Especially a retrofit no more connected than a Dodge Duster. Bolt a motor to the transaxle and slap some future batteries on the motor mounts. So close.
Try looking at 20mile phev conversions on the market already. A design challenge is ~500lb extra weight and trunk space occupied for the battery. Not trying to dissuade the idea, but there needs to be some improvements in battery energy density for it to be practical in passenger vehicle applications. (The video mentions this is a commercial vehicle application)
Aperta considered the Elphe motor but decided to use a standard drive instead. Apparently, the motors were not quite ready for total production. But they did mention that they would try the motor again sometime in the future. So, we will not be seeing these motors in production vehicles soon. Nevertheless, if these motors work as promised and are durable, they will be a game-changer.
@@Funktastico I looked into the Emily GT over a year ago, when I first heard about it. I seem to remember MANY sketchy details about the project. Personally IMO, I don't think it will ever come close to seeing the light of day. It's another case of talk is cheap.
From the latest video I heard from Steve Fambro in the interview the motors were not the issue but the fact they needed to design their own inverters for those motors is what caused them to make the change to the Vitesco. The fact they needed to setup their own production (cost, risk, etc.) of their own inverters threatened their delivery timeline.
@@madmotorcyclist In any case, they could not make them work for production. If these motors are going to be used, they need to be production-ready, and that means everything needed to become part of the drive mechanisms must be ready to go. In the Aperta case, you would think something as essential as an inverter would have already been figured into the motors.
Hub motors or Inwheel motors have been around in Europe snd the UK for some years but as yet haven't been adopted by any manufacturer although BMW are experimenting with them. One advantage is if one motor fails it can quickly swapped put for another, important for vans, trucks and taxis as it minimises down time.
@@davidbeppler3032 Same reply as to your other exact same comment. This is not correct, spinning weight (wheels and tires) affects efficiency, non spinning unsprung weight does not affect efficiency at all. It is a problem for the suspensions, but that can be compensated for.
3 месяца назад
The are used on trains and very large earth moving equipment.
Similar to the tried and tested hub motor on an Ebike. The unsprung weight..I did 20K riding on my ebike,no issue.Alot of bumpy trail riding including railway tracks.Then I switched to a mid drive so I could gear my drive with the chain. I liked the simplicity of the hub motor drive in retrospect.
@@JogBird At 6:51 it sure looks like it's rigidly attached to the wheel. So you've got electrical cables and hydraulics, and 35 KG (does that include brake?). I dunno about this.....
Let's go back in time - A stock 2007 Ford Focus was compared with an identical vehicle modified with 66 lb (30 kg) of ballast fitted to each wheel. The weight was distributed between rotating and nonrotating unsprung masses as to broadly replicate Protean Electric’s PD18 (18-in diameter) wheel-hub-motor unit. The project plan included three phases of analysis and testing. Phase 1 focused on modeling of different modifications, including suspension spring, bushing, and damper rates, and different tires and pressures, and their effects on the IWM-equipped vehicle. It was determined that simply fitting a standard Focus ST suspension (an upgrade on the stock base car) would be a good practical solution. In phase 2, the stock vehicle was modified with the Focus ST suspension. This setup included revisions to the front and rear spring rates, dampers, and the rear anti roll bar. In phase 3, the Focus with the modified ST suspension was retested. The process included a subjective vehicle assessment, objective ride and handling tests, on-road shake measurements, and two-post shaker rig measurements. The studies concluded, and the presenters argue, that while the vehicle carrying the greater unsprung mass at each wheel did display perceptible differences compared with the stock vehicle, those differences were minor and can be mitigated using “normal engineering processes within a product development cycle.” By fitting the upgraded ST-level suspension to the car replicating one equipped with Protean PD18 in-wheel motors, the vehicle’s handling and on-center tracking were improved back to reference. Overall, the effort conducted by Protean Electric, Lotus Engineering, and Dunamos may help convince skeptics that the addition of 30 kg of unsprung mass per corner will not adversely impact overall vehicle dynamics and can be addressed fairly easily with cost-effective countermeasures. ev.sae.org/article/9493/
In wheel electric motors (also known as hub motors) have been around since before Tesla, and I, like you, thought they would be an amazing breakthrough in EVs. There are really 2 engineering problems though, one is solvable, one is a question mark. The first is that it adds significant unsprugn weight (which you covered). That isn't a trivial problem to solve, but it is solvable, and has been solved in individual cases. There are several EVs that have had in wheel motors and they are viable (MIEV for one), others have tried and abandoned the idea (I believe Canoo tried and abandoned it, but that is just based on my memory). However the second problem is one of durability. Cars and truck parts have to withstand a lot of vibration, and impact. When the parts are separated from the wheels by a suspension that reduces the impact and vibration on those parts. When you put them in the wheels, they have to be able to withstand a lot more punishment than one that is located past the suspension. It is yet to be determined if that is going to work long term. Sure they will be amazing in a new car, but how much maintenance and repairs will a vehicle with in hub motors require vs. the traditional way is still unknown.
@@golfish8589 I realize that this is more plausible with an electric motor, but it is still a question mark. AFAIK no one has an example of one that has lasted 100K miles, and until we do, it is unknown if it will work out or not. Roads are not perfect flat surfaces, they have potholes, people run over things, there are small variances in the surface that produce a lot of vibration. Even an electric motor could be destroyed shortly in those circumstances. The only production model I know of with this is the Mitsubishi MIEV, which was sold in very limited quantities, and had a very short range. Given this it is unlikely there are many high milage one around to see if it works or not, and I have heard nothing of their long term durability.
@@mikereinhardt1244 I agree with you, until it's PROVEN in the real world it's only a creative idea to be played with. I did not know the I-MiEV used hb's, I'm definitely going to look deeper into them. Two other applications I'm aware of was Workhorse/Lordstown Motors and Verge TS motorcycle, both not producing any real world data. Low speed light e-bikes and e-motos truly proved hb's work in limited applications, but I remain skeptical they'll ever work mainstream for highway usable vehicles.
@@pi.actual Valid points. Those hub motors (all EV motors) are sealed, but over time with that vibration and coming in contact with debris and such that could not last. Like I said, I am not saying it wont work, just that it is yet to be proven to be a durable design.
A new mail delivery vehicle in the US comes to mind. I talk with my postal delivery folks who despise the worn out and smelly vehicles they have to drive. They are constantly in need of repair. Probably every country, on earth could use the same thing.
This gets a big thumbs up from me with "hub motors" or wheel motors as they are sometimes called becoming viable because of new technology. And this design with internal planetary gears as part of the design is certainly interesting. For the naysayers electric bicycles and motorcycles have been using hub motors for many years successfully. 😎🇦🇺👍
I think the question comes down to packaging. If you look at a dual motor Tesla, can the space where the dual motors occupies be better utilized? If the answer is "yes", then hub motors makes sense. If the answer is "no", then is the reduction of unsprung weight more important.
Yeah, about the only place these make sense is for the rear wheels of delivery vans. The e-Sprinter and Brightdrop have rear motors but it seems to elevate the floor a couple inches. But delivery vans are low power, so FWD ones like Rivian's may end up being the default solution.
3:49 - for reference a steel wheel and tire for an 18-wheeler weighs in the range of 150 lbs -175 lbs and those things are everywhere you look. now mind you that's just for a SINGLE assembly, so before we even talk about the massive weight increase of bolting 2 of them together (along with the unsprung weight of a hub, 10 studs, and a super heavy brake drum or disc and caliper, etc) in order to create a set of DUALS.
Maybe somebody should ask Lordstown motors what kind of problem they ran into. Electric motors are pretty reliable. I have a feeling that their will be a lot of reliablility problems when you have the motor bouncing inside a wheel.
@@davidbeppler3032 I don't think unsprung weight affects efficiency at all. The weight you are spinning (i.e. the wheels and tires) affects efficiency. The motors are stationary (rotation wise). In hub or not in hub does not affect efficiency any AFAIK. The Mitsubishi MIEV used these and it got 60-70 miles of range off of a 16kWh battery. These have been used in electric bicycles and motorcycles for a long time and efficiency is not a problem. Unsprung weight is a problem for the suspension, not the efficiency.
This is because of the batteries, not the motors. Wheelchair vans are front-wheel drive. Now if we’re talking all-wheel drive wheelchair vans are, that would be pretty nice!
Commercial vehicle application, all wheels driving/ braking, sub batteries placement semi vans/semi trailers , docking and shuffling and charging line up park
Can these motors outperform Axial flux motors? Those seem to be the next-gen for electric cars. Can you compare Axial Flux motors to what's currently available?
@@douggolde7582 Axial flux motors are not knew, there was an ebike hub motor used brushed axial flux motor with exact same double planetary gear drive was most popular ebike motor in china many moons ago. Bit of a pain to repair though. Older cars used brushed axial motors in the radiator cooling fans for many years......its not new.
Now it’s proven that BeV is the future so only thing that counts for mass market is price. If it cheaper go for it. But if it’s more expensive it will only be a niche market.
Interested in what ratio of torque to hp is possible in the motor/trans unit. For a very light, small vehicle you’d want as small/light a motor/trans unit with closer to even ratio of ft-lbs to hp so you had enough hp for acceleration needs without overkill in torque, yet as LIGHT a unit as possible. In a heavy or hauling/tow vehicle, 3X ft-lbs over hp, yet sufficient hp. Weight less a major concern.
the issue of course is electric motors are not a packaging problem as the axles tend to be outside the confines of the passenger cabin which just happens to be where the battery is placed under. automotive companies are well versed in efficient of that space as is and electric motors and their compactness made the packaging even easier. there simply is no point to in wheel motors for traditional vehicles.
I instinctively don't like the durability of in-wheel motors strictly because of their location. I haven't seen any research on the matter, so pending that, I'll allow that it might be at least be as good as the conventional configuration.
Interesting. Let's get some _real-world_ last-mile/delivery truck stats so we can gauge where these in-wheel motors could/should/woud be deployed. I can see these on *DHL, FedEx, UPS* trucks. A decent price (read _low_ ) would help with wide adoption too. A skateboard would help as well.
How ruggedized is this? Where are the inverters sitting, in hub too (regenerative braking)? Heat dissipation? For commercial trucks, the 75 lbs of unsprung weight per hub is possibly okay, but for civilian usage, it will probably be a bit unwieldy, imagine 400 whp + 300 lbs unsprung. Thanks
The GM Hywire/Sequel hydrogen car projects really came up with the ideal concept... Universal skateboard platforms with detachable bodies... To me that level of plug and play modularity is where we are headed... But with electrics... Hydrogen cars are a dead end for all but the most niche of applications..
Tesla would disagree. GM might agree though. We are seeing a move toward this idea in manufacturing, but they don’t make the most efficient end products, they are just easier to adopt.
Seems to me the problem people are having in the comments isn't actually with IWM's, it's with their strange inclusion of a 2-speed gearbox. Other companies have figured out how to make IWM's much lighter with zero need for the added complexity of a shift-able gearbox.
Any time you increase complexity, I feel there needs to be a valuable, beneficial payback. I'm NOT seeing it here. For highway usable vehicles I don't see this going anywhere, UNTIL someone can develop it and PROVE the concept in real world use.
@@RPRosen-ki2fk IWMs as a general concept absolutely have a place, but typically designs for them don’t involve an entire gearbox, they’re literally motors that often can act as your wheel hub. I’m really failing to see why they think a two speed gearbox is a necessary inclusion here. A standard IWM design eliminates a differential and axle, and usually includes a brake rotor and caliper, as well as eliminates most of the knuckle, suspension can literally bolt to it.
I think most people don't understand what you are talking about here, but you are talking about tweels right? That could make a huge difference as they do some work of the suspension and would reduce the impacts on the motor.
@@mikereinhardt1244 who else, besides Michelin Tweel? The solution is a result of partner with Michelin to draw a line between two sections, tire vs motor volume.
@@philoso377 It would be a good matchup. Tweels do some suspension work in themselves, so it could reduce the stress on a hub motor. It also reduces the weight of the wheels and tires (which reduces unsprung weight. Aptera should partner with them if they are using hub motors.
A lighter weight low power version for 4WD with KIA Delta-Wye motor technology might be better. Ridiculous high power performance expectations are ruining a good idea.
+35kg!!! That’s 77 lbs per wheel! Having 1 motor and reduction gear box and diff in the car is 160lbs. Motors in wheels will never work. High cost, terrible efficiency, major unsprung weight. Bad idea.
Like he said, in a commercial application, northern end of the world. But I agree, the first thing that came to mind is way too much unsprung mass... you would think a single motor centrally with a drive shaft and an open mini diff on each wheel would be best...
They have already worked in many protypes, at least one mass sold (well for an EV) vehicle and in a plethora of electric bicycles and other vehicles (they are even used in huge mining trucks and other heavy industry equipment). The unsprung mass is a problem for for suspensions not efficiency, and that can be compensated for. The Mitsubishi MIEV used in wheel hub motors (2 on the rear wheels), and it was able to get 60-70 miles on a 16kWh battery back in 2017. Electric motors can generate 6hp/lb and inverters are fairly light, and don't have to be attached to the hub motor, in non-hub motors they do that for simplicity and to save weight, I don't think they will be doing that if they commercialize in hub motors on a mass scale. The 35kg they are talking about are for delivery vehicles, that is a small portion of the weight of one of those things. 35kg would produce up to 300hp or maybe even more (per wheel). For a small car you are talking more less than 10 lbs per wheel unless it is very sporty (that would be 200hp ish for the whole car). There was a company that made in wheel hub motors that made a 640BHP AWD mini cooper more than a decade ago. It was a series PHEV, so it didn't have a big battery, but they drove it across the company and made close to 100MPG. This was a prototype just to show off their hub motors, but nothing ever came from it, and I have always wondered why... It is possible, the question is durability since it is unsprung, and that is unknown at this point.
US could compete globally with more innovation like this. Norway auto market has 27 brands of EVs, Australia 31 brands, competition will continue to drive improvements. Tariffs and protectionism just allow obsolete dirty unreliable technologies to hang on a bit longer, does nothing for long-term free market competition or technical leadership.
Host reticent is asking guests for specs in U.S., not metric values - AutoLine hosts are often out of touch/over the top in lauding praise for anything relating to EVs.
Unsprung weight, durability of flexible high voltage power cables, subjecting motors to road shock, all possible negative factors. Tesla type drives far superior.
Wheelmotor. Oh yes, we hear about it for 100+ years. Everything is perfect and brilliant until reality strikes back and says "guys, you forgot about unsprung mass. So you lost. Next please!".
Dont want to burst anyones bubble, but this exact geartrain hub motor design was one of the first popular drives used in chinese ebikes and scooters, many many years ago. It was a brushed axial flux motor ( pre brushless motors became developed, same as used in alot of older car radiator cooling fans) and the exact same dual planetary drive train.Probably millions of them were made, it was extremely popular. This is in no way a new design, its a very old design, I dont know enough about whats going on in china now, but I would imagine there are many different versions of this type of system have been developed for larger vehicles. I have no idea if any are used in larger vehicles, but main point is its not a new design at all.
This will NEVER happen. The environment around the wheel is incredibly harsh, not a good place for an electric motor and its supporting compnents. A half shaft is not a big deal.
This would be better sandwiched between the Transmission, and differential. While I'm older, and don't drift my pickup truck, when it rains, anymore, I want a vehicle that CAN rotate. Maybe none gear heads don't notice the handling difference. At the same time, I've had non gear heads, realize a properly set up vehicle, is more fun for them as well. It's also safer. Heavy un-sprung weight, makes a good vehicle, feel like it's clumping down the road. Clump. clump, clump...like jogging in snow shoes...it's just wrong. Everyone might be surprise, we already know how to build really good vehicles. That are more environmentally friendly, because they were reliable. The car that pollutes the most, is the one that's unreliable. Fishing around to fix flawed assumptions, about what really pollutes, is killing of the industry, and causing huge inflation. We're replacing our once reliable fleet, with wishful ideas, and magical thinking, and it's not working.
just what I don't want. Another 77 lbs of unsprung weight at each wheel. They need to invest in axial flux motors instead of forcing 100 year old technology where it doesn't fit.
The US market is only about 22% of the total world automarket and the other major car markets are all going EV. So if you are fine with the US companies becoming uncompetitive and dieing in the next 10-15 years then go ahead and embrace ICE. We wont even be able to export our ICE cars since the Chinese can outcompoete us on cost on those. So kiss teh US auto industry goodbye if we dont embrace EVs too.
I'll believe it when I see it. John is notoriously gullible to charlatans peddling silly schemes on his shows, like the failed ACHATES engine, remember, John? He should be MUCH more SKEPTICAL and not act like a 5 year old.
John is enthusiastic about automotive engineering & love discovering new companies & concepts. That’s very positive & needed in this slow-moving, conservative automotive industry. If he were gullible, he would invest in them, which he doesn’t.
Your comment is not fair, I have been watching this show for quite a while and it is about information on technologies that are new and innovative but also technologies that are here and now.
This comment is fair and is easily proven if you re-watch the Trevor Milton interview. 5-10 minutes of simple DD would have provided enough skepticism to support questioning all of Milton's claims.
Enjoy your weekend with all your family around you,everyone in Autoline Network, Brilliant information video loved it 👍 WELL-INFORMED,Autoline Network Questions needed answers Questions time Only 3% per cent female Techs in the automotive industry Why are Techs leaving the automotive industry Please interview New Level Auto Keith DeFazio Please interview Oscar Gomez Master Automotive Training Please interview HumbleMechanic 🙏 From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧 ⏰️ 17:29pm the 🌞 is out 🌞
a retrofit kit for older cars to make them phev would prob sell like hotcakes
If I owned a aftermarket brand I would jump on NOW!
Especially a retrofit no more connected than a Dodge Duster. Bolt a motor to the transaxle and slap some future batteries on the motor mounts.
So close.
Try looking at 20mile phev conversions on the market already. A design challenge is ~500lb extra weight and trunk space occupied for the battery.
Not trying to dissuade the idea, but there needs to be some improvements in battery energy density for it to be practical in passenger vehicle applications. (The video mentions this is a commercial vehicle application)
Aperta considered the Elphe motor but decided to use a standard drive instead. Apparently, the motors were not quite ready for total production. But they did mention that they would try the motor again sometime in the future. So, we will not be seeing these motors in production vehicles soon. Nevertheless, if these motors work as promised and are durable, they will be a game-changer.
what about Saab NEVS Emily GT ?
@@Funktastico I looked into the Emily GT over a year ago, when I first heard about it. I seem to remember MANY sketchy details about the project. Personally IMO, I don't think it will ever come close to seeing the light of day. It's another case of talk is cheap.
From the latest video I heard from Steve Fambro in the interview the motors were not the issue but the fact they needed to design their own inverters for those motors is what caused them to make the change to the Vitesco. The fact they needed to setup their own production (cost, risk, etc.) of their own inverters threatened their delivery timeline.
@@madmotorcyclist In any case, they could not make them work for production. If these motors are going to be used, they need to be production-ready, and that means everything needed to become part of the drive mechanisms must be ready to go. In the Aperta case, you would think something as essential as an inverter would have already been figured into the motors.
The problem with Aptera is their motors were too exposed to the elements. With a more conventional car design, it'd be a very different story
Hub motors or Inwheel motors have been around in Europe snd the UK for some years but as yet haven't been adopted by any manufacturer although BMW are experimenting with them. One advantage is if one motor fails it can quickly swapped put for another, important for vans, trucks and taxis as it minimises down time.
Unsprung weight is a killer of efficiency. That is why people buy lighter wheels for muscle cars.
@@davidbeppler3032 Same reply as to your other exact same comment. This is not correct, spinning weight (wheels and tires) affects efficiency, non spinning unsprung weight does not affect efficiency at all. It is a problem for the suspensions, but that can be compensated for.
The are used on trains and very large earth moving equipment.
Kilow's La Bagnole is using them in a quadricycle vehicle
Similar to the tried and tested hub motor on an Ebike. The unsprung weight..I did 20K riding on my ebike,no issue.Alot of bumpy trail riding including railway tracks.Then I switched to a mid drive so I could gear my drive with the chain. I liked the simplicity of the hub motor drive in retrospect.
this isnt a hub motor, the motor stays stationary, it would just be mounted outboard.
@@JogBird At 6:51 it sure looks like it's rigidly attached to the wheel. So you've got electrical cables and hydraulics, and 35 KG (does that include brake?). I dunno about this.....
Let's go back in time -
A stock 2007 Ford Focus was compared with an identical vehicle modified with 66 lb (30 kg) of ballast fitted to each wheel. The weight was distributed between rotating and nonrotating unsprung masses as to broadly replicate Protean Electric’s PD18 (18-in diameter) wheel-hub-motor unit. The project plan included three phases of analysis and testing.
Phase 1 focused on modeling of different modifications, including suspension spring, bushing, and damper rates, and different tires and pressures, and their effects on the IWM-equipped vehicle. It was determined that simply fitting a standard Focus ST suspension (an upgrade on the stock base car) would be a good practical solution.
In phase 2, the stock vehicle was modified with the Focus ST suspension. This setup included revisions to the front and rear spring rates, dampers, and the rear anti roll bar. In phase 3, the Focus with the modified ST suspension was retested. The process included a subjective vehicle assessment, objective ride and handling tests, on-road shake measurements, and two-post shaker rig measurements.
The studies concluded, and the presenters argue, that while the vehicle carrying the greater unsprung mass at each wheel did display perceptible differences compared with the stock vehicle, those differences were minor and can be mitigated using “normal engineering processes within a product development cycle.”
By fitting the upgraded ST-level suspension to the car replicating one equipped with Protean PD18 in-wheel motors, the vehicle’s handling and on-center tracking were improved back to reference. Overall, the effort conducted by Protean Electric, Lotus Engineering, and Dunamos may help convince skeptics that the addition of 30 kg of unsprung mass per corner will not adversely impact overall vehicle dynamics and can be addressed fairly easily with cost-effective countermeasures.
ev.sae.org/article/9493/
In wheel electric motors (also known as hub motors) have been around since before Tesla, and I, like you, thought they would be an amazing breakthrough in EVs. There are really 2 engineering problems though, one is solvable, one is a question mark. The first is that it adds significant unsprugn weight (which you covered). That isn't a trivial problem to solve, but it is solvable, and has been solved in individual cases. There are several EVs that have had in wheel motors and they are viable (MIEV for one), others have tried and abandoned the idea (I believe Canoo tried and abandoned it, but that is just based on my memory).
However the second problem is one of durability. Cars and truck parts have to withstand a lot of vibration, and impact. When the parts are separated from the wheels by a suspension that reduces the impact and vibration on those parts. When you put them in the wheels, they have to be able to withstand a lot more punishment than one that is located past the suspension. It is yet to be determined if that is going to work long term. Sure they will be amazing in a new car, but how much maintenance and repairs will a vehicle with in hub motors require vs. the traditional way is still unknown.
Without their internal 2 speed gears. In-hub motors only have a couple of moving parts on strong bearings
@@golfish8589 I realize that this is more plausible with an electric motor, but it is still a question mark. AFAIK no one has an example of one that has lasted 100K miles, and until we do, it is unknown if it will work out or not. Roads are not perfect flat surfaces, they have potholes, people run over things, there are small variances in the surface that produce a lot of vibration. Even an electric motor could be destroyed shortly in those circumstances. The only production model I know of with this is the Mitsubishi MIEV, which was sold in very limited quantities, and had a very short range. Given this it is unlikely there are many high milage one around to see if it works or not, and I have heard nothing of their long term durability.
@@mikereinhardt1244 I agree with you, until it's PROVEN in the real world it's only a creative idea to be played with. I did not know the I-MiEV used hb's, I'm definitely going to look deeper into them. Two other applications I'm aware of was Workhorse/Lordstown Motors and Verge TS motorcycle, both not producing any real world data. Low speed light e-bikes and e-motos truly proved hb's work in limited applications, but I remain skeptical they'll ever work mainstream for highway usable vehicles.
Also exposure to elements. The wheel is in the mud, gravel, dust, rain, etc.
@@pi.actual Valid points. Those hub motors (all EV motors) are sealed, but over time with that vibration and coming in contact with debris and such that could not last. Like I said, I am not saying it wont work, just that it is yet to be proven to be a durable design.
A new mail delivery vehicle in the US comes to mind. I talk with my postal delivery folks who despise the worn out and smelly vehicles they have to drive. They are constantly in need of repair. Probably every country, on earth could use the same thing.
Her in Slovenia we have company Elphe that makes inwheel electric motors now fpr quite few years
They literally mentioned it in the video...
This is to John McElroy. I was born in Detroit. I used to work a Budd wheel. I really enjoyed watching the show the Highlander.😊
RV space simply lovely
The potential for four wheel steering is great.
This gets a big thumbs up from me with "hub motors" or wheel motors as they are sometimes called becoming viable because of new technology. And this design with internal planetary gears as part of the design is certainly interesting.
For the naysayers electric bicycles and motorcycles have been using hub motors for many years successfully.
😎🇦🇺👍
I think the question comes down to packaging. If you look at a dual motor Tesla, can the space where the dual motors occupies be better utilized? If the answer is "yes", then hub motors makes sense. If the answer is "no", then is the reduction of unsprung weight more important.
Yeah, about the only place these make sense is for the rear wheels of delivery vans. The e-Sprinter and Brightdrop have rear motors but it seems to elevate the floor a couple inches. But delivery vans are low power, so FWD ones like Rivian's may end up being the default solution.
3:49 - for reference a steel wheel and tire for an 18-wheeler weighs in the range of 150 lbs -175 lbs and those things are everywhere you look. now mind you that's just for a SINGLE assembly, so before we even talk about the massive weight increase of bolting 2 of them together (along with the unsprung weight of a hub, 10 studs, and a super heavy brake drum or disc and caliper, etc) in order to create a set of DUALS.
How does it compare to XL Fleet conversion on F250-F550 etc superduty phev in cost and fuel savings?
Is this combination of motor and shifting gears compatible with regeneration so that the motors can re-charge the car battery?
No breaks😮. Looks like they still have them
Maybe somebody should ask Lordstown motors what kind of problem they ran into. Electric motors are pretty reliable. I have a feeling that their will be a lot of reliablility problems when you have the motor bouncing inside a wheel.
The problem of the in-wheel motor is that you have to have at least two motors and inverters.
Unsprung weight is a killer of efficiency.
@@davidbeppler3032 make them light. Compare the weights
I can think of at least one vehicle that had this that would never went to being a commercial proposition the light year had in wheel motors
@@davidbeppler3032 I don't think unsprung weight affects efficiency at all. The weight you are spinning (i.e. the wheels and tires) affects efficiency. The motors are stationary (rotation wise). In hub or not in hub does not affect efficiency any AFAIK. The Mitsubishi MIEV used these and it got 60-70 miles of range off of a 16kWh battery. These have been used in electric bicycles and motorcycles for a long time and efficiency is not a problem. Unsprung weight is a problem for the suspension, not the efficiency.
also when the whell got busted. gotta be headache
This could be a solution for wheelchair vans. Skateboard designs don’t work for wheelchair vans because you can’t lower the floor.
This is because of the batteries, not the motors. Wheelchair vans are front-wheel drive. Now if we’re talking all-wheel drive wheelchair vans are, that would be pretty nice!
Commercial vehicle application, all wheels driving/ braking, sub batteries placement semi vans/semi trailers , docking and shuffling and charging line up park
Can these motors outperform Axial flux motors? Those seem to be the next-gen for electric cars. Can you compare Axial Flux motors to what's currently available?
The fact that it needs a transmission means no. The only thing this brings to the table is compact size.
@@douggolde7582 Axial flux motors are not knew, there was an ebike hub motor used brushed axial flux motor with exact same double planetary gear drive was most popular ebike motor in china many moons ago.
Bit of a pain to repair though. Older cars used brushed axial motors in the radiator cooling fans for many years......its not new.
Lucid has a small, powerful motor with an imbedded transmission. Maybe these guys should reach out to Lucid for a licensing deal?
Love it!
Now it’s proven that BeV is the future so only thing that counts for mass market is price. If it cheaper go for it. But if it’s more expensive it will only be a niche market.
Can it do regenerative braking?
John , Is there real interest from key OEMs. What do they say about it, feasabile or not. Does it pencil.
I'd like more info so I can get my 3WD Aptera
Interested in what ratio of torque to hp is possible in the motor/trans unit. For a very light, small vehicle you’d want as small/light a motor/trans unit with closer to even ratio of ft-lbs to hp so you had enough hp for acceleration needs without overkill in torque, yet as LIGHT a unit as possible. In a heavy or hauling/tow vehicle, 3X ft-lbs over hp, yet sufficient hp. Weight less a major concern.
the issue of course is electric motors are not a packaging problem as the axles tend to be outside the confines of the passenger cabin which just happens to be where the battery is placed under. automotive companies are well versed in efficient of that space as is and electric motors and their compactness made the packaging even easier. there simply is no point to in wheel motors for traditional vehicles.
I instinctively don't like the durability of in-wheel motors strictly because of their location. I haven't seen any research on the matter, so pending that, I'll allow that it might be at least be as good as the conventional configuration.
Have you talked to OshKosh? They make mail trucks and this looks like it might work well with their design.
@@frankcoffey they make "bodies". I think they don't do too much testing for durability and reliability. Their goal is to pick up the the paycheck
Maybe this is why Aptera put their hub motors on hold
I believe the company Aptera was dealing with did want to invest the money to build a motor for a low volume company.
I could be wrong.
I am only halfway through the video.
I hope you asked about Aptera since they were just forced to move away from in-hub motors
Interesting. Let's get some _real-world_ last-mile/delivery truck stats so we can gauge where these in-wheel motors could/should/woud be deployed.
I can see these on *DHL, FedEx, UPS* trucks. A decent price (read _low_ ) would help with wide adoption too.
A skateboard would help as well.
Unit cost is unfortunately where the market is. However, the performance car industry may love it.
How ruggedized is this? Where are the inverters sitting, in hub too (regenerative braking)? Heat dissipation? For commercial trucks, the 75 lbs of unsprung weight per hub is possibly okay, but for civilian usage, it will probably be a bit unwieldy, imagine 400 whp + 300 lbs unsprung. Thanks
Western automakers need to buy or invest in this type of companies before the Chinese do.
Torque value mentioned seems foolishly excessive unless for class5+ trucks or off road equipment.
The GM Hywire/Sequel hydrogen car projects really came up with the ideal concept... Universal skateboard platforms with detachable bodies... To me that level of plug and play modularity is where we are headed... But with electrics... Hydrogen cars are a dead end for all but the most niche of applications..
Tesla would disagree. GM might agree though. We are seeing a move toward this idea in manufacturing, but they don’t make the most efficient end products, they are just easier to adopt.
So is this a tier one only thing, or will they sell this off the self to anyone?
Seems to me the problem people are having in the comments isn't actually with IWM's, it's with their strange inclusion of a 2-speed gearbox. Other companies have figured out how to make IWM's much lighter with zero need for the added complexity of a shift-able gearbox.
Any time you increase complexity, I feel there needs to be a valuable, beneficial payback. I'm NOT seeing it here. For highway usable vehicles I don't see this going anywhere, UNTIL someone can develop it and PROVE the concept in real world use.
@@RPRosen-ki2fk IWMs as a general concept absolutely have a place, but typically designs for them don’t involve an entire gearbox, they’re literally motors that often can act as your wheel hub. I’m really failing to see why they think a two speed gearbox is a necessary inclusion here. A standard IWM design eliminates a differential and axle, and usually includes a brake rotor and caliper, as well as eliminates most of the knuckle, suspension can literally bolt to it.
@@krispyywombat7382 If you're not pulling stumps, regular EV torque is quite satisfactory.
A two drive vehicle can instantly become a AWD or 4WD
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In wheel motor development can not go smooth without Michelin’s interest taken been care of.
I think most people don't understand what you are talking about here, but you are talking about tweels right? That could make a huge difference as they do some work of the suspension and would reduce the impacts on the motor.
@@mikereinhardt1244 who else, besides Michelin Tweel? The solution is a result of partner with Michelin to draw a line between two sections, tire vs motor volume.
@@philoso377 It would be a good matchup. Tweels do some suspension work in themselves, so it could reduce the stress on a hub motor. It also reduces the weight of the wheels and tires (which reduces unsprung weight. Aptera should partner with them if they are using hub motors.
The Aptera uses small motors like these.
They wanted to but the development costs were too high, and they went back to an off the shelf standard design.
Scateboards were bleeding obvious reality delivered. Where else would you plan on putting the weight ???.
Unsprung weight won't go away with heavy selling..........less weight is still weight that makes smooth roads a necessity. Best of luck.
Michelin launched an inwheel motor 15 years ago so this is not by any means a new “thing”
A lighter weight low power version for 4WD with KIA Delta-Wye motor technology might be better. Ridiculous high power performance expectations are ruining a good idea.
Workhorse (lordstown motors) invented this wayyy before
+35kg!!! That’s 77 lbs per wheel! Having 1 motor and reduction gear box and diff in the car is 160lbs. Motors in wheels will never work. High cost, terrible efficiency, major unsprung weight. Bad idea.
Yep. Bad idea. OEMs will love them.
Like he said, in a commercial application, northern end of the world. But I agree, the first thing that came to mind is way too much unsprung mass... you would think a single motor centrally with a drive shaft and an open mini diff on each wheel would be best...
I'm not a technical person, having said that check out Edison Motors for 3/4 ton plus & 3 plus axil trucks
They have already worked in many protypes, at least one mass sold (well for an EV) vehicle and in a plethora of electric bicycles and other vehicles (they are even used in huge mining trucks and other heavy industry equipment). The unsprung mass is a problem for for suspensions not efficiency, and that can be compensated for. The Mitsubishi MIEV used in wheel hub motors (2 on the rear wheels), and it was able to get 60-70 miles on a 16kWh battery back in 2017.
Electric motors can generate 6hp/lb and inverters are fairly light, and don't have to be attached to the hub motor, in non-hub motors they do that for simplicity and to save weight, I don't think they will be doing that if they commercialize in hub motors on a mass scale. The 35kg they are talking about are for delivery vehicles, that is a small portion of the weight of one of those things. 35kg would produce up to 300hp or maybe even more (per wheel). For a small car you are talking more less than 10 lbs per wheel unless it is very sporty (that would be 200hp ish for the whole car). There was a company that made in wheel hub motors that made a 640BHP AWD mini cooper more than a decade ago. It was a series PHEV, so it didn't have a big battery, but they drove it across the company and made close to 100MPG. This was a prototype just to show off their hub motors, but nothing ever came from it, and I have always wondered why...
It is possible, the question is durability since it is unsprung, and that is unknown at this point.
77 pounds in the wheel? Colin Chapman is puking in his grave.
US could compete globally with more innovation like this. Norway auto market has 27 brands of EVs, Australia 31 brands, competition will continue to drive improvements. Tariffs and protectionism just allow obsolete dirty unreliable technologies to hang on a bit longer, does nothing for long-term free market competition or technical leadership.
Totally agree with you. USA & Canada's protectionism will ONLY hurt the development, market and consumer. It is destined to fail over time.
Host reticent is asking guests for specs in U.S., not metric values - AutoLine hosts are often out of touch/over the top in lauding praise for anything relating to EVs.
Unsprung weight, durability of flexible high voltage power cables, subjecting motors to road shock, all possible negative factors. Tesla type drives far superior.
Wheelmotor. Oh yes, we hear about it for 100+ years. Everything is perfect and brilliant until reality strikes back and says "guys, you forgot about unsprung mass. So you lost. Next please!".
Dont want to burst anyones bubble, but this exact geartrain hub motor design was one of the first popular drives used in chinese ebikes and scooters, many many years ago. It was a brushed axial flux motor ( pre brushless motors became developed, same as used in alot of older car radiator cooling fans) and the exact same dual planetary drive train.Probably millions of them were made, it was extremely popular. This is in no way a new design, its a very old design, I dont know enough about whats going on in china now, but I would imagine there are many different versions of this type of system have been developed for larger vehicles. I have no idea if any are used in larger vehicles, but main point is its not a new design at all.
ruclips.net/video/j8bkN4hQgg4/видео.html 현대자동차가 현재 개발중...
interesting, having gears moving like that introduces weakness to the system
planetary gear set much more robust.
This will NEVER happen. The environment around the wheel is incredibly harsh, not a good place for an electric motor and its supporting compnents. A half shaft is not a big deal.
This would be better sandwiched between the Transmission, and differential. While I'm older, and don't drift my pickup truck, when it rains, anymore, I want a vehicle that CAN rotate. Maybe none gear heads don't notice the handling difference. At the same time, I've had non gear heads, realize a properly set up vehicle, is more fun for them as well. It's also safer. Heavy un-sprung weight, makes a good vehicle, feel like it's clumping down the road. Clump. clump, clump...like jogging in snow shoes...it's just wrong. Everyone might be surprise, we already know how to build really good vehicles. That are more environmentally friendly, because they were reliable. The car that pollutes the most, is the one that's unreliable. Fishing around to fix flawed assumptions, about what really pollutes, is killing of the industry, and causing huge inflation. We're replacing our once reliable fleet, with wishful ideas, and magical thinking, and it's not working.
Can you say UNSPRUNG WEIGHT?
how many times did you invite that "expert" with the rotary engine... some technoligies make zero sense today... maybe in 20 years...
too heavy
Not better than trimotor setup
just what I don't want. Another 77 lbs of unsprung weight at each wheel. They need to invest in axial flux motors instead of forcing 100 year old technology where it doesn't fit.
Can we stop with the ev garbage now.... The market we the people have clearly spoken we don't want them
The US market is only about 22% of the total world automarket and the other major car markets are all going EV. So if you are fine with the US companies becoming uncompetitive and dieing in the next 10-15 years then go ahead and embrace ICE.
We wont even be able to export our ICE cars since the Chinese can outcompoete us on cost on those. So kiss teh US auto industry goodbye if we dont embrace EVs too.
I'll believe it when I see it. John is notoriously gullible to charlatans peddling silly schemes on his shows, like the failed ACHATES engine, remember, John? He should be MUCH more SKEPTICAL and not act like a 5 year old.
John is enthusiastic about automotive engineering & love discovering new companies & concepts. That’s very positive & needed in this slow-moving, conservative automotive industry. If he were gullible, he would invest in them, which he doesn’t.
Your comment is not fair, I have been watching this show for quite a while and it is about information on technologies that are new and innovative but also technologies that are here and now.
This comment is fair and is easily proven if you re-watch the Trevor Milton interview. 5-10 minutes of simple DD would have provided enough skepticism to support questioning all of Milton's claims.
How about durability?
Enjoy your weekend with all your family around you,everyone in Autoline Network,
Brilliant information video loved it
👍
WELL-INFORMED,Autoline Network
Questions needed answers
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Why are Techs leaving the automotive industry
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From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧 ⏰️ 17:29pm the 🌞 is out 🌞
Unsprung weight is the big problem.