5:10 lol the problem is that they don't have the debuff of being unable to walk in a straight line without getting confused on the SCII engine. They behave like normal units in this game.
Well the factions in Starcraft are actually not races, not even species. Since Protoss kind of do photosynthesis they likely belong to a different biological kingdom like plants or fungi (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_(biology)).
Hey! Thanks a lot for playing Evo Complete, however i need to point out what was played in this vid was actually Evolution Complete Crossover, which is not SC1 vs SC2! it is a lot more experimental and has several additions, and we are also not currently updating it.
lol Harstem's excitement over seeing how strong dragoons are compared to stalkers is like the exact inverse of how every bw player felt in 2010 when we played sc2 for the first time
That's what I thought too. ^^ And how fast a Nexus was killed. Losing my first 6(!) SC2 carriers was also a moment I needed a break from this game and returned to BW. But I tried again just to miss the Arbiter because a single mothership couldn't compensate these at all ... Maybe one day there will be a real successor. To me SC2 is more like a CnC. What about you?
I think SC2 is more balanced and requires more scouting and harassment. The SC1 Carriers were insane. If I remember correctly, you couldn't select a group of more than 12 units, so 12 Carriers was by far the strongest group you could have built in SC1. Oh, and there wasn't a Select All Army button. You had to Box Select your units. But they lived longer... kind of. It's a long time since I last played SC1. But IMO the micro was not that huge in SC1. Just point and shoot. There was no blinking, splitting and many micro abilities we now consider normal. If your Macro was insane, you were probably Master Level. A In SC2 Macro gets you to Platinum the most. So basically, today's SC2 high platinum or low diamond are at the same level low Master SC1 players were. If you think that players are getting better and better in SC2 at Master level, even high diamond, it's actually a fact. Even many mid-duamond SC2 players are better than low Master SC1 Players This is just my simple IMO.
@@mihairo83 I kind of agree but also I don't. ^^ Carriers took you so long nearly no game saw 12 of them and if then half of the group was hallucinations. Part of this was because they came without interceptors. So you had to micro them to give them any use. That's why I don't agree with your less micro statements. Many things in SC2 are automated you had to do by hand in SC1 and BW. Building interceptors, collecting minerals, building scarabs, send drones/SCVs/probes to the minerals/gas after building them and so much more. You couldn't tell SCVs to auto-repair. So the micro was kind of the same. You also splitted your army and had to scout. And speaking of scouting there haven't been minimap indicators nor could you see what was under the fog of war. So you couldn't see the exact layout of the map if you didn't scout and als building commands had been cancelled if the target area wasn't scouted. Also scouting and expose stealth was more interconnected. So you needed to manage your anti cloak units. That's why I hate the Select All Army button. Because all observers, ravens and overlords are also moved and make observing the battlefield harder than it should be. That's why you now can make observers stay at a place. But I think it would be more usable if this button could be managed via a menu. So I can choose which units I see as part of the army. Until than this button just isn't for me. But it fits to another statement of yours I totally agree with: SC2 is way more harassment. You don't stand a chance if you don't do any kind of throw away unit tactics. This game isn't made with a casual player in mind like SC1 and BW had been. It is made around esports. So it is more work then fun if you want to win. I know today most people don't want to take their time to achieve something but would like to have fast rewards. So SC2 is really compatible with the zeitgeist. Which is also ironic. Nobody wants to work for an achievement anymore so the game gives fast small wins because all units are made of paper but this also means you have to attack over and over to really achieve something. And doing things again and again is also work but in a more stupid way. So I can't agree to SC2 being more balanced. Quite the opposite is true. Now there are more units doing nearly the same job. Back then there had been dragoons. They did most of what now stalkers, immortals, colossus and sentry do. Blink wasn't a thing because the arbiter had recall. They didn't make hallucinations because templar did these for units you or your opponent really needed to have. (This took psy energy and is the reason why you also see less psy storms in bw or less hallucinations. It was a choice you had to make. A sacrifice.) So you have now 20 units which do on its own less then their bw counterparts for the most time. But what they do can be spammed. And this shows again: it was made with esports in mind. You have more action on the screen for the viewer to observe. That's why you may think a master back than didn't have to do as much as now. Because you couldn't see what's in their brain or on their screen. So it was normal to lose an army when your enemy attacked while you took a new mineral line or gas. Because you had to go to your base draw a box around your workers go to the new resource and click there before you could actively join the fight. But so did he. Same for building units. Today this and the select only 12 units cap is seen as a bug. But in my opinion it is more like a feature. You had to choose wisely which units got into a group. And no BW wasn't perfectly balanced. Neither is SC2. In both games 12 zealots are useless against 1 air unit which can shoot ground. For example. But your decisions had more impact. At least that's my opinion. Maybe you can get along with some of the points I made here. ^^
@yksnidog Yes. In BW Macro takes more Micro than in SC2. The wrokers are very dumb in SC1 and you have to baby-sit them to find the path. In BW units have a more general purpose, while in SC2 units have a more specific purpose, especially Toss units. I never meant to disrespect SC1 players, if it seems that way. In BW you don't really spam APM, like in SC2. But spamming APM in SC2 made the players so fast. The speed in SC2 is insane. For a casual player like myself, BW is way more stable. Without practice you lose a lot of speed. BW was about smarter, SC2 is about faster. I think that in SC2 the difference between a silver, a gold, a plat and a diamond is the speed they play. In diamond+ you do the same things you do in Platinum, but faster, better, tighter. In BW I think that the difference is made by game understanding and it starts from Macro, splitting workers, the fundamentals etc., while in SC2 I think the difference is made by fast scouting and fast decision making. Because SC2 units have a more specific role, if you don't have the right army composition, you lose. The time to change it is very limited. Engagements are very fast and your army can melt in 2-3 seconds if you missclick or overstay in a certain position. When I said that IMO SC2 is more balanced, I thought about the 3 races, all with their strengths and weaknesses, while in BW I think that late-game Toss is OP, while the early-game Zerg is OP.
i still play broodwar, its fun but i doubt new players to rts genre would like the og starcraft since the unit control is much different from sc2. cant play sc2 because i havent updated in a while and the updates i did get for sc2 made my old saves and replays unplayable, such an anti consumer product sc2 is despite the improvements they made :( also static defenses feel weak for some reason in sc2 compared to broodwar even though canons got an extra hp and shield buff they still melt fast.
I hope he's not serious. because the answer is obvious, many SC2 players are naturally BW noobs. It's not an insult, just simply people grow up with the latest games not really having played the older predecessors. However to call out *IMBA* so soon is a little bit farfetched. In fact BW is one of the most balanced games, unlike SC2 that has to keep getting constant updates because of imbalances or players crying about it for over 10 years. Now is it game designed or player skill? The BW scene has been going strong 26 years and in Korea is still more popular than SC2. I just hope if there is to be constant whining from SC2 players "BW race X is imba" that it falls on deaf ears.
@21:34 You can save replays in BW! Unfortunately in the early days, saves were prone to corruption. More than once I wanted to show someone a cool game I played, only to have the replay be totally different from the actual game.
BW Protoss has arbiter, which is a crazy unit. It has a cloaking field which is nice, but the main thing is that it can cast stasis, which freezes a big group of opponents forever. Like so long. 43 seconds. You can totally freeze a fleet of battlecruisers or carriers for long enough to build air defense if you want to. Its insane
The stun durations are just ridiculous in brood war, like a couple ghosts against a fleet of battlecruisers completely disables them for like 30 seconds, and you can ATTACK THEM WHEN THEY'RE FROZEN
yeah, BW spellcasters are kinda busted compared to those in SC2. oneshotting any ground unit and turning it into broodlings? permanently mind controlling enemy units including workers to build their stuff? blinding clouds on steroids? stunning stuff like forever? speaking lategame my money will almost always be on BW races.
@@hangover89 thats the best part, it encourages to mix up army compositions, each unit had a role, you didnt have to build every single unit but you couldnt spam mono units and win. lots of counter play and more importantly defense structures actually made a difference
I'll be honest I thought Harstem was about to learn how much he needed to respect the Defiler at 20:00, but his opponent teched into a queen instead. Literally 2 defilers could have ruined his entire life with plague, and we got blueballed. Maybe eventually.
Anyone have a full name of this map/mod? Found the solution in another video I'll paste the information here: "To find this mod: launch StarCraft 2, create a custom melee match, select 'Create with Mod' at the bottom and type SC: Evo Complete Crossover Edition"
This mod is taking SC2 by storm it seems... dude I would love if they just officially added the BW races as separate factions to the vanilla game. That would spice things up so hard.
Balance in Starcraft 1 was directly proportional to how hard they were to use. Spellcasters were blatantly overpowered because there was no smart cast system and you needded them on separate hotkeys to use spells individually. Dark archons were hard to use because they were a huge target and easy to focus, but their spells were stupidly overpowered. Defilers, same thing, crazy good but difficult to use and easy to snipe. The Dragoon, you could generally win with mass dragoon they're extremely strong but they were notoriously retarded. Their pathing gave SC1 players PTSD. Going up a ramp with more than one of them was an achievement worthy of a medal. Also for mass muta you can either tech into goliaths but the best option is the Valkyrie. The Valkyrie shreds Mutas straight up
"These guys are cracked, what the hell" They were called "cracklings" back in the day for a reason. Also, if you're playing BW Terran, you have to make a few siege tanks. They do 70+5 per upgrade.
OMG, the eraser in hands of (edited, originally wrote Grubby, though it still applies) Harstem is going to be disgusting. AND he loves Dark Archon woo! On another hand - this ought to teach Harstem some empathy towards IODIS peeps :D so many "this is busted" while not using the key countermeasure.
Dragoons have weakness in broodwar. They move really clunky and are very dumb. In TvZ , terran wins early game, until zerg gets the most busted unit against it. The defiler.
The big reason the defiler is busted is because dark swarm doesn’t affect lurkers. Makes it impossible for Terran to engage Zerg. Then Zerg can win with the actual strongest BW unit. The zergling.
Terran should use sci-vessels with irradiate against defilers. But most the time will be dead against marine+tank push or drop. I think in this mod medics are attacked like normal units. In bw they had lower targeting priority and were blocking Path for the lings to get to marines. That's why it was so damn hard to survive against T as Z.
This is why maintaining a high Vessel count is very important in TvZ. Zerg generally doesn't have the gas to mass produce Defilers, so you need plenty of Vessels with Irradiate to slap them and their horde of Lurkers down before they're eating your SCVs. And yeah, half of the updates BW added in the expansion was to counter Mutas.
@@CenJohan The defiler is OP because the only unit that can get through dark swarm were Firebat , seige tank splash. And yeah, cracklings were the highest DPS per mineral
You can also do this in SCII with infestors and neural parasite, but you don't get the extra supply. I used to love stealing a worker and maxing out with a protoss air army as zerg in the corner of the map.
I always believed Blizzard should have split the 3 Starcraft factions into Rebels (SC1) and Loyalists (SC2) like what SINS did. The factions list are: Terran Raiders (TR) [Terran Rebels] Terran Dominion (TD) [Terran Loyalists] Zerg Overmind (ZO) [Zerg Rebels] Zerg Queen (ZQ) [Zerg Loyalists] Protos Khala (PK) [Protos Rebels] Protos Scion (PS) [Protos Loyalists]
Wow. Great video, Harstem. You so quickly and intuitively realized the frustration of every Terran player since 1998. Would love to see you and Arty or Scarlett play(go Canada!). You can really feel Gruby's mad wc3 micro at work too. Thanks for this!
Dragoon in BW has very bad pathfinding that is why it is balance lol Zergling in BW is completely busted but they can be wipe out entirely with just a few Firebats. Also Siege Tank in BW is super strong. Also Terran can win with just Vulture+Mine. Ahhh I missed the good old stupid Dragoon/Goliath day lol All races have OP spellcasters to the point that they balanced each others out!
@@PeteZhaoCA or rapid-fire plaguing everything, or casting huge zones of dark swarm. infestors' fungals and shrouds are balanced by their relative weakness, but these two complemetary spells are much more stronger, especially dark swarm
Grubby's micro is so sick. Like he tries to save every little unit, and use the individual skills of each unit to maximum efficiency. Someone should tell Grub that SC1/2 is not WC3 where units are expensive and where losing even one or two units more than allowed can cost you the whole game. Of course, Grubby knows this as a fomer SC2 pro. I watched the series through Grubby's perspective, too, and he was clearly upset and frustrated that he couldn't perform at a high level. He didn't expect to beat Harstem, but he expected to do better than he did. The guy beats himself down so hard. Even though he retired from profesional SC2 9 years ago and is beyond rusty, you could see in his stream that he was trying SO hard to win But this is the mentality that led him to become a World Champion in WC3. And speaking of WC3, Harstem, everyone wants to watch you play a Back2WC Weekly cup. Unlike All-Star Tournament or TeD Cup, this is open to amateurs and doesn't require qualification. Your friend, MaxPax already tried. It would also bring more viewers to your stream since WC3 fans usually watch all RTS games.
The Brood War music and feel always beats StarCraft 2's even tho the latter has better balance, is more modern and improved on many other gameplay aspects. Btw this is one of your best ideas, definitely try to invite others like you mentioned in the video.
I'm so happy to see a collab with Grubby! You two are my favorite RTS players to watch, and I've been hoping for a collab where you teach him higher level sc2 or he teaches you higher level wc3. Hoping for more in the future!
I played 1 and Brood War campaign as a kid. Didn't you? It's funny to see you are older than me and amazed by sc1 units. Some of them appear in sc2 campaign.
lol Harstem's comments are hilarious. It's really funny to see a SC2 pro with no background with Brood War playing it. Looking forward to more show matches and maybe even against some SC1 pros!!
Harstem, a common tactic in BW for Terran was to line the perimeter with missile turrets because of how powerful mutas and air units were and you had to cluster them in groups of at least three. Marine/Medic was stupidly strong but Interestingly, Mech was really, really strong for Terran, especially with spider mines from vultures, the 70 damage from Siege tank shots in siege mode, and of course, goliaths with their annoyingly long range missile boosts. Meanwhile Zerg had defilers which were just dirty, the queens were degenerate as heck, and naturally the protoss had Dark Archons and High Templar spell nonsense. Psystorm in SC1 did 130 I wanna say. It was really good at melting bio, and one of the big reasons why Terrans lean heavy into mech.
u know although the muta micro in G2 wasn't exactly the same but it was extremely cool to see similar dynamics play out since both of you guys were playing BW zerg and terran respectively! Mutas can be hard to defend against because turrets are explosive damage in BW, they don't do too much damage to mutas. You typically need to get 3 to 4 per base. The general idea behind defending against mutas in BW is that, assuming timings are correct, you mass up ur first group of marines, and defend with ur turrets until you have enough to move out. You keep most of ur newly created marines at home to defend with ur turrets while u move out and threaten damage. It kinda happened during G2 when you attacked his 3rd base! This kinda back and forth kinda goes on until BW zerg either manages to break ur home defense and win, you manage to kill their 3rd base, or they clear out your marines on the map. Really this mid game is just to stall until lurkers are ready to defend (in which case you need to get irradiate on vessels) BW medics are really freaking good so you'd be surprised at how much stim + medics can kill (you seemed really surprised when you started to win the fight at his 3rd base ramp lol)
I like that he waited for the gg back, that’s very mannerly, more sc2 players should do that. The winner expects a person to bow out gracefully without returning the bow, it’s much more humble when both partake
This mod has been a blast; been playing it everyday for the past week or so. It would be amazing for this to have its own ranked setting in the versus mode.
@6:00 Damage types in StarCraft are normal, explosive and concussive. Explosive affects large units the most and small units the least. Small units take 100% of concussive damage, where large units take 25%. All unit sizes take 100% normal damage, shields take 100% of all damage. Dragoons have explosive damage type, so they are good against large units and poor against small ones. But this mechanic is probably not implemented here.
Interesting how they tried to balance Dragoons for this. They used to do 20 explosive damage, so they did only half damage vs small units like Marines, Zerglings etc., but full damage vs big units like Carriers, Dragoons, Tanks etc. Here they are basically still similar except with an anti-Protoss bias.
You are correct in assuming most BW Terran players just mass M&M, however science vessels are important for irradiate to deal with mutalisk clumps, so you had the right idea to tech them. They’re gas heavy, mineral light so the resource spending works in your favour. A few firebats to deal with mass zerglings doesn’t hurt either, though they’re usually food for lurkers. If you can stim your bats and send them into a mineral line its drone flambe! Valkyries are also great vs mutas and the SC2 AI seems to dramatically improve their effectiveness. However, you won’t have armor/weapon upgrades for them in time so more of a niche unit since they can only attack air.
Harstem just doesn't know the story that the queen and the engineering bay once crashed into the air and since then they lost their ability to fly. Broodwar queen has the ability to infest parasites into living targets that give the ability to see around that unit. You can infest some neutral creatures on the map and they reveal their path.
This mod reminds me of balancing a Dow mod a few months back…the devs were for the most part nice, but man were they noobs, and it was a nightmare getting them to understand why balancing decisions had to be made, and no credit was given to the work we did to fix their decisions. I hope these devs, if they don’t have the time to play the game since they’re busy modding, respect their testers and balance guys, they really do make or break the mod in the end
As a brood war guy I hope they don't rebalance anything or as little as possible. Part of the charm of this mod is seeing how units in the different games behave against each other.
Excellent video! really nice seeing you do some arcade material. I really enjoy the arcade material and have enjoyed it since the galaxy editor first became available on launch day back when sc2 was just a few hours old. pretty awesome.
Brood War with grouping buildings, the possibility to select more than 12 units, automatic batteries?? That's like a biggest Brood War patch everyone wanted😄
You could have attacked the third straight away with your one medic army in the TvZ. One medic heals through one sunken colony's damage perfectly. It was also really funny to see your reaction to the dragoon. SC2 has no unit with that much bulk for that little money, the race has a totally different feel.
18:35 you can see how playing as Starcraft 1 Terran starts turning you into Artosis
I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed Harstem starting to morph into Artosis
Artosis brain 😂
"thanks guy in chat" - Harstem, probably
And he didnt even encounter Arbiters or Defilers yet
LMAO
5:10 lol the problem is that they don't have the debuff of being unable to walk in a straight line without getting confused on the SCII engine. They behave like normal units in this game.
my thought exactly :D
Right? The dragoon turns into an unmanageable baboon without your controlling input every 3 seconds in BW lol
I hated them misfiring because they decided they needed to be half a centimeter to the right.
They would have to nerf all brood war grounds units translated into SC2 engine pathing.
"I wonder if my race is better than his" -Inventor of racism, circa 10,000 years before present
Nah racism was when they didn't check and just assumed they were.
...also the Ironman triathlete to the marathon runner.
Careful, patch notes were banned 80 years ago.
Well the factions in Starcraft are actually not races, not even species. Since Protoss kind of do photosynthesis they likely belong to a different biological kingdom like plants or fungi (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_(biology)).
That's about when people started recording their "holdings"; racism is probably far older than that, unfortunately.
0:30 the Broodwar workers in this mod ARE faster to make up for the lack of chrono/inject/mules. A way of balancing economy
That's a pretty lazy way to balance it
Please, please more of this. This mod is SO fucking cool.
Hey! Thanks a lot for playing Evo Complete, however i need to point out what was played in this vid was actually Evolution Complete Crossover, which is not SC1 vs SC2! it is a lot more experimental and has several additions, and we are also not currently updating it.
So what should we be playing if we want this but the most updated version
@@miza6 SC: Evolution Complete, not legacy or crossover.
any instructions for how to download? i cant figure it out
@@OnyxOfMadness go to custom - melee - create with mod - search SC: Evo Complete - done
This has sparked new life into sc2 ... this could be the future of SC competittive scene . You sir have lighthing in a bottle right here. Grats
In this video Harstem learns why BW gave every race an anti-muta unit.
No, Harstem hasn't seen good muta micro yet.
once harstem discovers Valkyries and irradiate his life will be easier.
Valkyries but the missiles don't despawn😂
defiler dark swarms but they last for ever and multiply them selves by 1 per 5 seconds@@SleepLessThan3
Valkyries would be absolutely strong in this game.
lol Harstem's excitement over seeing how strong dragoons are compared to stalkers is like the exact inverse of how every bw player felt in 2010 when we played sc2 for the first time
That's what I thought too. ^^ And how fast a Nexus was killed. Losing my first 6(!) SC2 carriers was also a moment I needed a break from this game and returned to BW. But I tried again just to miss the Arbiter because a single mothership couldn't compensate these at all ... Maybe one day there will be a real successor. To me SC2 is more like a CnC. What about you?
I think SC2 is more balanced and requires more scouting and harassment.
The SC1 Carriers were insane.
If I remember correctly, you couldn't select a group of more than 12 units, so 12 Carriers was by far the strongest group you could have built in SC1.
Oh, and there wasn't a Select All Army button. You had to Box Select your units. But they lived longer... kind of. It's a long time since I last played SC1. But IMO the micro was not that huge in SC1. Just point and shoot. There was no blinking, splitting and many micro abilities we now consider normal. If your Macro was insane, you were probably Master Level. A
In SC2 Macro gets you to Platinum the most.
So basically, today's SC2 high platinum or low diamond are at the same level low Master SC1 players were. If you think that players are getting better and better in SC2 at Master level, even high diamond, it's actually a fact. Even many mid-duamond SC2 players are better than low Master SC1 Players
This is just my simple IMO.
@@mihairo83 I kind of agree but also I don't. ^^
Carriers took you so long nearly no game saw 12 of them and if then half of the group was hallucinations. Part of this was because they came without interceptors. So you had to micro them to give them any use.
That's why I don't agree with your less micro statements. Many things in SC2 are automated you had to do by hand in SC1 and BW. Building interceptors, collecting minerals, building scarabs, send drones/SCVs/probes to the minerals/gas after building them and so much more. You couldn't tell SCVs to auto-repair. So the micro was kind of the same.
You also splitted your army and had to scout. And speaking of scouting there haven't been minimap indicators nor could you see what was under the fog of war. So you couldn't see the exact layout of the map if you didn't scout and als building commands had been cancelled if the target area wasn't scouted.
Also scouting and expose stealth was more interconnected. So you needed to manage your anti cloak units. That's why I hate the Select All Army button. Because all observers, ravens and overlords are also moved and make observing the battlefield harder than it should be. That's why you now can make observers stay at a place. But I think it would be more usable if this button could be managed via a menu. So I can choose which units I see as part of the army. Until than this button just isn't for me.
But it fits to another statement of yours I totally agree with: SC2 is way more harassment. You don't stand a chance if you don't do any kind of throw away unit tactics. This game isn't made with a casual player in mind like SC1 and BW had been. It is made around esports. So it is more work then fun if you want to win.
I know today most people don't want to take their time to achieve something but would like to have fast rewards. So SC2 is really compatible with the zeitgeist. Which is also ironic. Nobody wants to work for an achievement anymore so the game gives fast small wins because all units are made of paper but this also means you have to attack over and over to really achieve something. And doing things again and again is also work but in a more stupid way.
So I can't agree to SC2 being more balanced. Quite the opposite is true. Now there are more units doing nearly the same job. Back then there had been dragoons. They did most of what now stalkers, immortals, colossus and sentry do. Blink wasn't a thing because the arbiter had recall. They didn't make hallucinations because templar did these for units you or your opponent really needed to have.
(This took psy energy and is the reason why you also see less psy storms in bw or less hallucinations. It was a choice you had to make. A sacrifice.)
So you have now 20 units which do on its own less then their bw counterparts for the most time. But what they do can be spammed. And this shows again: it was made with esports in mind. You have more action on the screen for the viewer to observe.
That's why you may think a master back than didn't have to do as much as now. Because you couldn't see what's in their brain or on their screen. So it was normal to lose an army when your enemy attacked while you took a new mineral line or gas. Because you had to go to your base draw a box around your workers go to the new resource and click there before you could actively join the fight. But so did he. Same for building units.
Today this and the select only 12 units cap is seen as a bug. But in my opinion it is more like a feature. You had to choose wisely which units got into a group.
And no BW wasn't perfectly balanced. Neither is SC2. In both games 12 zealots are useless against 1 air unit which can shoot ground. For example. But your decisions had more impact.
At least that's my opinion.
Maybe you can get along with some of the points I made here. ^^
@yksnidog Yes. In BW Macro takes more Micro than in SC2. The wrokers are very dumb in SC1 and you have to baby-sit them to find the path.
In BW units have a more general purpose, while in SC2 units have a more specific purpose, especially Toss units.
I never meant to disrespect SC1 players, if it seems that way. In BW you don't really spam APM, like in SC2. But spamming APM in SC2 made the players so fast. The speed in SC2 is insane.
For a casual player like myself, BW is way more stable. Without practice you lose a lot of speed.
BW was about smarter, SC2 is about faster.
I think that in SC2 the difference between a silver, a gold, a plat and a diamond is the speed they play. In diamond+ you do the same things you do in Platinum, but faster, better, tighter.
In BW I think that the difference is made by game understanding and it starts from Macro, splitting workers, the fundamentals etc., while in SC2 I think the difference is made by fast scouting and fast decision making.
Because SC2 units have a more specific role, if you don't have the right army composition, you lose. The time to change it is very limited. Engagements are very fast and your army can melt in 2-3 seconds if you missclick or overstay in a certain position.
When I said that IMO SC2 is more balanced, I thought about the 3 races, all with their strengths and weaknesses, while in BW I think that late-game Toss is OP, while the early-game Zerg is OP.
i still play broodwar, its fun but i doubt new players to rts genre would like the og starcraft since the unit control is much different from sc2. cant play sc2 because i havent updated in a while and the updates i did get for sc2 made my old saves and replays unplayable, such an anti consumer product sc2 is despite the improvements they made :(
also static defenses feel weak for some reason in sc2 compared to broodwar even though canons got an extra hp and shield buff they still melt fast.
Hearing "My life for Aiur!" tickled something in me that hasn't been tickled in a while.
bw units sound so much better than sc2, esp zealot archon carrier and stimpack ofc
And the audio balance on the Academy scream wasn't so bad either!
That feeling when Harstem is asking "Is it IMBA or do I suck?". Priceless.
I hope he's not serious.
because the answer is obvious, many SC2 players are naturally BW noobs.
It's not an insult, just simply people grow up with the latest games not really having played the older predecessors.
However to call out *IMBA* so soon is a little bit farfetched.
In fact BW is one of the most balanced games, unlike SC2 that has to keep getting constant updates because of imbalances or players crying about it for over 10 years.
Now is it game designed or player skill?
The BW scene has been going strong 26 years and in Korea is still more popular than SC2.
I just hope if there is to be constant whining from SC2 players "BW race X is imba" that it falls on deaf ears.
@@AdmiralBison I dont know about most balanced lmao.
@21:34 You can save replays in BW! Unfortunately in the early days, saves were prone to corruption. More than once I wanted to show someone a cool game I played, only to have the replay be totally different from the actual game.
I know, buddy, it would happen to me every time I beat flash or bisu, my replays KEPT getting corrupted?? 😫
As someone who cut his teeth on Warcraft 2 and OG Starcraft, it hurts my soul that you've only played a handful of Brood War games.
if only dragoon was this smart in bw 🤣
The amount of games I've lost because ny goons couldn't figure out how to get down a ramp
yeah, also goliaths
Artosis would retire 😂
takotachi
*flashback to dragoons walking like drunk spiders and misfiring cuz they crash into everything*
BW Protoss has arbiter, which is a crazy unit. It has a cloaking field which is nice, but the main thing is that it can cast stasis, which freezes a big group of opponents forever. Like so long. 43 seconds. You can totally freeze a fleet of battlecruisers or carriers for long enough to build air defense if you want to. Its insane
The stun durations are just ridiculous in brood war, like a couple ghosts against a fleet of battlecruisers completely disables them for like 30 seconds, and you can ATTACK THEM WHEN THEY'RE FROZEN
@@hangover89 Pretty much all of the "magic" in the game is insanity. Defilers have a "become invincible against terran" spell lmfao.
yeah, BW spellcasters are kinda busted compared to those in SC2. oneshotting any ground unit and turning it into broodlings? permanently mind controlling enemy units including workers to build their stuff? blinding clouds on steroids? stunning stuff like forever? speaking lategame my money will almost always be on BW races.
@@hangover89 thats the best part, it encourages to mix up army compositions, each unit had a role, you didnt have to build every single unit but you couldnt spam mono units and win. lots of counter play and more importantly defense structures actually made a difference
I'll be honest I thought Harstem was about to learn how much he needed to respect the Defiler at 20:00, but his opponent teched into a queen instead. Literally 2 defilers could have ruined his entire life with plague, and we got blueballed. Maybe eventually.
Grubby is not really known for broodwar. He was a WC3 world champion though.
Was hoping for the defiler too ..
BTW. You can use a Dark Archons mind control and take over a worker of a different race and then build as them as well. Insane fun
The BW equivalent of dropping the mules
Can you mind control a probe and build SC2 units?
@@DrewMiller1 Yup
@@gloriousblobber9647 do you have a separate supply cap for the other race like in SC1?
@@DrewMiller1That's how it works in BW, you get 200 of each race. I don't know if it'll be different or shared supply cap if you MC a SC2 Protoss
14:16 made me drop my phone haha, wasn't ready for harstem's reaction
Anyone have a full name of this map/mod?
Found the solution in another video I'll paste the information here:
"To find this mod: launch StarCraft 2, create a custom melee match, select 'Create with Mod' at the bottom and type SC: Evo Complete Crossover Edition"
22:27
Many thanks for putting this in the chat
This mod is taking SC2 by storm it seems... dude I would love if they just officially added the BW races as separate factions to the vanilla game. That would spice things up so hard.
Would be nice if they added BW races to ladder.
Balance in Starcraft 1 was directly proportional to how hard they were to use. Spellcasters were blatantly overpowered because there was no smart cast system and you needded them on separate hotkeys to use spells individually. Dark archons were hard to use because they were a huge target and easy to focus, but their spells were stupidly overpowered.
Defilers, same thing, crazy good but difficult to use and easy to snipe.
The Dragoon, you could generally win with mass dragoon they're extremely strong but they were notoriously retarded. Their pathing gave SC1 players PTSD. Going up a ramp with more than one of them was an achievement worthy of a medal.
Also for mass muta you can either tech into goliaths but the best option is the Valkyrie. The Valkyrie shreds Mutas straight up
harstem complaining about sc1 balance sounds like the average IODIS submission lol
I love how you where saying Zerg must be so OP in Broodwar while being able to just spam the basic unit of the Terran faction and win
tbf doesn't he have like 500 elo over grubby
"These guys are cracked, what the hell"
They were called "cracklings" back in the day for a reason.
Also, if you're playing BW Terran, you have to make a few siege tanks. They do 70+5 per upgrade.
Imagine the horror of a reaver drop to a mineral line. There is literally no way to counter it when reaver is landed
Saw some cast from winter and it was brutal
You can pull workers or just be prepared for it beacuse they are going to do it because shuttle reaver is amazing
And there's no dud scarabs 😬
OMG, the eraser in hands of (edited, originally wrote Grubby, though it still applies) Harstem is going to be disgusting. AND he loves Dark Archon woo!
On another hand - this ought to teach Harstem some empathy towards IODIS peeps :D so many "this is busted" while not using the key countermeasure.
Right???
The sound of BroodWar SCVs mining is one of my favorite sounds
Dragoons have weakness in broodwar. They move really clunky and are very dumb.
In TvZ , terran wins early game, until zerg gets the most busted unit against it. The defiler.
The big reason the defiler is busted is because dark swarm doesn’t affect lurkers. Makes it impossible for Terran to engage Zerg. Then Zerg can win with the actual strongest BW unit. The zergling.
Terran should use sci-vessels with irradiate against defilers. But most the time will be dead against marine+tank push or drop.
I think in this mod medics are attacked like normal units. In bw they had lower targeting priority and were blocking Path for the lings to get to marines. That's why it was so damn hard to survive against T as Z.
This is why maintaining a high Vessel count is very important in TvZ. Zerg generally doesn't have the gas to mass produce Defilers, so you need plenty of Vessels with Irradiate to slap them and their horde of Lurkers down before they're eating your SCVs.
And yeah, half of the updates BW added in the expansion was to counter Mutas.
@@CenJohan The defiler is OP because the only unit that can get through dark swarm were Firebat , seige tank splash. And yeah, cracklings were the highest DPS per mineral
in brood war you could mind control a drone or scv and get another 200 supply worth of units for a while as I recall.
You can also do this in SCII with infestors and neural parasite, but you don't get the extra supply. I used to love stealing a worker and maxing out with a protoss air army as zerg in the corner of the map.
So awesome seeing Harstem's excitement over playing Brood War units when you've know those units since 1998.
Never thought I would live to see the day where dragoons were called busted
More of these videos please!! Watching Harstem discover dragoons was incredible. Can’t wait to see him discover firebats, goliaths and defilers
This mod is taking over the starcraft community
As it should. BW's spirit and SC2's convenience.
100% i would love to see some tournys at the pro level. Take my money!
@@jeronp420 there is one going on in korea atm
@@jeronp420 There is a SC1 pros vs SC2 pros tourney sponsored by AfreecaTV tomorrow!
It's much better than Starbow ever was
Watching you play Terran and pushing out basically around 5 minutes with a group of marines and medics was pretty cool.
I always believed Blizzard should have split the 3 Starcraft factions into Rebels (SC1) and Loyalists (SC2) like what SINS did. The factions list are:
Terran Raiders (TR) [Terran Rebels]
Terran Dominion (TD) [Terran Loyalists]
Zerg Overmind (ZO) [Zerg Rebels]
Zerg Queen (ZQ) [Zerg Loyalists]
Protos Khala (PK) [Protos Rebels]
Protos Scion (PS) [Protos Loyalists]
Wouldn't mind seeing Artosis Mald against ur toss 😂
Wow. Great video, Harstem. You so quickly and intuitively realized the frustration of every Terran player since 1998. Would love to see you and Arty or Scarlett play(go Canada!). You can really feel Gruby's mad wc3 micro at work too. Thanks for this!
I really wanna see Clem play SC1 marines/medics. Also i just LOVE the SC1 sound affects. "Jacked up and good to go" so good.
"Reavers - I've heard of those" 😂
This brought so much joy to my old BW Protoss heart.
“Wtf is a creep colony” never change, captain
Dragoon in BW has very bad pathfinding that is why it is balance lol
Zergling in BW is completely busted but they can be wipe out entirely with just a few Firebats. Also Siege Tank in BW is super strong.
Also Terran can win with just Vulture+Mine. Ahhh I missed the good old stupid Dragoon/Goliath day lol All races have OP spellcasters to the point that they balanced each others out!
yeah feels like lategame BW is all about spellcasting
With sc2 engine. Bw spellcasters even more op. Imagine the potential ghosts lockdown all BC/carriers.
@@PeteZhaoCA or rapid-fire plaguing everything, or casting huge zones of dark swarm. infestors' fungals and shrouds are balanced by their relative weakness, but these two complemetary spells are much more stronger, especially dark swarm
Someone needs to show Day9 this mod. He’s been big on discussing the key differences between BW and SC2.
This brings back so much nostalgia for me! So happy to see Harstem discovering BW for the first time. Great to see!
Grubby's micro is so sick. Like he tries to save every little unit, and use the individual skills of each unit to maximum efficiency. Someone should tell Grub that SC1/2 is not WC3 where units are expensive and where losing even one or two units more than allowed can cost you the whole game. Of course, Grubby knows this as a fomer SC2 pro.
I watched the series through Grubby's perspective, too, and he was clearly upset and frustrated that he couldn't perform at a high level. He didn't expect to beat Harstem, but he expected to do better than he did. The guy beats himself down so hard. Even though he retired from profesional SC2 9 years ago and is beyond rusty, you could see in his stream that he was trying SO hard to win But this is the mentality that led him to become a World Champion in WC3.
And speaking of WC3, Harstem, everyone wants to watch you play a Back2WC Weekly cup. Unlike All-Star Tournament or TeD Cup, this is open to amateurs and doesn't require qualification. Your friend, MaxPax already tried. It would also bring more viewers to your stream since WC3 fans usually watch all RTS games.
Dragoons with unethical actual pathfinding is OP
Two of my favorite RTS dudes on the web, just having a fun time in a cool new mod. This is the kind of content I love waking up to!
The Brood War music and feel always beats StarCraft 2's even tho the latter has better balance, is more modern and improved on many other gameplay aspects.
Btw this is one of your best ideas, definitely try to invite others like you mentioned in the video.
SC1 sound in general is better, more trash metal sci-fi feel.
I'm so happy to see a collab with Grubby! You two are my favorite RTS players to watch, and I've been hoping for a collab where you teach him higher level sc2 or he teaches you higher level wc3. Hoping for more in the future!
I absolutely love your attitude and narrative - you're such a nice and entertaining guy!
I played 1 and Brood War campaign as a kid. Didn't you? It's funny to see you are older than me and amazed by sc1 units. Some of them appear in sc2 campaign.
I love this, because all the long-time SC2 players get to feel what its like to be a new player and not know everything
lol Harstem's comments are hilarious. It's really funny to see a SC2 pro with no background with Brood War playing it. Looking forward to more show matches and maybe even against some SC1 pros!!
Harstem, a common tactic in BW for Terran was to line the perimeter with missile turrets because of how powerful mutas and air units were and you had to cluster them in groups of at least three. Marine/Medic was stupidly strong but Interestingly, Mech was really, really strong for Terran, especially with spider mines from vultures, the 70 damage from Siege tank shots in siege mode, and of course, goliaths with their annoyingly long range missile boosts. Meanwhile Zerg had defilers which were just dirty, the queens were degenerate as heck, and naturally the protoss had Dark Archons and High Templar spell nonsense. Psystorm in SC1 did 130 I wanna say. It was really good at melting bio, and one of the big reasons why Terrans lean heavy into mech.
Brood war is not exactly Starcraft 1. It was a huge change and very different to play when the Brood War expansion came out for Starcraft 1.
u know although the muta micro in G2 wasn't exactly the same but it was extremely cool to see similar dynamics play out since both of you guys were playing BW zerg and terran respectively! Mutas can be hard to defend against because turrets are explosive damage in BW, they don't do too much damage to mutas. You typically need to get 3 to 4 per base. The general idea behind defending against mutas in BW is that, assuming timings are correct, you mass up ur first group of marines, and defend with ur turrets until you have enough to move out. You keep most of ur newly created marines at home to defend with ur turrets while u move out and threaten damage. It kinda happened during G2 when you attacked his 3rd base! This kinda back and forth kinda goes on until BW zerg either manages to break ur home defense and win, you manage to kill their 3rd base, or they clear out your marines on the map. Really this mid game is just to stall until lurkers are ready to defend (in which case you need to get irradiate on vessels)
BW medics are really freaking good so you'd be surprised at how much stim + medics can kill (you seemed really surprised when you started to win the fight at his 3rd base ramp lol)
"What are these? Goliaths? I heard they are good... But I don't want them!"
I would LOVE some more show matches with this mod! super fun stuff
The voice lines, the music, so nostalgic! Please more of this 😁
i wanted to see his reaction agaisnt the defiler in the second game or the forever slow from the queen's vomit
I would love to see more of this mod. It's really cool to see SC1 vs SC2.
Really nice seeing Harstem just spontaneously jump into what seems to be a weird alternate reality Broodwar :D
Best Harstem quote of all time, "this is really sick. I can actually play bw without having to play all the other crap." agreed.
Ok, now we NEED an episode of "Is it IMBA or do I suck?" where Artosis judges Harstem's Evo/BW replay.
Watching harstem wall off the ramp with old depots is classic.
i have seen several streamers cast these games and i am loving it
Day after day artosis is slowly becoming more relatable
I like that he waited for the gg back, that’s very mannerly, more sc2 players should do that. The winner expects a person to bow out gracefully without returning the bow, it’s much more humble when both partake
Really cool mod. Like Harstem said it would be sick to see brood war pros play off against starcraft 2 pros.
This mod has been a blast; been playing it everyday for the past week or so. It would be amazing for this to have its own ranked setting in the versus mode.
Super fun to watch! I loved SC back in the day, I’d be happy to watch more, especially you vs artosis
“Does everyone in sc1 know that zerg is just absolutely unbeatable?”
You are preaching to the choir my friend
halucinated units to think dragoons are op made me laugh so hard XD
@6:00 Damage types in StarCraft are normal, explosive and concussive. Explosive affects large units the most and small units the least. Small units take 100% of concussive damage, where large units take 25%. All unit sizes take 100% normal damage, shields take 100% of all damage. Dragoons have explosive damage type, so they are good against large units and poor against small ones. But this mechanic is probably not implemented here.
Interesting how they tried to balance Dragoons for this. They used to do 20 explosive damage, so they did only half damage vs small units like Marines, Zerglings etc., but full damage vs big units like Carriers, Dragoons, Tanks etc. Here they are basically still similar except with an anti-Protoss bias.
You are correct in assuming most BW Terran players just mass M&M, however science vessels are important for irradiate to deal with mutalisk clumps, so you had the right idea to tech them. They’re gas heavy, mineral light so the resource spending works in your favour.
A few firebats to deal with mass zerglings doesn’t hurt either, though they’re usually food for lurkers. If you can stim your bats and send them into a mineral line its drone flambe!
Valkyries are also great vs mutas and the SC2 AI seems to dramatically improve their effectiveness. However, you won’t have armor/weapon upgrades for them in time so more of a niche unit since they can only attack air.
It's so interesting watching a pro learn SC in reverse, it's like a rare insight into how a pro level player problem solves
This is the collab i've been dreaming about
This is sick, there's a lot of fun in the relative simplicity of BW unit design.
All the good Protoss spells were taken and given to Zerg in sc2.
Please make more of these! I’d like to see you try out the other races too :) it’s neat to have an SC2 pro’s perspective on the old skills.
"dragoons are nuts" wait until he starts using reavers
Starcraft 1 spellcasters are all busted as fuck. but in broodwar its insanely hard to control them, which balances it out
Harstem just doesn't know the story that the queen and the engineering bay once crashed into the air and since then they lost their ability to fly.
Broodwar queen has the ability to infest parasites into living targets that give the ability to see around that unit. You can infest some neutral creatures on the map and they reveal their path.
This mod reminds me of balancing a Dow mod a few months back…the devs were for the most part nice, but man were they noobs, and it was a nightmare getting them to understand why balancing decisions had to be made, and no credit was given to the work we did to fix their decisions. I hope these devs, if they don’t have the time to play the game since they’re busy modding, respect their testers and balance guys, they really do make or break the mod in the end
As a brood war guy I hope they don't rebalance anything or as little as possible. Part of the charm of this mod is seeing how units in the different games behave against each other.
Excellent video! really nice seeing you do some arcade material. I really enjoy the arcade material and have enjoyed it since the galaxy editor first became available on launch day back when sc2 was just a few hours old. pretty awesome.
With sc2 engine. I am waiting for someone to mass bw ghosts then lock all the BCs/carriers. It will be insane
Lotsa fun with this, would love to see a series
Now the pros is taking notice on this, love to watch the pros play this kind of set up 👍.
Gotta do another one of these, loved watching this
Brood War with grouping buildings, the possibility to select more than 12 units, automatic batteries?? That's like a biggest Brood War patch everyone wanted😄
I like seeing the menu it shows how quickly you are playing it’s kind of cool
That looks really fun :D
Definitly have to try this out with some Friends
Oh wow, you could mind control his probe and then build all the units
I love watching these and seeing how much of Broodwar Harstem doesn't know about. :3
Broodwar did have replays... that was one of the great new stuff it had. No rewind though
Just wait until you see the 1 supply hydras man, that will drive you crazy.
This is so fun, please play more of this
You could have attacked the third straight away with your one medic army in the TvZ. One medic heals through one sunken colony's damage perfectly.
It was also really funny to see your reaction to the dragoon. SC2 has no unit with that much bulk for that little money, the race has a totally different feel.
0:18 "I'm playing brooad war" 100 dollars grubby will win lmfao
This mod will become SC3! That would be so sick!!