JUNK THESE BUSES NOW! New York's Grumman Bus Crisis of 1984 [History of Buses]
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- Опубликовано: 6 июн 2024
- Note: Many of the images in this video are from: www.nycsubway.org/wiki/Bus_Ph...
In 1980, New York City started to receive the first of a fleet of 851 Grumman Flxible 870 Advanced Design Buses.
Shortly thereafter, numerous problems were found with cracked underframes and steering column defects. In 1980, the entire fleet was temporarily pulled from the streets for inspection and repairs. About 100 buses from Washington, D.C.'s WMATA system were leased to make up some of the gaps in service.
While back in service, the Grummans continued to stir controversy.
In 1984, the fleet of 851 buses were pulled permanently, never to run in New York City again.
In this video, we review a New York Times article from 1984 that goes into detail the problems with the Grumman 870s.
Were the problems real or imagined? You decide....
#buses #transportation #newyorkcity #1984 #automotivehistory 
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A friend of mine had an uncle who worked for Grumman.
He said Grumman warned the MTA that they wouldn’t take the beating of the NYC streets without the heavy duty suspension, but they didn’t listen.
Thank you for watching and for your comment! Very interesting to hear that about Grumman and the MTA!
i would honestly believe that. The cities didnt do their part and maintain the streets. Now with the LA Grumanns, after all the problems were fixed, they were all moved to the San Gabriel Valley and also used on routes that didnt touch the rough streets of Downtown LA.
@@eddieflxible379 I dunno, you'd think it would be a bid and tender process
R46 🤔
The streets in nyc are tougher than the buses can handle . They weren’t fully designed by Grumman since the bought the flexible company as a way to diversify their business . The buses were ok on Long Island roads . There may have been federal funds involved with purchasing those buses.
I was a former Bus Operator for the LA Metro from 2000-2008. I operated these Flxbles buses and loved them!!!!! They were my favorite!!!!!!!
Thank you for watching and for your comment about driving the LA Grummans!!
im from New York - the streets back then were HORRIBLE ...everything broke
Grumman did make the LLV for the USPS and those vehicles have had their life span extended by many years beyond what was originally planned.
Thank you for watching and for your interesting comment!
That LLV is a fantastic design. Made to be maintained, but work IS required to keep them on the road. Sounds like maybe NYC didn't want to do the work to keep them going. They had the parts. City streets get pounded though.
The post office here in Jersey is still using LLV vehicles
Grumman only made the bodies, they're body-on-frame and it's a Chevy S10 chassis.
Sorta gives a good meaning to the "LL" in "LLV"!
Funny how they said the buses were crap... but When NJ Transit got em, they fixed the problem and ran em for years.
So what happened?
Slacker attitude.
l lived through this, and wondered about it.
Not only that, the private companies still ran theirs, even Long Island bus kept them in service.
The TA essentially was full of crap.
Thank you for your comment and for watching! I tend to agree....it was mainly the NYCTA that had these problems...many of those buses were resold and ran for years!
Someone needed a payday is what, as is often the case
@@repatch43 LOL! Thanks for watching!
Those buses were still on the road through the 90s and early 2000s
@@khalifgreen581yup, they are more reliable than most of these newer buses we have running around.
NJ Transit ran versions of these well into the 2000s, so clearly they had potential. I do wonder if Grumman spinning Flxible off helped with build quality. As you mentioned in another video recently, defense contractors didn't have the best record when they tried building transit vehicles in the 1970s. Meanwhile I remember as a kid in the '90s thinking NJT's 870s looked like dinosaurs compared to the "futuristic" RTS buses I would see in New York. Only much later did I come to realize they were both 1970s designs.
Thanks for watching and for your comment! Good qestion about Grumman selling the bus division. Both the 870 and the RTS were also what came of the Transbus project of the 1970s. (I did a video on that too).
Yep, my first impression when I saw a Flxible in service was that it was the ugliest bus I'd ever seen. GMs always looked good, going back to the 50s, and improved over time.
Here in London, England we had a similar "problem" in the 1970s with a fleet of Daimler Fleetlines which were purchased in bulk by London Transport but due to unreliability, were sold off to other companies who all ended up not finding much in the way of reliability problems and companies like MTL Trust Holdings and China Motor Bus ran these vehicles up into the 1990s and 2000s.
Thank you for watching and for your comment! Ah yes, I believe these were the London DMS. Many found second lives elsewhere, just like the Grummans.
Grumman was still HQ'ed in Bethpage, Long Island, NY so got the contract in part due to bias in wanting to support a NYS based company. Part of the chassis/body design that turned out to be flawed was due to trying to make the buses lighter and more fuel efficient. Many streets they were used on were in very poor shape due to a lack of taxpayer funds, a period of severe inflation, flight of people and businesses from the city from the mid-1970's to the early 1980's leading to deferred or never done maintenance done on the streets. Many had severe, badly patched potholes and where utility work was done. I believe most were replaced by the last series of GM buses. By the way, it is interesting to see the ads on the buses of that time with ads for cigarettes, something that became banned in the early 2000's.
Thank you for watching and for your comment! It seems we are suffering the same bad streets today in NYC as back then!
@@JeffreyOrnstein largely because the rich still act like the mythical dragons as they have historically. It's telling that leaders like Justinian the Great had to allow their tax collectors to *_BRAND AND TORTURE_* quite a bit of the merchant and noble classes because they wouldn't pay their share.
I worked for Grumman Aerospace in Bethpage at the time, and we had a LOT of overtime making repair parts for these buses. Our understanding was when Grumman bought the company, they bought an already designed bus.
Thank you for watching and for your interesting comment about Grumman!
In constrast, the Maryland MTA bought GMC RTS buses and hated them. They were retired after 10 years. They bought Grumman 870's/ Flxible Metros and ran them until the wheels fell off.
Thank you for watching and for your interesting comment about MD MTA buses!
Similar climate, similar streets, yet Baltimore had the opposite experience that New York City had! 🤔
i highly doubt they literally ran them until the wheels fell off of them. you have to assume they did at least some maintenance on them.
Thank you so much for this video. It revived memories of the Metro (updated 870) fleet we had in Colorado growing up in the 90s along side the Gillig Phantom and Neoplan AN440. Once they fine tuned it and took care of those issues, they were so beloved and we had nothing but great memories, ours served until late 2005.
Thank you for watching and for your comment and memories of the Grummans in CO!
This Grumman bus dilemma reminds me of what would happen to Honda everytime they entered or re-entered an open-wheel motorsport(Like F1 or Indycar)
Every race car that ran their engines in their first years were lemons, they were unreliable and blew up before the race was over. (Just like Honda's first F1 races in the 60s and 2nd Mclaren era #GP2engine)
Its until they master their craft, through team input, trial+error in ~4 years did Honda's engines improve enough to become dominant in their sports-
Honda first ~4 years as an engine supplier in CART-Indycar were terrible. Poor Bobby Rahal was losing patience with them! It was until teams like Chip Gannassi were willing to risk running their engines, eventually seeing success together in the late 90s
Red Bull F1 is seeing success with Honda after taking a risk in inheriting Mclaren's "Gp2 Engines"
Trial+error, and input are what manufacturer needs to improve and I guess NYC MTA only wanted already-perfect buses!
Thank you for watching and for your very interesting comment. Very informative!
I remember there were many problems with the Grumman busses, only by riding in them. When they pulled them from service Washington, D.C. sent a convoy of their GM buses to us and most of them made the trip. I liked these busses because they had normal padded seats instead of the molded plastic ones we had. They didn’t last too long and we started getting the redesigned GM buses.
Thank you for watching, and for your comment about the Grummans!
Mostly old 5303s that would have been scrapped.
I remember the old ones that had rows with 2 seat benches on each side in the back past the rear door. The date on the seats were 1959 (5301’s). After the Grummans showed up, they disappeared. More seating but less standing room. I remember them being green or brown too instead of blue.
I drove Grumman Buses in Phoenix Az I ❤ the way they Handeled😊
Great! Thanks for watching and for your comment!
You drove for what is now ValleyMETRO?
Some Grumman busses were still being used on the bronx westchester bee-line, well into the 1990's
Thank you for watching and for your comment about Bee Line Grummans!
Those busses still run...
I'm in yonkers and they still run them...
Liberty Lines /BeeLine are second to none in terms of maintenance. They have a maintenance program that is the model for all others to follow. Most of their busses last over 30 years, and most of the older ones are sold to MTA and not junked.
Those Grumman 870s are still better than any Chinese BYD bus. There are members of the historical bus society that own Grumman 870s, and I myself wouldn’t mind getting my hands on one.
Thank you for watching and for your comment! I believe there was even a version of the Grumman 870 that was actually built and sold in China.
Those BYD buses are so DOA that the city of Albuquerque actually sued BYD.
@@JeffreyOrnstein yes there was. I forgot what the Chinese called those versions.
@@jul1440 facts! I remember when ABQ Ride ordered them, I cringed at that. Then when the drivers tested them there were so many complaints it wasn’t funny. I’m glad we got the New Flyers instead of the BYDs. Now we got some 40 foot Gillig Advantages that came in a couple months ago.
They should start outlawing Chinese vehicle manufacturers since they can be a security threat. Remember they see us as their enemy, so we must view them the same way and stop being so naive!
Back in the mid-1970s My grandfather was a financial examiner for the state of Ohio and sat on the board of TAGRA, a NW Ohio governmental thinktank. They had advised the regional transit authorities not to buy the Rohr Flxible prototype 870 buses at the time, even though they were built in-state, due to reliability concerns. They also panned the AM General/MAN 220 articulated buses.
Undaunted by the report, TARTA bought 29 870s, anyway. I think they ran some articulated buses on loan for a while in the 1980's. If memory serves, several cities in Ohio ran into service and reliability issues with the 870s and pulled them before their expected service life. Currently the vast majority of TARTA buses are Gillig.
175 of the MTA 870s were sold to SORTA in Cincinnati, OH.
WOW, thank you for watching and for your comment - it's really great information!
I remember these early on in Atlanta, I loved riding these, with their futuristic look. We had problems too. Always would see one somewhere broken down…. Man hearing that engine ❤️ and the floating ride effect. Then new flyers buses 🚍 came in💨💨
Thank you for watching and for your comment about the Atlanta Grummans - I really liked their paint scheme!
In Lisbon, Portugal, we had a similar problem with the 1983-1984 Iveco 470.10.20 bodied by Caetano (Carris 3001-3110). The problems ranged from broken wheelwells, defective exhaust system, an engine that didn't handle their routes well, defective steering in some units, defective transmissions, and door malfunctions. Reminding that at the time, Iveco and Fiat were in their doldrums.
At some point of their lives, they were more at the shops than on the routes due to those issues. They were taken out of service from 1996 to 2001, less than 20 years after their arrival, and are considered the worst buses purchased by Carris - they were replaced by Volvo B7Ls, B10L CNGs and... cough, Mercedes-Benz Citaro I built in Spain (equally terrible and short-lived), cough.
By comparison, the similarly bodied MAN SL200F (also by Salvador Caetano), had an admirable life despite the difficulties in the 2000s, having lived from 1983-1986 to the Summer of 2006, before the dawn of Rede 7. I wonder if they were rebodied and used alternative fuels, how much they would last. Maybe until 2009, when the 2nd Gen Volvo B7R LEs, bodied by CaetanoBus, arrived.
Thank you for watching and for your comment! That's really interesting to hear about the issues of the Iveco buses. I do like Caetano bodies...especially the older ones from the 70s, etc.
We had those Flxible 870s here in Louisville Ky up until the 00's when they were slowly phased out by the Gillig Low Floor. I don't think they had any problems. They were the models with the sliding full windows and crossheir looking false grille, and worked beside and outlasted the beautiful RTS and a handfull of Orion 35' busses and a handfull of of a bus that I believe starts with a T, can't remember the name and I just saw one on Pinterest a few days ago.
I wouldn't mind having one with the original tail lights. Their windshield makes them unique and they had screaming jimmies in them.
Thank you for watching and for your interesting comment about Louisville!
We had them in Chicago in the 90's
@@devincarthen5493 They were either the 870s, or might've been the Metros, actually. I assume they were preferred over the RTS because of the window problem those had.
@devincarthen5493 RTA/pace had them from 1979 to 1993 and CTA got the improved metro flxible in 1991 and 1995 and ran them until 2010
About 20 years ago, I last worked for a large scale scrap metal recycler here in Los Angeles. I recall seeing thousands of these old Grumman Buses crossing the scales as scrap metal. Most of these buses belonged to the L.A. County MTA. The body was made out of aluminium so they were lite compared to its competitors.
Thank you for watching and for your very interesting comment about the Grummans being scrapped!
Grumman making aircraft: 🥵
Grumman making vehicles: 🤢
LOL, thanks for watching and for your comment!
The EXACT SAME THING can be said for Rohr; they acquired Flxible after Grumman dropped them, and the same problems followed....
In fact, whenever an aerospace company goes terrestrial, they ALWAYS produce "lemons" in the beginning.
Aircraft manufacturers always made wierd vehicles. Saab was just the one time it was wierd good
@@user-dj7wv5ok2x The BART cars made by ROHR were just retired. The DC Metro cars they made probably would still be running, if the NTSB didn't whine about them so much after the red line wreck (which had nothing to do with car design anyway).
Boeing's LRV were a short-lived fad. Ironically, they were notorious for door issues...
@@user-dj7wv5ok2x Incorrect, it's the other way round - Grumman acquired flexible from Rohr.
Very informative video, no schtick or stupid humour. Just information. And you accent is great. Cheers.
Thank you for watching and for your very positive comment...much appreciated!
They were definitely ahead of it time in design when they came out.
Thank you for watching and for your comment! Yes, I really liked their space-age look!
The last ride on the Grumman Flxible 870 was in 1999 with my grandmother while riding the 505 line from Ventnor Plaza to Atlantic City inlet and that’s my favorite memory
Thank you for watching and for your memor of the Grummans in AC!
Reportedly the 505 and other AC local routes switched to 30' buses in 1999 was to due to vibrations on the barrier island and complaints from property owners.
This bus was great! NYC got rid of them. New Jersey bought them for a song , fixed them and used them for a long time. Just goes to show you how pathetic NYC is!!!
Thank you for watching and for your comment, yes NJT bought lots of them after NYCTA disposed of them!
Honolulu had their grummans 870s 301-374 my uncle that still worked with the company since 1976 said they never had any problems with their 1980 model grummans they lasted until 1996 until the 1997-98 Gillig replaced them.
Thank you for watching and for your comment about the Grummans in Honolulu!
I used to drive the grumman 870 at Rutgers university in new Brunswick NJ,Believe it or not it was a fairly smooth running bus and very slow acceleration.The GM RTS was a very hard riding bus,you feel every bumps in the road even rolling over a penny. LOL interesting video.
Thank you for watching and for your comment about drivng the Grummans for Rutgers!
Learn something new every day....had know idea WMATA sent some of their transit buses to help MTA.
Thank you for watching and for your comment! Yes, they sent/leased 110 buses to NYCTA for I think $20 a day!
Just found this channel, been quite interesting
The 870 was designed to airframe standards. They worked ok in Los Angeles where we used to have good repair. NYC had horrible roads with giant pot holes. The road system killed the Grumman busses.
This happened because Federal subsidies required low cost bidding. The very strong GMC RTS was up to the beating of NYC streets (and the best bus I have driven), but the RTS cost more because it was designed to take beating.
Thank you for watching and for your comment - you are most likely right about Grumman and potholes...I'm doing a follow-up video on that!
For starters, it's a beautiful & minimalistic looking bus that has great torque. Believe it or not these things were in service for many decades in San Juan, Puerto Rico under their transit authority known as "AMA". And with no issues! They were beloved.
Thank you for watching and for your comment! Yes, the repaired NYC Grummans were bought by San Juan and apparently, successfully ran there for a long time!
I was a senior at Boys & GIrls, and in gym, out on the track, and I saw them towing that last burned out bus down Utica, probably toward the Navy Yard where most of them were being kept. (Don't know where it was coming from, if the fire was in Manhattan). The private Queens lines kept theirs until the 90's, running on the same pothole streets so you wonder what was the deal with the MTA ones
Thank you for watching, and your memories of the Grummans!
11:29 - 11:33 On the Flexible Metros, didn't the Bee-Line System up in Westchester County end up purchasing them?
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Distinctly remember leaving White Plains in one.
The TA had a similar situation with the R46 subway cars purchased a few years earlier. Their trucks developed cracks and all of them were eventually replaced.
Thank you for watching and for your comment! Yes, the Rockwell truck fiasco!
The trucks were replaced, some R-46’s are still in service.
Los Angeles kept those buses for years! Not sure if they fixed the problems or worked something out with Grumman. When I worked there in 2012, a lot of drivers claimed they loved those buses. Ironically a lot of them complained about the RTSs or what we used to call them "Twinkie Buses". They were shaped like Hostess Twinkies...
Thank you for watching and for your comment! That's really interesting to hear about the Grumman experience in Los Angeles!
Unfortunately, LA sold the Grumman to cities in Mexico....
Very cool video and history of the NY units. SCRTD, before it was LACMTA, had a frame issues with theirs. When Grumann fixed the issues on the LA Buses, RTD ordered over around 300+ Flxible Metros. The grumanns served their 12 years in LA and were replaced by 300 Methanol powered RTSs, which were later converted to Diesel
I liked these Buses we use to call them the square buses. Thank you for the old NYC photos I miss NYC from the 80s and 90s.
Thank you for watching and for your comment! I Also liked the Grummans when they first appeared! Very space age looking!
I worked for Orange County Transit District (OCTD) California starting in January 1986. They too bought about about 60 of those buses around 1980 and had similar problems including one that self combusted and burned to the ground. They too got rid of them after 4 years. Just prior to going to work for OCTD I was working for another bus company that had leased 3 of those buses for some contracted work in late 1985, so I had an opportunity to drive them. Fortunately nothing bad happened at that time, but it was scary as to what could have happened given the history of those buses in the short time they were on the road.
Thank you for watching and for your experience on the Grummans at OCTD!
A lot of these buses ended up serving various bus lines in New Jersey, where they provided great service for a long time.
• I know firsthand because I took them on bus routes 31 and 24 for years.
Thank you for watching and for your interesting comment about the Grummans!
Even some of the newer versions lasting all the way 2011-2014. One feature that they were extremely known for the lean. There are videos from that time period showing their leaning capabilities that includes the port authority bus terminal where they run 108 107 125 126 123 119 NJ Transit bus routes.
@@EpicThe112 I have a strong feeling someone or some group in NYC Transit was paid for dumping these buses in order make way for another brand.
• Because, many streets in New Jersey were just as bad as the streets of NYC.
Yes, remembering in highschool from late 70s to early 80s in Hatford Ct We took these buses and were always late for class.Was told the frames are cracking and the wheel chair and kneeling mechanisms were at fault.eventualy they got taken out of service and sent to local airfield for decommissioning.
Thank you for watching and for your comment about the Grummans in Hartford!
Rode the NYC versions and those back axles always sounded like they were about to drop off. Felt like riding in a stagecoach circa 1872.
LOL! Thank you for watching and for your interesting comment!
I remember riding the Grumman Flxible 870 buses between 1981 model were NJ transit buses were 1000-1270 series and the 1980 models were ex NYCTA buses renumbered to NJT 1501-1619 and 2000-2518 series which those buses retired from the service by 2000 and 1596 holds a memory in my heart
Thank you for watching and for your memories about the ex NYCTA Grummans!
In New Jersey, most privately owned or IBOA in Jersey City such as Lafayette and Greenville, Bergen Avenue IBOA, and A&C Bus Corporation has brought all the Grumman buses from NYCTA to replace the old fishbowl buses.
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
You are correct on that speaking of NJ Transit they run theirs to Midtown Manhattan however they do have a unique feature their ability to lean you can't do that on the coach buses used to Midtown Manhattan the 114 113 116 117 139 138 bus routes. They need to be Highway capable too you're looking at the 108 120 & 107 to NYC 76X 378 Newark locals
Out of all the New York City buses, the Grumman is my favorite from the boxy style to the spacious airy Inside, compared to the small cramped buses now today.
Thanks for watching and for your comment...I feel the same way abou them!
We had those busses in Cleveland. They ran many of them for 25+ years. If they had any major problems with them, I don't remember hearing about it, and my mom worked for our transit system for 30 years. We had the GMC RTS busses from the same era as well. Those were run in Cleveland for decades too.
Thanks for your memor of these buses! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I enjoyed your video very much,but as someone who grew up riding and later driving buses for the MBTA in Boston, my vote goes to the AM Generals purchased in 1976. Shortly after going into service, the engine's started dropping into the street on more than a few of them. You would often see them tracking to right going down the street and the interior lights going off and on because the circuit breaker was placed too close to the exhaust system. The manual steering wheel was trying to turn an aircraft carrier. Purchased in 1976 in both 40ft and 35ft configurations. No a/c either. Although that may have been a blessing in disguise
Thank you for watching and for your comment! I'm glad your enjoyed the video, and that's interesting to hear about the MBTA AM Generals!
It's strange how NICE bus kept their's (or back in those days, MSBA/MTA Long Island bus). Last ones were retired in 2005 after NICE went all CNG.
Thank you for watching and for your comment about the MSBA Grummans!
I drove those for NYCTA in ‘82 ,’83. They drove ok.
Thank you for watching and for your comment on your experience driving the Grummans!
The Metro E were beastly. The last and best Flxible. MTA Maryland retired all of them in 2008-10. They were on the road for nearly 20 years. They were loud, quick and I loved riding in them.
Great memories! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I remember those buses in NY.The AC crapped out on a lot of them and they solved that problem by removing the very front and very rear windows on the left side.Air goes in the front, cools off the passengers,then exits thru the rear window.Brilliant(Except when it rains,not so brilliant.)
Thank you for watching, and for your very interesting comment about the Grummans!
I never rode the Grumman 870s, but I have rode the Flxible Metro Bs and Es. The B models are the closest you gonna get to the 870s and despite their slow takeoffs, those (along with the younger E models) were my favorite buses from the 90s.
Interesting to know! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Although NJTransit had purchased some of the Grummans custom for their service, they did also however buy some of the “better” of the condemned fleet from MTA as their service is suburban commuter based with less harsh roadways.
They were easily identifiable as the ones that came from NYC still had the blue interior seating and NJTransit’s original order did not and had a different 2 x 2 seating arrangement.
Thank you for watching and for your interesting comment abou the NJT Grummans!
I did not know this. I live in Baltimore. At the time the city had the old Flex buses and new RTS 2. I think the Baltimore md got the Flex Metro. I started driving the Flex metro in 1988. I liked them alot. I did not like the Detroit Diesel version. My employer got the New Version with a Cumings engine. Loved the combination of a Flex and Cumings enging. Great Video. Cheers!
Thank you for watching and for your comment! Very interesting to hear your experience driving the Flxibles in Baltimore!!
When I was 4, I was closed in the back door of one of these (LOS ANGELES system called theRTD-aka the Rough, Tough, and Dangerous) in 1984. My mom’s friend ran alongside and yelled at the operator. Woman driver. I don’t ever ride the bus.
Thank you for watching and for your comment! Wow, that's interesting to hear!
There was some problem with the Mercedes 'bendy buses' in London. So they sent some to us here in Bristol, but apparently they would go around the road system in the city cebtre. Thankfully I was driving for a different company so didn't get involved. I left altogether in 2018, just as a scheme came in where vehicles would be 'self steering' along a channel, somewhat like a cross between a scale electric car and and a bobsleigh I guess. 😵
Thank you for watching and for your comment! Interesting to hear about the buses in the UK! I think the Mercedes bendy buses couldn't negotiate the tight, curving streets there in London....?
The Flixible's were Fix-able. They wern't very flexible when hitting pot holes. As we all know, most large cities have pot holes that rival the depth of the Mariana Trench!
One thing that NYC don’t have is huge pothole. A lot of bumps but few potholes
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I’m too young to remember these Grummans, but I do remember these other busses that look much like them, @5:11. It looks like that’s the 236 replacement. I think I heard those were called Orion busses, are those related?
Those were two 870s at that time stamp. Orions look similar to some New Flyers or a bus that starts with a T, that I just forgot. The 870s most unique feature was the uneven windshield.
Thank you for watching and for your comment! Yes, it's the Orion V. They arrived much later than the Grummans. They ran quite well, but I personally thought they were too plain looking.
Here in Toronto Canada, we ran the GM New Look buses from the early 80s until 2011. The longest was 29 years old. Something the MTA NYCTA couldn’t.
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Very interesting. Enjoy3d the vid🎉
Thank you for watching and for your comment! I just posted another Grumman Bus video today!
The MVRTA in Dayton ran these buses in the 80s-2000's. Also had RTS' and the New Flyers.
I liked these Grummans, and hated them at the same time. Noisy and rickety, but they had character.
Interesting! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Interesting video. Seems that there is some kind of static or video issue when there is text on the screen though.
Thank you for watching and for your comment. Yes....I used the "glitch" text effect on purpose as part of the story...sorry if it seems like there's a problem. I will take this into account for future videos!
We got a few of those in San Francisco. Most were off the streets in less than a year. Two of them lasted a year longer, but were not used all that much.
Thank you for watching and for your interesting comment about the MUNI Grummans!
Grumman was unfamiliar with New York City's heavy roadsalt usage.
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I think that when these buses became the Flxible Metro in the 1990's, these buses became significantly better. When the Chicago Transit Authority (CTA) were running these buses, I would take family and friends to downtown Chicago. I would ride on the routes that I knew would take quick and tight turns. They got introduced to the "Metro Lean". Scared the crap out of them.
Thank you for watching and for your comment about the CTA!
According to the internet:
$99,000 to $121,000 in 1984 equals
$297,600 to $363,700 in 2024 Dollars.
Thank you for watching and for your interesting comment! I did a quick google search, and the base price of a new New Flyer XD40 is $412,000. Therefore, based on the info you provided, a new bus today is way overpriced. LOL!
The same thing happened to the Grumman buses in Savannah GA too.
Thank you for watching and for your comment about Savannah!
As someone living in Europe, I'm used to buses with frameless non-rounded windows. To me, these buses look more modern than much more recent American buses because they also have such windows.
Thank you for watching and for your comment! Yes, the Grumman 870 and the RTS both had frameless windows when they first appeared. American bus manufacturers do provide the option for frameless windows, but it's often only the smaller operators who specify this option.
Larger cities such as New York now only go for the framed windows as they are more durable, provide added strength and are easier to maintain.
When you are the New York MTA and have a fleet of 7,000 buses to maintain, esthetics are often considered last.
The elephant in the room that no one’s talking about? Why in the hell did they buy them in the first place? Whose pockets got stuffed to influence the purchase decision? Who wrote the request for proposal that lead to the purchase? Why in the hell didn’t they make a purchase of a dozen or more Grumman busses first and run the snot out of them for 3 to 5 years before committing to make them 30% of their fleet? Many many years ago my Grandfather ran a fleet of garbage trucks. When he bought into the business they were using open dump trucks on the routes. The city they operated in passed an ordinance requiring closed refuse bodies in the city (packer bodies). The cost to upfit their fleet would be more than they paid for the business. They managed to find a fleet of used trucks with packing bodies in Tulsa Oklahoma and bought them. About the time they got them into service they encountered harassment from the city council and a few other city officials. Seems the people in city government had made a side deal to get a commission from the manufacturer for each new packer body sold to operators in the city. When Grandpa bought used trucks he “cost” some city officials $5,000 to $10,,000 each. On these busses someone got a kick back or was trying to promote “fairness” or “equality”
or simply had it in for General Motors who had been the major manufacturer of transit busses at the time. GM got their market share in the bus market partially because they made a good product. Some people declared that to be “unfair” and forced cities and transit authorities to buy off brand busses that were not as good. The other possibility is who ever wrote the request for proposal to buy the busses didn’t understand busses and did not specify a bus that would perform adequately. The transit authority was required to buy a cheaper bus and they got what they paid for which was short of what they needed.
Thank you for watching and for your very interesting comment about the trucks! Yes, NYCTA should have had a small test fleet for a few months at least, before buying 851 of them!
These Buses were too light. I think they required heavier stronger parts. The bearings for the steering column wore out .
In our factory bearings were given a record of when they were put in. If it exceeded a certain expiration date it was replaced. Interesting video.
Very interesting informationabout the bearings! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Monterey Salinas Transit received the last new bus order in 1994. Before they closed the doors. VTA had the 870 on property till early 2000’s . Didn’t have the failures like the East coast. Overall not a bad bus to repair.
Thank you for watching and for your interesting comment about the last of the Flxible buses!
Metro in Cincinnati was running these buses in the 2000s northern ky was also running these buses
Thanks for watching and for your comment! I believe Cincinnati bought some of the repaired New York Grummans at bargain-basement prices!
They still have to be better than the piece of crap Gillig buses they keep buying up here in Albany, New York at CDTA, they come from the factory with a laundry list of issues and defects every time they arrive, would you ever accept a brand new car or truck with a shitload of issues? Nobody should! Inexcusable shoddy workmanship!
I worked at CDTA when Gilligs first came. They junk and always been junk .steering shake when hitting pot holes . Jerk on take off and roll back nasty. I use to reject driving them and take a Nabi bus or a nova bus
@@LeemWills what year did you work there? And yes they are garbage buses! A friend who is a mechanic there tells me they come into effective and issue late in every time they arrive, junk!
Thank you for watching and for your comment about the buses in Albany!
Thank you for watching and for your comment about CDTA buses!
@@westwasbest2008 - 2012
Queen City Metro in Cincinnati bought many of the rejects after they were retrofitted with 6V71 and Allison Trans. We got good use out them. My only bitch was that it was MAJOR deal to change out an engine cradle.
Thank you for watching and for your comment! Yes, Cincinnati did buy some of the NYC Grummans!
Columbus, Ohio (COTA) had 100 of them 8101-8199, 1982 Models with 8V71 engines, those buses ran well they lasted until 1995.
These buses ran on the Westchester County Bee-Line from late 1989-2006. I think the MTA are drama queens!
LOL! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I wonder why they did not last long in New York state service yet across the Hudson River on NJ Transit they were simply retired up to the mid 2010s. You can actually see them on the following routes NJ Transit 126 119 108 107 123 125 Midtown Manhattan Lower Manhattan bike rack equipped if fitted 120.
Thank you for watching and for your comment about the NJT Grummans!
I believe that If I remember correctly the MTA was warned about the busses not being able to handle the streets of New York but they didn't care about it
Thank you for watching and for your comment...you may be right!
The SCRTD ran them in Los Angeles for about ten years (7500-7729) until they were replaced by the upgraded Metro series (25xx-29xx) later in 1980s.
Thank you for watching and for your comment about the SCRTD Grummans!
Are you sure it was the SCRTD and NOT the LACMTA?!
@@user-dj7wv5ok2x that was still quite a ways away before the RTD was rebranded to the LACMTA which took place in 1993. The Grummans never lasted long enough on the fleet to sport the Metro logo.
Luckily Broward county transit had Grumman 870's from 1981-96 and they ran those like a champ.
Thank you for watching and for your comment! Good hear they worked well in Florida!
BCT is good at managing buses
It could be worse; Minneapolis refused to buy buses from New Flyer for ages because they tried to sell them a bus without an engine in it (among other QC issues).
Thank you for watching and for your comment! LOL, that's interesting about Minneapolis!
Chicago's RTA had these buses, They wore pulled for crack9frames but returned to service, However they omly lasted for a total of 12 years
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Alot were retired early but some lasted until 1993
I live in Baltimore. Potholes, EVERYWHERE. My truck frames never crack, nor did my car's frame. 😆
LOL, thank you for watching and for your comment!
These Grummans were built primarily out of Aluminum chassis. NYC streets were to pot holed for that chassis. If they had selected the steel chassis there would have been very few problems. Look at the US Military fleet of Hummve's Built out of aluminum but on a sturdy steel frame. Even the classic Land Rover Series I, II, III and Defender models, aluminum on steel chassis and sub assemblies.
Thank you for watching and for your interesting comment!
Goodevening sir. I use to live in South Jamaica Queens and back in the 1980's and the mid 1990's most of all of Queens Private Bus lines Greenline Jamaica Queens Surface and TriBoro Coach had keept there Grumman flexibles running with no to many issues. It was Just NYC MTA and Mapstoa had all jumped ahead and decided to get rid of Grumman Flxble Bus of the Streets. Meanwhile Jamaica Bus had keept the Grumman Flexibles in service from 1980-2001. And Made the MTA look like fools for decided to pull 851 Buses off of the street and with little to not to replacement Buses until the MTA had ordered more GMC RTS 1984. Witch they had started using sense 1981. Sir. And New Jersey Transit had brought most of NYC TA's Grumman flexibles and they had keept them running from 1999-2007 once again the MTA had looked like fools against
Thank you for watching and for your comment! I found your memories of the Grummans with the private operators in Queens very interesting!
David Gunn later ran the Washington, D.C. Metro system, the same agency he leased buses from when he ran NYC MTA.
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
The funny part is, WMATA had order hundreds of Flexible Metros (basically just updated 870s).
My Country took motorhome parts, mercedes benz parts, bus builder axles and old chassis and made a "bus" a Frankenstein piece of work lol.
LOL, that's interesting...thanks for watching and your comment!
Can we all agree that the Gillig Phantom Detroit Diesel 6V92TA series were and still are the best buses ever made?
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Orion 1 buses with the 6v92 was the best
They were powerhouses, Akron, Ohio got the first transit version of the Gillig Phantoms in late 1983 Bay Area built, they almost went with Flxible Metro, but the Gillig Corp. won that bid by a long shot Akron ordered a bunch of them because Gillig met their bus specs.
I found out that flxible went out of business when MTA made their order with them in the 90’s.
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein no problem. I always loved these buses. Seemed these buses lasted years with other agencies. 🤷🏾♂️
did they use these for Liberty Lines busses?
Thank you for watching and for your comment! I don't think so...never saw a LL Grumman.
Better to do a doc about the purchase of DC Neoplan Metro buses in the 80s that kept catching fire.
Thanks for watching and for the suggestion - I'll research that subject!
We had those buses in Dallas Texas they shack alot and smoke they were my favorite bus they got rid of them in 1998 and sold to small bus companies
Thank you for watching and for your interesting comment about Dallas Grummans!
I don’t know if maybe they had air suspension and let the air out but the busses look like they have blown out front suspension in a lot of the photos
Thank you for watching and for your interesting observation!
Wow Gumman had a lot of seats compared to RTS.
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MARTA in Atlanta ran these buses back in the 80's/90s and they were the worst, bad weak suspensions, steering columns would dance all over on the smallest bump. Real KRAPP and dangerous with a full load.
Thank you for watching and for your comment about the Atlanta Grummans!
I loved these buses. (Maryland MTA Rider)
I remember riding in them as a lil kid.
I really liked them too! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Okay your video only over states what was written. It's not the full story or completely true story. First I want all to know Gunn left the NYCTA and went to WMATA and ran their transit authority, ORDERING a huge fleet of Flxibles from Metro Bs to Ds. Derivatives of the Grumman 870s. The Metros incorporated all the fixes that Grumman/ Flxible originally gave various operators the choice to put in their buses at a higher price. New York City and many other authorities decided on buying the cheaper versions instead of buying what was originally suggested to buy from the manufacturer. Once it was ordered by the courts to repair all the buses to how the manufacturer claimed the buses should have been ordered, they returned to service but one caught fire on 56 St in Manhattan sealing their fate with NYC because it was so public what happened. After pulling the buses they were sold to many operators, the largest buyer being New Jersey Transit and their private operators. The buses in public service did anywhere between 19 to 23 years of service. DOESN'T SOUND LIKE JUNK DOES IT. And being that Gunn did years of business with Flxible until their close shows he knew they were good products from the beginning. It was just New York's inability of ordering what was originally recommended from the manufacturer because it would've cost them much more. New York is not the only ones that cheeped out!. By the way.. New York City DOTs Grumman's lasted well into the mid 1990s, with one operator running one into the 2000s. And today in private hands there's 3 to 5 still running. So this should be definitely updated with the correct information as newer generations that never knew the history for themselves don't know only one part of the history.
Thank you for watching and for your detailed comment! I could not possibly do a full history of the Grumman 870 or its offshoots...I used this article because it was somewhat informative as well as amusing - it was basically a snapshot of its time. Since Mayor Koch called them "Junk," it stuck in peoples' minds, and so that's the reputation it somewhat earned in New York.
Maybe I'll do a follow-up video if there's good material that's informative as well as entertaining.
My question is why would you even offer the cheaper, poorer made version if you are then going to tell your potential customers not to buy that version? Also, the purchase of transit buses went to the lowest bidder. Upgrading to the "heavy duty chassis" (amazing that the structurally sound chassis was considered an upgrade) would have obviously cost more money, if your post is to be believed, and that may have changed their status as lowest bidder. I doubt they would suggest something that could jeopardize an 800+ bus order. I've never heard of this alleged "heavy duty chassis" that every single customer refused to order but I did read that the design of the bus itself was flawed which resulted in 2,656 buses being removed from cities across the nation and being rebuilt with changes that would later be implemented in the 870 B and the Metro successors. Time has been kind to the Grummans as they are looked at as some sort of underdog which everyone universally loved. It's only recently that I've heard anything good about them from sources other than obsessed bus fans. What I do know is that if New Flyer put out a modern bus with cracked frames they would be immediately deemed lemons and "overbuilt modern day crap." Ironically what the RTS and Grummans were called by the bus fans of their day. The more things change.....
Same company that made the Lunar Excursion Modules for the Apollo Program.
Thank you for watching and for your comment...yes, quite ironic!
yeah I was in I.S. 49 about this time the back up fleet fell off a pier off Staten Island the bay
Thank you for watching and for your comment! Yes, I do recall reading something about that a while ago!
We had them here in Connecticut, the Grummans sucked. Always breaking down
Thank you for watching and for your comment about the CT Grummans!
Ahhhh NYC during the 80's when the city was soooo much fun and affordable...
LOL, thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein Apologize for being off topic.. but those old photos and pictures of nyc got me thinking about the good ol times
Had to reinforce that rear A frame and shear panels also.
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I thought it was the Rapid Transit Series that had issues. Pretty sure they were pulled from service for a while.
Thank you for watching and for your comment! Yes, the RTS had issue too...found some info on that...will eventually do a video on it.