Tommy Steele's TS V: Integrally Suppressed 9mm Carbine
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
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Thanks to a friend in South Africa, we have a chance today to take a look at one of the five prototypes of Tommy Steele's TS V semiauto carbine. This thing is completely ambidextrous (including swappable ejection ports), has an abundance of safety mechanisms, and an integral suppressor complete with massive barrel venting to (in theory) reduce muzzle velocity on standard 115gr 9mm ammunition below the speed of sound.
Steele had begun his military career with the British Royal Marines, before moving to Rhodesia and joining the Rhodesian Army. In 1980 he left the country and emigrated to South Africa, where he joined the SADF, working as an armorer. He began work on this design in the mid 1980s, but the TS V guns were not actually produced until 1996 and 1997 in South Africa. He was unable to find a financial supporter for the design, and thus it never went into series production. All five existing prototypes vary in their details, and this the the first of them.
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Once again, South African arms development creates the perfect sci-fi movie prop
It does look like something that would pop up in a south african sci fi movie.
CliffRacer kinda reminds me of the spec ops smg from Halo 3 ODST?
District 9 with its white painted bullpups 😂
great gun for space marines in some mid 80's-90's horror sci-fi. 1st thing I thought when I saw it
arachnixon Funnily enough, the main workings of the gun remind *me* of the bolt pistol from Warhammer 40,000!
With a name like Tommy Steele he was already setting the bar too high
iLLeag7e sounds like a C-list pornstars name😂
@@chrisalbrecht2894 Or Britain's first ever rock and roll star. Because that's literally the name of Britain's first ever rock and roll star.
Almost as good as the Lamborghini test driver Max Venturi.
He did steal something in the end 🤣
He was just trying to make arf a sixpence.
This is probably one of my favorite channels. No clickbait, no misleading thumbnails, no stupid showoffs, no bullshit. This man just calmly goes to buisiness. Extremely clear and professional. Kudos to you Ian
i dont really think any of these type of comments ever get read by the content creator lol pretty cringe either way
Cept for the stupid bullshit, I like those guns, it's like they were drawn by 5 th graders that were told to draw a gun that would kill everything
Entertaining to see either way
@@sceriteri4157 He does read the comments sometimes though, plus this isn't cringe it's rather wholesome :)
@@sceriteri4157 ruclips.net/video/tR1nHnEL3PM/видео.html
South African armourers are like Dwarves,creating weird and wonderful weapons of war
@@TheFissionchips more like commie goblins
@@TheFissionchips lol, are you sure you're thinking of South Africa? Don't believe everything the media tells you is all I can say
@@aker1993
Goblin Slayer: Did someone say goblin?
I wonder what is their equivalent of the Mjolnir
@Bad Cattitude Yeah let's tone down that racism there buddy.
"There are some interesting things about this gun"
#1: it balances on it's magazine.
I know right, I was looking at it like "wow that's neat"
ARs do that too, kinda
@@thegoldencaulk2742 not effectively. My experience with the M16 has mixed results on using the mag as a bipod... it pivots too easily.
My 7.5" AR Pistol does that wonderfully.
@@Raymo2u it might just be the steel mags we use in the army. The corner of it isn't great for keeping a stable aim after each shot.
Me : why does this thing looks so weird ?
*ian mentions its from South Africa*
Me : ooooh thats why
Josue Mendez it’s somehow so ugly it’s beautiful...
Fricken space guns man
It's a pre production model.
South Africa: the Florida of weapons development
I think at this point, somebody has to say "fookin prawns". I'm not entirely sure what it refers to, but I understand it's traditional.
When you start the story with 'he fled to Rhodesia under unknown circumstances', you know it's going to be a good one. Hehehe...
Last time I cheked we call it Zimbabwe... ;^)
@@rafadylewski7190 more like poorabwe
@@rafadylewski7190 Good one man.
@@rafadylewski7190 "Do we/?" ;^)
@John Sutton
Yup, that extreme hyperinflation, mass starvation, and mass poverty sure are better because "muh raycism"
"Please shoot it. Please shoot it. He shoots it!"
calm down vault-boy
@@robrocksea Robert losey more like Robert loser
Met Tommy Steel at a shopping centre today in Cape Town. He is a true living legend!
Like what
He is in CT now?
@@francoiswilliams yep. Such a funny guy. His life stories are brilliant.
Has he watched this video?
@@faizahmohdfauzi1584 He was the one who told me to RUclips him so I presume so!
Many times when i see an 80s or 90s South African gun all i can think about it's District 9 and Chapie.
And Gunnar, apparently
Chappie was awesome
did he mean District 6 ?
@Derrick Flyr Yeah, they're part of a band called Die Antwoord. Lady Gaga almost had them open for her but they said no because she was a stuck up prick
Derrick Flyr isnot his woman is best friend. shes dj muggs girl. ninja had to correct eminem on that lol
Not bad at all for a 40 year old prototype and even with the mag blip, seemingly more reliable than a number guns on sale today.
~20 year old prototype, ~30 year old basic design.
He stole a bag of G3 push pins, this guy was clearly a nut case. After it malfunctioned the first time I didn't even think it was firing after that. Pretty cool to be honest.
Makes sense in my head, it's one of those parts small enough to grab a decent volume and useful to already have no matter what. Or he just had some strange fetish for them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
“You can’t shoot me for stealing your push pins if your rifles are falling apart because I stole their push pins”
@@TheShadowcompany1The same way that you can steal an entire unit’s MREs, replace them with a bunch of Vomelettes and not worry about retaliation because they are too busy eating it on breakfast, lunch and dinner.
You know it's from South Africa when it looks like something the Terminator would list among things like an Uzi 9 MILLEMEDDA and a Phased Plasma-rifle in the 40 watt range
I've always found that funny, because that description refers to an unbelievably pathetic "weapon". If we assume the power in each shot is 40 W, and the shot delivers that power to the target in 1/10th of a second, that is just 4 Joules of energy. To put that in perspective, to deliver that amount of energy, a typical 5.56mm bullet would have to travel at just 12 m/s, or 43 km/h. So basically, the Terminator Plasma Rifle delivers about as much energy to a target as you would get by just throwing a normal bullet at somebody.
@@anzaca1 15 milliwatts on a laser can burn skin apparently
@@anzaca1 Personally I always assumed that the watt-range was a weird plasma rifle convention that only referred to the magnetic containment/shaping output range. Kind of a weird convention even for fictional weapons. Maybe because the plasma source was originally generated separately from something much larger and more powerful?
Man, I love South African guns!
If you ignore the stock and barrel section the gun looks alot like a MAC-11 though.
_And it's cyberpunk as hell_
Just give it an EOTech sight, a laser sight on the handguard and maybe slap and electronic ammo counter on the side and voilà!
Yeah same thoughts exactly. Almost certain there was some "Inspiration" from the MAC.
Next Cyberpunk 2077 gun.
TheOtakuComrade let EOTech sights die pls
YES. It looks very futuristic, but like what people in the past imagined the future being like. Exactly cyberpunk and I love it
88th like 👌🏻
that gun sounds so quiet on the video that when Ian first shot it i thought it was misfiring
yeah and he still isnt happy and says its too loud... lol
It looks like it will only require a brush to clean the silencer
I'm assuming that it's just the camera messing with the sound
Jebi Se it's the camera auto adjusting the loud noise. It's always going to sound louder in person than on camera.
Gun sounds and microphones get along in a really weird way. Or is it the compressor?
South Africa always makin cool lookin guns.
No arguments here!
Cool-looking, but rarely good.
@@anzaca1 You're just mad about the world cup
@@anzaca1 rarely good??? watse kak praat jy?
That bolt was a thing of beauty. Small, clean, self contained, no obvious springs and nothing to fly off and get lost.
Well, apart from that bit broken off. Also, oh, you need this left handed, flip the assembly, reinsert and close, now functional. Really smart design. Man deserves credit there, shame the rest of it, suppressor doesn't seem to live up to that.
That is a reaaaAAAAaaally cyberpunk looking gun.
That or - depending on the angle - something from Star Wars.
@@jochenwenzel8878 I see what you mean but I don't know. The two rails, really chunky barrel, being all black, the folding skeleton stock and being a suppressed SMG screams Cyberpunk to me.
A Shadowrunner has deffenetly geeked a mage or two for a Mr Johnson with that gun.
It looks like one
This is a real life gun. Cyberpunk might look like this, not the other way around lol
@@FairlyUnknown The snek hek are you on about?
Funny enough it was a well thought out design for the day. Many safety features, looks very robust for combat, simplistic but soundly made. Added optic and accessory mounts which was way forward thinking for the day. I'd say this guy was well ahead of his time.
Don't forget the interchangeable magazines.
I never knew Tommy Steele was so multi-talented: singer, actor, author of children's stories, and now I discover a gun designer.
A true Renaissance man.
Excellent trolling. You had me hitting the google machine hard. LinkedIn says he was also a graphic designer, asset manager and a pastor at New Life Baptist church
I know it's another piece of expensive equipment to remember to take with you and get on camera, but I always feel like we need to see a decibel meter whenever someone uses suppressed weapons on video.
Most guy's, when they get out of their country's military, usually will try to make off with their ruck-sack, their wooby cover and a case or two of MRE's...
Tommy Steele: "*[pant, pant] G3 push-piiiiiiiiins!!!*
He technically stole less than most.
There was a guy in the 70s in the Israeli army that took his tank home, and had it in his shed until 2006s amnesty return, and drove it to an army return point. And walked away no questions asked while everyone's jaw hit the floor
@@callsignshulei229 “How did y-“
“Ah, ah, ah! ☝️ No questions asked!”
“I… thank you sir”
Rhodesia was a mess. A very big mess. But this guy had a vision with those pins!
@@Abdega "No questions asked!"
The senior junior-enlisteds: *salute*
You should try and get your hands on a AS VAL. that would be a really cool video.
Need to go to Russia for that, none of those are outside the country. Now it's actually easier, the civilian version with fake supressor is sold for about a year already.
- Now we have enough trophy val-s, and vss-s from dead russians in Ukraine. Hope that you'll cooperate with our gun lovers somewhere. You're welcome. (sad, but this is not my personal suggestion)
@@PredatoryQQmber LMAO.
@@hztn yeah, tell me about "angry Russians" after UAF tried to kill me and my family.
@@teodoreberbach3651 chocolate factory man needs more money.
11:43 "That's still actually kind of snappy and loud." At least via video, it's the quietest firearm I've ever heard. I didn't think it had fired at first and it sounds quieter than Ian's voice.
The camera must have an auto-gain feature to prevent clipping at high SPL.
"Tommy Steele is one of the more +colorful+ characters in South African and Rhodesian gun design"
*Collar pull*
"one of only 5 made" and suddenly I felt better. Thought I was a disgrace being a saffa and never having heard of this before. Thanks Ian, great video of significant interest to myself.
Really cool - it's a bit unfortunate that you can't quite understand how loud it actually is since the camera doesn't pick it up. It would be kinda cool to get a noise measuring instrument to be able to compare this to say a .22 LR - because if you say borderline safe to fire without ear protection i'm thinking of the sound of a .22 LR bolt action.
He just needs Garand Thumb's microphone equipment. Every GT video sounds like you're right there with him.
This gun, when viewed from certain angles, almost shares the same look as the Kriss V. Loved it, especially how it perfectly balances on its magazine.
A decibel meter would be nice addition for videos on suppressed weapons. Thank you for all your hard work.
THIS 1000 TIMES!
Yea that'd be smart
I must say that's the most simple and ingenius reversible ejection system I've seen
I had the privilege of meeting Tommy over a cup of coffee this morning. Truly a lovely man with an interesting life story and a wonderful sense of humour.
Looks like an 80's sci-fi gun.
@Léo Mutombo I'm sorry i don't speak french.
Why does everything South African looks like it came straight out of Halo or Alien? I love it.
I would love to see this gun get more popular in media tbh. It looks awesome IMO, and has some sick functionality. With that level of semi-simplicity and ambidextrous ability, it could be fixed up into the standard firearm of a fictional military or police force easily.
This is probably one of my favourite weapons youve showcased. Something about its craft made quality but also that its very feature complete and also looks very handy. I guess i could say that ive seen mass produced firearms that inspire less interest and confidence
Thank you
I haven't ever seen such a strange barrel and shroud combination in a gun. I think the ideas behind it are worth revisiting someday.
I know Tommy Steele personally. There was nothing vague or mysterious about his move to Rhodesia - just for the record.
I think cecil rhodes himself established some really good reasons for everyone to be cunning of brits moving to rhodesia
Welcome to Forgotten Weapons, where you can see 1 of 5 ever built in the world firearms at the range. So cool that these are able to be fired and that you capture video for them!
Flippable bolt for ambi: freaking genius in its simplicity....
The microphone must have auto-clipped the audio from the shots, because from the viewer’s perspective that thing was no louder than a mouse’s sneeze. Very cool piece of firearm history. Thanks for sharing.
Love this channel, very well explained n motivational to build my own
Thank you , Ian .
South Africans make amazing weapons that are super space age. That looks like an FMG-9 from 2200.
Love this thing, it really has that whole c1980s retro-futuristic look to it.
South Africans really do design the best-looking weapons, absolutely
I'd prefer the term "unique". They're pretty good looking but slme are so ugly it makes them beauties.
He was British.
@morton christie Personally speaking pal, I always say, give credit where its due, regardless. But hey, that`s just me.
@morton christie Was I wrong?
Why not buddy?
I met Mr Steele the other day at the shooting range i work at. unbelievable guy with some unbelievable stories. Never knew about this until after our conversation.
And the disciple said unto Gun Jesus, "Lord, why dost thou bring a thing of evil before us?" Gun Jesus smiled upon him, "Why for dost thou say that this is of evil my son?" The disciple suspected that doth be an arse yet he saith unto Gun Jesus, "For it be black with the foldy shoulder stocky thingness and it doth have integral quietitude and a full-semi-auto button yet not a full hoooowaaaaahhhhh button." And Gun Jesus did look upon him sternly which made for a small squirt of wee-wee to make it's home within his undies and saith, "This doth not be a thing of evil for those that say that guns being of black are evil incarnate , I say that they doth talk out of their rear ends for they know not what they do and I wilt not asketh my father to forgive them." Chastened, the disciple saith unto Gun Jesus, "Was this gun of Tommy Steele designed by the 1960's British singer?""What kind of disciple be you?" snappeth Gun Jesus. "A stupideth one?" askethed the disciple and the wrath of the Lord was averted for he did decide to take the semi-auto black fun machine, which didst look as if it be designed by a 1970's Dr Who prop-man, to the range and chucketh some rounds downrange whilsteth imagining that the steel be the disciples face. And Gun Jesus didst this and all was quiet within his soul. Amen.
amen
Amen
Blastphemer!!!! You have forgotten the most holy of firearms the M1-GARAND.
Seth Houston away with schismatic heretic!
Yes!
Love this channel I hope more people come to appreciate the historic look you're able to give us into the unique history of firearms engineering.
When you said "He stole only one thing" I wondered whether it's customary to steal from the military when finishing service.
We could hand in a list of items that we "lost,, during service so you don't have to give it back. This is pretty much expected and you won't get into any problems for that as long as you don't keep too many or too valuable items. Friend of mine when he was honourably discharged kept a hat, rucksack, his boots, an army knife, several pieces of clothes and other utilities and nobody ever mentioned it.
You said it was actually "snappy and loud". I've heard weapons make more noise being dry-fired. If it weren't for the blur of the empty brass being ejected one could easily think that you were dry-firing this weapon.
The sound really don't translate accurately onto camera.
The G3 pins part cracked me up real good:D
I have met Tommy, good guy. I got to see the latest TS and it is a awesome rifle. you should contact him and ask to do a show on the new TS.
This would be perfect for Fallout!
Literally the perfect Fallout gun.
Suppressed 9mm SMG. Designed for DIA Tac-Teams for use in covert domestic operations.
Tommy Steele? The drummer from Sex Swing?
I missed you and your jokes in the comments sir.
I thought of Tommy Steele who starred with Cliff Richard in 'Summer Holiday' ...
Damn, glad I'm not the only FH/FW crossover fan.
Oww, don't worry Funhaus fans are everywhere.
TheGoldenCaulk glad to see us funhaus fans here
Tommy Steele is still around and runs Deep South Gunsmith Services in Fish Hoek in Cape Town.
"Still kind of snappy and loud" - I'll take your word for it. The gun sounds incredibly quiet on video.
This gun deserves a Doug Score with all its quirks and features.
You made me snort my coffee with that comment!
Great video as always, Ian.
But, I would strongly suggest that you invest in better sound gear, because this video really highlights an issue with sound, more so than the others. I honestly couldn't tell if the gun was firing or not lol
What a neat little gun.
Another masterpiece of South African wakandan based tech
That thing is actually really sweet. I’m pretty impressed with it, especially since that was #1
Ah honestly I like more Tommy Steele's work when he was playing drums for the band Sex Swing....
what kind of wasteman would steal only push pins. Like I'm just picturing Tommy Steele walking off his base for the last time, pockets completely full, getting searched and the guard pulls out his pockets and hundred of pushpins tumble out
Imagine if the NFA wasn't there and the private sector could make amazing suppressed and slick looking guns.
this is a very handsome good looking carbine .. really is ... and contrary to what you said it seem dead silent to me and it has almost zero recoil ... perfect carbine, wish i had one of those, thanks for sharing this beauty
Can we all agree that south Africa makes some of the coolest guns out there?
I actually really like how this gun looks, it's interesting as well.
You show good taste
awesome video, as always! When it comes to live firing though, I really suggest you use an external microphone + mixer. I really want to get a feeling for how loud silenced guns actually are. :)
It looks like a Mac-10 with a HK P7 grip, a 9mm AR Glock mag reciever, a Galil Stock, an G3 round hand guard and a Mp5 suppressor.
Weird, but an interesting mix of parts
BT 360 P7 style safety but I think the grip looks more like the grip off a Tokarev to me.
I remember using these in my days fighting the Covenant on Harvest, Earth, Reach...
man that looks super heavy duty,
This smg looks like it came from an 80s cyberpunk movie or something. The same could be said about other firearms from South Africa as well.
This gun would fit well in Star Wars, like The Mandalorian or something.
It's really only after watching Forgotten Weapons for so long that I've started to unconsciously take note of when a firearm is ambidextrous
Probably the quietest gun I’ve ever heard
That's one of the most '80s-looking gun ever. It's now one of my favorite guns.
That thing looks like a prop gun bolted together from a bunch of gun lookin stuff for a budget 80's action movie.
I'm still impressed with how quite the gun is and it has like no recoil.
Hey there
Bruh. 😁🤣
The man the myth the legend
I spilled beer out my nose when I saw your name.
@Andy Williams that's a strange place to keep it, why wouldn't you use a bottle or glass to store it instead? Seems a bit silly
You could get round the suppressor/handgrip heat issue by fitting two L-section rails to the bottom corners of the receiver, with a pistol grip at their front end. That way a) there's no direct mechanical connection from the suppressor to the grip to conduct heat, and b) the surface area of the grip facing the suppressor, and therefore absorbing radiant heat, is minimised. if you can't make the rails rigid enough, then triangulate them to the bottom of the magazine well.
Son of a welrod! I thougght it was misfiring.
this man is really running the 12 bullet mag on the fennec...
Absolutely love this, such a cool design, reminds me of a weapon from aliens, super interesting quirks and features, definitely a functional weapon I could see myself running drills etc with, very cool
Also you got my mind blown with the barrel, never know you could drill holes on a barrel and still make it work... I guess the round seals the chamber and prevent the gas leak before the projectile.. Very educational
Just to let you know that Tommy Steele was not his real name.
It was his nom de guerre. Tommy Steele was a 1950's British- pre Beatle rock and Roller.
Tommy Steele is my real name .
The pop star you refer to used my name as is stage name . His real name was Tommy Hicks.
I love how it’s basically an automatic de lisle(not sure if I spelled that right) carbine in 9mm
looks like borderlands gun :3
Borderlands is a game where you could stick a knife on a automatic pistol with a drum mag
Blue Quality Vladof Resolute Fighter with Vladof grip and scope. vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/borderlands/images/e/e8/VladofRare.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121204110806&format=original something like that, but you need Resolute prefix for stock :}
5tark I was thinking the same thing, maybe it was the clip
Talking about the UZI's predilection for firing when dropped, on a visit to Israel I was in an outside nightclub when a girl dropped hers and it span around on the dance floor. Man I tell you that I have never seen a room full of people suddenly 'hop dance' so high or enthusiastically in my life as it span around 360 degrees ! LOL! Luckily it didn't go off!
Sound pretty quiet to us. Your voice seems louder.
Most cameras are very poor at capturing loud sounds.
I'm thinking the audio he's hearing louder is the clang of the open bolt snapping shut. It's the same with the M16, where the sound of the bolt snapping shut rings left handed shooters' ears.
This weapon looks so cool
"...ended up fleeing to Rhodesia for reasons that are vague, but I'm sure colourful."
I'm sure they had a lot to do with colour, if I'm honest. :/
learning what you said about the uzi gives me an all new respect for that silly scene in true lies. wow, i never knew..thanks gun jesus!
Designer suppressed the gunshot but forgot to suppress the gun, it sounds very rattly inside.
moosemaimer Well lad. Ya shouldn't forget it was still a prototype.
Ian, I am really pissed off!
The one day I didn't go to Camp Bordon with the gang, and you showed up.
Gun Jesus meets his apostle's. And I was not there.
I gather Richard showed you some of his goodies (and does that man have goodies)
and you have filmed them for upcoming episodes, so everybody can get envious
along with the rest of us.
And having met Richard, you will agree with all us, that he is one of the nicest guys
you will ever meet on a rifle range.
So the lads gave you a true Canadian experience by taking you to Tim Hortons for coffee, where you made a terrific impression everybody.
And these guys,as you found out, do not impress easily.
Very sorry I missed you this time, but rest assure, if I hear of a second coming of Gun Jesus at Camp Borden;
this errant apostle will be there.
Damn south African made a lot of weird fire arms
Can you imagine the power of a south african armorer escaping into the wild and developing their crazy weapons with first world materials? They so often seem limited only by materials, and are otherwise genius.
As a South African and reading the comments, it seems most forget the military backgrounds of white South Africans. We have fought many battles and wars.
Battle of blood river.
1st Boer War.
2nd Boer War again against Britian, Canada, New Zealand, Australia and India who have send over 550 000 troops to fight 35 000 Boer. The first-ever concentration camps where implemented by the British agains Boer women and children.
WW1.
WW2.
Korean War mostly air force.
23 years border war, 26 August 1966 - 21 March 1990 when South Africa stood alone against communism with little or no help from the western nations. On the SWA/Angola border South African Army (SADF) faced off in hundreds of battles and thousands of skirmishes against the Mighty Soviet union, China, Cuba, eastern Germany, Angola, Zambia, Swapo, MPLA and ANC.
Maybe this is why most white South Africans are gun and military fanatics.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War
www.delvillewood.com/premiereguerre2.htm
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_South_Africa_during_World_War_II
samvousa.org/special-interest/korean-war
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Border_War
@@pierreabrie9445 sTOod aLOnE agIAnST COmMuniSM lmao
don't forget the brutal racist apartheid state you propped up and perpetuated... but oh Muh poor boers 😂😂😂
@@bezaabiy5945 Did anyone say that? Literally nothing in OP's post had anything to do with feeling sorry for anyone or Apartheid at all? Why did you feel it necessary to inject some form of political statement into the post?
Also it would be incorrect to blame the Boers for starting Apartheid in the first place. The British did after they won the second Boer war. It's neither here nor there but interesting to know none the less.
@@TheStrangerHAZ i feel no pity at all they still benefited from it...they weren't treating the natives any better before hand... and if you wanna talk about the reasons SA was so martial the #1 reason is to suppress black populist movements I.E. Namibia and Zimbabwe.
@@bezaabiy5945 Ag shame, go cry in your room.
The Uzi's Grip Safety prevents the bolt from opening ~and~ closing if it is not depressed; dropping a cocked or un-cocked Open Bolt UZI should not result in a discharge because the sear is locked in place regardless of the bolt's position: if cocked, the grip safety prevents the sear from falling, or at rest - bolt closed, sear the sear is likewise locked in the bolt stop cutouts. The Racheting top cover was a safety mechanism which (sometimes) prevented a negligent discharge if the bolt wasn't drawn to the fully cocked position. The Full Size Uzi didn't have too many problems with short stroking, the later Mini-Uzi (which had a shorter bolt throw and a stiffer recoil spring) ~did~ have issues with some operators short-stroking the bolt.
That's the R-101's grandpa lol
Historically speaking suppressed weapons were for not only stealth but assassination too. Having said that the TS V fits that niche quite nice. Can be used then broken down & hidden upon "E & E".