What I love about Danmei is that while romance is a big part of the stories, it’s not the main plot. The whole plot is something else, while the romance is something that happens in a part of it. The lores make the romance so much complex that it turns out so beautiful.
Something I think about is that while yes, Danmei and BL in general is defined as a genre written by women for women, I often find that basically everyone who I encounter who enjoys it is LGBT in some form or fashion. I also think that the danmei authors in china have to be completely anonymous so we don't actually know whether they are straight women, they could easily be bi/lesbian or even non-binary or transmasc. I know that there are a lot of people who start reading or writing danmei and realize through engaging with it that they are trans or non-binary in some way.
I’m diasporic chinese and korean, but I know some non-diasporic chinese + koreans people, and there’s the very real fact also that even if danmei authors didn’t have to be completely anon, they maybe still wouldn’t be publicly out because of the harassment queer women *very* frequently face in China. I don’t mean this meanly towards anyone, but in China (as well as Korea) queer women face disproportionate harassment, to the extent that the sapphic social apps in china require intense verification due to the incessant harassment and outing that they face. And in korea queer women’s clubs, as well as queer clubs in general, have *incredibly* strong no filming policies. And for sapphic clubs at least ‘no men’ rules, because of the tendency of men to kinda just… nosy their way in to harass women.
@@bluewilliams4911 That's a really interesting point! In my personal experience, BL was a way for me to explore queerness as a woman in a safe way that was free from mysogyny (because the characters are men, they don't experience that) and from real-life homophobia (because it's fiction). Therefore, it makes sense to me that it is so popular in East Asian countries where queer women face so much repression.
Fun fact, there are also a lot of male gay anon authors who write danmei. It really beats the ‘straight women’ allegations which annoy me to no end. Many straight women enjoy danmei as many gay people enjoy straight fiction. Dark romances aren’t necessarily ‘fetishes’ and danmei actually helped me deal with a lot and explore my identity as a queer person safely without feeling burdened by the constant threat of an unaccepting society. Sorry for venting, this whole thing’s just been on my mind lately
Ikr. And I think it’s really time to stop assuming all bl authors as straight women as I know quite a number of bl authors who are straight, gay males and even trans female, gay female. And in fact, most GL authors are females. So it’s really unnecessary to assume one’s gender and sexuality.
This is why we Asians have very sour feelings regarding the way BL is treated in the English-speaking corners of the Internet. Where I'm from (Vietnam), back in the 2000s, it was EXTREMELY hard to find a depiction of gay people in media that was not stereotypical, offensive, and laced with homophobic and transphobic rhetoric. The first gay movie that I remember that attempted to treat this topic somewhat seriously came out in 2011, and even then it was considered too depressing and high-brow and inaccessible to me, who was a teen at the time (and therefore the chance of being allowed into the theatre to watch such a film by my parents was worse than zero). Western queer media was also not that widespread, so when BL and especially danmei became popular online, it was pretty much the ONLY way a teen can come into contact with positive depictions of gay relationships. I would also say that we Vietnamese might have been in contact with danmei way before any other countries had a chance to, because of the similarities in our language and culture to China, and the surge in popularity of Chinese webnovels. Danmei novels were being translated in the thousands, even by people who did NOT speak Chinese (there was an app that did most of the legwork for you, it sucked but fans actually LEARNED how to work with it through sheer love for the genre). There were countless tropes you could encounter in the genre, both wholesome and dark, complete with the most buck-wild tagging system I've ever seen. I came across danmei on accident even without being a fan, encountering a Mo Dao Zu Shi AMV made by a Viet even BEFORE the donghua and manhua were even a thing (they created it using something that looked like The Sims idk). It was pretty much inescapable if you were on the Internet and had SOME interest in Japanese/Chinese stuff. Obviously as with BL, the genre was initially considered niche and its fans were ridiculed by the dudebros of the Internet. But it did push people to have an open mindset about sexualities, and it helped queer people find themselves and each other. And over the years, even the wider fan spaces have started to accept the existence of gay content that stem from it. Danmei became somewhat synonymous with gay-themed media and shipping, you may even see news outlets use the word to talk about homosexuality in films and shows with a more and more open-minded attitude. Now there has been some heated debate on the use of a Chinese term on Vietnamese products, but it can't be deny that the genre itself influenced a lot of this change in perception. This is not to attribute the progress in Vietnamese LGBTQ+ movement to a Chinese genre, as our own members of the community have worked tirelessly, both online and offline, in real-life activism and pop culture, to lead us to today. But I think in terms of online entertainment, danmei and BL (and baihe/GL!) were the entryway. We went from consuming LGBTQ+ media illegally imported from China and Japan (let's be real no one asked for permission to translate their works back in the day) to producing our own BL shows. I was surprised to see just how many there have been, and pretty much all of them are indie projects, in contrast to the previous decades when serious depictions of gay love could only be made and distributed by big-named filmmakers and massive studios, with heavy tones and often not-so-positive endings. Now we embrace the multifaceted aspect of being queer, we're comfortable with showing how joyful, silly, but also thoughtful queer relationships can be, and that they're not only filled with pain and suffering. All of this is also why the crackdown on queer media through censorship is such a shock to us. We KNOW that danmei and baihe have always been popular in China. We KNOW that Chinese queer IPs have tons of fans, and queer shows can turn a massive profit. And we know that queer Chinese people exist and are loved by their peers. The silence that has been imposed on queer media is such a contrast to the perception of queer love by their young citizens, it is absolutely heartbreaking. And while I find it amusing how, despite being censored at state level, the queerness in danmei is still unmistakably there and is quietly understood by pretty much everyone involved in the production, I'm still saddened knowing how many hoops they have to jump through to preserve their original vision. (I've also heard of instances where productions attempted to adapt danmei by changing the characters to be heterosexual or giving the male leads female love interests, and were met with immense online backlash. Danmei fans do NOT back down, despite censorship.) Anyway sorry for this very long, anecdote-filled tangent lol. Idk what else to say other than while not being a huge reader of the genre (surprise!), I still hold it very dear to my heart.
Eeee thanks so much for also mentioning Baihe too. It's a shame that it tends to be overlooked. But there are a few licenses in English now which I hope helps to propel its popularity internationally.
There is at least one known writer in Danmei who is a gay man. He's called Feitian Yexiang but his common nickname is Chicken Gege. He writes very good books and I highly recommend them! His most popular novel is probably Dinghai Fusheng Records.
@@Kameno-olove your videos! And just for additional information, which may be helpful for your future videos, There are number of open male authors who wrote and drew BL mangas and manhwas-and they’re no different than any female made counterparts. +++Here U are’s author DJun(he has another bl manhua and only other open male bl author I know other than Chicken gege) +++Under the green light’s author JAXX(he’s a super good illustrator as well as an amazing author.GOAT) MAD K’s author Ryo Sumiyoshi(the manga is real fire mad respect) +++Monotone blue’s author Nagabe(he’s popular mangaka,+has wife god, he drew quiet a number of furry YAOI-all heartwarming) +++Boy meets Maria’s author Kosei Eguchi(lowkey bl, but is Lgbtq manga about trans kid) +++Blue flag’s author kaito(not bl-Has a bl undertone, and ends up gay.) +++Boyfriends(webtoon)’s author Ray(Indonesian artist) +++Starting with a lie’s author liang azha (you may not know but I know. Love the works) +++Suicide boy, Highschool boys’ author ParkGee (not sure if he’s cross dresser or trans female now-he(she?) has a yt channel!) +++Until I meet my husband’s author Ryosuke Nanasaki (he’s our beloved Gay activist, wrote a story about his heart clenching experiences, especially about a hardship he faced as a gay guy and how he met his lovely husband. I cried reading the manga) +++thai bl novels of Ninepinta-male author ofcourse, and remember, there are a tons of gay lgbtq novel authors in westerns. there are hundreds of more male BL authors!!! I’ve decided to include only popular ones. (There’s a list on male bl authors too, but only showed a few authors-2page) And fyi, you’ll see male authors the most in Bara sub genre of Yaoi genre. +++also, there was this Japanese tweet said: “according to a BL manga editor, there are male BL manga authors you can’t they’re men from their manga at all-and the editor was tight lipped about who they are.” If you have read a single one of them, you’ll realize--they’re impossible to know they were made by men because gender doesn’t matter AT ALL. I had no idea the author was male when I first introduced to bl and read here u are, as all authors had different styles and storytelling -but then again, they all had the similar subtle jokes and stuffs-just look at Here U are, it’s cute, and fun-similar to other well written bls made by women. Nagabe’s furry yaoi works and Jaxx’s cool asf mainstream badass plots and smuts-GENDER HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH LITERALLY ANYTHING. WERE ALL FKING DIFF WHICH MAKES US SAME. And you can see how chill one of the author is by looking at ParkGee’s livestreams here on YT.
i do love reading mlm romances as a bi guy who didnt really get into reading things like this until well into adulthood. it's also cooll to see queer stories that arent so focused on the coming out and fear of reprocussions of coming out theme. when i read mo ran and wei wuxian as characters for the first time. mo ran specifically being mentioned as bi, and wwx being heavily implied to also be bi, i felt a bit of myself in them as a bi guy who's more into men but still bi.
@@Kameno-o his character is so interesting as a possible look into bi rep considering the whole convoluted mess of his body technically not being his, and it's original owner being a known gay man. his little moment in the book where he wonders if that part of him that likes lwj is a left over from mo xuanyu is kinda funny bc if you look back he always seemed to have a tendency towards both men and women, he just liked people he found pretty
im sorry, but as a war survivor, I've never read anything as real as MDZS's war narrative. not even LOTR. the transgressions, the Machiavellian machinations, the attacks, the war, the torture, the massacres, the war crimes, the internment camps.... I've seen so many Afghan refugee children just like A-Yuan, completely unaware that they'll be killed by the Taliban if they're caught. the way A-Yuan hung onto Jiāng Chéng's leg and he kicked him off w disgust... is so real. I've seen that sneer irl. you can never convince me danmei is frivolous. the hundred sword scene in TGCF keeps me up at night cz it's so real
Honestly I love your input sm, and I agree, especially when you look at the wen clan and how they practice those principles (ie the lotus pier massacre, the way they assert themselves as the authority) But yeah I have no experience like that, but thank you for this comment!
Of course!! Back then I used to believe only gay men should write it, but after also looking into queer women’s experiences AND women’s liberation, I learned a lot more and i’m glad I did.
I apologize for such 😭 but luckily i’m more enlightened and now watched word of honor and I started Modu. (Prob gonna read more once I finish winter begonia)
I think the point you raised about danmei and its queerness being facilitated by its fantasy genre is super interesting and not something mentioned often, at least not in western spaces, where traditional 'high' fantasy tends to reinforce hetero-patriarchal ideals. it's interesting that the opposite seems to be the case here and its popularity as a genre is helping people accept and discover their own queerness. I hope, and so many people are pushing it this way currently, that western fantasy can become similar and help foster/shelter queer fans, not just attract them and make it so they have to write themselves into a space they haven't always been welcome in, if that makes sense.
That and also if you tie it with its roots with bl/yaoi in japan, its fantasy element can also help uplift women’s experience and break free from an industry heavily focused on male views. However I want to acknowledge that danmei is not all fantasy as some are grounded into more realistic or non supernatural stories (like wuxia) so there’s that too
You might get more views on this one since it was put in a HBomberguy recommended channels playlist. :) I knew I needed to see this one out of all of them when wangxian was on the thumbnail because MXTX novels have been my faves for 3+ years
@@Kameno-oahh, I hope you enjoy them! I received my final English vol of tgcf in the mail yesterday and it’s so wild that I can read an official tl now. I can physically flip through it with art made by fan artists I recognize from the online English fan community spaces 💜 Also I have not widened my works beyond devouring erha, but I do know of thousand autumns only through fan art of that sus yet doesn’t seem too evil purple ml and shen qiao but idk much about the plot
As you said - Danmei are great stories first, BL romance is a nice bonus. I have a fun story with that on my own with Danmei - my friend recommended Mo Dao Zu Shi to me, but I had no idea it's a BL, I thought that people just shipped main characters as they always do. So I watched the Donghua - but at the time the first season just ended[it was before covid], so I read the novel, and it was amazing, magical-political-thriller, just couldn't stop, and then I was hit in the face with the Bath Scene - and I completely didn't expect that. I'm not complaining, but wow, 11/10, would recommend it to anyone doing it like that. Sadly no other Danmei will surprise me like that again, but it was an EXPERIENCE.
i came from hbomber immediately chose this video because i love mxtx start with mdzs then tgcf and finish with svsss i love svsss more now because it has more intense emotional stakes and it's way funnier all of her characters are relatable especially as an autistic person and the background characters don't feel like npcs even a sex worker who appeared in a few scenes is a whole person i love her she's great
great video! as a native chinese speaker i’m happy to report your pronunciation was well done on the whole, and you did a great job trying! however, i’d like to point out xie lian is pronounced more like shh-yeah lee-an, and the ‘he’ in luo binghe is pronounced more like ‘huh’ rather than ‘hey’, other than that your pronunciation was more or less understandable! as a queer fem-aligned individual, i also highly recommend checking out baihe! (fun fact: the word baihe itself means lily in chinese, much like the japanese word yuri.) the stories are often written by queer women, and the reading experience is much like reading danmei, and the novels are really beautiful. the most popular author in the english speaking sphere is please don’t laugh, a queer woman, and the two novels of hers i’ve read are jwqs and fgep, and i can’t recommend them enough!
I actually discussed some baihe in my yuri video!! Also thanks for the feedback on my pronunciation, I always loved the way tonal languages are spoken and/or written
Thank You I LOVE Danmei. The was well researched and accurate. You did in 22:00 what took me 3years to put together from RUclipss and Chinese channels. Danmei is about to be huge.
As a huge Danmei fan Im insanely poor now because I bought all the dolls and books- all jokes aside you did a great job explaining Danmei & all the beautiful elements in it :) thanks for making this video
Absolutely lost it when you used footage of Jiang Cheng strangling Wei Wuxian when talking about same sex relationships going from accepted to outlawed lmao, painfully fitting (Also, I found this video via hbomberguy's "Your New Favourite RUclipsrs" playlist!)
Y’all should read Thousand autumns! I only read the first two books but it’s a great story, its compelling and filled with twists and the romance isn’t overpowering. it’s definitely for those who love the dichotomy between seeing the good of the world and the bad, as the characters often discuss the topic.
i dont really get the whole controversy behind Danmei/Yaoi me as gay man myself dont really see any problem with it but i am aware that there is some bad Queer rep in Danmei/Yaoi ps. Dakaretai Otoko/okane ga nai are some of the best pieces of queer media i have ever watched
I think you explained it perfectly. As a lesbian I still find comfort on danmei. I don't feel attracted to the characters on any way but it's a nice love story, idealised but free of the usual "made for men". Also, huge thank you for telling me what's the wlw version name. Cause I've been wanting to get onto those. (Sadly, I think they are far fewer and harder to find)
I recommend Clear and Muddy Loss of Love if you want a pretty good lesbian equivalent. I haven't finished it yet but I've really liked it so far. Be warned it is a revenge story though even if the romance ends with them together.
@@alandoodles It's a shame that Baihe tends to be overlooked. In China Baihe is just as vast, also with many adaptations too. But there are a few licenses in English now which I hope helps to propel its popularity internationally.
okay, but there is non-xianxia danmei, though! I recommend using novel updates to get a sense of what's out there. My personal fav subgenre is unlimited flow -- I highly highly highly recommend Kaleidoscope of Death!
Yep yep!! I noticed a big flaw is I implied that only xianxia danmei exist when there’s a LOT of wuxia/ realistic fiction danmei! Currently reading “Winter Begonia” and that’s more historical fiction considering it’s time in 1930s china. Baihe also has a LOT of Wuxia like FGEP (what I’m currently reading)
I love your video, I'm a really Danmei's fan, so I'm very happy that Danmei is getting more and more popular :,,,,) PD: I want your luck to live near of a bookstore that have MXTX' works 😭😭😭
A lot of queers love BLs, and the ones that tasted DANMEI, they love it wholeheartedly. It seemed like these stories have nothing to do with the audience’s status regarding gender sexuality and age(but don’t be minor) as all audiences would dive deep into the story and find a great comfort in them.
Great essay, but as a SVSSS fan, I feel compelled to point out that there are no underage relationships in that story. SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER Luo Binghe might be hot for teacher, but said teacher is completely oblivious about his student's feelings, doesn't reciprocate, and they don't get together until after he's an adult.
Oh thank you for the correction! I put underage bc in the beginning luo binghe is 14. I put that just in case anyone got uncomfortable for that off the bat.
I’m sorry my English is not very good that I may have misunderstood your content. I feel like you’re saying that Xianxia is created by danmei writers or at least used as a tool to help people accept their queerness? Which I find it may not be true. Because Xianxia or wuxia appeared way more earlier than danmei and was used in many heterosexual male writers web novels. The reason why many famous danmei novel use them may simply just because Chinese people like it and it really sells good. As for why danmei could exist and flourish in china though government is strongly against it. One reason is that the government do not always strictly prohibit it ,for a long time they just don’t care about it as long as you don’t protest or do something concerning politics until danmei became so strong that they no longer ignore it.Some researchers think the reason why BL or danmei is so popular in east Asia is because the culture there suppressed women very much and they just put their dreams into some romance where they themselves don’t exist. They want to see a love that Is equal.And many of them think when they are reading danmei they are consuming “man’s beauty”.as an against to “man view woman’s body as a product”. Another reason I think is what you mentioned in the video, ancient china many famous people take being bi or gay as granted and there is no religion against it.
Actually I remember before danmei came out or say jinjiang became the center of it. there are some influential shipping gay couples in china. One of the most famous one is 瓶邪（pingxie) that even they have been popular for a decade they are the number one shipping in china today.They came from a tomb robbering web novel(another web novel theme Chinese favor)called 盗墓笔记. At that time Chinese people mainly write Bl novels in 贴吧，and they are very different from danmei we see nowadays because they contained so may sexual things!🎉
Ah, sorry if I implied that xianxia and/or wuxia was created bc of Danmei, as I do know that there is more wuxia/xianxia genres that are also straight + non romance stuff. I guess I didn’t address it and only thought in the view of danmei and how it can be interpreted. Also, a reason I said that Xianxia would be popular within Danmei was because it can not only bypass censors, but it can also bring their own culture into such. Thank you for your comment and i’m glad you gave more insight.
Wonderfully done video! I know you said here that you had not looked into it much, but I wonder if you or anyone else in these comments know how to read bahei that's translated to english? Sadly don't know enough chinese to read full novels x.x Also tried searching for videos on bahei on youtube but there seems to be nothing comming up, any recommendations?
Ok so lucky for you, I talked a but about baihe in my yuri video, but unfortunately (afaik) no baihe novels has been translated. However i’ve been trying to make a list of danmei/baihe series to follow up and build more on it. (A dlc to this vid lol) if you got any baihe recs lmk
Hi, I'm here from Hbomb, but to be honest, this vid felt a bit shallow and occasionally misinformed in its examination of danmei and its links to BL? I'm sorry. I get that it's a complicated topic, but this reads more like an ad for MXTX than anything you've researched thoroughly enough to write a paper about. If you had, you'd have more opinions beyond 'I like danmei' and have read some neat articles on the subject, to be frank. Now, for starters, danmei isn't intrinsically linked to xianxia! There's plenty of wuxia, contemporary, science fiction, and even some (sadly too few) plain historical romances. Sometimes even RPF (see also, Fei Tian :P). For another, JJWXC isn't a 'danmei site'. It's Wattpad. As in, an archive/dumping ground/stepping stone to commercial licensing for internet fiction, anything from Naruto self-insert fanfics to incredibly serious queer retellings of folklore, much like our own homegrown Judas/Jesus slash fandom over on AO3. The works are precisely as deep and varied as that, just from a different language and culture. I often find that anglosphere posts/vids about Chinese media almost mythologize Chinese people and their culture, treating signifiers like confucianism, the dao, the whole modern picture of ancient China as depicted in modern fantasy works, etc... with far more seriousness and solemnity than any Chinese fan would. As far as I've seen, netizens are highly political and absolutely savage, while the approach favored by the western danmei fanbase strips danmei of its political and social messaging. Is Bojack Horseman good art? Sure. Would you ever get distracted from the obvious sociopolitical messages in Bojack Horseman to talk about how Todd's beanie is an important and amazing signifier of western stoner culture? No, just like you wouldn't see the presence of elves in fantasy to be a profoundly mystical experience - you're familiar with these tropes, and Chinese people are familiar with theirs, and to imagine otherwise is... basically orientalism? A profoundly infantilizing view of Chinese works, certainly. We've seen this all before with Japanese works being seen as 'apolitical' by western fans who only saw the aesthetics of anime, and this is just that, again. It's liberating for Chinese women, I'm sure, and a valuable genre. But as a longtime fan of BL and reader of MXTX, Meatbun, Priest, and several others at this point, I'd argue that the popular danmei works are quite regressive, in ways that are common to M/M romance media across the board. MXTX, for example, writes with the same rigid top/bottom, dom/sub dynamic that yaoi ran into the ground approximately two decades ago, where raw power and physicality dictate who tops who, with the same attendant rapey behavior from the masc-coded tops. Seme/uke is alive and well here, it's just called gong/shou. There's a transphobic portrayal of a character who is 1:1 a remake of Buffalo Bill in Scum Villain, and generally, her female characters are treated poorly in ways that will feel very familiar if you've ever seen a romance author tear down other women. Several of Priest's works are similarly controversial for their positions on race and class issues. 2Ha at least has a neat position on masc for masc dynamics. Its plot is a chaotic mess that happens mostly in the background, but having a gong (seme) protagonist was refreshing. I'm mentioning this mainly to say that there's nuance here and your video doesn't really touch on any of it beyond making a vague allusion to some people not liking danmei. You could have talked about JJWXC's relationship to its authors, how they've lifted some out of obscurity, or how their contracts encourage sweatshop-style writing of thousands of chapters at a rate of 1/day. Scum Villain is a gleeful parody of stallion novels that's actively in conversation with heterosexual works in the same genre, but also manages to be really terrible to sex workers. The relationship between the gong/shou portrayal in fiction and the concept of '1' and '0' in irl Chinese gay culture. And are the Wen clan in Mo Dao Zu Shi an allegory for Japan's messed up relationship with China? Let women explore the taboo, sure, but critiquing the way we do it isn't inherently misogyny. We can screw up and write some really problematic stuff, just like the men. The reason Japanese BL even had the glowup it did is because Japanese mangaka were in conversation with Japanese LGBTQ+ people actively criticizing their work, and let's not even talk about the geikomi scene. Personally, I think we should allow danmei the space to grow, but not treat it with awe and kid gloves when it occasionally poops on the carpet. ... also, how the heck do you write a yaoi appreciation video about women writing for women and not mention Kaze to Ki no Uta or the year 24 group? Seriously c'mon now😕
I wholeheartedly agree with you. This is a well-meaning but ultimately shallow approach of it. You have touched a really valid reason of why women are captived with it, and I just want to raise another point: misogyny. In a historically patriarchal society, to the point of only men can have their voice heard, some women find escape through immersion of consumed media. It's unfortunately a misguided way for sure.
I do want to touch on your mentions of work of by Priest, Meatbun,... that is popular enough to reach to farther audience (I.E: Western readers). Their character and world-building are, at the same time, regressive and progressive in a very rigid way that's ultimately boiled down to misogyny. The concept of "1" and "0" has been demonstrated above, and Chinese themselves still have a very conservative way of homosexual relationships; one must be the "Top" and the other must be the "Bottom". Very sorry for hijacking your post, your comment shows that you are very well verse in the art of reading danmei haha :)
@@ik2966 Omg, thanks for your kind reply! I'm hardly an expert in danmei, just trying to get into it myself, and mostly bouncing off haha. And no, I don't think you're hijacking. I could talk about this stuff for ages and there's rabbitholes aplenty to tangent off into when it comes to romance writing 😅 I do just want to clarify I'm not aiming to dunk on people whose response to misogyny and the wider hegemony it serves is to bury themselves in escapism. I did that as a tween, and do so to this day lmao. But like, I also despair at how often those problems show up recreated and sexified in fiction as some kind of goal to aim for, instead of doing something genuinely subversive? I think my own lukewarm reception to danmei was probably because it wasn't more different to what came before. For example, I get why people find contemporary CEO/Billionaire romance hot (see also, Silent Reading by Priest, with a side order of copaganda). I do, and I don't consider it misguided, so much as utterly inescapable in my personal searches for romance fiction to the point of frustration. I use fiction to try to escape that stuff and imagine a better future, not one where I, via a self-insert protagonist, learned to love the boot stomping on my face forever because the man wearing it was just so big and sexy! It's all fine if I can ride on his coat-tails to my own seat of feminine social power as his +1! Like... I get that fantasy and it's valid, especially if you come from a conservative background. I also get transposing those thoughts onto a male protagonist in an M/M story, because self-inserting into a woman in such a dangerous situation could be uncomfortable. But also, ick. I want to see something new and strange that makes people totally look at romantic love in a different light. NBC's Hannibal was eight years ago. Like, you guys can write another weird thing, it won't kill you. That said, expecting anything like that from Chinese webnovel authors would be a pretty unfair burden to place on them just because they happen to be writing about romance from a Chinese cultural perspective. I do live in hope, though! Anyway, regarding 0s and 1s, while it can be quite rigid irl, as far as I know it's more complex and ties into self-perceptions of masculinity in the wider Chinese culture(s), with '1' not just being 'top' but seen as an ideal of masculinity that fewer people feel confident enough to ascribe to, and a number of fractional identities like '0.5' being sort of equivalent to 'verse', but... it's also bad in complex ways. People discounting 0.5's as 'basically 0s' because they're not fully top, or viciously tearing down anyone short/slim/small 🍆 or not conventionally attractive who dares to call themselves a 1. There's a freely available sociology paper on it called 'More bottoms than tops? Mediated sexual roles and masculinity assemblage in Chinese gay communities' by Zhiqiu Benson Zhou on the subject that goes into far more detail than I ever could as a layperson 😅Long story short though, if you're familiar with the internal politics of anglo gay spaces, a lot of their troubles with idealized masc bodies = dominant = top (and its inverse) will jump out at you as being... broadly relatable and commonplace? Unconventional danmei without the heteronormative trappings are out there, I'm sure. They were for BL. They're just presently languishing in untranslated obscurity to foreign readers, like half the 'seke' (versatile/switch) M/M stories of Japan still are to this day! I don't know why. Could honestly be for any number of reasons, but as a humble bisexual on the ground it feels like a quiet but powerful group of fans do genuinely want a heteronormative power dynamic above all else, and are alienated if a work doesn't have that, in the same way their fantasies often alienate me. There's something people find threatening about it, certainly. Just like romance works where the protagonist isn't submissive to their romantic lead, or M/F romance with male protagonists, or anything involving consensual non-monogamy/polyamory, knowledgeable depictions of BDSM, etc. Not sure what the common factor is there, and I don't want to speculate baselessly on it. But I think the nascent danmei fandom represents a variation on a theme rather than a major shift in the way romance is being written. I empathize with their hope and enthusiasm, but... yeah. Bleh, sorry. As I said, I can ramble forever on this topic 😬
@@isaacnewton9021 Haha, it's weirdly one of those topic that I can ramble on and on about. As George Orwell said, “If people cannot write well, they cannot think well, and if they cannot think well, others will do their thinking for them". I think it's better to be passionate about what you consume but not blindly chasing it superficially. Anyways, back to the main point. I also an avid reader of Danmei for a long time, I have to admit the escapism nature of it. Earlier works of many prolific authors is representative of the genre's landscape then, "a woman trapped in a situation that they have to stay as a man", and many hetero love story writers dabbled it that too. Of course I might only speak on my experience of a reader, and not actually dwelling on actual valid work of gay men on a board writing platform like that. I would also want to say while there are many progressive LGBT+ worldwide, Chinese readers were barred from globalized internet access (and still are!!), it's possible that they were just been affected by an equally indulgent genre. East Asia literature has a very interesting perspective on old work and new work, and if a new work was rewritten from an old work and make it better, the author had succeed in giving readers a new point of view. While Western literature favors novelty, I think East Asia literature prefer the re-enforcement of existing stories. There are Confucianism beliefs involved too but I'm not gonna elaborate it today. I understand your frustration on the plot too. Why should I be in love with an CEO just because he's a CEO (and coercion, threats and borderline sexual harassment as well...), and if that even happens, would there be forever after? I am just gonna attribute that to the insane social-economic inequalities incredibly prevalent in daily life of the (supposedly Chinese) readers. All of those things unfortunately are very real and exist in society, and some find solace in seeing the main characters have to go through the same thing they supposedly had to be as well. It's a trauma response in way that is unhealthy and very destructive. Hetero story writers also have a genre loosely translated to "slapped face", and I think a lot of it are derivative of it. Your thoughts on "0" and "1" are fully valid and thank you for the recommendation of the paper! I also want to point out that even Western culture discount the idea of "0.5' as well, which is represented by their disdain of Bisexual people. If they dated the opposite sex, they will face skepticism and be chastised. If they dated the same sex, they will be fetishized as well. It's a lose-lose situation, and I'm not surprised when Danmei reflected it even harsher. "0.5" will always be force to be with an opposite sex person, and they are not to be trusted. It's incredibly frustrating. I am not in the LGBT spectrum, but I have consume this genre for a long time. I live in a region that very accessible to East Asia literature, and guaranteed that there are GOOD Danmei. It will take a long, long time, maybe as long as the US have a female president haha. But I think that is the thing about subculture, it will stay underground until it's conventional enough. Unfortunately, two men loving each other, no drama is still too progressive for China. I also rambled a lot as well, please take it with a grain of salt as this is entirely my observation.
I think Yaoi and Danmei in itself is not particularly bad, but I see a lot of fujoshis fetishizing gay relashionships between men. My first BL Anime was Dakaretai Otoko, and I admit that it was really good. But when I started reading BL Mangas I was appalled at the normalization and romantization of rape and domestic abuse. Liking BL/Yaoi/Danmei doesn't make you supportive of LGBT+ people. I've met women who are extremely homophobic but read BL just to fetishize and beat their (metaphorical) meat to it. I don't like fujoshis because a lot of them don't see gay men as real people, just as sex objects. This is similar to how Straight men see gay women. For me, I read BL to insert myself in the one of the male leads which made me realize I was a trans man (although closeted because of conservative parents). I think its kind of weird that BL is mostly a genre written by women for women. Many women argue that they read BL to escape our cis het patriarchal capitalist world, where both male leads are seen as equals. But I see many mangas that have strict roles: The bottom is always feminine and small, and the top manly and strong. Its just another recreation of the Patriarchy. Gay relationships are not the same as hetero relationships. There are no strict roles to abide by. But It would be wrong to say that all BL stories are the same. There are many great BL Mangas. Just don't fetishize people
love your videos! And just for additional information, which may be helpful for your future videos, There are number of open male authors who wrote and drew BL mangas and manhwas-and they’re no different than any female made counterparts. +++Here U are’s author DJun(he has another bl manhua and only other open male bl author I know other than Chicken gege) +++Under the green light’s author JAXX(he’s a super good illustrator as well as an amazing author.GOAT) MAD K’s author Ryo Sumiyoshi(the manga is real fire mad respect) +++Monotone blue’s author Nagabe(he’s popular mangaka,+has wife god, he drew quiet a number of furry YAOI-all heartwarming) +++Boy meets Maria’s author Kosei Eguchi(lowkey bl, but is Lgbtq manga about trans kid) +++Blue flag’s author kaito(not bl-Has a bl undertone, and ends up gay.) +++Boyfriends(webtoon)’s author Ray(Indonesian artist) +++Starting with a lie’s author liang azha (you may not know but I know. Love the works) +++Suicide boy, Highschool boys’ author ParkGee (not sure if he’s cross dresser or trans female now-he(she?) has a yt channel!) +++Until I meet my husband’s author Ryosuke Nanasaki (he’s our beloved Gay activist, wrote a story about his heart clenching experiences, especially about a hardship he faced as a gay guy and how he met his lovely husband. I cried reading the manga) +++thai bl novels of Ninepinta-male author ofcourse, and remember, there are a tons of gay lgbtq novel authors in westerns. there are hundreds of more male BL authors!!! I’ve decided to include only popular ones. (There’s a list on male bl authors too, but only showed a few authors-2page) And fyi, you’ll see male authors the most in Bara sub genre of Yaoi genre. +++also, there was this Japanese tweet said: “according to a BL manga editor, there are male BL manga authors you can’t they’re men from their manga at all-and the editor was tight lipped about who they are.” If you have read a single one of them, you’ll realize--they’re impossible to know they were made by men because gender doesn’t matter AT ALL. I had no idea the author was male when I first introduced to bl and read here u are, as all authors had different styles and storytelling -but then again, they all had the similar subtle jokes and stuffs-just look at Here U are, it’s cute, and fun-similar to other well written bls made by women. Nagabe’s furry yaoi works and Jaxx’s cool asf mainstream badass plots and smuts-GENDER HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH LITERALLY ANYTHING. WERE ALL FKING DIFF WHICH MAKES US SAME. And you can see how chill one of the author is by looking at ParkGee’s livestreams here on YT.
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
Do I sense a trilogy season finale coming up on here?
Nice
@@raggle_productions thank you dear rattus
@@Kameno-o your welcome, beautiful gay cat
What I love about Danmei is that while romance is a big part of the stories, it’s not the main plot. The whole plot is something else, while the romance is something that happens in a part of it.
The lores make the romance so much complex that it turns out so beautiful.
Something I think about is that while yes, Danmei and BL in general is defined as a genre written by women for women, I often find that basically everyone who I encounter who enjoys it is LGBT in some form or fashion. I also think that the danmei authors in china have to be completely anonymous so we don't actually know whether they are straight women, they could easily be bi/lesbian or even non-binary or transmasc. I know that there are a lot of people who start reading or writing danmei and realize through engaging with it that they are trans or non-binary in some way.
I’m diasporic chinese and korean, but I know some non-diasporic chinese + koreans people, and there’s the very real fact also that even if danmei authors didn’t have to be completely anon, they maybe still wouldn’t be publicly out because of the harassment queer women *very* frequently face in China. I don’t mean this meanly towards anyone, but in China (as well as Korea) queer women face disproportionate harassment, to the extent that the sapphic social apps in china require intense verification due to the incessant harassment and outing that they face. And in korea queer women’s clubs, as well as queer clubs in general, have *incredibly* strong no filming policies. And for sapphic clubs at least ‘no men’ rules, because of the tendency of men to kinda just… nosy their way in to harass women.
@@bluewilliams4911 That's a really interesting point! In my personal experience, BL was a way for me to explore queerness as a woman in a safe way that was free from mysogyny (because the characters are men, they don't experience that) and from real-life homophobia (because it's fiction). Therefore, it makes sense to me that it is so popular in East Asian countries where queer women face so much repression.
Fun fact, there are also a lot of male gay anon authors who write danmei. It really beats the ‘straight women’ allegations which annoy me to no end. Many straight women enjoy danmei as many gay people enjoy straight fiction. Dark romances aren’t necessarily ‘fetishes’ and danmei actually helped me deal with a lot and explore my identity as a queer person safely without feeling burdened by the constant threat of an unaccepting society. Sorry for venting, this whole thing’s just been on my mind lately
Ikr. And I think it’s really time to stop assuming all bl authors as straight women as I know quite a number of bl authors who are straight, gay males and even trans female, gay female. And in fact, most GL authors are females. So it’s really unnecessary to assume one’s gender and sexuality.
This is why we Asians have very sour feelings regarding the way BL is treated in the English-speaking corners of the Internet. Where I'm from (Vietnam), back in the 2000s, it was EXTREMELY hard to find a depiction of gay people in media that was not stereotypical, offensive, and laced with homophobic and transphobic rhetoric. The first gay movie that I remember that attempted to treat this topic somewhat seriously came out in 2011, and even then it was considered too depressing and high-brow and inaccessible to me, who was a teen at the time (and therefore the chance of being allowed into the theatre to watch such a film by my parents was worse than zero). Western queer media was also not that widespread, so when BL and especially danmei became popular online, it was pretty much the ONLY way a teen can come into contact with positive depictions of gay relationships.
I would also say that we Vietnamese might have been in contact with danmei way before any other countries had a chance to, because of the similarities in our language and culture to China, and the surge in popularity of Chinese webnovels. Danmei novels were being translated in the thousands, even by people who did NOT speak Chinese (there was an app that did most of the legwork for you, it sucked but fans actually LEARNED how to work with it through sheer love for the genre). There were countless tropes you could encounter in the genre, both wholesome and dark, complete with the most buck-wild tagging system I've ever seen. I came across danmei on accident even without being a fan, encountering a Mo Dao Zu Shi AMV made by a Viet even BEFORE the donghua and manhua were even a thing (they created it using something that looked like The Sims idk). It was pretty much inescapable if you were on the Internet and had SOME interest in Japanese/Chinese stuff.
Obviously as with BL, the genre was initially considered niche and its fans were ridiculed by the dudebros of the Internet. But it did push people to have an open mindset about sexualities, and it helped queer people find themselves and each other. And over the years, even the wider fan spaces have started to accept the existence of gay content that stem from it. Danmei became somewhat synonymous with gay-themed media and shipping, you may even see news outlets use the word to talk about homosexuality in films and shows with a more and more open-minded attitude. Now there has been some heated debate on the use of a Chinese term on Vietnamese products, but it can't be deny that the genre itself influenced a lot of this change in perception.
This is not to attribute the progress in Vietnamese LGBTQ+ movement to a Chinese genre, as our own members of the community have worked tirelessly, both online and offline, in real-life activism and pop culture, to lead us to today. But I think in terms of online entertainment, danmei and BL (and baihe/GL!) were the entryway. We went from consuming LGBTQ+ media illegally imported from China and Japan (let's be real no one asked for permission to translate their works back in the day) to producing our own BL shows. I was surprised to see just how many there have been, and pretty much all of them are indie projects, in contrast to the previous decades when serious depictions of gay love could only be made and distributed by big-named filmmakers and massive studios, with heavy tones and often not-so-positive endings. Now we embrace the multifaceted aspect of being queer, we're comfortable with showing how joyful, silly, but also thoughtful queer relationships can be, and that they're not only filled with pain and suffering.
All of this is also why the crackdown on queer media through censorship is such a shock to us. We KNOW that danmei and baihe have always been popular in China. We KNOW that Chinese queer IPs have tons of fans, and queer shows can turn a massive profit. And we know that queer Chinese people exist and are loved by their peers. The silence that has been imposed on queer media is such a contrast to the perception of queer love by their young citizens, it is absolutely heartbreaking. And while I find it amusing how, despite being censored at state level, the queerness in danmei is still unmistakably there and is quietly understood by pretty much everyone involved in the production, I'm still saddened knowing how many hoops they have to jump through to preserve their original vision. (I've also heard of instances where productions attempted to adapt danmei by changing the characters to be heterosexual or giving the male leads female love interests, and were met with immense online backlash. Danmei fans do NOT back down, despite censorship.)
Anyway sorry for this very long, anecdote-filled tangent lol. Idk what else to say other than while not being a huge reader of the genre (surprise!), I still hold it very dear to my heart.
Thanks so much for taking the time to write this, I learned a lot!
Eeee thanks so much for also mentioning Baihe too. It's a shame that it tends to be overlooked. But there are a few licenses in English now which I hope helps to propel its popularity internationally.
I love your enthusiasm about danmei.
Honestly yeah! Looking back this was just the beginning of my obsession and now I have like…four I got bookmarked and reading on novelupdates lol!!!
There is at least one known writer in Danmei who is a gay man. He's called Feitian Yexiang but his common nickname is Chicken Gege. He writes very good books and I highly recommend them! His most popular novel is probably Dinghai Fusheng Records.
I’ve heard of Chicken Gege! I read some of his work on a link a while back and I hope seven seas can license him for overseas publishing
@@Kameno-olove your videos! And just for additional information, which may be helpful for your future videos,
There are number of open male authors who wrote and drew BL mangas and manhwas-and they’re no different than any female made counterparts.
+++Here U are’s author DJun(he has another bl manhua and only other open male bl author I know other than Chicken gege)
+++Under the green light’s author JAXX(he’s a super good illustrator as well as an amazing author.GOAT)
MAD K’s author Ryo Sumiyoshi(the manga is real fire mad respect)
+++Monotone blue’s author Nagabe(he’s popular mangaka,+has wife god, he drew quiet a number of furry YAOI-all heartwarming)
+++Boy meets Maria’s author Kosei Eguchi(lowkey bl, but is Lgbtq manga about trans kid)
+++Blue flag’s author kaito(not bl-Has a bl undertone, and ends up gay.)
+++Boyfriends(webtoon)’s author Ray(Indonesian artist)
+++Starting with a lie’s author liang azha (you may not know but I know. Love the works)
+++Suicide boy, Highschool boys’ author ParkGee (not sure if he’s cross dresser or trans female now-he(she?) has a yt channel!)
+++Until I meet my husband’s author Ryosuke Nanasaki (he’s our beloved Gay activist, wrote a story about his heart clenching experiences, especially about a hardship he faced as a gay guy and how he met his lovely husband. I cried reading the manga)
+++thai bl novels of Ninepinta-male author ofcourse, and remember, there are a tons of gay lgbtq novel authors in westerns.
there are hundreds of more male BL authors!!! I’ve decided to include only popular ones. (There’s a list on male bl authors too, but only showed a few authors-2page) And fyi, you’ll see male authors the most in Bara sub genre of Yaoi genre.
+++also, there was this Japanese tweet said: “according to a BL manga editor, there are male BL manga authors you can’t they’re men from their manga at all-and the editor was tight lipped about who they are.”
If you have read a single one of them, you’ll realize--they’re impossible to know they were made by men because gender doesn’t matter AT ALL. I had no idea the author was male when I first introduced to bl and read here u are, as all authors had different styles and storytelling -but then again, they all had the similar subtle jokes and stuffs-just look at Here U are, it’s cute, and fun-similar to other well written bls made by women. Nagabe’s furry yaoi works and Jaxx’s cool asf mainstream badass plots and smuts-GENDER HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH LITERALLY ANYTHING. WERE ALL FKING DIFF WHICH MAKES US SAME. And you can see how chill one of the author is by looking at ParkGee’s livestreams here on YT.
i do love reading mlm romances as a bi guy who didnt really get into reading things like this until well into adulthood. it's also cooll to see queer stories that arent so focused on the coming out and fear of reprocussions of coming out theme. when i read mo ran and wei wuxian as characters for the first time. mo ran specifically being mentioned as bi, and wwx being heavily implied to also be bi, i felt a bit of myself in them as a bi guy who's more into men but still bi.
That's 100 puhcent valid I agree. Should've mentioned that wwx is also hinted at being bi too.
@@Kameno-o his character is so interesting as a possible look into bi rep considering the whole convoluted mess of his body technically not being his, and it's original owner being a known gay man. his little moment in the book where he wonders if that part of him that likes lwj is a left over from mo xuanyu is kinda funny bc if you look back he always seemed to have a tendency towards both men and women, he just liked people he found pretty
im sorry, but as a war survivor, I've never read anything as real as MDZS's war narrative. not even LOTR.
the transgressions, the Machiavellian machinations, the attacks, the war, the torture, the massacres, the war crimes, the internment camps....
I've seen so many Afghan refugee children just like A-Yuan, completely unaware that they'll be killed by the Taliban if they're caught.
the way A-Yuan hung onto Jiāng Chéng's leg and he kicked him off w disgust... is so real. I've seen that sneer irl.
you can never convince me danmei is frivolous.
the hundred sword scene in TGCF keeps me up at night cz it's so real
Honestly I love your input sm, and I agree, especially when you look at the wen clan and how they practice those principles (ie the lotus pier massacre, the way they assert themselves as the authority)
But yeah I have no experience like that, but thank you for this comment!
(came here from the hbomberguy playlist
Of course!! Back then I used to believe only gay men should write it, but after also looking into queer women’s experiences AND women’s liberation, I learned a lot more and i’m glad I did.
I love how priest has the least examples at 2:40 despite her having written a shit ton of danmei novels
I apologize for such 😭 but luckily i’m more enlightened and now watched word of honor and I started Modu. (Prob gonna read more once I finish winter begonia)
I think the point you raised about danmei and its queerness being facilitated by its fantasy genre is super interesting and not something mentioned often, at least not in western spaces, where traditional 'high' fantasy tends to reinforce hetero-patriarchal ideals. it's interesting that the opposite seems to be the case here and its popularity as a genre is helping people accept and discover their own queerness. I hope, and so many people are pushing it this way currently, that western fantasy can become similar and help foster/shelter queer fans, not just attract them and make it so they have to write themselves into a space they haven't always been welcome in, if that makes sense.
That and also if you tie it with its roots with bl/yaoi in japan, its fantasy element can also help uplift women’s experience and break free from an industry heavily focused on male views.
However I want to acknowledge that danmei is not all fantasy as some are grounded into more realistic or non supernatural stories (like wuxia) so there’s that too
You might get more views on this one since it was put in a HBomberguy recommended channels playlist. :)
I knew I needed to see this one out of all of them when wangxian was on the thumbnail because MXTX novels have been my faves for 3+ years
I’ve been reading them + thousand autumns it’s so good
@@Kameno-oahh, I hope you enjoy them! I received my final English vol of tgcf in the mail yesterday and it’s so wild that I can read an official tl now. I can physically flip through it with art made by fan artists I recognize from the online English fan community spaces 💜
Also I have not widened my works beyond devouring erha, but I do know of thousand autumns only through fan art of that sus yet doesn’t seem too evil purple ml and shen qiao but idk much about the plot
As you said - Danmei are great stories first, BL romance is a nice bonus. I have a fun story with that on my own with Danmei - my friend recommended Mo Dao Zu Shi to me, but I had no idea it's a BL, I thought that people just shipped main characters as they always do. So I watched the Donghua - but at the time the first season just ended[it was before covid], so I read the novel, and it was amazing, magical-political-thriller, just couldn't stop, and then I was hit in the face with the Bath Scene - and I completely didn't expect that. I'm not complaining, but wow, 11/10, would recommend it to anyone doing it like that. Sadly no other Danmei will surprise me like that again, but it was an EXPERIENCE.
i came from hbomber
immediately chose this video because i love mxtx
start with mdzs then tgcf and finish with svsss
i love svsss more now because it has more intense emotional stakes and it's way funnier
all of her characters are relatable especially as an autistic person
and the background characters don't feel like npcs
even a sex worker who appeared in a few scenes is a whole person
i love her she's great
Tysm!! Also get ready bc i’m thinking of making dlc for this video that highlights more danmei novels and dramas. (It’s free dw)
Great video! Welcome to the damnei family! 💗
great video! as a native chinese speaker i’m happy to report your pronunciation was well done on the whole, and you did a great job trying! however, i’d like to point out xie lian is pronounced more like shh-yeah lee-an, and the ‘he’ in luo binghe is pronounced more like ‘huh’ rather than ‘hey’, other than that your pronunciation was more or less understandable!
as a queer fem-aligned individual, i also highly recommend checking out baihe! (fun fact: the word baihe itself means lily in chinese, much like the japanese word yuri.) the stories are often written by queer women, and the reading experience is much like reading danmei, and the novels are really beautiful. the most popular author in the english speaking sphere is please don’t laugh, a queer woman, and the two novels of hers i’ve read are jwqs and fgep, and i can’t recommend them enough!
I actually discussed some baihe in my yuri video!! Also thanks for the feedback on my pronunciation, I always loved the way tonal languages are spoken and/or written
That was a fantastic video! As someone who's really into LGBT history and foreign culture, this was so interesting!
Awesome thank you mr dreamcast symbol you’re swag
Thank You I LOVE Danmei. The was well researched and accurate. You did in 22:00 what took me 3years to put together from RUclipss and Chinese channels. Danmei is about to be huge.
Hopefully!!! + this video was in my beginner step years and now I hope more danmei aside from the usual gets acknowledged here outside of Asia
As a huge Danmei fan Im insanely poor now because I bought all the dolls and books- all jokes aside you did a great job explaining Danmei & all the beautiful elements in it :) thanks for making this video
Excellent video!!! You explained so much that I don't know how to put into words.
Love from Argentina
Absolutely lost it when you used footage of Jiang Cheng strangling Wei Wuxian when talking about same sex relationships going from accepted to outlawed lmao, painfully fitting
(Also, I found this video via hbomberguy's "Your New Favourite RUclipsrs" playlist!)
Haha thank you! Honestly that scene after his family died was one of my favorite in the novels and the donghua.
Y’all should read Thousand autumns! I only read the first two books but it’s a great story, its compelling and filled with twists and the romance isn’t overpowering. it’s definitely for those who love the dichotomy between seeing the good of the world and the bad, as the characters often discuss the topic.
YOOO I LOVE THOUSAND AUTUMNS SM!!!
@@Kameno-o It’s one of my favorites
Tgcf "more calmer"? HA HA HA oh dear
@@maevaneranque6812 tbf I found MDZS and SVSSS way more exciting than tgcf (also bias bc too 😭)
i dont really get the whole controversy behind Danmei/Yaoi me as gay man myself dont really see any problem with it but i am aware that there is some bad Queer rep in Danmei/Yaoi ps. Dakaretai Otoko/okane ga nai are some of the best pieces of queer media i have ever watched
2ha mentioned 🎊
We love meatbun rahhhh
I think you explained it perfectly. As a lesbian I still find comfort on danmei. I don't feel attracted to the characters on any way but it's a nice love story, idealised but free of the usual "made for men". Also, huge thank you for telling me what's the wlw version name. Cause I've been wanting to get onto those. (Sadly, I think they are far fewer and harder to find)
If you go on some translations or novel sites you’re sure to find some!! It’s just that they aren’t advertised as much sadly…
I recommend Clear and Muddy Loss of Love if you want a pretty good lesbian equivalent. I haven't finished it yet but I've really liked it so far. Be warned it is a revenge story though even if the romance ends with them together.
@@alandoodles It's a shame that Baihe tends to be overlooked. In China Baihe is just as vast, also with many adaptations too. But there are a few licenses in English now which I hope helps to propel its popularity internationally.
okay, but there is non-xianxia danmei, though! I recommend using novel updates to get a sense of what's out there. My personal fav subgenre is unlimited flow -- I highly highly highly recommend Kaleidoscope of Death!
Yep yep!! I noticed a big flaw is I implied that only xianxia danmei exist when there’s a LOT of wuxia/ realistic fiction danmei! Currently reading “Winter Begonia” and that’s more historical fiction considering it’s time in 1930s china. Baihe also has a LOT of Wuxia like FGEP (what I’m currently reading)
I love your video, I'm a really Danmei's fan, so I'm very happy that Danmei is getting more and more popular :,,,,)
PD: I want your luck to live near of a bookstore that have MXTX' works 😭😭😭
It’s NOT that lucky my b&n only has like 2 Danmei books at a TIME and I order the rest on amazon or this comic book shop like a few miles away 😭
A lot of queers love BLs, and the ones that tasted DANMEI, they love it wholeheartedly. It seemed like these stories have nothing to do with the audience’s status regarding gender sexuality and age(but don’t be minor) as all audiences would dive deep into the story and find a great comfort in them.
Yessss a wangxian stan and love jiefei products 😍🥰💖
18:13 well said, this is what danmei/BL/yaoi is to me personally 🥹
Great essay, but as a SVSSS fan, I feel compelled to point out that there are no underage relationships in that story. SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER Luo Binghe might be hot for teacher, but said teacher is completely oblivious about his student's feelings, doesn't reciprocate, and they don't get together until after he's an adult.
Oh thank you for the correction! I put underage bc in the beginning luo binghe is 14. I put that just in case anyone got uncomfortable for that off the bat.
3:34 I saw what you did there
I’m sorry my English is not very good that I may have misunderstood your content. I feel like you’re saying that Xianxia is created by danmei writers or at least used as a tool to help people accept their queerness? Which I find it may not be true. Because Xianxia or wuxia appeared way more earlier than danmei and was used in many heterosexual male writers web novels. The reason why many famous danmei novel use them may simply just because Chinese people like it and it really sells good. As for why danmei could exist and flourish in china though government is strongly against it. One reason is that the government do not always strictly prohibit it ,for a long time they just don’t care about it as long as you don’t protest or do something concerning politics until danmei became so strong that they no longer ignore it.Some researchers think the reason why BL or danmei is so popular in east Asia is because the culture there suppressed women very much and they just put their dreams into some romance where they themselves don’t exist. They want to see a love that Is equal.And many of them think when they are reading danmei they are consuming “man’s beauty”.as an against to “man view woman’s body as a product”. Another reason I think is what you mentioned in the video, ancient china many famous people take being bi or gay as granted and there is no religion against it.
Actually I remember before danmei came out or say jinjiang became the center of it. there are some influential shipping gay couples in china. One of the most famous one is 瓶邪（pingxie) that even they have been popular for a decade they are the number one shipping in china today.They came from a tomb robbering web novel(another web novel theme Chinese favor)called 盗墓笔记. At that time Chinese people mainly write Bl novels in 贴吧，and they are very different from danmei we see nowadays because they contained so may sexual things!🎉
Ah, sorry if I implied that xianxia and/or wuxia was created bc of Danmei, as I do know that there is more wuxia/xianxia genres that are also straight + non romance stuff. I guess I didn’t address it and only thought in the view of danmei and how it can be interpreted.
Also, a reason I said that Xianxia would be popular within Danmei was because it can not only bypass censors, but it can also bring their own culture into such. Thank you for your comment and i’m glad you gave more insight.
@@夜游朝 ooooh please share more about this novel and if there’s ways to read it in English + translated that isn’t a simple google translate.
@@Kameno-o oh sorry, I think I may misunderstood your video! My English is not that good. And thanks a lot for this video and your comment❤️
@@夜游朝 nono dw! I’m always open go discussion and criticism and if I came off like that I apologize! Still thank you for commenting regardless.
Wonderfully done video! I know you said here that you had not looked into it much, but I wonder if you or anyone else in these comments know how to read bahei that's translated to english? Sadly don't know enough chinese to read full novels x.x Also tried searching for videos on bahei on youtube but there seems to be nothing comming up, any recommendations?
Ok so lucky for you, I talked a but about baihe in my yuri video, but unfortunately (afaik) no baihe novels has been translated. However i’ve been trying to make a list of danmei/baihe series to follow up and build more on it. (A dlc to this vid lol) if you got any baihe recs lmk
If you're interested in a Chinese historical fantasy love story between two girls, I recommend "Soulmate Adventure."
Он пытался... 😂
Hi, I'm here from Hbomb, but to be honest, this vid felt a bit shallow and occasionally misinformed in its examination of danmei and its links to BL? I'm sorry. I get that it's a complicated topic, but this reads more like an ad for MXTX than anything you've researched thoroughly enough to write a paper about. If you had, you'd have more opinions beyond 'I like danmei' and have read some neat articles on the subject, to be frank.
Now, for starters, danmei isn't intrinsically linked to xianxia! There's plenty of wuxia, contemporary, science fiction, and even some (sadly too few) plain historical romances. Sometimes even RPF (see also, Fei Tian :P).
For another, JJWXC isn't a 'danmei site'. It's Wattpad. As in, an archive/dumping ground/stepping stone to commercial licensing for internet fiction, anything from Naruto self-insert fanfics to incredibly serious queer retellings of folklore, much like our own homegrown Judas/Jesus slash fandom over on AO3. The works are precisely as deep and varied as that, just from a different language and culture.
I often find that anglosphere posts/vids about Chinese media almost mythologize Chinese people and their culture, treating signifiers like confucianism, the dao, the whole modern picture of ancient China as depicted in modern fantasy works, etc... with far more seriousness and solemnity than any Chinese fan would. As far as I've seen, netizens are highly political and absolutely savage, while the approach favored by the western danmei fanbase strips danmei of its political and social messaging. Is Bojack Horseman good art? Sure. Would you ever get distracted from the obvious sociopolitical messages in Bojack Horseman to talk about how Todd's beanie is an important and amazing signifier of western stoner culture? No, just like you wouldn't see the presence of elves in fantasy to be a profoundly mystical experience - you're familiar with these tropes, and Chinese people are familiar with theirs, and to imagine otherwise is... basically orientalism? A profoundly infantilizing view of Chinese works, certainly. We've seen this all before with Japanese works being seen as 'apolitical' by western fans who only saw the aesthetics of anime, and this is just that, again.
It's liberating for Chinese women, I'm sure, and a valuable genre. But as a longtime fan of BL and reader of MXTX, Meatbun, Priest, and several others at this point, I'd argue that the popular danmei works are quite regressive, in ways that are common to M/M romance media across the board. MXTX, for example, writes with the same rigid top/bottom, dom/sub dynamic that yaoi ran into the ground approximately two decades ago, where raw power and physicality dictate who tops who, with the same attendant rapey behavior from the masc-coded tops. Seme/uke is alive and well here, it's just called gong/shou. There's a transphobic portrayal of a character who is 1:1 a remake of Buffalo Bill in Scum Villain, and generally, her female characters are treated poorly in ways that will feel very familiar if you've ever seen a romance author tear down other women. Several of Priest's works are similarly controversial for their positions on race and class issues.
2Ha at least has a neat position on masc for masc dynamics. Its plot is a chaotic mess that happens mostly in the background, but having a gong (seme) protagonist was refreshing.
I'm mentioning this mainly to say that there's nuance here and your video doesn't really touch on any of it beyond making a vague allusion to some people not liking danmei. You could have talked about JJWXC's relationship to its authors, how they've lifted some out of obscurity, or how their contracts encourage sweatshop-style writing of thousands of chapters at a rate of 1/day. Scum Villain is a gleeful parody of stallion novels that's actively in conversation with heterosexual works in the same genre, but also manages to be really terrible to sex workers. The relationship between the gong/shou portrayal in fiction and the concept of '1' and '0' in irl Chinese gay culture. And are the Wen clan in Mo Dao Zu Shi an allegory for Japan's messed up relationship with China?
Let women explore the taboo, sure, but critiquing the way we do it isn't inherently misogyny. We can screw up and write some really problematic stuff, just like the men. The reason Japanese BL even had the glowup it did is because Japanese mangaka were in conversation with Japanese LGBTQ+ people actively criticizing their work, and let's not even talk about the geikomi scene. Personally, I think we should allow danmei the space to grow, but not treat it with awe and kid gloves when it occasionally poops on the carpet.
... also, how the heck do you write a yaoi appreciation video about women writing for women and not mention Kaze to Ki no Uta or the year 24 group? Seriously c'mon now😕
Thank you for the comment! Sorry if it wasn’t the best, but nonetheless I appreciate your criticism and feedback.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. This is a well-meaning but ultimately shallow approach of it. You have touched a really valid reason of why women are captived with it, and I just want to raise another point: misogyny. In a historically patriarchal society, to the point of only men can have their voice heard, some women find escape through immersion of consumed media. It's unfortunately a misguided way for sure.
I do want to touch on your mentions of work of by Priest, Meatbun,... that is popular enough to reach to farther audience (I.E: Western readers). Their character and world-building are, at the same time, regressive and progressive in a very rigid way that's ultimately boiled down to misogyny. The concept of "1" and "0" has been demonstrated above, and Chinese themselves still have a very conservative way of homosexual relationships; one must be the "Top" and the other must be the "Bottom". Very sorry for hijacking your post, your comment shows that you are very well verse in the art of reading danmei haha :)
@@ik2966 Omg, thanks for your kind reply! I'm hardly an expert in danmei, just trying to get into it myself, and mostly bouncing off haha. And no, I don't think you're hijacking. I could talk about this stuff for ages and there's rabbitholes aplenty to tangent off into when it comes to romance writing 😅
I do just want to clarify I'm not aiming to dunk on people whose response to misogyny and the wider hegemony it serves is to bury themselves in escapism. I did that as a tween, and do so to this day lmao. But like, I also despair at how often those problems show up recreated and sexified in fiction as some kind of goal to aim for, instead of doing something genuinely subversive? I think my own lukewarm reception to danmei was probably because it wasn't more different to what came before.
For example, I get why people find contemporary CEO/Billionaire romance hot (see also, Silent Reading by Priest, with a side order of copaganda). I do, and I don't consider it misguided, so much as utterly inescapable in my personal searches for romance fiction to the point of frustration. I use fiction to try to escape that stuff and imagine a better future, not one where I, via a self-insert protagonist, learned to love the boot stomping on my face forever because the man wearing it was just so big and sexy! It's all fine if I can ride on his coat-tails to my own seat of feminine social power as his +1! Like... I get that fantasy and it's valid, especially if you come from a conservative background. I also get transposing those thoughts onto a male protagonist in an M/M story, because self-inserting into a woman in such a dangerous situation could be uncomfortable. But also, ick. I want to see something new and strange that makes people totally look at romantic love in a different light. NBC's Hannibal was eight years ago. Like, you guys can write another weird thing, it won't kill you.
That said, expecting anything like that from Chinese webnovel authors would be a pretty unfair burden to place on them just because they happen to be writing about romance from a Chinese cultural perspective. I do live in hope, though!
Anyway, regarding 0s and 1s, while it can be quite rigid irl, as far as I know it's more complex and ties into self-perceptions of masculinity in the wider Chinese culture(s), with '1' not just being 'top' but seen as an ideal of masculinity that fewer people feel confident enough to ascribe to, and a number of fractional identities like '0.5' being sort of equivalent to 'verse', but... it's also bad in complex ways. People discounting 0.5's as 'basically 0s' because they're not fully top, or viciously tearing down anyone short/slim/small 🍆 or not conventionally attractive who dares to call themselves a 1. There's a freely available sociology paper on it called 'More bottoms than tops? Mediated sexual roles and masculinity assemblage in Chinese gay communities' by Zhiqiu Benson Zhou on the subject that goes into far more detail than I ever could as a layperson 😅Long story short though, if you're familiar with the internal politics of anglo gay spaces, a lot of their troubles with idealized masc bodies = dominant = top (and its inverse) will jump out at you as being... broadly relatable and commonplace?
Unconventional danmei without the heteronormative trappings are out there, I'm sure. They were for BL. They're just presently languishing in untranslated obscurity to foreign readers, like half the 'seke' (versatile/switch) M/M stories of Japan still are to this day! I don't know why. Could honestly be for any number of reasons, but as a humble bisexual on the ground it feels like a quiet but powerful group of fans do genuinely want a heteronormative power dynamic above all else, and are alienated if a work doesn't have that, in the same way their fantasies often alienate me. There's something people find threatening about it, certainly. Just like romance works where the protagonist isn't submissive to their romantic lead, or M/F romance with male protagonists, or anything involving consensual non-monogamy/polyamory, knowledgeable depictions of BDSM, etc. Not sure what the common factor is there, and I don't want to speculate baselessly on it. But I think the nascent danmei fandom represents a variation on a theme rather than a major shift in the way romance is being written. I empathize with their hope and enthusiasm, but... yeah.
Bleh, sorry. As I said, I can ramble forever on this topic 😬
@@isaacnewton9021 Haha, it's weirdly one of those topic that I can ramble on and on about. As George Orwell said, “If people cannot write well, they cannot think well, and if they cannot think well, others will do their thinking for them". I think it's better to be passionate about what you consume but not blindly chasing it superficially.
Anyways, back to the main point. I also an avid reader of Danmei for a long time, I have to admit the escapism nature of it. Earlier works of many prolific authors is representative of the genre's landscape then, "a woman trapped in a situation that they have to stay as a man", and many hetero love story writers dabbled it that too. Of course I might only speak on my experience of a reader, and not actually dwelling on actual valid work of gay men on a board writing platform like that. I would also want to say while there are many progressive LGBT+ worldwide, Chinese readers were barred from globalized internet access (and still are!!), it's possible that they were just been affected by an equally indulgent genre. East Asia literature has a very interesting perspective on old work and new work, and if a new work was rewritten from an old work and make it better, the author had succeed in giving readers a new point of view. While Western literature favors novelty, I think East Asia literature prefer the re-enforcement of existing stories. There are Confucianism beliefs involved too but I'm not gonna elaborate it today.
I understand your frustration on the plot too. Why should I be in love with an CEO just because he's a CEO (and coercion, threats and borderline sexual harassment as well...), and if that even happens, would there be forever after? I am just gonna attribute that to the insane social-economic inequalities incredibly prevalent in daily life of the (supposedly Chinese) readers. All of those things unfortunately are very real and exist in society, and some find solace in seeing the main characters have to go through the same thing they supposedly had to be as well. It's a trauma response in way that is unhealthy and very destructive. Hetero story writers also have a genre loosely translated to "slapped face", and I think a lot of it are derivative of it.
Your thoughts on "0" and "1" are fully valid and thank you for the recommendation of the paper! I also want to point out that even Western culture discount the idea of "0.5' as well, which is represented by their disdain of Bisexual people. If they dated the opposite sex, they will face skepticism and be chastised. If they dated the same sex, they will be fetishized as well. It's a lose-lose situation, and I'm not surprised when Danmei reflected it even harsher. "0.5" will always be force to be with an opposite sex person, and they are not to be trusted. It's incredibly frustrating.
I am not in the LGBT spectrum, but I have consume this genre for a long time. I live in a region that very accessible to East Asia literature, and guaranteed that there are GOOD Danmei. It will take a long, long time, maybe as long as the US have a female president haha. But I think that is the thing about subculture, it will stay underground until it's conventional enough. Unfortunately, two men loving each other, no drama is still too progressive for China.
I also rambled a lot as well, please take it with a grain of salt as this is entirely my observation.
P r o m o s m 🤩
I think Yaoi and Danmei in itself is not particularly bad, but I see a lot of fujoshis fetishizing gay relashionships between men. My first BL Anime was Dakaretai Otoko, and I admit that it was really good. But when I started reading BL Mangas I was appalled at the normalization and romantization of rape and domestic abuse. Liking BL/Yaoi/Danmei doesn't make you supportive of LGBT+ people. I've met women who are extremely homophobic but read BL just to fetishize and beat their (metaphorical) meat to it. I don't like fujoshis because a lot of them don't see gay men as real people, just as sex objects. This is similar to how Straight men see gay women. For me, I read BL to insert myself in the one of the male leads which made me realize I was a trans man (although closeted because of conservative parents). I think its kind of weird that BL is mostly a genre written by women for women. Many women argue that they read BL to escape our cis het patriarchal capitalist world, where both male leads are seen as equals. But I see many mangas that have strict roles: The bottom is always feminine and small, and the top manly and strong. Its just another recreation of the Patriarchy. Gay relationships are not the same as hetero relationships. There are no strict roles to abide by. But It would be wrong to say that all BL stories are the same. There are many great BL Mangas. Just don't fetishize people
is danmei as a whole not degenerate and subhuman or what
It is actually p based tbqh…
love your videos! And just for additional information, which may be helpful for your future videos,
There are number of open male authors who wrote and drew BL mangas and manhwas-and they’re no different than any female made counterparts.
+++Here U are’s author DJun(he has another bl manhua and only other open male bl author I know other than Chicken gege)
+++Under the green light’s author JAXX(he’s a super good illustrator as well as an amazing author.GOAT)
MAD K’s author Ryo Sumiyoshi(the manga is real fire mad respect)
+++Monotone blue’s author Nagabe(he’s popular mangaka,+has wife god, he drew quiet a number of furry YAOI-all heartwarming)
+++Boy meets Maria’s author Kosei Eguchi(lowkey bl, but is Lgbtq manga about trans kid)
+++Blue flag’s author kaito(not bl-Has a bl undertone, and ends up gay.)
+++Boyfriends(webtoon)’s author Ray(Indonesian artist)
+++Starting with a lie’s author liang azha (you may not know but I know. Love the works)
+++Suicide boy, Highschool boys’ author ParkGee (not sure if he’s cross dresser or trans female now-he(she?) has a yt channel!)
+++Until I meet my husband’s author Ryosuke Nanasaki (he’s our beloved Gay activist, wrote a story about his heart clenching experiences, especially about a hardship he faced as a gay guy and how he met his lovely husband. I cried reading the manga)
+++thai bl novels of Ninepinta-male author ofcourse, and remember, there are a tons of gay lgbtq novel authors in westerns.
there are hundreds of more male BL authors!!! I’ve decided to include only popular ones. (There’s a list on male bl authors too, but only showed a few authors-2page) And fyi, you’ll see male authors the most in Bara sub genre of Yaoi genre.
+++also, there was this Japanese tweet said: “according to a BL manga editor, there are male BL manga authors you can’t they’re men from their manga at all-and the editor was tight lipped about who they are.”
If you have read a single one of them, you’ll realize--they’re impossible to know they were made by men because gender doesn’t matter AT ALL. I had no idea the author was male when I first introduced to bl and read here u are, as all authors had different styles and storytelling -but then again, they all had the similar subtle jokes and stuffs-just look at Here U are, it’s cute, and fun-similar to other well written bls made by women. Nagabe’s furry yaoi works and Jaxx’s cool asf mainstream badass plots and smuts-GENDER HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH LITERALLY ANYTHING. WERE ALL FKING DIFF WHICH MAKES US SAME. And you can see how chill one of the author is by looking at ParkGee’s livestreams here on YT.