What are your thoughts on leveling the playing field between tiers? Do you like introducing environmental factors? How do you balance plot armor? What seeds of weakness do you like to see planted for higher tier enemies?
With magic users, I like to give the more powerful one other things to do besides beat up the other characters. Maybe he has to take out a fort for his followers to get in, or spends a lot of his energy just getting to the location itself. Give the characters more to do besides fight each other and that way you can manipulate them to level the playing field Edit: Just got to the point Dan where you basically say exactly this lmao. Its good to hear you agree with this in your video as this is what I try to do with my fights usually since the power levels of my main characters are all over the place
Joss Whedon says to punish ignorance, not weakness. Supergirl is often stronger than Superman, and Superman is stronger than Wonder Woman, but Wonder Woman beats Supergirl 4/5 times because of her experience, he skill with tools, and an ability to stay cool under heat and strategize.
I am writing a fantasy book based around a war, and I am trying to avoid plot armor as much as I can. I like weak and flawed protagonists who work their way to the top with immense efforts, but i am going to get the protagonist killed towards the end, and I am going to get many people amputated and killed. I hate plot armor and it is better to maim and greatly injure characters time to time, just to make it a bit realistic
@@muhammadhashir6136 Agreed. In my piece not everyone makes it out of the climax city siege alive, and those that do arent always in one piece. It gives the story weight and narrative stakes
Frodo makes a trampolin jump behind Sauron, who grabs him at the neck before Frodo lets go of Sting with one hand and catches it with the other. All while Sauron looks at what he's doing and gets stabbed in the chest and dies. Voilà. Hollywood-level writing.
Here's something I don't think Daniel really touched on enough: Other goals. Your character's goal doesn't necessarily need to be, "BTFO this mofo!" It could simply be something like, "SURVIVE!" Especially if they're two tiers apart. Just survive long enough for help to arrive (of course, you'll need to set up that help is coming before the fight). In Ender's Game, there's at least one instance where, instead of incapacitating all of his opponents, Ender gets one of his soldiers through the enemy's gate, which is the other win condition in that scenario. P.S. I feel like people misuse and overuse the term 'plot armour' a lot. Plot armour is when your character survives for no other reason than because the plot requires it. If there's an in-universe explanation, it ain't plot armour.
absolutely agree, goal should not always be fight, its a lot more interesting when, like in The Hobbit, the goal was to just survive the massive Dragon, not actually kill it
Absolutely! I recently read a book where the protagonist had a crippled leg. And that's exactly what he had to do in fights. Just last long enough for help to arrive.
Fights in real life are scary since even a pro can lose to a beginner if they make one simple mistake. It takes one missed swing, one slight slip up and the fight is over. This is how I write my fights. Granted if there is a magic fight, the rules tend to be different but in physical fights you just have to establish that your beginner fighter tripped them up or changed the environment enough to change the fight and that one simple mistake costed everything. You also have to consider what state of mind the characters are. If someone is on a rampage versus calm and collected, or if one of them had just lost a friend, it's going to effect how they fight. Its about build up and pay off. Establish that either of the characters you want to fight could lose and so that when one wins over the other it had a good reason for happening. Magic fights usually should be done by either the characters exploiting the rules of the magic system or have it be a battle of wills and psychology.
A beginner vs Expert scenario is most dangerous for the expert at the start or in the "feeling out period of the fight". This is where just pure aggression or energy can be used against the expert. I've heard of cases where fencing masters lost duels to amateurs simply because of how aggressive the amateur started. As the fight goes on however, the expert really begins to shine and it's essential all over for the amateur.
@@danialzaman1438 That's true as well. It's about the mindset as well. Mind games are important as well. Granted mind games are usually more of a thing during matches with rules or a fight that is taking longer than usual.
@chinese bot I'm not a swordsman either, it is just something I heard from I think a scholagladiatoria video (can't remember exactly). I think the difference is though that an inexperiance fighter is most likely not gonna be able produce enough power to hurt you but even a stab with poor technique is going to be potentially fatal. This is why most experianced swordsman are going to be defensive as even one mistake is going to be deadly. I think the best fighting equivalent is if you had to fight an inexperienced fighter who was somehow able to produce Mike Tyson levels of power. It doesn't mean he will win but him just being aggressive raises the stakes much higher.
SPOILER ALERT for The Rage of Dragons 🐉... I love when a character's handicap becomes their strength. In The Rage of Dragons, Tau's right hand becomes relatively disabled so he starts training with his left. After numerous bouts of training, humiliating loses, and hard fought victories he becomes even better than he would've been with his original fighting hand. When he finally confronts his father's killer in the arena, who would've almost certainly outclassed him in any other circumstance, his opponent makes a mistake by wrongly predicting which hand he'd strike with and it turns the tide of the entire fight from there. I love how an author is able to use something like that to BELIEVABLY turn the tide in a highly anticipated fight scene 🗡
Nice one but it wouldn't work in all situations. Using your left hand is an advantage, but using two is a much greater one (though you can still strap a shield to your arm.) Personnaly i recall a book where one of the character is paraplegic. At one moment he manage to grapple the main vilain by luring him. And because relying so much on his arms actually made him very strong, he's apple to hold him firmly as they plunge into a river and drown.
@@benjaminthibieroz4155 spoiler for the book but he does end up using both hands at one point and he fucking wrecks everything its soo satisfying, i think i might reread the book now bc god damn is the character arc for The Rage of dragons satisfying
Don't bur out, but a burn out video could be very useful! You could team up with others and just talk about times you've all burned out and how to avoid it. Maybe even how it helped (even if it was in small ways)
Morgoth vs Fingolfin is probably one of the best fight scenes with characters of different tiers. It has a back and forth that's enthralling and it ends in a realistic manner.
King in "One Punch Man" has a plot armor. He's power was described by fans as luck and charisma cause' everytime someone wants to kill him he talks it off and run away when someone else destroy the villain.
In a short story I wrote, the primary character knows that he cannot win in a fight against 20ish guys all at once. What he ends up doing is that he actually retreats into a narrow hallway so that he could take on these mooks two or three at a time, which he absolutely can do. Environmental factors are really cool to do when done properly, instead of "Rocks fall, Chester dies".
I love the way Vin thinks through her fights in mistborn. She quiet frequently wins her fights against people who are theoretically a level above her because she works out a clever way of utilising the magic during the fight that is set up separately earlier and it is always very satisfying
Honestly vin is the main reason I gave up on mistborn. She's such a typical edgy ya character and so unlikeable and I'm finding it so boring to get through cos of her. Im gonna try a give it another chance but I swear if I see another "vin frowned" I'm gonna rip my head off.
Anirudh how should someone with Vins background behave? Personally I think characters with “tragic backstories” that act like nothing happened are far more annoying and immersion breaking. She’s hardly the way she is for no reason. Each to their own though, but while Vin grows she never stops being herself. So if you are sensitive to that kind of character she probably doesn’t change enough for you.
This one I am sharing with y'all on behalf of my medical professional mother: don't have your guy get punched in the face unless you intend for him/her to have a broken or dislocated jaw, broken nose, severely damaged vision, concussion, and/or missing teeth. Unexpected hits to the torso can result in organ ruptures, internal bleeding punctured lung, broken ribs...my point is, after seeing the actual results of real bar fights in the ER, she never finds fights in movies very believable. If your character is going to walk away from a fight with minimal damage, make sure they are armored, super powered, or they are good at blocking and dodging hits. Even I, a not physically strong, not well trained cis female human, can palm strike through two inches of wood. That's easily enough force to break a jaw or nose if I landed the hit. tl;dr: make the consequences of your fight believable within the limits and skills of your characters and your world. Fighting seriously injures people.
You should review the bartimaeus trilogy, everyone that I have seen talking about it has liked it, but there aren't that many who have. I definitely think that this series deserves more attention
I loved when I was a kid reading it and I'm afraid to read it again because I don't want to ruin my memories of the story. Would you say I can read it again safely?
@@chillmann2433 I must admit that it has been a while since I read it, but I remember elements such as worldbuilding and character arcs as being very good
@@emilormasenvallersnes4016 I feel like I remember it well too. The grow of the main character and this whole arc with the rebels and this girl. Okay as I think about it I will start reading it again :D Did you enjoy de prequel "the ring of salomo"?
Discovered you a little over a month ago. I used to love reading when I was younger, and sort of fell out of it while in high school when they made it an obligation. Recently I've been reading as an effort to help dealing with anxiety, and your videos have helped keep me motivated to continue reading. Additionally, you have also given me methods to cope with anxiety and stress, as I am starting a journal after hearing you say it really helps. Appreciate you dude, you clearly deserve more recognition
Hey, you mentioned your book and I thought I'd bring up something that happened to me. I was in between novels after finishing the first Gentleman Bastards book and really just had an itch for an interesting world. I realized I wanted to read about those sorcerers who create radiation every time they use magic, I absolutely just wanted to find that story and read it. It took me a few days to realize that it was your unpublished world I had thought of. So you did it, you've gotten my attention real good
I love the fact that you have a tierlist for your own story so much :D One thing I love in a book is when authors take the time to set up how strong characters are relative to each other, and to make it payoff in the fights. Besides what happens in the fight, building up to it and establishing power levels is super important to a story imo.
Thank you Daniel, this is a fantastic framework for writing characters regarding different levels of power. I can't wait to read whatever narrative you come up with, im sure you will positively influence future of fantasy and im so excited to see that happen.
Hey, man. Just wanted to take the time to honestly thank you for your videos. My wife and daughter are across the country, and my daughter was just in the hospital. she’ll be alright, but watching your videos and reading what you suggest has helped me manage this crazy time. Thank you :)
I liked this video. I think it would be fun to see you go through a bunch of examples of books (or movies) that have fights of vary-ing differences in power level, and to talk about why some work (and why some don't work as well, if you have examples there too). Tough ask without too much spoilery stuff though.
I love how much thought clearly goes into your videos. They're so interesting and I feel like not many people would think of making them. Anyways, who doesn't love a good tier list. 👍🏻
As a writer who writes a lot of action, this video was really helpful. I just realized this is something I always subconsciously did, but hearing you talk about it is definitely gonna help me be more methodical, and I guess I'm gonna create this list for my characters too. Excellent advice.
Environmental factors I remember being a huge part of the Redwall series' fights. Something that really set these apart was that it was never random and almost always tactically used by the fighters.
Great Teacher but if it’s something important you can’t just quit regardless of how hard things get. Like do you want Frodo to just fuck off and stop trying to destroy the ring because it’s “too hard”
@@brendan9868 Frodo and the squad spent most of the first book running from ring wraiths and orcs. Frodo's pov is mostly a stealth mission so fighting is kept to a minimal.
@@brendan9868 writers aren't your parents. It's not their job to teach you. They're there to tell you a story. The psychological stories that can be told with characters not being able to face the enemy and the shame of running are interesting.
I personally thought the Harry potter fight felt super anti-climactic because there was so much build up but Voldemort just had his spell bounce off. It totally made sense in the story but Voldemort already had his spell bounce off in the past, so it felt a bit off.
I think fights between charcters that are far part in power can be great, but it is really hard to make it satisfing. Resently I read a story where the main character had only the ability to travel back in time through death but besides that he had almost nothing. The antagonist could rip out tree from the ground and throw horses around with ease. To win the main charcter relied on his knowledge about the guy and his allies which could use magic to weaken him. His allies where defeated but he knew the antagonist was to kindhearted and used that against him since the guy was holding back. When the two faced of the main character sacrificed what little magic he could do forever so the could just get this (already beaten up) guy down to his level with the help of another ally and won the following one vs. one fist fight just barely. I think this was an awesome fight. It is just hard for an author to bridge a big power gab without making it meaningless or cheap.
Great Video. I really like the points you make. What i personally also find to be very interesting, are fights, were the powers are not on the same level and you are supposed to route for the stronger one. Which then either ends in a beatdown or a battle with higher stakes, which is very hard to do right.
@Alex Feak She logically is as far as combat is concerned. Talking about the show, she has merely 3 months of training in a combat style that is uneffective in most combat situations of this world, all while being a female teenager. So E it is.
@Alex Feak That's the problem. What we see of her fighting abilities in the show (fighting wights and duelling with Brienne) is totally absurd and undeserved. As I said, she has few training and uses a useless style (smallsword. Her training in staff/double spear is even shorter). Brienne was trained like a knight since her childhood and has been through numerous fights, including to the death. We're talking about a woman that has manly size and strength along with 20 years of practice at least. So do you really think Arya would jump to her level in a few weeks? Also, her gaining shapeshifting abilities is another undeserved absurd gift. I consider that Arya escaped all form of logic after S6 E8. If she was to be portrayed in a logical way, most of the soldiers in Westeros would beat her in a duel. I usually consider a trained soldier in gear to be on C tier, so D for Arya may be more accurate. But no way above. They arbitrarly decided Arya would be invincible and win the glory over far more best suited characters, purely for fan-service reason. I loved Arya until the end of season 6. After that, she fall to Rey's level of bullshit.
One way of having a low tier character take down a really high tier character is to set up a sort of debilitating weakness, a fatal flaw of some sort. This can come off really cheap, but it works pretty well in Steelheart by Brandon Sanderson.
Expelliarmus is not a particularly usefull spells in this situation. I do however agree that Ron could end the fight in a single spell for example with stupify. Then again the character rankings in this video are wildly inconsisten anyways.
@@parsifal7300 I think that most of it would just come down to the willingness to fight, and Luke certainly has him bested there. Luke doesn't mind a little indiscriminate killing. Ron has never killed anyone before.
I don’t think you understand how strong Luke is in the books or comics. I’m talking space Jesus, control black hole, faster than the eye can see by far strong. Ron is nowhere near that level.
@@oliverh.1694 But with the force you essentially have precognition that allows you to block projectiles. Maybe you can't block a spell with a lightsaber, but I think it's reasonable that you could dodge it.
For me, everything is context with how believable a fight is. I have read some incredibly overpowered fights that I absolutely did not mind because it suited the context so well. From handicaps, to how skill is applied, the stakes involved, everything depends on the context enhancing whatever writing technique you choose to illustrate the fight. If the fight is not a duel, that also adds a lot of factors that you can use. I think whatever you do, consistency of style is important, because there is some value in the understanding you build with your readers, to stir anticipation as they attune to it. I think Robert Jordan's sword forms is a pretty good example, in that way. I don't use any kind of structured power chart or anything when I write, though obviously there is still some kind of mental hierarchy centered around most key characters and their traits. When there is an obvious difference in two characters facing off, I think depending on how you want it to go, make use of established rules within your world rather than chance if you can, because it easily becomes such that you as a reader pause to think "The string of luck to achieve this..." or "Why is x fumbling so much in this fight" which can be fine once in a while, but if it happens constantly... I think for achilles heels planted a really common one is arrogance which is fun to write but also a little tired in my opinion, at least when it is only found in the antagonist. Still, it has its place! I think you can use most anything for this, although I must say personally my least favourite is like a fated weakess to a certain weapon or something like that, as it locks my writing in so much if I don't build other factors on top, but that's merely preference. I personally enjoy writing each character with (hopefully) believable flaws that can be exploited, but... and I guess it ties to the above, they don't strictly have to be, it's just a possibility. Anyway... that's me rambling, I'll end it there. :)
I love videos like these! Its nice to see people addressing on how to make things FEEL better for the audience. This was a great dive into technical aspects, do you have any more ideas like this? I’d love to hear your opinion on writing in the future
The anime Yu Yu Hakusho does this well at one point. Characters in the show are *literally* put into tier lists: S, A, B, and so on. The main character is a cocky kid who has leveled up to S tier, the strongest of the strong. At one point in the show he comes up against a D class character. (asterisk here but it’s unimportant, lol.) The D class fighter beats him by exploiting his overconfidence and uses his unique ability to essentially trap the main character. Obv he can’t actually hurt him cuz there’s too much of a power gap, but he does subdue him and win the fight.
The writers follow up series(hunter x hunter) is the king of those types of fights. The main characters are literally underpowered vs every major conflict. They either outsmart the opponent or they win at a major cost or even straight up lose. There's even a main op villian that the 2 main characters never fight or even talk to because they aren't anywhere near his level so it's left up to others
Neat video. You can also combine think about combining these tricks. Magic tool and environment combine especially well. I wrote a novel where MC adventured through a dungeon with various environmental factors and eventually gained a measure of control over the place. He then used it for a final showdown, pulling every trick he'd previously solved against the BBEG who was maybe 2 or 1.5 tiers apart.
Dresden does this very well. Harry is often outclassed, but he's smart, has good friends, and sometimes just straight up cheats, and so in the end his victory over more powerful forces feels earned.
I love that about Dresden. Each ally serves as another weapon in Dresden's arsenal, along with things like his staff and blasting rod. Then the author keeps things interesting by mixing and matching allies and weapons in each book to keep the fights interesting. And then there's Ghost Story.
Think your comparison with Frodo and Sauron is spot on. Not only would a fight between the Frodo and Sauron never work because of the power difference but the actual scuffle between Frodo and Sam and Gollum is kind of perfect anyway, maybe aside from the fact Gollum stumbles to his death. By the time they fight; all three are exhausted, malnourished and dehydrated. There's a personal history between the three that wouldn't exist between the hobbits and Sauron which adds a layer to the fight that Frodo Sauron wouldnt have. Ultimately, the fight itself is exactly what it should be; scrappy and desperate. Both Gollum and Frodo are under the rings total control by this point and want nothing more than to claim it for their own. Gollum is gangly and dirty in his approach to fighting while Frodo is just a hobbit. Neither are seasoned warriors at their peak utilising every bit of their experience and talent in combat. They're simply desperate beings in a desperate unorthodox scuffle. Tolkien nailed their standoff.
From a film perspective Harry Potter has weak fights. The best fight is Dumbledore vs Voldemort in Phoenix, it's spectacular to look at, has a real back and forth where it's not clear who has the upper hand, they use multiple incredible spells; a flaming basilisk, fire wave, water sphere, shadow magic, a storm of glass turned back to sand. It feels like master wizards battling and they don't just SPAM THE SAME COMBO. Then you have the emotional pay off with Harry and Voldemorts internal confrontation. . Meanwhile, in Hallows they just do red vs green while glaring at each other and grunting. Then Harry's red beats Voldys green because his wand didn't like him... LMAO. Maybe it was made in china all along. Their fight in Goblet of Fire was passable because it was only their introduction, a spar. But at this point in the story, there should be something more dynamic and awesome. I know, it's better in the books, it always is.
One of my favourite fight scenes in literature is Locke Lamora vs Capa Razza because of Locke's "I've had enough of this shit" attitude at the start giving him more of an edge until Razza ltierally says "you're not very good at this, are you?" and then Locke has to give up on bluffing and resort to outsmarting him. Brilliantly written fight between a weak character and a very strong proficient swordsman
Solo Leveling (korean webtoon/novel) uses thanos snap. It was very effectiv! The first OP character were the fights, character building, etc. stays fine throughout the story.
My personnal list before watching: 1) Regular swords do not cut through metal. REGULAR SWORDS DO NOT CUT THROUGH METAL FOR F**** SAKE! (and they don't magically "thrust in the gap" either just because the character needs it.) 1.5 If in position, an experienced warrior will pick the weapon most suited for the situation. In battle, it's almost never the sword. 2) Having superhuman feats is no excuse to make flashy stupid move. A warrior will always use the best ways to win, meaning usual technique (though he can toy if he knows the adversary is no match). Usually, the more flashy a move, the less useful it is in combat. 3) Training and experience are more important than everything and make a huge difference. A peasant defeating a trained and equipped soldier in a fair duel is bullshit. 4) Training to fight takes time. Years. Many years. 5) There are a lot of different ways to fight. If a character never trained the proper techniques for a certain type of oponent, he would be screwed. 6) ARMOR DOES NOT MAKE YOU SLOW OR CLUMSY, but it protects you a lot. Armor is a gamechanger and bypassing it is hard. 6.5. Boobs armor is stupid and not needed. Bikini armor is useless. 7) Bows require a lot of strength, can't be drawed for more than a bunch of seconds and will not pierce plate. 8) Having two guys keeping pushing their swords toward each other is bullshit. There a lot of effective move they can do in that position, which make it very risky. 9) IF YOU FIGHT AN ARMED MAN WITH YOU BARE HAND YOU DIE! (unless you have some supernatural abilities. If not, ou die. No need to argue, you die.) 10) Injuries hurt. Injuries make you weak. Injuries can kill you even after the fight. injuries aren't just for generic characters. 11) Fights are disgusting. People bleed, lose their limbs, scream in pein, shiver in terror, piss themselves and beg for their lives. Sanitize and edulcorate fight is a bad thing to do. 12) If magic exist and is spread, magic influence non-magic-users fighters: what equipments, tactics, techniques and training are useful to fight magic-users? That's my first brainstorming. Let's watch now: So turns it's about justifying that very juicy situation: how do I win against someone stronger than I am? Hum... I think: 1) Don't make a huge gap. If characters are too much apart, you may make it believable, but it would probably feel unearned and definitely won't be a fight. Unless you suddenly nerf the stronger guy, wich is the worst thing to do. 2) Technique. Every one has a weakness in his style. No one is good at everything. A thai boxer may destroy a jujitsu praticionner with punches, but if this one take the boxer to the ground, the boxer is screwed. Same goes with different weapons, tactics, magic style...Ask yourself what are the strong points of the strongest guy, if a counter exists, and if it could apply. Needless to say that the weaker guy needs to be trained to that counter, and that the stronger one would be aware of his weakness as well. 3) Environnment. You're nimble? Fight you ennemy on a slippery surface. You can't smell? Bring you ennemy into a filthy place full of pestilence. You're very endurent to cold weather? Use that difference against your ennemy. Environnments (terrain, sensations, place,...) can play a huge part. Establish the weaker character as comfortable (or at least more comfortable) in it, and purposely trap the stronger one in it. My personnal favorite: SPOLIER ALERT (the witcher) !!!! : Ciri using ice skates to fight her hunters in the Witcher book 6 in a middle of a frozen lake. 4) Psychology. (I do not mean the surge of will or power of friendship, this is motivation, not competence, and a tired trope). Have the stronger character having a weak point: arrogance, overconfidence, phobia, sensitivity,... build it up, have the weaker character know of it and make him exploit it. 5) Previous weakening. The stronger character may have make a lot of effort before the fight, lack rest, gets drunk or intoxicated...The more involved his adversary in this the better, or sett it off properly if it's a personnal flaw. 6) Equipment. Have a common soldier with a spear or sword fight the world champion in boxing just using his bare hands...the soldier is likely to win. Have an exeptionnal swordman without an armor fight a moderately good one with mail...now they're closely matched. You got the point. Just make it a clever use instead of the mac-guffin suddenly playing his part. 7) Sneakery and suprise. May not be a fight. But just inflicting a severe wound will close the gap. FORBIDDEN: monologue. A character refusing ot resort to "dirty and dsihonourable tricks" (except if you want to make a satire out of it). On a personnal level from my second novel: My protagonist had to fight in the arena a warrior that previously enslaved and traumatized her. She was trained (5 years of intense swordfighting), but he was stronger and more experienced. So it was unbalanced, but I resolved it these ways: - The guy was (obviously) very confident in his ability to subjugate her, but had his own insecurities. So he fought a bunch of others guys before and had a drink. Nothing serious, but it already tired him a little bit. - In a previous chapter, I established my protagonist' ability to quickly adapt and create solution on the run as she fight, something she had been intensely trained for years. As her ennemy is using a longsword, she switched to a rapier and dagger style, which has deadly and deceptive moves against it. - On the same note, she purposely exploit his desire to dominate her by willingly jumping a bit below him in a slope. He's trapped because he has the impression to dominate...except that having the high ground in a sword fight is actually a severe disadvantage, which she immediatly use to wound his leg. - Consequently, the guy start to lose his temper. Being in a situation he never faced as an elite privileged warrior make him quite unable to adapt. - Rest is more tied to her background and other disciplines she trained in, which gave her the physical advantage in the situation. For example: she used to be an excellent climber and so catch the blade of this sword once it's blocked and manage to hold it, creating an opening to strike him one more time. All of this to say that pure strenght and skill do not make everything. The context of the fight will have an huge influence, and whoever master the context gain advantage.
Environmental factors effecting the fight should be the most natural thing to do. After all, we know any epic fight scene is required to involve at least two of the following: - a raging storm - lava - over 10 m freefall - 30 acres of free room for stuff and/or characters fly - explosions - Clint Eastwood
Interesting ! I can only see 2 ways to solve the frodo vs sauron situation: 1) to attack a weak spot (such as a magic ring, or use kryptonite) or 2) destroy the evil being on a psychological level to make it give up the fight or join the heroes (kind of like luke vs vader and palpatine).
Pratchett's "Sourcery" ends with a pretty solid example of the huge disparity fight, can't really think of anywhere else I've seen it pulled off satisfyingly.
Percy Jackson the lightning theif Percy fights a god and wins, and it’s believable because he is in the ocean and the god wasn’t going full force. Idk I just really liked that fight
I think the only "man VS god" battle/conflict that has the good guys winning and having it feel satisfying os during the Gravity Falls "Weirdmaggedon" when Bill Cypher is tricked by Stanley and Stanford Pines.
Thanks Daniel, you put a few things in perspective that I didn't really stop to think about before, good stuff. As a bit of feedback, I think this format of video would do really well if you showed an example, it is alright if you want to keep it spoiler free but since you're taking on writing, you can always make a example of what you're commenting about on your own.
Made me think of that scene In red Seas Under Red Skies when Locke kills all those dudes by dropping a wine barrel on them and everyone thinks he’s a badass but he’s actually just extremely lucky
Environment really does matter, but more importantly, environmental awareness can make or break a fight. One thing I've noticed when teaching new players in my larp group is that there is an insane amount of tunnel vision while fighting. You're putting all your focus on the warrior in front of you that you don't notice you're about to trip over an exposed root. Some players take advantage of the tunnel vision issue. I've seen a players force others into accidentally back into trees or sometimes run into their own teammates. That would be a nice and nasty trick for a villain to pull, only for the hero to do the same thing to them later in the book.
I really liked what you said about (even if the character survives) there being consequences. Joe Abercrombie and George RR Martin are not afraid to dismember and brutalise characters. It means that even when I know they’re going to survive, I’m still worried because I want to know what scars they will have to carry. It gives a cost for characters who aren’t prepared for the fight.
Anybody that wants a true masterclass in building up stakes and hype and story for fight scenes should seriously consider studying pro wrestling. Week after week after week of nothing but establishing combatants, stakes, abilities, grudges and telling stories through the medium of two or more people having a fight. It's got everything
A good example of where this type of narrative logic was thrown out the window was with SW The Force Awakens, when Rey, who hasn't trained a DAY, is able to match Kylo and even beat him fairly easily. Even if she's meant to be a SpEcIaL, it feels cheap, and could have been done in a far better way. For example, if Kylo was toying with Rey and Fin, underestimating them etc, and they managed to just barely survive, or even if Rey just managed to pull off a haymaker after getting molly-whopped, that would've made more narrative sense. But no, he was going FULL BLAST, and ray was able to easily beat him because she's a SpEcIaL FeMaLe HeRo who can do no wrong!... unlike, oh, I don't know, Sarah Connor, Ellen Ripley, Sidney from Scream, Trinity, The Bride from Kill Bill, Furiosa, Wonder Woman, and all the other real female action heroes who go through struggle and adversity, and therefore their triumph is more meaningful, realistic, and satisfying. There's a reason Luke fought Vader for the first time in Empire and not in New Hope. And even then he lost.
I agree so much. Many try to justify it by saying that Kylo was injured and shaken with emotions (having just killed his father). But even then he would have destroyed her. There's no way this fight was satisfying as a lightsaber duel. Toying and arrogance would have been just as cheap to me. Because it's indeed a D vs A (giving Kylo advantage because lightsaber) without a proper build-up. Having Rey and Finn just trying to survive and escape (while probably suffer anyway) would have make much more sense, make them feel more insecure about future fight and establish Kylo as intimidating. But instead let's have the protagonist easily crush the main antagonist at one third of the story. What could go wrong?
Seconded. One of the things I liked about Star Wars in terms of it's "chosen ones", Luke and Anakin (I will not acknowledge Rey) is while they may have been special, or chosen, or whatever, they still had to work/train/get help to make use of that. Luke's a good pilot? Nope, Vader still crushes his squadron mercilessly till Han arrives. He's a newly trained Jedi? Vader beats his ass and makes him cry. More training, exceptional circumstances, then he pulls a win. It feels earned. Anakin is "the chosen one"? Dooku lops off his arm and only doesn't kill him cause Yoda scares him off. It takes him level grinding through a war and training before he can take him in the next move.
I like your Teir-List explanation. When I've been thinking about fights that occurred in things I've watched or I'm planning to put into my stories I often try to rationalise out-comes through a similar logic, maybe it's because I played so much Top-Trumps as a kid. But if you ever come back to this topic, would you mind expanding on the follwoign topics? -Fights where one character is just getting trashed. The most obvious reason for having this happen is for the character who gets trashed to be buying time for their comrades. It's not about the fight but the heroism of the sacrifice. While a slightly different scenario, I think of the scene in Deathly Hallows where Nevil gets tortured by Voldermort towards the end, not really a fight but I feel it is relevant. -Fights where where a character is introduced to the tier list. This character might be one we tend not to think of as a combatant of they may only have been introduced to the narrative a few pages ago (or they even just jumped out of the shadows and attack). How can this be done without feeling like a 'nobody' character is just being rammed into the A tier becuase otherwise they couldn't challenge the hero and the story would be boring. -Populating your tier list. A poor distribution of characters on the good and bad side can ruin the stakes. I'm going to specifically mention the T.V show Transformers Prime here. It seemed like the main cast of hero autobots were all As and Ss, and only seemed to be their because they'd lose if they weren't and one of the main antagonists (Starscream), came across as suspisciously low when one considers his place as the second in command for the villains.
The second point, I'm not sure i could think of a really good example of where this was executed well or badly. But I'll make myself unpopular by saying this was done badly near the beginning of the Way of Kings. Szeth, the assassin, seems to be in the S tier, principally because if he wasn't then the assassination sequence wouldn't be so spectacular. Four Hundred or so pages later (byt the end of part one), I still don't understand why he is so much stronger than every character in the narrative, (I mean, why can nobody else surge-bind? And why weren't the castle defences at-all prepared for a surge-binder).
Dresden 1 Stormfront had a great final showdown because the bad guy ( forgot his name) was new to magic but fully healthy, whereas Harry was fatigued and injured and barely able to stand, but he had all the know-how which gave him the edge. Using a broom to magically sweep away golem-like scorpions? Freaking Genius!!
5:19 that example is also, without spoiling anything, played for poetic irony considering the object involved, what it represents, who it kills, and how it kills them. It's quite brilliant, actually. In fact, again without spoiling anything, considering the status of the characters, the words spoken, and other related factors, it's a far better resolution than a straightforward defeat would've been. Also, Abercrombie is so diverse with his method of killing characters, especially in this particular book Daniel's referring to, it's a cool, unexpected turn. Plus, it happens after a significant struggle, and is played for effect and remarked on by the characters involved.
@@laconsuela69 True. But funny enough, that's precisely the obsession of Gollum for the ring that make him do everything to take it back and struggle with Frodo. In the book, he even fall by accident because of how joyful he his. If the ring hadn't seduced gollum, Frodo would have just run away, fall to the hands of nazguls, and Sauron would have won. So In the end, the most terrible power of the ring (corrupt his possessers) actually bring to his downfall.
Something else that didn’t come up in the video, is having power imbalance battles decided with the weaker/lower tier hero having backup. Bunch of b or c tier people defeating an a tier, for example.
I don't know that focusing on power levels is necessarily the best way to approach a combat scene. That can too easily become a routine of logic and lose the emotions that truly make a combat sequence powerful. I think there are 3 components of a good fight scene: 1. Choreography How the characters interact with each other and their environment. How is the fight affecting the environment, how is the environment affecting the fight, how are these characters affecting each other? 2. Kinesiology How each character handles their physical bodies, or how they are moving. How are their physical attributes (strength, training, weapons, etc) affecting their movement? How is the fight affecting their movement? 3. Psychology How are the characters feeling? What are the stakes of the fight? Why are they fighting? What are they feeling as they fight? How do their emotional states affect the fight and how does the fight affect their emotional states? Obviously, these three will blend and blur together in the scene. In all three categories, real-life experience can provide a depth...your own experience and that which you have gained from listening to others. Some writers focus more heavily on one component or another, but for me, the stand-out combat scenes are those which have so incorporated all three so that the mechanics of the scene fade into the background. You are there, the characters are there, the fight is raging. Outside reality blurs. Example: the chapters “Bigwig Stands His Ground” and "The Sky Suspended" in Watership Down. Hands-down my favorite combat scene of any medium. Choreography: Bigwig's environment is both stage and stakes. The environment provides limitations to both characters and both try to make use of it. Kinesiology: both characters' physical attributes shape the fight. The fight is wearing and takes a toll on both. These tolls affect the fight. Physics...is very important in this fight. Psychology: *why* Bigwig is standing his ground is the most important element to him and a gosh-darn victory in and of itself and plays a key role in the final resolution. If this sequence is boiled down to the respective power-levels of the characters, it would lose much of its impact. The details are stage and props, the play is in psychology. Focusing too much on the power levels risks losing sight of the words and emotions which will stick in the hearts of readers long after the details are forgotten or misremembered.
3:11 This is just explaining why all the fights in JoJo work. They do a ton of power and intelligence foreshadowing to clue the viewer/reader in on why x wins a fight against y, even across generations of the main cast.
An excellent video! All great points. I think underdog winning is a bit overdone in speculative fiction in general. As you say, unless the author takes the time and effort to set it up very well, it can look highly unbelievable as the discrepancy in skill, power and experience gets beyond a certain point, and the weaker character (usually the hero) is supposed to come out on top. And yes, a direct fight between Frodo and Sauron would be absurd, as the former is clearly insanely outclassed. * As a side note, Sauron would be an S tier character if looking at the Lord of the Rings alone, yes. If you look at the entirety of the Tolkien legendarium, including the Silmarillion, he would be pushed down. The S tier characters (combat-wise) in that case would be Melkor/Morgoth the first Dark Lord (and Sauron’s master, after Sauron went over from serving Aulë), probably Tulkas the Champion of the Valar and maybe one or two other characters/beings (one or two other Valar as well as Ungoliant come to mind). And that is provided that you exclude Eru Ilúvatar (= the supreme deity or God if you will). If you include him, even those would be pushed down to A, and Sauron would be pushed down to B. I would say that tiers are most certainly relative, in that way. In truth, I am not sure you could say discrete tiers actually exist. It is just a continous scale of skill, power and experience. But I guess tiers work as a convenient enough simplification. Overall, though, great video. As I wrote above, I agree with all your major points, despite my side notes.
Regarding the protagonist overcoming powerful foes, I think something has to be said. I think that is also important that the subordinates of the main antagonist are powerful forces in their own right (at list some of them). The hero struggles against them, but when he overcomes someone like that, he grows a lot. New powers, esperience etc. Just overall stronger. I think that this is important because : 1) It's more coherent. When the Hero will fight the final villain (the big boss) he will already be someone of note himself. Maybe the final villain is still much stronger than him. Maybe he will still kick his butt the first time. But It's more believable than someone that literally jumps 10 tiers during the final battle. 2) It places a certain respect on the subordinates as well. Those guys are no joke and can kick your ass. By making them powerful, it also hypes up the main villain, naturally.
But ultimately, the villain does have to at least be perceived to be stronger or there's no stakes in the final fight. Or if they are perceived to be weaker, then the antagonist pulls out some other trick that makes him stronger, or takes away a weapon or ally from the protagonist.
Something I enjoy is when there are very subtle clues throughout the story that when pieced together all point towards a later reveal which can then explain why someone who is believed to be a C-Tier character could have somehow overpowered an A-Tier character early in the story. Something where the Author CLEARLY had planned from the very beginning, and as the story progressed perceptive readers may have been able to work out. Especially if it's a multi book journey, and the very first hints were all the way back in book one, and the reveal comes in like book four or five. A reveal dropped later on to justify an earlier fight where they should have lost but didn't without any indication beforehand is a big red flag for me. No clues? No dice. I will firmly believe that it was pulled out of nowhere to silence attempted criticism at obvious plot armor.
In my books, I'm implementing a DND kind of system. Nothing as complex as the actual RPG, but just a number for strength, intelligence, and dexterity, with modifiers for certain powers and weapons. I haven't gone too far with it just yet, but I hope it can help me eliminate any inconsistencies with, not just fighting abilities, but other aspects of their personality as well.
![On Writing: Fight Scenes! [ Sanderson | GoT | The Shining | Dragon Tattoo ]](/img/1.gif)
What are your thoughts on leveling the playing field between tiers? Do you like introducing environmental factors? How do you balance plot armor? What seeds of weakness do you like to see planted for higher tier enemies?
With magic users, I like to give the more powerful one other things to do besides beat up the other characters. Maybe he has to take out a fort for his followers to get in, or spends a lot of his energy just getting to the location itself. Give the characters more to do besides fight each other and that way you can manipulate them to level the playing field
Edit: Just got to the point Dan where you basically say exactly this lmao. Its good to hear you agree with this in your video as this is what I try to do with my fights usually since the power levels of my main characters are all over the place
Joss Whedon says to punish ignorance, not weakness.
Supergirl is often stronger than Superman, and Superman is stronger than Wonder Woman, but Wonder Woman beats Supergirl 4/5 times because of her experience, he skill with tools, and an ability to stay cool under heat and strategize.
I am writing a fantasy book based around a war, and I am trying to avoid plot armor as much as I can. I like weak and flawed protagonists who work their way to the top with immense efforts, but i am going to get the protagonist killed towards the end, and I am going to get many people amputated and killed. I hate plot armor and it is better to maim and greatly injure characters time to time, just to make it a bit realistic
@@muhammadhashir6136 Agreed. In my piece not everyone makes it out of the climax city siege alive, and those that do arent always in one piece. It gives the story weight and narrative stakes
@@Wyncrer thnx for agreeing. I see a lot of books lack this
I feel like Daniel is secretly addicted to tier lists and is trying but failing to quit and keeps relapsing.
I love tier lists
"Y'all got any more of them tier lists??"
Frodo makes a trampolin jump behind Sauron, who grabs him at the neck before Frodo lets go of Sting with one hand and catches it with the other. All while Sauron looks at what he's doing and gets stabbed in the chest and dies. Voilà. Hollywood-level writing.
Hmmm, that might just be something familiar. It's a bit chilly out there, isn't it?
@@elu9780 Don't worry. It'll be hot again in the morning.
Wow, the well earned shade
actually, instead of Frodo, make some other character with little investment in Sauron's demise kill him.
@@Isaac-rp8ny You're right. Tom Bombadil gets the job done.
Here's something I don't think Daniel really touched on enough:
Other goals. Your character's goal doesn't necessarily need to be, "BTFO this mofo!"
It could simply be something like, "SURVIVE!" Especially if they're two tiers apart. Just survive long enough for help to arrive (of course, you'll need to set up that help is coming before the fight).
In Ender's Game, there's at least one instance where, instead of incapacitating all of his opponents, Ender gets one of his soldiers through the enemy's gate, which is the other win condition in that scenario.
P.S. I feel like people misuse and overuse the term 'plot armour' a lot.
Plot armour is when your character survives for no other reason than because the plot requires it.
If there's an in-universe explanation, it ain't plot armour.
absolutely agree, goal should not always be fight, its a lot more interesting when, like in The Hobbit, the goal was to just survive the massive Dragon, not actually kill it
Thaks for bringing this major point indeed.
Absolutely!
I recently read a book where the protagonist had a crippled leg. And that's exactly what he had to do in fights. Just last long enough for help to arrive.
@@slowlyred2082 not by any chance Glotka ?
@@izarscharf7845 no it was Lucian Negru from Miserere.
But I do love Glotka 👌
Ah, see, you forget the literary secret known as “you underestimate my power”
ah, the anime approach!
@@DanielGreeneReviews "This isn't even my final form!"
Works every time :D
"...you hurt my friends"
Fights in real life are scary since even a pro can lose to a beginner if they make one simple mistake. It takes one missed swing, one slight slip up and the fight is over. This is how I write my fights. Granted if there is a magic fight, the rules tend to be different but in physical fights you just have to establish that your beginner fighter tripped them up or changed the environment enough to change the fight and that one simple mistake costed everything. You also have to consider what state of mind the characters are. If someone is on a rampage versus calm and collected, or if one of them had just lost a friend, it's going to effect how they fight. Its about build up and pay off. Establish that either of the characters you want to fight could lose and so that when one wins over the other it had a good reason for happening.
Magic fights usually should be done by either the characters exploiting the rules of the magic system or have it be a battle of wills and psychology.
I'll keep this in my notes, if you don't mind
A beginner vs Expert scenario is most dangerous for the expert at the start or in the "feeling out period of the fight". This is where just pure aggression or energy can be used against the expert. I've heard of cases where fencing masters lost duels to amateurs simply because of how aggressive the amateur started. As the fight goes on however, the expert really begins to shine and it's essential all over for the amateur.
@@danialzaman1438 That's true as well. It's about the mindset as well. Mind games are important as well. Granted mind games are usually more of a thing during matches with rules or a fight that is taking longer than usual.
@chinese bot I'm not a swordsman either, it is just something I heard from I think a scholagladiatoria video (can't remember exactly). I think the difference is though that an inexperiance fighter is most likely not gonna be able produce enough power to hurt you but even a stab with poor technique is going to be potentially fatal. This is why most experianced swordsman are going to be defensive as even one mistake is going to be deadly.
I think the best fighting equivalent is if you had to fight an inexperienced fighter who was somehow able to produce Mike Tyson levels of power. It doesn't mean he will win but him just being aggressive raises the stakes much higher.
Good tip. I'll use this train of thought for my fight scenes, both physical, magical or both.
SPOILER ALERT for The Rage of Dragons 🐉... I love when a character's handicap becomes their strength. In The Rage of Dragons, Tau's right hand becomes relatively disabled so he starts training with his left. After numerous bouts of training, humiliating loses, and hard fought victories he becomes even better than he would've been with his original fighting hand. When he finally confronts his father's killer in the arena, who would've almost certainly outclassed him in any other circumstance, his opponent makes a mistake by wrongly predicting which hand he'd strike with and it turns the tide of the entire fight from there. I love how an author is able to use something like that to BELIEVABLY turn the tide in a highly anticipated fight scene 🗡
The Rage of Dragons is so fucking awesome, it needs so much love i try to get all my friends to read it xD 😂
Nice one but it wouldn't work in all situations. Using your left hand is an advantage, but using two is a much greater one (though you can still strap a shield to your arm.)
Personnaly i recall a book where one of the character is paraplegic. At one moment he manage to grapple the main vilain by luring him. And because relying so much on his arms actually made him very strong, he's apple to hold him firmly as they plunge into a river and drown.
@@benjaminthibieroz4155 spoiler for the book but he does end up using both hands at one point and he fucking wrecks everything its soo satisfying, i think i might reread the book now bc god damn is the character arc for The Rage of dragons satisfying
@@izarscharf7845 reading it now and it really is a damn satisfying power creep
Question. I’m looking for a High Fantasy series with both religious/spiritual and psychological themes. What are some really good recommendations?
This upload speed is scaring me. Don't burn out Daniel!
Don't bur out, but a burn out video could be very useful! You could team up with others and just talk about times you've all burned out and how to avoid it. Maybe even how it helped (even if it was in small ways)
Hey champ. Thank you for uploading so often for us. I'm big fan of you, keep going ! :)
Cute
Daniel: I wanna dial down on the tier lists.
Also Daniel: look at this TIER LIST, LOOK AT IT, ITS AMAZING!
Morgoth vs Fingolfin is probably one of the best fight scenes with characters of different tiers.
It has a back and forth that's enthralling and it ends in a realistic manner.
I agree the power of both characters is well balanced despite the differences
King in "One Punch Man" has a plot armor. He's power was described by fans as luck and charisma cause' everytime someone wants to kill him he talks it off and run away when someone else destroy the villain.
In a short story I wrote, the primary character knows that he cannot win in a fight against 20ish guys all at once. What he ends up doing is that he actually retreats into a narrow hallway so that he could take on these mooks two or three at a time, which he absolutely can do. Environmental factors are really cool to do when done properly, instead of "Rocks fall, Chester dies".
I love the way Vin thinks through her fights in mistborn. She quiet frequently wins her fights against people who are theoretically a level above her because she works out a clever way of utilising the magic during the fight that is set up separately earlier and it is always very satisfying
Honestly vin is the main reason I gave up on mistborn. She's such a typical edgy ya character and so unlikeable and I'm finding it so boring to get through cos of her. Im gonna try a give it another chance but I swear if I see another "vin frowned" I'm gonna rip my head off.
Anirudh how should someone with Vins background behave? Personally I think characters with “tragic backstories” that act like nothing happened are far more annoying and immersion breaking. She’s hardly the way she is for no reason.
Each to their own though, but while Vin grows she never stops being herself. So if you are sensitive to that kind of character she probably doesn’t change enough for you.
This one I am sharing with y'all on behalf of my medical professional mother: don't have your guy get punched in the face unless you intend for him/her to have a broken or dislocated jaw, broken nose, severely damaged vision, concussion, and/or missing teeth. Unexpected hits to the torso can result in organ ruptures, internal bleeding punctured lung, broken ribs...my point is, after seeing the actual results of real bar fights in the ER, she never finds fights in movies very believable.
If your character is going to walk away from a fight with minimal damage, make sure they are armored, super powered, or they are good at blocking and dodging hits. Even I, a not physically strong, not well trained cis female human, can palm strike through two inches of wood. That's easily enough force to break a jaw or nose if I landed the hit.
tl;dr: make the consequences of your fight believable within the limits and skills of your characters and your world. Fighting seriously injures people.
You should review the bartimaeus trilogy, everyone that I have seen talking about it has liked it, but there aren't that many who have. I definitely think that this series deserves more attention
Approved!
I loved when I was a kid reading it and I'm afraid to read it again because I don't want to ruin my memories of the story. Would you say I can read it again safely?
@@chillmann2433 I must admit that it has been a while since I read it, but I remember elements such as worldbuilding and character arcs as being very good
@@emilormasenvallersnes4016 I feel like I remember it well too. The grow of the main character and this whole arc with the rebels and this girl.
Okay as I think about it I will start reading it again :D
Did you enjoy de prequel "the ring of salomo"?
@@chillmann2433 not really, but I tend to dislike prequels
Discovered you a little over a month ago. I used to love reading when I was younger, and sort of fell out of it while in high school when they made it an obligation. Recently I've been reading as an effort to help dealing with anxiety, and your videos have helped keep me motivated to continue reading. Additionally, you have also given me methods to cope with anxiety and stress, as I am starting a journal after hearing you say it really helps. Appreciate you dude, you clearly deserve more recognition
Do we have tierlist of most believable moments in which Daniel claimed to cut down on tierlists in the future? :P
Hey, you mentioned your book and I thought I'd bring up something that happened to me. I was in between novels after finishing the first Gentleman Bastards book and really just had an itch for an interesting world. I realized I wanted to read about those sorcerers who create radiation every time they use magic, I absolutely just wanted to find that story and read it. It took me a few days to realize that it was your unpublished world I had thought of. So you did it, you've gotten my attention real good
I love the fact that you have a tierlist for your own story so much :D One thing I love in a book is when authors take the time to set up how strong characters are relative to each other, and to make it payoff in the fights. Besides what happens in the fight, building up to it and establishing power levels is super important to a story imo.
Thank you Daniel, this is a fantastic framework for writing characters regarding different levels of power.
I can't wait to read whatever narrative you come up with, im sure you will positively influence future of fantasy and im so excited to see that happen.
Woah, I'm early. I ran out of comments to read whilst watching the video.
lol same name
Joe Abercrombie -The Heroes is an amazing account of a 3 day battle that had me glued from page 1.
Gotta check that one out
Especially the first battle for the hill where it's just a back and forth of view points... you know what I'm talking about...
I love the tier lists and watching Daniel try to fight this addiction
Such great advice that came at a great time for me haha
Hey, man. Just wanted to take the time to honestly thank you for your videos. My wife and daughter are across the country, and my daughter was just in the hospital. she’ll be alright, but watching your videos and reading what you suggest has helped me manage this crazy time. Thank you :)
I liked this video. I think it would be fun to see you go through a bunch of examples of books (or movies) that have fights of vary-ing differences in power level, and to talk about why some work (and why some don't work as well, if you have examples there too). Tough ask without too much spoilery stuff though.
I love how much thought clearly goes into your videos. They're so interesting and I feel like not many people would think of making them. Anyways, who doesn't love a good tier list. 👍🏻
Something I like to see is very weak or unskilled vs weak/unskilled - E’s and F’s vs E’s and F’s.
I was working on a fight in my scene and researching. Daniel came in clutch!
As a writer who writes a lot of action, this video was really helpful. I just realized this is something I always subconsciously did, but hearing you talk about it is definitely gonna help me be more methodical, and I guess I'm gonna create this list for my characters too. Excellent advice.
Environmental factors I remember being a huge part of the Redwall series' fights. Something that really set these apart was that it was never random and almost always tactically used by the fighters.
I don't know why writers don't make their characters run away when things get too tough.
Cause a terrible message to send to the reader. Just run away from your problems if things get too difficult, I mean that’s not exactly inspiring
@@brendan9868 Knowing when to quit is a valuable message, especially in a life or death situation.
Great Teacher but if it’s something important you can’t just quit regardless of how hard things get. Like do you want Frodo to just fuck off and stop trying to destroy the ring because it’s “too hard”
@@brendan9868 Frodo and the squad spent most of the first book running from ring wraiths and orcs. Frodo's pov is mostly a stealth mission so fighting is kept to a minimal.
@@brendan9868 writers aren't your parents. It's not their job to teach you. They're there to tell you a story. The psychological stories that can be told with characters not being able to face the enemy and the shame of running are interesting.
I personally thought the Harry potter fight felt super anti-climactic because there was so much build up but Voldemort just had his spell bounce off. It totally made sense in the story but Voldemort already had his spell bounce off in the past, so it felt a bit off.
On book 4 of WoT and loving it Daniel. Can't wait for this video, your awesome.
I think fights between charcters that are far part in power can be great, but it is really hard to make it satisfing. Resently I read a story where the main character had only the ability to travel back in time through death but besides that he had almost nothing. The antagonist could rip out tree from the ground and throw horses around with ease. To win the main charcter relied on his knowledge about the guy and his allies which could use magic to weaken him. His allies where defeated but he knew the antagonist was to kindhearted and used that against him since the guy was holding back. When the two faced of the main character sacrificed what little magic he could do forever so the could just get this (already beaten up) guy down to his level with the help of another ally and won the following one vs. one fist fight just barely.
I think this was an awesome fight. It is just hard for an author to bridge a big power gab without making it meaningless or cheap.
Great Video. I really like the points you make. What i personally also find to be very interesting, are fights, were the powers are not on the same level and you are supposed to route for the stronger one. Which then either ends in a beatdown or a battle with higher stakes, which is very hard to do right.
Daniel: (...) It's easy to write Frodo stabbing Sauron in the chest (...)
GOT fans: I see what You did here and it hurts :(
True. Probably the worst example of E going against S ever.
@Alex Feak She logically is as far as combat is concerned. Talking about the show, she has merely 3 months of training in a combat style that is uneffective in most combat situations of this world, all while being a female teenager. So E it is.
@Alex Feak That's the problem. What we see of her fighting abilities in the show (fighting wights and duelling with Brienne) is totally absurd and undeserved. As I said, she has few training and uses a useless style (smallsword. Her training in staff/double spear is even shorter).
Brienne was trained like a knight since her childhood and has been through numerous fights, including to the death. We're talking about a woman that has manly size and strength along with 20 years of practice at least.
So do you really think Arya would jump to her level in a few weeks?
Also, her gaining shapeshifting abilities is another undeserved absurd gift. I consider that Arya escaped all form of logic after S6 E8.
If she was to be portrayed in a logical way, most of the soldiers in Westeros would beat her in a duel. I usually consider a trained soldier in gear to be on C tier, so D for Arya may be more accurate. But no way above.
They arbitrarly decided Arya would be invincible and win the glory over far more best suited characters, purely for fan-service reason. I loved Arya until the end of season 6. After that, she fall to Rey's level of bullshit.
One way of having a low tier character take down a really high tier character is to set up a sort of debilitating weakness, a fatal flaw of some sort. This can come off really cheap, but it works pretty well in Steelheart by Brandon Sanderson.
Brandon is good at nailing these kind of things because of how good he is at foreshadowing.
Stealheart was prettyy trash tbh. Super cringey.
Luke vs Deathstar
Question. I’m looking for a High Fantasy series with both religious/spiritual and psychological themes. What are some really good recommendations?
@@ANT96-x8d Dune saga.
Yes it's sci-fi but it's also an epic fantasy and contains all of what you're looking for
Ronald Weasley could destroy Luke Skywalker in a fight.
"Expelliarmus!"
"Oh no! I no longer have a lightsaber!"
Expelliarmus is not a particularly usefull spells in this situation. I do however agree that Ron could end the fight in a single spell for example with stupify.
Then again the character rankings in this video are wildly inconsisten anyways.
@@parsifal7300 I think that most of it would just come down to the willingness to fight, and Luke certainly has him bested there. Luke doesn't mind a little indiscriminate killing. Ron has never killed anyone before.
I don’t think you understand how strong Luke is in the books or comics. I’m talking space Jesus, control black hole, faster than the eye can see by far strong. Ron is nowhere near that level.
@@xaviercopeland2789 I don't believe in the comics as cannon. I am only speaking in regards to the originals and (unfortunately) the prequels.
@@oliverh.1694 But with the force you essentially have precognition that allows you to block projectiles. Maybe you can't block a spell with a lightsaber, but I think it's reasonable that you could dodge it.
For me, everything is context with how believable a fight is. I have read some incredibly overpowered fights that I absolutely did not mind because it suited the context so well. From handicaps, to how skill is applied, the stakes involved, everything depends on the context enhancing whatever writing technique you choose to illustrate the fight. If the fight is not a duel, that also adds a lot of factors that you can use. I think whatever you do, consistency of style is important, because there is some value in the understanding you build with your readers, to stir anticipation as they attune to it. I think Robert Jordan's sword forms is a pretty good example, in that way.
I don't use any kind of structured power chart or anything when I write, though obviously there is still some kind of mental hierarchy centered around most key characters and their traits. When there is an obvious difference in two characters facing off, I think depending on how you want it to go, make use of established rules within your world rather than chance if you can, because it easily becomes such that you as a reader pause to think "The string of luck to achieve this..." or "Why is x fumbling so much in this fight" which can be fine once in a while, but if it happens constantly...
I think for achilles heels planted a really common one is arrogance which is fun to write but also a little tired in my opinion, at least when it is only found in the antagonist. Still, it has its place! I think you can use most anything for this, although I must say personally my least favourite is like a fated weakess to a certain weapon or something like that, as it locks my writing in so much if I don't build other factors on top, but that's merely preference. I personally enjoy writing each character with (hopefully) believable flaws that can be exploited, but... and I guess it ties to the above, they don't strictly have to be, it's just a possibility.
Anyway... that's me rambling, I'll end it there. :)
I love videos like these! Its nice to see people addressing on how to make things FEEL better for the audience.
This was a great dive into technical aspects, do you have any more ideas like this? I’d love to hear your opinion on writing in the future
I don't know about Frodo, but Gollum... I could totally see that Junkie finding a way to shove a broken bottle into Sauron's eye, somehow.
Andddd now I wanna see Geralt and Aragorn fight.
I read the Iliad once a year and every time the fight between Hektor & Achilles has my heart in my mouth.
The anime Yu Yu Hakusho does this well at one point.
Characters in the show are *literally* put into tier lists: S, A, B, and so on.
The main character is a cocky kid who has leveled up to S tier, the strongest of the strong.
At one point in the show he comes up against a D class character. (asterisk here but it’s unimportant, lol.) The D class fighter beats him by exploiting his overconfidence and uses his unique ability to essentially trap the main character.
Obv he can’t actually hurt him cuz there’s too much of a power gap, but he does subdue him and win the fight.
The writers follow up series(hunter x hunter) is the king of those types of fights. The main characters are literally underpowered vs every major conflict. They either outsmart the opponent or they win at a major cost or even straight up lose. There's even a main op villian that the 2 main characters never fight or even talk to because they aren't anywhere near his level so it's left up to others
Neat video. You can also combine think about combining these tricks. Magic tool and environment combine especially well. I wrote a novel where MC adventured through a dungeon with various environmental factors and eventually gained a measure of control over the place. He then used it for a final showdown, pulling every trick he'd previously solved against the BBEG who was maybe 2 or 1.5 tiers apart.
Dresden does this very well. Harry is often outclassed, but he's smart, has good friends, and sometimes just straight up cheats, and so in the end his victory over more powerful forces feels earned.
I love that about Dresden. Each ally serves as another weapon in Dresden's arsenal, along with things like his staff and blasting rod. Then the author keeps things interesting by mixing and matching allies and weapons in each book to keep the fights interesting. And then there's Ghost Story.
Think your comparison with Frodo and Sauron is spot on. Not only would a fight between the Frodo and Sauron never work because of the power difference but the actual scuffle between Frodo and Sam and Gollum is kind of perfect anyway, maybe aside from the fact Gollum stumbles to his death.
By the time they fight; all three are exhausted, malnourished and dehydrated. There's a personal history between the three that wouldn't exist between the hobbits and Sauron which adds a layer to the fight that Frodo Sauron wouldnt have.
Ultimately, the fight itself is exactly what it should be; scrappy and desperate. Both Gollum and Frodo are under the rings total control by this point and want nothing more than to claim it for their own.
Gollum is gangly and dirty in his approach to fighting while Frodo is just a hobbit. Neither are seasoned warriors at their peak utilising every bit of their experience and talent in combat. They're simply desperate beings in a desperate unorthodox scuffle. Tolkien nailed their standoff.
I literally just watched hello future me's video and happened to find this video immediately afterward.
Immediately thought about that hello future me when saw this upload. Still really intereste in your imput
3 minutes in, my official prediction is that daniel uses Rand to represent S tier.
Edit: AWWWW, it's voldi
Is that a Bob the Skull back there? ; )
Whats that from I watched a Skyrim lets play years again and he called his skeleton bob and never explained why
@@vallgron Dresdon Files
Dresden*
Good stuff. Thanks for sharing your perspective, I’ve saved the video for future viewing
That blip in the audio at 14:55 scared the crap out of me
Great points!
I also enjoy seeing your ever growing list of Patreons!
Gotta love this channel and its mix of amazing quantity and quality
"oops! I let go of the cube!" "You were too tricky for your own good, Thanos!"
From a film perspective Harry Potter has weak fights. The best fight is Dumbledore vs Voldemort in Phoenix, it's spectacular to look at, has a real back and forth where it's not clear who has the upper hand, they use multiple incredible spells; a flaming basilisk, fire wave, water sphere, shadow magic, a storm of glass turned back to sand. It feels like master wizards battling and they don't just SPAM THE SAME COMBO. Then you have the emotional pay off with Harry and Voldemorts internal confrontation.
.
Meanwhile, in Hallows they just do red vs green while glaring at each other and grunting. Then Harry's red beats Voldys green because his wand didn't like him... LMAO. Maybe it was made in china all along. Their fight in Goblet of Fire was passable because it was only their introduction, a spar. But at this point in the story, there should be something more dynamic and awesome. I know, it's better in the books, it always is.
Re: the final fight, HISHE paraphrased it quite well: "I'm going to kill you, Harry Potter! I'm pointing my wand as hard as I can!"
One of my favourite fight scenes in literature is Locke Lamora vs Capa Razza because of Locke's "I've had enough of this shit" attitude at the start giving him more of an edge until Razza ltierally says "you're not very good at this, are you?" and then Locke has to give up on bluffing and resort to outsmarting him. Brilliantly written fight between a weak character and a very strong proficient swordsman
There's a reason Winston Churchill doesn't actually fight Hitler face to face.
Winston Churchill was a badass though with lots of experience. So realistically, he would probably win a fight against Hitler.
Solo Leveling (korean webtoon/novel) uses thanos snap. It was very effectiv! The first OP character were the fights, character building, etc. stays fine throughout the story.
My personnal list before watching:
1) Regular swords do not cut through metal. REGULAR SWORDS DO NOT CUT THROUGH METAL FOR F**** SAKE! (and they don't magically "thrust in the gap" either just because the character needs it.)
1.5 If in position, an experienced warrior will pick the weapon most suited for the situation. In battle, it's almost never the sword.
2) Having superhuman feats is no excuse to make flashy stupid move. A warrior will always use the best ways to win, meaning usual technique (though he can toy if he knows the adversary is no match). Usually, the more flashy a move, the less useful it is in combat.
3) Training and experience are more important than everything and make a huge difference. A peasant defeating a trained and equipped soldier in a fair duel is bullshit.
4) Training to fight takes time. Years. Many years.
5) There are a lot of different ways to fight. If a character never trained the proper techniques for a certain type of oponent, he would be screwed.
6) ARMOR DOES NOT MAKE YOU SLOW OR CLUMSY, but it protects you a lot. Armor is a gamechanger and bypassing it is hard.
6.5. Boobs armor is stupid and not needed. Bikini armor is useless.
7) Bows require a lot of strength, can't be drawed for more than a bunch of seconds and will not pierce plate.
8) Having two guys keeping pushing their swords toward each other is bullshit. There a lot of effective move they can do in that position, which make it very risky.
9) IF YOU FIGHT AN ARMED MAN WITH YOU BARE HAND YOU DIE! (unless you have some supernatural abilities. If not, ou die. No need to argue, you die.)
10) Injuries hurt. Injuries make you weak. Injuries can kill you even after the fight. injuries aren't just for generic characters.
11) Fights are disgusting. People bleed, lose their limbs, scream in pein, shiver in terror, piss themselves and beg for their lives. Sanitize and edulcorate fight is a bad thing to do.
12) If magic exist and is spread, magic influence non-magic-users fighters: what equipments, tactics, techniques and training are useful to fight magic-users?
That's my first brainstorming. Let's watch now:
So turns it's about justifying that very juicy situation: how do I win against someone stronger than I am? Hum...
I think:
1) Don't make a huge gap. If characters are too much apart, you may make it believable, but it would probably feel unearned and definitely won't be a fight. Unless you suddenly nerf the stronger guy, wich is the worst thing to do.
2) Technique. Every one has a weakness in his style. No one is good at everything. A thai boxer may destroy a jujitsu praticionner with punches, but if this one take the boxer to the ground, the boxer is screwed. Same goes with different weapons, tactics, magic style...Ask yourself what are the strong points of the strongest guy, if a counter exists, and if it could apply. Needless to say that the weaker guy needs to be trained to that counter, and that the stronger one would be aware of his weakness as well.
3) Environnment. You're nimble? Fight you ennemy on a slippery surface. You can't smell? Bring you ennemy into a filthy place full of pestilence. You're very endurent to cold weather? Use that difference against your ennemy. Environnments (terrain, sensations, place,...) can play a huge part. Establish the weaker character as comfortable (or at least more comfortable) in it, and purposely trap the stronger one in it.
My personnal favorite: SPOLIER ALERT (the witcher) !!!! : Ciri using ice skates to fight her hunters in the Witcher book 6 in a middle of a frozen lake.
4) Psychology. (I do not mean the surge of will or power of friendship, this is motivation, not competence, and a tired trope). Have the stronger character having a weak point: arrogance, overconfidence, phobia, sensitivity,... build it up, have the weaker character know of it and make him exploit it.
5) Previous weakening. The stronger character may have make a lot of effort before the fight, lack rest, gets drunk or intoxicated...The more involved his adversary in this the better, or sett it off properly if it's a personnal flaw.
6) Equipment. Have a common soldier with a spear or sword fight the world champion in boxing just using his bare hands...the soldier is likely to win. Have an exeptionnal swordman without an armor fight a moderately good one with mail...now they're closely matched. You got the point. Just make it a clever use instead of the mac-guffin suddenly playing his part.
7) Sneakery and suprise. May not be a fight. But just inflicting a severe wound will close the gap.
FORBIDDEN: monologue. A character refusing ot resort to "dirty and dsihonourable tricks" (except if you want to make a satire out of it).
On a personnal level from my second novel:
My protagonist had to fight in the arena a warrior that previously enslaved and traumatized her. She was trained (5 years of intense swordfighting), but he was stronger and more experienced. So it was unbalanced, but I resolved it these ways:
- The guy was (obviously) very confident in his ability to subjugate her, but had his own insecurities. So he fought a bunch of others guys before and had a drink. Nothing serious, but it already tired him a little bit.
- In a previous chapter, I established my protagonist' ability to quickly adapt and create solution on the run as she fight, something she had been intensely trained for years. As her ennemy is using a longsword, she switched to a rapier and dagger style, which has deadly and deceptive moves against it.
- On the same note, she purposely exploit his desire to dominate her by willingly jumping a bit below him in a slope. He's trapped because he has the impression to dominate...except that having the high ground in a sword fight is actually a severe disadvantage, which she immediatly use to wound his leg.
- Consequently, the guy start to lose his temper. Being in a situation he never faced as an elite privileged warrior make him quite unable to adapt.
- Rest is more tied to her background and other disciplines she trained in, which gave her the physical advantage in the situation. For example: she used to be an excellent climber and so catch the blade of this sword once it's blocked and manage to hold it, creating an opening to strike him one more time.
All of this to say that pure strenght and skill do not make everything. The context of the fight will have an huge influence, and whoever master the context gain advantage.
Remember that time when Ron Wesley beat Luke Skywalker in a duel because Luke had diarrheia? Crazy times.
Im right in the middle of writing the climax for my novel and this is perfect to compare with what Im doing for my fights. Good timing Dan!
Environmental factors effecting the fight should be the most natural thing to do. After all, we know any epic fight scene is required to involve at least two of the following:
- a raging storm
- lava
- over 10 m freefall
- 30 acres of free room for stuff and/or characters fly
- explosions
- Clint Eastwood
Interesting ! I can only see 2 ways to solve the frodo vs sauron situation: 1) to attack a weak spot (such as a magic ring, or use kryptonite) or 2) destroy the evil being on a psychological level to make it give up the fight or join the heroes (kind of like luke vs vader and palpatine).
Pratchett's "Sourcery" ends with a pretty solid example of the huge disparity fight, can't really think of anywhere else I've seen it pulled off satisfyingly.
Percy Jackson the lightning theif
Percy fights a god and wins, and it’s believable because he is in the ocean and the god wasn’t going full force. Idk I just really liked that fight
Also he wins by getting exactly one hit. Haven't read the book in a while but I'm pretty sure Ares just peaces out after that
I'm just imagining putting Dresden vs his enemies on the tier list- the power discrepancies and Butcher still pulls it off
I think the only "man VS god" battle/conflict that has the good guys winning and having it feel satisfying os during the Gravity Falls "Weirdmaggedon" when Bill Cypher is tricked by Stanley and Stanford Pines.
Brandon's fight are literally the most cinematic I've seen, along with Derek Landy's Skulduggery Pleasant.
Thanks Daniel, you put a few things in perspective that I didn't really stop to think about before, good stuff.
As a bit of feedback, I think this format of video would do really well if you showed an example, it is alright if you want to keep it spoiler free but since you're taking on writing, you can always make a example of what you're commenting about on your own.
can't wait to read what you're working on.
Thank you for making this video! It was really informative and helpful.
Made me think of that scene In red Seas Under Red Skies when Locke kills all those dudes by dropping a wine barrel on them and everyone thinks he’s a badass but he’s actually just extremely lucky
Wait Robert Jordan wrote plot armor into the story? What a legend.
Environment really does matter, but more importantly, environmental awareness can make or break a fight.
One thing I've noticed when teaching new players in my larp group is that there is an insane amount of tunnel vision while fighting. You're putting all your focus on the warrior in front of you that you don't notice you're about to trip over an exposed root. Some players take advantage of the tunnel vision issue. I've seen a players force others into accidentally back into trees or sometimes run into their own teammates.
That would be a nice and nasty trick for a villain to pull, only for the hero to do the same thing to them later in the book.
I really liked what you said about (even if the character survives) there being consequences. Joe Abercrombie and George RR Martin are not afraid to dismember and brutalise characters. It means that even when I know they’re going to survive, I’m still worried because I want to know what scars they will have to carry. It gives a cost for characters who aren’t prepared for the fight.
Anybody that wants a true masterclass in building up stakes and hype and story for fight scenes should seriously consider studying pro wrestling. Week after week after week of nothing but establishing combatants, stakes, abilities, grudges and telling stories through the medium of two or more people having a fight. It's got everything
This comment is Werner Herzog approved :)
ruclips.net/video/7Kl2dFGshro/видео.html
@@poporopo913 haha, never a bad thing!
Accurate AS ALL HECK!
A good example of where this type of narrative logic was thrown out the window was with SW The Force Awakens, when Rey, who hasn't trained a DAY, is able to match Kylo and even beat him fairly easily. Even if she's meant to be a SpEcIaL, it feels cheap, and could have been done in a far better way. For example, if Kylo was toying with Rey and Fin, underestimating them etc, and they managed to just barely survive, or even if Rey just managed to pull off a haymaker after getting molly-whopped, that would've made more narrative sense. But no, he was going FULL BLAST, and ray was able to easily beat him because she's a SpEcIaL FeMaLe HeRo who can do no wrong!... unlike, oh, I don't know, Sarah Connor, Ellen Ripley, Sidney from Scream, Trinity, The Bride from Kill Bill, Furiosa, Wonder Woman, and all the other real female action heroes who go through struggle and adversity, and therefore their triumph is more meaningful, realistic, and satisfying.
There's a reason Luke fought Vader for the first time in Empire and not in New Hope. And even then he lost.
I agree so much. Many try to justify it by saying that Kylo was injured and shaken with emotions (having just killed his father). But even then he would have destroyed her. There's no way this fight was satisfying as a lightsaber duel. Toying and arrogance would have been just as cheap to me.
Because it's indeed a D vs A (giving Kylo advantage because lightsaber) without a proper build-up. Having Rey and Finn just trying to survive and escape (while probably suffer anyway) would have make much more sense, make them feel more insecure about future fight and establish Kylo as intimidating.
But instead let's have the protagonist easily crush the main antagonist at one third of the story. What could go wrong?
Seconded. One of the things I liked about Star Wars in terms of it's "chosen ones", Luke and Anakin (I will not acknowledge Rey) is while they may have been special, or chosen, or whatever, they still had to work/train/get help to make use of that.
Luke's a good pilot? Nope, Vader still crushes his squadron mercilessly till Han arrives. He's a newly trained Jedi? Vader beats his ass and makes him cry. More training, exceptional circumstances, then he pulls a win. It feels earned.
Anakin is "the chosen one"? Dooku lops off his arm and only doesn't kill him cause Yoda scares him off. It takes him level grinding through a war and training before he can take him in the next move.
I like your Teir-List explanation. When I've been thinking about fights that occurred in things I've watched or I'm planning to put into my stories I often try to rationalise out-comes through a similar logic, maybe it's because I played so much Top-Trumps as a kid.
But if you ever come back to this topic, would you mind expanding on the follwoign topics?
-Fights where one character is just getting trashed. The most obvious reason for having this happen is for the character who gets trashed to be buying time for their comrades. It's not about the fight but the heroism of the sacrifice. While a slightly different scenario, I think of the scene in Deathly Hallows where Nevil gets tortured by Voldermort towards the end, not really a fight but I feel it is relevant.
-Fights where where a character is introduced to the tier list. This character might be one we tend not to think of as a combatant of they may only have been introduced to the narrative a few pages ago (or they even just jumped out of the shadows and attack). How can this be done without feeling like a 'nobody' character is just being rammed into the A tier becuase otherwise they couldn't challenge the hero and the story would be boring.
-Populating your tier list. A poor distribution of characters on the good and bad side can ruin the stakes. I'm going to specifically mention the T.V show Transformers Prime here. It seemed like the main cast of hero autobots were all As and Ss, and only seemed to be their because they'd lose if they weren't and one of the main antagonists (Starscream), came across as suspisciously low when one considers his place as the second in command for the villains.
The second point, I'm not sure i could think of a really good example of where this was executed well or badly. But I'll make myself unpopular by saying this was done badly near the beginning of the Way of Kings. Szeth, the assassin, seems to be in the S tier, principally because if he wasn't then the assassination sequence wouldn't be so spectacular. Four Hundred or so pages later (byt the end of part one), I still don't understand why he is so much stronger than every character in the narrative, (I mean, why can nobody else surge-bind? And why weren't the castle defences at-all prepared for a surge-binder).
Regarding plot armor (and chosen ones). We don’t write books about people who die right away and play no role. Of course it can be done ad absurdum.
Your mention of how hard the S-tier antagonist vs F-tier protagonist is to write gives me a very fun setting idea
Dresden 1 Stormfront had a great final showdown because the bad guy ( forgot his name) was new to magic but fully healthy, whereas Harry was fatigued and injured and barely able to stand, but he had all the know-how which gave him the edge. Using a broom to magically sweep away golem-like scorpions? Freaking Genius!!
5:19 that example is also, without spoiling anything, played for poetic irony considering the object involved, what it represents, who it kills, and how it kills them. It's quite brilliant, actually. In fact, again without spoiling anything, considering the status of the characters, the words spoken, and other related factors, it's a far better resolution than a straightforward defeat would've been. Also, Abercrombie is so diverse with his method of killing characters, especially in this particular book Daniel's referring to, it's a cool, unexpected turn. Plus, it happens after a significant struggle, and is played for effect and remarked on by the characters involved.
Dang you are uploading a lot now I love it
But don't burn out pls take a break if you need to
Geralt
would kick Luke’s ass
Luke would rip Geralts head off with the Force.
Awesome video.
I immediately thought of Bilbo and Smaug, but then I remembered Bilbo done F*^%ed that up.
6:07 But Sauron literally dies because Gollum trips and falls in the lavas of Mount Doom
A level of disconnect that is very believable and doesn't bother the readers. If Sauron himself did though... well that sh*t would be hilarious.
One theory I heard was that because Gollum was shown mercy and spared through the story, it was mercy that led to the destruction of the ring
@@laconsuela69 True. But funny enough, that's precisely the obsession of Gollum for the ring that make him do everything to take it back and struggle with Frodo. In the book, he even fall by accident because of how joyful he his. If the ring hadn't seduced gollum, Frodo would have just run away, fall to the hands of nazguls, and Sauron would have won. So In the end, the most terrible power of the ring (corrupt his possessers) actually bring to his downfall.
Great job on the videos! Honestly you are the RUclipsr I watch the most :)
YOUR TIER LISTS ARE AMAZING MY GUY I LOVE THEM!!!
Something else that didn’t come up in the video, is having power imbalance battles decided with the weaker/lower tier hero having backup. Bunch of b or c tier people defeating an a tier, for example.
I sure hope we get to see more of Daniels Writing
I don't know that focusing on power levels is necessarily the best way to approach a combat scene. That can too easily become a routine of logic and lose the emotions that truly make a combat sequence powerful. I think there are 3 components of a good fight scene:
1. Choreography
How the characters interact with each other and their environment. How is the fight affecting the environment, how is the environment affecting the fight, how are these characters affecting each other?
2. Kinesiology
How each character handles their physical bodies, or how they are moving. How are their physical attributes (strength, training, weapons, etc) affecting their movement? How is the fight affecting their movement?
3. Psychology
How are the characters feeling? What are the stakes of the fight? Why are they fighting? What are they feeling as they fight? How do their emotional states affect the fight and how does the fight affect their emotional states?
Obviously, these three will blend and blur together in the scene. In all three categories, real-life experience can provide a depth...your own experience and that which you have gained from listening to others. Some writers focus more heavily on one component or another, but for me, the stand-out combat scenes are those which have so incorporated all three so that the mechanics of the scene fade into the background. You are there, the characters are there, the fight is raging. Outside reality blurs.
Example: the chapters “Bigwig Stands His Ground” and "The Sky Suspended" in Watership Down. Hands-down my favorite combat scene of any medium. Choreography: Bigwig's environment is both stage and stakes. The environment provides limitations to both characters and both try to make use of it. Kinesiology: both characters' physical attributes shape the fight. The fight is wearing and takes a toll on both. These tolls affect the fight. Physics...is very important in this fight. Psychology: *why* Bigwig is standing his ground is the most important element to him and a gosh-darn victory in and of itself and plays a key role in the final resolution. If this sequence is boiled down to the respective power-levels of the characters, it would lose much of its impact. The details are stage and props, the play is in psychology. Focusing too much on the power levels risks losing sight of the words and emotions which will stick in the hearts of readers long after the details are forgotten or misremembered.
3:11 This is just explaining why all the fights in JoJo work. They do a ton of power and intelligence foreshadowing to clue the viewer/reader in on why x wins a fight against y, even across generations of the main cast.
An excellent video! All great points.
I think underdog winning is a bit overdone in speculative fiction in general. As you say, unless the author takes the time and effort to set it up very well, it can look highly unbelievable as the discrepancy in skill, power and experience gets beyond a certain point, and the weaker character (usually the hero) is supposed to come out on top. And yes, a direct fight between Frodo and Sauron would be absurd, as the former is clearly insanely outclassed.
* As a side note, Sauron would be an S tier character if looking at the Lord of the Rings alone, yes. If you look at the entirety of the Tolkien legendarium, including the Silmarillion, he would be pushed down.
The S tier characters (combat-wise) in that case would be Melkor/Morgoth the first Dark Lord (and Sauron’s master, after Sauron went over from serving Aulë), probably Tulkas the Champion of the Valar and maybe one or two other characters/beings (one or two other Valar as well as Ungoliant come to mind).
And that is provided that you exclude Eru Ilúvatar (= the supreme deity or God if you will). If you include him, even those would be pushed down to A, and Sauron would be pushed down to B.
I would say that tiers are most certainly relative, in that way. In truth, I am not sure you could say discrete tiers actually exist. It is just a continous scale of skill, power and experience. But I guess tiers work as a convenient enough simplification.
Overall, though, great video. As I wrote above, I agree with all your major points, despite my side notes.
Regarding the protagonist overcoming powerful foes, I think something has to be said.
I think that is also important that the subordinates of the main antagonist are powerful forces in their own right (at list some of them). The hero struggles against them, but when he overcomes someone like that, he grows a lot. New powers, esperience etc. Just overall stronger.
I think that this is important because :
1) It's more coherent. When the Hero will fight the final villain (the big boss) he will already be someone of note himself. Maybe the final villain is still much stronger than him. Maybe he will still kick his butt the first time. But It's more believable than someone that literally jumps 10 tiers during the final battle.
2) It places a certain respect on the subordinates as well. Those guys are no joke and can kick your ass. By making them powerful, it also hypes up the main villain, naturally.
But ultimately, the villain does have to at least be perceived to be stronger or there's no stakes in the final fight. Or if they are perceived to be weaker, then the antagonist pulls out some other trick that makes him stronger, or takes away a weapon or ally from the protagonist.
My favorite example of character development to make a big gap bossfight work is Avatar: Aang vs Ozai
Something I enjoy is when there are very subtle clues throughout the story that when pieced together all point towards a later reveal which can then explain why someone who is believed to be a C-Tier character could have somehow overpowered an A-Tier character early in the story. Something where the Author CLEARLY had planned from the very beginning, and as the story progressed perceptive readers may have been able to work out. Especially if it's a multi book journey, and the very first hints were all the way back in book one, and the reveal comes in like book four or five.
A reveal dropped later on to justify an earlier fight where they should have lost but didn't without any indication beforehand is a big red flag for me. No clues? No dice. I will firmly believe that it was pulled out of nowhere to silence attempted criticism at obvious plot armor.
In my books, I'm implementing a DND kind of system. Nothing as complex as the actual RPG, but just a number for strength, intelligence, and dexterity, with modifiers for certain powers and weapons. I haven't gone too far with it just yet, but I hope it can help me eliminate any inconsistencies with, not just fighting abilities, but other aspects of their personality as well.