Holy sheet, this podcast was like a breath of fresh air. It finally gave me permission to be the novelist I want to be. No, I haven't written a novel yet but I've been stressing about writing something that would appeal to the market, because I took mainstream advice as gospel. Turns out I would never have really wanted to read the crap that the mainstream market would direct me to write. Makes it really hard to get motivated about writing when that's the case.
And we women miss reading about manly men. Back in the 60's when my sister and I read The Lord of the Rings, we both fell in love with Strider. To us, Strider was the hero.
@@friendlyone2706 right? This stuff isn’t to women’s tastes, it’s what some women think other women will respect them for telling men to do! It’s so convoluted!
Hard disagree. While i agree there was a bit of an overcorrection in some of the messaging in 3rd wave feminism, the goal was never to disparage mascilinity, but rather to dismantle the rigid system that oppresses us all. There is a way to celebrate masculinity/femininity in a way that doesnt demean the other and put us in boxes, as we all possess both types of energy. A man shouldnt be shamed for crying and showing emotion, just as a woman should not be shamed for choosing to not to pursue motherhood.
@@friendlyone2706 if we analyze Aragorn, he actually is an incredibly healthy depiction of masculinity. He is not power hungry, and somewhat reluctantly comes into his own power. He is strong, but has a gentle heart. He is not afraid to show emotion, just as he is not afraid to slay an Orc. He places a kiss on the forehead of the dying Boromir. He is a skilled fighter, but he too is an enjoyer of the arts.He has a sense of purpose, but does not demean Eowyn to pursue her own as well.
Thomas, you’ve cracked the code on how to be an amazing writer for men-who knew all it took was a perfect blend of action, confidence, and strategically placed grunts? Your video had me ready to tackle my manuscript and a bear at the same time. If only typing made me feel as manly as watching your video did!
Had to laugh. In the 90's not a single publisher would touch my boy series, "The Incredible Worlds of Wally McDoogle" (even after amazing success of my vid series, McGee and Me). "Boy's don't read," they said. "And what do you have for boys?" I asked. "Nothing, because boys don't read." For grins I keep a contract from one publisher who wanted to change the title to "The Incredible Worlds of Wally and Molly McDoogle." Finally found one publisher who took the chance. Long story short: 28 volumes, 2.3 million copies and still going strong.
Yours is a variation of the Harry Potter story -- over 2 dozen publishers wouldn't publish it because "children don't read." Will the greedy, cowardly, too-often-seedy trend followers ever learn? I hope you stayed with your original publisher for that series. And I just checked your website. Dentist to filmmaker is an interesting goal transition shared by almost no one.
I think Y'all make a lot of valid and strong points. However I disagree with a lot of it too. There is heavy generalizing of male interests here. I would substantially disagree that most men prefer heavy info dumps and worldbuilding lore stuff. I think that is a niche subsection of certain men who really love that stuff. But for most men, they still like the character stuff primarily, that gets them emotionally attached in the first place, then they have more of an interest in the other things. Take Game of Thrones for instance, by the logic of this video it is filled with the "feminine" stuff of dealing with human relationships, character drama, etc. A lot of the dialogue is very soapy, and it is read by both men and women. Take Joe Abercrombie for instance,, I don't think he does any of what this video talks about for masculine books in terms of the hero overcoming obstacles. Most of his books are really psychological character stuff, but his books are mostly read by men as well. There is a lot more nuance to this topic that is depicted in this video, even tho I do agree with some points. :)
I have the feeling that more women read and enjoy books marketed to men than men read and enjoy books written for women. But a lot of women (me for example) also don't particularly enjoy most of the books being published and marketed to women nowadays (especially in the fantasy and sci-fi genre). Many seem very similar, have less and less worldbuilding, and sort of a juvenile writing style with a lot of emotions, but not always particularly well-written emotions.
I feel like a lot of publishers are too afraid of making readers feel stupid, and therefore many books that are published simply feel sort of dumb. I wish there was a larger variety of books being published and that big publishers dared to take a bit more risks..
@@KarlaBowdring honestly I went away and thought about this video and realized they weren't complaining about writing to men's tastes, they are complaining they don't have much in the hard sci fi range and they are upset that other books have emotions. I talked to a few men in my life and they laughed at the thought of books being devoid of emotion. Which to me just makes me think these men are just closet incels, considering they quote Jorden Peterson ... I'm probably not far wrong
@@dragonstooth4223 I wasn't able to watch this all the way through yet due to getting busy with work. My husband's favorite fantasy book series is "The Wheel of Time" which has a LOT of relationship stuff. Meanwhile, I don't read romance novels??? Because of the circles I run in, I can't really speak to general women's audience tastes in traditional publishing, which seems to be the main focus here. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt until I get to the end, even though some stuff rubbed me the wrong way, it's not good to put people down for liking things (even if it's someone like Jordan Peterson).
I'm a 66 year old man and love a lot of genres. I love C.J. Box books but then can read a Jane Austen book after it. I love Louise Penny mysteries but also John Grisham mysteries. I do love to learn things which is why my favorite read of the year is The Twenty-Ninth Day, the true story of a grizzly bear attack and the aftermath.
Mine eyes have been opened. I'm a woman, and I realized that when I write women, I write stories that would resonate more with women, and the same idea with men and male characters. Seems obvious, but having the particulars pointed out about what men like and don't was a paradigm shift for me.
Yeah this podcast hit the nail on the head. I’m a straight male reader who also loved The Boxcar Children as a kid and Jurassic Park later on. Jurassic Park (really all of Michael Crichton’s novels) didn’t have much character development. There are a lot of info dumps not only on theoretical math like they mention in the video, but also biology, genetics, and a bit on computers. It was amazing. That also gets at something I wish we men did a better job of communicating to women: when we mansplain it’s not an attempt to be condescending, or at least it’s very rare. Usually we think something we learned is cool or interesting and we want to share it with people we like. And that’s what a lot of male friendship is too. Most of my groupchats are A: “Huh saw a tweet by this think tank guy / professor / blogger/ journalist / whatever, and is this thing true?” B: [Goes into detail] C: “I disagree” [goes into detail] We also make crude jokes at each other and you win respect with a clever comeback. My guess is that this kind of male banter might’ve emerged as a way of “testing perimeter fences,” or something like that, for resilience under pressure. And being that guy that can feels masculine and like you’re in touch with yourself. I went to a lot of summer camps in high school for student council. Those camps would talk about getting in touch with emotions and being nice. Which is fine, but it felt like something was missing. The HAPPIEST memory I have from high school was the Boys State summer camp where we were tasked with building the American form of government from the ground up where we would compete with one another in daily elections to land offices, come up with legislation, debate, and so on. The program took in gifted & talented male students. We were told “you are the cream of the crop in your state” and the rules, and told to figure out the rest. It was intensely cutthroat. Those of us who got really into it probably didn’t sleep more than three or four hours a night. AND IT WAS A BLAST! I failed to win most of the offices I ran for and you know what? It was extremely valuable for me to figure out what I’m good at. I suck at back room deal making (we’d have people making deals on lending support in campaigns in exchange for appointments in legislative committees, stuff like that) and I’m very good at debating. Now I know who should I look for if I need to build a team at the office or a lot of other things that require large scale cooperation. One of the guys stabbed me in the back. And know what? Very good lesson. He later would go onto Yale and since graduating I get a bit of satisfaction whenever I one-up him in something and when he one-ups me I work harder. It makes me more competitive and has probably gotten me farther than I would otherwise.
I seek out male beta readers for my romcoms. They are always surprised to find that they like it and are invested in the stories. I wonder if more men gave books outside their usual genres a go they’d be pleasantly surprised
The Sherman tank was good strategically. Wars are usually won by a ton of good enough rather than a handful of hyper-engineered super weapons or super soldiers. Oh, dang, I just did the thing... I was also a Military History major at West Point. :)
@ There isn’t anything women do that a man can’t do better than a woman. Even mechanical birthing pods replaced the need for a uterus with captive bred sharks. Soon you won’t even be needed for that 😂 😂 😂
@ Mechanical birthing pods replaced the need for a uterus with captive bred sharks. Soon women won’t even be needed for that which is why you’re so agitated 😂 😂 😂
I’ve been getting really into books this last year. I stopped by the books section of target the other day and I think the way of kings was the only book for a male audience.
Stores have personalities reflective of the owner or the distant corporate head. If you have a local sporting goods store, see if they have a book section. If they do, bet you find different books.
I read a lot of action stories. I'm far from what you'd call a 'manly man' lol I'm a nerd who's sensitive and stuff. I also lean very liberal politically. But you're so right about these action stories. Lots of info about guns, battle plans and there's very little in the way of emotional depth. I love the masculine tales of Conan the Barbarian and Vince Flynn's Mitch Rapp. Nothing wrong with that stuff. It makes me feel 'cool' while reading. I also love reading more 'emotional stories' targeted toward women. Both styles are valid. :)
The first time I read Steinbeck's 'Cannery Row' and there's a whole chapter about Mac and the boys heading out to the mountains to catch frogs in a borrowed model t ford and they have to fix and maintain it as they go and the book gives step by step details about the car, it just struck me that the information is part of the story, it doesn't distract from it, technical facts and details are a part of men's emotional make-up, just like emotional considerations are always part of women's intellectual make-up.
This is timely. I've been seriously considering where to find an agent/publisher when 90% of them (at least the ones I've found so far) are looking ONLY for female/minority/environment-centered stories.
It is a very limited and frustrating market with specific expectations these days. It's why I chose to go the self-pub route. My characters aren't self-inserts of some group to be represented.
Totally true and can be confirmed with a cursory Google search on the subject. Men are being wholly rejected out of hand by the big pubs because A) they're men and they "already have enough of those", and B) their stories "aren't inclusive enough and don't/won't appeal to a modern audience". They'd rather double and triple down on what doesn't sell instead of what does, all because they're in a race to see how many checkboxes they can check off. In some case, like one other commenter here made, they'll insist that you rewrite the manuscript, by doing any of the following: - make protagonist a female and/or POC and/or someone with a disability - gender/race swap this and that character to make it more inclusive - add this or that plot element about gender ideology or oppression or both - one or more of your characters need to be part of the Alphabet Mafia - your book cover MUST feature a female somewhere on it who is in the work - the main antagonist must be a white male and so stereotypical that it hurts (we're talking mustache twirling, tied to a railroad track, maniacal laugh kind of stereotypical) - if your antagonist is not a white male then you will not be considered - the manuscript MUST pass the Bechdel Test - your manuscript MUST go through at least two rounds of "sensitivity reading" - there MUST be a love/relationship/feeling dynamic which occupies a large portion of the work and if only one relationship then it MUST be a same-sex/non-binary relationship - all female characters have expansive speaking roles and none are relegated to furniture or cameos - no woman or POC will ever be bested by anyone other than themselves - they will always overcome And many many more. And what you end up with is an utterly unreadable steaming pile of shit. When I started to notice and then read article after article demonstrating how this shift has occurred and it taking place as we speak, I knew that if I EVER decided to write a manuscript, it would only ever be self-published and I'll take the loss of exposure over the loss of any real interest 10 times out of 10. I'd have to hope for organic interest to swell enough that word of mouth does the selling for me. But yeah, no way in Hell would I even consider a trad pub with one of the big houses for these reasons alone. A fire burns brightest in its natural state. Throw water on it, and you have no fire. So yeah, I'll leave my fire burning, thanks.
As much as I'd like to blame publishing and the players in it, I have to blame the men themselves first. Why? Because men don't read, and when they do read, it's nonfiction. If we want more male oriented books on the shelves, we need to reach out to our fellow men and instill the habit of reading male oriented fiction. (Note: I am posting this before I watch this video)
@@Beekeeper8011 As mentioned in the program, they do read fiction, preferably heavy on the info-dump type fiction, such as The Martian (about the botanist stranded on Mars) and the Sci Fi classic Neutron Star. Remember all the experts who claimed modern children no longer read? and then came Harry Potter and kids lined up around the block to get the edition and a sequel's popularity even figured in The Devil Wears Prada?
Interesting. I'm a small press publisher, and I do have a sword-and-sorcery fantasy series written by a man for male readers which did well in Germany. At the moment the first three volumes are translated and will be published to the English-speaking market this year. Your video gives me the hope I'm on the right path.
An eye opening life changing episode! I have suffered a death (of my former writing philosophy) and been reborn! I've spent the last ten years or more trying to write to the current market. Surely, my writing will now transform into something that appeals more to me and other men. Though the market may be smal now, surely it will grow as men make a comeback in our society.
I'm a woman, and I just realized I read like a man. 😅 Perhaps because I cut my teeth on 19th century literature, pirate stories, and authors like Jules Verne, Tolstoy, and Victor Hugo. My favorite book is Melville' Whale. And I don't skip the technical chapters.
I'm with you. Which is why I'm trying to push the term "Geek Lit" to cover any genre with info dumps, which we geeks love. The fact that in the Geek World we're a minority doesn't make us less important. The great thing about Search Engine Controlled online marketing is the same book can sit on many shelves -- even Romantic Comedy can be Geek Lit.
I think you're right, I have recently begun to read sixties adventure novels. It is indeed quite a relief to find an explicitly male atmosphere. However, there is a risk of turning the difference into a caricature, which would be detrimental to men. For instance: - Enticing men not to pay attention to what is traditionally considered female, but in reality useful to both. Like appearance or hygiene or self respect in general. - Enticing men not to pay attention to what is neutral. Many daily chores seem to me neutral. - Enticing men not to pay attention to social interactions. As if we didn't have a conscience. - Enticing men to view women as innocent cuddly creatures, incapable of any agency, efficiency or brutality. In short the caricature hero would be an expert on toolbox stuff, devoid of any clue on social evolutions, the law, the economy, and moral or existential issues in general. The sort of guy who when visiting the grave of his grandparents, would only be capable of reflecting on the best way to clean it.
I really didn’t realize exactly how different men and women were until reading Warriors & Worriers. I kept offending platonic female friends. After that book a lot of things fell into place. This podcast is something I feel like I can send to female friends so hopefully they understand where I’m coming from as well. Thanks for having this conversation. Rare that I agree with everything other people say. Subscribed now.
I'm a big fan of pulp fiction from the 1930s through the 1950s The Shadow, the Spider, Doc Savage and a host of others. Kindle is a godsend for obtaining pulp fiction none of which shows up in sales. Info dumps are great IF they are done right a difficult thing for any writer. My favorite info dumping is in Sebastian Junger's nonfiction "The Perfect Storm" we read that our protagonists are drowning -- cut to Junger seamlessly cutting to a first-person account of a navy doctor who came 99 percent of the way to drowning so that the reader has a visceral experience that helps the reader identify more with the protags. Emotionally, it is like a sledgehammer to the heart. I've never seen as seamless info dumps.
Very interesting about the info dumps. I as a guy, LOVE reading about extensive lore and it makes sense. We as men are logically driven creatures. We crave information, especially about topics and stories we are interested in. The tirades against info dumps are just wrong when it comes to mention. Most of us enjoy them.
This was so rich in information and inspirational imagination for how to reach the masculine audience. This is the first video I have seen of this channel and will definitely be subscribing.
I love reading stories by men about men. There's stories about men's relationships, that brotherhood, that just touch my heart. Not the war stories, but just life in the world or fantasy, scifi. Those help women get a little insight to the male mindset.
How interesting! I love hearing about the different perspectives and things that different people or groups are drawn towards and i hadn't realized that i hadn't been getting information for such a large demographic. Your points fit very well with the feedback and suggestions for my actions sifi WIP that my boyfriend gave me and now i want to pick his brain more. It can be so isolating when culture shifts or the greater market shifts to make few or no books that you enjoy.
I published a hard science fiction novel 3 weeks ago and the feedback has been that while it's well written, it is dense and complex because of the detail about quantum physics and computer technology. This video has given me Hope that there's readers for it.
Good conversation. The thing with the Jack and Jane Reacher examples is that if you can blend the two, you can make something that can appeal to both genders and it has been done. Viewership of Terminator 1 was 50/50 across men and women because it tapped both our logical and emotional sides.
As a gay novice author writing his first book, this speaks quite a bit of truth to me personally. I love “things” and “nerding” about them, but time and time again, I'm told not to go into crazy details when writing. After writing my first draft, I picked up Slow Horses, and after reading the first two chapters, I wanted so badly to add back those details I edited out! I do feel I have written down the middle, but I am also afraid that: 1. The amount of swearing and violence will turn away female readers (my mother didn't mind it, though) 2. A drag queen character who is so rich in detail and brings so much to my protagonist’s journey will turn away straight male readers 3. The blend of growth, change, emotion, detail, lore and touching on relationships and family will turn away both. A gritty crime thriller with a promiscuous NYC enforcer with PTSD and batting criminal politics and drug warfare seems to be a damn hard book to write!
I’m a straight guy myself, and (if I may offer some unsolicited thoughts): 1. Empire of the Vampire by Jay Kristoff has a lot of swearing and it seems to do fine with female readers. Seems to have a lot of male readers, too. (Also I hear it’s one of the few books written by men with a sex scene that doesn’t offend women for being cringe and/or gross.) 3. This one surprised me. I suppose it ultimately comes down to execution. For me character development is secondary to the nerdier stuff, but it can be really good! And jumping back up to 2: 2. I think you are most likely correct, but I could imagine something like that to not as off putting based on certain factors. And again, I don’t know what genre you’re writing on so this may not apply, but as a straight male reader: •Maybe describing the drag queen from a government report. Like maybe the CIA or KGB/FSB, or MI6 or maybe the Chinese equivalent tracking the Drag Queen for some reason. Is this the drag queen version of James Bond or caught up in espionage? Are they a scientist working on a weapon? Maybe some corporate espionage? Could also work with a police report. Maybe they’re being hunted by the mafia? Or a part of a mafia themselves? Maybe there’s a gang rivalry or something and the drag queen is one in secret or got caught up somehow? Again, no idea what genre so just throwing out some ideas. I think in general presenting the information in a context that’s “badass” would bother straight male readers less. What genre are you going for?
What about people/readers who are oriented toward IDEAS??? :) If we are talking about genre fiction, the people vs. things contrast makes a lot of sense to me. But as a woman, a reader, and a writer of historical fiction, I don't fit the stereotype-I am entirely uninterested in what I call "domestic" novels (love, family, relationships), so I don't find 90% of what the big 5 are pushing out to be of ANY interest. I do think that traditional publishing has abandoned not just men, but also readers who appreciate quality writing. As someone who self-published what I'm going to call a "boys" novel with mostly male characters and political intrigue, I've struggled to figure out how to market it to straight or gay men. This was a very interesting conversation-I'm glad I discovered your channel!
I'm in my 40s. Everyone I know my age and younger is reading Korean and Japanese light novel translations or other serials on websites like wattpad. Just some food for thought.
Thank you! This was awesome. I'm a woman but also resonate with so much of what you two said and how you would like fiction to be. I sorely miss the days of Heinlein, Asimov, or even Lee Child info-dumping. That kind of long "explanation break" was a large part of the charm of those books--plus techniques, settings and details of setting (whether from a strategic, practical, or aesthetic point of view), and so on. I roll my eyes at all the relational drama --though I definitely don't mind authors focusing on friendship. But I like the relational stuff understated--less is more. A hand on a shoulder when one's friend is flagging in confidence conveys so much more than chapters and chapters of interpersonal drama.
"Didn't read until 8 or 9" Norway starts school at an early age, but does not teach reading until age 8 (Doesn't forbid, just doesn't focus on reading until then.). There's a development in the brain that often doesn't happen in boys until age 8. In America, those few boys for whom reading-ready brains happen older (age 8), are already labeled reading challenged, or possible "slower". They are self-identified dummies. In Norway, that "I'm stupid" trauma rarely happens. If you can't think about what to teach if you're not teaching reading, demand a refund from every school you attended.
I'm so thankful I was homeschooled! Government schools would have ruined me. As it was, I got an excellent education and graduated Cum Laude from University.
@@Novel-Marketing In first grade I was the worst reader until about a month before the school year ended I broke my left arm. Early '50's, no one made the connection with my almost overnight improved ability. The 60 yr old teacher told my Mom that in all her years teaching she had never seen such an extreme turn around. When over 20 years later I learned about mixed brain dominance and delayed brain maturation, I remembered. Why are such ideas still not fully applied?
@@friendlyone2706 Because, sadly, in the US, we're not really aiming for intelligent, critically thinking people, we're looking at pegs to fit into holes that are rapidly becoming obsolete ... Yike ...
@ If this were true women would avoid reading books by men, about men, “for” men in the same percentages as men avoid reading books by, about, and about”for” women. But they don’t. Women read books by men, about men, “for” men all the time and they always have,
I was so perplexed that I couldn't find a book that appealed to me as a guy so decided to write my own. Focused on YA/NA I wanted to create something that would appeal to guys who wanted some adventure to aspire to.
This has been a problem for a decade or more. I devoured classic sci-fi and fantasy when I was young, Tom Clancy and Clive Cussler. There are no books like this by major publishers anymore. Particularly, hero’s who have a proactive plan have disappeared. I rarely read novels now.
Thanks a ton for making this. I'm more than 2/3 done with my manuscript for a dark portal fantasy novel about a bereaved chemistry professor who dies fighting inside a war to avenge her family, and is then reborn to a magical world where she vows to protect those she's grown to love - only to unleash the same industrial echoes of war that ravaged her past. I intend to finish, edit, create chapter and cover art for it, and self-publish this before the end of the year. But I'm not alone since editing doesn't happen in a vacuum, and although I'm not in a position to have someone else edit my work entirely, it helps to gain editors' insight so I can refine the project myself. I feel so, enlightened from how you guys went about this discussion? I've essentially been writing a book that I'd personally love to read. It's been the perfect "grounds" for utilizing all the odd "useless" knowledge sitting in the back of my head, and considering that my protagonist takes the opportunity to go through what is essentially a 'tech-tree' over the course of a century. I grew up loving history and technology, and now I get to marry those two with compelling characters full of action and agency in a fantasy setting alongside a plot that handles themes of change which I find evermore relevant today. Although, I wouldn't dismiss most of the writing advice out there. There's no shortage of useful resources to help us improve our craft, even on RUclips. Knowing why and how any advice works to the different audiences they may target is a good way to adjust our projects to better engage with those we aim at. I'm hoping that my book is something both men and women can enjoy, and I'd personally rather not alienate either when I can distinguish what turns off both audiences and avoid such pitfalls through compromise. Not too technical or info-dumpy for women but definitely enough to drive the plot and tickle autists' interests like myself, while having just the right amount of interpersonal and intrapersonal conflict that it doesn't become overly sappy or even melodramatic for most men. My first-person protagonist hates war, but she also has the technical skill and experience to be the best at it. Sure it might be worrisome that I'm not diving so deep into one target demographic, but it's well rounded off enough for me to personally enjoy and I think that's enough - both men and women seemed to be engaged with the characters and premise amongst the ones I've spoken about it with. Again, thank you for posting this interview.
This is one of the big questions for me. The conventional wisdom in the publishing industry is that boys and men don’t read. If anything, they play video games. So, publishers won’t even look at a manuscript like Harry Potter or The Lightning Thief today (and these days Riordan’s male fans have been completely overwhelmed by the girls panting over Percy and Annabeth or writing “yaol” fanfics about Nico). But do “boys don’t read” because they don’t read? Or because the publishing industry isn’t giving them stories they like, while the game industry does? Manga are certainly selling well among teen boys (who can afford it or know how to “find it” on the high seas of the interwebs). But Marvel doesn’t seem to remember how to sell a comic to anyone under the age of thirty, and even among us older guys, they can’t sell a book unless it has a #1 on the cover (that is, to collectors looking for resale value, not because they actually want to read the story). My son has never been an enthusiastic reader. But recently he discovered that one of the anime he watches has a dozen more light novels beyond the season of the anime he’s watched, and now I find him wandering the house with his tablet in hand reading, not only that series, but the novels that were the basis for several other anime he’s liked. He hasn’t done that since the Inheritance trilogy finished.
This was a very interesting video for me as a writer. I’m tired of the female’ books being published. As a writer I’m drawn to thrillers. Tom Clancy etc. I like the pages of technical detail. I’m not interested in who loves who and who’s having sex with who. Thanks for this episode.
I am a woman and try to write stories with balanced tropes. I want to make it appealing for men and women alike by focusing on both perspectives. Well, at least I try to. 😂 I try to tell the stories from both points of view. I also have themes in there that men and women find appealing. A lot of suspense and horror elements as well as feelings and dilemmas. And I created "typical" characters. Both have their gender-typical characteristics. Men are men and women are women and I gave them strenghts and weaknesses as well. I dont turn the men in my stories into soyboys or muscle-packed simps, but they are...well,... MEN. And my women are far away from being badass, agressive and overpowered heroines. They are all normal people. I guess thats what turns most men off. Or women. That nowadays characters are far away from being realistic. It makes them less approachable. Thats why I love Stephen King books. His characters are normal people and there is a real feel to them. No matter if hes writing male or female characters. They are like people and not like an unfulfilled wish identity that so many authors seem to create. No matter what I write about - I need my characters to feel like normal people. Otherwise readers wont really care for them. You can write about pretty damn weird and crazy stuff, but if your characters are unrealisticly badass or react like no one would react, its very unlikely that people will get engaged into the story. That my two cents.
I'm with you! I'm writing historical fiction based on real people and real events, including both male and female main characters. The plot lines are fairly balanced, and there is a balance between action and emotions/relationships, given their relative importance in the overall novel. None of the characters are ideal or pure, and they are morally grey. This may disappoint people who want simple tropes and easy/pure escapism ("beach reading"). I am OK with that. Conversely, I believe the novel will be very immersive, very moving, very informative, and (most of all) readers will get value when they read it multiple times.
Men do like fiction. I write for a few YT channels - great guys run them. The listners are mostly other men. They've all helped me immensely. First book out next year!!😊😊😊
This actually explains a lot about me. I like reading the hunger games, Percy Jackson, but I can’t get into famous works like Jane Eyre or Moby Dick, etc.
I'm not entirely certain Belit, the pirate captain from Conan, needed rescuing. While the late spouse and I did read different fantasy/sci fi ... he was more hard core tech, I will admit, we also read a lot of the same stuff ... from Tolkien to Dresden to various authors I can't remember at the moment. (I'm old. ) So, some of us women also like the info stuff
Funny that, I have two drafts of novels on Wattpad. One has more views than the other, and I came to realize is because one is more focused on historical and decor descriptions, meanwhile the other has more technical descriptions because a big focus is vintage cars. Is not that is not as good as the other, is because its appeals more to men than women.
Over the weekend, I attended two panels at a con from authors who have sold tens of millions of copies of their books and translated into dozens of languages. Every author gave the same advice. Do not submit novels with info dumps or detailed descriptions that are more than a paragraph or so because first time authors will never get an agent and established authors will have those passages cut from their editors. Genre authors said you cannot get published these days if your books do not keep a fast pace because everyone has ADHD and test readers will rate those paragraphs down. One author has published 45 books and sold 50 million copies. He said the industry has changed. Write the book you want to write. But good luck getting published.
I have always heard the same advice, and followed it. And have sold very few fiction books. I prefer my info dumps woven into the story, but love books with them. Even cozy mysteries and historical romances that casually give accurate facts do better...Has the "never info dump" advice been given so often that even successful authors have become blind to components of their own success?
As a woman, when I consume entertainment that's normally for men, that's what I want. When I want something girly, I go find those things. I want both, but when they overlap it's not always as good. Additionally, as a woman writer and artist, a LOT of my peers are anti-conservative. Like 'will mention x conservative thing they hate at random for not reason' anti-conservative. I'm somewhere in the middle. It's frustrating.
As a woman, I read lots of thrillers including the Tom Clancy novels and love them. I love Daniel Silva, David Baldacci, Jeffrey Deaver, and other male thriller authors that have lots of details behind what's going on. For example Jeffrey Deaver's Burning Wire with lots of information about electricity which I loved and his Colter Shaw series, which has become a TV series, with information on how he tracks somebody and I loved it. And I love Marvel and DC movies, Tolkien's LOTRs, and I don't like Bridgerton at all.
Daughter in law loves Bridgerton. So I see bits of it and spend my time critiquing the costuming ... I was a behind the scenes/below the line sort for a while.
I buy and read numerous books at second hand stores, on Ebay, or download through my public library. I am certain none of the 100+ books I consume each year go completely uncounted by this tally system. I probably read way more than the average female reader. I know I am not unique as most of the guys I know borrow from me and rarely buy any new books.
21:00 exactly right its the reason i liked Kaladin in Stormlight first 2 books. He overcome adversity. Sadly the author decided to talk about traumas etc, now I'm non-buy-nary.
Super interesting. I've started to avoid reading books by female authors. Too many of the details don't interest me at all... Aggravating instead of captivating like Larry Correa. I feel seen as a reader👍
A lot of people are rejecting female authors for much the same reason. The stories all read the same, and they're all woke as Hell if they're not "Mommy Pr0n". YAWN.
Bummer. I'm a female writer, but I write many male characters, and they are front and center of many of my stories. I agree the market is saturated with gobbledygook. Also, most "female" humor doesn't appeal to men. I won't try to sell you on my novel or anything, but there are a ton of us indies that are writing stuff that the Big 5 won't touch. Sci-fi horror with women who are strong-willed, funny, active (to a fault, in my protag's case), and who eff up their lives because of the "right" choices they've made. Or maybe that's just me? So what would you recommend that I read? Because I like fiction written by male authors, too.
@@5Gburn I like Larry Correa, Craig Alanson , bary eisler. I think they do a great job with understanding the SPECIFIC equipment needed, what's available, what they'd rather have and why. And tactics, they come up with pretty good battle strategies and sorta discuss other tactics previously used or an idea that'd work if conditions were manipulated a little bit. My aunt will roll her eyes and fade out when I get into details of what makes a vehicle perfect for some task or environment. Just don't be my aunt, show knowledgeable understanding how the details effect the outcome. Example, line of off road trucks came to a stop because the leader had forgotten to lock in his hubs and got stuck in the very first real "puddle". So driver looks to see if he can see the exhaust. It's underwater, blowing bubbles, so he leaves it running as climbs out window onto the hood and strips down, climbs down tire into the water locks the hub, locked the other hub. Gave the guy in the truck behind him the finger for laughing. Tosses clothes in truck, climbs back in and thinks about painting Frank's (guy behind laughing) truck in 2 dig before he puts it back in 4 high to pull out, but as satisfying as that'd be there's no sense in getting frank riled up this early. So he rolls up the windows and back and forth once gets him enough momentum to climb out, because tire speed wasn't enough.
@@dylanslater1360First, thanks for the recs. I'll go look them up! I 100% agree about needing events to logic out. Even with fictional equipment and science, the reader needs to be able to think with it. (Which is how I found the math error in The Martian. Gave it a pass, though, because everything else was perfect.) Besides all that, I think what's missing in a lot of modern fiction is a way to connect the dots between events that don't play out in quick succession. Fine details aren't given, so how is the reader supposed to know that such-and-such city is also called something else, and that's important because... And there's not nearly enough relevant in-scene tracking, which is a part of what you described. Total agreement. Thanks for putting in the time to give a great example!
I read a lot of books (fiction and non) from the 1600s-1900s, they are verbose, they are filled with so much depth. And I can read them multiple times. A lot of modern writing I can go through once but struggle to repeat. A lot of it is flat (even the good stuff), which makes enthusiasm for this stuff hard. I wonder where the market is for deep and vast text that isn't obsessed with simplicity. I notice a lot of "writing advice" stresses avoiding the production of books that would not have been out of place in the late 1800s.
You might like the Sun Eater series by Christopher Ruocchio. He regularly updates on his RUclips channel (Sun Eater: youtube.com/@suneaterbooks?si=gIMD55bDXdT4zkSk) and he’s halfway or so done with the final novel. Best new recent series I’ve encountered other than The Three Body Problem trilogy by Cixin Liu (I don’t count the prequel or the fan made fourth novel).
Some of us are nerds & geeks (the terms didn't exist when I was in grade school, but I was one, a very female one (a true minority back then), but still one. After listening to this talk, I've decided that hard sci fi should be under Geek Lit, along with any other genre written with massive info dumps. We geeks love to info dump because that's what we like to read, even in romantic comedy we enjoy learning new stuff, it's like a bonus to the story. With key word activated search engines, let's make "Geek Lit" a known term! We are an underserved ultimate minority and our voices deserve to be heard! (copied from an answer I gave to another commentator. During our on line conversation, I discovered the above is why, or part of why, I find this talk the most thought provoking I've so far heard from Novel Marketing -- and that says a lot because from when I first stumbled on them, My first thought was "This guy's brilliant.")
Men love to learn. This is why I enjoy Dan Brown's books so much even though I'm not an avid reader of his genre. He always has interesting things to say in his books, and I feel like I come away a little bit more informed. That's not to say that I only read books that have info dumps, or that all info dumping is good, but strategic info dumps can definitely appeal to men. For me, the biggest turn off in a book is the woke ideology that the big 5 try to shove down readers throats. I don't agree with it, I don't enjoy reading it, so when I encounter it, it's an automatic DNF. I will say that having a lead character with a deep emotional wound can still be interesting, but it needs to be handled differently for men than it is for women. Batman is an amazing character with a very deep emotional wound. What makes it work for men though is the concept of show-don't-tell. Batman doesn't brood over his past constantly. You see instead how that past influences the decisions and actions that he takes today. The point of the story isn't Batman overcoming his deep emotional wound, it's Batman overcoming the villain and saving the city of Gotham. His deep emotional wound is only expressed in the form of dark, cool gadgets, and choice of lair, costume and intensity of speech.
I wonder if a way to bridge this gap in a novel (supposing someone wants to aim at both men and women) would be to show the utility of relationships. Then you have the problem-solving/technical aspect ("I need to have the Grand Vizier on my side, because otherwise their cavalry will wipe us out from the south) paired with the relational ("The way to get the Grand Vizier on my side is through his soft spot for X"). Would this split the difference and make everyone unhappy, or is it a potential path to someone who doesn't want to go hardcore one direction or the other?
The men in the video really simplified male/female devision putting female books largely in romance category and saying that women are drawn to emations and transitional roles. They sound like one of the countles hyper masculine podcastrs that live in their own buble. Women i know read all sorts of books with majority of men i know not reading at all or reading mostly non-fiction because it is more "informative".
That sounds like my Mom and Dad. Murder mysteries of all kinds vs History ... Well, and Penrod. Me: mysteries, sci fi, fantasy, historical ... it has words, I must read.
I read fairly regularly as well..... books that were published 15+ years ago, including classic lit. I still look for good modern stories, but its really a mixed bag.
I think video games and p* absorb their attention and publishers don’t publish what they like, many authors of books popular among men published in the last 20 years say most publishers rejected them.
Read Bill Meyers comment above. Most publishers rejected his series about a boy because "boys don't read." Finally found a publisher, sold over 2 million copies. He was NOT an unknown at the time, had a proven track record, but still had trouble getting even one taker.
The paradox isn’t about one specific industry and region, it’s that generally as equality and freedom of choice increases, so does the (limited!) degree to which people gravitate toward “gender coded” careers. There is another paradox, similar, where visible, social, gender expression becomes more pronounced as a society is freed from subsistence and people get choices other than “woman in home, man in fields”.
@@WR3CK4G3firstandonly Let's not move the goalposts. The video creator specifically listed nursing as an example. Also engineering. The thing is, if you look at those two fields, you'll find the opposite of what he's saying is true. Compared to 50 years ago, nursing and engineering are much less gender coded now.
@@ComedorDelricothe studies the host was referring to are in specifically the most egalitarian countries, which includes Scandinavian countries but not necessarily countries like the US .
Most men love romance in a book. Just not drama. Try to avoid “misunderstandings” or the “liar found out” or other tropes like this. My favorite romance in books is when the characters are philosophically opposed which brings the conflict. Also, it is every man’s dream to be a hero and rescue the fair maiden. Damsels in distress are not bad as long as you make the damsel worth saving.
You're wrong. Our mothers tell us that when we're teens, warning us those books do not prepare for real dating. So far, not one generation has listened until too late... 🙂
Thing is people used to say this, but after a while we stopped and became more accepting of what women enjoy. The problem is that now that women dominate the book industry they're not accepting what we are into
@@friendlyone2706 Exactly! To be even more frank, reading is for pleasure and pleasure sells. People need enjoyment in their life. Only the most miserable fanatic would believe otherwise!
I'm a massive fantasy reader, and a lot of books nowadays want to empower women and show them to be better than men. However, the only way they do this is to make the men appear weak and stupid. It's insulting and unrealistic. So my main reasons are these: - Writers not knowing how to make strong female characters without making the men weak, just so they can look strong comparatively. - Writers not knowing what makes a strong character in general, with no character development. Women can be strong characters without the men having to appear weak. Look at Éowyn from Lord of the Rings. Look at any woman written by Hayao Miyazaki - Nausicaa, Princess Mononoke, or Spirited away.
While I appreciate your discussion and insights, it would have been nice if you stepped out of the dichotomy of "male stories/readers" vs. "female stories/readers". There is a whole universe of stories that span the interests and values of both male and female readers, and they may offer "affordances" for different readers to value and appreciate different things. As evidence, I offer the Christian New Testament. I think the evidence is strong that both men and women, over many for many centuries, have found the stories and storytelling in the New Testament to be interesting and compelling. Same could probably be said for stories in other religious or spiritual traditions, and even folk tales. I also think some of your points were too simplistic. You talk a lot about how men appreciate and talk about sports (formations, equipment, plays) but you leave out how they experience the game while watching in a group. Fans watching a game at a sports bar will spontaneously "high five" with strangers when the home team scores, which is a very emotional, very relational dynamic. Also, notice how sports broadcasters interview players after the game. They usually ask "feeling" questions rather than technical+tactical questions. "How did it feel when ...?" and "How does this victory rank in your career?" Last, even in the "pure masculine" stories, emotions and relations are vital, even if they are derived from the action or the "facts of the case". The "hero" will fall apart pretty quickly if his emotional support system collapses along with his sense of self.
I came in hoping for realistic advice on what the current male readership is looking for. Instead I got some awkward political/manosphere talking points.
Apparently, I'm an alien 😂 As a woman, I love the nuclear bomb example. I find Tom Clancy books boring because of the detailed description, and I'm thinking get to the point. I would skip those pages.
Conan is not a generation older than LotR. First, Tolkien was older than Howard (born 1892 vs. 1906). While LotR was begun after Howard's death (Howard dies in 1936 while Tolkien began "The New Hobbit" in 1937) the larger legendarium that LotR is part of first dates to 1917. Even if we isolate LotR it's publication was a mere 18 years after Howard's death. If anything, LotR, with so much rooted in pre-WW1 England and Tolkien's experience in the trenches, is from a generation before Conan. But I think the core differences are not of generation per se but place as well as time. A man who came of age in WW1 England is going to write very different tales from a man who came of age in 1920s Texas.
Now I understand why a lot of writing advice doesn't resonate with me. Great interview!
Holy sheet, this podcast was like a breath of fresh air. It finally gave me permission to be the novelist I want to be. No, I haven't written a novel yet but I've been stressing about writing something that would appeal to the market, because I took mainstream advice as gospel. Turns out I would never have really wanted to read the crap that the mainstream market would direct me to write. Makes it really hard to get motivated about writing when that's the case.
An important conversation in an age where maleness and masculinity are disparaged.
And we women miss reading about manly men. Back in the 60's when my sister and I read The Lord of the Rings, we both fell in love with Strider. To us, Strider was the hero.
@@friendlyone2706 right? This stuff isn’t to women’s tastes, it’s what some women think other women will respect them for telling men to do! It’s so convoluted!
Hard disagree. While i agree there was a bit of an overcorrection in some of the messaging in 3rd wave feminism, the goal was never to disparage mascilinity, but rather to dismantle the rigid system that oppresses us all. There is a way to celebrate masculinity/femininity in a way that doesnt demean the other and put us in boxes, as we all possess both types of energy. A man shouldnt be shamed for crying and showing emotion, just as a woman should not be shamed for choosing to not to pursue motherhood.
@@friendlyone2706 if we analyze Aragorn, he actually is an incredibly healthy depiction of masculinity. He is not power hungry, and somewhat reluctantly comes into his own power. He is strong, but has a gentle heart. He is not afraid to show emotion, just as he is not afraid to slay an Orc. He places a kiss on the forehead of the dying Boromir. He is a skilled fighter, but he too is an enjoyer of the arts.He has a sense of purpose, but does not demean Eowyn to pursue her own as well.
@@bellastrange7477 And my teenage heart, throbbing deep within this septuagenarian body, is still in love with him. You summarized why, perfectly.
Thomas, you’ve cracked the code on how to be an amazing writer for men-who knew all it took was a perfect blend of action, confidence, and strategically placed grunts? Your video had me ready to tackle my manuscript and a bear at the same time. If only typing made me feel as manly as watching your video did!
Had to laugh. In the 90's not a single publisher would touch my boy series, "The Incredible Worlds of Wally McDoogle" (even after amazing success of my vid series, McGee and Me). "Boy's don't read," they said. "And what do you have for boys?" I asked. "Nothing, because boys don't read." For grins I keep a contract from one publisher who wanted to change the title to "The Incredible Worlds of Wally and Molly McDoogle." Finally found one publisher who took the chance. Long story short: 28 volumes, 2.3 million copies and still going strong.
Yours is a variation of the Harry Potter story -- over 2 dozen publishers wouldn't publish it because "children don't read." Will the greedy, cowardly, too-often-seedy trend followers ever learn?
I hope you stayed with your original publisher for that series.
And I just checked your website. Dentist to filmmaker is an interesting goal transition shared by almost no one.
Does that mean you’re a millionaire?
@@dcle944 Well at least we got my little track home in SoCal paid off.
We used to watch McGee and Me in Sunday School - great series!
I loved this series growing up! Honestly I think about the hot air balloon one about once per week, and the lesson about the gauges.
I think Y'all make a lot of valid and strong points. However I disagree with a lot of it too. There is heavy generalizing of male interests here. I would substantially disagree that most men prefer heavy info dumps and worldbuilding lore stuff. I think that is a niche subsection of certain men who really love that stuff.
But for most men, they still like the character stuff primarily, that gets them emotionally attached in the first place, then they have more of an interest in the other things. Take Game of Thrones for instance, by the logic of this video it is filled with the "feminine" stuff of dealing with human relationships, character drama, etc. A lot of the dialogue is very soapy, and it is read by both men and women.
Take Joe Abercrombie for instance,, I don't think he does any of what this video talks about for masculine books in terms of the hero overcoming obstacles. Most of his books are really psychological character stuff, but his books are mostly read by men as well.
There is a lot more nuance to this topic that is depicted in this video, even tho I do agree with some points. :)
I have the feeling that more women read and enjoy books marketed to men than men read and enjoy books written for women. But a lot of women (me for example) also don't particularly enjoy most of the books being published and marketed to women nowadays (especially in the fantasy and sci-fi genre). Many seem very similar, have less and less worldbuilding, and sort of a juvenile writing style with a lot of emotions, but not always particularly well-written emotions.
I feel like a lot of publishers are too afraid of making readers feel stupid, and therefore many books that are published simply feel sort of dumb. I wish there was a larger variety of books being published and that big publishers dared to take a bit more risks..
Children and teens are motivated by emotion. Adults temper their reactions with facts, especially those facts tempered by life experience.
For real. Where's my hard sci-fi with manned robot fights (i.e. VOTOMS)?
@@KarlaBowdring honestly I went away and thought about this video and realized they weren't complaining about writing to men's tastes, they are complaining they don't have much in the hard sci fi range and they are upset that other books have emotions.
I talked to a few men in my life and they laughed at the thought of books being devoid of emotion. Which to me just makes me think these men are just closet incels, considering they quote Jorden Peterson ... I'm probably not far wrong
@@dragonstooth4223 I wasn't able to watch this all the way through yet due to getting busy with work. My husband's favorite fantasy book series is "The Wheel of Time" which has a LOT of relationship stuff. Meanwhile, I don't read romance novels??? Because of the circles I run in, I can't really speak to general women's audience tastes in traditional publishing, which seems to be the main focus here. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt until I get to the end, even though some stuff rubbed me the wrong way, it's not good to put people down for liking things (even if it's someone like Jordan Peterson).
I'm a 66 year old man and love a lot of genres. I love C.J. Box books but then can read a Jane Austen book after it. I love Louise Penny mysteries but also John Grisham mysteries. I do love to learn things which is why my favorite read of the year is The Twenty-Ninth Day, the true story of a grizzly bear attack and the aftermath.
Mine eyes have been opened. I'm a woman, and I realized that when I write women, I write stories that would resonate more with women, and the same idea with men and male characters. Seems obvious, but having the particulars pointed out about what men like and don't was a paradigm shift for me.
Yeah this podcast hit the nail on the head. I’m a straight male reader who also loved The Boxcar Children as a kid and Jurassic Park later on.
Jurassic Park (really all of Michael Crichton’s novels) didn’t have much character development. There are a lot of info dumps not only on theoretical math like they mention in the video, but also biology, genetics, and a bit on computers. It was amazing.
That also gets at something I wish we men did a better job of communicating to women: when we mansplain it’s not an attempt to be condescending, or at least it’s very rare. Usually we think something we learned is cool or interesting and we want to share it with people we like. And that’s what a lot of male friendship is too. Most of my groupchats are
A: “Huh saw a tweet by this think tank guy / professor / blogger/ journalist / whatever, and is this thing true?”
B: [Goes into detail]
C: “I disagree” [goes into detail]
We also make crude jokes at each other and you win respect with a clever comeback. My guess is that this kind of male banter might’ve emerged as a way of “testing perimeter fences,” or something like that, for resilience under pressure.
And being that guy that can feels masculine and like you’re in touch with yourself.
I went to a lot of summer camps in high school for student council. Those camps would talk about getting in touch with emotions and being nice. Which is fine, but it felt like something was missing.
The HAPPIEST memory I have from high school was the Boys State summer camp where we were tasked with building the American form of government from the ground up where we would compete with one another in daily elections to land offices, come up with legislation, debate, and so on.
The program took in gifted & talented male students. We were told “you are the cream of the crop in your state” and the rules, and told to figure out the rest.
It was intensely cutthroat. Those of us who got really into it probably didn’t sleep more than three or four hours a night.
AND IT WAS A BLAST!
I failed to win most of the offices I ran for and you know what? It was extremely valuable for me to figure out what I’m good at. I suck at back room deal making (we’d have people making deals on lending support in campaigns in exchange for appointments in legislative committees, stuff like that) and I’m very good at debating. Now I know who should I look for if I need to build a team at the office or a lot of other things that require large scale cooperation.
One of the guys stabbed me in the back. And know what? Very good lesson. He later would go onto Yale and since graduating I get a bit of satisfaction whenever I one-up him in something and when he one-ups me I work harder.
It makes me more competitive and has probably gotten me farther than I would otherwise.
I seek out male beta readers for my romcoms. They are always surprised to find that they like it and are invested in the stories. I wonder if more men gave books outside their usual genres a go they’d be pleasantly surprised
This was a great conversation! Took a lot of notes, thank you. This topic hits very close to home 🥊
The Sherman tank was good strategically. Wars are usually won by a ton of good enough rather than a handful of hyper-engineered super weapons or super soldiers.
Oh, dang, I just did the thing...
I was also a Military History major at West Point. :)
Please stop doing the thing. No one cares. That's one of the many reasons women are better at writing than men
@ There isn’t anything women do that a man can’t do better than a woman. Even mechanical birthing pods replaced the need for a uterus with captive bred sharks. Soon you won’t even be needed for that 😂 😂 😂
@ Mechanical birthing pods replaced the need for a uterus with captive bred sharks. Soon women won’t even be needed for that which is why you’re so agitated 😂 😂 😂
I’ve been getting really into books this last year. I stopped by the books section of target the other day and I think the way of kings was the only book for a male audience.
Stores have personalities reflective of the owner or the distant corporate head. If you have a local sporting goods store, see if they have a book section. If they do, bet you find different books.
I read a lot of action stories. I'm far from what you'd call a 'manly man' lol I'm a nerd who's sensitive and stuff. I also lean very liberal politically. But you're so right about these action stories. Lots of info about guns, battle plans and there's very little in the way of emotional depth. I love the masculine tales of Conan the Barbarian and Vince Flynn's Mitch Rapp. Nothing wrong with that stuff. It makes me feel 'cool' while reading.
I also love reading more 'emotional stories' targeted toward women. Both styles are valid. :)
The first time I read Steinbeck's 'Cannery Row' and there's a whole chapter about Mac and the boys heading out to the mountains to catch frogs in a borrowed model t ford and they have to fix and maintain it as they go and the book gives step by step details about the car, it just struck me that the information is part of the story, it doesn't distract from it, technical facts and details are a part of men's emotional make-up, just like emotional considerations are always part of women's intellectual make-up.
This is timely. I've been seriously considering where to find an agent/publisher when 90% of them (at least the ones I've found so far) are looking ONLY for female/minority/environment-centered stories.
And sometimes demanding a good story be rewritten for THAT token victim.
It is a very limited and frustrating market with specific expectations these days. It's why I chose to go the self-pub route. My characters aren't self-inserts of some group to be represented.
Totally true and can be confirmed with a cursory Google search on the subject. Men are being wholly rejected out of hand by the big pubs because A) they're men and they "already have enough of those", and B) their stories "aren't inclusive enough and don't/won't appeal to a modern audience". They'd rather double and triple down on what doesn't sell instead of what does, all because they're in a race to see how many checkboxes they can check off. In some case, like one other commenter here made, they'll insist that you rewrite the manuscript, by doing any of the following:
- make protagonist a female and/or POC and/or someone with a disability
- gender/race swap this and that character to make it more inclusive
- add this or that plot element about gender ideology or oppression or both
- one or more of your characters need to be part of the Alphabet Mafia
- your book cover MUST feature a female somewhere on it who is in the work
- the main antagonist must be a white male and so stereotypical that it hurts (we're talking mustache twirling, tied to a railroad track, maniacal laugh kind of stereotypical) - if your antagonist is not a white male then you will not be considered
- the manuscript MUST pass the Bechdel Test
- your manuscript MUST go through at least two rounds of "sensitivity reading"
- there MUST be a love/relationship/feeling dynamic which occupies a large portion of the work and if only one relationship then it MUST be a same-sex/non-binary relationship
- all female characters have expansive speaking roles and none are relegated to furniture or cameos
- no woman or POC will ever be bested by anyone other than themselves - they will always overcome
And many many more.
And what you end up with is an utterly unreadable steaming pile of shit. When I started to notice and then read article after article demonstrating how this shift has occurred and it taking place as we speak, I knew that if I EVER decided to write a manuscript, it would only ever be self-published and I'll take the loss of exposure over the loss of any real interest 10 times out of 10. I'd have to hope for organic interest to swell enough that word of mouth does the selling for me. But yeah, no way in Hell would I even consider a trad pub with one of the big houses for these reasons alone. A fire burns brightest in its natural state. Throw water on it, and you have no fire. So yeah, I'll leave my fire burning, thanks.
As much as I'd like to blame publishing and the players in it, I have to blame the men themselves first.
Why?
Because men don't read, and when they do read, it's nonfiction.
If we want more male oriented books on the shelves, we need to reach out to our fellow men and instill the habit of reading male oriented fiction.
(Note: I am posting this before I watch this video)
@@Beekeeper8011 As mentioned in the program, they do read fiction, preferably heavy on the info-dump type fiction, such as The Martian (about the botanist stranded on Mars) and the Sci Fi classic Neutron Star.
Remember all the experts who claimed modern children no longer read? and then came Harry Potter and kids lined up around the block to get the edition and a sequel's popularity even figured in The Devil Wears Prada?
Interesting. I'm a small press publisher, and I do have a sword-and-sorcery fantasy series written by a man for male readers which did well in Germany. At the moment the first three volumes are translated and will be published to the English-speaking market this year. Your video gives me the hope I'm on the right path.
An eye opening life changing episode! I have suffered a death (of my former writing philosophy) and been reborn! I've spent the last ten years or more trying to write to the current market. Surely, my writing will now transform into something that appeals more to me and other men. Though the market may be smal now, surely it will grow as men make a comeback in our society.
I'm a woman, and I just realized I read like a man. 😅 Perhaps because I cut my teeth on 19th century literature, pirate stories, and authors like Jules Verne, Tolstoy, and Victor Hugo. My favorite book is Melville' Whale. And I don't skip the technical chapters.
This is where generalising about gender is not appropriate unless they are specified as generalisations, as there outliers
I'm with you. Which is why I'm trying to push the term "Geek Lit" to cover any genre with info dumps, which we geeks love. The fact that in the Geek World we're a minority doesn't make us less important. The great thing about Search Engine Controlled online marketing is the same book can sit on many shelves -- even Romantic Comedy can be Geek Lit.
I think you're right, I have recently begun to read sixties adventure novels. It is indeed quite a relief to find an explicitly male atmosphere.
However, there is a risk of turning the difference into a caricature, which would be detrimental to men. For instance:
- Enticing men not to pay attention to what is traditionally considered female, but in reality useful to both. Like appearance or hygiene or self respect in general.
- Enticing men not to pay attention to what is neutral. Many daily chores seem to me neutral.
- Enticing men not to pay attention to social interactions. As if we didn't have a conscience.
- Enticing men to view women as innocent cuddly creatures, incapable of any agency, efficiency or brutality.
In short the caricature hero would be an expert on toolbox stuff, devoid of any clue on social evolutions, the law, the economy, and moral or existential issues in general. The sort of guy who when visiting the grave of his grandparents, would only be capable of reflecting on the best way to clean it.
Great, great talk. More. More.
I really didn’t realize exactly how different men and women were until reading Warriors & Worriers. I kept offending platonic female friends. After that book a lot of things fell into place.
This podcast is something I feel like I can send to female friends so hopefully they understand where I’m coming from as well.
Thanks for having this conversation. Rare that I agree with everything other people say. Subscribed now.
Man (pun), what a great podcast interview!!!
A simply excellent conversation. Thank you, gentlemen!
Ooh my! We're in minute 9 and I have not stopped laughing. Let me see what comes next in this very exciting discussion
I'm a big fan of pulp fiction from the 1930s through the 1950s The Shadow, the Spider, Doc Savage and a host of others. Kindle is a godsend for obtaining pulp fiction none of which shows up in sales. Info dumps are great IF they are done right a difficult thing for any writer. My favorite info dumping is in Sebastian Junger's nonfiction "The Perfect Storm" we read that our protagonists are drowning -- cut to Junger seamlessly cutting to a first-person account of a navy doctor who came 99 percent of the way to drowning so that the reader has a visceral experience that helps the reader identify more with the protags. Emotionally, it is like a sledgehammer to the heart. I've never seen as seamless info dumps.
Very interesting about the info dumps. I as a guy, LOVE reading about extensive lore and it makes sense. We as men are logically driven creatures. We crave information, especially about topics and stories we are interested in. The tirades against info dumps are just wrong when it comes to mention. Most of us enjoy them.
This was so rich in information and inspirational imagination for how to reach the masculine audience. This is the first video I have seen of this channel and will definitely be subscribing.
The recent Napoleon movie was a perfect example of this. A great opportunity to dig into his battle tactics, but we got his love life instead.
Makes me quite glad the Patton movie was made decades ago and we got a lot of the soldier.
Fabulous interview! This was so helpful for me as I have been struggling with this very issue. Thank you!
This was a great podcast! I love info dumping but have avoided it - mayhaps I shall just start in my fantasy in a creative way 🎉
I love reading stories by men about men. There's stories about men's relationships, that brotherhood, that just touch my heart. Not the war stories, but just life in the world or fantasy, scifi. Those help women get a little insight to the male mindset.
How interesting! I love hearing about the different perspectives and things that different people or groups are drawn towards and i hadn't realized that i hadn't been getting information for such a large demographic.
Your points fit very well with the feedback and suggestions for my actions sifi WIP that my boyfriend gave me and now i want to pick his brain more. It can be so isolating when culture shifts or the greater market shifts to make few or no books that you enjoy.
I published a hard science fiction novel 3 weeks ago and the feedback has been that while it's well written, it is dense and complex because of the detail about quantum physics and computer technology. This video has given me Hope that there's readers for it.
Good conversation. The thing with the Jack and Jane Reacher examples is that if you can blend the two, you can make something that can appeal to both genders and it has been done. Viewership of Terminator 1 was 50/50 across men and women because it tapped both our logical and emotional sides.
"War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner."
You had me at "men and women are different."
Ha. Yep
As a gay novice author writing his first book, this speaks quite a bit of truth to me personally. I love “things” and “nerding” about them, but time and time again, I'm told not to go into crazy details when writing. After writing my first draft, I picked up Slow Horses, and after reading the first two chapters, I wanted so badly to add back those details I edited out!
I do feel I have written down the middle, but I am also afraid that:
1. The amount of swearing and violence will turn away female readers (my mother didn't mind it, though)
2. A drag queen character who is so rich in detail and brings so much to my protagonist’s journey will turn away straight male readers
3. The blend of growth, change, emotion, detail, lore and touching on relationships and family will turn away both.
A gritty crime thriller with a promiscuous NYC enforcer with PTSD and batting criminal politics and drug warfare seems to be a damn hard book to write!
The only writing advice I live by is write what YOU want, not somebody else wants
I’m a straight guy myself, and (if I may offer some unsolicited thoughts):
1. Empire of the Vampire by Jay Kristoff has a lot of swearing and it seems to do fine with female readers. Seems to have a lot of male readers, too. (Also I hear it’s one of the few books written by men with a sex scene that doesn’t offend women for being cringe and/or gross.)
3. This one surprised me. I suppose it ultimately comes down to execution. For me character development is secondary to the nerdier stuff, but it can be really good!
And jumping back up to 2:
2. I think you are most likely correct, but I could imagine something like that to not as off putting based on certain factors. And again, I don’t know what genre you’re writing on so this may not apply, but as a straight male reader:
•Maybe describing the drag queen from a government report. Like maybe the CIA or KGB/FSB, or MI6 or maybe the Chinese equivalent tracking the Drag Queen for some reason. Is this the drag queen version of James Bond or caught up in espionage? Are they a scientist working on a weapon? Maybe some corporate espionage? Could also work with a police report. Maybe they’re being hunted by the mafia? Or a part of a mafia themselves? Maybe there’s a gang rivalry or something and the drag queen is one in secret or got caught up somehow?
Again, no idea what genre so just throwing out some ideas. I think in general presenting the information in a context that’s “badass” would bother straight male readers less.
What genre are you going for?
Sounds interesting ... of course, I'm not male which may not be that helpful, but I think you're gonna find an audience without too much trouble.
56:50 Also sounds like a great way to segment the market; write a novel about every interest, going into detail about said interest.
Actually Harry Potter is big because it balances between action and relationship. So there’s a way to mix it.
"relationship" is misleading, it's heavy on _friendship_ which is way more universal
What about people/readers who are oriented toward IDEAS??? :)
If we are talking about genre fiction, the people vs. things contrast makes a lot of sense to me. But as a woman, a reader, and a writer of historical fiction, I don't fit the stereotype-I am entirely uninterested in what I call "domestic" novels (love, family, relationships), so I don't find 90% of what the big 5 are pushing out to be of ANY interest.
I do think that traditional publishing has abandoned not just men, but also readers who appreciate quality writing. As someone who self-published what I'm going to call a "boys" novel with mostly male characters and political intrigue, I've struggled to figure out how to market it to straight or gay men. This was a very interesting conversation-I'm glad I discovered your channel!
I'm in my 40s. Everyone I know my age and younger is reading Korean and Japanese light novel translations or other serials on websites like wattpad. Just some food for thought.
Great interview/discussion.
wow, that was really refreshing (subbed)
I thought of Jurrasic Park too. Full of info dumps and it was great.
Oh, this discussion sounds awesome, and I'm only 5 minutes in!
Thank you! This was awesome. I'm a woman but also resonate with so much of what you two said and how you would like fiction to be. I sorely miss the days of Heinlein, Asimov, or even Lee Child info-dumping. That kind of long "explanation break" was a large part of the charm of those books--plus techniques, settings and details of setting (whether from a strategic, practical, or aesthetic point of view), and so on. I roll my eyes at all the relational drama --though I definitely don't mind authors focusing on friendship. But I like the relational stuff understated--less is more. A hand on a shoulder when one's friend is flagging in confidence conveys so much more than chapters and chapters of interpersonal drama.
"Didn't read until 8 or 9"
Norway starts school at an early age, but does not teach reading until age 8 (Doesn't forbid, just doesn't focus on reading until then.). There's a development in the brain that often doesn't happen in boys until age 8. In America, those few boys for whom reading-ready brains happen older (age 8), are already labeled reading challenged, or possible "slower". They are self-identified dummies.
In Norway, that "I'm stupid" trauma rarely happens.
If you can't think about what to teach if you're not teaching reading, demand a refund from every school you attended.
I'm so thankful I was homeschooled! Government schools would have ruined me. As it was, I got an excellent education and graduated Cum Laude from University.
@@Novel-Marketing In first grade I was the worst reader until about a month before the school year ended I broke my left arm. Early '50's, no one made the connection with my almost overnight improved ability. The 60 yr old teacher told my Mom that in all her years teaching she had never seen such an extreme turn around. When over 20 years later I learned about mixed brain dominance and delayed brain maturation, I remembered. Why are such ideas still not fully applied?
Wow, that is so interesting!
@@friendlyone2706 Because, sadly, in the US, we're not really aiming for intelligent, critically thinking people, we're looking at pegs to fit into holes that are rapidly becoming obsolete ... Yike ...
About 43:40 "Men want to feel like a winner"
All people want to feel like winners -- but we do not all define winning the same.
Thank goodness neither men nor women are defined in the way these “geniuses” describe.
That's disingenuous. Obviously there are exceptions, but as a general rule what they're saying about market interest is true
@ If this were true women would avoid reading books by men, about men, “for” men in the same percentages as men avoid reading books by, about, and about”for” women. But they don’t. Women read books by men, about men, “for” men all the time and they always have,
I was so perplexed that I couldn't find a book that appealed to me as a guy so decided to write my own.
Focused on YA/NA I wanted to create something that would appeal to guys who wanted some adventure to aspire to.
This has been a problem for a decade or more. I devoured classic sci-fi and fantasy when I was young, Tom Clancy and Clive Cussler. There are no books like this by major publishers anymore. Particularly, hero’s who have a proactive plan have disappeared. I rarely read novels now.
Thanks a ton for making this. I'm more than 2/3 done with my manuscript for a dark portal fantasy novel about a bereaved chemistry professor who dies fighting inside a war to avenge her family, and is then reborn to a magical world where she vows to protect those she's grown to love - only to unleash the same industrial echoes of war that ravaged her past. I intend to finish, edit, create chapter and cover art for it, and self-publish this before the end of the year. But I'm not alone since editing doesn't happen in a vacuum, and although I'm not in a position to have someone else edit my work entirely, it helps to gain editors' insight so I can refine the project myself.
I feel so, enlightened from how you guys went about this discussion? I've essentially been writing a book that I'd personally love to read. It's been the perfect "grounds" for utilizing all the odd "useless" knowledge sitting in the back of my head, and considering that my protagonist takes the opportunity to go through what is essentially a 'tech-tree' over the course of a century. I grew up loving history and technology, and now I get to marry those two with compelling characters full of action and agency in a fantasy setting alongside a plot that handles themes of change which I find evermore relevant today.
Although, I wouldn't dismiss most of the writing advice out there. There's no shortage of useful resources to help us improve our craft, even on RUclips. Knowing why and how any advice works to the different audiences they may target is a good way to adjust our projects to better engage with those we aim at. I'm hoping that my book is something both men and women can enjoy, and I'd personally rather not alienate either when I can distinguish what turns off both audiences and avoid such pitfalls through compromise. Not too technical or info-dumpy for women but definitely enough to drive the plot and tickle autists' interests like myself, while having just the right amount of interpersonal and intrapersonal conflict that it doesn't become overly sappy or even melodramatic for most men. My first-person protagonist hates war, but she also has the technical skill and experience to be the best at it. Sure it might be worrisome that I'm not diving so deep into one target demographic, but it's well rounded off enough for me to personally enjoy and I think that's enough - both men and women seemed to be engaged with the characters and premise amongst the ones I've spoken about it with.
Again, thank you for posting this interview.
This is one of the big questions for me. The conventional wisdom in the publishing industry is that boys and men don’t read. If anything, they play video games. So, publishers won’t even look at a manuscript like Harry Potter or The Lightning Thief today (and these days Riordan’s male fans have been completely overwhelmed by the girls panting over Percy and Annabeth or writing “yaol” fanfics about Nico).
But do “boys don’t read” because they don’t read? Or because the publishing industry isn’t giving them stories they like, while the game industry does?
Manga are certainly selling well among teen boys (who can afford it or know how to “find it” on the high seas of the interwebs). But Marvel doesn’t seem to remember how to sell a comic to anyone under the age of thirty, and even among us older guys, they can’t sell a book unless it has a #1 on the cover (that is, to collectors looking for resale value, not because they actually want to read the story).
My son has never been an enthusiastic reader. But recently he discovered that one of the anime he watches has a dozen more light novels beyond the season of the anime he’s watched, and now I find him wandering the house with his tablet in hand reading, not only that series, but the novels that were the basis for several other anime he’s liked. He hasn’t done that since the Inheritance trilogy finished.
This was brilliant. More please :)
This was a very interesting video for me as a writer. I’m tired of the female’ books being published. As a writer I’m drawn to thrillers. Tom Clancy etc. I like the pages of technical detail. I’m not interested in who loves who and who’s having sex with who. Thanks for this episode.
I am a woman and try to write stories with balanced tropes. I want to make it appealing for men and women alike by focusing on both perspectives. Well, at least I try to. 😂
I try to tell the stories from both points of view. I also have themes in there that men and women find appealing. A lot of suspense and horror elements as well as feelings and dilemmas.
And I created "typical" characters. Both have their gender-typical characteristics. Men are men and women are women and I gave them strenghts and weaknesses as well. I dont turn the men in my stories into soyboys or muscle-packed simps, but they are...well,... MEN.
And my women are far away from being badass, agressive and overpowered heroines.
They are all normal people.
I guess thats what turns most men off. Or women.
That nowadays characters are far away from being realistic. It makes them less approachable.
Thats why I love Stephen King books. His characters are normal people and there is a real feel to them. No matter if hes writing male or female characters. They are like people and not like an unfulfilled wish identity that so many authors seem to create.
No matter what I write about - I need my characters to feel like normal people. Otherwise readers wont really care for them. You can write about pretty damn weird and crazy stuff, but if your characters are unrealisticly badass or react like no one would react, its very unlikely that people will get engaged into the story.
That my two cents.
I'm with you! I'm writing historical fiction based on real people and real events, including both male and female main characters. The plot lines are fairly balanced, and there is a balance between action and emotions/relationships, given their relative importance in the overall novel. None of the characters are ideal or pure, and they are morally grey. This may disappoint people who want simple tropes and easy/pure escapism ("beach reading"). I am OK with that. Conversely, I believe the novel will be very immersive, very moving, very informative, and (most of all) readers will get value when they read it multiple times.
Men do like fiction. I write for a few YT channels - great guys run them. The listners are mostly other men. They've all helped me immensely. First book out next year!!😊😊😊
As a male romantacy author, this video hits home.
This actually explains a lot about me. I like reading the hunger games, Percy Jackson, but I can’t get into famous works like Jane Eyre or Moby Dick, etc.
Classic horror novels, Grimdark fantasy novels, classic indie comics before the year 2000 and seinen manga is where the good stuff for men is imo.
I'm not entirely certain Belit, the pirate captain from Conan, needed rescuing. While the late spouse and I did read different fantasy/sci fi ... he was more hard core tech, I will admit, we also read a lot of the same stuff ... from Tolkien to Dresden to various authors I can't remember at the moment. (I'm old. ) So, some of us women also like the info stuff
Funny that, I have two drafts of novels on Wattpad. One has more views than the other, and I came to realize is because one is more focused on historical and decor descriptions, meanwhile the other has more technical descriptions because a big focus is vintage cars. Is not that is not as good as the other, is because its appeals more to men than women.
Over the weekend, I attended two panels at a con from authors who have sold tens of millions of copies of their books and translated into dozens of languages. Every author gave the same advice. Do not submit novels with info dumps or detailed descriptions that are more than a paragraph or so because first time authors will never get an agent and established authors will have those passages cut from their editors. Genre authors said you cannot get published these days if your books do not keep a fast pace because everyone has ADHD and test readers will rate those paragraphs down. One author has published 45 books and sold 50 million copies. He said the industry has changed. Write the book you want to write. But good luck getting published.
I’m with you. I mostly read indie titles, horror, and LitRPGs these days.
I have always heard the same advice, and followed it. And have sold very few fiction books. I prefer my info dumps woven into the story, but love books with them. Even cozy mysteries and historical romances that casually give accurate facts do better...Has the "never info dump" advice been given so often that even successful authors have become blind to components of their own success?
As a woman, when I consume entertainment that's normally for men, that's what I want. When I want something girly, I go find those things. I want both, but when they overlap it's not always as good. Additionally, as a woman writer and artist, a LOT of my peers are anti-conservative. Like 'will mention x conservative thing they hate at random for not reason' anti-conservative. I'm somewhere in the middle. It's frustrating.
We all, believe it too. 🎉🎉🎉
As a woman, I read lots of thrillers including the Tom Clancy novels and love them. I love Daniel Silva, David Baldacci, Jeffrey Deaver, and other male thriller authors that have lots of details behind what's going on. For example Jeffrey Deaver's Burning Wire with lots of information about electricity which I loved and his Colter Shaw series, which has become a TV series, with information on how he tracks somebody and I loved it. And I love Marvel and DC movies, Tolkien's LOTRs, and I don't like Bridgerton at all.
Daughter in law loves Bridgerton. So I see bits of it and spend my time critiquing the costuming ... I was a behind the scenes/below the line sort for a while.
I buy and read numerous books at second hand stores, on Ebay, or download through my public library. I am certain none of the 100+ books I consume each year go completely uncounted by this tally system. I probably read way more than the average female reader. I know I am not unique as most of the guys I know borrow from me and rarely buy any new books.
21:00 exactly right its the reason i liked Kaladin in Stormlight first 2 books. He overcome adversity. Sadly the author decided to talk about traumas etc, now I'm non-buy-nary.
Super interesting. I've started to avoid reading books by female authors. Too many of the details don't interest me at all... Aggravating instead of captivating like Larry Correa.
I feel seen as a reader👍
A lot of people are rejecting female authors for much the same reason. The stories all read the same, and they're all woke as Hell if they're not "Mommy Pr0n". YAWN.
Bummer. I'm a female writer, but I write many male characters, and they are front and center of many of my stories. I agree the market is saturated with gobbledygook. Also, most "female" humor doesn't appeal to men.
I won't try to sell you on my novel or anything, but there are a ton of us indies that are writing stuff that the Big 5 won't touch. Sci-fi horror with women who are strong-willed, funny, active (to a fault, in my protag's case), and who eff up their lives because of the "right" choices they've made. Or maybe that's just me?
So what would you recommend that I read? Because I like fiction written by male authors, too.
@@5Gburn I like Larry Correa, Craig Alanson , bary eisler. I think they do a great job with understanding the SPECIFIC equipment needed, what's available, what they'd rather have and why.
And tactics, they come up with pretty good battle strategies and sorta discuss other tactics previously used or an idea that'd work if conditions were manipulated a little bit.
My aunt will roll her eyes and fade out when I get into details of what makes a vehicle perfect for some task or environment.
Just don't be my aunt, show knowledgeable understanding how the details effect the outcome.
Example, line of off road trucks came to a stop because the leader had forgotten to lock in his hubs and got stuck in the very first real "puddle".
So driver looks to see if he can see the exhaust. It's underwater, blowing bubbles, so he leaves it running as climbs out window onto the hood and strips down, climbs down tire into the water locks the hub, locked the other hub. Gave the guy in the truck behind him the finger for laughing. Tosses clothes in truck, climbs back in and thinks about painting Frank's (guy behind laughing) truck in 2 dig before he puts it back in 4 high to pull out, but as satisfying as that'd be there's no sense in getting frank riled up this early. So he rolls up the windows and back and forth once gets him enough momentum to climb out, because tire speed wasn't enough.
@@dylanslater1360First, thanks for the recs. I'll go look them up!
I 100% agree about needing events to logic out. Even with fictional equipment and science, the reader needs to be able to think with it. (Which is how I found the math error in The Martian. Gave it a pass, though, because everything else was perfect.)
Besides all that, I think what's missing in a lot of modern fiction is a way to connect the dots between events that don't play out in quick succession. Fine details aren't given, so how is the reader supposed to know that such-and-such city is also called something else, and that's important because... And there's not nearly enough relevant in-scene tracking, which is a part of what you described.
Total agreement. Thanks for putting in the time to give a great example!
So, should we be able to tell from transcribed, real conversations, if the speaker is a man or a woman?
Excellent podcast, guys.
I read a lot of books (fiction and non) from the 1600s-1900s, they are verbose, they are filled with so much depth.
And I can read them multiple times.
A lot of modern writing I can go through once but struggle to repeat.
A lot of it is flat (even the good stuff), which makes enthusiasm for this stuff hard.
I wonder where the market is for deep and vast text that isn't obsessed with simplicity.
I notice a lot of "writing advice" stresses avoiding the production of books that would not have been out of place in the late 1800s.
You might like the Sun Eater series by Christopher Ruocchio. He regularly updates on his RUclips channel (Sun Eater: youtube.com/@suneaterbooks?si=gIMD55bDXdT4zkSk) and he’s halfway or so done with the final novel.
Best new recent series I’ve encountered other than The Three Body Problem trilogy by Cixin Liu (I don’t count the prequel or the fan made fourth novel).
Great video. God bless
Some of us are nerds & geeks (the terms didn't exist when I was in grade school, but I was one, a very female one (a true minority back then), but still one. After listening to this talk, I've decided that hard sci fi should be under Geek Lit, along with any other genre written with massive info dumps. We geeks love to info dump because that's what we like to read, even in romantic comedy we enjoy learning new stuff, it's like a bonus to the story.
With key word activated search engines, let's make "Geek Lit" a known term! We are an underserved ultimate minority and our voices deserve to be heard!
(copied from an answer I gave to another commentator. During our on line conversation, I discovered the above is why, or part of why, I find this talk the most thought provoking I've so far heard from Novel Marketing -- and that says a lot because from when I first stumbled on them, My first thought was "This guy's brilliant.")
New subscriber.. You had me at "men and women are different."
What's a good list of manly books?
Men love to learn. This is why I enjoy Dan Brown's books so much even though I'm not an avid reader of his genre. He always has interesting things to say in his books, and I feel like I come away a little bit more informed. That's not to say that I only read books that have info dumps, or that all info dumping is good, but strategic info dumps can definitely appeal to men.
For me, the biggest turn off in a book is the woke ideology that the big 5 try to shove down readers throats. I don't agree with it, I don't enjoy reading it, so when I encounter it, it's an automatic DNF.
I will say that having a lead character with a deep emotional wound can still be interesting, but it needs to be handled differently for men than it is for women. Batman is an amazing character with a very deep emotional wound. What makes it work for men though is the concept of show-don't-tell. Batman doesn't brood over his past constantly. You see instead how that past influences the decisions and actions that he takes today. The point of the story isn't Batman overcoming his deep emotional wound, it's Batman overcoming the villain and saving the city of Gotham. His deep emotional wound is only expressed in the form of dark, cool gadgets, and choice of lair, costume and intensity of speech.
I wonder if a way to bridge this gap in a novel (supposing someone wants to aim at both men and women) would be to show the utility of relationships. Then you have the problem-solving/technical aspect ("I need to have the Grand Vizier on my side, because otherwise their cavalry will wipe us out from the south) paired with the relational ("The way to get the Grand Vizier on my side is through his soft spot for X"). Would this split the difference and make everyone unhappy, or is it a potential path to someone who doesn't want to go hardcore one direction or the other?
19:24 This totally happened with Avatar: The Last Airbender when they made The Legend of Korra 🤷♂️. It completely flopped 😬.
I don't read novels because I prefer short fiction, just my preference.
Everything they said can be applied to short stories.
Dude, I've been following you for over a year to just now realize you're a conservative. Absolute chad. Stay winning, kings.
Altered Carbon (the novel not the tv show)
This was great information. The female author here of cozy mystery. I follow Author Media and Thomas Umstattd.
The men in the video really simplified male/female devision putting female books largely in romance category and saying that women are drawn to emations and transitional roles. They sound like one of the countles hyper masculine podcastrs that live in their own buble.
Women i know read all sorts of books with majority of men i know not reading at all or reading mostly non-fiction because it is more "informative".
That sounds like my Mom and Dad. Murder mysteries of all kinds vs History ... Well, and Penrod. Me: mysteries, sci fi, fantasy, historical ... it has words, I must read.
I read fairly regularly as well..... books that were published 15+ years ago, including classic lit. I still look for good modern stories, but its really a mixed bag.
I think video games and p* absorb their attention and publishers don’t publish what they like, many authors of books popular among men published in the last 20 years say most publishers rejected them.
Read Bill Meyers comment above. Most publishers rejected his series about a boy because "boys don't read." Finally found a publisher, sold over 2 million copies.
He was NOT an unknown at the time, had a proven track record, but still had trouble getting even one taker.
I say, have you heard of the Starshatter series?
This was great.
22:20 🤍James Earl Jones 🤍
I was a little confused by your comments on how professions have changed. There are a lot more men in nursing now than there were 30 years ago.
The paradox isn’t about one specific industry and region, it’s that generally as equality and freedom of choice increases, so does the (limited!) degree to which people gravitate toward “gender coded” careers. There is another paradox, similar, where visible, social, gender expression becomes more pronounced as a society is freed from subsistence and people get choices other than “woman in home, man in fields”.
@@WR3CK4G3firstandonly Let's not move the goalposts. The video creator specifically listed nursing as an example. Also engineering. The thing is, if you look at those two fields, you'll find the opposite of what he's saying is true. Compared to 50 years ago, nursing and engineering are much less gender coded now.
@@ComedorDelricothe studies the host was referring to are in specifically the most egalitarian countries, which includes Scandinavian countries but not necessarily countries like the US .
The goalposts were set in the first twenty seconds, regarding generalities and specifics.
@@joshuaduncan235 And they're averages. It would be extremely surprising if a given trend held true in every possible vocation.
I have a question for the male viewers, please.
Are you opposed to romance in books as a sub plot?
Most men love romance in a book. Just not drama. Try to avoid “misunderstandings” or the “liar found out” or other tropes like this. My favorite romance in books is when the characters are philosophically opposed which brings the conflict. Also, it is every man’s dream to be a hero and rescue the fair maiden. Damsels in distress are not bad as long as you make the damsel worth saving.
@@jamescouch979 I appreciate you taking the time to reply in earnest. Thank you 😁 That helped me.
"Women read too much romance and true crime. We have to educate them to be better." said no-one ever.
You're wrong. Our mothers tell us that when we're teens, warning us those books do not prepare for real dating. So far, not one generation has listened until too late... 🙂
Thing is people used to say this, but after a while we stopped and became more accepting of what women enjoy. The problem is that now that women dominate the book industry they're not accepting what we are into
@@friendlyone2706 ok everyone’s mum says that… but publishers do not!
@@WR3CK4G3firstandonly Because guilty pleasure sells
@@friendlyone2706 Exactly! To be even more frank, reading is for pleasure and pleasure sells. People need enjoyment in their life. Only the most miserable fanatic would believe otherwise!
*Lachieism - the desire for tragedy to strike so that it can deepen your resolve.
I'm a massive fantasy reader, and a lot of books nowadays want to empower women and show them to be better than men. However, the only way they do this is to make the men appear weak and stupid. It's insulting and unrealistic. So my main reasons are these:
- Writers not knowing how to make strong female characters without making the men weak, just so they can look strong comparatively.
- Writers not knowing what makes a strong character in general, with no character development.
Women can be strong characters without the men having to appear weak. Look at Éowyn from Lord of the Rings. Look at any woman written by Hayao Miyazaki - Nausicaa, Princess Mononoke, or Spirited away.
While I appreciate your discussion and insights, it would have been nice if you stepped out of the dichotomy of "male stories/readers" vs. "female stories/readers". There is a whole universe of stories that span the interests and values of both male and female readers, and they may offer "affordances" for different readers to value and appreciate different things.
As evidence, I offer the Christian New Testament. I think the evidence is strong that both men and women, over many for many centuries, have found the stories and storytelling in the New Testament to be interesting and compelling. Same could probably be said for stories in other religious or spiritual traditions, and even folk tales.
I also think some of your points were too simplistic. You talk a lot about how men appreciate and talk about sports (formations, equipment, plays) but you leave out how they experience the game while watching in a group. Fans watching a game at a sports bar will spontaneously "high five" with strangers when the home team scores, which is a very emotional, very relational dynamic. Also, notice how sports broadcasters interview players after the game. They usually ask "feeling" questions rather than technical+tactical questions. "How did it feel when ...?" and "How does this victory rank in your career?"
Last, even in the "pure masculine" stories, emotions and relations are vital, even if they are derived from the action or the "facts of the case". The "hero" will fall apart pretty quickly if his emotional support system collapses along with his sense of self.
Ok… I don’t see how what you’re saying really rebuts anything they’ve actually said.
I came in hoping for realistic advice on what the current male readership is looking for. Instead I got some awkward political/manosphere talking points.
Good. Your work isn't for men then. Market to your audience (not men)
@SirJesusFreak I'm a man and I'm writing for men. Not all men are ludicrously political anti-woke activists.
Where is your like button?
Apparently, I'm an alien 😂 As a woman, I love the nuclear bomb example. I find Tom Clancy books boring because of the detailed description, and I'm thinking get to the point. I would skip those pages.
Can't be born to a dead mother?
Someone's never read "Berserk"...
Conan is not a generation older than LotR. First, Tolkien was older than Howard (born 1892 vs. 1906). While LotR was begun after Howard's death (Howard dies in 1936 while Tolkien began "The New Hobbit" in 1937) the larger legendarium that LotR is part of first dates to 1917. Even if we isolate LotR it's publication was a mere 18 years after Howard's death.
If anything, LotR, with so much rooted in pre-WW1 England and Tolkien's experience in the trenches, is from a generation before Conan.
But I think the core differences are not of generation per se but place as well as time. A man who came of age in WW1 England is going to write very different tales from a man who came of age in 1920s Texas.