Use a dowel pin, and roll it under the tool as you're jogging up, until the pin slides under the tool/insert. That way you're not "crashing" into the work/pallet.
No wonder poor John looks tired all the time. He seems to love to take the longest curviest road to get someplace then when he finally gets there he decides he instantly wants to be someplace else. LOL
Awesome video! Instead of jogging the machine down onto the parallel, use one of those round pins, jog the machine lower than it is, and jog up until the pin rolls under. Much more accurate imo and lower risk of damaging something.
John, at 11:20 or so: nothing wrong with using your radius jaws as they are except for a slight modification. Relieve the center portion of the jaw to a slightly larger radius leaving lands of the original radius about 5/8" (16 mm) wide at the ends of the radius. These lands act like the jaws of a chuck and, having the same radius as the part, will not mar the part finish. If you use V jaws, the line contact will indent the TGP finish.
So with regards to manually touching off tools like that you should always jog the tool slightly lower than the parallel in this case(a ground pin or gauge block is better) and then jog up slowly until the parallel just slides under, then go to the tool table and when you are in the tool length field press the "capture position" button (under the decimal point on the number pad) to directly input the value into the tool length. also you can just probe the top of the parallel rather than setting it with another tool
I love watching all the processes and the mistakes along the way with your troubleshooting. Definitely makes me easier on myself when I make a mistake as we all do!
John search YT for Edge Precision , Peter Stanton he uses a pin to verify tool offset on his big machine when doing multi thousand dollar parts in Ti well worth a look for anyone
Just did my first ever 3D machine tool path on my home build gantry mill yesterday using Fusion 360... A very basic profile piece but radiused the edges with a ball nose mill .. Just a tester in plywood but came out great .. Think im starting to understand the link and passes tabs a bit tabs better now.. Coming from Vectric Cut 2D fusion is kinda intimidating but so packed with functionality. Im loving it.
You had mentioned before that those 4140 slugs are precision ground within .001". In that situation your soft jaws are fine and are probably making more contact than the two points on a v block would. I wouldn't recommend that soft jaw style for raw stock though.
The chip bin you have out back for your whole shop is similar size the the bin for my floor mill, I can fill the whole thing in less than 2 hours when I am running a 8+" facemill
Why don’t just mount a tool holding device on a small granite surface place and bring over a digital height gauge? Zero out on the hsk mounting flange then touch the top of the tool. Input the number.
Hey John! In regards to your fixturing to be able to properly hold the round bar, instead of using a Vee block to hold it, you can use what is known as the three point contact method by relieving a portion of the milled circle on your jaws in the center. Steve Barton has a really good video explaining this theory on his video named "Making the 3 point Contact and Band Saw Fixtures" at 14:27 in the video is where he breaks down the explanation of it. He's a very sharp guy and his channel is full of tips and tricks of doing sub .0001" work, I highly recommend you check it out! Cheers
Hii John, you talking about getting a tool pre-setter , we have one from dmg, but to be real you will give away some accuracy in length and radial measurement. You wont get a constant force like the pull strut will give you in the machine. A heavy tool will measure shorter because it will be more load on the taper than a lightweight tool. And if you press it down by hand u will still get some slight differences which will add up, the toolholder has some and the flange on the presetter will have some inaccuracy.
Hey John...how to check the fit between two circular surfaces...'blue' the parts and you will see the contact points. But 'three' point contact using V-blocks is more repeatable and removes the concerns about stock diameter variations that could be problematic with your circular soft jaws... 👍👍👍
John, are you sure you want a tripod? Won't it get in the way all the time? How about getting a couple of articulated arms that you could anchor in a couple of useful positions, maybe one in the corner of the table and another one on the machine itself to get a view of you operating the controls. Maybe just a Noga Big Boy would do.
I know that if you scroll across the tool table theres a setting that allows you to offset the cutter down when measuring the radius, so there must be a similar setting in the tool table to offset the cutter to the side for the height. Also it's best to set tools to the same height as probe. Just probe something and call it z0, the call the tool out do what you did to set the height on the thing you probed, then go to the tool table, go to height and press the orange z and then press the button with the 4 arrows pointing towards a centre dot
Machining a dovetail in 4140 implies at least to me that you are using this material for a fixture and then intend to grip this lump in a ‘5 axis’ vice, one where you have no inherent repeatability. Yet you still have lots of pallets, only two iirc have ever been used. The thought processes that let the Kern do essentially nothing when it could have already produced hundreds of Norsemans, on very similar fixtures to that used the Mori round the clock for months puzzles me. Why not let the Mori hog out bigger lumps or just get a jobshop to do the heavy work? At least you appear to be letting the Tornos run to produce relatively large batches rather than switching every day to something different.
I would recommend a Nikken E346V+ tool presetter. It's a new model and has lots of features for a reasonable price. I looked at various models and this fitted the bill for me.
As an interim tool height measurement, just use a height gage with a little holder on a surface plate. That's how I used to do it before I had a renishaw probing system. A lot cheaper than $20k
4 minutes ago! Yes! And give the concrete minimum a week. 4” there is plenty, if worried, just use concrete 9Ga mesh minimum, or full grimsmo and use 1/2” (#4)rebar and it will be overkill on 12” square
Maybe instead of a tripod for the filming. You need a gorilla pod or just a clamp with a quick release plate on it. That mounts to the door handle on the kern. So you can just easily pop the camera into that filming location as needed.
I presume you touch off the tools in your Swiss so it’s exactly the same. Just got to find the right button.... always the last button you find Get a dial z setter. Mill a flat on the side of the 5 axis casting and you can set a tool in 20 seconds to microns
It pains me to see you measure the dovetails with a caliper and say "that is still 1 thou big". Please understand that those calipers should not be used for setting tool offsets, they are crude and shouldn't be relied upon for critical measurements. I did the same thing for the first couple years I was machining, upgrading to better and better calipers, but once I learned to use a micrometer for everything, my fits and tolerances really got dialed in. Those dovetails aren't critical dimensions, since they are just clamping surfaces, however if you do need to make a critical measurement and feed that back into the control for comp, the caliper is really the wrong tool. You need a set of Micrometers from 1-6" at your desk and you need to use them religiously. You also need a set of gage pins on your desk (in your cart) and rely on those. Gage blocks are handy for linear dimension, a half decent set of those are also strongly recommended. For many machinists these are tools they acquire as they can afford them, you are making parts on a $1mn machine, you can afford to outfit your cart with some decent metrology tools. You should also look into a proper CMM for measuring your parts, you obsess over details and fits, but you don't seem to quantify those in any official way, a CMM will allow you to do proper inspection and understand what is good and what isn't good. It will also allow you to bin parts (measure and selectively assemble parts that have complimentary tolerances), which is/was very common.
I agree, using a machine of that standard and not using a micrometer or having gage pins is crazy. It's like buying a mclaren and putting wooden wheels on it.
I often see your comments on these videos. You should stop being a smartass. These Grimsmo boys obviously know what they are doing. They aren't running some 'engineering' company out of a shed with some old equipment...
I’m starting to think Grimsmo bought the kern for the brand, accuracy and some of the automation with the pallet changer, not because he wants to make things really accurately. He’s still a self taught machinist, so maybe there is something to say about a 4 year apprenticeship. I agree that a cmm would actually make the kern a highly viable investment, but he makes knives, so it doesn’t really matter if they are within microns. I mean he owns a kern but not a set of Gauge Blocks!!!!!!
@@flatsurfaces1913 The phrase, "all the gear, no idea" unfortunately fits perfectly. He is clearly making decent money to be able to afford a Kern and I can't fault him on his business/social media skills. But he is very far off being a master machinist. In saying all that, it's half the reason I watch him. It reminds me of my apprentice days and its interesting to watch him grow as a machinist.
maybe you can use TT:R-OFFS in the tool table. so the tool does not go into the middle of the laser.so you only have the edge of the tool in. no idea if that will fit either ore if it's possible with your laser probe. but that is what I would try.
I'm not a fan of setting the tooloffsets in CAM. For most toolrelated features it is easier to just adjust the wear offset in the machine. So when you get your toolpresetter, you just have to hammer in those numbers and keep the wear offset. With this you have instantly good parts.
Its kind of interesting that you have a Kern and know so little about machining. And then use Fusion 360 witch is one of simplest and useless camsoftware there is to program it?? I have watched your movies for awaile now but im going to stop because it makes me sick to see someone with that low experience and knowlage run that wonderfull piece of machine.
Use a piece of paper to set your tools, Using another bit of metal will most likely cause the insert to chip. I would of had to give you a written warning by now 🤣🤣
As others have mentioned use a pin to roll under the tool as you jog up. Watch EdgePrecision videos to see the technique in action. He does it for every tool.
So Videography is it's own department now, (as far as tripod procurement goes)? That means he's gonna want his name on his door, desk, and parking spot.
for an fast and easy toolmesurment just take a paper and move it while jogin the z-axis intill the paper catches. then yuo don´t need to wory abut damegin the tool incert.
Super glue a pin of known fixed length onto the bottom of the tool and measure off that, remove it when done. This comment is bound to get greif, thickness of glue etc. Its not exactly bothering those operators who use super glue and masking tape for work holding. as John commented he is not to bothered about the exact micro precision depth.
You don't pour concrete. You cast or place concrete. It implies the care involved in the process. Pouring concrete would be just dumping it off the truck and walking away. I'm a structural engineer and this is just a pet peeve of mine. Also, why not put the Kern chiller outside? It's extremely inefficient to let the AC take that heat outside.
Ugggg. You pour concrete. You can use the same exact argument for the words cast and place. You can place concrete off the truck wherever the chute is pointed.
so when a preformed/casted block is put into a loacation is that set in place ? is set concrete when its gone off/cured, but then again when cement powder goes off it wont mix and usually goes hard in the bag. Potatoe, potato.
Regards the Kern, Johns argument was that if the Kern took chilled air from inside the shop and exhausted the machine heat outside, was it more efficent to have the chiller take the chilled air inside the shop and dump it outside or was it more efficent to dump air back into the shop and have the Air con/HVAC deal with the additional heat. like you i would have exhausted the chiller outside. That could casuse a couple of other issues 1. security putting an access hole into the fabric of the building 2. filtering and legislation implications for dumping the exhausted air. If the chiller took a percentage of chilled air from the room and dumps it back into the room, is that volume causing more of an issue if the chiller is dumping a higher percentage/volume of air outside - making the Air con work harder. ?
Your on a Kern and using a digital caliber, really!! Come on at least an Analog Micrometer or maybe even a Digital Micrometer. Thats like when I was working on a Makino(new) and the boss said "check the parts for a while. whilst it is warming up!!" That sounded ok, until he mentioned the part about measuring that change with a Digital caliper. The small amount the machine is going to "grow" is not within the scope of accuracy of the measuring tool. Waste of time.....
![Eminem - Like My Shit [Official Audio]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vx_IMvFkrfA/mqdefault.jpg)
Use a dowel pin, and roll it under the tool as you're jogging up, until the pin slides under the tool/insert. That way you're not "crashing" into the work/pallet.
youre not a bad guy.
No wonder poor John looks tired all the time. He seems to love to take the longest curviest road to get someplace then when he finally gets there he decides he instantly wants to be someplace else. LOL
Awesome video! Instead of jogging the machine down onto the parallel, use one of those round pins, jog the machine lower than it is, and jog up until the pin rolls under. Much more accurate imo and lower risk of damaging something.
Wow this is an awsome solution. Storing it away for future use.
Loving these vids john! Hopefully you begin to get more viewers so you have a reason to keep making them every day!
"Whoa! That's a big boy. It is bigger and longer than anything I have put on here before."
Can I get a "That's what she said"?
Cody Moore “I’m fed up of using one hand for everything”
John, at 11:20 or so: nothing wrong with using your radius jaws as they are except for a slight modification. Relieve the center portion of the jaw to a slightly larger radius leaving lands of the original radius about 5/8" (16 mm) wide at the ends of the radius. These lands act like the jaws of a chuck and, having the same radius as the part, will not mar the part finish. If you use V jaws, the line contact will indent the TGP finish.
So with regards to manually touching off tools like that you should always jog the tool slightly lower than the parallel in this case(a ground pin or gauge block is better) and then jog up slowly until the parallel just slides under, then go to the tool table and when you are in the tool length field press the "capture position" button (under the decimal point on the number pad) to directly input the value into the tool length. also you can just probe the top of the parallel rather than setting it with another tool
I love watching all the processes and the mistakes along the way with your troubleshooting. Definitely makes me easier on myself when I make a mistake as we all do!
John search YT for Edge Precision , Peter Stanton he uses a pin to verify tool offset on his big machine when doing multi thousand dollar parts in Ti well worth a look for anyone
Just did my first ever 3D machine tool path on my home build gantry mill yesterday using Fusion 360... A very basic profile piece but radiused the edges with a ball nose mill .. Just a tester in plywood but came out great .. Think im starting to understand the link and passes tabs a bit tabs better now.. Coming from Vectric Cut 2D fusion is kinda intimidating but so packed with functionality. Im loving it.
You had mentioned before that those 4140 slugs are precision ground within .001". In that situation your soft jaws are fine and are probably making more contact than the two points on a v block would. I wouldn't recommend that soft jaw style for raw stock though.
Wow, it's loud in your shop! Have you considered anything to mitigate noise? Absorptive panels, moving noisy components outside or enclosing them?
i imagine that would sort of be like asking the crickets to be quiet at night. nature of the beast...
The chip bin you have out back for your whole shop is similar size the the bin for my floor mill, I can fill the whole thing in less than 2 hours when I am running a 8+" facemill
you must work with a lot of aluminum
Why don’t just mount a tool holding device on a small granite surface place and bring over a digital height gauge? Zero out on the hsk mounting flange then touch the top of the tool. Input the number.
Lmfao watching you sell yourself on a tool setter was hilarious lmao done that a few times.
you don't necessarily need to use a special mount just zero out the holder before you insert the tool
Hey John! In regards to your fixturing to be able to properly hold the round bar, instead of using a Vee block to hold it, you can use what is known as the three point contact method by relieving a portion of the milled circle on your jaws in the center. Steve Barton has a really good video explaining this theory on his video named "Making the 3 point Contact and Band Saw Fixtures" at 14:27 in the video is where he breaks down the explanation of it. He's a very sharp guy and his channel is full of tips and tricks of doing sub .0001" work, I highly recommend you check it out! Cheers
Just to save others the search... ruclips.net/video/2jKff4eQU-g/видео.html
@@GOAP68 I appreciate it! I would've done the same had I known how to input the video at the correct time, thank you
Hii John, you talking about getting a tool pre-setter , we have one from dmg, but to be real you will give away some accuracy in length and radial measurement. You wont get a constant force like the pull strut will give you in the machine. A heavy tool will measure shorter because it will be more load on the taper than a lightweight tool. And if you press it down by hand u will still get some
slight differences which will add up, the toolholder has some and the
flange on the presetter will have some inaccuracy.
That makes total sense. Kurios why there are no presenters on which the tool hangs down.
The Nikken has an air supply and the tool taper is pulled into the setter taper to help with consistency.
Why not get yourself one of those Z-axis tool height indicators? They make quick work for setting your tool Z height.
Buy a cheap waterproof canvas and hook tie it over the chip bin, that way water won't get in and animals won't get hurt.
put the tool in and set L to 0
Mill on a pice of metal with that Tool and set Z to 0
Touch Probe that milled surface and you have your Tool length
Hey John...how to check the fit between two circular surfaces...'blue' the parts and you will see the contact points. But 'three' point contact using V-blocks is more repeatable and removes the concerns about stock diameter variations that could be problematic with your circular soft jaws... 👍👍👍
John, are you sure you want a tripod? Won't it get in the way all the time?
How about getting a couple of articulated arms that you could anchor in a couple of useful positions, maybe one in the corner of the table and another one on the machine itself to get a view of you operating the controls. Maybe just a Noga Big Boy would do.
I know that if you scroll across the tool table theres a setting that allows you to offset the cutter down when measuring the radius, so there must be a similar setting in the tool table to offset the cutter to the side for the height. Also it's best to set tools to the same height as probe.
Just probe something and call it z0, the call the tool out do what you did to set the height on the thing you probed, then go to the tool table, go to height and press the orange z and then press the button with the 4 arrows pointing towards a centre dot
Machining a dovetail in 4140 implies at least to me that you are using this material for a fixture and then intend to grip this lump in a ‘5 axis’ vice, one where you have no inherent repeatability. Yet you still have lots of pallets, only two iirc have ever been used.
The thought processes that let the Kern do essentially nothing when it could have already produced hundreds of Norsemans, on very similar fixtures to that used the Mori round the clock for months puzzles me.
Why not let the Mori hog out bigger lumps or just get a jobshop to do the heavy work?
At least you appear to be letting the Tornos run to produce relatively large batches rather than switching every day to something different.
We have a 3 jaw chuck on our 5-Axis for round stuff. Works great.
You know you can manually set tool lengths right?
I would recommend a Nikken E346V+ tool presetter. It's a new model and has lots of features for a reasonable price. I looked at various models and this fitted the bill for me.
Consider getting a RAM Mount with some sort of magnetic base that will grab the camera from you. Simply attach it to the side of the KERN.
magnet tripod above the control for the pallet changer
As an interim tool height measurement, just use a height gage with a little holder on a surface plate. That's how I used to do it before I had a renishaw probing system. A lot cheaper than $20k
4 minutes ago! Yes!
And give the concrete minimum a week.
4” there is plenty, if worried, just use concrete 9Ga mesh minimum, or full grimsmo and use 1/2” (#4)rebar and it will be overkill on 12” square
My life nowadays; work with CNC machines. Go home. Watch videos of CNC machines. Sleep. Repeat.
for measuring dove tail's use adjustable parallel's and gage pins?
and a mic sorry
Maybe instead of a tripod for the filming. You need a gorilla pod or just a clamp with a quick release plate on it. That mounts to the door handle on the kern. So you can just easily pop the camera into that filming location as needed.
I presume you touch off the tools in your Swiss so it’s exactly the same. Just got to find the right button.... always the last button you find
Get a dial z setter. Mill a flat on the side of the 5 axis casting and you can set a tool in 20 seconds to microns
It pains me to see you measure the dovetails with a caliper and say "that is still 1 thou big". Please understand that those calipers should not be used for setting tool offsets, they are crude and shouldn't be relied upon for critical measurements. I did the same thing for the first couple years I was machining, upgrading to better and better calipers, but once I learned to use a micrometer for everything, my fits and tolerances really got dialed in. Those dovetails aren't critical dimensions, since they are just clamping surfaces, however if you do need to make a critical measurement and feed that back into the control for comp, the caliper is really the wrong tool. You need a set of Micrometers from 1-6" at your desk and you need to use them religiously. You also need a set of gage pins on your desk (in your cart) and rely on those. Gage blocks are handy for linear dimension, a half decent set of those are also strongly recommended. For many machinists these are tools they acquire as they can afford them, you are making parts on a $1mn machine, you can afford to outfit your cart with some decent metrology tools. You should also look into a proper CMM for measuring your parts, you obsess over details and fits, but you don't seem to quantify those in any official way, a CMM will allow you to do proper inspection and understand what is good and what isn't good. It will also allow you to bin parts (measure and selectively assemble parts that have complimentary tolerances), which is/was very common.
I agree, using a machine of that standard and not using a micrometer or having gage pins is crazy.
It's like buying a mclaren and putting wooden wheels on it.
I often see your comments on these videos. You should stop being a smartass. These Grimsmo boys obviously know what they are doing. They aren't running some 'engineering' company out of a shed with some old equipment...
I’m starting to think Grimsmo bought the kern for the brand, accuracy and some of the automation with the pallet changer, not because he wants to make things really accurately. He’s still a self taught machinist, so maybe there is something to say about a 4 year apprenticeship.
I agree that a cmm would actually make the kern a highly viable investment, but he makes knives, so it doesn’t really matter if they are within microns.
I mean he owns a kern but not a set of Gauge Blocks!!!!!!
@@flatsurfaces1913 The phrase, "all the gear, no idea" unfortunately fits perfectly. He is clearly making decent money to be able to afford a Kern and I can't fault him on his business/social media skills. But he is very far off being a master machinist.
In saying all that, it's half the reason I watch him. It reminds me of my apprentice days and its interesting to watch him grow as a machinist.
maybe you can use TT:R-OFFS in the tool table. so the tool does not go into the middle of the laser.so you only have the edge of the tool in. no idea if that will fit either ore if it's possible with your laser probe. but that is what I would try.
You could cut a pass with the cutter and then measure the result with the Renishaw.
Could you stick the camera on the side of the kern with a magnetic mount? Tripods tend to get in the way.
I'm not a fan of setting the tooloffsets in CAM. For most toolrelated features it is easier to just adjust the wear offset in the machine. So when you get your toolpresetter, you just have to hammer in those numbers and keep the wear offset. With this you have instantly good parts.
Would love to see you preset your tools with oily cigarette papers on that KERN
Its kind of interesting that you have a Kern and know so little about machining. And then use Fusion 360 witch is one of simplest and useless camsoftware there is to program it??
I have watched your movies for awaile now but im going to stop because it makes me sick to see someone with that low experience and knowlage run that wonderfull piece of machine.
Use a piece of paper to set your tools, Using another bit of metal will most likely cause the insert to chip. I would of had to give you a written warning by now 🤣🤣
Do like edge precision, use a 1/2” gauge pin
Is paper accurate enough for a machine like that. It seems a bit like cutting corners (pun intended) . He should own gage pins or blocks.
As others have mentioned use a pin to roll under the tool as you jog up. Watch EdgePrecision videos to see the technique in action. He does it for every tool.
So Videography is it's own department now, (as far as tripod procurement goes)?
That means he's gonna want his name on his door, desk, and parking spot.
for an fast and easy toolmesurment just take a paper and move it while jogin the z-axis intill the paper catches. then yuo don´t need to wory abut damegin the tool incert.
Amazing Video! Thank you 😀
Super glue a pin of known fixed length onto the bottom of the tool and measure off that, remove it when done. This comment is bound to get greif, thickness of glue etc. Its not exactly bothering those operators who use super glue and masking tape for work holding. as John commented he is not to bothered about the exact micro precision depth.
John Tripod FTW!
Simply use a height gauge !
Mini Norseman folder please
John
I'm looking at the website Rask pages
"helux pattern" = helix
Talk about over thinking something. Us without probes and tool setters touch tools off manually every time.
do a round one, if you do it right its better by far.
6:52 invisible john
You don't pour concrete. You cast or place concrete. It implies the care involved in the process. Pouring concrete would be just dumping it off the truck and walking away. I'm a structural engineer and this is just a pet peeve of mine.
Also, why not put the Kern chiller outside? It's extremely inefficient to let the AC take that heat outside.
Totally agree about the chiller outside. Or at least duct it out so you can still direct it inside in the winter.
Ugggg. You pour concrete. You can use the same exact argument for the words cast and place. You can place concrete off the truck wherever the chute is pointed.
We have a new world champion pedant!
so when a preformed/casted block is put into a loacation is that set in place ? is set concrete when its gone off/cured, but then again when cement powder goes off it wont mix and usually goes hard in the bag. Potatoe, potato.
Regards the Kern, Johns argument was that if the Kern took chilled air from inside the shop and exhausted the machine heat outside, was it more efficent to have the chiller take the chilled air inside the shop and dump it outside or was it more efficent to dump air back into the shop and have the Air con/HVAC deal with the additional heat. like you i would have exhausted the chiller outside. That could casuse a couple of other issues 1. security putting an access hole into the fabric of the building 2. filtering and legislation implications for dumping the exhausted air. If the chiller took a percentage of chilled air from the room and dumps it back into the room, is that volume causing more of an issue if the chiller is dumping a higher percentage/volume of air outside - making the Air con work harder. ?
$20k tool, or a pin as suggested in comments :D
just buy a smaller tool and put it in a shorter holder too
Yes get a tripod
2020 is the year of hindsight... so use a V block. lol
this guy spends money like water got to be alot of money in knifes
well If it's within a few thou undersized(which I bet it is) then you are absolutely fine with those jaws.
Good job not mangling your tool setter; I don't even want to think about what it's worth.
Your on a Kern and using a digital caliber, really!! Come on at least an Analog Micrometer or maybe even a Digital Micrometer. Thats like when I was working on a Makino(new) and the boss said "check the parts for a while. whilst it is warming up!!" That sounded ok, until he mentioned the part about measuring that change with a Digital caliper. The small amount the machine is going to "grow" is not within the scope of accuracy of the measuring tool. Waste of time.....
First