I did QA for the Windows port. The reason it's pretty much identical to the PS version is because the port is emulating a big portion of the PS's cpu. I promised unreleased codes if you ever did a BOTP of this one when you did the original Toshinden BOTP, so here they are. Big head mode: Go to the options screen and type in without quotes "kidzuya". For Bigger head mode: "maxzuya" and if you want to see our ugly mugs: "showme". There's other easter eggs hidden in some stages which can be seen using a debug camera viewer that can be activated during pause (I don't remember exactly how but it involved using the L and R buttons). We also had a code that would trigger an alternative story, but it had to be cut in fears of Takara getting upset if we included it.
@@CorporalDanLives I wish I could tell you what the story was about. I didn't get the opportunity to see it before it got cut. Only the code to switch to use it was implemented and in fact, still works, it just doesn't do anything though. It was an original story created by another one of the QAs. He's written a few comic books and other games under his belt as well as assist in other projects. I'll ask if he still has it around and if it would be ok to share. When production caught wind of it, it was decided that it went beyond just being an easter egg and could get us in trouble. We really loved working on this port. And for me personally, it was a lot of fun.
@@RetroCore Not sure if you figure it out, but here's how to activate the free camera, turns out it's the same as in the PS version: Pause the game, go to options, Change L1, R1, L2 and R2 to "Not used" then go to Camera Type and change it to "Control". Go back to R1 and change it to "Camera Control" it should change the rest of the L and R buttons automatically. Exit the options. You should be able to rotate the camera around with the L and R buttons . Use "select" to change from camera rotation to camera movement/zoom mode.
It is interesting to see how much effort was put into porting to the saturn! Improved controls and I'm almost sure the backgrounds are being rendered by vdp2 (so you lose 3d backgrounds to get the higher resolution and consistent performance). I played both ps1 and saturn versions back in the day and only realized the differences properly watching the video! So battle of the ports is great even when I know the game!! Thanks!!
for me the Saturn is still the most interesting console that sparks my interest with its potential often underutilized. hope games continue to be made for it
I find that there is no better example of the differences between the Playstation and the Saturn in handling 3D than these two versions of Toshinden. On the one hand a clean 3D, in high resolution but which lacks of depth and on the other hand a less stable 3D with a lot of polygones gleetches but sophisticated graphic effects and lighting effects . Toshinden on Playstation or Saturn is kind of my "guilty pleasure" I know it's not a technical or very deep gameplay, but I like the kitschness of the game and the characters.
Back then, Soul Edge on PS1 was THE king. Still my favorite game in the franchise. Yes, I did played Soul Calibur III, IV & VI. It looked awesome, played great, had a kick ass soundtrack & had a jiggle physics (Taki) before Dead or Alive became a thing👍💪
I'm with you. URA is the best version of T2. Had they not taken characters out, it would have been the definitive version of Toshinden 2. With the Windows version, it might be worth using RivaTuner to throttle the frame rate. Though older PC arcade ports remind us all why console was the platform for the genre before the days of USB and Xinput. Fun fact - the arcade version uses "Sofia TAKE 2" as Rungo's theme. Odd that his actual theme didn't make it to that version. Maybe it didn't sound good on the high-pitched QSound platform?
It'd be awesome if Fightcade also had lobbies for Saturn games and one of them being from this game Yea, Toshinden URA with GGPO Rollback, it would be cool
@@SomeOrangeCat at the time yes, but look at it now? Retro 2D games are extremely popular again. I guess they just made a lot of bad choices during the initial 3D boom.
Fair enough. They are a little flat. It would have been better if they had tried drawing things with parallax to give a 3D impression as found on the backgrounds in Sega's 3D Saturn fighters.
The Saturn version is actually my favorite of the releases for this. It is better than the rest by far. some people don't like the exclusive characters, but I had a blast.
The reason I stuck with the original PlayStation for the years is the Fact, that since 1998 until 2003 it kept getting new releases, in which many of them were really great games. Saturn had a great start imo, and shown that it can also deliver gaming experience on top level, this is one of the proofs. Sadly the lack of new media localised for the Europe (and I guess US too) pretty much killed it, I still dont get why many games for Saturn were available only in Japan, but their PS versions were in English.
Thanks for doing this. I own the Sega Saturn and PC versions of this and the first game (and D-Xhird for the Sega Saturn, more on that one later). Also played the PlayStation versions for comparison's sake with all of them. The other day was thinking about the series and remembered that you had done a BOTP of the first game but not for the second (wasn't sure, searched for it and didn't find it), hence my suggestion in the BOTP video of the first game. Didn't imagine you would do it so quickly! And yes, I was sure you would take the same conclusions with the Sega Saturn version, I'm of the same opinion. The thing with all those unfavorable critics may have been mainly because of the late release of the Sega Saturn version. By then, I believe the PlayStation was already on the verge of getting Battle Arena Toshinden 3, and I suspect they were seeing another iteration of Battle Arena Toshinden 2 as "dated", even though Nextech, Sega and Takara bothered to retool it enough to not be quite the same as Battle Arena Toshinden 2 but "something else". This is why they think they didn't went with a more direct approach towards the conversion, unlike what Nextech had done with the first game. But you have a point. When the Sega Saturn got a PlayStation game long after, it was criticised for being already a dated game and something they had already seen, but when it was the other way around, notably with Game Arts games like Grandia, then they wouldn't say the same. I'm glad you did some justice to this. It would have been interesting to see what a possible Sega Saturn version or equivalent of Battle Arena Toshinden 3 would have done, the closest we have to that hypothetical port was turned into a completely different game once again handled by Nextech for Takara: D-Xhird. In fact, Eiji is featured as a secret cameo character in that game.
So right with the Grandia point. The PlayStation version is inferior to the Saturn on so many point and came much later yet it was constantly praised while the Saturn original wasn't even acknowledge in multiform magazines. So sad. Dxird is technically an impressive Saturn game but I beleive it was rather lacking in the playability department.
We had a multiformat mag here in Australia called HYPER, and they did a massive Saturn import blowout. Grandia received a 96 out of 100 from them, if I remember correctly :) I always coveted Grandia, and eventually got the Japanese Saturn version. Unfortunately, I didn't last long with a guide... I ended up playing through the PS1 version, unfortunately. I need to give the fan English patch a spin, I think!!!
I suspect another reason the Saturn version didn’t get good reviews are the missing 3D backgrounds and transparencies. Ellis is missing her transparent skirt entirely for some reason, so I could easily see the games mags seeing that as confirmation that the Saturn “can’t do 3D well” and marked it down because if it.
Your line of thinking is a bit wrong... Grandia was well received by the WESTERN GAMER JOURNALISTS back then despite coming years after the original Sega Saturn version because there was something missing that is often un-felt especially by younger people who did not really have actual buying power nor were they digging up information in the gamer magazines back when the Sega Saturn launched in Japan all the way to the end or 1994 to 1998 which applies to the Western regions thanks to policies acted upon and enabled by the 90s Sega of America staff. Grandia was not a priority for the 90s Sega of America staff, they were never, NEVER gonna support it, as such the game was gonna remain Japan only until a small company purchased the license to do an English translation. THAT is why there are no real problems with the PS1 version of Grandia but it is the opposite with Toshinden because early in 1995 when the western PS hype was being built, Toshinden stood out as a great looking 3d graphics fighting game even though it played like rubbish. Also Toshinden was primarily programmed and developed for and using Sony PS1 hardware and the arcade hardware version... as opposed as NexTech being a fairly decent and increasingly advanced Sega Saturn port team and original games under Sega contract dev. I will say it was unfair that people in the gamer magazines immediately started whining about the lack of transparencies with the Sega Saturn version as well as lack of the 3d backgrounds but that anti-Sega sentiment came from Sega of America's 90s staff treatment towards the very same Sega owners by shoving 32X in our faces, prioritizing live action FMV games and making sure to NOT do any true marketing support for the Sega Saturn here in North America which affected the other regions. Sega Saturn failed because of 90s Sega of America staff... all their staff... not anyone in Japan or Europe but the SoA staff... they wanted to focus and they were the only ones excited to focus on the 32X... maybe its cause they invented it and they were gonna get major kickback bonus checks if it actually truly sold out to suckered Genesis owners which thankfully it never did because most of the 700k units shipped to retailers sat in stores unlike the lies that Sega of America fanboys are spreading.
The Saturn version looks fantastic, OK the backgrounds are not truly 3D (assume using the second SH-2), but I think the higher resolution is well worth it, and of course gameplay is always king! Great round up.
As much as I liked to play URA back in the day, have to be honest, I didn't like the backgrounds for the most part. Most stages were very flat looking images (Mondo, Ellis) or simply unimpressive (Ronron, Fo Fai). Only a few stages stood out because they looked good (Rungo, Replicant and Wolf).
Thank you for speaking out against those biased 90s gaming rags like Next Gen/Edge...and all those retro gaming RUclipsrs who keep repeating the same crap they read as kids w/o even playing the games on different systems. I wonder how many people who have gotten the Saturn if the reviewers hadn't hated on Sega since Day One...
Those RUclipsrs who make videos thinking they know it all bug know sweet FA annoy me. They just read some crap the blurt it off as personal opinion. Not cool. In fact, many weren't even born when the games they talk about were released.
Most of the 3D fighting games from this era suffered from the "floaty" feeling of the characters and moon-like jumps, which turned battles kind of clumsy. That wasn't the case with Tekken, whose excellent controls and physics took it to the top of its category. And Namco hasn't changed the basic feeling of the physics ever since. If you play the last Tekken released, it will feel very familiar to the very first one.
I remember this back when Virtua Fighter hit the arcades in my country (US). I was so used to 2D fighters that the floatiness of the characters annoyed me.
Side note: BAT for the Gameboy is a great game. Especially if you have a Super Gameboy and a friend. Not a port of BAT2 (or BAT1 for that matter) but a 2D fighter with many of the same characters.
Loved Toshinden 2, spent many hours playing that game on PSOne and PC. That soundtrack still holds up. Amazingly Rungo's theme holds up as one of my favorites from the game. Sofia having two themes for her arena was a treat. I agree about the Saturn versions of Toshinden being superior gameplay wise, the games controlled like a dream on that console. The PSOne versions had better character models but in terms of content? Saturn versions take it.
Totally agree with you about the anti Saturn bias in Magazines back then. Even today you get RUclipsrs (who barely look like there in their 20's) doing the same thing. The amount of times I've heard that Stupid E3 story. The N64 got destroyed by the Playstation as well yet everyone treats it like it the greatest thing since sliced bread. Oh, and British RUclipsrs who call the Mega Drive a Genisis. They piss me off. Rant over.
Oh man, that really really really pisses me off. Stupid dick Brits calling the Mega Drive a Genesis. What a bunch of twats. Call it as it is! The machine was only called a Genesis in the US and that is only because they couldn't uses the Mega Drive name due to another company owning the rights. Oh, and about the N64, you never hear these idiots state how it lost to the Saturn in Japan. N64 in Japan sold 5.54 million while the Saturn sold around 8 million units (exact numbers are unknown) The Saturn also had over a thousand official releases in Japan, quadruple of the N64.
I have both the original Toshinden, and Toshinden 2 on PC both in their original big boxes as I found them cheap at a flea market years back, and the best way I've found to run them on more modern hardware is to use a CPU speed limiter program(I don't remember the one I use to use, as I've been full time Linux user for a few years now, but I remember having to set it to around 200Mz - 300Mz before they would play at a normal speed), so you might want to look into downloading one for future PC titles that run too fast on modern hardware.
Go SATURN! I have the BAT2 Plus for the PS1 and URA for the Saturn. Now I know which one to go to when I'm in a Toshinden mood. Great comparison video. Thank you Retro Core.
Always love to see the Saturn put the PS1 in its place lol!! Good call though, the Saturn version of this game looks and plays great, no one else seemed to gove it a chance over in the US at least.
Hi Mark, I was having a splendid UK style lunch today. It was the first time I ever had Ploughman's Lunch. What a delightful meal it was. I never had so much fresh ingredients in one meal like this in one afternoon. Amazing. I was truly enjoyable to have. I'm now trying to purchase a cookbook of all the timeless classic recopies the British Isles have to offer in which all the great men, women, and children have loved for centuries bro. 8^) Anthony...
Great botp! As a Saturn fanboy (admitted) I tried to pretend this game didn't exist. This game and Layer Section 2 just always gave the PS guys the win. I tried so hard to like this game, but if you liked Toshinden, you just had to play in the PS 1 sandbox. Love your retro insights.
Like my experience with Amok, Last Bronx, DX-ball & others I played it on a PC Magazine demo CD's ! Never got the full games for those... Imagine nowadays selling a magazine with SD cards having games, Thanks for the Nostalgia.
Great video!! I stayed away from URA back in the day because all the magazines trashed it. I picked up a copy not too long ago and really enjoyed it, definitely a great version of the game!👍👍👍
TamSoft CREATED Toshinden on Sony PlayStation hardware and they managed to get very fortunate of being there very early in 1995 Japan and North America that they generated a lot of attention mostly for the 3d graphics and because it looked convicing before you played it that it seemed like a 3d version of Samurai Spirits from SNK however the actual gameplay mechanics were rough and lacking while the 3d stages looked very impressive and that is the issue when people started comparing the Sony PlayStation against the much more expensive Sega Saturn during 1995 thanks to Sega of America's staff not trying to plan nor prepare to launch the Sega Saturn in 1994 weeks after the Japanese launch because they had their own agenda they were getting away with in the 32X which just wasted resources and caused the decline that would eventually lead to Dreamcast bankrupcy. Here is the issue... NexTech despite being a dedicated Sega Saturn development studio, was charged with making a conversion of Toshinden... NexTech as developers did not create Toshinden... and people need to remember and understand this but back in 1995 this was not ever talked about, it was just the American gamer magazines and the U.K. Edge/Next Generation magazines making huge commentary against the Sega Saturn but this is rooted because of the way the 90s staff at Sega of America decided to treat the Sega fanbase and potential consumers because remember... "Sega Europe" was not immediately established right away so unlike Sony who turned their other subsidiaries to PlayStation, Sega just was not there and even tho people like to use terms like fanboy... there was no real strong fanboy cultivation back then so the way the 32X just showed up as a huge rip off no one wanted and was never a true leap in hardware, it made the Sega brand look weak... That said NexTech most likely also had very limited scheduling and resources... nevermind it takes time for a game developer to learn the hardware and no you cannot blame the development tools because thanks to Sega of America's staff Sega had to make 32X dev tools and Sega Saturn tools... no matter what they claim, there were devs who fell into the trap of 32X, wasted money and time making weak games that never sold and just sat in shelves until the clearance liquidation sales (which retailers were angry about and why many did not want to carry the Sega Saturn... thanks to Sega of America 95 staff treating them like garbage) As such NexTech made a variation of Toshinden games which were never fully focused to be made on Sega Saturn and even though it took a while into 1997, we can see that NexTech were indeed talented enough to make D'Zhird fighting game with complex use and basically a tech demo of the capabilites of the Sega Saturn processors that just showed that fully 3d stages were indeed possible on Sega Saturn hardware... even though that game had rough edges and did not use neither of the RAM expansion carts... again thanks to the staff at Sega of America who were just not supporting those cartridges because they were putting pressure on Japan to make next gen hardware and lead the company to ruin. Also despite TamSoft making Toshinded 2 by using the arcade version of the PS1 hardware, their programmers were still not catching up to the level of Namco's arcade team who basically dropped their high end hardware to focus on PS1... which again is a separate issue but something that Sega's arcade dev team did not do either because they just had higher spec hardware like Model 2 and Model 3 but if the 32X was rejected, there might have been less time wasted on that thing and just less anger, better western sales of Sega Saturn and thus more advanced games because no matter what people like to claim.. the Saturn was choked to death by the SoA branch alone while it thrived in Japan and Sega Europe was slow to get games from NTSC to PAL
Yeah, I remember how, back in the day when it came out in the US, the magazines absolutely crapped all over URA. By the time I got the game for the Saturn (cheaply), it was probably 1998, and the American Saturn was circling the drain. To be honest, I liked the game, the way it played and the way it looked (critics were still perpetuating the myth that the Saturn couldn't do 3D properly). Eventually did trade it off, likely for more Japanese releases for the Saturn, since many of the best games never came to the US. When I was able to play the PS1 version I wasn't nearly as impressed with it.
Ahhh, I remember loving this game when I was a child. I played it 1st in the arcade at the laundromat. I remember being so hype when I 1st seen it but I didn't have no money on me. So weeks later when I had money, I wanted to go play it but I was on punishment. So I quietly snuck out in the afternoon while my parents were in their bedroom, play it like 3 times, lost each time really quickly, came back to my home and got an even longer punishment, lol. I beaten the PSX version so many times that I could unlock all the characters in under 30 mins. Which I did constantly when I knew my friends were coming over. I never knew about the "Plus" version. Yeah EGM was really hating on Sega alot. I remember them giving Batman & Robin on the Genesis/Mega Drive somewhat below average scores saying stuff like: "the graphic weren't that great" and I was like "yeah, Nintendo is paying them!" Also lol @ this team for not finding a real blonde with big boobs! They are plenty out there, clearly they were too lazy! I also totally forgot how awesome the ost was. I love the saxophone part in Eiji's theme.
Lol, oh I remember the days of being punished by my parents 😅. EGM were the American version of C&VG. They'd have no issues spouting crap if the pay was right 😱
A great battle cheers Mark, this games not my cup of tea but i prefer the visuals on the saturn version even though its got a few compromises, definitely like the title screen more with what looks like a vdp2 rotating floor. I remeber my friend importing his psx for a huge amount of cash at the time, he got toshinden and ridge racer and i dont think anyone wanted to play toshinden the afternoon we went round to see it for the firsrt time. I was a Sega fanboy for sure lol. Ive had all the machines and segas games always had me coming back for more.
Lol, I remembered those days. Same situation up in Liverpool. I a friend got a PlayStation WITH ridge Racer, Toshinden and Cosmic Case. Ridge Racer was the only game anyone cared about anf for good reason too.
@@RetroCore I'll take the Saturn's side in Megamix and Nights, but URA? The giant special move pixels, missing transparencies, and cheap looking new characters made me embarrassed to own a copy.
The PS1 intro is deliciously 1990s. It couldn't more representative of the era. Other than that, I get why Capcom and others moved to polygons (Virtua Fighter...), I just don't get why no one noticed that sprites were still so much better - and still are, honestly. I hate fighting games that use polygons instead of beautifully drawn and animated sprites.
Animating high-definition sprite assets that can compete with the fluidity of 3D animation is incredibly expensive to create and requires too much labor/time, which is why SNK tried to live the dream with KOF XII, had to salvage it with KOF XIII, then ultimately conceded to real time polygons with KOF XIV.
Wow, I love the Playstation version. I had no idea the Saturn version was at least as good, if not better playing. Hopefully the Saturn core on the MiSTer makes good progress eventually so that I can put some good time into it! (my Japanese Saturn is dead because... ahem, in a slightly inebriated moment, I forgot to use my step-down converter and plugged it into the 240v mains in Australia. The smell of a burning Saturn still keeps me awake at night)
Oh man, that sucks you blew up your Saturn. It's a shame it isn't like a Dreamcast. On the Dreamcast you could just swap out the Japanese power board for an Australian one.
I am surprised how smooth the frame rate is on the Saturn version, especially considering how it has a reputation for being weak at rendering 3D polygons.
Dang, Mark...no War Gods. You're lucky you put out a quality video here, so we can put away our pitchforks. 🤣Well, I've never actually played any version Toshinden 2. I played the original on PSX pretty early on, since it was one of the first games my friend bought after getting Ridge Racer. It was fairly fun for the time, and I picked up Toshinden Remix for the Saturn later on. It's an okay game but not one of my favorites. On the other hand, I love the Game Boy de-make of a port. But I don't remember ever playing Toshinden 2 at all. I know I never bought a copy. Yeah, I also remember Toshinden URA on the Saturn not being as well received, but it's nice to see it comparing well here.
There's a Toshinden 3 and 4 also on the PlayStation. Part 4 is really bad. I have all the PlayStation Toshinden games including the spin offs. I hope to do a special one day.
@@RetroCore Nitoshinden the "We have have Virtua Fighter kids at home" I think I'm only missing 1, 3,4 and the puzzle game. Vanilla 2 if plus doesn't count. I don't know if Dxhird counts either or the Game boy port
in the windows version, the ellis dress is solid, while in the other versions, it has transparencies, is that because of the rendering mode of the pc or is it always like that?
That happens when using the emulation modes. Those modes were done to allow the game to run on lower end systems of the time without 3d acceleration using Directx software modes. The hardware hal mode shows transparencies but it's not perfect. Direct3D didnt have all the blending modes that the Playstion had back then, so we had to settle with an approximation. This is evident in clouds, the sun and a few other stages. It's funny how the modes designed to run on lower end systems are now used to run the game on systems that are much much faster.
😊That is funny about the low end modes now being valuable for more powerful systems. Glad they were present otherwise the game would be unplayable on modern systems.
Hah! Never knew it was out in the arcades. You learn something everyday. Yeah I remember that alot of mags such as C&VG bashed the Saturn version. Indeed it’s the better version. I think they went for a flat shaded polygon look for Saturn to improve fluidity. It differs from the PSX version in that regard.
You didnt mention though that Saturn uses 2d backgrounds instead of 3d like the other versions thats why it could use its high res mode and thats the reason why it got ditched back then.
That's what I thought. I love this channel and the Saturn version can be the best for what he said. But he should have mentioned the 2d backgrounds on Saturn.
@@jmbenetti Exactly. Psx showed early its 3d strength with this game, Soul Blade and Kensei Sacred Fist (maybe others too, I cant remember), all 3 used 3d backgrounds. Saturn's best is Last Bronx, though its a dark game (which means if its always dark, you need less power to pull off).
I think that is obvious to see which is why it wasn't mentioned. That isn't the reason why they're high resolution though. Zero Divide and D-Xird both run in high resolution too with 3D backgrounds.
@@RetroCore Well, Saturn had to be cleverly programmed to achieve good 3d and was faster in 2d. Aldo VF2 that is a great port, fast and in hi-res uses 2d backgrounds, that obviously lower the polygon charge. I really believe both games couldn't run as they do with 3d backgrounds.
I actually kind of like this game. It’s an improvement over its predecessor imo (decent gameplay, good graphics for the time and an excellent soundtrack) whereas the original Toshinden didn’t age that well (a C- in my book for the roughness it comes across these days), this one kind of holds up. Sure it doesn’t hold a candle to Soul Edge but I think it’s a fighter worth your time. Is this the first example of a reverse arcade port (console game came out first then the arcade version)? For years, I never knew the game came out on Windows PCs back in the day but it’s good to know. Just imagine the game having an HD texture pack. I wonder if PS1 emulators can do that. Given that G-Darius HD exists, it likely can be done.
Mark, would you consider making a video about bias / over-enthusiasm for particular consoles? A video essay might be slightly outside your usual field, but reading the comments on this video got me thinking about it.
Hmm, that's kind of a tricky subject. I mean I could track down examples of bias reviews then prove them wrong by actually showing game footage. That would take a whole heap of work that I'm not against doing but really don't have the time to do.
@@RetroCore :-) That's not actually what I had in mind, although it's a good idea if a lot of work, as you say. What I'd imagined was a video chat / discussion about 'fanboys' and then some healthy (I hope) discussion in the comments. Looking through RUclips, such videos are about PS5 or the latest XBox or whatever, whereas I was thinking about MegaDrive, Super Nintendo, Saturn and, PS1. Still, I understand if it's a non-starter. Cheers!
Absolutely. Magazines were paid off by Sony for sure. Then we had the fanboys that worked for them. EDGE n the UK was well up Sony's arse to the point it was beyond obvious.
It would be enlightening if, at some point, someone who were in charge of such magazines and other gaming media confirmed that some day, like: "Yes, absolutely, we were paid to give the PS1 the edge" or "the deal was to make the Saturn games look uninteresting to the public", and so on.
It's been mentioned in the past. There were few figures in the gaming press back in the late 80s and 90s that weren't on the take. Just look at how so many utter crap Ocean releases got great scores for example.
@@RetroCore I’m seeing a lot of positive press for Nintendo, Square Enix, Capcom and From Software that feels suspicious. Take Sonic ‘06 and Colonial Marines. They are punching bags for game reviewers. Throwing their arms up and snorting derisively like they are the most absurd and ridiculous attempts at making a game they ever saw. The games aren’t even bad!
5:50 The best option for running these Windows 95 games where game speed is tied to framerate is to run them on actual Windows 95/98 on a complete PC emulator with 3DFX Voodoo emulation like PCem or 86Box with era correct hardware selected for the emulated PC.
@@RetroCoreVirtual machines is for resolving software compatibility issues (e.g. game will only run on Windows 98, and not on any Windows NT based OS), not hardware compatibility issues where a game is running too fast on modern CPUs or the game only supports a 3DFX card. You still need to use a PC emulator, not a virtual machine, for Windows 9x games that requires the timings of old CPUs like the 486 or Pentium to run at the correct speed. Virtual machine ≠ PC emulator. If you ever try to run the Windows PC port of Wipeout XL, you'll find out.
Even if the PS1-based versions haven't the best controls (Although i'm very accustomed to them), I can't wait to play this online via Fightcade (DuckStation will be integrated to the aforementioned frontend)
@@RetroCore Once it's done, then let's get ready for some Toshinden 2 action! Of course, Kayin is my main, but I can also play as Eiji, both are my favorite shotos from the genre.
I wonder if the more negative reaction the Saturn port got is a relative thing due to stronger competition in the one-on-one fighter genre on Sega's system.
Nah, I strongly doubt that as the PlayStation does have many great 3D fighters that are not Tekken. I trully think it was magazines just dumping on the console because it had become cool to do so.
I though the Saturn version got panned compared to the psx version.... at the time i had no interest in this game as so much better on Saturn. However; it just shows how bias magazines were in the day.
Battle Arena Toshinden was not a series my friends and I played back in the day- we were more focused on Tekken for our fighting games. It's funny that you mentioned being accused of being a fanboy by expressing opinion about one machine or another running a port better... isn't that why we're here? Because we value your opinion? lol
@@ENiceGeo Ahh, yes. That makes sense. I'd played Remix, so assumed they never bothered translating it for Ura. Turns out it was an addition to Remix during porting. Shame. I love the story dialogue in Remix - keeps me playing!
I have hated this game with a passion ever since it was released, doesn't matter what console it was on. The only redeeming value, imo, are the soundtracks(the original, and then the remixed tracks for URA). I do remember really being impressed by the backgrounds on the PSX version at the time...nowadays, it's hard to believe I ever did, lol. Maybe a comparison on arcade Soul Blade and PSX Soul Blade at some point down the road?
I've never played any of the Toshinden games aside from the GB port of the first one. I've heard the gameplay is terrible in most other versions, so I never really bothered going out of my way to pick them up. That being said, I'm curious if the Saturn's refined controls just make it slightly better or actually a version worth owning. Also it's a shame that modern PCs struggle to run the Win95 version, because that one easily has the best graphics. Windows XP tends to have better 9x compatibility, so I wonder if I could get it running well on my old eMachines.
The Saturn game is easily the most playable but it isn't a patch on Sega's 3D fighters, that's for sure. The controls while far tighter than the other versions are still floaty.
you would probably get better results running old 90s games entirely in a windows 95 virtual machine using VM ware or viortual box. set the CPU and video to a machine of the year it came out like a 450mhz Pentium 2.
Yep, just installed a 32bit XP virtual machine to cover the next Battle of the Ports. The game I am covering won't run in 64bit mode at all but ran like a dream under the 32 bit virtual machine.
You are a Sega fanboy too. haha. :-D, clearly exposed in this video, hihi. Just kidding. My main machine in that area was clearly PC as im very much liked 3DFX back in the time. Also im newer saw a Saturn here in Denmark, So in Denmark its was PSX and N64 im saw. Im did do seen Dreamcast (and did owned that one). PS. Yes, im is one of the Amiga fan, hihi. Im cant regreeat that.
Hope you are enjoying your Saturn. These days a lot of English patches are coming out. The most recent for Stella Assault is well worth checking out. I haven't played the game in about 10 years but I do remember it being long and a lot of fun.
im did newer have a Saturn, but C64, Amiga, N64 and Dreamcast from the time (and pc). Today im have still the Amiga and N64. Im do have a lot of emulation games for all kind of machines. hihi.
When developers took their time, they could get better results from Saturn titles. Due to poor management (Looking at you SOJ) and bad marketing the Saturn didn't sell as how much and the system was abandon too quickly. With that said, Saturn is certain 2nd behind the PC and better than the arcade and PS1 despite lacking proper transparencies.
@@RetroCore SEGA should have made two simple contracts to compete against the PS1 head-to-head in Japan, with Square and another with Namco, Konami released some stuff on the Saturn, but since it lacked install base compared to the PS after FFVII, those companies that were supporting the Saturn from day one ditched it in favor of the PS, so the Saturn never got Resident 2, Tomb Raider 2, Metal Gear, and so on. The same thing that kept the SMS below the NES happened to the Saturn. Here's the tip for Sega in case someone goes back in time, the message is simple so you won't forget it, tell them: "Success is assured if you make deals with as many good developers as you can, and pay them to give you as many exclusives as you can.
They did have one with Namco but money talks and Sega was poor. I saw CyberSled running on a Saturn. It was real! Ridge Racer was also in the works but I've never seen that. No Namco games came to the Saturn in the end.
nah I always thought this is PS1 exclusive game I never knew there even Arcade or even Saturn port, I mean there reason why Sony put the first game in PS1 classic, this game must be great exclusive for PS1 fans than FF7, Megaman X5, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro. right?
My favorite 3D fighting game on the Saturn is Fighters Megamix, the Saturn really does have good 3D fighters, but Soul Blade and specially Tekken 3 are brilliant, one thing Namco and a few other companies did right was to actually increase the games replayability, you get Tekken Force and many bonuses so you don't feel it's just an arcade game in a console. Square added a RPG-like extra mode with their Tobal series, and so on. If SEGA made something similar with VF2, Fighting Vipers, added more tracks to their racing games and more modes, they would be more fondly remembered. My brothers and I are 'Saturn' kids, but in all honesty, if I had to choose between VF2 or Tekken 3, I'd take Tekken without even thinking, but the choice would be harder if it was against Fighters Megamix, but Tekken 3 offers more than just the arcade experience.
For how bad the game looks, the music fuckin BOPS. The arcade version has that classic Capcom Qsound + Lucent DL-1425 combo that I love and the redbook tunes are no slouch
For how bad it looks? What other PS1 game of the same time frame looked better? Toshinden may have been bad in the game play department but graphics and music were top notch, at least until the third game came out.
@@ENiceGeo In comparison to other games launched at the time, be it on PS1, Saturn or God forbid the arcades and PC, it does look kinda crappy. Like, Tekken 1 and 2, Soul Blade, Virtua FIghter 2, Fighting Vipers, Street Fighter EX+, FX Fighter and Star Gladiator. They all looked better
@@angelriverasantana7755 I'll grant that animation-wise Toshinden was poor but the overall game graphics is a very tough challenge to compete with. Telkken 1 characters aren't the best looking and the backgrounds are flat 2D pictures. Tekken 2 looks better than the first game but backgrounds are still 2D. Soul Blade didn't debut until a year after Toshinden 2 came out, not comparable. FX Fighter looks like a very mixed bag, though the space ship stage looked impressive. Star Gladiator didn't come out until almost a year after Toshinden 2, not comparable. Street Fighter EX didn't come out until almost two years after Toshinden 2. Seriously? Virtua Fighter 2 has good looking character models but falters with the backgrounds and in some graphical abilities due to it being on Saturn. Fighitng Vipers didn't release until almost a year after Toshinden 2, somewhat similar to VF 2 in comparison.
2:10 Yeah that's the thing, even by the standards of texture and polygon resolution this game is ugly. Not saying NA & EU did that much better bitd but JP seemed to really struggle with early 3D graphics which is funny from a region usually so good at aesthetics. In particular arcade developers like Capcom & SNK where a fighting game is the easiest low poly setup possible Ie. two character models getting most of the polygons and texture budget.🤔 Never been much of a fan of this series, kind of a glorified tech demo as a franchise imo. I do appreciate their efforts to increase screen resolution as the PS1 was no slouch in that department. Windows ports of console games were neat bitd, usually having the kind of screen resolutions you wouldn't see in emulation till many years later. Nice consistent 4:3 512x384 or 640x480 in most cases over the odder anamorphic screen modes game consoles tended to use. Definitely have to give credit for the SS port pushing screen resolutions that high since it's quite impressive for that era. I think that's something the SS could do better than PS1 and was definitely something you'd want to do when porting to the platform. Only caveat to that enhancement was how it was AV cable dependent Ie. unless you used S-Video or better the increased res was mostly masked on the CRT.
Honestly I remember this game being one of the least interesting fighting game on both the Saturn and PSX, both those consoles had some very good fighting games
![Battle Arena Toshinden 2 [Review]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/aukA9mq6GTY/mqdefault.jpg)
I did QA for the Windows port. The reason it's pretty much identical to the PS version is because the port is emulating a big portion of the PS's cpu. I promised unreleased codes if you ever did a BOTP of this one when you did the original Toshinden BOTP, so here they are. Big head mode: Go to the options screen and type in without quotes "kidzuya". For Bigger head mode: "maxzuya" and if you want to see our ugly mugs: "showme". There's other easter eggs hidden in some stages which can be seen using a debug camera viewer that can be activated during pause (I don't remember exactly how but it involved using the L and R buttons). We also had a code that would trigger an alternative story, but it had to be cut in fears of Takara getting upset if we included it.
This is an awesome post. What's the story behind the alternate story? Did you guys just decide to put in a new one? Because that's awesome.
@@CorporalDanLives I wish I could tell you what the story was about. I didn't get the opportunity to see it before it got cut. Only the code to switch to use it was implemented and in fact, still works, it just doesn't do anything though. It was an original story created by another one of the QAs. He's written a few comic books and other games under his belt as well as assist in other projects. I'll ask if he still has it around and if it would be ok to share. When production caught wind of it, it was decided that it went beyond just being an easter egg and could get us in trouble. We really loved working on this port. And for me personally, it was a lot of fun.
Thanks for the codes! 👍. I'm very interested in the virtual camera mode. Hopefully I can get that working. Love seeing behind the scenes in games.
@@RetroCore Not sure if you figure it out, but here's how to activate the free camera, turns out it's the same as in the PS version: Pause the game, go to options, Change L1, R1, L2 and R2 to "Not used" then go to Camera Type and change it to "Control". Go back to R1 and change it to "Camera Control" it should change the rest of the L and R buttons automatically. Exit the options. You should be able to rotate the camera around with the L and R buttons . Use "select" to change from camera rotation to camera movement/zoom mode.
It is interesting to see how much effort was put into porting to the saturn! Improved controls and I'm almost sure the backgrounds are being rendered by vdp2 (so you lose 3d backgrounds to get the higher resolution and consistent performance). I played both ps1 and saturn versions back in the day and only realized the differences properly watching the video! So battle of the ports is great even when I know the game!! Thanks!!
for me the Saturn is still the most interesting console that sparks my interest with its potential often underutilized. hope games continue to be made for it
And the moment the video starts, you've chosen my absolute favourite music track from Toshinden URA. Love it! :)
It's a great track for sure👍
I find that there is no better example of the differences between the Playstation and the Saturn in handling 3D than these two versions of Toshinden. On the one hand a clean 3D, in high resolution but which lacks of depth and on the other hand a less stable 3D with a lot of polygones gleetches but sophisticated graphic effects and lighting effects . Toshinden on Playstation or Saturn is kind of my "guilty pleasure" I know it's not a technical or very deep gameplay, but I like the kitschness of the game and the characters.
Back then, Soul Edge on PS1 was THE king. Still my favorite game in the franchise. Yes, I did played Soul Calibur III, IV & VI. It looked awesome, played great, had a kick ass soundtrack & had a jiggle physics (Taki) before Dead or Alive became a thing👍💪
My favourite in the series is Soul Calibur on the Dreamcast 👍
I'm with you. URA is the best version of T2. Had they not taken characters out, it would have been the definitive version of Toshinden 2.
With the Windows version, it might be worth using RivaTuner to throttle the frame rate. Though older PC arcade ports remind us all why console was the platform for the genre before the days of USB and Xinput.
Fun fact - the arcade version uses "Sofia TAKE 2" as Rungo's theme. Odd that his actual theme didn't make it to that version. Maybe it didn't sound good on the high-pitched QSound platform?
It'd be awesome if Fightcade also had lobbies for Saturn games and one of them being from this game
Yea, Toshinden URA with GGPO Rollback, it would be cool
Occasionally, the Saturn *did* get a leg up over the PlayStation on a 3D multiplat, but its something of a rarity.
Saturn was a 2D king though. Some work arounds for proper transparencies but it was doable on it if you knew the hardware.
@@chrissymc886 History shows that Sega made the wrong choice prioritizing 2D though.
@@SomeOrangeCat at the time yes, but look at it now? Retro 2D games are extremely popular again. I guess they just made a lot of bad choices during the initial 3D boom.
@@chrissymc886 Well, 2D games becoming popular again, decades after the fact, isn't what 1995 Sega needed.
@@SomeOrangeCat no, but if they had made smarter decisions back then, they might still be in the console market today and flourishing.
fantastic video as usual...about the 2d URA backgrounds....higher res yes but i prefer the 3d backgrounds of the other versions :P
Fair enough. They are a little flat. It would have been better if they had tried drawing things with parallax to give a 3D impression as found on the backgrounds in Sega's 3D Saturn fighters.
The Saturn version is actually my favorite of the releases for this. It is better than the rest by far. some people don't like the exclusive characters, but I had a blast.
I can understand that. Ronron is kind of useless 😅
The reason I stuck with the original PlayStation for the years is the Fact, that since 1998 until 2003 it kept getting new releases, in which many of them were really great games.
Saturn had a great start imo, and shown that it can also deliver gaming experience on top level, this is one of the proofs. Sadly the lack of new media localised for the Europe (and I guess US too) pretty much killed it, I still dont get why many games for Saturn were available only in Japan, but their PS versions were in English.
It's all due to a lack of money I guess. The Saturn was still getting games in Japan even when the Dreamcast was released.
And tbh I know about many of them thanks to you and BOTP!
Thanks a whole lot again for doing the series!
Thanks for doing this. I own the Sega Saturn and PC versions of this and the first game (and D-Xhird for the Sega Saturn, more on that one later). Also played the PlayStation versions for comparison's sake with all of them. The other day was thinking about the series and remembered that you had done a BOTP of the first game but not for the second (wasn't sure, searched for it and didn't find it), hence my suggestion in the BOTP video of the first game. Didn't imagine you would do it so quickly! And yes, I was sure you would take the same conclusions with the Sega Saturn version, I'm of the same opinion.
The thing with all those unfavorable critics may have been mainly because of the late release of the Sega Saturn version. By then, I believe the PlayStation was already on the verge of getting Battle Arena Toshinden 3, and I suspect they were seeing another iteration of Battle Arena Toshinden 2 as "dated", even though Nextech, Sega and Takara bothered to retool it enough to not be quite the same as Battle Arena Toshinden 2 but "something else". This is why they think they didn't went with a more direct approach towards the conversion, unlike what Nextech had done with the first game. But you have a point. When the Sega Saturn got a PlayStation game long after, it was criticised for being already a dated game and something they had already seen, but when it was the other way around, notably with Game Arts games like Grandia, then they wouldn't say the same. I'm glad you did some justice to this.
It would have been interesting to see what a possible Sega Saturn version or equivalent of Battle Arena Toshinden 3 would have done, the closest we have to that hypothetical port was turned into a completely different game once again handled by Nextech for Takara: D-Xhird. In fact, Eiji is featured as a secret cameo character in that game.
So right with the Grandia point. The PlayStation version is inferior to the Saturn on so many point and came much later yet it was constantly praised while the Saturn original wasn't even acknowledge in multiform magazines. So sad.
Dxird is technically an impressive Saturn game but I beleive it was rather lacking in the playability department.
We had a multiformat mag here in Australia called HYPER, and they did a massive Saturn import blowout. Grandia received a 96 out of 100 from them, if I remember correctly :) I always coveted Grandia, and eventually got the Japanese Saturn version. Unfortunately, I didn't last long with a guide... I ended up playing through the PS1 version, unfortunately. I need to give the fan English patch a spin, I think!!!
I suspect another reason the Saturn version didn’t get good reviews are the missing 3D backgrounds and transparencies. Ellis is missing her transparent skirt entirely for some reason, so I could easily see the games mags seeing that as confirmation that the Saturn “can’t do 3D well” and marked it down because if it.
@@dreamcastfan That was definitely a thing, for sure! Even Saturn magazines didn't rate URA all too well back then either.
Your line of thinking is a bit wrong... Grandia was well received by the WESTERN GAMER JOURNALISTS back then despite coming years after the original Sega Saturn version because there was something missing that is often un-felt especially by younger people who did not really have actual buying power nor were they digging up information in the gamer magazines back when the Sega Saturn launched in Japan all the way to the end or 1994 to 1998 which applies to the Western regions thanks to policies acted upon and enabled by the 90s Sega of America staff.
Grandia was not a priority for the 90s Sega of America staff, they were never, NEVER gonna support it, as such the game was gonna remain Japan only until a small company purchased the license to do an English translation. THAT is why there are no real problems with the PS1 version of Grandia but it is the opposite with Toshinden because early in 1995 when the western PS hype was being built, Toshinden stood out as a great looking 3d graphics fighting game even though it played like rubbish.
Also Toshinden was primarily programmed and developed for and using Sony PS1 hardware and the arcade hardware version... as opposed as NexTech being a fairly decent and increasingly advanced Sega Saturn port team and original games under Sega contract dev.
I will say it was unfair that people in the gamer magazines immediately started whining about the lack of transparencies with the Sega Saturn version as well as lack of the 3d backgrounds but that anti-Sega sentiment came from Sega of America's 90s staff treatment towards the very same Sega owners by shoving 32X in our faces, prioritizing live action FMV games and making sure to NOT do any true marketing support for the Sega Saturn here in North America which affected the other regions.
Sega Saturn failed because of 90s Sega of America staff... all their staff... not anyone in Japan or Europe but the SoA staff... they wanted to focus and they were the only ones excited to focus on the 32X... maybe its cause they invented it and they were gonna get major kickback bonus checks if it actually truly sold out to suckered Genesis owners which thankfully it never did because most of the 700k units shipped to retailers sat in stores unlike the lies that Sega of America fanboys are spreading.
The Saturn version looks fantastic, OK the backgrounds are not truly 3D (assume using the second SH-2), but I think the higher resolution is well worth it, and of course gameplay is always king! Great round up.
As much as I liked to play URA back in the day, have to be honest, I didn't like the backgrounds for the most part. Most stages were very flat looking images (Mondo, Ellis) or simply unimpressive (Ronron, Fo Fai). Only a few stages stood out because they looked good (Rungo, Replicant and Wolf).
You're a brave man for tackling this one
Thank you for speaking out against those biased 90s gaming rags like Next Gen/Edge...and all those retro gaming RUclipsrs who keep repeating the same crap they read as kids w/o even playing the games on different systems. I wonder how many people who have gotten the Saturn if the reviewers hadn't hated on Sega since Day One...
Those RUclipsrs who make videos thinking they know it all bug know sweet FA annoy me. They just read some crap the blurt it off as personal opinion. Not cool. In fact, many weren't even born when the games they talk about were released.
Most of the 3D fighting games from this era suffered from the "floaty" feeling of the characters and moon-like jumps, which turned battles kind of clumsy. That wasn't the case with Tekken, whose excellent controls and physics took it to the top of its category. And Namco hasn't changed the basic feeling of the physics ever since. If you play the last Tekken released, it will feel very familiar to the very first one.
I remember this back when Virtua Fighter hit the arcades in my country (US). I was so used to 2D fighters that the floatiness of the characters annoyed me.
I played the Saturn version as a kid.
Side note: BAT for the Gameboy is a great game. Especially if you have a Super Gameboy and a friend. Not a port of BAT2 (or BAT1 for that matter) but a 2D fighter with many of the same characters.
Indeed. Thag is a pretty good title on the GB. It's on par with the better SNK ports to the system.
I never got to play URA, but I did get to play the Saturn port of part 1. I enjoyed the differences that were in the Saturn version.
The first Saturn port was interesting but ultimately pretty poor.
Loved Toshinden 2, spent many hours playing that game on PSOne and PC. That soundtrack still holds up. Amazingly Rungo's theme holds up as one of my favorites from the game. Sofia having two themes for her arena was a treat. I agree about the Saturn versions of Toshinden being superior gameplay wise, the games controlled like a dream on that console. The PSOne versions had better character models but in terms of content? Saturn versions take it.
Totally agree with you about the anti Saturn bias in Magazines back then. Even today you get RUclipsrs (who barely look like there in their 20's) doing the same thing. The amount of times I've heard that Stupid E3 story. The N64 got destroyed by the Playstation as well yet everyone treats it like it the greatest thing since sliced bread. Oh, and British RUclipsrs who call the Mega Drive a Genisis. They piss me off. Rant over.
Oh man, that really really really pisses me off. Stupid dick Brits calling the Mega Drive a Genesis. What a bunch of twats. Call it as it is! The machine was only called a Genesis in the US and that is only because they couldn't uses the Mega Drive name due to another company owning the rights.
Oh, and about the N64, you never hear these idiots state how it lost to the Saturn in Japan. N64 in Japan sold 5.54 million while the Saturn sold around 8 million units (exact numbers are unknown) The Saturn also had over a thousand official releases in Japan, quadruple of the N64.
I have both the original Toshinden, and Toshinden 2 on PC both in their original big boxes as I found them cheap at a flea market years back, and the best way I've found to run them on more modern hardware is to use a CPU speed limiter program(I don't remember the one I use to use, as I've been full time Linux user for a few years now, but I remember having to set it to around 200Mz - 300Mz before they would play at a normal speed), so you might want to look into downloading one for future PC titles that run too fast on modern hardware.
I've just installed a virtual machine that helped but it's a faff so a Cpu limiting programme maybe the way to go. Thanks for the advice.
@@RetroCore Anytime 👍
Go SATURN! I have the BAT2 Plus for the PS1 and URA for the Saturn. Now I know which one to go to when I'm in a Toshinden mood. Great comparison video. Thank you Retro Core.
Good choice!
Always love to see the Saturn put the PS1 in its place lol!! Good call though, the Saturn version of this game looks and plays great, no one else seemed to gove it a chance over in the US at least.
Hi Mark,
I was having a splendid UK style lunch today. It was the first time I ever had Ploughman's Lunch. What a delightful meal it was. I never had so much fresh ingredients in one meal like this in one afternoon. Amazing. I was truly enjoyable to have. I'm now trying to purchase a cookbook of all the timeless classic recopies the British Isles have to offer in which all the great men, women, and children have loved for centuries bro. 8^)
Anthony...
It's been about 30 you ars since I've had a Plaoughman's Lunch. Man, just reading your comment brings back memories of when I was a teenager.
Great botp! As a Saturn fanboy (admitted) I tried to pretend this game didn't exist. This game and Layer Section 2 just always gave the PS guys the win. I tried so hard to like this game, but if you liked Toshinden, you just had to play in the PS 1 sandbox. Love your retro insights.
This is Toshinden 2, the Saturn version is the better one this time unlike the first installment. I'm with you on Layer Section 2 though.
Like my experience with Amok, Last Bronx, DX-ball & others I played it on a PC Magazine demo CD's ! Never got the full games for those... Imagine nowadays selling a magazine with SD cards having games, Thanks for the Nostalgia.
It would halo sell a magazine in my opinion.
Great video!! I stayed away from URA back in the day because all the magazines trashed it. I picked up a copy not too long ago and really enjoyed it, definitely a great version of the game!👍👍👍
Yep, magazines giving poor information made the Saturn seem worse than it was.
The FMV intro though.
That is class.
TamSoft CREATED Toshinden on Sony PlayStation hardware and they managed to get very fortunate of being there very early in 1995 Japan and North America that they generated a lot of attention mostly for the 3d graphics and because it looked convicing before you played it that it seemed like a 3d version of Samurai Spirits from SNK however the actual gameplay mechanics were rough and lacking while the 3d stages looked very impressive and that is the issue when people started comparing the Sony PlayStation against the much more expensive Sega Saturn during 1995 thanks to Sega of America's staff not trying to plan nor prepare to launch the Sega Saturn in 1994 weeks after the Japanese launch because they had their own agenda they were getting away with in the 32X which just wasted resources and caused the decline that would eventually lead to Dreamcast bankrupcy.
Here is the issue... NexTech despite being a dedicated Sega Saturn development studio, was charged with making a conversion of Toshinden... NexTech as developers did not create Toshinden... and people need to remember and understand this but back in 1995 this was not ever talked about, it was just the American gamer magazines and the U.K. Edge/Next Generation magazines making huge commentary against the Sega Saturn but this is rooted because of the way the 90s staff at Sega of America decided to treat the Sega fanbase and potential consumers because remember... "Sega Europe" was not immediately established right away so unlike Sony who turned their other subsidiaries to PlayStation, Sega just was not there and even tho people like to use terms like fanboy... there was no real strong fanboy cultivation back then so the way the 32X just showed up as a huge rip off no one wanted and was never a true leap in hardware, it made the Sega brand look weak...
That said NexTech most likely also had very limited scheduling and resources... nevermind it takes time for a game developer to learn the hardware and no you cannot blame the development tools because thanks to Sega of America's staff Sega had to make 32X dev tools and Sega Saturn tools... no matter what they claim, there were devs who fell into the trap of 32X, wasted money and time making weak games that never sold and just sat in shelves until the clearance liquidation sales (which retailers were angry about and why many did not want to carry the Sega Saturn... thanks to Sega of America 95 staff treating them like garbage)
As such NexTech made a variation of Toshinden games which were never fully focused to be made on Sega Saturn and even though it took a while into 1997, we can see that NexTech were indeed talented enough to make D'Zhird fighting game with complex use and basically a tech demo of the capabilites of the Sega Saturn processors that just showed that fully 3d stages were indeed possible on Sega Saturn hardware... even though that game had rough edges and did not use neither of the RAM expansion carts... again thanks to the staff at Sega of America who were just not supporting those cartridges because they were putting pressure on Japan to make next gen hardware and lead the company to ruin.
Also despite TamSoft making Toshinded 2 by using the arcade version of the PS1 hardware, their programmers were still not catching up to the level of Namco's arcade team who basically dropped their high end hardware to focus on PS1... which again is a separate issue but something that Sega's arcade dev team did not do either because they just had higher spec hardware like Model 2 and Model 3 but if the 32X was rejected, there might have been less time wasted on that thing and just less anger, better western sales of Sega Saturn and thus more advanced games because no matter what people like to claim.. the Saturn was choked to death by the SoA branch alone while it thrived in Japan and Sega Europe was slow to get games from NTSC to PAL
Yeah, I remember how, back in the day when it came out in the US, the magazines absolutely crapped all over URA. By the time I got the game for the Saturn (cheaply), it was probably 1998, and the American Saturn was circling the drain. To be honest, I liked the game, the way it played and the way it looked (critics were still perpetuating the myth that the Saturn couldn't do 3D properly). Eventually did trade it off, likely for more Japanese releases for the Saturn, since many of the best games never came to the US. When I was able to play the PS1 version I wasn't nearly as impressed with it.
The Saturn was really the king of the fighting game, even if misinformed mass appeal magazines would try to tell people differently.
Ahhh, I remember loving this game when I was a child. I played it 1st in the arcade at the laundromat. I remember being so hype when I 1st seen it but I didn't have no money on me. So weeks later when I had money, I wanted to go play it but I was on punishment. So I quietly snuck out in the afternoon while my parents were in their bedroom, play it like 3 times, lost each time really quickly, came back to my home and got an even longer punishment, lol.
I beaten the PSX version so many times that I could unlock all the characters in under 30 mins. Which I did constantly when I knew my friends were coming over. I never knew about the "Plus" version. Yeah EGM was really hating on Sega alot. I remember them giving Batman & Robin on the Genesis/Mega Drive somewhat below average scores saying stuff like: "the graphic weren't that great" and I was like "yeah, Nintendo is paying them!" Also lol @ this team for not finding a real blonde with big boobs! They are plenty out there, clearly they were too lazy! I also totally forgot how awesome the ost was. I love the saxophone part in Eiji's theme.
Lol, oh I remember the days of being punished by my parents 😅.
EGM were the American version of C&VG. They'd have no issues spouting crap if the pay was right 😱
I'll have to give the Saturn version the label of being the best in this mini competition; especially when compared to Arcade.
hi there! i played that one as an import on the ps1. was a cool game!
Glad you had fun with it. That's what is important.
A great battle cheers Mark, this games not my cup of tea but i prefer the visuals on the saturn version even though its got a few compromises, definitely like the title screen more with what looks like a vdp2 rotating floor. I remeber my friend importing his psx for a huge amount of cash at the time, he got toshinden and ridge racer and i dont think anyone wanted to play toshinden the afternoon we went round to see it for the firsrt time. I was a Sega fanboy for sure lol. Ive had all the machines and segas games always had me coming back for more.
Lol, I remembered those days. Same situation up in Liverpool. I a friend got a PlayStation WITH ridge Racer, Toshinden and Cosmic Case. Ridge Racer was the only game anyone cared about anf for good reason too.
It's not the greatest fighter, but it's still entertaining. The music and graphics are great, especially on the Saturn.
Neither bad nor awesome imho there are better 3d fighers for Saturn like Virtua Fighter 2,Fighting Vipers,Dead or Alive and 😉 Final Fight Revenge 🤡
Being accused to be a SEGA Fanboy is a title we can wear proudly.
Well said. It's cool to support the underdog.
Back in the day I wasnt thinking that Saturn is an underdog!
But it sadly became one around 1998.
@@RetroCore
I'll take the Saturn's side in Megamix and Nights, but URA? The giant special move pixels, missing transparencies, and cheap looking new characters made me embarrassed to own a copy.
Fudge yea!
I had all the consoles so I wasn't a fanboy of anything lol benefits of being an only child, raised by grandparents. Christmas was new console time 😂
The PS1 intro is deliciously 1990s. It couldn't more representative of the era. Other than that, I get why Capcom and others moved to polygons (Virtua Fighter...), I just don't get why no one noticed that sprites were still so much better - and still are, honestly. I hate fighting games that use polygons instead of beautifully drawn and animated sprites.
Animating high-definition sprite assets that can compete with the fluidity of 3D animation is incredibly expensive to create and requires too much labor/time, which is why SNK tried to live the dream with KOF XII, had to salvage it with KOF XIII, then ultimately conceded to real time polygons with KOF XIV.
Agreed. Toshinden and Tobal would have been much better with sprites.
Wow, I love the Playstation version. I had no idea the Saturn version was at least as good, if not better playing. Hopefully the Saturn core on the MiSTer makes good progress eventually so that I can put some good time into it! (my Japanese Saturn is dead because... ahem, in a slightly inebriated moment, I forgot to use my step-down converter and plugged it into the 240v mains in Australia. The smell of a burning Saturn still keeps me awake at night)
Oh man, that sucks you blew up your Saturn. It's a shame it isn't like a Dreamcast. On the Dreamcast you could just swap out the Japanese power board for an Australian one.
I am surprised how smooth the frame rate is on the Saturn version, especially considering how it has a reputation for being weak at rendering 3D polygons.
Dang, Mark...no War Gods. You're lucky you put out a quality video here, so we can put away our pitchforks. 🤣Well, I've never actually played any version Toshinden 2. I played the original on PSX pretty early on, since it was one of the first games my friend bought after getting Ridge Racer. It was fairly fun for the time, and I picked up Toshinden Remix for the Saturn later on. It's an okay game but not one of my favorites. On the other hand, I love the Game Boy de-make of a port. But I don't remember ever playing Toshinden 2 at all. I know I never bought a copy. Yeah, I also remember Toshinden URA on the Saturn not being as well received, but it's nice to see it comparing well here.
There's a Toshinden 3 and 4 also on the PlayStation. Part 4 is really bad. I have all the PlayStation Toshinden games including the spin offs. I hope to do a special one day.
@@RetroCore Nitoshinden the "We have have Virtua Fighter kids at home"
I think I'm only missing 1, 3,4 and the puzzle game. Vanilla 2 if plus doesn't count. I don't know if Dxhird counts either or the Game boy port
At the time I was somewhat impressed by the pc version, I will have to give the saturn version another look!
Make sure to play it on original NTSC hardware of you can.
in the windows version, the ellis dress is solid, while in the other versions, it has transparencies, is that because of the rendering mode of the pc or is it always like that?
I think it's to do with the rendering mode.
That happens when using the emulation modes. Those modes were done to allow the game to run on lower end systems of the time without 3d acceleration using Directx software modes. The hardware hal mode shows transparencies but it's not perfect. Direct3D didnt have all the blending modes that the Playstion had back then, so we had to settle with an approximation. This is evident in clouds, the sun and a few other stages. It's funny how the modes designed to run on lower end systems are now used to run the game on systems that are much much faster.
😊That is funny about the low end modes now being valuable for more powerful systems. Glad they were present otherwise the game would be unplayable on modern systems.
Hah! Never knew it was out in the arcades. You learn something everyday. Yeah I remember that alot of mags such as C&VG bashed the Saturn version. Indeed it’s the better version. I think they went for a flat shaded polygon look for Saturn to improve fluidity. It differs from the PSX version in that regard.
You didnt mention though that Saturn uses 2d backgrounds instead of 3d like the other versions thats why it could use its high res mode and thats the reason why it got ditched back then.
That's what I thought. I love this channel and the Saturn version can be the best for what he said. But he should have mentioned the 2d backgrounds on Saturn.
@@jmbenetti Exactly. Psx showed early its 3d strength with this game, Soul Blade and Kensei Sacred Fist (maybe others too, I cant remember), all 3 used 3d backgrounds.
Saturn's best is Last Bronx, though its a dark game (which means if its always dark, you need less power to pull off).
I think that is obvious to see which is why it wasn't mentioned.
That isn't the reason why they're high resolution though. Zero Divide and D-Xird both run in high resolution too with 3D backgrounds.
Last Bronx also uses 2D backgrounds. They're 2D parallax assets drawn in a 3D prospective.
@@RetroCore Well, Saturn had to be cleverly programmed to achieve good 3d and was faster in 2d. Aldo VF2 that is a great port, fast and in hi-res uses 2d backgrounds, that obviously lower the polygon charge. I really believe both games couldn't run as they do with 3d backgrounds.
I actually kind of like this game. It’s an improvement over its predecessor imo (decent gameplay, good graphics for the time and an excellent soundtrack) whereas the original Toshinden didn’t age that well (a C- in my book for the roughness it comes across these days), this one kind of holds up. Sure it doesn’t hold a candle to Soul Edge but I think it’s a fighter worth your time. Is this the first example of a reverse arcade port (console game came out first then the arcade version)? For years, I never knew the game came out on Windows PCs back in the day but it’s good to know. Just imagine the game having an HD texture pack. I wonder if PS1 emulators can do that. Given that G-Darius HD exists, it likely can be done.
A HD texture pack for the PC version would be really cool. I wonder if anyone has even done one.
Mark, would you consider making a video about bias / over-enthusiasm for particular consoles? A video essay might be slightly outside your usual field, but reading the comments on this video got me thinking about it.
Hmm, that's kind of a tricky subject. I mean I could track down examples of bias reviews then prove them wrong by actually showing game footage. That would take a whole heap of work that I'm not against doing but really don't have the time to do.
@@RetroCore :-) That's not actually what I had in mind, although it's a good idea if a lot of work, as you say.
What I'd imagined was a video chat / discussion about 'fanboys' and then some healthy (I hope) discussion in the comments.
Looking through RUclips, such videos are about PS5 or the latest XBox or whatever, whereas I was thinking about MegaDrive, Super Nintendo, Saturn and, PS1.
Still, I understand if it's a non-starter. Cheers!
I think I recognise some of the crowd from Pit Fighter. 3:43
A bit rough but I love it none the less mostly for the music. I thought it was just me thinking the Saturn version was faster
Nope, it's definitely a more fluid version.
Are you saying that the media was holding an anti-Sega bias?
I’ve been saying that for years.
It must be tough to be Sega.
Absolutely. Magazines were paid off by Sony for sure. Then we had the fanboys that worked for them. EDGE n the UK was well up Sony's arse to the point it was beyond obvious.
It would be enlightening if, at some point, someone who were in charge of such magazines and other gaming media confirmed that some day, like: "Yes, absolutely, we were paid to give the PS1 the edge" or "the deal was to make the Saturn games look uninteresting to the public", and so on.
It's been mentioned in the past. There were few figures in the gaming press back in the late 80s and 90s that weren't on the take. Just look at how so many utter crap Ocean releases got great scores for example.
@@RetroCore I’m seeing a lot of positive press for Nintendo, Square Enix, Capcom and From Software that feels suspicious.
Take Sonic ‘06 and Colonial Marines. They are punching bags for game reviewers. Throwing their arms up and snorting derisively like they are the most absurd and ridiculous attempts at making a game they ever saw. The games aren’t even bad!
@@roberto1519 if anyone did fess up it wouldn’t get published or the character of the person would be attacked.
5:50 The best option for running these Windows 95 games where game speed is tied to framerate is to run them on actual Windows 95/98 on a complete PC emulator with 3DFX Voodoo emulation like PCem or 86Box with era correct hardware selected for the emulated PC.
I've just installed a virtual machine on my Win 7 PC for future games that give me trouble. Hopefully this will fix everything from now on.
@@RetroCoreVirtual machines is for resolving software compatibility issues (e.g. game will only run on Windows 98, and not on any Windows NT based OS), not hardware compatibility issues where a game is running too fast on modern CPUs or the game only supports a 3DFX card. You still need to use a PC emulator, not a virtual machine, for Windows 9x games that requires the timings of old CPUs like the 486 or Pentium to run at the correct speed. Virtual machine ≠ PC emulator. If you ever try to run the Windows PC port of Wipeout XL, you'll find out.
Even if the PS1-based versions haven't the best controls (Although i'm very accustomed to them), I can't wait to play this online via Fightcade (DuckStation will be integrated to the aforementioned frontend)
With the amount of fighting games and n the PSX, I wonder how easy it will be to get a match going.
@@RetroCore Once it's done, then let's get ready for some Toshinden 2 action!
Of course, Kayin is my main, but I can also play as Eiji, both are my favorite shotos from the genre.
I should try to find the windows 95 version to try. I wonder if this will work on windows 10 if it works on windows 7.
You'll have the same issues that I had under Windows 7. I did try it on my main PC which runs windows 10.
I wonder if the more negative reaction the Saturn port got is a relative thing due to stronger competition in the one-on-one fighter genre on Sega's system.
Nah, I strongly doubt that as the PlayStation does have many great 3D fighters that are not Tekken.
I trully think it was magazines just dumping on the console because it had become cool to do so.
PS1, Japan-only, BAT2+ FTW 👍
That's the one I have
I though the Saturn version got panned compared to the psx version.... at the time i had no interest in this game as so much better on Saturn. However; it just shows how bias magazines were in the day.
I own a PAL copy of this for ps1. The Saturn version looks so much better, I'll probably buy it when I get the chance.
If I remember rightly, the PAL version was optimised for full screen as well.
@@RetroCore It has small borders, but it's in the correct aspect ratio. Game speed's a bit slower, but it's clearly been tweaked.
I have the ps1 and ss versions and without a doubt the ss plays the best.
Thank you 👍. I'm also someone who owns both original games and yes, I agree with you.
Battle Arena Toshinden was not a series my friends and I played back in the day- we were more focused on Tekken for our fighting games. It's funny that you mentioned being accused of being a fanboy by expressing opinion about one machine or another running a port better... isn't that why we're here? Because we value your opinion? lol
I doubt anyone values my opinion but there are those who love to make sure everyone follows theirs.
Is the story mode for Ura limited to the JP edition? The US version just has an arcade mode.
That's sad. I guess they couldn't be bothered translating it.
There's no story mode for URA or any Toshinden game except Toshinden S (Remix) and Toshinden Subaru (4).
@@ENiceGeo Ahh, yes. That makes sense. I'd played Remix, so assumed they never bothered translating it for Ura. Turns out it was an addition to Remix during porting. Shame. I love the story dialogue in Remix - keeps me playing!
Does Star Gladiator run on the same arcade hardware?
Yes or if not, a variation of it.
Huh....this was by capcom?!
Edit: ahhh i see (explained in vid)
I have hated this game with a passion ever since it was released, doesn't matter what console it was on. The only redeeming value, imo, are the soundtracks(the original, and then the remixed tracks for URA). I do remember really being impressed by the backgrounds on the PSX version at the time...nowadays, it's hard to believe I ever did, lol. Maybe a comparison on arcade Soul Blade and PSX Soul Blade at some point down the road?
All Toshinden games are crap compared to Sega or Namco's 3D fighters 😅
I've never played any of the Toshinden games aside from the GB port of the first one. I've heard the gameplay is terrible in most other versions, so I never really bothered going out of my way to pick them up. That being said, I'm curious if the Saturn's refined controls just make it slightly better or actually a version worth owning. Also it's a shame that modern PCs struggle to run the Win95 version, because that one easily has the best graphics. Windows XP tends to have better 9x compatibility, so I wonder if I could get it running well on my old eMachines.
The Saturn game is easily the most playable but it isn't a patch on Sega's 3D fighters, that's for sure. The controls while far tighter than the other versions are still floaty.
The arcade game will be run on the same hardware as sony playstation
Pretty much.
Does anyone else think it's odd the Windows version of the game doesn't have transparencies?
It's due to how it was rendered. Sadly, if I chose a different option the game would have been running at five times the speed 😏
@@RetroCore Ooooh that explains it
Sofia looks to be censored on the PC version 👎. At least there's the possibility of mods.
you would probably get better results running old 90s games entirely in a windows 95 virtual machine using VM ware or viortual box. set the CPU and video to a machine of the year it came out like a 450mhz Pentium 2.
Yep, just installed a 32bit XP virtual machine to cover the next Battle of the Ports. The game I am covering won't run in 64bit mode at all but ran like a dream under the 32 bit virtual machine.
i like SEGA then more than the last decade or so
You are a Sega fanboy too. haha. :-D, clearly exposed in this video, hihi. Just kidding.
My main machine in that area was clearly PC as im very much liked 3DFX back in the time. Also im newer saw a Saturn here in Denmark, So in Denmark its was PSX and N64 im saw. Im did do seen Dreamcast (and did owned that one).
PS. Yes, im is one of the Amiga fan, hihi. Im cant regreeat that.
Hope you are enjoying your Saturn. These days a lot of English patches are coming out. The most recent for Stella Assault is well worth checking out.
I haven't played the game in about 10 years but I do remember it being long and a lot of fun.
im did newer have a Saturn, but C64, Amiga, N64 and Dreamcast from the time (and pc). Today im have still the Amiga and N64. Im do have a lot of emulation games for all kind of machines. hihi.
When developers took their time, they could get better results from Saturn titles. Due to poor management (Looking at you SOJ) and bad marketing the Saturn didn't sell as how much and the system was abandon too quickly. With that said, Saturn is certain 2nd behind the PC and better than the arcade and PS1 despite lacking proper transparencies.
But hey, it outsold the N64 version n Japan which is a win! It even outsold the PlayStation at one point.
@@RetroCore SEGA should have made two simple contracts to compete against the PS1 head-to-head in Japan, with Square and another with Namco, Konami released some stuff on the Saturn, but since it lacked install base compared to the PS after FFVII, those companies that were supporting the Saturn from day one ditched it in favor of the PS, so the Saturn never got Resident 2, Tomb Raider 2, Metal Gear, and so on.
The same thing that kept the SMS below the NES happened to the Saturn.
Here's the tip for Sega in case someone goes back in time, the message is simple so you won't forget it, tell them: "Success is assured if you make deals with as many good developers as you can, and pay them to give you as many exclusives as you can.
They did have one with Namco but money talks and Sega was poor. I saw CyberSled running on a Saturn. It was real! Ridge Racer was also in the works but I've never seen that. No Namco games came to the Saturn in the end.
nah I always thought this is PS1 exclusive game I never knew there even Arcade or even Saturn port, I mean there reason why Sony put the first game in PS1 classic, this game must be great exclusive for PS1 fans than FF7, Megaman X5, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro. right?
Just goes to show how little publicity the other posts received.
Tekken 3 is the exception to the rule😉
Decent playthrough but not up to par of Viruta Fighter, Tekken, Dead Or Alive and other 3D fighters of the era.
For sure.
I wish they bring back the series Mark. I was really into it and the Anime during the 90's bro. 8^)
Anthony..
There was a Wii game in name only
I think I vaguely remember that.
I do remember the anime. Only ever saw one episode.
With the exception of Tekken, the Saturn had far superior 3-D fighting games. I mean..Soul Blade. That was rather meh, though.
My favorite 3D fighting game on the Saturn is Fighters Megamix, the Saturn really does have good 3D fighters, but Soul Blade and specially Tekken 3 are brilliant, one thing Namco and a few other companies did right was to actually increase the games replayability, you get Tekken Force and many bonuses so you don't feel it's just an arcade game in a console. Square added a RPG-like extra mode with their Tobal series, and so on. If SEGA made something similar with VF2, Fighting Vipers, added more tracks to their racing games and more modes, they would be more fondly remembered.
My brothers and I are 'Saturn' kids, but in all honesty, if I had to choose between VF2 or Tekken 3, I'd take Tekken without even thinking, but the choice would be harder if it was against Fighters Megamix, but Tekken 3 offers more than just the arcade experience.
i never cared for this series ....i liked tekken and MK and VF and SNK;s games for my fighters
Can't argue with that. Mind you, I never got on with Tekken.
Noooo....... Why did the saturn version is better than the psx version? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
For how bad the game looks, the music fuckin BOPS. The arcade version has that classic Capcom Qsound + Lucent DL-1425 combo that I love and the redbook tunes are no slouch
For how bad it looks? What other PS1 game of the same time frame looked better? Toshinden may have been bad in the game play department but graphics and music were top notch, at least until the third game came out.
@@ENiceGeo In comparison to other games launched at the time, be it on PS1, Saturn or God forbid the arcades and PC, it does look kinda crappy.
Like, Tekken 1 and 2, Soul Blade, Virtua FIghter 2, Fighting Vipers, Street Fighter EX+, FX Fighter and Star Gladiator. They all looked better
@@angelriverasantana7755 I'll grant that animation-wise Toshinden was poor but the overall game graphics is a very tough challenge to compete with.
Telkken 1 characters aren't the best looking and the backgrounds are flat 2D pictures.
Tekken 2 looks better than the first game but backgrounds are still 2D.
Soul Blade didn't debut until a year after Toshinden 2 came out, not comparable.
FX Fighter looks like a very mixed bag, though the space ship stage looked impressive.
Star Gladiator didn't come out until almost a year after Toshinden 2, not comparable.
Street Fighter EX didn't come out until almost two years after Toshinden 2. Seriously?
Virtua Fighter 2 has good looking character models but falters with the backgrounds and in some graphical abilities due to it being on Saturn.
Fighitng Vipers didn't release until almost a year after Toshinden 2, somewhat similar to VF 2 in comparison.
2:10 Yeah that's the thing, even by the standards of texture and polygon resolution this game is ugly. Not saying NA & EU did that much better bitd but JP seemed to really struggle with early 3D graphics which is funny from a region usually so good at aesthetics. In particular arcade developers like Capcom & SNK where a fighting game is the easiest low poly setup possible Ie. two character models getting most of the polygons and texture budget.🤔
Never been much of a fan of this series, kind of a glorified tech demo as a franchise imo. I do appreciate their efforts to increase screen resolution as the PS1 was no slouch in that department.
Windows ports of console games were neat bitd, usually having the kind of screen resolutions you wouldn't see in emulation till many years later. Nice consistent 4:3 512x384 or 640x480 in most cases over the odder anamorphic screen modes game consoles tended to use.
Definitely have to give credit for the SS port pushing screen resolutions that high since it's quite impressive for that era. I think that's something the SS could do better than PS1 and was definitely something you'd want to do when porting to the platform. Only caveat to that enhancement was how it was AV cable dependent Ie. unless you used S-Video or better the increased res was mostly masked on the CRT.
Honestly I remember this game being one of the least interesting fighting game on both the Saturn and PSX, both those consoles had some very good fighting games
You aren't wrong there. All the Toshinden games no matter the system are worse than what Sega and Namco offered.