter for me. Score for the sake of score isn't for me, I'm definitely more rewards driven.
@@Rockforce80 ya I'm all about feeling like I'm making long term progress so I feel like immediately I do not fit in with this system. Hopefully I'm wrong.
As a forst dk who push some 28 keys this is a massive W. No more bullshit affixes that my class cant do... all that matters is damage and survivability
Right but as a class that frequently struggles with meta don't you worry this totally precludes you?
@@heythereguysitsMetro As long as god comp is not a thing (Like if aug gets deleted) it shouldnt be a problem, I top the meters on 90% of the keys am in haha the hardest part is really getting an invite
I’m not happy with it and I’m a healer. But we’ll see.
Its not great so far on the beta either.
I mean if all keys are tyran no keys are tyran right? :)
Not really. I agree that what makes tyran bad is the come and go of it. But would you rather fight bosses for 3 minutes or 5 minutes?
@@heythereguysitsMetro No i got it i was just referencing a incredibles quote “ if everybody is a superhero nobody is a superhero “
I'm reading it and you really need a phD to actually make sense of it. The fact that you get fort and tyr on high key (if I read it right) every single week sound like shit. Even though I hated tyr atleast I know I can pull more in the trash department on that week and have and easier time as a tank.
@@unsettled1821 ya that's how I feel too. It's nice knowing either trash or bosses will be the focus for the week. Now it sounds like everything is going to be ultra dangerous.
@@heythereguysitsMetro besides the fact that it comes down to tuning of the mobs so the starting point of a 12 doesn’t fell absurd it’s not that hard to understand. It basically means there are no affixes on a 12 and up (besides 15 sec for a death). What blizzard needs to do is find a sweet spot for the tuning of a 12 (or wherever the cuttoff starts) and go down from there to see how the difficulty feels. I personally wouldn’t mind to still have fort or Tyrann in high keys (with even scaling, not what we have now).
I'm happy with these changes, but I run almost exclusively with my guild and likely won't do over a 10
@@tomsmith1754 won't ever do above or below a ten you mean?
This is really a W . but hopefully they do some tuning around the tyran fort being on every key plus the 20percent damage health buff one 12+. i hope they remove the damage part but keep the health scaling imo.
I don't think they would remove the damage part, because then keys would not get much more difficult level after level. But ya, I hope they do some tuning too.
I am curious to know your POV in Quasii reaction to the new system. His video title is "THE BIGGEST WIN EVER IN 8 YEARS OF WOW M+" and your take seems to be the complete opposite? Or am I getting this wrong?
My reaction would be mythic plus hasn't been around for 8 years.
@@heythereguysitsMetro but it has... M+ was added as a thing in july 2016, its pretty much exactly 8 years now.
@@ZaumasWow game came out August 30th and then mythic plus opened two weeks later. So getting close at least!
@@heythereguysitsMetro Mythic+ was added as a thing replacing Challange mode in 7.0.3 on 2016-07-19 so yea as i said pretty much 8 years ago.
@@heythereguysitsMetro My point is basically that you asked "who actually is providing fedback to Blizzard and who wants those affixes removed", so I basically linked a video from a guy that agreed on the removal of the affixes so that you can comment on that. since you both have different points of view :)
One interesting not is a monk tank, prot warr, or bear druid on 12+ will have to deal with tyr fort and 20% on top of the fort + 1 of 4 weeks nore magic dmg taken
Seems like they may have made meta tank vdh bdk if u can live the new 1 shots and prot pally. Oddly my 3 front runners.
Class balance will matter a lot more now as well, for sure.
In the end is doesn’t matter since on +12 all is equal. It’s the baseline from what additional key level scale of. It might as well have no affixes. (If they remove the deathpanelty)
I don't like (most) affixes, and I also don't want these changes
I think it should have no affixes, maybe an expansion affix (but they will never have something like or better than encrypted ever again), and let the natural scaling from the NPCs level be the affix, increase the NPCs levels in the dungeon, they are all current_level+x on +0, make it current_level+x+1 on +2 and so on, I think that's the simpler thing possible, it's a natural tyrannical and fortified affix included in the game, other affixes are not increasing difficulty, they increase annoyance and I think that's stupid
@@seimeianri that's what I would worry about there. Seems like people still won't like this change.
I'm happy... harder dungeons plus higher levels required for mythic level rewards means M+ will finally stop being a lodestone around the neck of mythic raid recruitment. Now ppl serious about m+ can push their content and the ppl looking for a bare minimum vault loot piñata can be evenly distributed across the game modes.
The whole cross server pug scene over the years has really killed off both server identity as well as all but the highest level of guild community and I honestly miss actually knowing the ppl I play with as opposed to everyone having absolutely no investment in teammates... which I think is the chief culprit behind the "leaver" or "toxic" pug mentality so many complain about. Wow is better off funneling people with serious progression aspirations into organized content rather than pugs.
This is a really good point I didn't think about!
Cali crack is bad kids, look what it did to blizz, this list is massive creative brainrot
Its all thanks to the conflicting feedback the community gives.
You have heard of the phase "you can't please everyone" right? Well Blizzard is trying to do it.
odd that it only goes to 12 and then everything changes. Not sure if I like that
Ya I don't like that at all.
It should be 11 if portals are 10. don’t know where the 12 comes from. And they should remove Tyrann and fort for the combined overall buff.
@@normannseils3936by having both you are effectively removing both
It would have been a great opportunity to try some of these out in season 4... I can't say the rushed release date of TWW amidst all these roller coaster changes for M+ and the various specs gives me much optimism going forward.
Really? To me it seems like that indicates that they are more stable in their development. In the past, changes like this would have just been delayed for season 2.
@@heythereguysitsMetro This is knee-jerk-reaction behavior. It may be an overall win for M+, but basically the guy(s) who put out that poorly thought out affix system last week had to be immediately told "uh, no don't do that" and make changes. So, no, not a lot of confidence in that team to make plans/decisions.
@@jeffm9340 right this always happens though, is what I'm saying. They did the same thing with thundering in season 1 and ultimately failed to find a version people loved. So instead of doing what they did in season 2 and onwards they just shipped it in the bad state.
The affixes they just removed would still be in, but they aren't. So that tells me they are confident they can make big, unique changes to the game more regularly now. And that should be a win for everyone.
Only thing i like is that they removed bursting, it was just annoying in pugs watching dps fall over because they didn't hold. But the rest of this? wtf.
its a wild set of changes for sure.
From a +12 and up (which honestly should be +11 to make more sense) this is just a very convoluting way to say there are no affixes. (Except the stupid death panelty).
They punish all community...before was 20% magic damage on some caster on week; now is 60% damage to all dungeon plus 30% on bosses...they just kill pug keys...player will do delves or raid and avoid M+
Im worried these changes will kill pugging too for sure.
What do you mean? And what does it have to do with magic damage? All those changes creates is a key bracket that has basically no affixes (besides punishing deaths). It also makes every increase in keylevel over 12 more challenging since the scaling is more emphasized. It doesn’t punish anyone more or less than others.
@@normannseils3936 tyranical and forti are affixe, one do 40% extra damage and 30% Heath to mods and the other is on bosses, that go on top off the key scaling damage. Before you only have 1 affixe at level 4 example now You have 2 high impact You miss 7 or 10 of 20 orb plus fort or tyranical is wipe in most scenario, becouse the dungeon where overcharge having the other affixes in mind...the buff for player is 1% Haste per stack but to mods is 20%. Blizzard is terrible at tuning content btw
@@ReviakRPG They are not affixes if they are both there all the time. It’s just relative. Yes, they exist compared to a +7 or whatever, but if they are there all the time they basically don’t exist. Also what orbs are you talking about?
Why at +12? "Rewards" stop at 10, which is the only thing 90% of the player base is motivated by. So, at 12, it's gonna shoot up in difficulty with nothing to obtain in sight? It's gonna be awful to pug when ppl can get a title for collecting orbs then ditch the system entirely.
The dungeon timer loss will make people's patience 3x thinner. We see people fly off the handle for one death, losing 5 seconds. Imagine a team wipe, lose a minute:fifteen immediately then have to run back. Immediate disband.
What are you currently obtaining by doing higher keys than 10s? I’m confused.
@Joe-zd9xw Nothing, that's the point. Past 10 it's just 'number go up' and bragging rights. I mean, I like getting to 3k just cuz it feels like a good rounded number. Last season I pushed to 3150 on BDK just to see how far I could go. No rewards, but I like being challenged in wow and playing my class the best I can. However, again, 90% of the community is motivated by transmog/titles/mounts etc. So, if there's no carrot at 12 and above, PLUS a sharp difficulty spike (20% more mob health and damage) why would ppl participate? Forming groups thru LFG will get harder. (UNLESS) as mentioned at the bottom of the post, they retune io to make it so you need to have all 12s completed for the title, which I'd encourage. Hell, DF season 4, a +8, (myth piece vault slot) DOESNT EVEN HAVE THE THIRD AFFIX. So people can get fully geared in myth gear WITHOUT EVEN SEEING sanguine/incorp/bursting. Wtf is that? Ha
@@FightingBlIrish Ok, and why would people participate with the current system?
I'm confused why its not 11 instead 12 too.
@@FightingBlIrish yeah but I feel like thats a whole different discussion in terms of rewards going over 10s. Right now we get nothing apart from bragging rights and egos lol.
I was excited at first... then I logged in to test. Ascendant is so bad. WTF is this affix?
Those Raz orbs were fun weren't they? Wait til you deal with the 20% health and damage increase
@@Boss-ot1iy I'd much rather deal with that.
@@rokman5000 No you don't. You think you do until you actually deal with it
@@Boss-ot1iy How can you possibly think you know what I want. I'd much rather do a flat percentage increase over anything that can screw me over because of the way it's designed.
Ya, its soooo hard. The funny part about all this is, everyone begged for those easy ass affixes to be removed, but none of them did a single thing to a boss.
Now we have a very hard affix that barely buffs you, and have to deal with it constantly during complicated boss mechanics.
Gonna be a total mess.
Other then tyrannical over 12 getting double dip damage buffs. Amazing changes 9/10
yup, the double dipping scaling is REALLY worrying me.
I mean if your are already doing higher keys this changes nothing other than adjusting the baseline scaling and removing annoying affixes. It makes each key level and the subsequent upgrades feel more impactful. Pretend nothing below 12 exist and there are no affixes anymore.
You are going to get some more good content if they they really increase the penalty for dying. The rest of this post , ill just have to play test it to see. Right now all this is just fluff that will go up and down in % as they patch and tune it.
Will be testing it today if everything is stable!
This sounds awful to me. The bargain affix sounds interesting but pointless because it’s only on the low keys. Bring back all new dungeons at beginning and seasonal affixes.
I was looking forward to the bargain affix on the high keys! :/
I'm glad to see your opinion on Challenger's Peril. I feel like a lot of people already suffer from anxiety when pugging in M+, and I feel like this affix just amplifies that feeling, people already worrying about dying to mistakes, but this affix is making it even worse. I don't think this adds extra challenge to overcome but just extra frustration and more fuel for leavers. Leaver situation is already bad as it is.
Yup 100 percent agreed and also love how you worded it. The anxiety element is not something I had even considered, but it will be way worse now.
The leaver situation would be instantly fixed if keys won’t deplete anymore. That’s the change I want to see. Would make me infinitely more motivated to push.
If fortified and tyrannical are both active, why not remove both and just increase dungeon scaling? The one affix that you can outplay and receive a buff is great and definitely the way they should go with these things
Variety up until 10. One or the other until 10, then both afterwards. Seems simple.
Yup I agree entirely. Going to be really weird seeing 4 affixes that effectively have zero counterplay and do not change the dungeons weekly.
@@heythereguysitsMetro just wondering how stale it will get week after week with no changes in affixes? I know a lot of people don’t like affixes but at least it made you think and play different on those weeks and now nothing will ever change.
@@beebeemw Yup, this was the main reason they needed to keep affixes.
Now you will hit your progression wall way quicker with nothing ever changing so no real hope for success at a later date.
Punishing players even harder on a 7 is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. You only think pugs are toxic now. Now, this isn't a bad change for coordinated 5-man groups that can flow through keys easily. But for pugs, this is awful
Yup, I agree. Pugs get hit real hard here.
It all depends on the timer tuning. For me it sounds bad overall. Single Deaths and the subsequent loss of dps are already sometimes breaking keys. This will make it even worse. And it punishes you even more for playing classes that have weak defensives and devalues battlerez and ankh. For me this will create a meta of classes with cheat deaths or very strong defensives to prevent deaths in the first place.
This is insane.... people at blizzard are crazy. Put even more responsibility on the tank, give the dps even more reason to blame the tank for buffing the mobs.
Both tyranical and fortified!! Wtf. They are catering to the top 1% to make a "more consistent gameplay" ingorning the other 99%.
Out of curiosity, yoo think 99% of the mythic plus player base will get to a 12?
@@lokihd123 I think what he is saying here is the only people who got what they wanted was the top of the top. Not even 1 percent. Talking like .05 percent basically.
There's no guarantee the Xal'atath's Bargain buff will come from a swirly, it could be a soak that goes on nearby mobs if a player isn't in it.
@@oscarwithers4599 it's totally different than that actually. Check it out on wowhead. Nothing like it sounds on the post.
@@heythereguysitsMetro oh wow you're right. Seems like you'll get most of the buff just as a consequence of using ccs on trash
I'm hoping this will at least cause IO to mean something again. Too many high io people are absolutely garbage at the game. I'm nothing amazing myself but people with 2.9 to 3k should not play like they've never been in a keystone before.
That said im not super excited for tyranical to always be on. I'd rather at this point they just tuned the dungeon itself and dropped fort and tyranical. especially with guile buffing everything anyway
I doubt keys sub twelve will ever be hard enough that all five people need to have mastered it sadly.
Complicated BS!
Yup, this is what you get when you ask for stuff that doesn't line up with how the game works!