Buffers, Cables, Capacitance, and more... a demo by Pete Thorn (FOR GEEKS ONLY)
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
- An uber-geeky demonstration of the effects of cable length and buffers on your guitar tone.
Check out Pete Thorn's "Guitar Nerd" CD here:
www.cdbaby.com/...
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I like this guy.
I ponder these mysteries every day.
Thank you! I know so many guitarists who need to see this.
What I expected before listening (my prejudices):
1. All 20' long cables sound alike, regardless of cost.
2. All modern pedal buffers sound alike, regardless of maker
3. Cable length matters.
3. Buffering removes negative impact of accumulated cable length.
What my ears heard:
all of the above.
As long as we´re not comparing the sound of batteries from different makers we´re not nerds in my humble opinion.
What familly and others may think of us is of course an other thing......
Thank you for putting out interesting quality videos.
Valuable information for people. It's important to make these kinds of decisions for yourself in order to find your sound. Thanks, Pete!
if you watch this whole thing AND DON'T EVEN OWN A PEDAL BOARD, you're a nerd for sure ;)
as usual, thx for posting Pete, peace from France
I watched the whole thing and I don't even own a guitar!
LOL
i don't even have a pretty good pedal. only a cheap fuzz + a crybaby sounding awful
i hate pedalboards, i wanted to make sure that i was right
Makes you stop and think that everything that you put between the guitar and the amp effects your sound whether it is on or not. Finding the right combination for your taste is the answer I guess. Thanks Pete!
Xtra nerd points if you watched it all and referred back a couple times, then read ALL the comments.
They way I watched this is I listened to all the clips without looking and wrote down what I thought about each one and picked my favorite then I went back and watched to see my results... I liked #1 and #10 the best
It seems that the natural sound is best and all the buffers working together makes the closest to the natural sound
Using inexpensive computer speakers, at 720p, I could only tell the difference between the buffered clips and the unbuffered clips. The clips with no buffer all sounded the same. The clips with a buffer all sounded the same. Great video! I'm definately a gear nerd!
I just purchased a small MOSKY PURE BUFFER. This is a good device. It is like adding a circuit to your amplifier/guitar output bandwidth. Tone is a discussion that something that is always subjective. I like your videos. Thank you Pete.
I liked the 3 boss pedals. .. sounded pretty good... but I may be biased . I have 11 boss effects on my board... I was worried about "true bypass" but who cares when I am happy with my sound
..
It sounds better than true bypass, because you have a low impedance signal after those pedals, that you wouldn't have with all true bypass. I'm getting a ton of boss pedals for a good price right now, because people by and large have yet to fully wake up to what true bypass vs buffered actually does and means and because people unnecessarily hate boss pedals in light of boutique hipster mentality and their ignorance on bypass types.
Put into the context of a band situation at club volume, probably not enough difference to worry about. At that point I am going to dial in whatever is missing or dial out anything too prevalent. I will say I have upgraded all of the cables in my rig in the last year or so, to the best I could afford. Most times I can tell the difference.
To my ears, the 6' straight had the most full bandwidth sound. The next up would either be with the Koko boost or the Tone Freak Buff Puff as the first pedal. This was very interesting. As geeky as it was, I appreciate you doing this.
I appreciate you doing this. On one hand, with the 40' cable you can hear a difference. Nothing a couple of knob twists wouldn't rectify.
What I leaned was...yes....cable length makes a difference. However, it's nothing to get terribly twisted up about.
Couple of knob tweaks can never fix it because no matter what you are tweaking it is lost
Jay Jordan I agree. Especially when your playing with another guitarist and you have distortion. I can tell the difference in my Mids when soloing. I used an Ernie Ball Volume Pedal that wasn't a big problem when I was the lone guitar. But when playing with another band with 3 guitars I was having trouble. Three songs in, and multiple knob adjustments later, I took the Volume Pedal out, and put an old Boss pedal I used for backup at the front. Immediately my tone was cutting through(better than the other lead player actually) and I had a great set. I use a lot of pedals, so anything that sucks tone is unwanted.
what's that boss pedal you're talking about? thx
I spent 4 hours today going through my line 6 M5 and filling it's 24 presets with "clones" of classic/uber expensive pedals. I watched demos of the actual pedals while tweaking parameters for each M5 effect until it was just right. I even changed all the names of the presets to pay homage to the pedals they inspired, which is a drawn out tedious task with the line 6 interface. All of this, and Pete, you've once again made me feel like I'm not the only gear freak nerd out there. Thank you sir
I remember back when I was still playing and I read an interview with Eric Johnson, and the discussion related to tone changes caused by different cables (curly versus straight, people still used curlies back then), effects boxes, and even battery type and strength. Capacitance and impedance matching, etc., were not discussed specifically, but and as you demonstrate, cables, various buffers and boxes DO change the tone ... maybe very subtly, but noticeable if you are carefully listening.
thank you so much for this video, I've always wanted to hear a systematic testing (with proper gears and a variety of buffered pedals) of this idea, and you did it!!! thanks again!!!
damn pete, this was pretty geeky and pretty sweet all at once. gotta say, the strymon buffer was probably the "truest" to "straight-into-amp" to my ears but for the most part the difference in tone, though noticable, was not in any way intolerable or negative.
i currently run a long chain of effects with two Boss pedals (TU-3 & old 80s OC-2) at the front and everything else if true-bypass. granted, my amp needs new tubes but i don't think multiple buffered pedal suck tone at all. great video!
I'm surprised at how decent the boss buffered bypass performed against those boutique brands. I thought the el cap sounded the closest to your first example. Nice demonstration, cheers
I can't really tell the difference...have I been standing directly in front of a loud amplifier for too many years?
And by the way, thanks Pete for taking the time and effort to do this.
Appreciate the video. There were a few that were too bright for my tastes, but I think out these clips I preferred the Strymon. I don't think I can really make an informed choice through my computer speakers though. I would need to hear these in person.
Great experiment Pete. Gotta use headphones and 720p just to hear the slight differences that could be chalked up to pick dynamics.The differences are practically inaudible. You would have to use a scope to pick apart the results. A slight turn of the tone or treble knob could emulate most of the other clips. Maybe our time is better spent playing and practicing new techniques rather than obsessing about insignificant, miniscule perfections on our "tone". Your effort is appreciated. Cheers!
I'm a nerd and I know it. BTW, thank you very much for taking the time to do these videos Pete. If every guitarist were like you, the world would be a much better place..!
I use buffered pedals and true bypass pedals, I use George L's patch cables together with home made Sommer/VanDamme patch cables and Neutrik plugs... never had problem playing through buffered pedals until I bought a Klon clone. This pedal sucked all harmonics from my pickups and made the tone really harsh! My idea is that good buffers are not harmful, but bad buffered pedals can have a dramatic effect degrading the tone! I learned to trust my ears. Thank you PT, you Rock!
Nice video very informative. That 40' cable was the most noticeable but just a little bit of roll off from the treble
Very interesting Pete thanks. Two other tests would have been cable > several TB pedals > amp versus cable > same TB pedals plus one quality buffer > amp. I'm in the camp that thinks that if you have several TB pedals with the associated cabling and connectors in line you may benefit from having a good quality buffer somewhere in the chain.
awesome i was just measuring cables and parameters and this video clears all the myths and ideas i had in my brain. Amazingly.. i've build a speaker cable with thick insulation that gives me around 120-150pf capacitance and it's about 6 ft.. excelent for tone but it's parallel. (no shield) i might give it a try later on.
Pete, you are a wonderful person. Thank uo
To my ear (and believe me, they're shot!!) i really felt that the 40' high end cable had the greatest effect on diminishing the highs. The 6' straight in was the brightest, and all the other setups were very negligible in difference......
There was no 40' high-end cable, that was a cheap one.
The clips with no pedals sound the best to me. There is a slight addeed presence to the top end. to my ear.
Going from the last clip to the first one helps to bring it out. I am also listening on my pair of Adams
This has become such an important issue for me because I've stopped using pedals for the most part and I'm starting to plug straight in and crank a non-master volume amp for my overdrive. I did a similar experiment the other day and discovered just how much I was losing when I started adding cable and pedals. I'm honestly surprised by how big the difference is. Much more than I ever noticed when using pedals for overdrive. Relying on my guitar to push the power tubes into overdrive makes the cable situation all the more important to consider.
I'm going to get a few different lengths of cable for different sized stages and run the shortest possible cable from now on! Obviously you need a few extra feet to put on a show, though
Jake Stewart Music I did the same thing. Took a Volume Pedal out(until I can have it buffered) and I'm using the shortest and highest quality cables I can afford right now. It made an immediate difference in my rhythm work live, and on our live playbacks I can hear a big difference in the leads as well. The mids and highs are where my old rig would falter. Especially the mids.
My take away is that I also fall into the second category. I don't want a long cable run doing ANYTHING to my tone. I like the Asterope cable and the runs with a single buffer in between. I think I like the Strymon buffer best, but I know I might be imagining that, because they are so close. Thank you from a fellow nerd. :)
I watched it to the end..twice :D
Thanks Pete - great job as usual!
Thanks a ton for posting this Pete. Very helpful.
another excellent demo. thank you!
Pete you have REDEEMED YOURSELF....you are a TRUE nerd !!! Luv ya.......
My ears may be tricking me after listening a bunch of times but the Tone Freak Buff Puff path sounds best to me. Not only the top end being retained but perhaps a fuller, more defined upper mids. I've watched this 3 times on separate occasions now. I guess i'm a super nerd. Woohoo!
I used to run my Boss TU2 in the tuner out of my Volume pedal. I think it sounds better in the signal path so now it is the first pedal I plug into. It sounds better to me.
Hey Pete, thanks for all these demos, true geeks can't get enough of it quite frankly. keep them coming please.
Question: What do you estimate is the length of cabling your rig goes through on a given gig? Just curious since you probably play in various venues. Thanks.
Pete...thanks for the great video. Have you ever heard of Creation Audio Labs? Brent Mason uses their MK.4.23 clean Boost Pedal and they have a Redeemer Circuit that takes care of the cable length, etc. issue.
Thank you very much! I like putting a tone sucking mxr stomp or a none true by pass gcb95 before a boss pedal, just to get that warm sounding tone that I love :D yes it did help a lot! Thank you very much again!
None sounded like the short cable run. The buffer brought back in the top end, but in an artificial kind of way. I guess, depressingly, there's no way to truly replicate a short cable run. Unless maybe the Z-cable by the gig rig?
Boss pedals have "ok" to "good" buffers, but there are definitely better buffers out there that are more transparent.
the z-cable is unbelievably good in front of most amps. on some, the effect is less noticable...
What about short good cables with about 6 pedals going into a wireless unit. I never hear about anyone using wireless. I use AKG bug system cause I can switch guitars fast.
For me, it's not actually the high-end loss I worry about. It's the decrease in dynamics. When I role back the volume on my guitar, the distorted signal doesn't decrease in gain by as much as when I'm going straight into the amp with a good quality 3 foot cable. Not only that, but the tone becomes mushy and dark. So I want the effect of a long cable with the volume up full, but not the effect of a long cable and pedals when I clean up the gain using the guitar.
This is awesome Pete, thank you !
it's good stuff.
Heya Pete -- I move around a lot when I play and run a 20+ foot cable from my guitar to my effects. No need for 10 sound clips again :-) But could you run 4-6 clips of a 20 ft cable (with and without buffered pedal) from your guitar to a pedal (TBP and buffered examples) to another 20 ft cable to your amp? Geek squared here, but would be much appreciated for data's sake ;-)
I'm sure I'll watch it through the end several times. That makes me an extra-uber-nerd? ;-) great video, by the way. Thanks for sharing Pete!
Really interesting to hear the differences. I'll say I have in fact heard of Capacitance as a concept before, but the difference between the 6' and 20' is more than I could've imagined. Especially since I'm not even semi-pro and have never needed cables any longer than 6' :)
Pete, I know this might be sacrilege, but have you ever done anything similar using wireless systems? The cable runs would be incredibly short, but obviously something must happen during the radio transmission. Thanks!
Thanks Pete! Great demo!
The Koko boost sounded the most similar to the original tone in my opinion. I think I would definitely be someone who "doesn't mind" the build up of capacitance...depending on the amp! For instance my Engater 120Watt Armageddon sounds great without a buffer and long cable runs however my Victory V40 sounds WOEFUL without a buffer
That's also why Steve vai must've made his evos so trebly.if you don't have allot of pedals and cables in your rig you'll get blasted with too much or ice picky top end harshness. Very cool vid.
As always, great video Pete!. I'm concern about the tone suck of my pedals so that's why my TU-2 has been always off the chain, now I'm thinking to put it on the line, because my tone it's too muddy, Thanks, hope you could do something like this with wireless systems. I want your Bassman too.
To my ears, I thought the 3 boss pedals in bypass had the best tone.
Guess im a nerd after all. Who knew . Ok then, thinkin u do wireless sometime so when u use cables what is ur buffering system ,Mr Pete.
thanks pete, it was very good, but im unsure of certain thing, such as weight you put on when you strum and position of strumming. i guess it is probably what scientist call human error(becuz we cant produced same exact thing twice)
this really make me think about my EQ-ing ,cable and effect i will be using from now on, i had notice my looper(rc2) has effect on my tone, while most TBP pedals are not really effecting on tone wise. thank for tips!
I got out my good head phones for this :) Lol
Yeah I wasn't really a believer in the whole "buffer" magic thing, but this demo really proves the point. Cable lengths really do affect your tone and honestly this really helped me, since i use mostly true bypass and/or digital pedals.
So when my board is done, I'm getting me a buffer :D
The boss pedals aren't a bad thing, he's just demonstrating that if you have 3 true bypass pedals in a row in a long cable run you might lose some top end (and might use a buffer somewhere to combat that) true bypass is great unless you have super long cable runs then you can get into some trouble regarding tone... that's my interpretation at least.
great video. I was hoping to see the spectrum analyzer doohicky from the other video but i could easily hear the difference without actually seeing it.
While the differences may be negligible but noticeable in this context, I have to question whether or not anybody would know the difference in a live situation. For me, my primary tonal requirement is that it doesn't completely suck; beyond that I'm a happy guy. All that matters to me is what is coming out of the cabs; how it gets there is of no consequence.
For me, there was, surprisingly, so much break-up/distortion, in the basic "clean" set up that it confused hearing the differences for me. However, I had just done a starter comparison of my own: Epi 339 direct into Hot Rod Deluxe with a 10 ft. cord, very clean, compared to same into my pedal board (no Boss) and a 20ft. cord to the amp. Big loss of tone/presence through all the cordage. Now, to figure which buffer...
Thank God it's not just me that thinks about this stuff. How about this question... do short patch cords make a difference in sound? For example... a 6" George-L that cost $15 and a 6" Hosa that cost $2?
Shouldn’t the 6 feet of Planet waves cable been on the output of the pedal and the 20 feet of Roadhog first? That way the buffer is compensating for the capacitance build up?
Maybe I’m looking at it wrong.
TC's new pedals are bypass from the factory, but they can be switched to buffer if you ever need one.
Ok, I'm a Nerd!!!! Is there a list somewhere of known pedals with buffers? I'm thinking of maybe just buying a standalone buffer since I'm running 30ft cables to my amps out of my pedalboard, and a wireless system in front of the pedalboard.
I prefer #4-40ft of r.hog cable. I use 25ft to a crybaby then 6ft. between 5 pedals (2 are left on all the time) Than another 25ft going to my amp system & to 2 more pedals separated by 6ft of cable's to the input of the Marshall 100w head & those pedals are always on. I only use whirlwind cable & switch craft ends that it took me 20 yrs to find squashy, ringey ,chimey & harmonic friendly guitar plugs/Jack's that makes the strings bend easily not stiff n stagnant. I spent a fortune to audition & then soder those plugs/jacks, 86ft of cable my limit would be 99ft. But I'm very fussy/strict a tone fanatic. I have other tricks with a few other devices & power cables , distance between pedals (most pedals are hidden boxed up because they are like antennas & everything out there affects the sound & feel. It 's a pain in the ass but we'll worth it - I have an amazing sound & beyond !!!!!!!
like the 3boss pedals tone
Would using active pickups stop this treble loss on long cables? I thought it did? I've also thought about using actives and just going wireless, but had bad experience with the same in the 80's and haven't tried wireless since. Maybe it's better now. I'm pretty picky about my tone even if I just play for fun and the occasional gig I get invited to play!
very helpful and interesting cheers mate
Great demo. Very clear and understandable. Keep it up!
BTW, it seems to me that my guitars are not as loud, responsive and dynamic when I go through an Ibanez AD9 Reissue. Don't know why but it's louder and breaks up better when I go through 11 meters of Fender CS cable just by itself!
I love the tone of the delay, but it seems I'll have to mod it to be true bypass/sell it and get something else and get a decent separate buffer, maybe Visual Sound?
Thank you in advance!
Wow, great video
Hey man, check out the Z Cable from Gigrig. Haven't used one myself but might be what you're looking for.
Hey Pete, great video. Massive nerd question, are those Matrix rack power amps you have behind you? And if so, are they any good for live use? How do they compare to the real 'valve/tube' power section of an amp? Many thanks.
Someone who hasn't played long wouldn't get it. Someone who hasn't played long enough would get too much. Someone who "gets it" will realize that the crowd is drunk and doesn't really care.
Just PLAY!
You do great vids, Pete.
The biggest thing is with no buffer and long cable, the sound won't cut through as well. Have some buffers and an appropriate amount of cable, and the specifics don't matter too much.
I was planning to renew my cables including the cabinet cable. Any suggestions Pete?
Do I get Nerd + points for trying to listen to this on my iPhone?
Just living up to the album title
how do you feel about bullet red white coily cables thinking about getting two thirty footers
Glad you're not a set-builder for Spinal Tap - you seem to have mixed up your inches (") with feet! (') in several of your on-screen texts during the demos in the last half.
Oddly, I found the most noticable difference comes when the Boss TU2 comes in the chain. Otherwise, it all sounds pretty much the same to me, with only minimal difference.
But I know that's due to listening behind my PC, I hear the difference all the time with my cables at home.
I was thinking the same :-) Good cable!
Great video sir... Very informative... Nice job :)
Thanks Pete, very useful. Is labeling the 20ft Road Hog; 20" (instead of 20') in all the captions a nod to Spinal Tap??
It has some difference, but, are they really that different? No, absolutely. Nothing substantial that you can blame some "bad" tone occurring in your signal chain.
Thank you very much :)
You should repost this video, putting the sample 1 between each other sample, because sample 1 is the reference here.
Петя, спасибо!
Bit of a diff subject but does a wireless system hav a buffer built in and so doing away with this problem? Thx
I already asked this month's ago. No answer. I did a test myself with a 25' cable and my wireless. I have a dB-1 buffer/boost 1st in line on my board also. Huge difference. Even with the buffer on and in line, I could hear treble cut with the cable. With the wireless,clean and sharp. So a buffer didn't help my sound with a cable. Also I have 5 Boss pedals and a E-H Soul Food on board,set in buffer position. I have "true bypass" pedals somewhere in the chain I guess. I just don't know for sure since I have 6 modded pedals on my board. I dont know if mods take or add problems.
hey pete! can you please review some tech 21 stuff? ESP. their boost dla delay pedal? thank you veery much. :D
Ebay, there is one out now. Bassman AB165 head.
Moral of the story, Use one buffer in the beginning of the pedalset ( like a bufferd tuner), and don't use more than three buffered pedals ( I could hear the difference between one and three buffered pedals). And use one bufferd pedal at the end of the pedalboard to drive the signal up to the amp :-)
i will speak in favor of short cables in studio and recording, and any other stuff for live, since live don't having a reference this subtle (at least to me) sound degradation is not easily perceived
What if you connect the Boss TU-2 into the tuner plug of the Ernie Ball volumepedal. ;-)
My hearing is not that good anylonger, I couldn't tell the difference. There was a little difference (I think). For this test to be effective for me, I would have to scope the results.
Also, I never heard of any of those cables w/ the exception of Planet Waves. I lshop locally owned music stores, Whirlwind cables are the primary cables sold.
I used to battle hum, but using a 6ft Vai insulted cable with copper shielding inside the strat and behind all the plastic eliminated it.
I think I would have liked to have heard the buffer after the cheap cable as well.
Comprehensive geekery. I like it.
I want your Bassman!!!!!
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