The North Carolina Board of Examiners for Engineers & Surveyors may be coming around. In mid-May a continuing education seminar for Professional Engineers entitled Unmanned Aircraft Applications for Engineers is taking place in Greensboro. The agenda includes: The Present and Future of Unmanned Aircraft Technologies, Commercial UAS Applications, Mapping Using UAS, Civil Engineering Applications for UAS and Thermal Imaging with UAS. I am in no way affiliated with the people putting on the seminar, but did receive a flyer in the mail announcing this class.
Awesome video! There are haters that are going to fight against the drone technology and spin the idea that there expertise is unmatched but to put it rather plainly, these same people simply do not understand the on board instrumentation of an unmanned aircraft or the technology in general and see it as a threat against their livelihood, which I do kinda get, but as with all industries, technology is always being developed to improve their products and efficiency. Either you get on board or you get left behind. In response to people having a problem with collection methods of data to provide surveyors to get the job done then I leave this analogy: Mechanics don't drive race cars and race car drivers don't fix their cars but both win the race. People have been working together with different expertise and function to solve problems for as long as problems have presented themselves. As for resistance to new technology; If you show me a person with a compass, sexton, and a tool for linear measurement that can do the job as efficiently and accurately as a present day surveyor, and even more so, a surveyor team incorporating drone technology, then I'll eat crow and enjoy it.
You really need to get a licensed surveyor on here to explain this to you, not unlicensed persons who have not reviewed and been tested on their knowledge of the state statutes and rules pertaining to surveying. I am a licensed surveyor and engineer in NC, VA and WV and to offer a mapping service you have to work for a surveying firm as an employee, not a sub-contractor. The law is clear, all work product, including data collection, must be under the "responsible charge" of the surveyor. Responsible charge is direct supervision as an employee. I would hate for someone to listen to this and end up getting investigated and there only defense is "a youtube video said I could do this". The state boards are getting wise to this across the country and someone is going to be made an example of to get the attention of the public. Another couple comments I heard is that "we are not analyzing or interpreting data" and the decision from the state of California regarding methods of collection. First to say you analyzing or interpreting data is incorrect. You planned a mission, collected GPS data, performed a flight, refined the imagery based on your ground control points, refined a point cloud for contours and provided a product. Both the collected GPS data and the refinement of data, including stitching and point cloud cleanup, requires analysis. As for the California rules comment, I think you should look into that further, I don't believe that is what the state concluded but an ESRI task force who is lobbying for the state to change the rules. Also, if you are looking to win over the surveyors and engineers, you probably want to quit talking trash to them. We have to abide to the rules and laws of the states we are licensed in and so does everyone one providing a service in their jurisdiction.
Ronald, I ask this of another surveyor posting on this video, and I will ask you as well if you dont mind. So, I am flying stockpiles for volume estimation monthly with ground control and check points that were laid down by a licensed surveyor. In my report, and in my contact with the customer, I plainly state that I am not a surveyor or engineer and that these results are not adequate for legal or engineering purposes. They are merely an approximation of relative measurements in the project area. I don't represent myself as either of those and actually correct folks I'm talking to when they use the term survey grade accuracy in relation to my work because I want to make sure they do not have that impression. Yes, I do believe that my results are accurate enough for what the intended purpose is. I have a quality report from the software that shows my deviation from established checkpoints within the project area that is usually in the 1 to 1.5 cm range on the x,y and around 2.5 to 3.5 cm on the z. In that particular project area there are 13 GCPs and 3 CPs. In your opinion, is that still in violation??
@@chrisalexander2478 In all honesty it depends on what state you are in and how the laws are worded. If you tell me what state I would have a better idea and could point you in the right direction. In the states I work in it is a violation. As far as the disclaimer, that goes out the window when you sell a product to the public (the public is a client or company paying you). If you went to court it would be thrown out instantly because it is up to you to make sure you are abiding by all of the laws applicable to your product or service. Just like if I wrote a prescription for a friend and had a disclaimer that I wasn't a doctor, that would not hold up.
@@ronaldbfink1978 I am in NC. I completely respect the surveying profession. Im saying that up front because I do, but I respectfully think you are off base on this a touch. If I am clearly not representing myself as a surveyor, and it is clear that I am only giving an estimate of volume with no guarantee of accuracy. I dont see a problem. This isnt for legal or engineering purposes. I see it no different than timber surveys, modeling structures for insurance, modeling structures for fire and rescue pre-planning, modeling commercial building roofs for roofing estimates, measuring parking lots for paving estimates, or making site maps for land application of waste sludge for DENR permit applications and renewals (some of the things I have done). The doctors prescription thing is a bad analogy. That would imply that I am representing myself as a doctor. What I am talking about is nothing of the sort. If someone wanted me to do contour lines as a basis for engineering a highway project I would have to decline. That is a completely different animal. However, were I a sub-contractor being overseen by a licensed surveyor, who then put his stamp on the product then he has taken that responsibility upon himself at that point. This very topic has been of concern for me for some time. That is why I have stressed so much in contact with my customers that they not view these as a survey product.
Ronald Fink curious... has your firm subcontracted aerial photogrammetry from an airplane company? Or do you have licensed pilots that do that on staff?
@@spearkc I do all my own drone work. We have used the services of a plane based aerial company but I made sure they had a LS on staff and a COA to operate in the state we were working in.
Another excellent interview Paul except the bit about old guys don’t like new technology. I am 62 years of age and I am now “obsessed” with drone tech...always loved innovation , this is next level. Keep up the great work engaging and always informative !
In some Canadian provinces, we encounter the same issues with land legal surveyors and engineering associations. They are trying to understand new tools for land data collection and treatment. We create work teams including licensed legal surveyors and professional engineers to check the treated land data to avoid any legal concerns. We also performed three pilot projects to show clients, associations and government approval officers the accuracy and capabilities of the AUV collected data; some rapidly realized that this is the future. On the other hand, Government officials prefer a combination of traditional RTK land survey and drone survey. Also, any plans and calculations must be checked and stamped by a Professional Engineer and Professional Technologist. In a few years, drone survey and land survey databases will be the norm.
Walt's experience does not sound uncommon. It sounds to me as if there is an "old boy" network at work here within the survey board. It wouldn't be surprising to me if those on the inside were into each other's pockets. Construction, land use and capital development is the economic backbone of any civic infrastructure. Ultimately money talks.
14:31 a licensed Land Surveyor would certainly understand ground control points and would be better at accurately locating them. Really all they need to learn is camera settings and pix4d.(as an example) not too difficult really. Part 107 was a breeze too. This isn't rocket science. Photogrametry is on the Land Surveyor exam.
the board is afraid to make a "determination", on issues that are questionable ... they don't want to lose. If the issue goes to court and they lose, they lose control of that issue and lose the right to "invoke"(?), the power to even try to scare non-licensed people into not offering those services. If this issue was specifically defined in "LAW", they would have already stopped the services being provided.
just hire a 70 year-old hack surveyor to sit in the office and twiddle his/her thumb, check your finished product ... With no boundary lines or monuments, I don't even know what a surveyor would certify to.
You apparently don't fully understand the surveying industry. It is much more than simply collecting data with readily available tools .....no more than carving a turkey qualifies you to be a surgeon. Surveyors are "experts" in measurements where experience matters. You may measure a distance with a tape and stipulate the results as certifiable, but did you take into account temperature and other environmental factors that may affect the accuracy of the tape measure itself? Technology should never replace experience and expertise. Yes, data can be collected "by, or under the direct supervision of" a licensed surveyor... but not by a third party without "direct supervision". I have been a registered Civil Engineer in California since 1977 and grandfathered to practice Land Surveying. I have no problem with those who want to collect data for their own personal use. But when you interface with the public, that`s where I draw the line... and by the way, so do the courts.
So, I am flying stockpiles for volume estimation with ground control and check points that were laid down by a licensed surveyor. In my report, and in my contact with the customer, I plainly state that I am not a surveyor or engineer and that these results are not adequate for legal or engineering purposes. They are merely an approximation of relative measurements in the project area. In your opinion, is that still in violation?? I don't represent myself as either of those and actually correct folks I'm talking to when they use the term survey grade accuracy in relation to my work because I want to make sure they do not have that impression. Yes, I do believe that my results are accurate enough for what the intended purpose is. I have a quality report from the software that shows my deviation from established checkpoints within the project area that is usually in the 1 to 1.5 cm range on the x,y and around 2.5 to 3.5 cm on the z.
Time will tell, they will come around, sad though that they treat people so bad, and what's up with NC, lots of strange laws in that state. You made me laugh about old people, Im 65 years young, love technology and drones, you got some old school people out there send to me I'll straighten them out on Drones and Tech.
Great Topic, The ole boy syndrome does seem to be at work; They must be part of the Interstate Highway's never ending construction fiasco. We should be flying manned drones by now. I had a Commercial Realtor ask me to mark property lines on 5 acres. I told her I'm not a licensed surveyer. So she said she will get her " Normal " Guy to do it. for $195.00 I asked for $200.00 to just Video. Oh yeah he's 107 certified she said, oh yeah he's got a surveyors license. Yeah right. Triad drones uh Thanks
The North Carolina Board of Examiners for Engineers & Surveyors may be coming around. In mid-May a continuing education seminar for Professional Engineers entitled Unmanned Aircraft Applications for Engineers is taking place in Greensboro. The agenda includes: The Present and Future of Unmanned Aircraft Technologies, Commercial UAS Applications, Mapping Using UAS, Civil Engineering Applications for UAS and Thermal Imaging with UAS. I am in no way affiliated with the people putting on the seminar, but did receive a flyer in the mail announcing this class.
Awesome video! There are haters that are going to fight against the drone technology and spin the idea that there expertise is unmatched but to put it rather plainly, these same people simply do not understand the on board instrumentation of an unmanned aircraft or the technology in general and see it as a threat against their livelihood, which I do kinda get, but as with all industries, technology is always being developed to improve their products and efficiency. Either you get on board or you get left behind. In response to people having a problem with collection methods of data to provide surveyors to get the job done then I leave this analogy: Mechanics don't drive race cars and race car drivers don't fix their cars but both win the race. People have been working together with different expertise and function to solve problems for as long as problems have presented themselves. As for resistance to new technology; If you show me a person with a compass, sexton, and a tool for linear measurement that can do the job as efficiently and accurately as a present day surveyor, and even more so, a surveyor team incorporating drone technology, then I'll eat crow and enjoy it.
You really need to get a licensed surveyor on here to explain this to you, not unlicensed persons who have not reviewed and been tested on their knowledge of the state statutes and rules pertaining to surveying. I am a licensed surveyor and engineer in NC, VA and WV and to offer a mapping service you have to work for a surveying firm as an employee, not a sub-contractor. The law is clear, all work product, including data collection, must be under the "responsible charge" of the surveyor. Responsible charge is direct supervision as an employee. I would hate for someone to listen to this and end up getting investigated and there only defense is "a youtube video said I could do this". The state boards are getting wise to this across the country and someone is going to be made an example of to get the attention of the public.
Another couple comments I heard is that "we are not analyzing or interpreting data" and the decision from the state of California regarding methods of collection. First to say you analyzing or interpreting data is incorrect. You planned a mission, collected GPS data, performed a flight, refined the imagery based on your ground control points, refined a point cloud for contours and provided a product. Both the collected GPS data and the refinement of data, including stitching and point cloud cleanup, requires analysis. As for the California rules comment, I think you should look into that further, I don't believe that is what the state concluded but an ESRI task force who is lobbying for the state to change the rules.
Also, if you are looking to win over the surveyors and engineers, you probably want to quit talking trash to them. We have to abide to the rules and laws of the states we are licensed in and so does everyone one providing a service in their jurisdiction.
Ronald, I ask this of another surveyor posting on this video, and I will ask you as well if you dont mind. So, I am flying stockpiles for volume estimation monthly with ground control and check points that were laid down by a licensed surveyor. In my report, and in my contact with the customer, I plainly state that I am not a surveyor or engineer and that these results are not adequate for legal or engineering purposes. They are merely an approximation of relative measurements in the project area. I don't represent myself as either of those and actually correct folks I'm talking to when they use the term survey grade accuracy in relation to my work because I want to make sure they do not have that impression. Yes, I do believe that my results are accurate enough for what the intended purpose is. I have a quality report from the software that shows my deviation from established checkpoints within the project area that is usually in the 1 to 1.5 cm range on the x,y and around 2.5 to 3.5 cm on the z. In that particular project area there are 13 GCPs and 3 CPs. In your opinion, is that still in violation??
@@chrisalexander2478 In all honesty it depends on what state you are in and how the laws are worded. If you tell me what state I would have a better idea and could point you in the right direction. In the states I work in it is a violation. As far as the disclaimer, that goes out the window when you sell a product to the public (the public is a client or company paying you). If you went to court it would be thrown out instantly because it is up to you to make sure you are abiding by all of the laws applicable to your product or service. Just like if I wrote a prescription for a friend and had a disclaimer that I wasn't a doctor, that would not hold up.
@@ronaldbfink1978 I am in NC. I completely respect the surveying profession. Im saying that up front because I do, but I respectfully think you are off base on this a touch. If I am clearly not representing myself as a surveyor, and it is clear that I am only giving an estimate of volume with no guarantee of accuracy. I dont see a problem. This isnt for legal or engineering purposes. I see it no different than timber surveys, modeling structures for insurance, modeling structures for fire and rescue pre-planning, modeling commercial building roofs for roofing estimates, measuring parking lots for paving estimates, or making site maps for land application of waste sludge for DENR permit applications and renewals (some of the things I have done). The doctors prescription thing is a bad analogy. That would imply that I am representing myself as a doctor. What I am talking about is nothing of the sort. If someone wanted me to do contour lines as a basis for engineering a highway project I would have to decline. That is a completely different animal. However, were I a sub-contractor being overseen by a licensed surveyor, who then put his stamp on the product then he has taken that responsibility upon himself at that point.
This very topic has been of concern for me for some time. That is why I have stressed so much in contact with my customers that they not view these as a survey product.
Ronald Fink curious... has your firm subcontracted aerial photogrammetry from an airplane company? Or do you have licensed pilots that do that on staff?
@@spearkc I do all my own drone work. We have used the services of a plane based aerial company but I made sure they had a LS on staff and a COA to operate in the state we were working in.
Another excellent interview Paul except the bit about old guys don’t like new technology. I am 62 years of age and I am now “obsessed” with drone tech...always loved innovation , this is next level. Keep up the great work engaging and always informative !
Great video Paul. Great info. Love this Channel.👍👍👍
In some Canadian provinces, we encounter the same issues with land legal surveyors and engineering associations. They are trying to understand new tools for land data collection and treatment. We create work teams including licensed legal surveyors and professional engineers to check the treated land data to avoid any legal concerns. We also performed three pilot projects to show clients, associations and government approval officers the accuracy and capabilities of the AUV collected data; some rapidly realized that this is the future. On the other hand, Government officials prefer a combination of traditional RTK land survey and drone survey. Also, any plans and calculations must be checked and stamped by a Professional Engineer and Professional Technologist. In a few years, drone survey and land survey databases will be the norm.
By the way, love your channel...You guys do really great work. Thanks.
You can always recognize a pioneer .. because they are usually the one running with arrows stuck in their back.. great vid Paul..
Great observation Mark. Paul is right on this one.
We need more Drone industry lobbyists... if you can’t beat em’, join em...
25:07 surveyors both understood how GPS worked and embraced it. What are you talking about?
Walt's experience does not sound uncommon. It sounds to me as if there is an "old boy" network at work here within the survey board. It wouldn't be surprising to me if those on the inside were into each other's pockets. Construction, land use and capital development is the economic backbone of any civic infrastructure. Ultimately money talks.
14:31 a licensed Land Surveyor would certainly understand ground control points and would be better at accurately locating them. Really all they need to learn is camera settings and pix4d.(as an example) not too difficult really. Part 107 was a breeze too. This isn't rocket science. Photogrametry is on the Land Surveyor exam.
the board is afraid to make a "determination", on issues that are questionable ... they don't want to lose.
If the issue goes to court and they lose, they lose control of that issue and lose the right to "invoke"(?), the power to even try to scare non-licensed people into not offering those services.
If this issue was specifically defined in "LAW", they would have already stopped the services being provided.
If you as a non-licensed person think you know more than a land surveyor or civil engineer, you're nuts.
You're mixing up accuracy and precision.
just hire a 70 year-old hack surveyor to sit in the office and twiddle his/her thumb, check your finished product ... With no boundary lines or monuments, I don't even know what a surveyor would certify to.
You apparently don't fully understand the surveying industry. It is much more than simply collecting data with readily available tools .....no more than carving a turkey qualifies you to be a surgeon. Surveyors are "experts" in measurements where experience matters. You may measure a distance with a tape and stipulate the results as certifiable, but did you take into account temperature and other environmental factors that may affect the accuracy of the tape measure itself? Technology should never replace experience and expertise. Yes, data can be collected "by, or under the direct supervision of" a licensed surveyor... but not by a third party without "direct supervision". I have been a registered Civil Engineer in California since 1977 and grandfathered to practice Land Surveying. I have no problem with those who want to collect data for their own personal use. But when you interface with the public, that`s where I draw the line... and by the way, so do the courts.
So, I am flying stockpiles for volume estimation with ground control and check points that were laid down by a licensed surveyor. In my report, and in my contact with the customer, I plainly state that I am not a surveyor or engineer and that these results are not adequate for legal or engineering purposes. They are merely an approximation of relative measurements in the project area. In your opinion, is that still in violation?? I don't represent myself as either of those and actually correct folks I'm talking to when they use the term survey grade accuracy in relation to my work because I want to make sure they do not have that impression. Yes, I do believe that my results are accurate enough for what the intended purpose is. I have a quality report from the software that shows my deviation from established checkpoints within the project area that is usually in the 1 to 1.5 cm range on the x,y and around 2.5 to 3.5 cm on the z.
Time will tell, they will come around, sad though that they treat people so bad, and what's up with NC, lots of strange laws in that state. You made me laugh about old people, Im 65 years young, love technology and drones, you got some old school people out there send to me I'll straighten them out on Drones and Tech.
Great Topic, The ole boy syndrome does seem to be at work; They must be part of the Interstate Highway's never ending construction fiasco. We should be flying manned drones by now. I had a Commercial Realtor ask me to mark property lines on 5 acres. I told her I'm not a licensed surveyer. So she said she will get her " Normal " Guy to do it. for $195.00 I asked for $200.00 to just Video. Oh yeah he's 107 certified she said, oh yeah he's got a surveyors license. Yeah right. Triad drones uh Thanks