Good vid. Interestingly Gene at Audioholics also swears by having wide fronts in his insane reference system. We also need a running list of 4K UHD discs that support object-based wide fronts.
Exactly! As long as I have a preamp or AVR that supports front wides, I’m going to include if they are supported with any future 4K Blu-ray I might review. 🤘
Interesting review and made me think about my setup. When I built my room, I placed the front L+R far apart with the two subwoofers placed between the center and front speakers. This gives me the benefit of having a wide front stage that envelopes us when watching movies, and perhaps eliminates needing front wides. The same is the case with my surrounds, that are lined up with the fronts, allowing to place the rear tops for atmos well in between, with several feet of distance between the rear speakers. I have high ceilings, like movie theaters, creating a nice open soundstage. Currently I’m just missing the front highs for a 5.2.4, something that I have been negotiating with my wife. So far haven’t missed the surround rear, because like in the movie theaters my surrounds are placed higher up and to the rear, pointed at the listening position. It’s a little atypical for HT, however very similar to the Big D’s and Imax speakers placement. I built my room 14 years ago, and so far have been able to keep up with the surround evolution. Placing the voice of God speaker would be the only challenge. Cheers and appreciate your reviews.
Great video, i was just struggling with this, wondering why i didn't hear anything from the front wides in Star Wars movies. But its weird, right, that Atmos doesn't utilize all of the available speakers. Even more so because in the Denon app, all of the speakers connected to the AVR were lit up, telling me they're all active.
Exactly. It’ll get better as the years go by, but Dolby should’ve set guidelines from the start to mix for a 9.1.6 configuration (at least) when it first became part of the home theater experience.
Well done video. It is worth noting that some of those expensive Pre-Pros can matrix sound to the front wides. This would presumably do a better job than doing it at the player level. I believe the Monoprice HTP-1 is one of them.
Yeah, it’s a small percentage who want or even care for them now. But with Atmos in a home still being relatively new, I think front wides will become more commonplace. We’ll see. 😁🤘
What I've learned is that for most static mixes front wide won't play. Dynamic mixes with objects that move scale to all your speakers. Spare change made a pretty good video about that.
Many movies are a hybrid of a "static" bed channel mix (7.1.2 or 7.1.4) with the occasional active object flying through the sound field. Thats why Elan was hearing most sounds limited to the 7 ground channels and only occasionally passing through the wides. Only a truly active object mix, or one where they specifically mix with the wides in mind will play from the wides or other additional channels regularly (such as the Center Surround that Spare Change has) Top Gun: Maverick is mixed this way.
Thanks for this Ealan. I'm furious about the Atmos mixes as I'm having this problem with my setup... also with the center-back. They use static objects in the place of the speakers and then just mix it just like a channel-based system. Removing any object-based advantage of conforming best to your speaker setup. I'd be interested in full video about this issue. Test with DTS:X content as well, I bet you don't see the same issues. Turns out there is another issue with the center-back in the same way, and it's made even worse because Atmos won't see this as the rear-most speaker when it is, so if your room doesn't allow for rear surround placement properly but a center back could be used to better image the rear soundstage, even though this is supported by a Denon processor and Atmos, the result is your center-back won't be used unless an object is rear of the non-existant rear surround in the mix, independent on whether that speaker is in your setup or not. Just an issue with the Dolby implementation and they aren't going to fix it until they are pressured to do so.
Dolby touted right off the bat that it would conform to whatever your configuration is. Ha! What, did they really not expect the serious audiophiles with huge systems notice this wasn’t true after all? You’re right, though…I need to test it with DTS:X too, since they also claim it’ll conform to whatever configuration you throw at it. I just wish transparency was the goal from the start, i.e. labeling it as a “Static 7.1.4 Atmos Mix” or “Dynamic Atmos Mix,” etc.
@@ealanosborne This exactly! The first page of the Dolby Atmos Installation Guide is all about how Atmos will best utilize your speaker setup (as long as it is within the 24.1.10 specs) and it turns out both the front wides and center back both will not perform correctly... I suspect is the case with all speakers beyond 7.1.4. I did a LOT of homework before I installed the center back to make sure it would work with Atmos. It's quite specifically supported by Denon (x6500H) and Dolby Atmos... yet turns out it is not as supported as I was lead to believe. Technically audio could come from the speaker as it is active if the mix specifically uses it, but not at all how it would logically be expected to work to get you surround back audio where you can't place 2 SB speakers. It DOES work with all things DTS exactly as you'd expect. The receiver asks for 1 or 2 back speakers. They should put a disclaimer that Atmos won't use 1 back speaker as a rear surround in reality and will only be used for specific mixes. So Atmos has an issue where they've given mixers too much room to be lazy with object-based mixing and slapping Atmos on everything... but I also have a problem with the way their decoder works.
Due to a (near miss) hurricane last summer, I had a serious brownout and my AVR was toast. When I built my home 17 years ago, Dolby & such wasn’t much of a thing. When the new AVR came into my 17 year old open floor plan designed home, it was a real head scratcher. I can do 13 channel’s, but I couldn’t figure out if I wanted “wides” or “front height” speakers. The professional guy’s who installed my ten new in wall speakers made the final decision. They realized wides wouldn’t work in my room (lots of time was spent trying to run wires but, no, it didn’t work). They installed the final two speakers as front heights. I really wasn’t happy, until the system was turned on. Suddenly, my front sound stage became enormous! The front heights do not need to provide a ton of sound to be impactful! For the record, all ten of my side and height speakers are identical. Yes, my 17 year old home forced this, ultimately wonderful decision! As sound moves form place to place, it is seamless! When a Star War’s Star Cruiser fly’s from the screen and continues overhead and off to behind me, it sounds real! Give a 7.1.6 setup a serious look. You might also be surprised by your results!
Yes, great video as always. I always wondered how much better a system is with wides. But what you said about the comparison between upmixing PCM and losing object base vs. Bitstream and low activity in wides due to little mixing to the wides makes a lot of sense. I guess thats the same for atmos movies with little height channel mixing. Im curious though, if using bipole/dipole L and R surrounds gives you a similar immersion effect of having front and rear wides, instead of just monopole Surr L/R. I have bipoles as rears in one room, and they are awesome.
That is an interesting idea. Though dipoles ate pretty weird and you would have to be careful that the null don’t mess with the rest of the mix. I have a pair of Jamo C400 Surrounds that I used in a 5.1 for a few years and really liked the effect but it did not work well when I added rears. Love the idea though. It would be a fun experiment 🤩
I’d say about 8-10 feet. Although the best case scenario for front wides is if you have your front soundstage (LCR) behind an acoustically transparent projector screen, so you naturally need to fill in the gap between the screen and surrounds. 🤷♂️
Ealan, I have a 7.2.4 setup at the moment, considering adding front wides when I upgrade my AVR. You didn’t mention any DTS X movies in the video. Have you checked out how often the wides are used in any DTS X movies? Many thanks and great channel.
Technically DTS:X supports up to a 7.1.4 configuration, and DTS:X Pro supports way more than that (up to 32 speakers). Although I need to do more demos again for DTS:X specifically. So thanks for the reminder. 😄
@@cainwhite3538 Oh, gotcha! Then yes, you’ll do fine adding front wides. There is no “DTS:X Pro” content out there. It all stems from DTS:X as a baseline. DTS:X Pro support just allows for better rendering/encoding of discrete audio for any configuration up to 32 speakers. Make sense?
@@ealanosborne Absolutely. I was just wondering if you had listened to any DTS X movies with a DTS X PRO capable receiver to determine how active the front wide speakers are with various movies. In your video, you mentioned how some Atmos encoded movies make use of wides, some don’t. Just looking for feedback for DTS X encoded movies.
Front wides (with a 9.2.4 setup) are underutilized still. More and more Atmos and DTS:X mixes are including support for front wides, but still isn’t the greatest configuration at the moment. I’d say in 2-3 years when large home theater systems (with 9 ear level speakers) are more commonplace - and almost all Atmos mixes support front wides - then I’d recommend it. Until then, go with 7.2.6. 😊
Hi Ealan, what's the best speakers to use for front wide? Can I use the Klipsch 502s for it? Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time and hard work! It never goes unnoticed! 👍
Thanks for the kind words! 🙌 I would probably go with a bookshelf speaker over something like the 502s for front wides. Currently, I use the Aperion Novus Slim N6SC, which work as well. Even something like the Klipsch 600m would be a good option for front wides, if you already have some RP speakers and want to stay timbre matched. 🤘
@@ealanosborne Thanks so much for taking the time to answer my question. I really appreciate it and appreciate all that you do for the community! This definitely helps my decision! Have a fantastic day! 👍
If you're fortunate enough to have a HT room and AV receiver that can accommodate front wides, you probably don't mind spending a little extra on speakers to be more future proof for the 9 ear level channel Atmos and DTS:X mixes.
Hey Ealan, I really enjoy your videos. Now speaking on the front wide channels, what about those same channels as mid height channels? I just happen to have added those channels, but, basically are used as an extra pair of front heights, but, if I ever decide to get one of the processors mentioned or the Denon 6700h, I can than use the extra pair of height channels for either the wides or mid heights. I’ve never seen or remember a video on 6 height channels!
I'm still running a 5.1 system, which is used almost exclusively for music. I get excellent surround imaging between each pair of speakers. That makes it possible to locate a sound anywhere in the front 270° sound stage. The effect isn't so good behind due to room layout. When I eventually upgrade to an Atmos capable system, what could front wides give that is better than I already get?
Not too much, I imagine, given your description of your system and room. Front wides do help in filling that gap between the front soundstage and rear surrounds if there are several feet between. Front wides are DEFINITELY needed (in my opinion) with a projector screen. With the front Left, Center & Right speakers placed behind an acoustically transparent screen, the front wides nicely fill in the gap between the screen and your seat(s).
Not yet. Kind of difficult, since it usually involves purchasing the film or show. That and I’m back to a 7.4.6 system at present, but hopefully soon I’ll be back to having front wides. 🤞🤞
Made my side surround bipoles to throw the sound. The FWL & FWR was more speakers & more wires & I couldn't tell if sound was coming from SR & SL or FWR & FWL. All movies mixed at 5.1, most mixed at 7.1.4 couldn't find any for 9.1
I was thinking about adding a set of wides. I'm wondering if they need to be matching speakers. I have an extra older set of B&W CDN 9NTs i'm using as surrounds and a set of 603 series 2 sitting in storage. I'm thinking I could move those 603s to the surrounds and my the 9NTs to a wide speaker set up. My mains are B&W 703 S2s and Centers is the HTM 71 S2s. I'm wondering if i'm going to notice a tonal shift. I have a Marantz AV10 preamp, paired with 3 different amps to make a 7.2.6 system. I'll need to add two more amp channels, thinking of getting the 2 Emotiva XPA-HC1s and using those to power my mains. Then using the monolith L/R channels on the 3 channel amp to power the wides.
If you sit pretty far from your screen, front wides are def going to make a tonal difference, filling in that gap between you and the screen with music or sweeping sound effects. That and your ear level speakers are more active than height speakers. 🤘 Your setup sounds awesome, BTW. And a Marantz AV10?! Jealous!!! 😄
@@ealanosborne why don't you check out the emotiva xpa diffenetial 3 channel for your front LCR. I really think with summer emotiva discount it is a good throwback to the old emotiva of yesteryear monoblocks. Your channel is great. Focusing on high performance differentiators in the setup and media choices. All for people looking for high-value and and a do it yourself attitude.
Thanks for the rundown, planning the future dream home construction down the line in a few years, where the of course will be a dedicated movie theater built, and was curios about front wide along with six atmos channels. In our current house (only 2,5 years old) we got a 5.1.4 setup built which absolutely revolutionized our movie experience and as such wanted to plan for the ultimate setup, fully knowing that the transition from 5.1 to 5.1.4 will feel more monumental than going full out 13 channels, but hey I love movies and in particular movie sound mixes so might as well plan for the best. Not sure you linked to the pre-amp's and power-amps's you mentioned somewhere already, but if not could you?
That's the time to do it, even if you don't utilize them initially. I wired for 12.4.6 with my theater reno (9 layer base with wides, 3 LCR heights, 6 overheads, subs in the four corners). I probably should have run some wire for side and rear heights too, for a full Auro3D capable set up, but wasn't really considering Aura as a viable format. Wire is cheap though, and so is labor to run it when you are building.
Spare change said no front wides used in ready player one but it works for me. Same thing here. In infinity war wides are active. I've got the av7702. VERY Strange, I dont even recall any dolby atmos movie without wides no matter how old actually and I always check, ACTUAL OBJECTS not upmixing
I've got the older marants av 7702, I think its the only high spec pre amp model for a while that let you run an extra set of wides through phono but not xlr. So I'm able to do 9.2.4. Do the newer ones which use DSU upmix to the wides? I've only been able to do it with dts nueral x unmixer but I lose out on a set of heights if I do
Thanks for the video, I was recently thinking about using my old bookshelf B&W as my front wide. In doing so I would have to buy another amplifier to power them, which would cost me around $1k. After watching your video, I decided it's not worth it to waste another grand on front wide speakers. Thank you very much.
I love your break downs, great editing! My question is ac line filter. When you connected your amp did you experience any hum? Would you recommend getting an Emotiva CMX 2 or 6? Thank you!
I mean sure, there’s some hiss if you put your ear right next to the speaker. But I haven’t yet tested an AC line filter to see if it makes a difference. I’d personally go with the CMX-6 so I can plug all my main components into it - preamp, external amps, etc.
Q: "Who are front wides for?". A:People who listen to a lot of music in Atmos on their system. As someone who mixes music for Atmos I may have some bias, but wides are an absolute MUST for me in music.
Music in proper Atmos is legit. The problem with wides in film is the lack of available channels. Since your limited to 128 channels total, it’s common to mix Dialog into 1 bed, music into another bed, and fx into a third bed. each of those beds is 10 channels so you’ve used up 30 of your 128 channels right there. Seeing as there’s usually far more than 98 different sound effects in the course of a film, some of those effects have to get mixed down into the 7.1.2 bed instead of being able to operate as discrete objects.
I've heard mixed reviews about that emotivia processor, do you have any more in-depth thoughts about it? And if one were to go that route, is that not full separates for less cost than a receiver?? Not sure why emotivia didn't put an HDMI 2.1 in it and slightly bump up the cost to make it more competitive. Don't really see why anyone would buy anything else if they did that.
The MC-1 is temporarily unavailable on their website, so they're still selling out of them quickly. Which also means it's tougher for Emotiva to send me a review unit. I just need to win the lottery so I can buy to my heart's content and review everything everywhere all at once. :) I agree, though - they should've added HDMI 2.1 to make it more future proof. And the XMC-2 and RMC-1 have Dirac Live, so they should've added that to the MC-1 for a slightly higher price, too.
Thanks for this video! I've just upgraded to 9.2.4 with my Stormaudio and indeed, I was disappointed to discover so many Atmos mixes were stuck to 7.1.4 or rarely using wides. This is even worse with gaming in Atmos, absolutely no wide used because no Atmos dynamic objects I guess. Still, when properly used like Gozilla vs Kong or some streaming series (like See on Apple TV), it's stunning!
Whoa! I wish I had a Storm Audio preamp! 😎 And yes! When it’s done right, it sounds amazing with front wides! But it’s slowly getting better. You’ll be glad you made the investment once utilizing front wides becomes more commonplace. 😁
Got the 6700H .. Thinking of going Monolith HTP-1.. ( I like the idea of WebUI) Im fascinated by the Iota.. pretty good option. ( yeah.. studio engineering is really not great.. no standards.. pretty shitty for us enthusiasts.) Enjoying the recent videos.. really like your style and editing =) cheers!!
You could, but it would just be a duplicate of what the front L/R speakers are playing, and not true discrete front wide surround sound information 🤷♂️
It depends on the mix, honestly. If you’re upmixing a 5.1 or 7.1 mix with DTS Neural X, yeah, what comes out of the front wides will be an approximation. But movie mixes with discrete audio coming out of the front wides are becoming more commonplace, thankfully. Dune Part I & II have Atmos mixes with front wide support, as well as Godzilla vs Kong and the remastered Atmos mix of The Matrix, to name a few. 👍
Taking a quick glance at the manual online, it looks like 7.1.4 is the max. I see no mention of a 9.1.2 option. 😕 If it did, it would be the best AVR on the market, even more than what it is already with Dirac Live and THX certification. 🤘
@@ealanosborne I just checked, you can go to 7.1.4. It has 2 zones that I guess let you switch from amplifying LR with Zone 1 but there is still a Zone 2 that idk how it works. Maybe I need to read the manual lol.
I actually put them in when i built my theater7 years ago and did the same for Atmos. I was when i wrote for Audioholics the only one at that time that had it and there was 1 disc that had Atmos lol yep ive been in it with the 3D for mat that long. Plus I act had a 7.2 system when there was no 7.2 discs lol so I try to stay ahead of the curve LOL
@@dfalekulo9138that’s forward thinking, I got rid of 2 speakers on my 7.1 surround when I had an Arcam avr350 which didn’t support Dolby atmos now I have a cinema 50 I wish I hadn’t sold them
Hey Ealan, you mentioned the Denon 6700h, which as you said is expensive, but, doesn’t the ToneWinner AT300,and Emotiva BasX MC1 offer those wide channels at a much lower price point?
I think it;s only a matter of time before Atmos decoding is done on a Mac or a PC and sent as multi channel PCM via USB to a multichannel USB DAC like a Motu Ultralite MK 5 which is a 10 channel Sota Dac and ADC, among other things. That DAC costs $599 and runs rings performance wise around any DAC in an AV receiver. Likewise, they are any number of really inexpensive chip amps like the Aiyima A 07 which will better the performance of those AV receivers for a fraction of their cost. As for adding height channels, why not scour ebay for used surround speakers? Finding four of them for around $200-300 is definitely doable.
I use Final Audio Opus 204’s, 9 of them to be in exact, for a Incredibly immersive experience…. The 204’s go for a cool $450,000 each, worth every penny. It is if money is just showering into your ears. I also use a couple CAT MBX Powered Speakers - $500,000 for my play around speakers.
Front wides would be great with pre-Dolby 70mm 6-track and Cinerama audio mixes. I know DTS-HD MA supports 7.1 with front wides instead of rears. But I don’t think any discs officially use it. I would have loved it if Spartacus (70mm), How the West Was Won (Cinerama), Ben-Hur (70mm), The Sound of Music (70mm), Oklahoma! (70mm), Lawrence of Arabia (70mm) and 2001: A Space Odyssey (70mm) would have purist 7.0 (which is also possible with the DTS-HD MA standard) mixes with front wides instead of rears. Sleeping Beauty was one of the few 70mm films which did not have front wide channels, so it was just 4.0 (5.1 but no LFE and mono rears) since it didn’t even have 4.1 LFE (despite being 4.2, the LFE channels in such mixes are usually duplicates of each other, basically making it 4.1) like Logan’s Run, Alien, The Thing, Streets of Fire, or Star Wars. There were some later 70mm films in traditional 5.1, like The Black Cauldron, Apocalypse Now, Superman: The Movie, and Top Gun. 7.1 wide would also be great for preserving SDDS 7.1 mixes like with the Bad Boys films, the Sam Raimi Spider-Man Trilogy, Surf’s Up, and Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within.
Unfortunately, Emotiva has already bumped the price up $100 on that bas-X processor (to $1099). They have a nasty habit of raising prices every year or so .
Absolutely loving my front wides ! I run a 9.3.4 Atmos/DTS-X Denon system with Emotiva external amps on a 150” projector screen. I have the front wides placed up high. The first time I noticed them was at the start of the movie Christine (4K Dolby Atmos). When the engine starts, the ignition and idle is heard between the left/center/right channels. But as the engine revs up high, the sound shoots up wide and high giving a really cool effect. And yes, Godzilla vs Kong gives my system a total workout, that’s the disc to check out a sound system.
When you say you "have the front wides placed up high," can you elaborate? Are they wall or ceiling mounted? Placed vertically above your L & R towers? Or are they mounted high diagonal from your towers? I am considering front wides, but placing them high up to create a "wall of sound" may work better than having to place another set of stands & speakers (which take up more floor space).
@@keyzone72 They are wall mounted, placed up high nearest to the ceiling, then angled downward and inward toward the centered seating position. I had to find a few different scenes that had sound effects between the wide channels and the front left/right channels so I could adjust the level of the wide channels because wanted the wides to be noticeable, but not over-noticeable. Setting this level and finding what scenes work for this is discretionary so you have to set this to your preference. The opening scene of Christine where the engine starts and begins to rev its engine up works nicely, plus the opening sequence and then the duration of the concert of when Time Cappello is singing “I Still Believe” from The Lost Boys works pretty good, and then pretty much every flight sequence from Top Gun Maverick would probably work too.
@@ThePenguin-rn1lo Thank you for the info on how you mounted them and set the levels. I was curious through, to know where (in relation to your main tower speakers) they were mounted. Vertically above each LEFT and RIGHT tower like an AURO 3D layout ? Or did you space them further out (maybe) 2-3 feet from each tower, and then angle them down and in towards the MLP?
@@keyzone72 And when I say wall mounted, I also mean wall mounted to the left wall and then the right wall, and then in-line to the front stage speakers. So basically these wide speakers are as wide as they can be.
I'm curious to know if it is worth it to go beyond 5.1.4? I tried 7.1 years and if destroyed the surround effect behind me. Same sound from all 4 surround speakers. I never went back. I'm seriously considering building a dedicated home theater for 5.1.4 only but if 7.1.6 is discrete I am willing to step up and do that. Is 7.1.6 discrete?
There is a cheap trick workaround to get front wides in a 7.1.x setup. 1. buy 2 cheap old AVRs that support Dolby Pro Logic II. 2. for the front wide R channel: connect the Front R and surround R preouts of your 7.1-AVR to the direct-in Front R and Front L of your old Pro Logic AVR. 3. Connect the Center-out of your old Pro Logic AVR to your Front Wide R speaker 4. Choose Dolby Pro Logic II on your old AVR. It will create a "center" between your Front R and Surround R - which is your Front Wide. 5. Do the same with the left side. This "trick" ist much cheaper AND the Front Wides will perform in every 7.1 mix.
You don't need speakers all around the room. You only need to use your normal stereo speakers with cross talk cancellation to achieve a true 3 dimensional soundstage.
ignoring consumer adaptation and industry support, psychoacoustics dictates that front wides are no less "worth it" than surround rears. it is a problem that the majority of mixing engineers still are clueless on how to work with object based audio and treat atmos like a channel-based format, which is why wides seem underutilised. Atmos doesn't really care about whether you have wides or not physically, as long as there is an object that either exists or transitions between the fronts and the surround sides, wide channels will be beneficial, as atmos works by playing object sounds from the channels which are closest to the intended position, that's the beauty of object based audio rendering, same applies to dts x (pro)
The problem with Front Wides is the fact that they even exist in the first place just shows that most people don't actually know how to setup their own home theaters properly. Everyone sets their Front L and R speakers literally on the left and right sides of their TV. You're actually supposed to be setting them to the left and right sides of YOUR LISTENING AREA -- to be even more specific, right outside the left and right sides of the seating area itself. This is how you create a proper soundstage. It's always supposed to be wider and larger than your field of vision. When you place the L and R speakers right up to the sides of your TV, they are effectively just serving as center speakers because they're still in the middle of your auditory sensory field. Think about it: your headphone and earbud L and R speakers don't sit in front of your eyes shooting sound at you from the front, do they? No, they literally go the absolute left- and rightmost positions they can over your ears which gives you a perfect soundstage. So why would you place your freestanding speakers in front of your eyes? If you can see them along with your TV screen in your FOV without moving your head, the placement is wrong! They should only be visible in your peripheral vision if at all. I'd even argue they should be further spread out if you have the room to be completely outside your peripheral vision, all the way to the left and right of the room itself if you can. If people would just set up their speakers properly, there'd be no need for Front Wide speakers at all. So why doesn't the audio industry educate people better on how to properly set up their speakers? Because they make more money selling you more receivers and speakers, of course! That's why every promotional picture you ever see of a home theater setup has the L and R speakers right beside the TV. Because now you think you're supposed to set them up that way and then you feel the need to buy Front Wides when you realize your soundstage is too small and now you feel special as join the audio elite by buying even more expensive receivers that can handle Front Wides and a couple of more speakers. If you still really feel the need for Front Wides, here's a great and relatively inexpensive (well, inexpensive in comparison to buying a new A/V receiver and another pair of speakers to serve as Front Wides) little hack that you can use which is what I do: just use bipolar surround speakers as your front L and R speakers and angle them inwards towards the listening area! Not only is the Front Wide area now covered by the soundstage, you'll always have sound in that area and you won't have to jump through the A/VR settings hoops Ealan showed us in this video.
Nonsense. The Dolby guidelines are clear. Theres even a simple demo called "Dolby Leaf" that completely nullifies your assumption. The left and right speakers are atmospheric speakers (the center channel does almost all the work) and need to be in a tight range of 22-30 degrees. If you push them out of that range the "sound cloud" gets destroyed since the seperation of the front stage gets too large and the cohesion gets completely lost. I know because I tried and I realized those guidelines are there for a reason and need to be fullfilled. Otherwise theres no point in doing Atmos at all.
Other than not putting L and R speakers right next to each other, basically nothing you stated matches with any industry standard, any psycho-acoustics study or any advice an acoustician or sound engineer has ever given. L and R speaker placement as wide as you suggest would get a a professional fired.
Cenkolino, Kurt, thanks for your input and I completely get where you are coming from. When I was a beginner in this hobby and didn't experiment as I do now, I too also subscribed to the adhered to standards. As time went on and I started experimenting more, I have come to believe that 1.) At the risk of incurring more of both your wrath, I strongly feel now that some of those standards are flat out wrong and possibly drawn up just to sell us more stuff and 2.) It really does depend on each individual listener. I also live near a theater, have friends with completely decked out home theaters and family with soundbar and surround speaker setups and I always found the same thing with those setups and my initial one: The LCR setup always sounded like a large singular wave from the front. Our ears are omnidirectional and can pick up cues from the sides and tell what direction sounds are coming from. When I finally had enough is when I decided to throw away the accepted standards and truly experiment. In regards to breaking the sound bubble, all I can tell you is that when I've watched Top Gun: Maverick on other setups, when the jets fly in from the left it sounds like it's coming from in front of me (albeit left of center, to be fair) whereas in my setup as I have it now it actually sounds like it's coming all the way from the left. Of course, this is all up to each individual listener as well. What I really want to get across to folks is to not put their speakers right beside their 55" TV which they then sit back 10 - 12 feet from because they saw a picture of that and so monkey see, monkey do. Everyone has to experiment to their own individual tastes to get the best sound possible and not be afraid to go against the grain. All I can tell you is that I'm very happy with my setup and everyone who has gotten a chance to experience it initially thinks I'm crazy and then are absolutely wowed when they experience it.
I would say you are expressing your personal preference but not coherent audio advice. I've had many speaker arrangements over the last 30 years of home theatre. The placement of the L and R speakers is critical to achieve a coherent image and not collapse the sound stage. Just as placing them too close together is wrong, so is placing them too far apart. When watching a movie, the sound that is supposed to be coming from the image should not be coming from the sides of your head, or anywhere close to that. Placing speakers directly on each side of your head focuses the sound image inside your cranium instead of from the screen. This is fine for music, if you aren't trying to recreate the experience of music actually being played in front of you. However, it is not good for movies, where you are supposed to be able to locate the sound as if it's actually coming from in front of you. When sound engineers mix audio for surround sound, they base it on your speakers being at approximate locations. Deviating too far from these locations will not provide the intended audio experience. L and R speakers placed at the correct positions will provide a focused image. Placing them at the wrong locations, could either provide a collapsed or incoherent image. Yes, most homes should probably have their L and R speakers placed further apart but I think you're recommending an extreme that fixes one problem but causes another. I would agree that people should experiment more with speaker placement to achieve the desired sound. However, if the desired sound is what the sound engineer intended, then placing the L and R speakers close to the sides of your head will not be the result.
NOT REALLY GREAT VIDEO …I DO NOT GET IT THIS OBSESSION OF HOW MUCH YOU SPEND FOR YOUR EQUIPMENT AND THE CONSTANT WORRIES THAT YOU SPEND TOO MUCH ON AN AVR. IS IT WORTH 3000 BUCKS OR NOT. I SAY THAT A 3000 $ MORE EXPENSIVE AVR IS DEFINITELY NOT WORSE THAN A 1000 $ CHEAPPER ONE. THAN TELL ME HOW MANY TIMES IN YOUR LIFE YOU BUY AN EXPENSIVE AVR. A FEW TIMES OR THREE TIMES ? I SPENDT MY WHOLE PENSION FOR A DENON X4800H AND FEW B&W SPEAKERS. I AM NOT SORRY FOR THAT. 😂😂😂
Writing in all caps is annoying, you should write in the new double mojo dual all caps option, it lets people know even more how annoying it is for an old guy on a pension to not know how annoying it is for someone to write a WALL of caps (see use of appropriate caps).
I use front wide and yes they are worth it :)
Good vid. Interestingly Gene at Audioholics also swears by having wide fronts in his insane reference system.
We also need a running list of 4K UHD discs that support object-based wide fronts.
Exactly! As long as I have a preamp or AVR that supports front wides, I’m going to include if they are supported with any future 4K Blu-ray I might review. 🤘
Perhaps the best breakdown of Wides that I've seen. Well done.
Thank you very much! 🤘
Interesting review and made me think about my setup. When I built my room, I placed the front L+R far apart with the two subwoofers placed between the center and front speakers. This gives me the benefit of having a wide front stage that envelopes us when watching movies, and perhaps eliminates needing front wides. The same is the case with my surrounds, that are lined up with the fronts, allowing to place the rear tops for atmos well in between, with several feet of distance between the rear speakers. I have high ceilings, like movie theaters, creating a nice open soundstage. Currently I’m just missing the front highs for a 5.2.4, something that I have been negotiating with my wife. So far haven’t missed the surround rear, because like in the movie theaters my surrounds are placed higher up and to the rear, pointed at the listening position. It’s a little atypical for HT, however very similar to the Big D’s and Imax speakers placement. I built my room 14 years ago, and so far have been able to keep up with the surround evolution. Placing the voice of God speaker would be the only challenge. Cheers and appreciate your reviews.
Great video, i was just struggling with this, wondering why i didn't hear anything from the front wides in Star Wars movies. But its weird, right, that Atmos doesn't utilize all of the available speakers. Even more so because in the Denon app, all of the speakers connected to the AVR were lit up, telling me they're all active.
Exactly. It’ll get better as the years go by, but Dolby should’ve set guidelines from the start to mix for a 9.1.6 configuration (at least) when it first became part of the home theater experience.
Great video. Been wondering about Front Wides too, and you have explained the pros and cons very effectively.
Thank you very much!
Well done video. It is worth noting that some of those expensive Pre-Pros can matrix sound to the front wides. This would presumably do a better job than doing it at the player level. I believe the Monoprice HTP-1 is one of them.
As usual, excellent video, and very well explained.. You were the inspiration for setting up my 7.2.4 home theatre... Thanks Ealan !!
Awesome video Ealan! That’s a very steep price tag to get front wides but it’ll make sense for some people.
Yeah, it’s a small percentage who want or even care for them now. But with Atmos in a home still being relatively new, I think front wides will become more commonplace. We’ll see. 😁🤘
What I've learned is that for most static mixes front wide won't play. Dynamic mixes with objects that move scale to all your speakers. Spare change made a pretty good video about that.
Exactly. Wish I had a Trinnov like SpareChange so I could see exactly when and where the action is happening. :)
@@ealanosborne Don't we all. I wish more manufacturers had a feature like that. Or that it didn't cost 15k to get
Many movies are a hybrid of a "static" bed channel mix (7.1.2 or 7.1.4) with the occasional active object flying through the sound field.
Thats why Elan was hearing most sounds limited to the 7 ground channels and only occasionally passing through the wides.
Only a truly active object mix, or one where they specifically mix with the wides in mind will play from the wides or other additional channels regularly (such as the Center Surround that Spare Change has)
Top Gun: Maverick is mixed this way.
Thanks for this Ealan. I'm furious about the Atmos mixes as I'm having this problem with my setup... also with the center-back. They use static objects in the place of the speakers and then just mix it just like a channel-based system. Removing any object-based advantage of conforming best to your speaker setup. I'd be interested in full video about this issue. Test with DTS:X content as well, I bet you don't see the same issues.
Turns out there is another issue with the center-back in the same way, and it's made even worse because Atmos won't see this as the rear-most speaker when it is, so if your room doesn't allow for rear surround placement properly but a center back could be used to better image the rear soundstage, even though this is supported by a Denon processor and Atmos, the result is your center-back won't be used unless an object is rear of the non-existant rear surround in the mix, independent on whether that speaker is in your setup or not. Just an issue with the Dolby implementation and they aren't going to fix it until they are pressured to do so.
Dolby touted right off the bat that it would conform to whatever your configuration is. Ha! What, did they really not expect the serious audiophiles with huge systems notice this wasn’t true after all? You’re right, though…I need to test it with DTS:X too, since they also claim it’ll conform to whatever configuration you throw at it. I just wish transparency was the goal from the start, i.e. labeling it as a “Static 7.1.4 Atmos Mix” or “Dynamic Atmos Mix,” etc.
@@ealanosborne This exactly! The first page of the Dolby Atmos Installation Guide is all about how Atmos will best utilize your speaker setup (as long as it is within the 24.1.10 specs) and it turns out both the front wides and center back both will not perform correctly... I suspect is the case with all speakers beyond 7.1.4.
I did a LOT of homework before I installed the center back to make sure it would work with Atmos. It's quite specifically supported by Denon (x6500H) and Dolby Atmos... yet turns out it is not as supported as I was lead to believe. Technically audio could come from the speaker as it is active if the mix specifically uses it, but not at all how it would logically be expected to work to get you surround back audio where you can't place 2 SB speakers. It DOES work with all things DTS exactly as you'd expect. The receiver asks for 1 or 2 back speakers. They should put a disclaimer that Atmos won't use 1 back speaker as a rear surround in reality and will only be used for specific mixes.
So Atmos has an issue where they've given mixers too much room to be lazy with object-based mixing and slapping Atmos on everything... but I also have a problem with the way their decoder works.
Due to a (near miss) hurricane last summer, I had a serious brownout and my AVR was toast.
When I built my home 17 years ago, Dolby & such wasn’t much of a thing. When the new AVR came into my 17 year old open floor plan designed home, it was a real head scratcher. I can do 13 channel’s, but I couldn’t figure out if I wanted “wides” or “front height” speakers.
The professional guy’s who installed my ten new in wall speakers made the final decision. They realized wides wouldn’t work in my room (lots of time was spent trying to run wires but, no, it didn’t work). They installed the final two speakers as front heights.
I really wasn’t happy, until the system was turned on. Suddenly, my front sound stage became enormous! The front heights do not need to provide a ton of sound to be impactful!
For the record, all ten of my side and height speakers are identical. Yes, my 17 year old home forced this, ultimately wonderful decision! As sound moves form place to place, it is seamless! When a Star War’s Star Cruiser fly’s from the screen and continues overhead and off to behind me, it sounds real!
Give a 7.1.6 setup a serious look. You might also be surprised by your results!
Thanks for your insight! 😁🤘
Yes, great video as always. I always wondered how much better a system is with wides. But what you said about the comparison between upmixing PCM and losing object base vs. Bitstream and low activity in wides due to little mixing to the wides makes a lot of sense. I guess thats the same for atmos movies with little height channel mixing.
Im curious though, if using bipole/dipole L and R surrounds gives you a similar immersion effect of having front and rear wides, instead of just monopole Surr L/R. I have bipoles as rears in one room, and they are awesome.
That is an interesting idea. Though dipoles ate pretty weird and you would have to be careful that the null don’t mess with the rest of the mix.
I have a pair of Jamo C400 Surrounds that I used in a 5.1 for a few years and really liked the effect but it did not work well when I added rears.
Love the idea though. It would be a fun experiment 🤩
That’s what I think, too. It might mess with the whole object-based factor of Atmos and DTS:X 🤷♂️
Can you do video over center channel and how to get clarity when there’s vocals?
I’ll put it on the list! 👍
Smooth bro! I enjoy your videos.
Thanks, Joe! 🙌
Love the Lumon Tee!
Season 2 can’t come soon enough!
What should be the gap between front stage and side surrounds for us to notice front wide speakers?
I’d say about 8-10 feet. Although the best case scenario for front wides is if you have your front soundstage (LCR) behind an acoustically transparent projector screen, so you naturally need to fill in the gap between the screen and surrounds. 🤷♂️
Ealan, I have a 7.2.4 setup at the moment, considering adding front wides when I upgrade my AVR. You didn’t mention any DTS X movies in the video. Have you checked out how often the wides are used in any DTS X movies? Many thanks and great channel.
Technically DTS:X supports up to a 7.1.4 configuration, and DTS:X Pro supports way more than that (up to 32 speakers). Although I need to do more demos again for DTS:X specifically. So thanks for the reminder. 😄
@@ealanosborne I should have specified using a DTS X PRO capable receiver/processor. However the actual content is DTS X.
@@cainwhite3538 Oh, gotcha! Then yes, you’ll do fine adding front wides. There is no “DTS:X Pro” content out there. It all stems from DTS:X as a baseline. DTS:X Pro support just allows for better rendering/encoding of discrete audio for any configuration up to 32 speakers. Make sense?
@@ealanosborne Absolutely. I was just wondering if you had listened to any DTS X movies with a DTS X PRO capable receiver to determine how active the front wide speakers are with various movies. In your video, you mentioned how some Atmos encoded movies make use of wides, some don’t. Just looking for feedback for DTS X encoded movies.
Hey Ealan! Just watched Paranorman on 4k disc and it’s another one to add to the list for lots of front wide use.
Oh nice! Thanks for the heads up!
Yes, the key is having a processor that has a wide synth mode, so you get a wider sound stage even if the mix doesn't support discreet wide channels.
Interesting.
I may build to support 7.1.6 anyway.
Just in case...
What processor do you have?
I'm always wondering is 7.2.6 or 9.2.4? Any thoughts?
Front wides (with a 9.2.4 setup) are underutilized still. More and more Atmos and DTS:X mixes are including support for front wides, but still isn’t the greatest configuration at the moment. I’d say in 2-3 years when large home theater systems (with 9 ear level speakers) are more commonplace - and almost all Atmos mixes support front wides - then I’d recommend it. Until then, go with 7.2.6. 😊
Hi Ealan, what's the best speakers to use for front wide? Can I use the Klipsch 502s for it? Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time and hard work! It never goes unnoticed! 👍
Thanks for the kind words! 🙌 I would probably go with a bookshelf speaker over something like the 502s for front wides. Currently, I use the Aperion Novus Slim N6SC, which work as well. Even something like the Klipsch 600m would be a good option for front wides, if you already have some RP speakers and want to stay timbre matched. 🤘
@@ealanosborne Thanks so much for taking the time to answer my question. I really appreciate it and appreciate all that you do for the community! This definitely helps my decision! Have a fantastic day! 👍
Great video, thanks for the advice!
If you're fortunate enough to have a HT room and AV receiver that can accommodate front wides, you probably don't mind spending a little extra on speakers to be more future proof for the 9 ear level channel Atmos and DTS:X mixes.
Hey Ealan, I really enjoy your videos. Now speaking on the front wide channels, what about those same channels as mid height channels? I just happen to have added those channels, but, basically are used as an extra pair of front heights, but, if I ever decide to get one of the processors mentioned or the Denon 6700h, I can than use the extra pair of height channels for either the wides or mid heights. I’ve never seen or remember a video on 6 height channels!
That’s on the list of upcoming tests! Stay tuned! 😄
Hey Ealan, can you do an update to this video concerning whether we’ve reached the point where front wides are worthwhile? Thanks!
I’ll see what I can do! 😁
@@ealanosborne much appreciated!!
any speaker placement suggestion for front wides ?
As close to equidistant between the fronts and surrounds as possible to fill in that space nicely. 👍
@@ealanosborne thank you so much,
I'm still running a 5.1 system, which is used almost exclusively for music. I get excellent surround imaging between each pair of speakers. That makes it possible to locate a sound anywhere in the front 270° sound stage. The effect isn't so good behind due to room layout. When I eventually upgrade to an Atmos capable system, what could front wides give that is better than I already get?
Not too much, I imagine, given your description of your system and room. Front wides do help in filling that gap between the front soundstage and rear surrounds if there are several feet between.
Front wides are DEFINITELY needed (in my opinion) with a projector screen. With the front Left, Center & Right speakers placed behind an acoustically transparent screen, the front wides nicely fill in the gap between the screen and your seat(s).
Nice video - any update on how many videos support front wides
Not yet. Kind of difficult, since it usually involves purchasing the film or show. That and I’m back to a 7.4.6 system at present, but hopefully soon I’ll be back to having front wides. 🤞🤞
Which would you prefer more, front wides or two sets of surround sides?
Front wides. 2 sets of side surrounds (I think) is only necessary when you have multiple rows of seats. 🤷♂️
Made my side surround bipoles to throw the sound. The FWL & FWR was more speakers & more wires & I couldn't tell if sound was coming from SR & SL or FWR & FWL. All movies mixed at 5.1, most mixed at 7.1.4 couldn't find any for 9.1
I was thinking about adding a set of wides. I'm wondering if they need to be matching speakers. I have an extra older set of B&W CDN 9NTs i'm using as surrounds and a set of 603 series 2 sitting in storage. I'm thinking I could move those 603s to the surrounds and my the 9NTs to a wide speaker set up. My mains are B&W 703 S2s and Centers is the HTM 71 S2s. I'm wondering if i'm going to notice a tonal shift. I have a Marantz AV10 preamp, paired with 3 different amps to make a 7.2.6 system. I'll need to add two more amp channels, thinking of getting the 2 Emotiva XPA-HC1s and using those to power my mains. Then using the monolith L/R channels on the 3 channel amp to power the wides.
If you sit pretty far from your screen, front wides are def going to make a tonal difference, filling in that gap between you and the screen with music or sweeping sound effects. That and your ear level speakers are more active than height speakers. 🤘 Your setup sounds awesome, BTW. And a Marantz AV10?! Jealous!!! 😄
I joined.
What amplifiers are you using?
Outlaw Audio Model 7000x and Emotiva BasX amp
@@ealanosborne why don't you check out the emotiva xpa diffenetial 3 channel for your front LCR. I really think with summer emotiva discount it is a good throwback to the old emotiva of yesteryear monoblocks.
Your channel is great. Focusing on high performance differentiators in the setup and media choices. All for people looking for high-value and and a do it yourself attitude.
Thanks for the rundown, planning the future dream home construction down the line in a few years, where the of course will be a dedicated movie theater built, and was curios about front wide along with six atmos channels.
In our current house (only 2,5 years old) we got a 5.1.4 setup built which absolutely revolutionized our movie experience and as such wanted to plan for the ultimate setup, fully knowing that the transition from 5.1 to 5.1.4 will feel more monumental than going full out 13 channels, but hey I love movies and in particular movie sound mixes so might as well plan for the best.
Not sure you linked to the pre-amp's and power-amps's you mentioned somewhere already, but if not could you?
That's the time to do it, even if you don't utilize them initially. I wired for 12.4.6 with my theater reno (9 layer base with wides, 3 LCR heights, 6 overheads, subs in the four corners). I probably should have run some wire for side and rear heights too, for a full Auro3D capable set up, but wasn't really considering Aura as a viable format. Wire is cheap though, and so is labor to run it when you are building.
Spare change said no front wides used in ready player one but it works for me. Same thing here. In infinity war wides are active. I've got the av7702. VERY Strange, I dont even recall any dolby atmos movie without wides no matter how old actually and I always check, ACTUAL OBJECTS not upmixing
I've got the older marants av 7702, I think its the only high spec pre amp model for a while that let you run an extra set of wides through phono but not xlr. So I'm able to do 9.2.4. Do the newer ones which use DSU upmix to the wides? I've only been able to do it with dts nueral x unmixer but I lose out on a set of heights if I do
Something I want to test for myself, for sure! 🤘
Thanks for the video, I was recently thinking about using my old bookshelf B&W as my front wide. In doing so I would have to buy another amplifier to power them, which would cost me around $1k.
After watching your video, I decided it's not worth it to waste another grand on front wide speakers.
Thank you very much.
Sweet! Glad I could help! 😁🤘
I have front wides and a marantz 8805 processor. I hear them a lot. Sometimes more than my regular side surrounds 🤔
Is this when you are playing back NATIVE ATMOS audio? Or using an up mixer (like Dolby Surround or Neural X? )
I love your break downs, great editing! My question is ac line filter. When you connected your amp did you experience any hum? Would you recommend getting an Emotiva CMX 2 or 6? Thank you!
I mean sure, there’s some hiss if you put your ear right next to the speaker. But I haven’t yet tested an AC line filter to see if it makes a difference. I’d personally go with the CMX-6 so I can plug all my main components into it - preamp, external amps, etc.
Q: "Who are front wides for?". A:People who listen to a lot of music in Atmos on their system.
As someone who mixes music for Atmos I may have some bias, but wides are an absolute MUST for me in music.
Nice! I’m all for music in Atmos as long as it’s properly mixed and not just run through an Atmos upmixing plugin, so good on you!! 😁🤘
Music in proper Atmos is legit.
The problem with wides in film is the lack of available channels. Since your limited to 128 channels total, it’s common to mix Dialog into 1 bed, music into another bed, and fx into a third bed. each of those beds is 10 channels so you’ve used up 30 of your 128 channels right there. Seeing as there’s usually far more than 98 different sound effects in the course of a film, some of those effects have to get mixed down into the 7.1.2 bed instead of being able to operate as discrete objects.
I've heard mixed reviews about that emotivia processor, do you have any more in-depth thoughts about it? And if one were to go that route, is that not full separates for less cost than a receiver?? Not sure why emotivia didn't put an HDMI 2.1 in it and slightly bump up the cost to make it more competitive. Don't really see why anyone would buy anything else if they did that.
The MC-1 is temporarily unavailable on their website, so they're still selling out of them quickly. Which also means it's tougher for Emotiva to send me a review unit. I just need to win the lottery so I can buy to my heart's content and review everything everywhere all at once. :) I agree, though - they should've added HDMI 2.1 to make it more future proof. And the XMC-2 and RMC-1 have Dirac Live, so they should've added that to the MC-1 for a slightly higher price, too.
If I run a 5.1.2 set up and watch a 7.1 atmos blu ray disc. Am I completely missing audio channel or is my receiver downmixing it?
Your AVR should upmix it by trying its hardest to separate what it thinks should be height information and sending that to the 2 height speakers.
Thanks for this video! I've just upgraded to 9.2.4 with my Stormaudio and indeed, I was disappointed to discover so many Atmos mixes were stuck to 7.1.4 or rarely using wides. This is even worse with gaming in Atmos, absolutely no wide used because no Atmos dynamic objects I guess. Still, when properly used like Gozilla vs Kong or some streaming series (like See on Apple TV), it's stunning!
Whoa! I wish I had a Storm Audio preamp! 😎 And yes! When it’s done right, it sounds amazing with front wides! But it’s slowly getting better. You’ll be glad you made the investment once utilizing front wides becomes more commonplace. 😁
Got the 6700H .. Thinking of going Monolith HTP-1.. ( I like the idea of WebUI)
Im fascinated by the Iota.. pretty good option. ( yeah.. studio engineering is really not great.. no standards.. pretty shitty for us enthusiasts.)
Enjoying the recent videos.. really like your style and editing =) cheers!!
Thank you very much! 😁🤘
what about if you wire 2 extra speakers as Front Wides with the L/R speakers?
You could, but it would just be a duplicate of what the front L/R speakers are playing, and not true discrete front wide surround sound information 🤷♂️
My Cinema 50 doesn’t support front wide as far as I can tell, unless I use height 1 or 2 but I’ve have a lot of blue rays that can output front wide.
I asked this in another video, but are these channels DSP from the front left and right, or are they stand alone channels? 🙃
It depends on the mix, honestly. If you’re upmixing a 5.1 or 7.1 mix with DTS Neural X, yeah, what comes out of the front wides will be an approximation.
But movie mixes with discrete audio coming out of the front wides are becoming more commonplace, thankfully. Dune Part I & II have Atmos mixes with front wide support, as well as Godzilla vs Kong and the remastered Atmos mix of The Matrix, to name a few. 👍
I’m pretty sure my Onkyo rz 50 can support front wides, but you may have to remove 2/4 over heads.
Taking a quick glance at the manual online, it looks like 7.1.4 is the max. I see no mention of a 9.1.2 option. 😕 If it did, it would be the best AVR on the market, even more than what it is already with Dirac Live and THX certification. 🤘
@@ealanosborne I’ll play around the setting, I swore I saw the option reassign zone 2 as wides. If not meh I’m not gonna use it as wides anyway haha
@@PerfectorZY Haha! Whatevs! Definitely let me know if that works, though. That would be a game changer at the RZ50’s price point. 👍
@@ealanosborne I just checked, you can go to 7.1.4. It has 2 zones that I guess let you switch from amplifying LR with Zone 1 but there is still a Zone 2 that idk how it works. Maybe I need to read the manual lol.
I actually put them in when i built my theater7 years ago and did the same for Atmos. I was when i wrote for Audioholics the only one at that time that had it and there was 1 disc that had Atmos lol yep ive been in it with the 3D for mat that long. Plus I act had a 7.2 system when there was no 7.2 discs lol so I try to stay ahead of the curve LOL
Dirtmos, wire up for actual floor speakers 🤣
@@dfalekulo9138that’s forward thinking, I got rid of 2 speakers on my 7.1 surround when I had an Arcam avr350 which didn’t support Dolby atmos now I have a cinema 50 I wish I hadn’t sold them
Hey Ealan, you mentioned the Denon 6700h, which as you said is expensive, but, doesn’t the ToneWinner AT300,and Emotiva BasX MC1 offer those wide channels at a much lower price point?
Those don't have built in amps so kind of a different class of product
Post processing is required for true wide front speaker operation. Audyssey DSX is the best but not as supported as years ago.
I think ill just keep my x4700 and my amps and buy to more 8ohm speakers, to have 4 side surrounds using 2 of those up front. That should work i hope
Good video. FRONT WIDEs can give the impression of a larger room. If you have a narrow room ? - they can help. Digital crap. Time delay.
I think it;s only a matter of time before Atmos decoding is done on a Mac or a PC and sent as multi channel PCM via USB to a multichannel USB DAC like a Motu Ultralite MK 5 which is a 10 channel Sota Dac and ADC, among other things. That DAC costs $599 and runs rings performance wise around any DAC in an AV receiver. Likewise, they are any number of really inexpensive chip amps like the Aiyima A 07 which will better the performance of those AV receivers for a fraction of their cost.
As for adding height channels, why not scour ebay for used surround speakers? Finding four of them for around $200-300 is definitely doable.
Can’t wait till floor speakers come out 😅
Okay, you mentioned them as well as the IOTA VX17!
Sure did! 😁🤘
Thanks.
I guess 7.2 or 7.2.4 is great since most movies are mixed in 7.2. I have both 7.2 and 5.2.2 definitely love both.
I use Final Audio Opus 204’s, 9 of them to be in exact, for a Incredibly immersive experience…. The 204’s go for a cool $450,000 each, worth every penny. It is if money is just showering into your ears. I also use a couple CAT MBX Powered Speakers - $500,000 for my play around speakers.
Front wides would be great with pre-Dolby 70mm 6-track and Cinerama audio mixes.
I know DTS-HD MA supports 7.1 with front wides instead of rears. But I don’t think any discs officially use it.
I would have loved it if Spartacus (70mm), How the West Was Won (Cinerama), Ben-Hur (70mm), The Sound of Music (70mm), Oklahoma! (70mm), Lawrence of Arabia (70mm) and 2001: A Space Odyssey (70mm) would have purist 7.0 (which is also possible with the DTS-HD MA standard) mixes with front wides instead of rears.
Sleeping Beauty was one of the few 70mm films which did not have front wide channels, so it was just 4.0 (5.1 but no LFE and mono rears) since it didn’t even have 4.1 LFE (despite being 4.2, the LFE channels in such mixes are usually duplicates of each other, basically making it 4.1) like Logan’s Run, Alien, The Thing, Streets of Fire, or Star Wars.
There were some later 70mm films in traditional 5.1, like The Black Cauldron, Apocalypse Now, Superman: The Movie, and Top Gun.
7.1 wide would also be great for preserving SDDS 7.1 mixes like with the Bad Boys films, the Sam Raimi Spider-Man Trilogy, Surf’s Up, and Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within.
Unfortunately, Emotiva has already bumped the price up $100 on that bas-X processor (to $1099). They have a nasty habit of raising prices every year or so .
Well, I guess I can’t blame them with how inflation is going these days…
I damn near died laughing while watching this…🤣😂🤣😂
LOVE it!!
Absolutely loving my front wides ! I run a 9.3.4 Atmos/DTS-X Denon system with Emotiva external amps on a 150” projector screen. I have the front wides placed up high. The first time I noticed them was at the start of the movie Christine (4K Dolby Atmos). When the engine starts, the ignition and idle is heard between the left/center/right channels. But as the engine revs up high, the sound shoots up wide and high giving a really cool effect. And yes, Godzilla vs Kong gives my system a total workout, that’s the disc to check out a sound system.
Christine…huh, that’s not one I would’ve expected. Thanks for mentioning it! 😁🤘
When you say you "have the front wides placed up high," can you elaborate? Are they wall or ceiling mounted? Placed vertically above your L & R towers? Or are they mounted high diagonal from your towers?
I am considering front wides, but placing them high up to create a "wall of sound" may work better than having to place another set of stands & speakers (which take up more floor space).
@@keyzone72 They are wall mounted, placed up high nearest to the ceiling, then angled downward and inward toward the centered seating position. I had to find a few different scenes that had sound effects between the wide channels and the front left/right channels so I could adjust the level of the wide channels because wanted the wides to be noticeable, but not over-noticeable. Setting this level and finding what scenes work for this is discretionary so you have to set this to your preference. The opening scene of Christine where the engine starts and begins to rev its engine up works nicely, plus the opening sequence and then the duration of the concert of when Time Cappello is singing “I Still Believe” from The Lost Boys works pretty good, and then pretty much every flight sequence from Top Gun Maverick would probably work too.
@@ThePenguin-rn1lo Thank you for the info on how you mounted them and set the levels. I was curious through, to know where (in relation to your main tower speakers) they were mounted. Vertically above each LEFT and RIGHT tower like an AURO 3D layout ? Or did you space them further out (maybe) 2-3 feet from each tower, and then angle them down and in towards the MLP?
@@keyzone72 And when I say wall mounted, I also mean wall mounted to the left wall and then the right wall, and then in-line to the front stage speakers. So basically these wide speakers are as wide as they can be.
I'm curious to know if it is worth it to go beyond 5.1.4?
I tried 7.1 years and if destroyed the surround effect behind me. Same sound from all 4 surround speakers. I never went back.
I'm seriously considering building a dedicated home theater for 5.1.4 only but if 7.1.6 is discrete I am willing to step up and do that.
Is 7.1.6 discrete?
They’s another test I’m wanting to do soon. Are 6 height speakers worth it? I should know fairly soon!
There is a cheap trick workaround to get front wides in a 7.1.x setup.
1. buy 2 cheap old AVRs that support Dolby Pro Logic II.
2. for the front wide R channel: connect the Front R and surround R preouts of your 7.1-AVR to the direct-in Front R and Front L of your old Pro Logic AVR.
3. Connect the Center-out of your old Pro Logic AVR to your Front Wide R speaker
4. Choose Dolby Pro Logic II on your old AVR. It will create a "center" between your Front R and Surround R - which is your Front Wide.
5. Do the same with the left side.
This "trick" ist much cheaper AND the Front Wides will perform in every 7.1 mix.
i just add it front wides to my setup :)
Are you seven front channel speakers that way I don’t miss a thing don’t wanna miss one tat of sound
You don't need speakers all around the room. You only need to use your normal stereo speakers with cross talk cancellation to achieve a true 3 dimensional soundstage.
Pure BS
Have you heard any music with 2 loudspeakers where cross-talk is eliminated ?@@chadnliz2k11
It’s too bad not all Dolby Atmos movies are front wide supported. I’ve got plenty of room to add more speakers.
ignoring consumer adaptation and industry support, psychoacoustics dictates that front wides are no less "worth it" than surround rears.
it is a problem that the majority of mixing engineers still are clueless on how to work with object based audio and treat atmos like a channel-based format, which is why wides seem underutilised. Atmos doesn't really care about whether you have wides or not physically, as long as there is an object that either exists or transitions between the fronts and the surround sides, wide channels will be beneficial, as atmos works by playing object sounds from the channels which are closest to the intended position, that's the beauty of object based audio rendering, same applies to dts x (pro)
The problem with Front Wides is the fact that they even exist in the first place just shows that most people don't actually know how to setup their own home theaters properly. Everyone sets their Front L and R speakers literally on the left and right sides of their TV. You're actually supposed to be setting them to the left and right sides of YOUR LISTENING AREA -- to be even more specific, right outside the left and right sides of the seating area itself. This is how you create a proper soundstage. It's always supposed to be wider and larger than your field of vision. When you place the L and R speakers right up to the sides of your TV, they are effectively just serving as center speakers because they're still in the middle of your auditory sensory field. Think about it: your headphone and earbud L and R speakers don't sit in front of your eyes shooting sound at you from the front, do they? No, they literally go the absolute left- and rightmost positions they can over your ears which gives you a perfect soundstage. So why would you place your freestanding speakers in front of your eyes? If you can see them along with your TV screen in your FOV without moving your head, the placement is wrong! They should only be visible in your peripheral vision if at all. I'd even argue they should be further spread out if you have the room to be completely outside your peripheral vision, all the way to the left and right of the room itself if you can. If people would just set up their speakers properly, there'd be no need for Front Wide speakers at all.
So why doesn't the audio industry educate people better on how to properly set up their speakers? Because they make more money selling you more receivers and speakers, of course! That's why every promotional picture you ever see of a home theater setup has the L and R speakers right beside the TV. Because now you think you're supposed to set them up that way and then you feel the need to buy Front Wides when you realize your soundstage is too small and now you feel special as join the audio elite by buying even more expensive receivers that can handle Front Wides and a couple of more speakers.
If you still really feel the need for Front Wides, here's a great and relatively inexpensive (well, inexpensive in comparison to buying a new A/V receiver and another pair of speakers to serve as Front Wides) little hack that you can use which is what I do: just use bipolar surround speakers as your front L and R speakers and angle them inwards towards the listening area! Not only is the Front Wide area now covered by the soundstage, you'll always have sound in that area and you won't have to jump through the A/VR settings hoops Ealan showed us in this video.
Nonsense. The Dolby guidelines are clear. Theres even a simple demo called "Dolby Leaf" that completely nullifies your assumption. The left and right speakers are atmospheric speakers (the center channel does almost all the work) and need to be in a tight range of 22-30 degrees. If you push them out of that range the "sound cloud" gets destroyed since the seperation of the front stage gets too large and the cohesion gets completely lost. I know because I tried and I realized those guidelines are there for a reason and need to be fullfilled. Otherwise theres no point in doing Atmos at all.
Other than not putting L and R speakers right next to each other, basically nothing you stated matches with any industry standard, any psycho-acoustics study or any advice an acoustician or sound engineer has ever given. L and R speaker placement as wide as you suggest would get a a professional fired.
Cenkolino, Kurt, thanks for your input and I completely get where you are coming from. When I was a beginner in this hobby and didn't experiment as I do now, I too also subscribed to the adhered to standards. As time went on and I started experimenting more, I have come to believe that 1.) At the risk of incurring more of both your wrath, I strongly feel now that some of those standards are flat out wrong and possibly drawn up just to sell us more stuff and 2.) It really does depend on each individual listener.
I also live near a theater, have friends with completely decked out home theaters and family with soundbar and surround speaker setups and I always found the same thing with those setups and my initial one: The LCR setup always sounded like a large singular wave from the front. Our ears are omnidirectional and can pick up cues from the sides and tell what direction sounds are coming from. When I finally had enough is when I decided to throw away the accepted standards and truly experiment.
In regards to breaking the sound bubble, all I can tell you is that when I've watched Top Gun: Maverick on other setups, when the jets fly in from the left it sounds like it's coming from in front of me (albeit left of center, to be fair) whereas in my setup as I have it now it actually sounds like it's coming all the way from the left.
Of course, this is all up to each individual listener as well. What I really want to get across to folks is to not put their speakers right beside their 55" TV which they then sit back 10 - 12 feet from because they saw a picture of that and so monkey see, monkey do. Everyone has to experiment to their own individual tastes to get the best sound possible and not be afraid to go against the grain. All I can tell you is that I'm very happy with my setup and everyone who has gotten a chance to experience it initially thinks I'm crazy and then are absolutely wowed when they experience it.
I would say you are expressing your personal preference but not coherent audio advice. I've had many speaker arrangements over the last 30 years of home theatre. The placement of the L and R speakers is critical to achieve a coherent image and not collapse the sound stage. Just as placing them too close together is wrong, so is placing them too far apart.
When watching a movie, the sound that is supposed to be coming from the image should not be coming from the sides of your head, or anywhere close to that. Placing speakers directly on each side of your head focuses the sound image inside your cranium instead of from the screen. This is fine for music, if you aren't trying to recreate the experience of music actually being played in front of you. However, it is not good for movies, where you are supposed to be able to locate the sound as if it's actually coming from in front of you.
When sound engineers mix audio for surround sound, they base it on your speakers being at approximate locations. Deviating too far from these locations will not provide the intended audio experience. L and R speakers placed at the correct positions will provide a focused image. Placing them at the wrong locations, could either provide a collapsed or incoherent image. Yes, most homes should probably have their L and R speakers placed further apart but I think you're recommending an extreme that fixes one problem but causes another.
I would agree that people should experiment more with speaker placement to achieve the desired sound. However, if the desired sound is what the sound engineer intended, then placing the L and R speakers close to the sides of your head will not be the result.
Add more humor to your video please. But other than that, I really liked your video
Hi Ealan. If you actually read these comments. Give me a call. I have some good ideas for Theaters. cheers.
Auro 3D is dead.
R.I.P.
Frontwides not for me. Sounds like their in there baby stage.
No.
NOT REALLY GREAT VIDEO …I DO NOT GET IT THIS OBSESSION OF HOW MUCH YOU SPEND FOR YOUR EQUIPMENT AND THE CONSTANT WORRIES THAT YOU SPEND TOO MUCH ON AN AVR. IS IT WORTH 3000 BUCKS OR NOT. I SAY THAT A 3000 $ MORE EXPENSIVE AVR IS DEFINITELY NOT WORSE THAN A 1000 $ CHEAPPER ONE. THAN TELL ME HOW MANY TIMES IN YOUR LIFE YOU BUY AN EXPENSIVE AVR. A FEW TIMES OR THREE TIMES ? I SPENDT MY WHOLE PENSION FOR A DENON X4800H AND FEW B&W SPEAKERS. I AM NOT SORRY FOR THAT. 😂😂😂
Writing in all caps is annoying, you should write in the new double mojo dual all caps option, it lets people know even more how annoying it is for an old guy on a pension to not know how annoying it is for someone to write a WALL of caps (see use of appropriate caps).