The weirdest thing about this game, for me looking at it in 2022, is how dedicated ICE was to make it playable with JUST the cards ... even though the rules say that's not the best way to do it. The designers put numbers from 2 to 12 on each card so players could reveal the top of their deck instead of rolling, and they took up at least one of the slots in a booster pack with region cards in case players didn't have the map. And THEN they put terrain icons on the location cards in case players hadn't pulled all the region cards they needed! Today we've got games like X-Wing that have no issues putting game critical information online, or the Star Wars RPG requiring special dice that don't come with the core rulebooks. But in the 90s, ICE was like, "... But what if these fantasy nerds don't have 2d6 handy?" This game is crazy, and great, and I would not be at all surprised to learn it was originally being designed as a full-on board game that was converted to a CCG after Magic: The Gathering took over physical games and ICE suddenly had to come up with weird solutions for not having all the packed in physical components anymore.
From what we know, it was actually an RPG team designing a card game from the start. It's probably more a reality of the times, where technology and the internet couldn't be relied upon to do the sort of things you see with X-Wing. We're hopeful that we'll get people on content at some point who were involved in the design of the game to find out!
@@teamcovenant I will watch/listen to that content for sure! Because I've become obsessed, I went looking for MECCG podcasts and found an episode of one called The Booster Pack Network (#29, from September 2022) that was an interview with Coleman Charlton, the managing editor at ICE in the 90s and original designer of the MECCG prototype. His description was, "MECCG is an RPG pretending to be a card game." Apparently, WotC actually had the option to make a Middle-Earth card game FOR Iron Crown but were so busy with Magic they had to choose between MECCG and BattleTech. WotC went with BattleTech first, thinking ICE wouldn't pull the Middle-Earth license from the guys who'd made Magic: The Gathering, but ICE called their bluff and decided to develop the game in-house, even though they had zero experience with cards games. It was a really interesting interview.
Arguably, this is one of the greatest games ever created! I 'm so glad to see both of you guys, who I consider the BEST teachers of card games anywhere, streaming this and bringing it to the attention of folks who never heard of this incredible game. The middle-earth theme drips off this game! The artwork, quotes from the books and the cards themselves are so immersive that you feel like you're actually travelling in Tolkien's world! The Challenge decks are a great way to play and I think there is still a decent amount of it available to purchase. Do so if you can as it's well worth owning this set. Thank you both for doing this, I really appreciate it!
Thank you so much for this video! This is easily one of my favorite dead card games - if not one of my favorites of all time. Would love to see ya'll play more Middle Earth for sure!
Not wholly dead. There is a vibrant fan community that has released 3 pro-quality expansions in the last 5 years (The Firstborn, Durin's Folk and The Necromancer).
I very much appreciate you both taking the time to explore this gem. It really is the most boardgame-like CCG ever designed, and the best thematic representation of Lord of the Rings as a game in my estimation. There is a lot going on, which you both waded through admirably. Regarding learning to deck build, it can be overwhelming (given the 6 expansion sets) to find a strategy and weed through all those cards (it is a sandbox of a game). If possible, I'd suggest sticking with just the base set (The Wizards) when building a first deck. Those Challenge decks are actually drawn from several sets. That Companion book you were leafing through has a very simple deck on p. 54 that is perhaps easier for learning the game with.
I love you guys :) I played this game in late 90s with my friends, then forgot all about it and then I found my old cards in a drawer at my mom's place and now I am trying to understand from what sets my cards are and how to play them again.
This was incredibly satisfying to watch. Thank you so much for working through an intimidating 90’s classic and recording it for all to see. I would absolutely love to see how a second game played out for you. You’ve put in the hard work of learning it, might as well see how it feels after the learning game. For speed and simplicity of play the starter movement is much more manageable. You really went all in jumping straight to advanced rules :o.
Wanted to thank you guys for this stream. I own literally thousands 9f cards for this game and haven't had them out of storage for years. This has rekindled my desire to blow the dust off and track down a fellow LOTR nerd to try it out with again.
3 года назад
Thank you for those MECCG videos ! It's a breath of fresh air to go back there :)
the best part of these old ccgs is how much detail they went into also the art was great! i actually watched the whole thing over the course of a few days. wonderous!
@@teamcovenant it really brought me back to when me and my brother would play these games. I think we bought a starter or some cards for Lord of the Rings but i can't recall where any of those are! good times!
I never thought I'd see a 6 hour video! I played back in '96, and revisited it about 2014. I think we never played it right! Some of the rules are a bit difficult for my taste, like enduring the trouble that it is to play a ring, then examine it (too bad if you dont have Gandalf, have to wait till a card lets you examine it) and then to get discarded if you dont have the specific ring according to the result of the 2D6 etc, but I have to admit that is tempting to revisit it once again. Thanks so much for the wonderful video, it really brings back great memories! You guys are great!
Regarding deckbuilding in this game, as I recall it it's a fairly organic process compared to many more modern games. Typically you want to end up with a deck that fulfills the following criteria: * It can get all it needs in a reasonably limited area, preferably one where you can get from any site you need to any other site you need in one turn (though that's often not possible). * The characters have enough bonuses to recruit the factions with very little risk of failure. * Enough prowess and/or canceling ability to handle expected hazards (which depend on what region you're sticking to - another reason to move in a smaller area is to limit your opponent's ability to play hazards). * Redundancies, because characters will die. * A hazard deck that doesn't make things worse for yourself. If you're planning on going into the more dangerous regions you don't want to play with Doors of Night for example, since that allows for more effects that strengthen the hazards playable there. (There were exceptions to all these, of course. Some decks could move far and wide, some would include factions you weren't strong against because they were conveniently located, some would bet everything on a specific character and make big efforts to keep them alive, and so on.) But even though you will end up in a similar place, you can start the deckbuilding process anywhere. Do you want to use a particular character? Find out what factions they have a bonus to recruit, find other characters that have the same skills (Scout, Diplomat etc) so you can include cards that key off of that, figure out what hazards are likely to be dangerous in the area you will be moving around. If you start with Legolas you'll want the Wood Elves and some other characters that have a bonus to recruit those, and you'll be close to dragon country up in the north so you'll probably want to be able to cancel the few but big strikes those hazard creatures have and so on. Or do you want to play in a particular area? Pick out the factions that can be recruited there and find characters with good bonuses towards them, go for more or fewer items depending on what sites are available for those. Or do you want to play a particular hazard archetype? (The big ones I recall are Orcs & Trolls (best in wilderness and shadowlands), Spiders (best in wilderness, particularly Mirkwood), Men (best in borderlands and borderholds with some playable in freeholds, and most factions are recruited from borderholds and freeholds), Undead (needs shadowlands, but there are cards that turn wilderness into shadowlands if you can keep Doors of Night in play), Drakes & Dragons (best in wilderness and the northeast), and Ringwraiths (very difficult to get to work properly but scary if you can do it, as I recall). So if you want to play with undead you probably don't want to go into the shadowlands or even the wilderness much because more dangerous hazards will be playable there and you'll want to avoid sites with undead auto-attacks. Or do you want to go for pure theme? Hobbits puttering around in the region around the Shire, dwarves taking back the Lonely Mountain, Aragorn reforging Narsil into Andúril and rallying Gondor and Rohan, or, of course, dunking the Ring are all possible. Regarding the design of the game, there are a few ways in which it could have benefitted from some modern tech even if you kept the core the same. For example, I think there was only a single character with an alternate version (not counting the Fallen Wizards, which were a great addition, or the evil faction versions of some hazard creatures) which was a Strider version of Aragorn, and having more variant characters could have helped with the glut of named-but-unknown characters currently in the game. Streamlining the process for influencing the other players' stuff and making it more transparent as well as amore core part of the game rather than what mainly seems to be a huge, kludgy patch for "but what if we both play Aragorn?" situations would also have helped. Also, and this feels weird to say about such an incredibly thematic game, but putting in more thematic cards and making the story moments stronger could have enhanced the experience even more, primarily if they were allowed to change the game world more in the same way the White Tree turns Minas Tirith into a haven (in some limited ways). But there are also things I wish other games had picked up, like the integrated way the sideboard is used. For longer games, where you expect to go through your deck twice, having a first and a second phase was pretty common - my first time through the deck I try to get certain cards into play, and then I shuffle in these other cards for my second cycle, perhaps one located in a different region or ones that build on the first group. For a game that takes place in a known setting I also like the focus on minor variations on general abilities for most characters rather than giving every single character a unique ability, the way many newer games do. To me, the latter makes the characters feel more like game pieces, like they're representing a game mechanic rather than a character. Anyway, this has gone on for way longer than I had planned. Off to the next video!
Thank you for revisiting this game - I wish I could watch more of it and I could get people around me to give it the time it takes to actually learn it. Next time you do one of these, grab the Balrog decks and use one of them while the other player uses a Hero deck! Never did tournaments, so didnt have to deal with any of the strategies and counter-strategies, we just played kitchen table and had a ton of fun. You could actually see a story unfold, and that was the beauty and elegance of the game.
Thank you for this, it was real joy watching you play. Fun fact: the starter decks would always include certain cards: the region movement cards, the havens, and one from 5 sets of "fixed cards" consisting of 2 different wizards, 5 characters, 2 factions associated with your characters, and 7 sites including home sites for your fixed set characters and wizards. Eg. one of the fixed sets always had Alatar, Saruman, Beorn, the Beornings faction, Beorn's House, Gimli, Iron Hill Dwarves, Iron Hills, etc. More random than a challenge deck, less random than MTG. I completely misunderstood so many rules for a long time, but it was fun anyway. I played MTG, Star Wars CCG, Star Trek, Jyhad/VTM, X-Files, love them all but none have married theme and gameplay as well as MECCG. It's a real work of art.
I've unironically watched this video probably 3-4 full times, this last time while thumbing through my copy of The Wizards Companion, and slowly but surely I feel like I'm fully absorbing and being more deeply engrossed by this game. This game is absolutely astounding, incredibly ambitious, and I couldn't even imagine what more space they could have explored with more success and further blocks/sets
You guys made a great job of this :-) well done! I came here because of Middle Earth and will look at more of the games you’ve played. Please have another game of Middle Earth though with different challenge decks. You should be able to get through a game in about 90 minutes.
Team Covenant Inspired by your play through I spent HOURS creating playable starter decks to encourage newbies to the game. One can be found here: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Middle-Earth-CCG-Lot-Elrond-Vilya-100-cards/293560894673?pageci=32001bc6-9e8a-405e-8f07-3fbf96ee1352
After watching this i went on ebay and bought a bunch of bulk lots and singles. This has to be the most unique ccg ive seen and cant wait to try it out. Thank you for doing such an in depth video on this!
This was one of my favorite games back in the day, especially since you could often find the first few sets in the bargain bins for about $20 a box. Unfortunately, I can only see the last two hours of your video. I would love to see the full video. So glad you guys pulled this one out!
You got me into Deciphers Lotr TCG and I ended up picking couple of boxes of this too to play with my friends. The feeling of middle earth and adventure is so real while playing this
Thank you for doing a playthrough of this game. It's inspired me to pick up some challenge decks and boosters so that I can start my collection. Additionally, I'm dusting off the books for a read through for the first time in over a decade, so again, thank you :)
you nailed complexity in a game really well. I would just add... added complexity when it enhances the theme, which I think SWCCG and MECCG both do, its worth it to further immerse into the world. I would buy a set of MECCG compatible tokens!!! that would be awesome!! The LOTR LCG just doesnt feel like LOTR. It really is like you're following a script. Its fun, but not what a LOTR game should be like. You are absolutely Steven, you definitely need to be able to travel and move in a LOTR card game. Moving needs to be a core mechanic of the game. and my favorite thing about this stream was after being 3hrs in there was still another 3hrs of gaming!! The TC Team... true legends!!
Oh what a interesting game. So many cool mechanics: the movement, the testing of rings, corruption of gaining items and damage. All without a single token! Would be amazing with a updated game with just cleaner rules/language without removing all the cool stuff :)
This is excellent. Seeing you guys play it conjurs up memories I had at least 10 starters worth...but I'm gonna get a few challenge decks. And my God the crunch here! 😁
What a lovely video. I lost all of my cards in a flood of my mom's basement years ago. I didn't have tons, mainly the base set and early expansions, but I've been wanting to get back into it. Seems like it can be pretty pricey to get those Challenge Decks, but I bought a few starters and a random lot of 1k cards on eBay and we'll see how this goes... now just need to find someone to play with. Side note - i'd love to see you guys play Decipher's Star Trek CCG. I think along with Middle Earth and Mythos it was one of the earliest CCG's that used different win conditions than simply reducing your opponent's life to zero. Mythos, too, is great, and the Standard Game Set (pre-constructed decks) can still be found cheap..
I can't believe I watched all of this, WTG guys! In your closing remarks you discussed the lore and how they could make all these items into a card game. Well a lot of the playable lore they had down already because ICE also produced years before this and during this CCG, MERP (Middle-Earth Role Playing) game! Not to mentioned they had some die hard fans working at ICE that knew the Tolkien books inside and out.
You guys should make a monthly thing where you revisit games from the 90s or extremely complex games. I have loved the starwars ccg and lotr tcg. I recommend VTES and Mythos.
Nice throwback... used to play this a lot when it was still for sale in the shops and still own a complete collection. Any chance you'll stream more of this?
@@teamcovenant Awesome! This game does have quite a high learning curve to get the insides and outs, but once you get the hang of it, it is very rewarding in regards to game experience. Especially once you get into building own decks. The challenge decks are a good way to learn the game, though.
Hi guys! I’ve been rewatching this video again 🙂 Still hoping for your second game to happen. What happened? Didn’t Steven like it after all? I enjoyed your solo play videos too, but would really love to see another two player game now that you know the rules 👍
Great stream as always. I find it fascinating that 2 games (l5r and middle earth) seem overly complex but one left me cold and disinterested and the other has made me spend £100. Challenger decks, book and dice are on the way !! May be theme is everything??
I played this a lot back in the day and for years after it was no longer in print. I don't think I've played it for the past ten years or so, but now I'm itching to bring it out again. I seem to remember getting to playtest an early version of a revised edition that sadly never saw the light of day. From what I recall it was fairly close to the original but with some streamlining and rebalancing of weak and OP cards (I'm looking at you, Assassin!).
Great video! I have these challenger decks and a few complete sets. Love the artwork and flavor of this game. Never get around to playing it though. Edit: Played a game last night for the first time in over 20 years. It was awesome.
From what I've seen the only way you can "tap a character to play a minor item" is if the site you are at says you can play a minor item there or if you have successfully played something at the site and then tap another character to play a minor item. I think that's what you meant to say but I was a bit confused when you said "always" so I guess that means like you can always tap to play the minor item IF you have played a previous card at that site.
I literally found this video because I found my old collection last week and wanted to relearn how to play. Hadnt touched them in 20 years. What are the odds?
Watched a ton of the MECCG content and you guys never mention the Fallen Wizard archetype. I'd love to see you play again with one of you doing the Saruman goes crazy and tries to rule the world. Or Gandalf falls to the corruption of the one ring.
I get it. Corruption is like at the end of Return of the King, Frodo standing at the precipice of the Cracks of Doom, turns into "Scary Frodo" and says, "The ring is MINE!" Also, Boromir: "The ring could be mine! It SHOULD be mine! Give it to me!" This is a really cool, thematic mechanic!!
What is a "Hoard Item"? Is that something you "hoard"? ANSWER: Certain items are hoard items. Such an item may only be played at a site that contains a hoard. Each site with a Dragon automatic-attack (i.e. each Dragon's lair) contains a hoard. A hoard minor item may not be included with a starting company, and may not be played at a site that does not contain a hoard. Example: you can not play a hoard minor item at Wellinghall after successfully influencing the Ents of Fangorn like you can with a normal minor item. Wellinghall does not contain a hoard.
One more thing: I know there was a non-licensed dedicated client for internet play made for this fairly early on that was pretty good, at least for the time. I don't know if it's still floating around out there.
Ooooh, so you are roleplaying the wizard from the start (20 general influence), he's just not travelling with any parties to begin with, he adds an extra 10 influence when he is physically present. Thus is so deliciously thematic: when Frodo was forced to leave the Shire without Gandalf because Gandalf never turned up. Yet they meet later at Rivendell. All the while the quest of the ring was initiated by Gandalf, so he was essentially the puppet master, even though he wasn't present during the first leg of the journey.
This game kind of reminds me of Redemption (that Bible-themed CCG). You have one deck with good and evil cards mixed together, and the good cards and evil cards don't have to have anything to do with each other.
I can't fault you too much given your love for MEccg. ;-) But MTG is not even in the top 5 CCGs (let alone CCGs/LCGs). Garfield's two subsequent designs (Netrunner and Jyhad) are better. I would also put L5R/LBS and Dune above it.
_(O fellow Istari of Arda, be ware; these fellows have not familiarised themselves with Appendix E)_ 22:15 start Also, no second game, so no other timestamps.
I wonder: what happens if you reveal your starting characters at the beginning of the game and both players are using the exact same set of characters?
Clarification: If a character was already wounded before a strike wounds him again, the resulting body check modification is always +1 (regardless of how many times a character is wounded).
Don't you have to "store" items in a Haven in order for them to grant you Marshalling Points? Don't think they are worth any if you just play them on a character. Awesome video btw, thanks for this!
No - certain items need to be stored to give points (or give more when stored - also some events need to be stored to give points) but the big benefit of storing is that the items can't be influenced away & no character holds them (so no chance of failing corruption checks & loosing the items along with the holding character at the White Council - especially good for the high corruption items like some of the rings).
To be fair about the complexity: the game has 'basic' rules and 'advanced' rules and you guys jumped straight into the advanced rules before mastering the basic rules. You made it really hard on yourself. :)
I think ICE had planned for it to be released fully as an expandable card game after two planned sets (that never came out) - but they lost the rights to LOTR
@@RedZoneRogue They were playtesting a revised edition when they lost the rights. (I still have the pdfs of the playtest materials somewhere.) I don't remember if they said anything about the distribution model though.
I think it's impossible - you'd need to combine the rule license back with the game license for the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings & the Unfinished Tales which the game pulls from - I think all those are currently split amongst different companies / individuals - the card layout design & the art work would also be separate licences. Basically FFG hold the right to make a card game covering the Hobbit & LOTR but can't use the Blue Wizards from Unfinished Tales & they preferred to make own game rules than get the extra licence needed for a reprint of this one. Then all the extra characters / locations made up by ICE would need licensing / replacing or would be cut out (the concept of the Underdeeps was theirs - don't know who would "own" that idea now). It's a game made from a mess of overlapping rights. A less cimplete version could be possible but suspect most companies that could get the rights would decide to go the FFG route of creating a new game as they'd see it aa having a wider appeal with modern mechanics.
Am I dreaming??!! This game is amazing and I NEVER thought I’d see a prominent RUclips channel actually cover it!
We're just happy to be considered prominent!
Man... I miss this videos. Hope you can make more videos with this game, Battletech, L5R, and all the games you liked during covid
The weirdest thing about this game, for me looking at it in 2022, is how dedicated ICE was to make it playable with JUST the cards ... even though the rules say that's not the best way to do it. The designers put numbers from 2 to 12 on each card so players could reveal the top of their deck instead of rolling, and they took up at least one of the slots in a booster pack with region cards in case players didn't have the map. And THEN they put terrain icons on the location cards in case players hadn't pulled all the region cards they needed!
Today we've got games like X-Wing that have no issues putting game critical information online, or the Star Wars RPG requiring special dice that don't come with the core rulebooks. But in the 90s, ICE was like, "... But what if these fantasy nerds don't have 2d6 handy?"
This game is crazy, and great, and I would not be at all surprised to learn it was originally being designed as a full-on board game that was converted to a CCG after Magic: The Gathering took over physical games and ICE suddenly had to come up with weird solutions for not having all the packed in physical components anymore.
From what we know, it was actually an RPG team designing a card game from the start. It's probably more a reality of the times, where technology and the internet couldn't be relied upon to do the sort of things you see with X-Wing. We're hopeful that we'll get people on content at some point who were involved in the design of the game to find out!
@@teamcovenant I will watch/listen to that content for sure!
Because I've become obsessed, I went looking for MECCG podcasts and found an episode of one called The Booster Pack Network (#29, from September 2022) that was an interview with Coleman Charlton, the managing editor at ICE in the 90s and original designer of the MECCG prototype. His description was, "MECCG is an RPG pretending to be a card game."
Apparently, WotC actually had the option to make a Middle-Earth card game FOR Iron Crown but were so busy with Magic they had to choose between MECCG and BattleTech. WotC went with BattleTech first, thinking ICE wouldn't pull the Middle-Earth license from the guys who'd made Magic: The Gathering, but ICE called their bluff and decided to develop the game in-house, even though they had zero experience with cards games.
It was a really interesting interview.
Arguably, this is one of the greatest games ever created! I 'm so glad to see both of you guys, who I consider the BEST teachers of card games anywhere, streaming this and bringing it to the attention of folks who never heard of this incredible game.
The middle-earth theme drips off this game! The artwork, quotes from the books and the cards themselves are so immersive that you feel like you're actually travelling in Tolkien's world!
The Challenge decks are a great way to play and I think there is still a decent amount of it available to purchase. Do so if you can as it's well worth owning this set.
Thank you both for doing this, I really appreciate it!
It's such a special game - really nothing like it.
@@teamcovenant Agreed. I hope you'll revisit this at some point and show off even more of this great game!
Thank you so much for this video! This is easily one of my favorite dead card games - if not one of my favorites of all time. Would love to see ya'll play more Middle Earth for sure!
Not wholly dead. There is a vibrant fan community that has released 3 pro-quality expansions in the last 5 years (The Firstborn, Durin's Folk and The Necromancer).
@@henryrodriguez6260 -- Can you provide a link to it? Thx!
I very much appreciate you both taking the time to explore this gem. It really is the most boardgame-like CCG ever designed, and the best thematic representation of Lord of the Rings as a game in my estimation. There is a lot going on, which you both waded through admirably. Regarding learning to deck build, it can be overwhelming (given the 6 expansion sets) to find a strategy and weed through all those cards (it is a sandbox of a game). If possible, I'd suggest sticking with just the base set (The Wizards) when building a first deck. Those Challenge decks are actually drawn from several sets. That Companion book you were leafing through has a very simple deck on p. 54 that is perhaps easier for learning the game with.
This was awesome, pulled my old stuff out and started teaching my kids. Thanks. Also this was how I found you guys
Glad to have you Trevor! Sounds like a great game to teach your kids. We would have lost ourselves in it at that age (and still do).
26:58 So much joy on Zach's face haha, can't believe we were watching this live a year ago, now...
I love you guys :) I played this game in late 90s with my friends, then forgot all about it and then I found my old cards in a drawer at my mom's place and now I am trying to understand from what sets my cards are and how to play them again.
This was incredibly satisfying to watch. Thank you so much for working through an intimidating 90’s classic and recording it for all to see. I would absolutely love to see how a second game played out for you. You’ve put in the hard work of learning it, might as well see how it feels after the learning game. For speed and simplicity of play the starter movement is much more manageable. You really went all in jumping straight to advanced rules :o.
We'd love to get this one back on camera. Could just stare at the art and be fully satisfied.
Wanted to thank you guys for this stream. I own literally thousands 9f cards for this game and haven't had them out of storage for years. This has rekindled my desire to blow the dust off and track down a fellow LOTR nerd to try it out with again.
Thank you for those MECCG videos ! It's a breath of fresh air to go back there :)
the best part of these old ccgs is how much detail they went into also the art was great! i actually watched the whole thing over the course of a few days. wonderous!
Just magical, isn't it. Like in the real sense of the word.
@@teamcovenant it really brought me back to when me and my brother would play these games. I think we bought a starter or some cards for Lord of the Rings but i can't recall where any of those are! good times!
That was one epic stream! 6:30 just flew away. Time to order me some challenge decks.
I never thought I'd see a 6 hour video! I played back in '96, and revisited it about 2014. I think we never played it right! Some of the rules are a bit difficult for my taste, like enduring the trouble that it is to play a ring, then examine it (too bad if you dont have Gandalf, have to wait till a card lets you examine it) and then to get discarded if you dont have the specific ring according to the result of the 2D6 etc, but I have to admit that is tempting to revisit it once again. Thanks so much for the wonderful video, it really brings back great memories! You guys are great!
Regarding deckbuilding in this game, as I recall it it's a fairly organic process compared to many more modern games.
Typically you want to end up with a deck that fulfills the following criteria:
* It can get all it needs in a reasonably limited area, preferably one where you can get from any site you need to any other site you need in one turn (though that's often not possible).
* The characters have enough bonuses to recruit the factions with very little risk of failure.
* Enough prowess and/or canceling ability to handle expected hazards (which depend on what region you're sticking to - another reason to move in a smaller area is to limit your opponent's ability to play hazards).
* Redundancies, because characters will die.
* A hazard deck that doesn't make things worse for yourself. If you're planning on going into the more dangerous regions you don't want to play with Doors of Night for example, since that allows for more effects that strengthen the hazards playable there.
(There were exceptions to all these, of course. Some decks could move far and wide, some would include factions you weren't strong against because they were conveniently located, some would bet everything on a specific character and make big efforts to keep them alive, and so on.)
But even though you will end up in a similar place, you can start the deckbuilding process anywhere.
Do you want to use a particular character? Find out what factions they have a bonus to recruit, find other characters that have the same skills (Scout, Diplomat etc) so you can include cards that key off of that, figure out what hazards are likely to be dangerous in the area you will be moving around. If you start with Legolas you'll want the Wood Elves and some other characters that have a bonus to recruit those, and you'll be close to dragon country up in the north so you'll probably want to be able to cancel the few but big strikes those hazard creatures have and so on.
Or do you want to play in a particular area? Pick out the factions that can be recruited there and find characters with good bonuses towards them, go for more or fewer items depending on what sites are available for those.
Or do you want to play a particular hazard archetype? (The big ones I recall are Orcs & Trolls (best in wilderness and shadowlands), Spiders (best in wilderness, particularly Mirkwood), Men (best in borderlands and borderholds with some playable in freeholds, and most factions are recruited from borderholds and freeholds), Undead (needs shadowlands, but there are cards that turn wilderness into shadowlands if you can keep Doors of Night in play), Drakes & Dragons (best in wilderness and the northeast), and Ringwraiths (very difficult to get to work properly but scary if you can do it, as I recall). So if you want to play with undead you probably don't want to go into the shadowlands or even the wilderness much because more dangerous hazards will be playable there and you'll want to avoid sites with undead auto-attacks.
Or do you want to go for pure theme? Hobbits puttering around in the region around the Shire, dwarves taking back the Lonely Mountain, Aragorn reforging Narsil into Andúril and rallying Gondor and Rohan, or, of course, dunking the Ring are all possible.
Regarding the design of the game, there are a few ways in which it could have benefitted from some modern tech even if you kept the core the same. For example, I think there was only a single character with an alternate version (not counting the Fallen Wizards, which were a great addition, or the evil faction versions of some hazard creatures) which was a Strider version of Aragorn, and having more variant characters could have helped with the glut of named-but-unknown characters currently in the game. Streamlining the process for influencing the other players' stuff and making it more transparent as well as amore core part of the game rather than what mainly seems to be a huge, kludgy patch for "but what if we both play Aragorn?" situations would also have helped. Also, and this feels weird to say about such an incredibly thematic game, but putting in more thematic cards and making the story moments stronger could have enhanced the experience even more, primarily if they were allowed to change the game world more in the same way the White Tree turns Minas Tirith into a haven (in some limited ways).
But there are also things I wish other games had picked up, like the integrated way the sideboard is used. For longer games, where you expect to go through your deck twice, having a first and a second phase was pretty common - my first time through the deck I try to get certain cards into play, and then I shuffle in these other cards for my second cycle, perhaps one located in a different region or ones that build on the first group. For a game that takes place in a known setting I also like the focus on minor variations on general abilities for most characters rather than giving every single character a unique ability, the way many newer games do. To me, the latter makes the characters feel more like game pieces, like they're representing a game mechanic rather than a character.
Anyway, this has gone on for way longer than I had planned. Off to the next video!
Yeah middle earth ccg was the real ccg... It was insane and the real deal... It needs to come back!!!
Thank you for revisiting this game - I wish I could watch more of it and I could get people around me to give it the time it takes to actually learn it. Next time you do one of these, grab the Balrog decks and use one of them while the other player uses a Hero deck! Never did tournaments, so didnt have to deal with any of the strategies and counter-strategies, we just played kitchen table and had a ton of fun. You could actually see a story unfold, and that was the beauty and elegance of the game.
Thank you for this, it was real joy watching you play. Fun fact: the starter decks would always include certain cards: the region movement cards, the havens, and one from 5 sets of "fixed cards" consisting of 2 different wizards, 5 characters, 2 factions associated with your characters, and 7 sites including home sites for your fixed set characters and wizards. Eg. one of the fixed sets always had Alatar, Saruman, Beorn, the Beornings faction, Beorn's House, Gimli, Iron Hill Dwarves, Iron Hills, etc. More random than a challenge deck, less random than MTG. I completely misunderstood so many rules for a long time, but it was fun anyway. I played MTG, Star Wars CCG, Star Trek, Jyhad/VTM, X-Files, love them all but none have married theme and gameplay as well as MECCG. It's a real work of art.
Glad you enjoyed it! It was a fun one to dive into. Have you seen our Lord of the Rings TCG series?
@@teamcovenant I'll get around to it eventually
I've unironically watched this video probably 3-4 full times, this last time while thumbing through my copy of The Wizards Companion, and slowly but surely I feel like I'm fully absorbing and being more deeply engrossed by this game. This game is absolutely astounding, incredibly ambitious, and I couldn't even imagine what more space they could have explored with more success and further blocks/sets
100% agree. Zach is playing Solo on Thursday's stream this week. Be sure to join!
I loved this game as a kid and especially enjoyed that one could even do it solitaire.
Is there a version of it on Tabletop Simulator?
You guys made a great job of this :-) well done! I came here because of Middle Earth and will look at more of the games you’ve played.
Please have another game of Middle Earth though with different challenge decks. You should be able to get through a game in about 90 minutes.
This really demands another play at some point, now that they know how to play.
We need to play a few more! Imagine it'll happen in the next few weeks.
Team Covenant Inspired by your play through I spent HOURS creating playable starter decks to encourage newbies to the game. One can be found here:
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Middle-Earth-CCG-Lot-Elrond-Vilya-100-cards/293560894673?pageci=32001bc6-9e8a-405e-8f07-3fbf96ee1352
Awesome that you took time to show this old gem of a game again :)
After watching this i went on ebay and bought a bunch of bulk lots and singles. This has to be the most unique ccg ive seen and cant wait to try it out. Thank you for doing such an in depth video on this!
This was one of my favorite games back in the day, especially since you could often find the first few sets in the bargain bins for about $20 a box. Unfortunately, I can only see the last two hours of your video. I would love to see the full video. So glad you guys pulled this one out!
It'll take a while for this one to get processed on YT. Over 6 hours!
@@teamcovenant feel free to ignore this request- it would be much easier to watch later if you took a break every 1.5-2 hrs to break up the videos
You got me into Deciphers Lotr TCG and I ended up picking couple of boxes of this too to play with my friends. The feeling of middle earth and adventure is so real while playing this
Like nothing else!
Thank you for doing a playthrough of this game. It's inspired me to pick up some challenge decks and boosters so that I can start my collection. Additionally, I'm dusting off the books for a read through for the first time in over a decade, so again, thank you :)
you nailed complexity in a game really well. I would just add... added complexity when it enhances the theme, which I think SWCCG and MECCG both do, its worth it to further immerse into the world.
I would buy a set of MECCG compatible tokens!!! that would be awesome!!
The LOTR LCG just doesnt feel like LOTR. It really is like you're following a script. Its fun, but not what a LOTR game should be like. You are absolutely Steven, you definitely need to be able to travel and move in a LOTR card game. Moving needs to be a core mechanic of the game.
and my favorite thing about this stream was after being 3hrs in there was still another 3hrs of gaming!! The TC Team... true legends!!
Oh what a interesting game. So many cool mechanics: the movement, the testing of rings, corruption of gaining items and damage.
All without a single token!
Would be amazing with a updated game with just cleaner rules/language without removing all the cool stuff :)
That would mean a game with...tokens :) Nothing today is made without them.
This is excellent. Seeing you guys play it conjurs up memories I had at least 10 starters worth...but I'm gonna get a few challenge decks. And my God the crunch here! 😁
this was my first tcg. I miss it and regret to sold my decks T_T
What a lovely video. I lost all of my cards in a flood of my mom's basement years ago. I didn't have tons, mainly the base set and early expansions, but I've been wanting to get back into it. Seems like it can be pretty pricey to get those Challenge Decks, but I bought a few starters and a random lot of 1k cards on eBay and we'll see how this goes... now just need to find someone to play with. Side note - i'd love to see you guys play Decipher's Star Trek CCG. I think along with Middle Earth and Mythos it was one of the earliest CCG's that used different win conditions than simply reducing your opponent's life to zero. Mythos, too, is great, and the Standard Game Set (pre-constructed decks) can still be found cheap..
Great suggestions Ian. Thanks!
I can't believe I watched all of this, WTG guys! In your closing remarks you discussed the lore and how they could make all these items into a card game. Well a lot of the playable lore they had down already because ICE also produced years before this and during this CCG, MERP (Middle-Earth Role Playing) game! Not to mentioned they had some die hard fans working at ICE that knew the Tolkien books inside and out.
That's awesome, great thoughts Zeymere, and thanks for watching!
An amazing game! Need to bring this one back for a special occasion throwback.
at about 1:32:00 Concealment cancel an attack. Not only one strike. An attack is made of 1 or more strikes.
thanks guys. It 's fun , this game are still very good . You cam play a Rignwraith deck or even the Mighty Balrog.
Make another video of MECCG, but this time one of you must play as a Ringwraith to unleash all Middle Earth lore of this game.
Should of seen my group of friends in our bubble learning this game back in the day. Awesome that there's such an active community now for it.
So many of groups like that back in the day, no doubt. The rules were what your group decided - not much cross-checking with others!
You guys should make a monthly thing where you revisit games from the 90s or extremely complex games. I have loved the starwars ccg and lotr tcg. I recommend VTES and Mythos.
Mythos is great and can be obtained pretty cheap! Much cheaper than Middle Earth, in fact.
Yeah, I’ve have a ton of VTES decks but I don’t know anyone that ever wants to play, lol
Ian Johnson yeah, waaaay cheaper. I think I got 20 decks for $100 on eBay.
Would love to see this game on the stream again!
My favorite ccg, I play this with my wife
6:16 nailed it! Miniatures on a map!
Would love to see another round of MECCG. I learned the game about two years ago and it‘s a blast.
For a card game from 1995, this game has pretty sophisticated mechanics. I believe it was the first card game with an actual stack?
Rewatching this. So good. Play dune please!
Nice throwback... used to play this a lot when it was still for sale in the shops and still own a complete collection. Any chance you'll stream more of this?
Likely!
@@teamcovenant Awesome! This game does have quite a high learning curve to get the insides and outs, but once you get the hang of it, it is very rewarding in regards to game experience. Especially once you get into building own decks. The challenge decks are a good way to learn the game, though.
Hi guys! I’ve been rewatching this video again 🙂 Still hoping for your second game to happen. What happened? Didn’t Steven like it after all? I enjoyed your solo play videos too, but would really love to see another two player game now that you know the rules 👍
Great stream as always. I find it fascinating that 2 games (l5r and middle earth) seem overly complex but one left me cold and disinterested and the other has made me spend £100. Challenger decks, book and dice are on the way !! May be theme is everything??
I played this a lot back in the day and for years after it was no longer in print. I don't think I've played it for the past ten years or so, but now I'm itching to bring it out again.
I seem to remember getting to playtest an early version of a revised edition that sadly never saw the light of day. From what I recall it was fairly close to the original but with some streamlining and rebalancing of weak and OP cards (I'm looking at you, Assassin!).
Ever play Shadowfist? VTES? Cool to see some old stuff getting recognition.
We need to try both! VTES a bit, but ages ago.
Great video! I have these challenger decks and a few complete sets. Love the artwork and flavor of this game. Never get around to playing it though.
Edit: Played a game last night for the first time in over 20 years. It was awesome.
From what I've seen the only way you can "tap a character to play a minor item" is if the site you are at says you can play a minor item there or if you have successfully played something at the site and then tap another character to play a minor item. I think that's what you meant to say but I was a bit confused when you said "always" so I guess that means like you can always tap to play the minor item IF you have played a previous card at that site.
Could you guys make a shorter, say 20min version of this? That would be awesome!
Now that we're a bit more comfortable with the rules, we could get there!
It's doable if both knows their deck, are rulesmasters, and using Basic Rules only. Oh, and both needs to play superfast and risky decks.
I literally found this video because I found my old collection last week and wanted to relearn how to play. Hadnt touched them in 20 years. What are the odds?
The odds are incredibly low. But sometimes, the universe just lines up beautifully!
This game needs to come back. Top 10 games I wish I owned (but will probably never own).
Update, I own some now!
Watched a ton of the MECCG content and you guys never mention the Fallen Wizard archetype. I'd love to see you play again with one of you doing the Saruman goes crazy and tries to rule the world. Or Gandalf falls to the corruption of the one ring.
I get it. Corruption is like at the end of Return of the King, Frodo standing at the precipice of the Cracks of Doom, turns into "Scary Frodo" and says, "The ring is MINE!" Also, Boromir: "The ring could be mine! It SHOULD be mine! Give it to me!" This is a really cool, thematic mechanic!!
What is a "Hoard Item"? Is that something you "hoard"?
ANSWER: Certain items are hoard items. Such an item may only be played at a site that contains a hoard. Each site with a Dragon automatic-attack (i.e. each Dragon's lair) contains a hoard. A hoard minor item may not be included with a starting company, and may not be played at a site that does not contain a hoard.
Example: you can not play a hoard minor item at Wellinghall after successfully influencing the Ents of Fangorn like you can with a normal minor item. Wellinghall does not contain a hoard.
One more thing: I know there was a non-licensed dedicated client for internet play made for this fairly early on that was pretty good, at least for the time. I don't know if it's still floating around out there.
oooh, it would be sweet if you guys could feature Spellfire on Throwback Thursday.
Ooooh, so you are roleplaying the wizard from the start (20 general influence), he's just not travelling with any parties to begin with, he adds an extra 10 influence when he is physically present. Thus is so deliciously thematic: when Frodo was forced to leave the Shire without Gandalf because Gandalf never turned up. Yet they meet later at Rivendell. All the while the quest of the ring was initiated by Gandalf, so he was essentially the puppet master, even though he wasn't present during the first leg of the journey.
This game kind of reminds me of Redemption (that Bible-themed CCG). You have one deck with good and evil cards mixed together, and the good cards and evil cards don't have to have anything to do with each other.
What is the best thing to buy to start playing this game from scratch? Apologies if I missed it in the stream.
I’ve played Rolemaster and MERP by Ice and they are great. But this I’ve never tried!
You talk about the 90s like it was 100 years ago! MECCG is a great game. Chess and Go (designed hundreds of years ago) are also a pretty good games.
Easily the best CCG of ALL TIME!
Best ccg ever besides mtg
I can't fault you too much given your love for MEccg. ;-) But MTG is not even in the top 5 CCGs (let alone CCGs/LCGs). Garfield's two subsequent designs (Netrunner and Jyhad) are better. I would also put L5R/LBS and Dune above it.
_(O fellow Istari of Arda, be ware; these fellows have not familiarised themselves with Appendix E)_
22:15 start
Also, no second game, so no other timestamps.
best Tolkien card game.
Is there a good player aid anywhere?
I wonder: what happens if you reveal your starting characters at the beginning of the game and both players are using the exact same set of characters?
Is there a decklist for these available?
Google the challenge decks
Clarification: If a character was already wounded before a strike wounds him again, the resulting body check modification is always +1 (regardless of how many times a character is wounded).
That influence test its an opposed check!
Rpg vibes!
Livestream starts at 22:11
Is it correct that you really only need some challenge decks to staart playing? You don't need the starter box or anything?
Correct, but the challenge decks are less than optimized
I've got a really large set of this, does anyone know the prices? If so... PLEASE CONTACT ME xD
Where are you located?
Tulsa, OK
Don't you have to "store" items in a Haven in order for them to grant you Marshalling Points? Don't think they are worth any if you just play them on a character.
Awesome video btw, thanks for this!
No - certain items need to be stored to give points (or give more when stored - also some events need to be stored to give points) but the big benefit of storing is that the items can't be influenced away & no character holds them (so no chance of failing corruption checks & loosing the items along with the holding character at the White Council - especially good for the high corruption items like some of the rings).
Wonder if this game ever would be reprinted as a LCG?
We wouldn't mind!
Makes me wonder if ChatGPT knows how to play Middle-Earth.. to learn via it.
Terrifying.
Portugal 🇵🇹
Just wait until you learn regional movement on a map!
To be fair about the complexity: the game has 'basic' rules and 'advanced' rules and you guys jumped straight into the advanced rules before mastering the basic rules. You made it really hard on yourself. :)
Czech Republic :-)
Wonder if this game ever would be reprinted as a LCG?
I think ICE had planned for it to be released fully as an expandable card game after two planned sets (that never came out) - but they lost the rights to LOTR
@@RedZoneRogue They were playtesting a revised edition when they lost the rights. (I still have the pdfs of the playtest materials somewhere.) I don't remember if they said anything about the distribution model though.
I think it's impossible - you'd need to combine the rule license back with the game license for the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings & the Unfinished Tales which the game pulls from - I think all those are currently split amongst different companies / individuals - the card layout design & the art work would also be separate licences.
Basically FFG hold the right to make a card game covering the Hobbit & LOTR but can't use the Blue Wizards from Unfinished Tales & they preferred to make own game rules than get the extra licence needed for a reprint of this one.
Then all the extra characters / locations made up by ICE would need licensing / replacing or would be cut out (the concept of the Underdeeps was theirs - don't know who would "own" that idea now).
It's a game made from a mess of overlapping rights. A less cimplete version could be possible but suspect most companies that could get the rights would decide to go the FFG route of creating a new game as they'd see it aa having a wider appeal with modern mechanics.