Vehicle Fire Data: Electric vs. Combustion
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- I delve into the topic of electric vehicle (EV) fires versus internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicle fires. While it may seem like EVs are more prone to catching fire, the reality is that the media tends to sensationalize such incidents, often fueled by the fear surrounding this new technology. I explore the lack of comprehensive data and proper data gathering techniques that prevent us from accurately assessing the frequency of EV fires.
Lithium-ion battery fires: The missing data
www.firerescue...
One thing that affects both ICE and EVs is that door latches are not normally mechsnically operated now. It is all well and good saying there are manual releases in case the electric mechanism fails. If you have young children or someone unused to the release in the back seat, the video i watched showed having to remove the speaker grill to access the emergency release. Not going to happen. If the occupants are disoriented by the airbags or injuries, or are unconscious, they wil be unable to reach the release. The exterior door handles won't work. Big issue when seconds make the difference between life and death. Door latches should be mechanical.
Absolutely an issue. I discuss it here: ruclips.net/video/Q_Ces3OaOyc/видео.html
You raise an interesting point about the age of ICE vehicles catching fire Vs the age of EV and hybrid EV vehicles catching fire. That could skew the data significantly.
The interesting thing is that new electric vehicles are catching fires on exhibition floor or before they are even registered to a new owner. Time is definately not on an EV side. As more datas are collected over time, it's going to be clear that EV, in its current technology, is highly prone to fires.
another thing to keep in mind is that wiring in any vehicle that is compromised by a design/maintance/age issue or a rodent issue can cause any vehicle to catch fire. My dad a mechanic has said many times a garage containg and car should NOT be attached to a house. Cars catch on fire period.
A rodent chewing through a wire isn't going to cause a vehicle to catch on fire 999 out of 1000 times... cars have fuses for a reason... most circuits inside a car have NO POWER when the car is off.
Let's stop living in fantasy make-believe world long enough to get back to reality. 🤦
If I ever have to get rescued by someone I hope he has a moustache as fine and splendid as the hosts.
I used to race electric vehicles before the first one sold in the US. The fires are extremely hot and give off noxious gasses. We had fires all the time on the track too. They were way too common.
Having said that the Lifepo4 batteries and solid state batteries will be much safer eventually.
@@awksedgreepLFP can still fail very energetically. It's only slightly safer. It also gives off significantly more hydrogen when it does fail. I'll be doing a video on it in the future.
But aren't all fires hot? I've never known one that wasn't......
@@Brian-om2hh The difference is that a gasoline fire leaves the charred husk of the vehicle, a battery fire leaves a puddle of molten slag. That's what they mean when they say the EV fires are hot, they burn hot enough that they make an ICE fire look like an EasyBake oven.
@@Brian-om2hh hydrogen fires relatively speaking they’re pretty cold, low radiant heat. You can’t see the flame. so yes, there are fires that are hotter than others.
Thank you for risk-assessing the unusually dangerous hazards of EVs. From an Occupational Health and Safety standpoint they present a new, high-risk, high-damage hazard for multiple business sectors, hazards that most EV drivers and the legacy press seem blissfully unaware of. Even more, I appreciate what you do to enhance the safety of your fire-fighting colleagues. Also, it's not the frequency of fires--it's the hideous consequences if the machine is an EV. Another factor against EVs is their enormous mass compared even to heavy, conventional ICE vehicles. God help me if I'm ploughed by an EV, even while driving my safe Mercedes E-Class with 10 airbags... and if I plough the EV the EV battery pack becomes a ticking time-bomb for thermal runaway risk, that only specially trained technicians are able to risk-assess.
If you hit an EV, the people in the EV will live. I'm going to get one.
@@paulogden7417 If a normal, massively obese EV collides with most of us driving conventional vehicles... the chances are against us. However, your battery can runaway immediately, or even months later, maybe in a busy, blocked, underground traffic tunnel or even in a garage connected directly to your family home, where your beloved wife and children sleep. To say you'd buy a massive, potentially dangerous vehicle so your victims are more likely to fare less well than you, speaks to something significant about both your intellectual and psychological makeup.
@Michael.Chapman
Mercedes uses the most dangerous battery chemistry: LiPo. There were several incidents in the short time Mercedes produces EVs on their own and don't by a Tesla drive train.
Toyota is building Hybrids since decades. Even with searching on the internet i haven't found any accident with burning battery or other safety issues with the Toyota Hybrid battery. What they are using? Safe NiMh.
Others use also safe LiFePo4.
So is realy the EV the problem or more "I only buy an EV if i can get 500 miles without charging and a price lower than a ICE car"?
Are you sure, that your "Mercedes best of the best" with that much airbags is realy a safe car? I don't trust that company, that puts bombs in their clients car.
But i agree with you, that heavy and big cars are a big problem in terms of crash safety.
@@maximilianreichelt9717 sorry, forgot to say my elderly Merc W211 E350 is still a sophisticated, minty, comfortable 2006, 300 bhp ICE vehicle after all these years. It was perhaps just a tad weighty back in its day… However, it would simply crumple like an aluminum foil eggshell now if hit with many a new heavy-weight EV-like the aesthetically grotesque Tesla “Ute/ Pickup”-which I think can, stupidly, needlessly, compete in acceleration with a Porsche 911. Why?
@@Michael.Chapmanbro just described every truck in the us 😂
It would be logical to expect more electric vehicle fires. It took years to find how gas vehicles caught on fire, and some of the edge cases aren’t entirely known yet.
In the fire service we constantly respond to those edge cases. People will always find creative ways to get themselves into trouble. Ideally, newer, safer battery chemistry will make it to market. However, when that happens we will still have many legacy vehicles on the road.
@@StacheDTraining EV's account for ~3% of vehicles on the road. That's not all that high a proportion to worry about old tech. Especially given the aftermarket value of batteries and the opportunities for battery upgrades/updates like on the Nissan Leaf. The concern of EV fires does not currently have enough evidence to suggest it's a worse problem than ICE vehicle fires to mean we should be hesitant about EV adoption. Especially given if we don't stop burning fossil fuels practically immediately it's likely that a large portion of humanity, if not all of us, will die out due to climate change.
@Leo99929 most EV owners will never experience a fire, however most firefighters will respond to an EV fire. My content is directed towards firefighters. Has nothing to do with EV adoption.
@@Leo99929 Geologists early this year reported that we appear to be in an ice age termination event. If the geological records they looked at are representative of what has been happening with atmospheric methane from natural sources in recent years, methane will dominate climate change in about 20 years and will persist for thousands of years. Switching to EVs overnight and the massive CO2 footprint it would require won't change anything since it'll take decades for the excess CO2 already present in the air and oceans, along with all of the extra CO2 from the mad rush for EVs and all of the necessary infrastructure to make them viable to clear up.
@@teardowndan5364do you know how much C02 is in the atmosphere presently??
One would expect more electrical fires earlier in the life of EVs while manufacturers are just learning the ropes. Stalwarts like Tesla who are also invested in tech should have mostly mastered the care, feeding, armouring, fusing and venting of the batteries. Newcomers to the EV tech are more likely to make the same old mistakes though they will have the benefit of observing historical issues and current competitor tech.
LFP can still fail very energetically. It's only slightly safer. It also gives off significantly more hydrogen when it does fail. I'll be doing a video on it in the future.
@@StacheDTrainingthis is unrelated to LFP. Teslas pack design uses cylindrical cells with individual fuses, the rest of the industry uses prismatic pouch cells which fail in cascading manner, when they fail. Sandy Munro has good engineering teardowns
In a 13 car pileup I was in a large car but the guy behind me slid sideways into the rear of my car then T-boned by another car . The driver couldn't talk but was conscious a bunch of us tried to free him gas was leaking and wiring was burning towards the fuel. .We were able to disconnect the battery with a tire tool stopping the immediate danger. A panicking guy was yelling to run its gonna go . I told the trapped driver the actual situation and promised to stay until help arrived. He was military and had a broken leg but recovered.
Always bothers me when the gov't makes moves like battery cars or social unrest because they depend wholly, entirely on EMS (police,fire,medical etc..) to contain their descions and outcomes.
I started calling them all political janitors 4 years ago.
The NTSB recorded 190'000 ICE car fires in the US during 2022. Around 4200 EV fires were recorded during the same period. Thatcham, the UK based Road Safety organisation, carried out their own study on car fires using globally available data. Thatcham took data from a sample of 100'000 of each type of car - both ICE and electric powered. They found there were 1529.9 fires per 100'000 ICE cars, and 25.4 fires per 100'000 electric cars.
There are about 241 million ICE vehicles on the road and 2.44 million EVs. Based on the NTSB numbers you provided that would mean 0.08% of ICE vehicle burn and 0.17% of EVs burn. Based on your information it seems we do have an issue. The numbers you reported from Thatcham are specifically mentioned in my video. I would be more interested in the number of ICE vehicles that caught on fire that were less than 5 years old, compared to the number of EVs that caught fire that were less than 5 years old. We also need to know what was on fire, was the high voltage battery involved, did the high voltage battery cause the fire, or was the high voltage battery an exposure. Data on this issue does not currently exist. afdc.energy.gov/transatlas/#/?state=FL&fuel=ELEC
@@StacheDTrainingReally like hearing people who actually know what they're talking about, how and what they think about! 👍😊 I'm so dang tired of hearing "But there are more ICE burning than EV's!" -OK I hear you, but what is the age of the cars, what's the cause etc??? Going on like that is comparing apples and pears!
I'm an instant subscriber! 😊
@StacheDTraining ... this data sounds like hot 💩 to me...
I mean... for every 100k sold, 1.5% catch on fire?
This data isn't giving an apples-to-apples comparison if it's just merely ALL cars... if you sell 100 new ICE vehicles, and two 20-year old ICE vehicles catch on fire it counts toward the new vehicles? 🤨
There has to be a better breakdown of WHAT is actually catching on fire.
I find with most studies the data is skewed. Not because they intend to skew it but because the data points selected may not include enough detail. Studies for EV vs ICE are all skewed because most of the EVs out there are new. EVs had very low sales until only a few years ago and methods of maintenance/parts between the lithium battery vs gas/diesel. Like comparing apples to oranges.
@@jasono2139 yep, to get an in-depth analysis, it has to be based upon age of vehicle, and maintenance record. That would be a big undertaking, because vin number, car maintenance, and insurance records would need to be researched and cataloged. Just getting Age of vehicles in the millions would be a ton of work. I'm pretty sure it would require a lot of funding that the NTSB doesn't have.
Great vid. Here is some more data for your vid and viewers...
Fires per 100,000 cars:
1) EVs 25
2) ICE 1529
3) Hybrids 3474
Since I can't share the links, search for these two articles...
a) Study: Hybrids, ICE Cars Far More Likely Than EVs To Catch Fire (from Inside EVs)
b) Government data show gasoline vehicles are up to 100x more prone to fires than EVs (from Electrek)
www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=Study%3A+Hybrids%2C+ICE+Cars+Far+More+Likely+Than+EVs+To+Catch+Fire+(from+Inside+EVs)&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=Government+data+show+gasoline+vehicles+are+up+to+100x+more+prone+to+fires+than+EVs+(from+Electrek)&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
The EV data is also a low sample size, so subject to a higher degree of variability, than the massive data size of ICE vehicles. Statistically that could be significant. Its a bit like tossing a coin ten times and picking head or tails vs tossing that coin 1000 times. You will get less statistical variability with the 1000 coin tosses, compared to just ten coin tosses. Same applies to hundreds of thousands of EV sales Vs 10 of millions of ICE car sales. The statistical variability for ICE car sale data is far far far more settled and hence established.
When you showed the data, it was obvious to me that the ICE's were dated. However does that explain a 75 fold bigger chance of an ICE burn than an EV burn?
And there is also another difference: EV's started of with the easy thermal runaway type. They should now start to shift to less easy thermal runaway LiFePo. There should be data about that too.
The graph like any graph is meant to justify something.
But like any technology: this is new. Despite ICE's being on the road for over a hundred of years, they still catch fire.
We need to learn.
Even the next one: sodium. Doesn't really have thermal runaway. But it will still react when punctured.
One thing I learned at least is not to put the vehicle inside the garage :-).
Thanks for this channel, I hope I will learn enough to keep my LiFePo4 domestic power boxes safe.
Batteries are the future, but we have to keep that future safe.
While vehicle age might play a part the difference is way more than I would expect. I do feel like the eV data set is lacking, we will see. And yes, the technology will likely get safer with new battery formulations and perhaps improved detection methods to predict failures.
It seems to me that having brand new vehicles that self-combust is not really something we should accept.
Yes, electric cars are the future, but why should we risk having NMC batteries with extremely toxic fumes, poor stability and only a marginal inprovement on range?
Unfortunately, these problems are often swept under the rug. The recent Luton airport car park fire was quite clearly a hybrid from the video footage (just look up the footage and tell me I am wrong) and the Freemantle Highway fire was caused by a Porsche Taycan (if you believe the broadcasted audio from the first responders who got this information from the crew). But for some reason the truth about NMC is just too painful to admit.
I will gladly buy an LFP EV, which can still catch fire, but will not cause it when it is too cold, too hot, or if the car is in a light crash.
NMC is already considered too dangerous for home energy storage, so why do governments allow this technology to be sold for usage in car parks, tunnels or in home garages?
From what I have seen and read, there is no reason to continue this madness. An LFP fire is much less dangerous and much less likely and the batteries are cheaper as well.
Thank you.
I don't think the problem with EVs is how quickly a fire can start, they can start just as suddenly with an ICE, I think the bigger problem is how _late_ they can start. Because of the nature of how their battery fires start, they might pick up a flaw after a fairly minor accident that then later results in the start of a fire. You might show up to an accident and need to have the EV towed away, only for it to spontaneously combust partway to the destination. You don't really get those those kinds of incidents with ICEs, but they are a very real problem with EVs.
It would be great to learn the most common causes of fires in older ICE vehicles and how to prevent them.
I've seen engine fires and they start quickly and burn hot and fast.
Thank you for this GREAT content!
(BTW, please mirror your content somewhere, some content creators have had their videos pulled and even been shut down. Think about who you're reporting on!)😎
Hi I am a retired Fire fighter with thirty years in the London fire Brigade and I agree with you. It is mainly older ICE cars that catch fire, and in most occasions especially towards the end of my career as cars became crammed with electrics and became fuel injection with sealed fuel systems most fires in these vehicles were of electrical origin. Also, many ICE vehicle were deliberately set having been dumped as perhaps un-repairable. There are lies, bloody lines and statistics. There is also no mention in these statistics as to the severity or cause of the fire and the severity which in ICE vehicles often develop slowly and are easily extinguished. In my experience most EV fires are severe and most ICE fires unless set and less so and often repairable. In 30 years of the fire service I only recall a couple of instance when a car has caught fire at a crash and this was easily extinguished.
1:51 1:52 Manufacturer should also be considered. Kia and Hyundai suffer the most fires per thousand units.
While that manufacturer has struggled with their ICE vehicles, it doesn't appear they've had an issue on the EV side.
Also missing, but you hinted at: fire severity. EV fires tend to burn stuff in their surroundings and this can get very expensive. Most ICE cars catching on fire aren't worth much and typically don't burn any more than the car itself. Cost of an EV fire has to be 100x or more than an ICE fire in value on average.
EV batteries and systems are only getting safer with time. The issue is that currently common chemistries self oxidise and damage can lead to a short which self heats, so you have to pour water on it to keep it below self ignition temperature until it discharges to a safe level. That's a lot of water, time, and effort. But vehicle manufacturers know this and are working on batteries that are far harder to catch on fire and far easier to put out. Think about it like this: This is as bad as the technology will ever be. It's only going to get better.
It really depends what caused the fire. Many electric car fires involve a crash of the car.
My guess would be, that a electric car fire is slower then an fire of an ice car.
On eletric buses it is a different story. Some have more reactive batteries. The have other security measures in place for the passengers. (E.g. top mounted batteries)
EV fires are so extremely rapid they are explosive!
ruclips.net/video/dQxm6n7SdvE/видео.html
Electric cars and busses use the same batteries. The biggest difference is the size of the battery pack. A fire in the high voltage battery burns very energetically. Far more energetic and faster burning when compared to an ICE vehicle burning.
@@StacheDTraining That is wrong. There are different types of batteries. I remembered the picture of a burning electric bus with a Lithium Metal Polymer (LMP) battery. ruclips.net/video/5r-yN8SugWM/видео.html&ab_channel=VIXX That is definitely not a normal EV fire.
Telsa uses LFP or NCA battery chemistry.
There are also EVs with Zebra Batteries, lead batteries or Nickel-metal hydride batteries on the market. They all have different failure modes.
I went to talk about electric and alternative drive trains. In this talk, multiple options for dealing with car fires were shown.
Some EV Battery Packs have special seals that will burn down in an event of a fire. This allowed the firefighters to get water inside the battery pack. In other cases, it is possible to get the water inside over the connection box of the ev or other weak parts, that will burn away. If the fire has a way to escape from the battery, there is also a way for water into the battery.
Great training for firefighters is very important, but I wouldn't see this as a point against buying an EV. I know some fire stations that are already using EVs.
@@Geyer128 what hasn't been discussed is what happened when you starve an electrical fire with CO2 fire retardant? Because all I keep hearing is how fire departments are wasting 30,000 litres of water to try extinguish a single EV fire?
You cannot compare 100K with cars. Swedish fire departments say NO to electric cars. They say, NOT in garages, minimum 40 feet from houses.
More interested in if the occupants survived.
Lithium iron phosphate cells, which don't use cobalt or nickel are safer and much less likely to catch fire (thermal run away). The base Tesla model 3 uses this chemistry. Many Chinese manufacturers have moved to this cell. Ford is planning on using them as well.
LFP can still fail very energetically. It's only slightly safer. It also gives off significantly more hydrogen when it does fail. I'll be doing a video on it in the future.
@@StacheDTraining BYD have a video of a nail penetrating their blade battery.
@@kmancrx and UL FSRI has done testing on LFP that shows the failures. The are many ways BYD could have setup the test to show no failure. Independent 3rd party testing is critical.
@@StacheDTraining
ruclips.net/video/CSGESKhtZD0/видео.html
Here's a link to the video so you can review it for yourself and evaluate if you think they are "rigging" it to their advantage. I'm not saying that LFP cells can't be involved in fires. A quick google search will find BYD cars and busses that have caught fire.
The market however, appears to be heading that direction.
@@kmancrx Take a look at the voltage difference. I suspect the state of charge is difference. My newest video goes into the details on why that matters: ruclips.net/video/tFjNypibHO8/видео.html
The media I find try to paint a rosy picture about EVs and try to downplay EV fires.
Ah yes the electric fire vehicles. Propelled by electric fires.
I promise you the giant insurance conglomerates have these stats 😂
I do agree. Unfortunately, the insurance companies seem to keep their data fairly confidential. I'm also not sure if they really look too deeply into the failure modes.
This video highlights probably one of the biggest issues with EV fires. That when the battery catches on fire, it shorts circuits the electronics preventing owners from escaping their car. Watch the video for explanation
ruclips.net/video/dQxm6n7SdvE/видео.html
You are correct, many newer vehicles (not limited to EVs) are using electrical switches and actuators to open the doors. This can cause issues exiting the vehicle when power is lost. However, most (likely all) vehicles have mechanical safety releases on the doors allowing passengers to exit if power is lost. With that said, there are some vehicles that only have this option for the front doors, leaving the rear doors unable to be opened if power is lost.
@@StacheDTraining did you watch the video? Obviously not
@@jameshatton4211 StacheD is correct. Even Tesla have manual mechanical door released. The video you've linked to has already been debunked.
Just because owner doesn't know about the release, doesn't mean it isn't there.
@@jameshatton4211 I am aware of this video and have seen it before. This owner was not aware, or did not remember that there was a manual release on the door. Look at page 3 of the emergency response guide. www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/Training/AFV/Emergency-Response-Guides/Tesla/Model_3_Emergency_Response_Sheet_en.ashx
@@c31979839 ok and that's going to save lives. I think only very very very small percentage of people driving EVs actually know this? And I'm sure you know that too! People WILL die because they panick. Don't give me your debunk rubbish. I'm not an anti EV person either. I'm also an environmental scientist. Your argument is moot null has zero basis.
Just because there is an emergency release, you think that this is going to prevent people from being trapped in their car when it catches on fire? You are a moron
I see a major flaw with your logic! You simply state Lithium Ion Battery! They are not all the same chemistry or come with same fire risk!
I do however appreciate you do question an important part of the issue. Did the fire start from the battery? If it did this is where recognizing the different battery chemistries also factors into it! The NMC batteries are the ones with the risk for thermal runaway. That isn't to say it's not possible for a Lifepo 4 battery to catch fire. It's just less likely and less catastrophic.
I hate to say it, but I think with some EV fires the occupants will be basically cremated.
Operationally both NMC and Lifepo 4 batteries have their pluses and minuses.
It would be nice to see them come out with a battery and a safe material to address fire concerns. By safe material I mean for use in rapidly extinguishing the fire that is environmentally friendly. Maybe even built into the vehicle fire suppression systems.
All lithium-ion battery chemistries on the market today are very similar in terms of failure. LFP can still fail very energetically. It's only slightly safer. It also gives off significantly more hydrogen when it does fail. I'll be doing a video on it in the future. Eventually we may get safe battery chemistry.
@@StacheDTraining The test I've seen show either no reaction with the lifepo4 battery or far less than the NMC.
ruclips.net/video/Bg_480HUheo/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/07BS6QY3wI8/видео.html
@@lisam4503he knows what his talking about, you don't.
Clearly you aren't a very good judge of who knows more or don't. I posted supporting links. I happen to know a lot about not only lithium batteries but also other battery chemistries and new battery chemistries in development. @@brendanc5519
I wonder if the new more environmentally friendly but also more flammable a/c refrigerant being used in new vehicles now poses more of a fire risk in a front end collision where the condenser is sitting in front of the radiator?
i didnt know yf was flammable, though i am just now getting them in the shop really.
@@zg2964 it's not. No refrigerant is combustible or flammable
@@jameshatton4211 according to google its mildly flammable.
@@jameshatton4211 Yo, propane is used as a refrigerant. There are 100% flammable refrigerants.
Probably blow your mind if I tell you engine coolant is flammable, too, under the right conditions.
set the ignition timing to after top dead center (can't say the proper word, thank god for the PC police) and run the car under high load for a while. The exhaust manifold will be glowing. Dump 50/50 premixed (50% water!?!?!) coolant on that manifold and watch your eyebrows.
R134A is also an explosion hazard under certain conditions, anyone who actually cares to be correct can download the MSDS and lean all about it.
I hate regards on the internet. Zero excuse.
@@jameshatton4211 That is incorrect: www.epa.gov/snap/refrigerant-safety
I will not buy anything I find advertised on RUclips.
And how many of the fires were deliberate?
The simple solution is to have some sort of device that covers the battery in some sort of foam in the event of a fire, but that would eat into profits lol. I think what more concerning is the rise in the amount of train and tractor/trailer crashes that involve fires due to hazardous materials, or that almost all modern electronic devices everywhere in our lives contain lithium-ion batteries.
Not meaning to go too sinical here, but I've been wondering.
Is it common to extract people alive from a burning vehicle? Or do the possibly poisonous fumes from burning upholstery make that unlikely anyways?
Because if so I imagine that that could introduce another problem with electric vehicles over ice ones.
As I believe (lots of "I believes" here, I'm not a fire expert!) you can suppress an ice fire, giving the responders a chance to extract a victim, with water (removing heat). Where a chemical fire requires foam, or something, which removes the oxygen. And humans don't tend to fare well without oxygen.
Is this a "thing" at all? Or is the time between that first nozzle opening and the actual extraction so short that the oxygen/no oxygen situations are not factors at all?
It is rare for a combustion engine vehicle to catch on fire after a crash.
Most modern cars have a fuel cut off to the engine in the case an impact.
Give it 20 years then we’ll see. EV fires will only become more frequent with age.
Like you mentioned, Medias will mainly focus EV fires over Gas or Hybrid Vehicles, since it is the top new technology that everyone wants, the medias, that are probably still influenced by huge petroleum companies, will only show the bad with EVs on fire. Many cars can catch on fire, gas, diesel, hybrid and EVs, it depends on the mileage and how you took care of it.
Well, if they want to compare ice and ev, why dont they compare the same year only? 😂
Honestly, I'd like to see the vehicle fire data broken down by cause of fire as well... whether it was a crash, someone forgot to put an oil cap back on, or it just started while parked doing nothing.
Those are all very different issues.
I think your biggest fear is that in an EV accident where the occupants are trapped and seriously injured, you won't be able to save them in a blazing fire!
Where you can still extinguish the fire and save the occupants with a petrol or diesel car?
Even bystanders can extinguish these fires at an early stage!
Are bystanders all walking around with fire extinguishers? 🤦
@@jasono2139 I'm talking about a starting small fire under the hood or a fire due to overheated brakes, not a dangerous fire-breathing EV fire!
In Europe, fire extinguishers are mandatory in every car!
And if an accident happens near a covered parking lot, there are fire hoses on every floor!
@@pfv3462 right... I bet the fire will just happen to be in a parking garage... there's so many of those in small European villages. 🤦
" A lot of discussion?" 60x more ICE fires over a given number of equivalent cars.
Fire statistics on ICE vehicles are, as the presenter stated, driven by the aging, poorly maintained vehicles that are near end of life. I submit that these statistics are also biased by the popularity of stolen ICE vehicles used in crime and subsequently burned by the perpetrators to destroy evidence. EV vehicles remain very dangerous in the case of battery pack damage in collision or through exposure to water. The stored energy in the battery pack can be released very fast and then the combustible materials of the battery pack and vehicle will almost certainly be ignited. Meanwhile their is an serious electrical discharge risk to anyone in or near the vehicle. It seems as though no risk analysis has been done on the EV vehicles. All of this risk is accepted for the dubious benefit of moving the carbon emissions of the vehicle to remote locations rather than an exhaust pipe. This is an even more of a poor choice as CO2 is not a real climate problem.
This!!! no one tell us the aging parts. You cant compare 20 years old ice with 5 years old ev.
And what’s it going to be like when these electric cars age?
Those EVs will be in a scrap heap before they reach 10 years old.
@@brendanc5519 a scrap heap at least 15 metres from each other 😂
Speaking as a EE who has consulted on EV chargers and BMS systems I see 2 main issues. 1.Separator damage due to accidents or other mechanical issues including faulty construction. 2. Separator damage due to lithium ions electroplating on the cathode. Either way a low resistance short can lead to rapid thermal runaway. A high resistance short may simply activate the Unsafe toCharge decision in the BMS. Or it may go low resistance. The BMS is smart. It will disallow charging of a cold pack to prevent dendritic growth, and many other forms of electrical/thermal abuse. BUT as cells age cracks in the carbon based anode can appear, and patches of this material may electrically disconnect. In this case the li ions can't get into the anode to be stored as the battery is being charged. In either case lithium metal can be plated, stressing the thin plastic separator mechanically and chemically.
To my knowledge no BMS can detect this.
Then we have chemical attack upon the battery housing from road salt in the north and salt spray in coastal regions. Once breached the battery is in danger, and it's a matter of time before cell to cell shorts can happen.
Then let's talk liquid cooling system leaks. Most EVs have liquid cooling. Eventually they will leak. Coolant is typically glycol and deionized water based. Theory says that it is not conductive due to no lime or other ionic contamination. But once a leak occurs, even micro amps of current flow from cell/module metal terminals causes Corrosion and makes Ions and more current can flow, more Corrosion etc. Electrochemical runaway!
This happened to a crash tested Chevy Volt Hybrid over 10 years ago. Battery caught fire 3 weeks later.
So in conclusion Yes I think we are gonna see more self-immolating EVs as the fleet ages.
@@davidpacholok8935 thanks for this comment! You’ve got more say in what could happen than a lot of people do.
The point of the video is fare, let's take out old gas cars, but consider this: there is a much smaller gap between hybrid and ev, maybe there are 15 years difference between Prius (1st hybrid) and leaf or model s (1st electric) is 15 years reasonable to consider a 1.5% drop in fire?
Except that many of those older hybrids do not use lithium ion batteries. They use nickel metal hydride batteries that are not as dangerous as lithium ion.
@@Crosshair84 I think more data should be important to understand.
If you see other statistics like children's mortality between 1800 and 1900 got lower quickly and now is slow so could be something like this, or could be that certain chemistry is safer so lfp is much lower risk but NMC brings it up, so maybe ditching just one kind keeps the improvement going up.
Well, I've owned more than fifty cars, all used and very old, gas and diesel. Only had a fire, on a diesel car. It was caused by an electric short, and the whole wiring burned. It produced a lot of smoke, we got out of the car fast as greased lightning, and watched in fascination how the wiring burned to a crisp. It then died by itself. After a while, we started the car pushing it and went home. No battery needed, was old school mechanical pump. Now that I call reliable!. Imagine a litium battery fire now...
EVs burn because of electronics, and 95% of ICE vehicles that burn start because of.... electronics. Modern cars have plastic everywhere for fuel tanks and lines, they don't leak till they are hit. Pintos and C/K trucks been gone a while now...
So now you've got the electric power steering, the electric brake booster vac pump, the electric coolant pumps to regulate the batteries, the big whopper that is electric heat and electric AC, and we haven't even arrived at other creature comforts yet, all pulling mad current and 95% of those don't exist on ICE vehicles. A reckoning is coming as these age out, hope the fuses are good! Seen a video recently with a ham guy testing blade fuses, turns out a lotta those are counterfeit, too! Hooray!
I also laugh my butt off whenever some technically illiterate person tells me their EV is going to last forever and with zero maintenance. Friend, everything mechanical actually commonly replaced on your ICE vehicle also exists in the EV, but worse.
Data set identified per 100k sales. Now this year 2023 there were minimum 5 Electric F150 Lightnings that burnt prior to sales.
Including any Data set that may be current...
That is only one reason why not to buy an Electric Vehicle.
The 2nd reason, the End Life of the Electric Vehicles (EV's) Battery 🔋 packs.. where do they go, they end up in Unpaved Junkyards Unplugged, therefore no Cooling Systems flowing thru to prevent Thermal Expansion. Then they crimp the Cooling Systems. Look up Lithium-ion Mixed with Water.
Now Unpaved, ever Seen Lithium-ion Battery 🔋 Packs Leak an Orange or Brown Gel... imagine millions like the onse which burn in Hawaii for 40 days between August 2023 to September 2023..
A wonderful future's.... sure Clean the Air and Pollute our GROUND Water 💧.
Many of the homes in Maui had solar with energy storage systems. It's a major part of the clean-up. abcnews.go.com/US/emotional-toll-clearing-debris-maui-wildfires-2-months/story?id=103753321
Youre stats are 5 years old.
That's 100% the point of this video. We don't know the extent of the issue because we (the fire service) aren't collecting the data. Hopefully this can be addressed in the NFIRS (National Fire Incident Reporting System) replacement, but I'm assuming were several years from seeing that go live.
@StacheDTraining Thanks for the guide response. We own an electric car (Tesla model y). Unfortunately, the stats on electric cars will be influenced by the big oil. They are afraid of losing their power over the automobile drivers. As soon as they can gather enough negative information on EV's, they'll flood the airwaves with it. My wife and I took a 3200-mile trip in our Tesla. The only maintenance issue was a message that the windshield washer fluid was low. I filled it. The only charging issue was a warning that our next super charger point was full and would we like to route to another. We chose one 3 miles closer.
Unfortunately, all electric cars are not created equal.
Hyundais and kias
I am purchasing a horse 🐎
I'm sick of EV wankers who use this as a basis of their arguments. They say oh but ice vehicles catch fire more than EVs etc etc. But they don't have a clue . For one there's less EVs out there. The two fires are completely different. And yes EV fires are brandnew cars VS ICE fires.ICE fires they are older poorly maintained vehicles. If a ICE vehicle is maintained it won't catch fire, the reason a poorly maintained ICE car catches fire is lack of maintenance fuel lines rust, rubber fuel lines go brittle and fracture, poor/ loose fittings . Inexperienced worked on the car. Fuel filters placed near ignition systems. Carburettor adjusted wrongly and floods. Then electric fires are caused by same as above Inexperienced people working on the vehicle. Bad wiring, wrong fuses installed, damaged wiring. Etc etc. I own a 57 Plymouth and it's not catching fire because it's well maintained, and no it's not restored,it's a original unrestored car. And I'm a mechanic and I know what I'm doing.
Lithium reacts explosive on contact with water
It sure does. Luckily, lithium-ion batteries do not contain lithium metal. It's a chemical formulation.
to clarify, that's "elemental" Lithium thats been artificially ISOLATED by Man that explodes in water. from a stand point of College Chemistry 101 and understanding how to read the Periodic Table, we quickly recognize then highly reactive elements like Lithum (and other elements) don't naturally exist like this in Nature, no, they "naturally" form compounds with other elements...
yeah, so that "explosion" we see is Li giving up an Electron, forming a compound, and thus getting BACK to a state of "balance" and "stability" (as the Universe originally intended). that is to say, the reaction that occurs with Lithium here on Earth, is the same reaction that will occur on Mars, on the Moon, on a Comet orbiting the Sun, etc.
ruclips.net/video/yGDkiUAwxRs/видео.html
@@StacheDTraining actually they do contain lithium metal
@@jameshatton4211 actually it is a lithium salt, not metal.
Look up the Wikipedia article on Lithium-Ion batteries and look at reference [10]
"Generally, the negative electrode of a conventional lithium-ion cell is graphite made from carbon. The positive electrode is typically a metal oxide. The electrolyte is a lithium salt in an organic solvent."
I checked, and there have been hundreds of thousands of laptop fires! By comparison, I could find no cases of slide rule fires. I guess we better stop using laptops and go back to slide rules. Of course, all of you RUclipsrs will be out of a job, but....
My computer contains exactly zero lithium though?
Zoomers always forgetting things existing due to lack of experience, somehow they still think they know everything. Gotta love em...
@@pontiacg445 - I think the dude just ran his mouth (fingers in this case) without actually watching the video.
Wow, what an obnoxious music added to the background. It's just noise which makes your speech less intelligible.
I am currently looking for a video editor as video production is very new to me. Let me know if you'd like to be considered.
What your dataset and no one's dataset is including is the maintenance and upkeep of the ICE vehicles. More often than not, ICE fires are started because of lack of coolant, oil leaks, or other lack of maintenance.
My ICE car caught fire just after getting its MOT :(
@@favesongslist You need a better mechanic.
@@ColoradoCarGuy Hard to find a reliable mechanic just like finding a good dentist or doctor, you just get a random person at work on the day :(
I’m never buying or riding in an EV. I don’t feel like burning to death. 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥