Cheap Chinese lathe inserts tested to destruction
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2019
- I bought 2 boxes of DCMT lathe inserts. One with blue nano coating the other with presumably TIN coating (Titanium Nitrate). The blue ones are 3 times as expensive as the gold ones, but are they any better? Let's find out.
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After 100's of personal tests I came to the conclusion Blue Nano is just a gimmick for marketing! Thanks for posting and take care!
At 28:58 ...He's getting bored with his own video. I'm growing to love this guy, just for his delivery and honesty, if not his technical expertise.
I liked the way you didn't give up and recognized how to continue the test and even set it up using the holes to create intermittant cuts (that carbide hates). The microscope was great too.
Lol…. You are a good video maker… i enjoyed it.. keep it up… you may be bored but I’m not! You provided me humor
I’m loving this .. just listening to you in the back
Ground and having a laugh .
Love your deadpan scynicism. Good video. Merry Christmas. 😎
Hi RM . Great test buddy. Liked,Shared,Added to playlists. All my best.
Good video, informative and enjoyable. Thanks. Ade
Very fine colse up shots, as usual. Learned a lot about inserts from this video. You are now a proffessional machinest, almost.
Yeah, a professional time waster maybe :)
@@Rolingmetal lol
Nice, I personally am very satisfied with Banggood's :cheap" inserts. Never regretted buying them.
I enjoyed the dry humour.
It would be interesting to compare branded inserts (e.g. Sandvic) with those under hour microscope
That would be an interesting video. Maybe you should send Sandvik a link to to this video. You never know :)
@@Rolingmetal whats your address, i have a couple spares i could send to you :-)
Wow! Thanks!
What a great watch, thanks. I try to use the dcmt07 inserts where I can because of the low cost and have gone to the Chinese grade VP15TF as for what I do they last great. I was pretty impressed on how these stood up to the heavy intermittent cuts, was sure they were going to disintegrate. Thanks again for the great watch.
I tried these "mitsubishi" inserts, couldn't make a single pass on cast iron, the corner simply dissapeared
the choice depends on what you are using these inserts for. sometimes cheap is quite enough, and sometimes these become even more expensive that quality staff.
Very informative thanks for sharing
Your welcome
Good one. Thanks
Regarding the driving you crazy, it's a short trip. One thing you proved very conclusively was interrupted cuts are not good for carbide. It would have been interesting to see how these inserts performed without the interrupted cuts. I really liked practical demo regarding why you should not attempt cutting from the inside to outside without checking for proper relief. Good video!
Without an interrupted cut I would probably still be filming this video :)
H,i interesting results, light cuts would no doubt give a better finish and especially with cutting oil. As you have roughing cuts and speeds for metal removal and finishing cuts for a much better finish, well done as always nice video, your humour is cool.
That chunk missing on Mr Gold looks like "self sharpening" You could market that!
That would be a great marketing pitch.
The 'chatter' was actually the sound of the interrupted cut from those bored holes if you didn't realize it. (I skipped around and didn't hear if you mentioned it) Inserts that are not designed for an interrupted cut will also take more damage than a tough insert that was designed for impact..
The more fair comparison is to do it on a non interrupted surface so you get true wear and not impact wear.
The chatter always came after the interrupted cut.
DCMT are finishing inserts, high speed low feed, it's pointless using that at the opposite.
You better check them on a bigger diameter at 200~250min cutting speed, without interrupted cut and with a feed of max half the tip radius.
That kind of test is good for a CNMG/SNMG P25/P30 carbide.
That face cut across the holes is a good test and your not-so-rigud lathe is a good test bed simulating worst case conditions.
The "chipping" you refer to looks like normal flank wear to me. It would be nice to test both inserts to capacity cuts in a rigid powerful machine but I think your careful comparison test shows there's not much practical difference between inserts for light duty use except price.
I've been buying cheap inserts for years and gotten good service from them but I've often wondered what I've been missing had I spent the money. My former employer was a thrifty man who tested brand Vs import carefully and came to the same conclusions you did. He stuck with the brand name inserts for difficult materials as there was some advantage in terms of durability and consistsncy. Otherwise, he used the cheap import inserts for general use and I've been following his practice for years now. They seem to hold up well even in 10 HP cuts in Rc 20 alloy steel but not so much in high nickel stainless and forging scale.
Thank you. That was very informative.
Forrest, I appreciate your confirmation as to the cost effective use of cheap inserts. Though not a member of any of the popular machinist sites, I follow them closely. Never missed the opportunity to read your informative posts. ( Sadly infrequently these days, by the way.) Cheers from a fellow Puget Sounder.
Thanks for that information/confirmation Forrest Addy. It will certainly help some amateur out :)
Just found you and I'm loving the channel! You got yourself a new subscriber :)
Welcome to the tool temple :)
Our blue nano didn't last turning one cut along 150mm of EN1A. a very free-cutting steel
Very good video. I am curious to see how the 'sharper' silver inserts hold up to the blue nano and the gold. Some advertise them for aluminum but I have had good success on stainless when TIN coatings would not even begin to cut. Also have always been curious if the Kenametal etc sold by Ali and Banggood are actually that brand (perhaps coming out the back door of the factory that really makes them for the different brands??) or maybe they just steal the name? The brands themselves certainly aren't going to tell you that they are theirs and that you can get their quality for a fraction of their price! On my budget I can't afford to buy one of their inserts to compare!! So top shelf or not the chinesium is what I use. Thanks again for the microscope shots of the wear. Going to subscribe as this is one of the most 'real life' videos and useful in a long while!
I think a lot of the damage to both tips are due to the interrupted cuts going through those two holes. If you notice there is a lot of swarf hanging out of the hole and is still actually connected to the work piece. I think these are getting caught between the insert and the work piece and causing the insert to break down. I would also like to see Mr Blue Nano be used on some really hard tough material. Like a car drive shaft or axle shaft to give it a real work out, in fact the gold one too.
The chatter is caused by the change in cutting speed as you get towards the centre, variable speed lathes can help eliminate this.
To make it more interesting try turning a chunk of tungsten carbide and run it backwards for good measure, Obviously with no cutting oil. Set it to about 2mm cut. Wont take long to figure out which one is tougher.
Inserts will probably weld themself to the test piece
@@Rolingmetal Well it would certainly go catastrophic and fast! But that kind of video is a good recipe for getting watchers. People love to watch stuff go wrong and get destroyed. The example is the hydraulic press channel with millions of viewers
I manage to unintentionally destroy enough stuff without a hydraulic press :)
I got a little nervous with your biggest cuts when the bar was long and after each cut I settled down as the bar got shorter. Big interrupted cuts... in a 3 jaw Chuck with the bar stuck out too far can end up seriously bad. 3 jaw chucks are dangerous. Very well made video... you made a boring job look very interesting 👏🏻👏🏻👍
Thanks man. Have you ever tried Chinese carbide for one of your big trepanning jobs?
@@Rolingmetal I only use sandvik wcmx 1020 grade.. especially on super alloys like 718. Nothing comes close to them. I'm at work this very moment making a trepanning tool to cut a 9" hole thru 50" long. I'm making a video making it.
I will be glad if you was making a comparison video between cheap Vs expensive inserts. I never bought expensive inserts, i always use this cheap Chinese.. so Iam wondering how it will be the results, with expensive ones.
Thanks, and keep turning.
Maybe this video finds it way to some high end manufacturer and they will send me some. :)
Personally I don't have for money for the good stuff. I already spend a whopping 1.50 Euro on this video :)
I am new to this lathe world but have noticed that it seems when the stuff gets nice and hot it cuts better. With carbide I tend to let her heat up and not lubricate it (smoke sets off the smoke detector in my apartment) and chatter tends to settle down but I may just be hallucinating like I do sometimes when working on the lathe.
When thing get nice and hot I usually burn up my piece of ground HSS :)
Thanks. I have the same inserts, and i think the blue nano is just a gimmick. I find i get a better cut from tne gold with a hard and soft metals
Interesting. Thanks.
The cost difference must be to pay for the consultant to come up with the name 'blue nano'. At least cheap import inserts allow you to change out for a fresh edge for finishing passes (without taking out a mortgage).
To be honest they worked better then expected.
PS: Be interesting to know if there is any appreciable difference in the chinese brands themselves. I haven't noticed any marked difference but I rarely get the same brand it seems. Their markings and search engines don't make repeat buying possible in most cases unless you stumble on the ones you want.
I find that at lower speeds(below 850 rpm)my carbide tips run better with no lube at all.Plus I heard somewhere that its better dry or flood cooling as they don't like big temp changes,as in being sprayed with WD while making a cut.I'm buying more Chinesium tools and bits thanks to your reviews and I can't really see much difference in them from the over-priced home market stuff.
I think spraying WD might cause thermal shock.
Thank you for helping me get rid of another useless half hour of my life, i had no need for it anyway.
You really have a talent for waisting time 😊, you make it look so easy, i also try to waste other peoples time, but allways fail after only 5 minutes., whts your secret?, can i take a class with you? (Dont answer that, i know the answer... ‘a waste of time’).
Seriously, nice video, keep em coming!
I might be a youtube wannabe machinist, but I'm a professional time waster and screw-up :)
Mr Gold only rubbed because he’s not a boring bar :)
Generally carbide doesn’t handle interrupted cuts very well.
The chatter will get less as the bar gets shorter. (But you realised that)
I think the chatter is coming from somewhere else. Maybe the bearings or perhaps the chuck backing plate.
It could only be the backing plate if it is actually loose which I doubt.
If you put a bar in the chuck and a dial indicator stuck to the bed with the pointy bit (you have me saying that now) on the chuck if you wiggle the bar how far does the chuck move up and down. You could do something similar to measure the end play. Your end play is probably adjustable.
I’m assuming your lathe doesn’t have tapered bearings. Does it have split bearings? That is split horizontally. If so they usually have shims between the halves of the bearing housing.
If all of your shims have already been removed you could mill say .010” for example off the housing mating surface then put .008” back in shims making the round bit of the bearing .002” smaller. You can get brass shim stock in all different sizes. The amount you remove will depend on how much free play you have. I think all is not lost, if it is bearing play you should be able to fix it. I think I memember from an old video that the shaft mating surface is a bit scored up. I was watching Abom79 fixing a motor shaft bearing surface last night with a spray welder. Looked like a great gadget :)
If you have a spark eroder I reckon you need a spray welder. :)
Have you ever seen this video? ruclips.net/video/QCYy1chHG88/видео.html
It shows the spindle and the head stock construction.
I believe the headstock bearings are inserts and should be replaceable.
Ideally the spindle should be professionally reground and the bearings replaced
HI there - 31:05 chatter
i think a lot has to with your rapidly diasppearing cutting speed (you have given the not so high 600rpm)
If thats by diam.22mm lets say - then with 600rpm you are getting a cuttung speed vc-41m/min which is bottom for every carbide edge to cut material at all
That FEEDs that are comfy for your diam.60mm (by vc-113m/min) you can not keep doing when your cutting speed reduces (because of the diamater getting smaller)
The proportion of the cutting speed on 60mm and 22mm diameters(guessing theese by eye) vc113 / vc41 = 2,71 - means that on the smaller diameter you can only feed 2,71 times slower to STAY AT THE SAME FEED/REV
if you force the feed faster you get an even thicker chip that is definitely too much for the insert
Actually thats why cnc-s speed up to their max rev when getting to diameter '0mm' - beacause theoritically your cutting speed also becomes '0m/min in the middle - which is not much :)
my opinion
The two holes are quite hard on the inserts. I would suggest to use a large pipe or something to achieve sufficient cutting speed. Last but not least: make sure that you are in the ballpark spect cutting rate
Giving the inserts a hard time was the plan, otherwise I would still be filming this video :)
@@Rolingmetal we call that abusing
The fact that the coating seems to come off after only a few cuts (and these things are supposed to be designed for high tool pressure!) says enough...
I really doubt that the 'gold' colour is in fact TIN.... what the blue stuff (besides paint!) could be is anybody's guess !
These Banggood inserts are rubbish.
You're better off buying NOS brandname inserts (eg on Fleabay) and make the insert holders yourself. The difference between these and the cheap crud is marked !
Good vid!
Paddy
depth of cut does not multiply on facing cuts only diameter cuts
🤣🤣🤣 I don't think I've ever seen such a great finish. Not on Scraptonium!!! 11:58
Your old lathe is not really made for insert tooling. Carbide inserts don't have a sharp cutting edge, else they would ware as he'll. So they need was more tool pressure to cut well, and also higher speeds. The interrupted cutting is also cancer for carbide. It will chip off a lot.
Your old lathe will work at best with HSS tooling and a good sharp cutting edge.
On my smaller lathe I do most of the time using the polished carbide inserts for aluminium. They have very sharp cutting edges.
I bought a box of ccgt inserts months ago. been meaning to try them out but haven't had the time yet.
Curious why you're intentionally producing interrupted cuts (drilling holes) in the test piece? It's common knowledge that it's the surest way to fracture and fail a carbide cutter?
Wakodahatchee Chris
At 20:34 ..... Return of the Pube.?? lol.!
Damn, another one escaped!
@@Rolingmetal Should have worn Clogs again mate! ;)
I don't think the packing under the tool holder helps
Mr Blue is ... dichromatic
1: having or exhibiting two colors
2: of, relating to, or exhibiting dichromatism
Blue nano is more like a triple colour.
Do you have solid material? The breaked surface hit the tool. The carbide is rigid and fragile. This is not good test for this insert.
Inserts do not like interrupted cuts. Those holes aren't doing you any favors.
7:35 and that is exactly why you should never face from the inside out, good way of destroying the inserts.
Edit: I see you noticed the "flaw in your test" on the next cut, lol.
Also the test would be more fair, if you used power feed and non interrupted cut, but it would take much longer to do any damage to the inserts that way.
That was the important learning moment that I took from this video :)
Could do with a new tool post bolt the threads look really bad 👍👍🙄🏴
I might not be pretty but it's still fully function.
On a face cut, is 0.2mm actually 0.2mm.
At least that's not confusing to me :)
heb je de sandvic plaatjes geprobeerdt van policristalino met oxid van aluminia coeted dat gaat veel beter als de tin coeted plaatjes mooie video ik heb het helemaal gezien tot kijk
Helaas, daar heb ik het budget niet voor :)
Maar ik zou Sandvic een mailtje kunnen sturen. Wie weet hoe een koe een haas vangt :)
Exceeding the parameters of an insert does not translate to its longevity.
I only cared for the longevity under these circumstances
Realy scientific?
very scientific and terrific :)
I like you, Rollingmetal dude.
You get any training for this? if not, you should go to school for this stuff. I highly recommend it. Being able to use many really good machines gives you good ideas as to what is needed for high performance & high precision when making & modifying machines.
I don't know what it's like for you where you live but my U.S. State, as long as you are poor by American standards, grants are easy to come by. My tuition was only a bit more than half of my grant so they cut you a check for the remainder. And if you were to go to California, they'd probably give you better benefits than U.S. citizens. Sure, I'm borrowing money from my grandchildren by participating in government subsidized education but I plan to repay them.
Come on over, dude. it's nice here. We have every climate you can imagine here, Just pick a state. All that B.S, American media pushes about not liking immigrants is propaganda. The majority of the population are migrants or the children & grandchildren of immigrants like myself. Most of us just want people to obey our laws and try to be an asset to society rather than a burden on society. ...pretty universally accepted moral, I would say.
Anyway, best of luck. Thank you for your time and effort.
I want to use the subtitles, but on the channel I need them, translates his Portuguese into Portuguese! I'm in the USA and I speak only English.
Sorry, I did not feel like wasting my time, fixing up the auto generated subtitles. But "life" usually means 'lathe" they hardly never get that right. must be my pronunciation.
Listen mate I am English and most Dutch people speak far better English than ANY Yank I've ever met! Lol
God those coatings look terrible. Instead of cvd or PVD they look like they were rattle canned. I agree with the others, comparison to iscar sandvik or Sumi would be the ticket.
I've done this with many inserts with cut tests and have a great knowledge base setup for materials and substrates, just far too lazy to film all of it. That's where you come in!!
The coatings look rather flaky. I wonder how well it has bonded with the carbide.
Vegetable oil is as good as anything - and cheap.
It's good for frying things.
And as a cutting oil - the cutting oil manufacturers don't want us to know that!! it's a proven method - use it from an old household spray bottle or a brush. Trust me - I'm an Engineer!!
@@Rolingmetal lubing for MQL is vegetable based. BTW, friend of mine uses olive oil if there is no cutting oil for threading ready laying around. :-)