I agree, 100%, that Jane is too easily dismissed. She died so quickly, that history failed to really record the woman she was. Common sense tells me that any woman who managed to attract Henry VIII and convince him to allow Mary back to court was no dummy.
I chuckled at the descriptions of the wives. However, I always shake my head at Anne of Cleves being described as ugly. Her portrait is so sweet. She is also, in my opinion, pretty darn smart. She escaped Henry's "attentions", after all.
It is doubtful as to whether the portrait was an authentic portrayal of Anne. It was quite usual in Tudor times (as is today), to flatter the subject, always a risk, but evidently one worth taking by playing on Henry’s desperation for a new, nubile wife. Am not saying she was as plain as Henry found her but it was generally agreed that she “possessed a strange odour”. In other words, she was lacking in personal hygiene, and Henry was a fastidious man in that department,
"strange odour" doesn't have to be lack of hygiene. It can be other eating habits or even a different perfume or different herb used to fold with her clothes
I personally believe that Jane knew exactly what she was doing. She knew Anne’s days where numbered and she carefully manipulated Henry playing up her innocence. She didn’t hesitate to walk over Anne’s still warm body and took her role as Queen. She wisely kept her mouth shut, when Henry took a mistress, because she knew Henry had no problem killing Queens. So many people saw her as a doormat. I see her as someone who knew how to play the game to get what she wanted.
I think she might have been the most cold blooded. She saw people around them doing the fight, and managed to craft herself in such a way that it's posibble henry couldn't see anything but perfect. Any trait that was know to be disliked by Henry (Catherine's stubborness, Anne's open opinions, among others) is absent in her. Such perfection couldn't possibly be random, and to have no known faux passes must have taken a lot of craft in the court game. I've always imagined the Jane we know is both a carefully crafted persona made by herself (Henry's perfect wife) and an addition of nostalgia from Hery himself. She is the one who best managed to deal with him, his know moods, and any possible enemies at court, and come out spotless. That couldn't be managed by a fool, or ignorant person.
I remember in my time in university I studied Jane Seymour...and I remember researching her and finding accouynts of Jane Seymour being hostile to Elizabeth...apparently she didnt want Elizabeth to become a princess,, its funny how she is remembered as the innocent one but if I researched her I found a very different picture
She was able to witness the downfall of two queens, and no doubt learnt from that about what not to do. Maybe a lot cleverer than she is given credit for.
Had she not died first; he would have eventually murdered her ‘legally’. The minute some scheming courtiers convinced him that his wife and her family were turning his son against him.
Personally, I'm feeling very uncomfortable about how quickly she filled in Anne's shoes while basically using the same game, marriage or no sex. I find it quite believable that she had her eyes on the prize, following Anne's precedent.
How refreshing to hear such an insightful and perceptive view of the real Jane Seymour, Dr. Kat. Consider Jane's family. Noble lords very much like Anne Boleyn's family just with the different objective to put their own girl in the king's bed. And even further...if Anne could become Queen of England no matter her quick demise then could not Jane Seymour? Oh yes, the Seymour's learned well from the Boleyn's. Yes, Jane had nerves of steel and great acting ability to imitate Anne and get the King's attention yet keep Henry's love and not end up on a chopping block. I don't think Jane kept meek and sugary towards Henry solely out of fear. She had aspirations and knew that as a woman in King Henry's court post Anne Boleyn that she had a good shot at getting her way... if she could keep a clear head, extreme determination & play the King like a fiddle. History tends to portray Jane as a Mary Sue but I disagree. This does not mean that I do not have any sympathy for Jane's short life. In considering the rights of women in the Tudor period Jane was also a pawn in her male relatives' political aspirations. The Seymours could be quiet savage. I'm thinking of Jane's brother, Thomas Seymour, uncle of King Edward VI, future husband of Katherine Parr and alleged sexual abuser of Elizabeth I. But I'll end my thoughts on Jane's brother here. That's a whopping discussion for another day. @Beth&793 and that's why I'd never want to be on Anne's sh*t list. History likes to say that Anne had to do whatever her family told her to do to get in the king's bed. Although I don't believe that she should have met a tragic demise I'm not a fan of Anne. Anne did it all on her own, her way or no way. She was Savage. Has anyone seen The Other Boleyn Girl, the original version directed by Philippa Lowthorpe as a bonus piece for BBC show on the six wives of HenryVIII? It's on Amazon Prime for free if you have Amazon. Jodhi May is incredible as Anne.
@@quedotelancine1685 well I am not sure that is true. Catherine of Aragon was educated. Anne could have asked her for help. There are people that think they know more than they do. Thomas More was a language scholar and a theologian. Having an interest in theology is not being a scholar. It is like people that read google articles and think they are an md. Anne could have feined illness or gone back to France. She wanted to be powerful and she treated Catherine and Mary terribly. She ruined Magde Shelton. I feel sorry for her because Henry killed her in such a terrible way.
I would take it a step farther and say she and her family actually fanned the flames of Anne's demise. In fairness to Anne, she wasn't out for K/Catherine of Aragon's head, but in the eyes of the political Tudor players Anne was a master political player and brilliant, thus she needed to be permanently removed.
I think the idea that she was the "obedient one" being planned by her is intriguing. It shows her as a smart strong woman who knew what she was doing. As you said Dr. Kat, she saw what happened to Henry's two other wives and figured out that if she had to be his wife, It is best to ensure she survived his wrath. I definitely think Jane was more cunning than we give her credit for but knew how to hide it so Henry and the people around her couldn't see it.What if she wanted to project that to the world being the wife that came after Anne? A "look how different I am compared to her" thing?
I think you’re absolutely right! He had two previous wives who were rather less than so obedient, and it would’ve been the better part of valour to play meek and obedient than to be like her two predecessors.
I agree. In terms of Henry's love life a lot of chaos, turbulence, change and conflicting emotions were no doubt seen so she essentially presented herself as the calm that they all needed. She knew that further rocking the boat was not what was wanted of her
Well,she had to get along, put up with Henry, now that took courage and wisdom to do, putting up with a megalomaniac psychopath king and man.Don’t forget once Henry saw a woman you just didn’t say no. Might put the lady’s family in jeopardy.
Ooh! Jane Seymour rarely gets much attention, other than being the wife that gave Henry a son who survived. I’ve always wanted to get more of her story.
I think Jane Seymour had a wider "support group" than Anne Boleyn. Outside of her family I don't think Anne had many friends and plenty of enemies. Jane [and her family] appear to have worked smoothly with Anne's enemies and succeeded in not creating new enemies for herself.
I agree, Anne was deeply unpopular in England. She replaced a queen who was loved and admired. People wanted to see Anne face Karma. Henry of course faced no repercussions for his actions.
They had a blueprint of what did not work the first time around, and they had seen Cromwell make and unmake an entire family, Queen included. It was easier for the Seymours to avoid traps the Boleyns/Howards had not seen coming.
@@nancytestani1470 Absolutely agree. Poor Mary set examples for Elizabeth her entire life for what to avoid doing! Beginning with the importance of appeasing their father, and certainly with the dangers of marriage... I feel overwhelming empathy for them both; two giants of history with incredibly complex and rich emotional tapestries that shaped not only who they became, but the future of Western civilization as a whole (ok maybe that credit goes more to the little sister hahaha but Mary did build up the navy that Elizabeth would rely on!)
Finally a more balanced view of the little we do know of Jane Seymour. I have never understood why Anne Boleyn is considered ambitious and manipulative for refusing to be Henry's mistress but Jane is declared a demure saint for the same. It's quite possible that Anne was protecting her virtue and had no idea that a king would actually put aside a princess to marry a subject. It's equally possible that Jane was ambitious and decided on her own to replicate Anne's example. Until we develop time travel (or get REAL lucky and find something new in the archives) we'll never really know.
I still don’t know about Jane I suspect she was more stoic than steely Look what the king did to his wives - what would he do if she refused his advances ! She as you said was raised to be a country gentlewoman- potentially out of her depth with all of this but she had two clearly ambitious brothers - can’t remember how or if her parents featured in her rise And I think the contrast thing is an entirely valid observation and one I think Henry applied - he’d had a foreign princess and a native born schemer I think he looked locally for a reasonably intelligent, non opinionated pretty wife with a family he could control and who would dedicate her time to producing an heir We haven’t got a sense of how Jane felt about Henry just presumably he wouldn’t take no for an answer So her being quick to fall pregnant and subsequent death does not allow her to develop in the role and for history to flesh out her character Giving Henry an heir allowed him to paint her as the perfect wife I’m sorry but I think in time Henry would have got bored with her for all the reasons her chose her in the first place
There were signs of that pretty soon after he married her. On the rare occasion that she did try to intervene in politics (at least two that we know of), she was slapped down and purportedly reminded of what happened to the previous queen who tried to meddle in domestic affairs. There were also rumours that he had begun seeing other women so it didn't take long for him to become bored with her.
For women who had little control over their own lives I've often thought how the wives of Henry VIII had to mould their own thoughts and feelings to the will and demands of others. Some more successfully than others of course, to their cost. Jane, I feel, understood better than some the situation she found herself in and managed herself carefully and quite likely fearfully to fit her circumstances.
Could not agree more. Well said! I see a lot of young people wanting to force modern social norms on to the women of the past, but it's so unfair and unrealistic to do that. No, we don't know a lot about Jane, but we certainly know a ton about how women of rank and nobility were treated back then. Henry VIII's court became such a volatile place, not just because of Henry himself, but because of the dozens of scheming noblemen looking to get a foot in the door & increase their power. Young women really were used like trade goods. I think Jane handled her situation remarkably well, she had to have her wits about her in order to not only get where she did, but in order to successfully navigate the umpteen million machinations of the men around her. I don't think she was any shivering fawn either.
I agree. Women were little more than chattel of their fathers, brothers and uncles. If the men of the family were politically motivated, women’s, especially young virginal women, were little more than a carrot to be dangled. Educating girls was the exception rather than the norm so we cannot use education as a measure of their intelligence. Jane and her family saw how successful Anne was in denying Henry her bed before marriage-indeed, the example of Mary Boleyn being just a discarded mistress not a wife.
Hi Dr. Kat! So glad to see you're back! I ABSOLUTELY agree with your analysis of Jane Seymour. I have never believed the image of her as being a kind and sweet pawn. I believe it was the Spanish ambassador who described Jane as having a cold persona as well as being an exacting mistress. But more importantly I look at the characters of her brothers, both of whom were ruthless, cunning, and ambitious men. It is quite possible that such traits ran in the family, that Jane herself had them, and that it was her own ruthless cunning and ambition which caused her to willing conspire to become the third wife and queen of Henry VIII. Because she died young and was queen for such a short time, fans of Tudor history believe the superficial tales told about her. I agree with you that there was more beneath Jane's surface than meets the eye.
Thank you so much! I've always considered Jane as a very clever ambitious woman with a very strong nerves if not ruthless. It is interesting how Anne was pictured as scheming running away from Henry's attention (when she could've not known it will just raise his interest). But Jane is praised being virtuous, doing the same (and since 'it worked' in the past we can expect more calculations here). I think she knew how to 'read the room' and benefit from her findings. Her father and brothers were very difficult man, maybe dealing with Henry was a pice of cake for her and she actually loved him because he saved her form hard life at home. Her mind was set to survive, but unfortunately her body didn't make it.
I've always felt that Jane and her family conived there way into position. They especially capitalized on Henry's growing resentment for Anne. Chapuy's notes on the words and actions when Henry wrote her, her docile type behavior, her taking Anne's position even before her bed turned cold, and her goal to reunite the Henry and Mary? These to me depicts the actions of someone who is calculating. She aimed to be the opposite of what Henry saw in both Anne and Katherine AND she had to get Anne out quicker by being the picture of purity. If she'd stayed alive, she'd eventually be figured out. Just look at Thomas and Edward Seymour in the later years.
You've given a nice discussion of the "unknown" queen. I have always thought she must have been quite skilled to survive so long at court. I think she was cautious, not stupid. I had never thought of it, but your comment that she must have been quite hard-hearted really rings true.
Still, it’s hard to overlook how ok she was immediately moving on with Henry after Anne’s death. They were betrothed only a day after and she was kept only a bit down the river down the trial as they waited for Anne to be guilty. She knew exactly what was going to happen. I personally can’t ever get past this. It’s not much diff than what Anne did to Katherine except Katherine wasn’t sent to her death over a lie.
@@AshleyLebedev Would Henry had accepted her saying no? I don't know what was going through Jane's head or anything, and I haven't read many historical accounts about her, so maybe there is something you know that I don't, but how much choice did she actually have in all of this you know, like was she the one who set the wedding date? And if it was Henry's choice was she really going to say no to the guy that was about to kill his second wife?
@@leonieromanes7265more like a megalomaniac psychopath….one had to be very careful with Henry. She kept her head, her reputation, and she had a son. What’s wrong with that? Totally amazing.
If we just look at her two brothers, Edward and Thomas, I can't believe that Jane was the innocent snowflake that Henry believed she was. I think Jane saw that the way Anne acted was not to Henry's liking anymore and being the opposite pleased him. She knew not to push Henry too far, she knew how to stop and she balanced the will of the king and the will of her familymembers. I do wonder what she would have done or asked for if she had survived.
It is very unfair that Anne Boleyn has gone down in history as 'The Temptress', whereas Jane Seymour has been labelled as 'The Obedient One'. Both were shrewd and calculated in their approach to become queen - namely to refrain from becoming the King's mistress and holding out for the ultimate prize of becoming Queen of England. Whereas Anne was open and clear in her aim for this prize and the displacement of her predecessor Catherine of Aragon, Jane played the innocent who was not aiming for this elevation by the displacement of Anne. Anne's Boleyn's failure to have a son led to her downfall on trumped up charges of treason, followed by her harrowing quick end. However, Jane Seymour's success in providing a son led to her success (in Henry's eye's at least), albeit soon leading to her early death days later. Anne's Boleyn's reputation has therefore gone down in history negatively, as a husband stealer, whore and adulteress, as opposed to Jane Seymour's reputation which has gone down positively as a loyal, obedient and successful wife. By re-evaluating Jane's character, we can see that the two women were in fact playing the same 'game of thrones'. Years after her death though, Anne Boleyn was successful in her legacy through her daughter, Elizabeth I, who was one of the greatest monarchs that England has known.
It's always seemed to me that Elizabeth was fated to be a great Queen... All the boy babies died, Mary Tudor wasn't allowed to marry young. Seymour died, after only having one boy, and he died young... He would have been worse than Bloody Mary, on the other side. It all worked out!
Agnes Strickland, a Victorian biographer, strongly condemned Jane Seymour as a homewrecker! Strickland conveniently ignored the fact that Anne Boleyn wrecked homes too....
Many years ago I played Jane Seymour in a production of "Royal Gambit". I wish I had seen this video prior to that performance. I would still have had to be true to the script and the playwright's idea of her, but this would have given me a valuable subtext. Love your channel. (from Ohio, USA)
I think people wrongly assume that Jane was just a girl who was pushed in front of the King. I think she was as calculating, if not moreso, then Anne Boleyn. It takes a cold woman with a will of steel to just sit idly by while your mistress is arraigned and held in the Tower. She was planning for her wedding while Anne was preparing to die. This is coming from someone who loves and admires Anne Boleyn, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
I totally agree with you! I think Jane (pushed by her family) is the most duplicitous of all. I just do not like her, as I feel I would not have trusted her .I would have trusted Anne, for all her faults ,because she stood by her friends. Would Jane?
Thank you for a thoughtful video on Jane Seymour, Dr. Kat. I have always thought that Jane was an intelligent & *observant* courtier who closely witnessed the behaviour of Anne Boleyn. I suspect that Jane knowingly established her 'brand' as the anti-Anne not just though her visibly demure & proper conduct prior to marriage, but also through her physical style after marriage. She adopted the more conservative gable hood of Katherine of Aragon; employed a servile motto; & lived so *carefully* that no one could accuse her of a flirtatious character....
I just can't get over the fact that Jane walked all over Anne's dead body to get to the throne and how quickly she slid into Anne's shoes as if they weren't covered in blood.
I understood it better after reading wolf hall by hillary mantell. People blamed Anne for the death of bishop Fisher, Thomas More. She was implicated in the alleged poisoning of Catherine, who was beloved. The maid of Kent was also popular and Anne got blamed. She was not well liked.
@@wednesdayschild3627That's something people don't seem to understand. Anne wasn't any better in terms of her behavior with her predecessor. She willingly and outwardly participated in the bullying of Catherine (the story of the jewels come to mind) and when she died, she and Henry celebrated by wearing yellow. The King's Court and the people around him were cutthroat in order to survive and get ahead. People were willing to tear others down for their own chance at having the King's favor and therefore their own power.
Yeah she probably did but it does not sound like Anne was exactly sympathetic to the first Queen either. I mean didn't Catherine just rot in a cold, dank castle?
@@bazejtokarski4941 No, she didn’t have a choice. Her family would’ve suffered if she didn’t except Henry. Remember, she was English. He could do what he liked with her, even have her killed. Something he didn’t dare do to his foreign born wives. What English woman would want to be his wife?
I have always thought Jane Seymour was no fool. She played the game well, her family helped to get Anne beheaded (a step further than what Anne and her family did). While she played the game perfectly acting the part of the Anti-Anne.
What a breath of fresh air you have breathed into the story of Jane Seymour, Dr. Kat! Although history well records that she was the mother of Henry's long awaited and much beloved son and heir, there is very little else with which to flesh-out her character within the books. I'm quite sure that I like your version of Jane much better! I can clearly see her now as being just like most of us ladies. We try to walk through life with sure footing but, when faced with fear, uncertainty, and/ or duty, all we can do is hold our heads up and continue to simply put one foot in front of the other.
I have heard it said that Queen Janes most astute move was to die herself, before Henry tired of her, which has more than a little truth to it, especially after her son also died. I would imagine that if Jane hadn’t already been Henry’s “martyred” wife, she would very quickly have become his “ex-wife” whether by divorce or more terminally at that point had Henry himself been alive. As it was, Henry could console himself with his “love” for his passed wife, given that there was no way her image could be tarnished with humanity, or reality, and die himself before his son, who didn’t survive his father for long
I believe Jane was educated in the "womanly" arts, which included learning to being a woman in a man's world. That took supreme intelligence along with a skilled hand at needlework.
Most of all - she was very clever it seems. It's a wise thing to learn from others' mistakes. And Jane saw two women dispatched and is later then put in their shoes - she must have been an excellent judge of character to survive "so to speak" and become the perfect memory for Henry.
So great to see you again and listen to yet another wonderfully researched and presented edition of Reading the Past. Having a cup of tea and trying to take a well needed break from all the anxiety here after events at the Capitol. Thank you so much!
In my view Jane definitely knew how to the game so she might not of had Catherine of Aragon's background or Anne Boleyn's court skills/training but within the options she had played the game and played it well. Much like Henry himself did I think the record tends to idealize her, but the fact that she such an image that is polar to Anne's to me is evidence that there is a lot going behind the scene's. She strikes me as a woman who would sit and do her needlework quietly while absorbing every said or done around her for future use, which is a kind of strength. It's not loud like some of the other wives, but there is still a power there.
She was definitely more than anyone in court thought she was. She watched and learned from her predecessors, knew what and what not to do. You can never guarantee a boy or girl but her behaviour could buy her time or save her life if needed. I think Anne Boleyn will always be my favourite but I find all the wives very interesting indeed!
Jane Seymour was lucky to die before she lost the interest of Henry. Had she lived she would have probably be exactly like Katherine of aragon was, a queen who suffers her husband's numerous mistresses quietly... I am sure she wasn't inoccent she knew exactly what she is doing when she kissed Henry's letter and sent it back unopened, reminds the way anne boleyn acted when Henry courted her....
I agree she probably did learn quite a lot through her experiences in the court with her predecessors. She may have understood Henry would respond positively to a lady who didn't want to "compromise her honor or virtue" through observing how he reacted to Anne doing the same. She also probably knew to put her head in the sand when Henry took mistresses through observing his reactions to both Catherine and Anne's respective approaches to that particular issue. Had she lived, I do think she may have been the third and final queen, I think she really did get a great "prep course" in how to deal with that man's fickle & idealistic ways. I don't think she was "boring & obedient", I think she was probably a realist who knew what she could actually expect after watching & learning.
But in being content to "put up and shut up", she was compromising herself as a person in her own right. Something neither Catherine or Anne were prepared to do. We do know that when she did attempt to (rather clumsily) intervene in politics, she failed miserably. Even Katherine Howard had managed to successfully intercede on other people's behalf. Katherine Parr would go on to help convince Henry to restore Mary and Elizabeth to the succession. Had Jane lived but failed to produce a son, I reckon she would have suffered the same fate as Anne of Cleves. While I certainly think she was more ambitious than previously thought, she still lacked the political flair and skill to influence events of the time. I think her strongest attribute was that she was a survivor.
I believe if she had lived, he probably would have continued to love her and favor her, in the same way he did Catherine of Aragon in his earlier years or how he found companionship with Catherine Parr in his later years. I don't think he would be faithful, Henry cheated on all his wives constantly regardless if he loved them or not. But if Jane had lived, she wouldn't have only given him the son he always wanted, securing his line, but also would have probably given him many more children. As long as she outlived him, giving him a spare as well, and continuing to behave as the docile wife he wanted, she would remain his beloved queen (much like Elizabeth of York and Henry VII). For history's sake it's probably best how history played out; otherwise we never would have gotten the first Queen of England with Mary I, and later the most beloved and famed monarch in Queen Elizabeth, because both of them would probably remain disinherited. Except maybe for Mary, who Jane cared very much for and might have eventually managed to convince Henry to legitimize her after making her a bastard. Although if he had other heirs, he probably wouldn't have.
"I think she had a will of iron and a spine of steel." Wow. The best, most plausible take I've ever heard on someone who always seemed simply boring. Thanks!
if she liked Catherine of Aragon she'd hate Anne so as Catherine was dead scheaming to take what she took from her mistress and help her mistresses daughter Mary and have the hatred by those Anne die was not lack of empathy or heart of stone but solid iron hatred and heart in hateful fire
Thank you! Your assessment of Jane Seymour is far more believable than the mousy little pawn theory. She was probably intelligent and shrewd enough to know that she had very little power as a female, and what power she did have, she knew where it lay. Yes, my grammar here is probably awful, lol. She doesn't sound manipulated to me, she sounds complicit, and she knew how to play her role, too. Not buying the mouse routine. I actually kind of like her better this way. Thanks for another great history lesson.
The fact that Jane attempted to work with subtle finesse to help Mary tells me she had a fine grasp of the personal and political climate associated with her difficult, unpredictable husband. To be the third choice for Queen shows her courage to maneuver Henry to a proposal of marriage and not that of just a mistress, shows very much Jane's grasp of how best to survive in Henry's favor, and ability to thrive in her relationship with him. There was nothing lacking in Jane's thinking or personal strength. By cleverly seeming biddable she safely made her way in a court where many before her perished.
That was so interesting Dr. Kat!! I never thought of Jane the way you describe but it makes sense that she would be more clever than we could know, and her early demise keeps us from having more facts about her story. Was she sweet and docile, or more knowing and worldly? I would guess the latter. Thank you for making us think about her life with Henry❣️
I've long thought she was a woman who lived by the idea of courtesy being a lady's armor. She had thoughts and opinions but she was very careful with how she expressed them and when.
Your insight, observations and well thought out opinions always make me see things that I hadn't thought about before. I am, as many people are, quite fascinated with Tudor history. It does seem that Jane, after you pointed it out, has often been the one who is overlooked and least mentioned. Maybe because there was never any "scandal" attached to her name. She was a short lived Queen, who produced the long awaited heir, and Henry had no complaints. Well as you so rightly pointed out, that could likely be because she wasn't around long enough to annoy him. It does seem quite clear that she must have been witness to the fall of Henry's two previous Queens. But I believe that even so, she probably had no choice but to fall into the roll of "next" Queen. As I've mentioned before, it is my belief that if Henry wanted to "court" a woman, that woman would really have no choice but to agree. How could anyone tell him "no"? Yes, she could insist that he treat her honorably, and she could hold out her affections until he offered marriage, which would only inflame his desire all the more, but it was her only course of action. She couldn't tell him she wasn't interested, not easy to offend a King. But she couldn't give in to any amorous demands because she would need to keep her virtue. It was a very delicate and somewhat dangerous game that women had to play back then, just to stay alive. Not offend, but at the same time not concede her honor (or virginity). It was their only card to play. Jane played that card brilliantly.
Both parties had to fully & freely consent to a marriage, or it wasn't valid. Women weren't forced into marriage, they had to agree, but it's hard for us to understand what a 16thc woman would want or expect from marriage. They might be delighted to marry a much older man they barely know because he's rich & titled, but some did marry for love. It was easier for peasants; it's when there's lots of land & titles etc, & you believe you're naturally superior to commoners, that your definition of a "good husband" becomes much stricter- there just aren't as many nobles & gentry.
I became fascinated by the six wives of Henry VIII when I was in my very early teen years. I love your videos about them. Keep up the good work! Edit: There is a young adult series of books about the six wives of Henry VII...each queen had a book. Does anyone remember that?
I find this all very interesting. I have found that Jane's sister Elizabeth and Gregory Cromwell are my 12th Great Grandparents. I love that I can hear about what my ancestors did and how they lived. Love the videos!
Thank you for your well considered commentary and giving us the opportunity to consider Jane through a different lens, as always you present a fascinating reading of the past.
Fascinating video! Jane Seymour definitely carefully observed and learned what Anne did to turn Henry's head, and probably noticed how Henry had changed his behavior around Anne after they got married. If he wanted a fiery, flirty mistress, he wanted a calm, obedient wife. And Jane saw that if she played the calm obedient wife, that would become true. She had to understand exactly what was happening if she was going to step into Anne Boleyn's enormous shoes not 10 days after her execution. That did require nerves of steel. But after giving Henry his longed for son, would he have treated her so badly, and could she have behaved so badly, to have wound up like Anne? I have heard that Henry did not treat Jane well or kindly after they got married, and indeed she took a long time to conceive. Is there any truth to this, that he treated her badly?
I think Jane had balls!!! To see the man she’s “reeling in” dispose of his 2 previous wives so callously & STILL become betrothed to that same man the day AFTER Anne’s execution. Yeah that takes guts. Catherine of Aragon’s dismissal after DECADES of loyalty to Henry, idk if I’d be so quick get married, BUT, the real danger is saying “no”!!! Too bad she didn’t have twins!!! Boys too!!!! Thank you for this channel. I enjoy your narration & thank you for fixing the audio!!!
How refreshing to hear such an insightful and perceptive view of the real Jane Seymour, Dr. Kat. Consider Jane's family. Noble lords very much like Anne Boleyn's family just with the different objective to put their own girl in the king's bed. And even further...if Anne could become Queen of England no matter her quick demise then could not Jane Seymour? Oh yes, the Seymour's learned well from the Boleyn's. Yes, Jane had nerves of steel and great acting ability to imitate Anne and get the King's attention yet keep Henry's love and not end up on a chopping block. I don't think Jane kept meek and sugary towards Henry solely out of fear. She had aspirations and knew that as a woman in King Henry's court post Anne Boleyn that she had a good shot at getting her way... if she could keep a clear head, extreme determination & play the King like a fiddle. History tends to portray Jane as a Mary Sue but I disagree. This does not mean that I do not have any sympathy for Jane's short life. In considering the rights of women in the Tudor period Jane was also a pawn in her male relatives' political aspirations. The Seymours could be quiet savage. I'm thinking of Jane's brother, Thomas Seymour, uncle of King Edward VI, future husband of Katherine Parr and alleged sexual abuser of Elizabeth I. But I'll end my thoughts on Jane's brother here. That's a whopping discussion for another day.
What I really love most about this assessment is that it begins with the fact that these women were people far beyond the rhyme. The "ugly one" and "the tart" and "the nursemaid," etc. It's just not fair that as adults we continue to identify them by these boxes we put around them. Weirdly, I feel like I have more understanding of Jane than I do of Catherine Parr. And, of course, now I have to go back and listen to that one. But this was an awesome assessment, and I was riveted, as I am to all of your videos. I feel like she was very smart in how she approached her marriage. She knew what she was doing, and she knew how to survive him -- maybe not survive nature, unfortunately, but how to survive Henry. Thank you for continuing to make these videos! I would really like to see your take on Jack the Ripper. I know he's not early modern, now, is he? But I'm quite interested in your take. I'm fairly convinced he was Leschmere, but I'm dying to see a series from you on him. I'd also love to see a reaction video from you on pretty much any period show out there, but especially some of the non-fiction "history" documentaries. I think some of them get it wrong, so I'd love to see a history documentary reaction video. Basically, read the phonebook, Dr. Kat, I'll be there.
Love your channel!! I would also love to see a video from you on Marie de Guise, mother of Mary Queen of Scots, I visited Scotland and Edinburgh and Sterling castles and I’ve always wondered about her...
So lovely to see you/this today!!! I think Claire Ridgeway mentioned that Jane seems to have gotten the better portrayal through appearing weak, while probably actually 'playing the game' with more foreknowledge of her possible outcome than Anne did. The more I learn about Jane, the more impressed I am that she managed to keep her hands as clean as she did. I'm increasingly curious about the what-ifs with her, because it seems like I keep turning around and learning about different facets of her character outside the saintly image!
Hi Dr Kat! Another amazing video. I've always been intrigued by Henry's older sister Margaret (regent) Queen of Scots. I would adore a video about her or better yet one for each of his siblings. Cheers!
I've never thought that Jane really had that much control in the situation. You don't reject a King who doesn't have enough blood in the system to run both heads at the same time.
I'd love to hear your opinion about Catherine of Aragon. I never thought of Jane Seymour as weak but then the only thing that springs to my mind about her is that she produced a heir and thus appeased Henry. Who knows what might have become of her if she didn't die so soon?
Oooh Tudor Tea, my favorite! I've never 'liked' Jane Seymour, she always seemed manipulative. Your succinct description of the situation only strengthens this feeling. I do like to consider if she could have kept Henry's interest for long. He wouldn't have divorced her, as mother of his heir, but would he have side-lined her later?
My feelings exactly. I think he would have grown very tired of her very quickly ,but he would have been stuck with her, because she had given him what he wanted. So she would have had to put up and shut up with his philandering as Katherine before her had done, but with less injustice. A woman who did an 'Anne Boleyn' but stood by while 6 innocent people died to achieve her and her families ambition is no saint in my opinion. Dying did her reputation a lot more good than living would have done! That would have been interesting wouldn't it? To me she is the worst of Henry's wives. Duplicitous and cunning in a way that makes Anne look an amateur She was Far too principled to accept Henry's gifts, but not to sit in his lap for example I would have liked to have seen her live, so they could have both lived Unhappily Ever After! Lol
@@hogwashmcturnip8930 It also shows to me how naïve Henry could be. It perhaps didn't occur to him that Jane might just be playing the game when she made a big drama about not wanting to injure her honour "for a thousand deaths" on rejecting his gifts. He didn't see that he was being played by Seymour and her allies.
@@sayitlikeitis5026 Good point. That is a trait that shows quite often if you think about, none moreso than in the Katherine Howard debacle. Henry was a Control Freak, someone who liked to think he held others in his power. He doesn't seem to have noticed that this left him wide open to manipulation himself. Most of his courtiers seemed to have worked it out!
Thank you for this video! I think perhaps she's the one who gets the least attention of all the wives, Jane Seymour has always been the one that intrigued me the most. I really wish we knew more about her.
Dr. Kat, I am an avid watcher of your videos and I must say this one may be one of my favorites. You do a great job of reminding us to question the narrative, perspective, and motive of our sources, even if they are primary sources. I really wonder whether Jane stayed at Wolf Hall or Hampton Court during those 2 years - I can't imagine what it would have been like to be at court during that time. I appreciate as well that you outlined where Jane was sequestered during her pregnancy. I urge anyone who can to visit Hampton Court Palace - it's much smaller than I imagined, and it makes me view the events surrounding the wives of Henry VIII differently. Thank you Dr. Kat!
Janes always been my least favorite of his queens. While there’s tons of evidence showing that Henry and Catherine hadn’t been intimate for years and that he and Wolsey were already talking about his potential for a divorce before he met Anne, plus her early “hard to get” behavior seems far more like she really didn’t want him and was trying to be polite but not lead him on-so much so that she even left court for her family home. In my mind, Jane is far more the devious one, and I think she was jealous of Anne since they both apparently had served as ladies in waiting to Catherine of Aragon and Jane was ignored and looked over in favor of Anne for years so I think that Jane wasn’t so much very intelligent-though far more so than she’s given credit for-I just think she was extremely lucky in that she had a front row seat to the downfall of two previous queens that she could learn from. I think Jane was a far more devious and manipulative character than she’s made out to be because again she was lucky enough to be the one to give Henry a son. She also was in a relationship (even if it wasn’t sexual) with Henry while Anne was pregnant and so I’ve never understood how Anne could be portrayed as this evil seductress when it was apparent that Henry and Catherine had been on the rocks and hadn’t had any children together for years while Jane gets portrayed as this innocent angel when she was the one who went after the king while he had a pregnant wife. Plus, with Anne it was different as Catherine was divorced not beheaded and so it’s super sketchy and cold blooded to get married to a man literally days after he killed his wife. Plus, while Jane is known to have had affection for Mary, she completely ignored Elizabeth-showing that Jane’s “kindness” definitely had it limits. To me, her overly exaggerated humility was an obvious ploy that she saw worked for Anne and then she made it so that she became her complete opposite in every way. Plus, even some of her contemporaries expressed doubt that she could be that innocent, with Chapyus saying he doubted she’d made it to her age still a virgin in Henry’s court, as Jane wasn’t much younger than Anne and was seen as an old maid at the time, in fact Chapyus only changed his tune once he knew of her efforts to help Mary, but it just goes to show she wasn’t this angel that history has made her out to be. She was pious and obedient but also manipulative and harsh in how she went about erasing any of Anne’s legacy at court by banning the French dress favored by Anne and supposedly having very strict expectations for her ladies in waiting to the point of being rather harsh and cold towards anyone who didn’t meet her expectations.
Anne got back exactly what she did to Henry's 1st wife. No onebknows what happened in Henry and Katherine's privacy. Katherine had 4 or more children both boys and girls, only Mary survived. Katherine was getting on in years so maybe they were having less sex. Or he was tired and having other relationships. As we've heard he was even having an affair with Mary, Anne's older sister. Annd knew that. They even manipulated religion and changed England's religion in order to get married. So it's hard to point who was worse than who! They were all pretty immoral at that time. He'd also married Katherine who'd been his brother's wife.
I've been reading Alison Weir's series Six Tudor Queens, so watching your videos is an added bonus. I've forwarded some of your videos to my sister who is now also hooked. :-)
Would be interesting to take a tour of the palaces or see the layouts. Maybe highlighting where certain events took place. Maybe where everyday life happened. I can’t ever wrap my head around “court” and how it worked. Thanks for the great lessons!
Dear Dr.Kat..I checked to be sure I was still Subscribed and I am! I really enjoy your channel and look forward to your upcoming reading of Catherine of Aragon. Happy New Year
Perhaps she was clever enough to learn from what had happened around her. Her short life as queen has meant that she hasn’t received much attention from historians. Thank you for making this video, Dr. Kat.
Hi Dr Kat - I am so enjoying working my way through your RUclips videos - history being one of my favourate subjects. Have you made one about Katherine Swynford - sister in law to Chaucer?
I agree that her story of being virtuous and not bright does not match with the composition of many of the women at court. I do not believe a woman could survive in that environment long with being dull or naive. Thank you for you continued scholarship. I very much enjoy your videos and look forward to them each week!
So many say Jane was Anne's "fate" or "karma" (Yikes) but Jane's fate as well as her family's makes me think. Not only did giving birth to Henry's much desired heir kill her but.... her much adored son died before adulthood....but he also had Jane's beloved brothers executed and the way he wrote about that in his journal is sickening.... And then Elizabeth, much maligned and traumatized, TRIUMPHED over them all and became GLORIANA. In the long term, Anne Boleyn had the last laugh and "won".
Thankyou so much for a wonderful channel . I was talking with a friend who also loves history and she was telling me of Aethelflad daughter of King Alfred . Have you done an episode on Aethelflad - lady of Mercia ? It would be good to get more on her as one of the somewhat forgotten women of our British history . Why is Boudicca so famous but she falls through the cracks ? Thanks again for such a fantastic and informative channel.
Truly there is nothing better than a long lush weekend breakfast while dr Kat takes our minds out for a refeshing walk into reflection. precious gifts you give us, thank you.
I think ultimately that Jane was a very clever young woman. She knew first hand how things worked at Court from being a lady-in-waiting, had seen the two queens before her got rid of and was ambitious, but she had enough nouse about her to play the game and be able to play it well enough for Henry to think she was perfection personified. Sending the king's letter back unopened after getting a bit swoony over it will have been a total master stroke and helped to ramp up the image of her perfection.
Thank you for this on Jane Seymour. I was suddenly struck by the age of Jane. One sees and knows the dates, but doesn't actually comprehend that Jane was in her mid to late 20's. Perhaps the famous portrait influences this. It has always made her look like younger to me. I am also glad of your description of her personality. It is one thing to be obedient to the men around you, but quite another to actually take an oath before God and the King to be a wife to that King. If she was as timid as history seems to depict her, then I do not see how she did not run away into the night after witnessing what had happened to the two previous wives. Your description of her makes it much more believable how she could remain his wife. I am not sure I could have manage that.
It might be ironic to write this but to me Jane Seymour was a "survivor" an observer. She was defeated by her body not by her ( real or invented) actions. She might have had empathy as well. It helps to understand others actions and she tried to better father/daughter's relationship. Loved this video. Thank you
DISDAINED I think you are spot on Kat, and now, the expert opinion I've long needed to bolster our shared opinion and the argument I've espoused for 40 years !! I've been poo pooed by scholars and laymen alike in saying Seymour was a "steel magnolia" who handled herself with consummate deftness in her relationships with the Court, family and Henry, an Olympian skillset during that era.
I imagine Jane was terrified most of the time she was being pursued by Henry and of course AFTER they wed. She had seen what happened to her predecessors. I feel she was brilliant and scared. Fighting to survive by playing the game that had been lost by two before her. Sadly, her brave, cool façade did not prevent her from dying after she gave Henry the sought after prize of a living son. But I feel she did everything in a very calculated way to try to survive. She could not escape so she played to survive.
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I agree, 100%, that Jane is too easily dismissed. She died so quickly, that history failed to really record the woman she was. Common sense tells me that any woman who managed to attract Henry VIII and convince him to allow Mary back to court was no dummy.
In fairness, it was Mary's decision to agree to her own illegitimacy that convinced Henry to allow her back to court.
@@sayitlikeitis5026 Agreed 100%
I chuckled at the descriptions of the wives. However, I always shake my head at Anne of Cleves being described as ugly. Her portrait is so sweet. She is also, in my opinion, pretty darn smart. She escaped Henry's "attentions", after all.
Anne of Cleves is my favorite. The show “Time Team” visits her house in one episode and shows off the original timbered ceiling hidden in the attic.
It is doubtful as to whether the portrait was an authentic portrayal of Anne. It was quite usual in Tudor times (as is today), to flatter the subject, always a risk, but evidently one worth taking by playing on Henry’s desperation for a new, nubile wife. Am not saying she was as plain as Henry found her but it was generally agreed that she “possessed a strange odour”. In other words, she was lacking in personal hygiene, and Henry was a fastidious man in that department,
"strange odour" doesn't have to be lack of hygiene. It can be other eating habits or even a different perfume or different herb used to fold with her clothes
And out lived them allxxx
I personally believe that Jane knew exactly what she was doing. She knew Anne’s days where numbered and she carefully manipulated Henry playing up her innocence. She didn’t hesitate to walk over Anne’s still warm body and took her role as Queen. She wisely kept her mouth shut, when Henry took a mistress, because she knew Henry had no problem killing Queens. So many people saw her as a doormat. I see her as someone who knew how to play the game to get what she wanted.
Yes, I agree. Jane definitely knew how to play the game.
Nice take.
Absolutely! She was not one bit less cunning than Anne but she wasn't as open about it because she saw what happened to Anne
I think she wanted to please her family. I also think she deeply admired Catalina de Aragon and disliked Anne Boleyn.
@@TheTudorTravelGuide what are you trying to say? 😭 is she evil or smth?
I think she might have been the most cold blooded. She saw people around them doing the fight, and managed to craft herself in such a way that it's posibble henry couldn't see anything but perfect. Any trait that was know to be disliked by Henry (Catherine's stubborness, Anne's open opinions, among others) is absent in her. Such perfection couldn't possibly be random, and to have no known faux passes must have taken a lot of craft in the court game.
I've always imagined the Jane we know is both a carefully crafted persona made by herself (Henry's perfect wife) and an addition of nostalgia from Hery himself. She is the one who best managed to deal with him, his know moods, and any possible enemies at court, and come out spotless. That couldn't be managed by a fool, or ignorant person.
How do you know her inner motivations from our vantage point in 2022?
I remember in my time in university I studied Jane Seymour...and I remember researching her and finding accouynts of Jane Seymour being hostile to Elizabeth...apparently she didnt want Elizabeth to become a princess,, its funny how she is remembered as the innocent one but if I researched her I found a very different picture
She was able to witness the downfall of two queens, and no doubt learnt from that about what not to do. Maybe a lot cleverer than she is given credit for.
True! She was wise and strong!
First rule of queenhood: bear a son.
And a lot more cunning and ambitious...
Dont give the milk away for free seems to be a trend too
Had she not died first; he would have eventually murdered her ‘legally’. The minute some scheming courtiers convinced him that his wife and her family were turning his son against him.
Personally, I'm feeling very uncomfortable about how quickly she filled in Anne's shoes while basically using the same game, marriage or no sex. I find it quite believable that she had her eyes on the prize, following Anne's precedent.
Yes, whereas Anne had no precedent whatsoever, which people forget when they talk of her being so ambitious & plotting to overthrow Catherine.
How refreshing to hear such an insightful and perceptive view of the real Jane Seymour, Dr. Kat. Consider Jane's family. Noble lords very much like Anne Boleyn's family just with the different objective to put their own girl in the king's bed. And even further...if Anne could become Queen of England no matter her quick demise then could not Jane Seymour? Oh yes, the Seymour's learned well from the Boleyn's. Yes, Jane had nerves of steel and great acting ability to imitate Anne and get the King's attention yet keep Henry's love and not end up on a chopping block. I don't think Jane kept meek and sugary towards Henry solely out of fear. She had aspirations and knew that as a woman in King Henry's court post Anne Boleyn that she had a good shot at getting her way... if she could keep a clear head, extreme determination & play the King like a fiddle. History tends to portray Jane as a Mary Sue but I disagree. This does not mean that I do not have any sympathy for Jane's short life. In considering the rights of women in the Tudor period Jane was also a pawn in her male relatives' political aspirations. The
Seymours could be quiet savage. I'm thinking of Jane's brother, Thomas Seymour, uncle of King Edward VI, future husband of Katherine Parr and alleged sexual abuser of Elizabeth I. But I'll end my thoughts on Jane's brother here. That's a whopping discussion for another day.
@Beth&793 and that's why I'd never want to be on Anne's sh*t list.
History likes to say that Anne had to do whatever her family told her to do to get in the king's bed. Although I don't believe that she should have met a tragic demise I'm not a fan of Anne.
Anne did it all on her own, her way or no way. She was Savage.
Has anyone seen The Other Boleyn Girl, the original version directed by Philippa Lowthorpe as a bonus piece for BBC show on the six wives of HenryVIII? It's on Amazon Prime for free if you have Amazon. Jodhi May is incredible as Anne.
How do we know? Maybe jane was sincere. She told him she wanted to have a good marriage. Everyone assumes she was playing hard to get
@@quedotelancine1685 well I am not sure that is true. Catherine of Aragon was educated. Anne could have asked her for help. There are people that think they know more than they do. Thomas More was a language scholar and a theologian. Having an interest in theology is not being a scholar. It is like people that read google articles and think they are an md. Anne could have feined illness or gone back to France. She wanted to be powerful and she treated Catherine and Mary terribly. She ruined Magde Shelton. I feel sorry for her because Henry killed her in such a terrible way.
I would take it a step farther and say she and her family actually fanned the flames of Anne's demise. In fairness to Anne, she wasn't out for K/Catherine of Aragon's head, but in the eyes of the political Tudor players Anne was a master political player and brilliant, thus she needed to be permanently removed.
I think the idea that she was the "obedient one" being planned by her is intriguing. It shows her as a smart strong woman who knew what she was doing. As you said Dr. Kat, she saw what happened to Henry's two other wives and figured out that if she had to be his wife, It is best to ensure she survived his wrath. I definitely think Jane was more cunning than we give her credit for but knew how to hide it so Henry and the people around her couldn't see it.What if she wanted to project that to the world being the wife that came after Anne? A "look how different I am compared to her" thing?
I think you’re absolutely right! He had two previous wives who were rather less than so obedient, and it would’ve been the better part of valour to play meek and obedient than to be like her two predecessors.
Jane's appeal to Henry most likely lay in that her personality and looks differed from Ann's.
I agree. In terms of Henry's love life a lot of chaos, turbulence, change and conflicting emotions were no doubt seen so she essentially presented herself as the calm that they all needed. She knew that further rocking the boat was not what was wanted of her
Well,she had to get along, put up with Henry, now that took courage and wisdom to do, putting up with a megalomaniac psychopath king and man.Don’t forget once Henry saw a woman you just didn’t say no. Might put the lady’s family in jeopardy.
@@timefooleryHenry did not like too feisty of women eventually.
Ooh! Jane Seymour rarely gets much attention, other than being the wife that gave Henry a son who survived. I’ve always wanted to get more of her story.
Yes, me too!
Me too
I think Jane was meek and gentle but had an inner strength and intelligence that she could call upon when needed.
I love you Dr. Kat! “Died before she could annoy him!” How true.
I think Jane Seymour had a wider "support group" than Anne Boleyn. Outside of her family I don't think Anne had many friends and plenty of enemies. Jane [and her family] appear to have worked smoothly with Anne's enemies and succeeded in not creating new enemies for herself.
I agree, Anne was deeply unpopular in England. She replaced a queen who was loved and admired. People wanted to see Anne face Karma. Henry of course faced no repercussions for his actions.
Good point
They had a blueprint of what did not work the first time around, and they had seen Cromwell make and unmake an entire family, Queen included. It was easier for the Seymours to avoid traps the Boleyns/Howards had not seen coming.
@@obcl8569same with Elizabeth1, learned from Mary 1 how to be a queen, some of it anyway.
@@nancytestani1470 Absolutely agree. Poor Mary set examples for Elizabeth her entire life for what to avoid doing! Beginning with the importance of appeasing their father, and certainly with the dangers of marriage... I feel overwhelming empathy for them both; two giants of history with incredibly complex and rich emotional tapestries that shaped not only who they became, but the future of Western civilization as a whole (ok maybe that credit goes more to the little sister hahaha but Mary did build up the navy that Elizabeth would rely on!)
Finally a more balanced view of the little we do know of Jane Seymour. I have never understood why Anne Boleyn is considered ambitious and manipulative for refusing to be Henry's mistress but Jane is declared a demure saint for the same. It's quite possible that Anne was protecting her virtue and had no idea that a king would actually put aside a princess to marry a subject. It's equally possible that Jane was ambitious and decided on her own to replicate Anne's example. Until we develop time travel (or get REAL lucky and find something new in the archives) we'll never really know.
I still don’t know about Jane I suspect she was more stoic than steely Look what the king did to his wives - what would he do if she refused his advances ! She as you said was raised to be a country gentlewoman- potentially out of her depth with all of this but she had two clearly ambitious brothers - can’t remember how or if her parents featured in her rise
And I think the contrast thing is an entirely valid observation and one I think Henry applied - he’d had a foreign princess and a native born schemer I think he looked locally for a reasonably intelligent, non opinionated pretty wife with a family he could control and who would dedicate her time to producing an heir
We haven’t got a sense of how Jane felt about Henry just presumably he wouldn’t take no for an answer
So her being quick to fall pregnant and subsequent death does not allow her to develop in the role and for history to flesh out her character
Giving Henry an heir allowed him to paint her as the perfect wife
I’m sorry but I think in time Henry would have got bored with her for all the reasons her chose her in the first place
There were signs of that pretty soon after he married her. On the rare occasion that she did try to intervene in politics (at least two that we know of), she was slapped down and purportedly reminded of what happened to the previous queen who tried to meddle in domestic affairs. There were also rumours that he had begun seeing other women so it didn't take long for him to become bored with her.
For women who had little control over their own lives I've often thought how the wives of Henry VIII had to mould their own thoughts and feelings to the will and demands of others. Some more successfully than others of course, to their cost. Jane, I feel, understood better than some the situation she found herself in and managed herself carefully and quite likely fearfully to fit her circumstances.
Could not agree more. Well said!
I see a lot of young people wanting to force modern social norms on to the women of the past, but it's so unfair and unrealistic to do that.
No, we don't know a lot about Jane, but we certainly know a ton about how women of rank and nobility were treated back then. Henry VIII's court became such a volatile place, not just because of Henry himself, but because of the dozens of scheming noblemen looking to get a foot in the door & increase their power. Young women really were used like trade goods.
I think Jane handled her situation remarkably well, she had to have her wits about her in order to not only get where she did, but in order to successfully navigate the umpteen million machinations of the men around her. I don't think she was any shivering fawn either.
I agree. Women were little more than chattel of their fathers, brothers and uncles. If the men of the family were politically motivated, women’s, especially young virginal women, were little more than a carrot to be dangled. Educating girls was the exception rather than the norm so we cannot use education as a measure of their intelligence. Jane and her family saw how successful Anne was in denying Henry her bed before marriage-indeed, the example of Mary Boleyn being just a discarded mistress not a wife.
Hi Dr. Kat! So glad to see you're back! I ABSOLUTELY agree with your analysis of Jane Seymour. I have never believed the image of her as being a kind and sweet pawn. I believe it was the Spanish ambassador who described Jane as having a cold persona as well as being an exacting mistress. But more importantly I look at the characters of her brothers, both of whom were ruthless, cunning, and ambitious men. It is quite possible that such traits ran in the family, that Jane herself had them, and that it was her own ruthless cunning and ambition which caused her to willing conspire to become the third wife and queen of Henry VIII. Because she died young and was queen for such a short time, fans of Tudor history believe the superficial tales told about her. I agree with you that there was more beneath Jane's surface than meets the eye.
Thank you so much! I've always considered Jane as a very clever ambitious woman with a very strong nerves if not ruthless. It is interesting how Anne was pictured as scheming running away from Henry's attention (when she could've not known it will just raise his interest). But Jane is praised being virtuous, doing the same (and since 'it worked' in the past we can expect more calculations here). I think she knew how to 'read the room' and benefit from her findings. Her father and brothers were very difficult man, maybe dealing with Henry was a pice of cake for her and she actually loved him because he saved her form hard life at home. Her mind was set to survive, but unfortunately her body didn't make it.
I've always felt that Jane and her family conived there way into position. They especially capitalized on Henry's growing resentment for Anne. Chapuy's notes on the words and actions when Henry wrote her, her docile type behavior, her taking Anne's position even before her bed turned cold, and her goal to reunite the Henry and Mary? These to me depicts the actions of someone who is calculating. She aimed to be the opposite of what Henry saw in both Anne and Katherine AND she had to get Anne out quicker by being the picture of purity. If she'd stayed alive, she'd eventually be figured out. Just look at Thomas and Edward Seymour in the later years.
You've given a nice discussion of the "unknown" queen. I have always thought she must have been quite skilled to survive so long at court. I think she was cautious, not stupid. I had never thought of it, but your comment that she must have been quite hard-hearted really rings true.
I think she was a very clever young lady and as is said still water’s run deep
I think she was wise enough to not broadcast her intelligence around a very dangerous narcissist.
Still, it’s hard to overlook how ok she was immediately moving on with Henry after Anne’s death. They were betrothed only a day after and she was kept only a bit down the river down the trial as they waited for Anne to be guilty. She knew exactly what was going to happen. I personally can’t ever get past this. It’s not much diff than what Anne did to Katherine except Katherine wasn’t sent to her death over a lie.
@@AshleyLebedev Would Henry had accepted her saying no? I don't know what was going through Jane's head or anything, and I haven't read many historical accounts about her, so maybe there is something you know that I don't, but how much choice did she actually have in all of this you know, like was she the one who set the wedding date? And if it was Henry's choice was she really going to say no to the guy that was about to kill his second wife?
Yes
@@leonieromanes7265more like a megalomaniac psychopath….one had to be very careful with Henry. She kept her head, her reputation, and she had a son. What’s wrong with that? Totally amazing.
If we just look at her two brothers, Edward and Thomas, I can't believe that Jane was the innocent snowflake that Henry believed she was. I think Jane saw that the way Anne acted was not to Henry's liking anymore and being the opposite pleased him. She knew not to push Henry too far, she knew how to stop and she balanced the will of the king and the will of her familymembers. I do wonder what she would have done or asked for if she had survived.
This makes a lot of sense! She did have a ring side seat to the rise and fall of 2 prior queens. Well played Jane!
It is very unfair that Anne Boleyn has gone down in history as 'The Temptress', whereas Jane Seymour has been labelled as 'The Obedient One'. Both were shrewd and calculated in their approach to become queen - namely to refrain from becoming the King's mistress and holding out for the ultimate prize of becoming Queen of England. Whereas Anne was open and clear in her aim for this prize and the displacement of her predecessor Catherine of Aragon, Jane played the innocent who was not aiming for this elevation by the displacement of Anne.
Anne's Boleyn's failure to have a son led to her downfall on trumped up charges of treason, followed by her harrowing quick end. However, Jane Seymour's success in providing a son led to her success (in Henry's eye's at least), albeit soon leading to her early death days later. Anne's Boleyn's reputation has therefore gone down in history negatively, as a husband stealer, whore and adulteress, as opposed to Jane Seymour's reputation which has gone down positively as a loyal, obedient and successful wife. By re-evaluating Jane's character, we can see that the two women were in fact playing the same 'game of thrones'. Years after her death though, Anne Boleyn was successful in her legacy through her daughter, Elizabeth I, who was one of the greatest monarchs that England has known.
It's always seemed to me that Elizabeth was fated to be a great Queen... All the boy babies died, Mary Tudor wasn't allowed to marry young. Seymour died, after only having one boy, and he died young... He would have been worse than Bloody Mary, on the other side. It all worked out!
Agnes Strickland, a Victorian biographer, strongly condemned Jane Seymour as a homewrecker! Strickland conveniently ignored the fact that Anne Boleyn wrecked homes too....
Many years ago I played Jane Seymour in a production of "Royal Gambit". I wish I had seen this video prior to that performance. I would still have had to be true to the script and the playwright's idea of her, but this would have given me a valuable subtext. Love your channel. (from Ohio, USA)
I think people wrongly assume that Jane was just a girl who was pushed in front of the King. I think she was as calculating, if not moreso, then Anne Boleyn. It takes a cold woman with a will of steel to just sit idly by while your mistress is arraigned and held in the Tower. She was planning for her wedding while Anne was preparing to die. This is coming from someone who loves and admires Anne Boleyn, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
I totally agree with you! I think Jane (pushed by her family) is the most duplicitous of all. I just do not like her, as I feel I would not have trusted her .I would have trusted Anne, for all her faults ,because she stood by her friends. Would Jane?
As a Jane fan, yeah she totally did. She was ruthless and I love her sm for it idk why.
Jane Seymour seems to have been calm, clever and did what she had to do. Being pursued by Henry VIII in such circumstances would have been terrifying.
Thank you for a thoughtful video on Jane Seymour, Dr. Kat. I have always thought that Jane was an intelligent & *observant* courtier who closely witnessed the behaviour of Anne Boleyn. I suspect that Jane knowingly established her 'brand' as the anti-Anne not just though her visibly demure & proper conduct prior to marriage, but also through her physical style after marriage. She adopted the more conservative gable hood of Katherine of Aragon; employed a servile motto; & lived so *carefully* that no one could accuse her of a flirtatious character....
I just can't get over the fact that Jane walked all over Anne's dead body to get to the throne and how quickly she slid into Anne's shoes as if they weren't covered in blood.
I understood it better after reading wolf hall by hillary mantell. People blamed Anne for the death of bishop Fisher, Thomas More. She was implicated in the alleged poisoning of Catherine, who was beloved. The maid of Kent was also popular and Anne got blamed. She was not well liked.
Like she had a choice...
@@wednesdayschild3627That's something people don't seem to understand.
Anne wasn't any better in terms of her behavior with her predecessor. She willingly and outwardly participated in the bullying of Catherine (the story of the jewels come to mind) and when she died, she and Henry celebrated by wearing yellow.
The King's Court and the people around him were cutthroat in order to survive and get ahead. People were willing to tear others down for their own chance at having the King's favor and therefore their own power.
Yeah she probably did but it does not sound like Anne was exactly sympathetic to the first Queen either. I mean didn't Catherine just rot in a cold, dank castle?
@@bazejtokarski4941 No, she didn’t have a choice. Her family would’ve suffered if she didn’t except Henry. Remember, she was English. He could do what he liked with her, even have her killed. Something he didn’t dare do to his foreign born wives. What English woman would want to be his wife?
I have always thought Jane Seymour was no fool. She played the game well, her family helped to get Anne beheaded (a step further than what Anne and her family did). While she played the game perfectly acting the part of the Anti-Anne.
What a breath of fresh air you have breathed into the story of Jane Seymour, Dr. Kat! Although history well records that she was the mother of Henry's long awaited and much beloved son and heir, there is very little else with which to flesh-out her character within the books. I'm quite sure that I like your version of Jane much better! I can clearly see her now as being just like most of us ladies. We try to walk through life with sure footing but, when faced with fear, uncertainty, and/ or duty, all we can do is hold our heads up and continue to simply put one foot in front of the other.
I have heard it said that Queen Janes most astute move was to die herself, before Henry tired of her, which has more than a little truth to it, especially after her son also died. I would imagine that if Jane hadn’t already been Henry’s “martyred” wife, she would very quickly have become his “ex-wife” whether by divorce or more terminally at that point had Henry himself been alive. As it was, Henry could console himself with his “love” for his passed wife, given that there was no way her image could be tarnished with humanity, or reality, and die himself before his son, who didn’t survive his father for long
I believe Jane was educated in the "womanly" arts, which included learning to being a woman in a man's world. That took supreme intelligence along with a skilled hand at needlework.
Most of all - she was very clever it seems. It's a wise thing to learn from others' mistakes. And Jane saw two women dispatched and is later then put in their shoes - she must have been an excellent judge of character to survive "so to speak" and become the perfect memory for Henry.
So great to see you again and listen to yet another wonderfully researched and presented edition of Reading the Past. Having a cup of tea and trying to take a well needed break from all the anxiety here after events at the Capitol. Thank you so much!
In my view Jane definitely knew how to the game so she might not of had Catherine of Aragon's background or Anne Boleyn's court skills/training but within the options she had played the game and played it well. Much like Henry himself did I think the record tends to idealize her, but the fact that she such an image that is polar to Anne's to me is evidence that there is a lot going behind the scene's. She strikes me as a woman who would sit and do her needlework quietly while absorbing every said or done around her for future use, which is a kind of strength. It's not loud like some of the other wives, but there is still a power there.
She was definitely more than anyone in court thought she was. She watched and learned from her predecessors, knew what and what not to do. You can never guarantee a boy or girl but her behaviour could buy her time or save her life if needed.
I think Anne Boleyn will always be my favourite but I find all the wives very interesting indeed!
Jane Seymour was lucky to die before she lost the interest of Henry. Had she lived she would have probably be exactly like Katherine of aragon was, a queen who suffers her husband's numerous mistresses quietly...
I am sure she wasn't inoccent she knew exactly what she is doing when she kissed Henry's letter and sent it back unopened, reminds the way anne boleyn acted when Henry courted her....
I agree she probably did learn quite a lot through her experiences in the court with her predecessors.
She may have understood Henry would respond positively to a lady who didn't want to "compromise her honor or virtue" through observing how he reacted to Anne doing the same. She also probably knew to put her head in the sand when Henry took mistresses through observing his reactions to both Catherine and Anne's respective approaches to that particular issue.
Had she lived, I do think she may have been the third and final queen, I think she really did get a great "prep course" in how to deal with that man's fickle & idealistic ways. I don't think she was "boring & obedient", I think she was probably a realist who knew what she could actually expect after watching & learning.
@@GlorianaLovejoy totally agreed.
But in being content to "put up and shut up", she was compromising herself as a person in her own right. Something neither Catherine or Anne were prepared to do. We do know that when she did attempt to (rather clumsily) intervene in politics, she failed miserably.
Even Katherine Howard had managed to successfully intercede on other people's behalf.
Katherine Parr would go on to help convince Henry to restore Mary and Elizabeth to the succession.
Had Jane lived but failed to produce a son, I reckon she would have suffered the same fate as Anne of Cleves. While I certainly think she was more ambitious than previously thought, she still lacked the political flair and skill to influence events of the time. I think her strongest attribute was that she was a survivor.
She was savvy, maybe smarter than Anne.
I believe if she had lived, he probably would have continued to love her and favor her, in the same way he did Catherine of Aragon in his earlier years or how he found companionship with Catherine Parr in his later years. I don't think he would be faithful, Henry cheated on all his wives constantly regardless if he loved them or not. But if Jane had lived, she wouldn't have only given him the son he always wanted, securing his line, but also would have probably given him many more children. As long as she outlived him, giving him a spare as well, and continuing to behave as the docile wife he wanted, she would remain his beloved queen (much like Elizabeth of York and Henry VII).
For history's sake it's probably best how history played out; otherwise we never would have gotten the first Queen of England with Mary I, and later the most beloved and famed monarch in Queen Elizabeth, because both of them would probably remain disinherited. Except maybe for Mary, who Jane cared very much for and might have eventually managed to convince Henry to legitimize her after making her a bastard. Although if he had other heirs, he probably wouldn't have.
"I think she had a will of iron and a spine of steel." Wow. The best, most plausible take I've ever heard on someone who always seemed simply boring. Thanks!
You always add so many layers to the story. I always get a better understanding of history. Thank You.
"she had a will of iron, a spine of steel"
Me: a h e a r t o f s t o n e?
😂 I'm glad I wasn't the only one!
thank god im not the only one
If she had a heart of stone, why would she go to the effort of reconciling Henry with his daughter?
It's the title of the Jane Seymour solo from the musical Six. It means she loves Henry and is set in that love no matter what.
if she liked Catherine of Aragon she'd hate Anne so as Catherine was dead scheaming to take what she took from her mistress and help her mistresses daughter Mary and have the hatred by those Anne die was not lack of empathy or heart of stone but solid iron hatred and heart in hateful fire
Happy to see you back. Really enjoyed this. I’m in complete agreement with your assessment of Jane.
I’m looking forward to seeing more in the future x
Thank you! Your assessment of Jane Seymour is far more believable than the mousy little pawn theory. She was probably intelligent and shrewd enough to know that she had very little power as a female, and what power she did have, she knew where it lay. Yes, my grammar here is probably awful, lol. She doesn't sound manipulated to me, she sounds complicit, and she knew how to play her role, too. Not buying the mouse routine. I actually kind of like her better this way. Thanks for another great history lesson.
Great afternoon episode with a cuppa! Thank you as ever for a thought provoking time. Hat's off to Jane! Enjoy
"any way you slice it, he was a widower."
I see what you did there.
I just love your videos so much, I'm glad you're doing them - thanks.
The fact that Jane attempted to work with subtle finesse to help Mary tells me she had a fine grasp of the personal and political climate associated with her difficult, unpredictable husband. To be the third choice for Queen shows her courage to maneuver Henry to a proposal of marriage and not that of just a mistress, shows very much Jane's grasp of how best to survive in Henry's favor, and ability to thrive in her relationship with him. There was nothing lacking in Jane's thinking or personal strength. By cleverly seeming biddable she safely made her way in a court where many before her perished.
I don't think she lived as his wife long enough for us to know her!!!
That was so interesting Dr. Kat!!
I never thought of Jane the way you describe but it makes sense that she would be more clever than we could know, and her early demise keeps us from having more facts about her story.
Was she sweet and docile, or more knowing and worldly? I would guess the latter. Thank you for making us think about her life with Henry❣️
I've long thought she was a woman who lived by the idea of courtesy being a lady's armor. She had thoughts and opinions but she was very careful with how she expressed them and when.
so happy to see you again!
Happy new year! This was a treat to listen too especially with everything going on.
Your insight, observations and well thought out opinions always make me see things that I hadn't thought about before. I am, as many people are, quite fascinated with Tudor history. It does seem that Jane, after you pointed it out, has often been the one who is overlooked and least mentioned. Maybe because there was never any "scandal" attached to her name. She was a short lived Queen, who produced the long awaited heir, and Henry had no complaints. Well as you so rightly pointed out, that could likely be because she wasn't around long enough to annoy him. It does seem quite clear that she must have been witness to the fall of Henry's two previous Queens. But I believe that even so, she probably had no choice but to fall into the roll of "next" Queen. As I've mentioned before, it is my belief that if Henry wanted to "court" a woman, that woman would really have no choice but to agree. How could anyone tell him "no"? Yes, she could insist that he treat her honorably, and she could hold out her affections until he offered marriage, which would only inflame his desire all the more, but it was her only course of action. She couldn't tell him she wasn't interested, not easy to offend a King. But she couldn't give in to any amorous demands because she would need to keep her virtue. It was a very delicate and somewhat dangerous game that women had to play back then, just to stay alive. Not offend, but at the same time not concede her honor (or virginity). It was their only card to play. Jane played that card brilliantly.
Both parties had to fully & freely consent to a marriage, or it wasn't valid. Women weren't forced into marriage, they had to agree, but it's hard for us to understand what a 16thc woman would want or expect from marriage. They might be delighted to marry a much older man they barely know because he's rich & titled, but some did marry for love. It was easier for peasants; it's when there's lots of land & titles etc, & you believe you're naturally superior to commoners, that your definition of a "good husband" becomes much stricter- there just aren't as many nobles & gentry.
I became fascinated by the six wives of Henry VIII when I was in my very early teen years. I love your videos about them. Keep up the good work!
Edit: There is a young adult series of books about the six wives of Henry VII...each queen had a book. Does anyone remember that?
I find this all very interesting. I have found that Jane's sister Elizabeth and Gregory Cromwell are my 12th Great Grandparents. I love that I can hear about what my ancestors did and how they lived. Love the videos!
Please do a video on Katherine of Aragon 🙏🏼 please!! 🙏🏼
I definitely will 🌟
@@ReadingthePast Love your channel!
“She had a will of iron and a spine of steel” literal chills. This video was so helpful thank youuuu🫶🏽
2nd late morning coffee and reading the past video. Thats the way to start off the weekend. So greatful 💖
Thank you for your well considered commentary and giving us the opportunity to consider Jane through a different lens, as always you present a fascinating reading of the past.
Fascinating video! Jane Seymour definitely carefully observed and learned what Anne did to turn Henry's head, and probably noticed how Henry had changed his behavior around Anne after they got married. If he wanted a fiery, flirty mistress, he wanted a calm, obedient wife. And Jane saw that if she played the calm obedient wife, that would become true. She had to understand exactly what was happening if she was going to step into Anne Boleyn's enormous shoes not 10 days after her execution. That did require nerves of steel. But after giving Henry his longed for son, would he have treated her so badly, and could she have behaved so badly, to have wound up like Anne?
I have heard that Henry did not treat Jane well or kindly after they got married, and indeed she took a long time to conceive. Is there any truth to this, that he treated her badly?
I think Jane had balls!!! To see the man she’s “reeling in” dispose of his 2 previous wives so callously & STILL become betrothed to that same man the day AFTER Anne’s execution. Yeah that takes guts. Catherine of Aragon’s dismissal after DECADES of loyalty to Henry, idk if I’d be so quick get married, BUT, the real danger is saying “no”!!! Too bad she didn’t have twins!!! Boys too!!!! Thank you for this channel. I enjoy your narration & thank you for fixing the audio!!!
First? What a welcome respite from what's happening in the US right now.
But it won't be a respite if you bring it up here, will it?
The events of our time are a cakewalk compared to the 1500s tho.
@@Patrick3183 You are not wrong.
How refreshing to hear such an insightful and perceptive view of the real Jane Seymour, Dr. Kat. Consider Jane's family. Noble lords very much like Anne Boleyn's family just with the different objective to put their own girl in the king's bed. And even further...if Anne could become Queen of England no matter her quick demise then could not Jane Seymour? Oh yes, the Seymour's learned well from the Boleyn's. Yes, Jane had nerves of steel and great acting ability to imitate Anne and get the King's attention yet keep Henry's love and not end up on a chopping block. I don't think Jane kept meek and sugary towards Henry solely out of fear. She had aspirations and knew that as a woman in King Henry's court post Anne Boleyn that she had a good shot at getting her way... if she could keep a clear head, extreme determination & play the King like a fiddle. History tends to portray Jane as a Mary Sue but I disagree. This does not mean that I do not have any sympathy for Jane's short life. In considering the rights of women in the Tudor period Jane was also a pawn in her male relatives' political aspirations. The
Seymours could be quiet savage. I'm thinking of Jane's brother, Thomas Seymour, uncle of King Edward VI, future husband of Katherine Parr and alleged sexual abuser of Elizabeth I. But I'll end my thoughts on Jane's brother here. That's a whopping discussion for another day.
What I really love most about this assessment is that it begins with the fact that these women were people far beyond the rhyme. The "ugly one" and "the tart" and "the nursemaid," etc. It's just not fair that as adults we continue to identify them by these boxes we put around them. Weirdly, I feel like I have more understanding of Jane than I do of Catherine Parr. And, of course, now I have to go back and listen to that one. But this was an awesome assessment, and I was riveted, as I am to all of your videos. I feel like she was very smart in how she approached her marriage. She knew what she was doing, and she knew how to survive him -- maybe not survive nature, unfortunately, but how to survive Henry.
Thank you for continuing to make these videos! I would really like to see your take on Jack the Ripper. I know he's not early modern, now, is he? But I'm quite interested in your take. I'm fairly convinced he was Leschmere, but I'm dying to see a series from you on him.
I'd also love to see a reaction video from you on pretty much any period show out there, but especially some of the non-fiction "history" documentaries. I think some of them get it wrong, so I'd love to see a history documentary reaction video. Basically, read the phonebook, Dr. Kat, I'll be there.
Love your channel!! I would also love to see a video from you on Marie de Guise, mother of Mary Queen of Scots, I visited Scotland and Edinburgh and Sterling castles and I’ve always wondered about her...
So lovely to see you/this today!!!
I think Claire Ridgeway mentioned that Jane seems to have gotten the better portrayal through appearing weak, while probably actually 'playing the game' with more foreknowledge of her possible outcome than Anne did. The more I learn about Jane, the more impressed I am that she managed to keep her hands as clean as she did. I'm increasingly curious about the what-ifs with her, because it seems like I keep turning around and learning about different facets of her character outside the saintly image!
Hi Dr Kat! Another amazing video.
I've always been intrigued by Henry's older sister Margaret (regent) Queen of Scots. I would adore a video about her or better yet one for each of his siblings.
Cheers!
I've never thought that Jane really had that much control in the situation. You don't reject a King who doesn't have enough blood in the system to run both heads at the same time.
Great video! 😍 I love how you added dimension to Jane's existence!
I'd love to hear your opinion about Catherine of Aragon. I never thought of Jane Seymour as weak but then the only thing that springs to my mind about her is that she produced a heir and thus appeased Henry. Who knows what might have become of her if she didn't die so soon?
Oooh Tudor Tea, my favorite!
I've never 'liked' Jane Seymour, she always seemed manipulative. Your succinct description of the situation only strengthens this feeling.
I do like to consider if she could have kept Henry's interest for long. He wouldn't have divorced her, as mother of his heir, but would he have side-lined her later?
How did u develop a feeling about Jane that is the opposite of the past 500 years of her reputation
@@Patrick3183 probably pro-Anne Boleyn novels 😂😂😂
My feelings exactly. I think he would have grown very tired of her very quickly ,but he would have been stuck with her, because she had given him what he wanted. So she would have had to put up and shut up with his philandering as Katherine before her had done, but with less injustice. A woman who did an 'Anne Boleyn' but stood by while 6 innocent people died to achieve her and her families ambition is no saint in my opinion. Dying did her reputation a lot more good than living would have done! That would have been interesting wouldn't it? To me she is the worst of Henry's wives. Duplicitous and cunning in a way that makes Anne look an amateur She was Far too principled to accept Henry's gifts, but not to sit in his lap for example I would have liked to have seen her live, so they could have both lived Unhappily Ever After! Lol
@@hogwashmcturnip8930 It also shows to me how naïve Henry could be. It perhaps didn't occur to him that Jane might just be playing the game when she made a big drama about not wanting to injure her honour "for a thousand deaths" on rejecting his gifts. He didn't see that he was being played by Seymour and her allies.
@@sayitlikeitis5026 Good point. That is a trait that shows quite often if you think about, none moreso than in the Katherine Howard debacle. Henry was a Control Freak, someone who liked to think he held others in his power. He doesn't seem to have noticed that this left him wide open to manipulation himself. Most of his courtiers seemed to have worked it out!
Thank you for this video! I think perhaps she's the one who gets the least attention of all the wives, Jane Seymour has always been the one that intrigued me the most. I really wish we knew more about her.
Your take on Jane Seymour has always been the way I saw her. Mainly because of the timing of her betrothal.
“All you ever hear and read about... was our ex and the way it ended” Very true! Thanks for your work on that 😊
Dr. Kat, I am an avid watcher of your videos and I must say this one may be one of my favorites. You do a great job of reminding us to question the narrative, perspective, and motive of our sources, even if they are primary sources. I really wonder whether Jane stayed at Wolf Hall or Hampton Court during those 2 years - I can't imagine what it would have been like to be at court during that time. I appreciate as well that you outlined where Jane was sequestered during her pregnancy. I urge anyone who can to visit Hampton Court Palace - it's much smaller than I imagined, and it makes me view the events surrounding the wives of Henry VIII differently. Thank you Dr. Kat!
Wonderful video. I knew all of the information but the video was nicely organized. Thank you for your hard work.
Janes always been my least favorite of his queens. While there’s tons of evidence showing that Henry and Catherine hadn’t been intimate for years and that he and Wolsey were already talking about his potential for a divorce before he met Anne, plus her early “hard to get” behavior seems far more like she really didn’t want him and was trying to be polite but not lead him on-so much so that she even left court for her family home. In my mind, Jane is far more the devious one, and I think she was jealous of Anne since they both apparently had served as ladies in waiting to Catherine of Aragon and Jane was ignored and looked over in favor of Anne for years so I think that Jane wasn’t so much very intelligent-though far more so than she’s given credit for-I just think she was extremely lucky in that she had a front row seat to the downfall of two previous queens that she could learn from. I think Jane was a far more devious and manipulative character than she’s made out to be because again she was lucky enough to be the one to give Henry a son. She also was in a relationship (even if it wasn’t sexual) with Henry while Anne was pregnant and so I’ve never understood how Anne could be portrayed as this evil seductress when it was apparent that Henry and Catherine had been on the rocks and hadn’t had any children together for years while Jane gets portrayed as this innocent angel when she was the one who went after the king while he had a pregnant wife. Plus, with Anne it was different as Catherine was divorced not beheaded and so it’s super sketchy and cold blooded to get married to a man literally days after he killed his wife. Plus, while Jane is known to have had affection for Mary, she completely ignored Elizabeth-showing that Jane’s “kindness” definitely had it limits. To me, her overly exaggerated humility was an obvious ploy that she saw worked for Anne and then she made it so that she became her complete opposite in every way. Plus, even some of her contemporaries expressed doubt that she could be that innocent, with Chapyus saying he doubted she’d made it to her age still a virgin in Henry’s court, as Jane wasn’t much younger than Anne and was seen as an old maid at the time, in fact Chapyus only changed his tune once he knew of her efforts to help Mary, but it just goes to show she wasn’t this angel that history has made her out to be. She was pious and obedient but also manipulative and harsh in how she went about erasing any of Anne’s legacy at court by banning the French dress favored by Anne and supposedly having very strict expectations for her ladies in waiting to the point of being rather harsh and cold towards anyone who didn’t meet her expectations.
Agree on every word
Anne got back exactly what she did to Henry's 1st wife. No onebknows what happened in Henry and Katherine's privacy. Katherine had 4 or more children both boys and girls, only Mary survived. Katherine was getting on in years so maybe they were having less sex. Or he was tired and having other relationships. As we've heard he was even having an affair with Mary, Anne's older sister. Annd knew that. They even manipulated religion and changed England's religion in order to get married. So it's hard to point who was worse than who! They were all pretty immoral at that time. He'd also married Katherine who'd been his brother's wife.
Dr. Kat does a nice job with her makeup 👍🏻
I've been reading Alison Weir's series Six Tudor Queens, so watching your videos is an added bonus. I've forwarded some of your videos to my sister who is now also hooked. :-)
Would be interesting to take a tour of the palaces or see the layouts. Maybe highlighting where certain events took place. Maybe where everyday life happened. I can’t ever wrap my head around “court” and how it worked.
Thanks for the great lessons!
Dear Dr.Kat..I checked to be sure I was still Subscribed and I am! I really enjoy your channel and look forward to your upcoming reading of Catherine of Aragon. Happy New Year
Perhaps she was clever enough to learn from what had happened around her. Her short life as queen has meant that she hasn’t received much attention from historians. Thank you for making this video, Dr. Kat.
I had a good dance to your intro song today! It never gets old!
Hi Dr Kat - I am so enjoying working my way through your RUclips videos - history being one of my favourate subjects. Have you made one about Katherine Swynford - sister in law to Chaucer?
Excited to see you Dr. Kat!
Thank you SO MUCH Dr. Kat, I thoroughly enjoy this channel! !!
I agree that her story of being virtuous and not bright does not match with the composition of many of the women at court. I do not believe a woman could survive in that environment long with being dull or naive. Thank you for you continued scholarship. I very much enjoy your videos and look forward to them each week!
Dr. Kat, I’ve learned so much about British history from you and it’s been so enjoyable!
Thanks to you I'm getting to know all these ladies.
So many say Jane was Anne's "fate" or "karma" (Yikes) but Jane's fate as well as her family's makes me think. Not only did giving birth to Henry's much desired heir kill her but.... her much adored son died before adulthood....but he also had Jane's beloved brothers executed and the way he wrote about that in his journal is sickening.... And then Elizabeth, much maligned and traumatized, TRIUMPHED over them all and became GLORIANA. In the long term, Anne Boleyn had the last laugh and "won".
Your RUclips channel is definitely in my top 5 for 2020!!
That was a very, very interesting and educational upload, at least for me. Can't wait for Katherine!
Fascinating and fantastic, as usual. Thank you Dr Kat.
Thankyou so much for a wonderful channel .
I was talking with a friend who also loves history and she was telling me of Aethelflad daughter of King Alfred . Have you done an episode on Aethelflad - lady of Mercia ? It would be good to get more on her as one of the somewhat forgotten women of our British history . Why is Boudicca so famous but she falls through the cracks ?
Thanks again for such a fantastic and informative channel.
Truly there is nothing better than a long lush weekend breakfast while dr Kat takes our minds out for a refeshing walk into reflection. precious gifts you give us, thank you.
I think ultimately that Jane was a very clever young woman. She knew first hand how things worked at Court from being a lady-in-waiting, had seen the two queens before her got rid of and was ambitious, but she had enough nouse about her to play the game and be able to play it well enough for Henry to think she was perfection personified. Sending the king's letter back unopened after getting a bit swoony over it will have been a total master stroke and helped to ramp up the image of her perfection.
Very interesting take, thanks for another great video
Thank you for this on Jane Seymour. I was suddenly struck by the age of Jane. One sees and knows the dates, but doesn't actually comprehend that Jane was in her mid to late 20's. Perhaps the famous portrait influences this. It has always made her look like younger to me. I am also glad of your description of her personality. It is one thing to be obedient to the men around you, but quite another to actually take an oath before God and the King to be a wife to that King. If she was as timid as history seems to depict her, then I do not see how she did not run away into the night after witnessing what had happened to the two previous wives. Your description of her makes it much more believable how she could remain his wife. I am not sure I could have manage that.
It might be ironic to write this but to me Jane Seymour was a "survivor" an observer. She was defeated by her body not by her ( real or invented) actions. She might have had empathy as well. It helps to understand others actions and she tried to better father/daughter's relationship. Loved this video. Thank you
Welcome back. Glad to hear your historic "news" again. Thx
DISDAINED I think you are spot on Kat, and now, the expert opinion I've long needed to bolster our shared opinion and the argument I've espoused for 40 years !! I've been poo pooed by scholars and laymen alike in saying Seymour was a "steel magnolia" who handled herself with consummate deftness in her relationships with the Court, family and Henry, an Olympian skillset during that era.
I imagine Jane was terrified most of the time she was being pursued by Henry and of course AFTER they wed. She had seen what happened to her predecessors. I feel she was brilliant and scared. Fighting to survive by playing the game that had been lost by two before her. Sadly, her brave, cool façade did not prevent her from dying after she gave Henry the sought after prize of a living son. But I feel she did everything in a very calculated way to try to survive. She could not escape so she played to survive.