I feel like anyone knocking Stormgate at this point forgets what early StarCraft 2 was like. I believe that this game has an incredibly bright future and so far so good.
@daddythelion604 wait you're telling me the game thats 14 years post release with 2 sequels is better than the game that is still in alpha/closed beta? 🤯
i think to fix the hellborn they should have a dps immolate on the main target, and a move/attack slow on the AoE cone (soot or char or idk) if an immolated target dies it ignites surrounding debuffed enemies. I think this gives it more power/utility without just giving it more stats. Also fits the theme of internals having that chain reaction potential to snowball during a fight.
THis game is looking up to be really cool, they seem to have taken lesson from the good and bad of sc2. I wonder what and if they will embrace more from wc3. I hope they understand that most players wont touch competitive modes, so they have fun stuff ready more me and the rest of the causals.
Healing 8 hp/second is very slow. 10 Seconds is forever: most skirmishes are over in less than 10 seconds, and large battles are usually decided in under 30 seconds. So one medtech, just healing, will heal less than 1 Lancer's health in most battles. It's really an out-of-combat heal, and I appreciate that the devs are being very, VERY careful not to end up with SC2 levels of healing, but I think they can afford to bring it up a bit more. In exchange, I would lower the armor buff a bit, so healing is weaker against focused damage but stronger against spread-out damage. Also to explain how he's saying armor works, it's the inverse of reduction. So for example, if you have 50% resistance, the inverse of that is 100% because it has +100% effective hp. 200 armor means 67% reduction. This way is easier for people to understand once they wrap their brains around it, BUT with this design you usually don't want units to come with any armor by default, unless you're planning to interact with it a lot. For example (ehp stands for Effective HitPoints): Unit 1 has 100hp and 0 armor, 100ehp. You give it +50 armor. It now has 150ehp, +50% from normal Unit 2 has 50hp and 100 armor, 100ehp. You give it +50 armor. It now has 125ehp, +25% from normal Unit 1 has 100hp and 0 armor, 100ehp. You give it -20 armor. It now has 80ehp, -20% Unit 2 has 50hp and 100 armor, 100ehp. You give it -20 armor. It now has 90ehp, -10% from normal So what we see is that *units with built-in armor are less affected by armor buffs and debuffs.* This is kinda cool since it's like a ghost stat that makes units different. HOWEVER, this has the problem that players who look at the hp of a unit without understanding armor get confused, because the ehp is what they're usually thinking but it isn't what's displayed. Another thing this ghost stat affects is the effectiveness of healing, since Unit 2 from above is actually healed at a rate of 16ehp/second, UNLESS you code the game so that healing is applied to ehp (and therefore affected by armor, which some games do and it's so confusing). So by the way, this means that MedTechs currently heal for 10ehp/s in combat if they are healing 8/s and giving 25 armor. BUT for a unit with more base armor, they heal slightly more ehp and grant slightly less total ehp. As you can see, when you use small numbers for armor in this system (like 5-10), the ghost stat really does nothing at all: Even the difference between 0 and 100 armor only halves the effectiveness of buffs and debuffs. So the downside is, *there really isn't much difference between giving a unit an armor buff or an hp buff.* You could have an armor tech that just increases the units' hp, and nobody would really notice. And it would be less confusing for players, because the displayed hp would change. Having something like 5 armor on a dog isn't useful design, because it makes the unit's hp display inaccurate but doesn't meaningfully change the behavior of the unit. 50hp with 5 armor is just 52.5hp, but with 8.4/s medtech healing instead of 8/s. Now, on the FLIP side, if you really want to go tinfoil hat, players sometimes PERCEIVE units as stronger or weaker than they "should be" and you can use mechanics like this to fake them out. So if you WANT your dog to have 55hp, but you want to TELL players that it has 50hp so that they always feel like their dog is lucky and hard to kill for a 50hp unit, you can give it 10 armor. The Civilization 5 rule of deliberately lying to your players and claiming their units are weaker than they really are so they feel good. Is your mind blown yet? ...now, if they're SC2 or WC3 players they're used to low armor values (SC2) or armor that applies big reduction (WC3), and they see 10 armor on a dog and they think it should be stronger than 55hp (in this example where the base is 50). They feel like armor is BS, too weak. So how do you judge your players' expectations of what armor should do, based on other games that they play? Good luck~ AND what if you want to use that ghost stat to make a unit MORE affected by buffs/debuffs and LESS affected by healing? Well, you could give a unit higher hp and negative armor, but players usually don't like that. So you COULD move the baseline so 100% hp actually IS at 10 armor. Now 110 armor is double ehp, and 0 armor is -10% ehp from what's displayed. And your 0 armor unit gets a bigger ehp buff from armor upgrades than your "regular" units, because of how percentages work.
i really like you guys just discussing what's on your mind from what you see, super awesome thanks. the play-by-play thing would be kind of inappropriate and silly i reckon
Man I really wish they iterated on the rts genre a bit more. As it stands this is very similar to what we already have in star craft, wc3, aoe 2, etc. I feel like they came in with an intention to challenge the status quo and we came out with a very similar product. Maybe I'm in the minority though.
It is further in actually. PiG is using a smaller scale UI than default. Maybe that's what you are noticing. And also PiG played the game more zoomed in than default when he played it the first time. You might also be remembering that video.
I don't even know about that, vanguard has crazy AoE in the lancer/vulcan vs fiend/brute waves early on. The hellborn is supposed to counter structures and mass worker repair I guess but they do next to no DPS straight up once vanguard turtles long enough to get the death ball
i think to fix the hellborn they should have a dps immolate on the main target, and a move/attack slow on the AoE cone (soot or char or idk) if an immolated target dies it ignites surrounding debuffed enemies. I think this gives it more power/utility without just giving it more stats. Also fits the theme of internals having that chain reaction potential to snowball during a fight.
Old hedgehog looked like a cute RC toy. Not good. New four leg fits with vanguard lore and atlas. 🎉 sieged ones don’t attack ground at all, very important to micro like a ground Viking. So powerful as long as you don’t leave them in wrong transition.
![Twenty One Pilots - “The Line” (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/E2Rj2gQAyPA/mqdefault.jpg)
Also like Exo shoot blue lasers now. The bullets felt way less substantial and targets unclear. Good changes. Precise. All details noticed.
Those are tracers. A laser would be a continuous beam.
I feel like anyone knocking Stormgate at this point forgets what early StarCraft 2 was like. I believe that this game has an incredibly bright future and so far so good.
Huge improvement from previous versions. I think this game will be what StarCraft and Warcraft players were waiting for.
Is this the only two civs? I'm not seeing anything that good here.
@jaydoles88 there will a third eventually. Still early alpha/betta
Its actually fun when I played it but its miles behind sc2, its like playing a budgeted version of sc2
@daddythelion604 wait you're telling me the game thats 14 years post release with 2 sequels is better than the game that is still in alpha/closed beta? 🤯
@@michaelmoreno7357 i played sc2 since the beginning and it had a better beta than sg beta
I loved wc3, I love sc2. This game looks like it’s shaping up nicely. Crazy that we’ve suddenly got multiple RTS offerings coming in hot.
It's a good time to be an RTS fan :D
i think to fix the hellborn they should have a dps immolate on the main target, and a move/attack slow on the AoE cone (soot or char or idk) if an immolated target dies it ignites surrounding debuffed enemies. I think this gives it more power/utility without just giving it more stats. Also fits the theme of internals having that chain reaction potential to snowball during a fight.
damn that's a cool idea
Have been absolutely adoring this game. Glad your casting the new patch!!
Really the best game so far... nice to see Vanguard winning against Infernals :D
THis game is looking up to be really cool, they seem to have taken lesson from the good and bad of sc2. I wonder what and if they will embrace more from wc3. I hope they understand that most players wont touch competitive modes, so they have fun stuff ready more me and the rest of the causals.
yeah I'm really keen to see what the campaign and co-op offerings look like as they're fleshed out later on
I can't wait to see more from stormgate!
Is there a way to repair Infernal's structures? And it's there any way to restore HP other than healing camps?
So far it’s good. I just wish ai was improved but I’m sure it will be in the near future.
Healing 8 hp/second is very slow. 10 Seconds is forever: most skirmishes are over in less than 10 seconds, and large battles are usually decided in under 30 seconds. So one medtech, just healing, will heal less than 1 Lancer's health in most battles.
It's really an out-of-combat heal, and I appreciate that the devs are being very, VERY careful not to end up with SC2 levels of healing, but I think they can afford to bring it up a bit more. In exchange, I would lower the armor buff a bit, so healing is weaker against focused damage but stronger against spread-out damage.
Also to explain how he's saying armor works, it's the inverse of reduction. So for example, if you have 50% resistance, the inverse of that is 100% because it has +100% effective hp. 200 armor means 67% reduction. This way is easier for people to understand once they wrap their brains around it, BUT with this design you usually don't want units to come with any armor by default, unless you're planning to interact with it a lot. For example (ehp stands for Effective HitPoints):
Unit 1 has 100hp and 0 armor, 100ehp. You give it +50 armor. It now has 150ehp, +50% from normal
Unit 2 has 50hp and 100 armor, 100ehp. You give it +50 armor. It now has 125ehp, +25% from normal
Unit 1 has 100hp and 0 armor, 100ehp. You give it -20 armor. It now has 80ehp, -20%
Unit 2 has 50hp and 100 armor, 100ehp. You give it -20 armor. It now has 90ehp, -10% from normal
So what we see is that *units with built-in armor are less affected by armor buffs and debuffs.* This is kinda cool since it's like a ghost stat that makes units different. HOWEVER, this has the problem that players who look at the hp of a unit without understanding armor get confused, because the ehp is what they're usually thinking but it isn't what's displayed.
Another thing this ghost stat affects is the effectiveness of healing, since Unit 2 from above is actually healed at a rate of 16ehp/second, UNLESS you code the game so that healing is applied to ehp (and therefore affected by armor, which some games do and it's so confusing). So by the way, this means that MedTechs currently heal for 10ehp/s in combat if they are healing 8/s and giving 25 armor. BUT for a unit with more base armor, they heal slightly more ehp and grant slightly less total ehp.
As you can see, when you use small numbers for armor in this system (like 5-10), the ghost stat really does nothing at all: Even the difference between 0 and 100 armor only halves the effectiveness of buffs and debuffs. So the downside is, *there really isn't much difference between giving a unit an armor buff or an hp buff.* You could have an armor tech that just increases the units' hp, and nobody would really notice. And it would be less confusing for players, because the displayed hp would change. Having something like 5 armor on a dog isn't useful design, because it makes the unit's hp display inaccurate but doesn't meaningfully change the behavior of the unit. 50hp with 5 armor is just 52.5hp, but with 8.4/s medtech healing instead of 8/s.
Now, on the FLIP side, if you really want to go tinfoil hat, players sometimes PERCEIVE units as stronger or weaker than they "should be" and you can use mechanics like this to fake them out. So if you WANT your dog to have 55hp, but you want to TELL players that it has 50hp so that they always feel like their dog is lucky and hard to kill for a 50hp unit, you can give it 10 armor. The Civilization 5 rule of deliberately lying to your players and claiming their units are weaker than they really are so they feel good. Is your mind blown yet?
...now, if they're SC2 or WC3 players they're used to low armor values (SC2) or armor that applies big reduction (WC3), and they see 10 armor on a dog and they think it should be stronger than 55hp (in this example where the base is 50). They feel like armor is BS, too weak. So how do you judge your players' expectations of what armor should do, based on other games that they play? Good luck~
AND what if you want to use that ghost stat to make a unit MORE affected by buffs/debuffs and LESS affected by healing? Well, you could give a unit higher hp and negative armor, but players usually don't like that. So you COULD move the baseline so 100% hp actually IS at 10 armor. Now 110 armor is double ehp, and 0 armor is -10% ehp from what's displayed. And your 0 armor unit gets a bigger ehp buff from armor upgrades than your "regular" units, because of how percentages work.
haha I actually read this whole essay. Nice thoughts mate, I think the system makes a lot of sense the more I adjust to it
i really like you guys just discussing what's on your mind from what you see, super awesome thanks. the play-by-play thing would be kind of inappropriate and silly i reckon
Man I really wish they iterated on the rts genre a bit more. As it stands this is very similar to what we already have in star craft, wc3, aoe 2, etc. I feel like they came in with an intention to challenge the status quo and we came out with a very similar product. Maybe I'm in the minority though.
To me frost giant wanted a return to old blizzard rts (hence made up of a bunch of ex blizzard employees)
Is the camera pulled farther out on this build?
It is further in actually. PiG is using a smaller scale UI than default. Maybe that's what you are noticing. And also PiG played the game more zoomed in than default when he played it the first time. You might also be remembering that video.
Is this game multiplayer only? Does it have a campaign?
It will have campaigns eventually. There's currently 1v1 and coop in the beta. There will also be a 3v3 mode later on
Hellborn seem good to break bunker turtles but seem pretty trash against Vanguard army units
I don't even know about that, vanguard has crazy AoE in the lancer/vulcan vs fiend/brute waves early on. The hellborn is supposed to counter structures and mass worker repair I guess but they do next to no DPS straight up once vanguard turtles long enough to get the death ball
i think to fix the hellborn they should have a dps immolate on the main target, and a move/attack slow on the AoE cone (soot or char or idk) if an immolated target dies it ignites surrounding debuffed enemies. I think this gives it more power/utility without just giving it more stats. Also fits the theme of internals having that chain reaction potential to snowball during a fight.
leveled up marines go ham 💀
would be nice if the katowice guys do showmatches of this but I guess that's too distracting. How about the eliminated players though
Old hedgehog looked like a cute RC toy. Not good. New four leg fits with vanguard lore and atlas. 🎉 sieged ones don’t attack ground at all, very important to micro like a ground Viking. So powerful as long as you don’t leave them in wrong transition.
once the new hedgehog looks smoother turning and rotating around I think I'll like it
hehe... dong..
"mom, can we have sc2?"
"we have sc2 at home"
sc2 at home: this.
Damn Zerospace looks way better in my opinion !
Lancer on 30% hp gets hith with 6 Fireballs ! still lives...like its nothing... -.-*
Even for a alpha that kinda plays and feels llike a joke...