If you want to know what happened to those 7,35 rounds, a lot of them were transformed to 7,62x39 blanks for Ak and Valmet rifles. The bullets were pulled off, the shoulder of the brass was pressed downwards, the mouth of the brass was crumpled up and sealed with wax. We used those rounds, when I was a conscript at 70'es.
@@IridiumRedTheOrigina When your neighbour is Russia and you're not a member of any big alliance you quickly realise that "If necessity is the mother of all invention scarcity is surely it's father" :P
@@IridiumRedTheOrigina Yep. We recently sent some hand grenades to Ukraine that were made from recycled Soviet 50mm mortar shells captured during the war. It took 80 years but now they found the right targer. We traditionally have a tendency to store stuff for a very, very long time. For example we kept the German 75mm PAK40 AT-guns in inventory until the late 80's. We also bought everything from rifles to tanks from the bankruptcy lot of the GDR/NVA when no one else was interested in it at the end of the cold war.
My grandpa left me one of these Finnish Carcanos. He bought it some time in the 60s (no import marks) after he came to America from Italy, so it must've been one of the first guns he owned. He said he was at a hardware store one day and a dump truck came and literally dumped a pile of these in the parking lot. They were $13 with a box of ammo so he figured why not. His friend ran the .22 plinking range at a local fair and he tried it out there blasting a hole through the steel target. Only fired that single shot before putting it away for 50 years when I took an interest in it and he told me this story.
@@Red_Star_robin When you think about it the sniper that did this probaly did not have used a weapon that even the average WW2 soldier considered inaccurate, not to mention someone from 1963 who was planning something that required exceptional accuracy ...
@@Bialy_1 According to brief reading, Kennedy's limousine was roughly between 100 to 150 meters away from Oswald between the shots that hit him. That hardly requires "exceptional accuracy".
Just wait until someone asks a really deep and interesting question about a French rifle... I wouldn't even blink if Ian travelled to the correct location to answer the question in situ! :P
In WW2 (and especially Finland) we are speaking of mostly agricultural society where most soldiers have quite little education. In these circumstances if something gets a bad reputation by word of mouth among the soldiers, nothing is going to fix it, ever, it will be repeated forever even by people who have no real or personal knowledge about the subject. It is also very difficult to tell if the reputation really has any validity or not.
@@lampreyjaws1736 Subaru’s had a bad rep before that. The 360 was banned in Japan because it was a lemon imported as a motorcycle due to the lack of horsepower and it didn’t have many safety features due to be a bike legally
I own a sporterized Carcano with a scope and a "LOT" of 735 ammo made in 1938. The packaging of ammo was impressive. Wooden box, sardine can, patrafin sealed box, paper sealed clips. I have shot a lot and every round fired. Gun is very accurate and quite powerful. Yes old style primers but clean after shooting so no issue. Did try a few Berdan reloads with boxer but I have enough ammo to not fool with it. Bought boxer brass and it worked fine but didn't want to didn't want to reset scope. Original fixed site was removed so no experience with those Italian fixed sites.
But the problem is a whole lot worse if even when/if the ammo is okay, your zero is fixed and not where you’d like them to be at that. Especially if the ammo is also of dubious accuracy. Ian didn’t say the problem was entirely duds but a variety of compounding problems with the ammo. Problems that unfortunately synergised with one another and the sighting issue.
picked up a case or 2 of cheap Ruag .223 a while back. about 2 mags into it "well, the kids can play with this garbage when they get older" and it's been collecting dust ever since.
@@Jay22222 The M16 had a dual aperture sight, the battle sight was zeroed at 250m and used between 0 and 300m. The long range sight (300m to 400m) was never used, since the US Army didn't (and doesn't) train for distances longer than 300m.
There is actually few jokes regarding Terni because we just love misery: "No man or rifle is left behind, expect Terni". And my favorite: "Finns have gone here and left behind Italian wood".
Are there any witty jokes in Finland about the fact that JFK was assassinated by a Carcano (well, depending on what theory you subscribe to this was only one of the rifles involved, but you get the point).
Its not what happened to the ammo on the way to finland. The problem is with Italian ww2 ammo in general. And its not just small arms problem. I am doing my own research into this since this problem went ALL THE WAY from hand gun ammo, AA shells, Tank shells to the big naval guns of the Italian Navy. Yes, thats how big the ammo problem in Itali was. So much so that the soldiers in Africa where leaving the new ammo alone and used the ww1 ammo.
Considering the standard Italian light machine gun at this time was a stripper clip fed 20 magazine lmg. Finding out their ammo was across the board super unreliable by the already fairly unreliable ammo standards of ww2 does not surprise me
@@Never_heart If it was just infantry ammo but the problem was much bigger. So far i have a feeling someone, Inspectors, did not do his job a all. He might as well not exist.
@@vojtechslezak4553 it could be that. But if I were to guess, a big aspect of fascism, especially Mussolini's brand was nationalism of production. For Mussolini's government it was more important to source as much as possible for as much of their armies as possible from within Italy. Even if the Italian sourced options were of a lesser quality. Idk if it applies here but it's a guess
AFAIK, my grandfather had a "Terni" rifle during the Lapland War. He was a truck driver in engineer (Pioneeri) troops so really never in the frontline. He did lose his rifle during first days of the war but never replaced it with anything. (truck driver in Lapland War really didn't need a rifle). He sometimes claimed he's the only soldier that went through the whole war without a rifle. (well, probably not the only one but...)
I kinda wonder why the hate. And thanks to Ian, I’ve been learning a lot about gun history especially this “Ask Ian” content. Looking forward to more of these!
The Finns actually worsened the sights, asking for them to be zeroed at 100m instead of 200m before the rifles being delivered. That way they were practicaly useless past 150m, well into combat distance.
My granpa was in his early teens during ww2 and did quite a lot of shooting, his father being an officer and an avid shooter. He recently recalled shooting practices arranged by civil guard where it was necessary to memorize Terni serial numbers as the sights were fixed and in order to hit anything one had to know how to compensate for each rifle when aiming... Apparently all the boys attending shared the information on sights as rifles were handed out randomly for each shooting practice. I currently have grandpa's old '39 Winchester 75 with magnificent iron sights and knowing he had a lot of trigger time with that thing, I can only imagine how he felt when he was handed the craptastic Terni...
I could believe this "inconsistent ammo theory", but the bad reputation of the Terni is fixed forever in Finland. My friend has a Carcano rebarreled to 308 Win, it's a handy and accurate "moose rifle". Lots of old Carcano ammo was used to make blanks for 7.62x39, the case has the same base dimensions.
Please don't embarrass yourself, comedian 😑!! The oldest company in the history of the world is an Italian firearms firm; maybe you have heard of Beretta!! Please don't put Italy down!!
@@steventhorson4487 Hey, if they sent Beretta 38 SMGs to Finland no one would have been complaining. Well the Russians might have, but not for terribly long
I had a Terni and a bunch of original ammo in 1970. The day I shot an old iron pipe with the 7.35 it but a dent into it. I also shot my 94 Winchester into the same piece of pipe. The 150 grain 30WCF put a clean hole through it next to the Carcano dent. I sold the Carcano and 6 or 8 sealed boxes of ammo in clips to a co-worker for 15 bucks.
I think any manufacturing simplifications that were achieved by removing adjustable sights were offset by having to make an accessory like a folding bayonet for the rifle.
@@neutronalchemist3241 It's a cool bit of kit no doubt, but I would think a simple steel scabbard and leather frog would be able to be made by less skilled workers than the folding bayonet.
Italian ammo production being uber sketchy seems to be a common theme in WW2, even their navy had ammunition problems, and no doubt the airforce had its ammo quality problems too...
The navy ammunition problem was actually debunked. Infact allied testing after thr war found Italian naval ammunition to be more reliable than German and similar quality to British.
Ian, thank you for covering my question (Prmetime is my handle on Utreon). I wonder if the Finns would have been more accepting of the rifle if the ammunition quality had been better? No way to know that. All I know is that I like my M38 and now that I have had my front sight fixed, I just need to get some more ammo to see how well or poorly it shoots.
I have exactly that type of bayonet in my possession! It had "always" been in the shed at my father's home farm, and my dad doesn't know where it came from. We have a suspicion my grandfather brought it home from the war, but never got around to asking about it. Maybe he lost or "lost" his rifle and/or forgot, or "forgot", the bayonet in his backpack.
Low temperatures can mess with even properly loaded modern ammo. I can only imagine what already sus ammo would be like in an environment it most likely wasn't even tested in.
Sounds about right... but also: if most of that ammo was produced just to fulfil the order that got Italy rid of them... "Someone" might not take the same care as if they were going to produce for their own military.
Also let's go a step further. Fit and finish (no pun) of gun is designed for Italian weather. I wonder if Finnish cold weather had odd behaviour on the rifle. Yes I know itlay has the Alps, but Finnish weather is quite a bit colder.
@@murphy7801 To push that same joke even further(still no pun) you can use example of italian cars. Those fiats were crap even in warm of italy. you can guess how reliable those were to start in -20(celcius) and below...
A lot of different nations had different views on (un)popular weapons. For example the Yugoslav partizans loved the PIAT and had mixed opinions on the bazooka.Though to be fair this wasn't made better because a good deal they got were from a bad batch and they got a very small amount of ammo for them unlike with the PIAT where they got significant amount (some have proposed that this was because it was seen as a bad weapon and churchill at the time was very against the partizans). They typically employe PIATs in teams of two to 3 with the additional ones firing if the first one failed to hit or to finish off a damaged tank or armored vehicle. The operators were also highly regarded as this gave significant firepower to them in assaults and ambushes the apt comparison would probably be the german stug crews in the first half of the war.
to be fair to the PIAT, it had no backblast, no rocket trail, could be fired indoors from a window, its warhead was larger than the Bazooka, it of course had a shorter range, weighed a ton and was a bitch to reload, but for an ambush weapon it would be great!
Perhaps the terrain in the balkans played a role? Isn't it quite hilly and rocky? Perfect for getting close up in ambushes and then getting away into the hills.
@@borjesvensson8661 Thats mostly in bosnia , parts of serbia and central croatia.(few PIATs made it to slovenia and serbia due to supply routes to there being harder to maintain). It was actually largely used in city fighting where a lot of praise came for it because the partizans often wanted to reduce the use of heavy ordinance in places where civilian population was still present so having something that could be used to hit heavy positions that could not be assaulted without heavy casualties was greatly welcome and when pushing trough the heavy fortifications in northeast croatia where german still had remnant panzer units or tanks they handed over to the "independent state of croatia"(basically local facist). Before the PIAT the only anti tank came from either what anti tanks guns, tanks they could capture and improvised measures(tank jacking was an actual thing that happened on a few recorded occasions).
I'll back up the Finns opinions. As a teen in the 80's all my friends had WWII surplus rifles (a 98k, Type99, and 03 Springfield). Not having much money, I bought a 7.35 Carcano at a gun show because it was the cheapest thing around and there was surplus ammo to be had in those cute little paper boxes with cloth flaps. Shooting that Carcano was like firing a cannon. Kicked like a mule, huge gouts of flame and the warden could hear it miles away. Made my friends rifles seem a bit anemic. Being a teen this was great! But looking back after spending decades in the Corps, I can see how it would have been hated as a service rifle.
You were firing single base propellant cartridges (more unstable than the double base used for 6.5 ammos) more than 40 years old. The stabilizer content at least halved, and the flame temperature doubled, in respect to new ammos.
I have a SA stamp on my 1939 7.35mm Carcano making it one of the Finnish "Terni's" from this group. I have never fired it as I have less than 10 rounds for it that came with the rifle. I inherited it from my dad who bought/traded (?) It from another G.I. who was being transferred back to the lower 48 after finishing a tour in Anchorage Alaska. My dad was going to make a deer rifle from it and actually may have used it to bag the caribou I remember being butchered on my mom's kitchen table back around 1960. He ended up buying a .270 Remington instead but he held onto the Carcano. I'm glad he did as it became the only war relic rifle I could afford...I only wish he had designs on converting an M1 Garand or even a BAR to a hunter. Well I can dream can't I? As it is the Carcano remains untouched save for the original owner varnishing the stock. Great video, I learned more about my rifle in the process.
Keep hanging on to it. They're getting rarer and rarer, and not many were ever produced. It may not reach big-dollar value in your life time, but it could end up being a game changer for your grand kids.
The issue with the sights is an interesting case where the differences in national military policy and its effects on doctrine really shape a rifle. For the Italians, the fixed sight allows for easier shooting by poorly-trained conscripts, cheaper manufacture to supply a vast quantity of said conscripts with the weaker industrial base of Italy, all driven to create a large, well-armed force of infantry able to work at close range in combined arms with the Italian tank arm - which, while never all that well-equipped, was also very large - all of which followed the goals of Fascist Italy to reclaim Italy's place as a major imperial power in the world. The Finns had neither the means nor the interest in becoming a major imperial power. Their soldiers were mainly there to fight defensively - though they would of course go on the offensive in support of the Germans - and because of Finland's small population, training enormous masses of soldiers were simply never going to be a factor. Finland's limited manufacturing capability was still more than sufficient to cover the needs of its small military, and with an emphasis on long-range marksmanship over combined-arms assault, precision sights were far more important than cost-effective production.
Rifle wasn't good even in attack and Finnish infantry was also consprit and in Winter war didn't get any training. It was better than only knife or axe and that is reason it was given to civilians for self defense (Russians shoots everybody or may rspe or torture no matter who you are) where there was proper weapon for replace it.
The Carcano rifles didn't arrive in time to see service in the Winter War. Nazi Germany held up arms shipments to Finland, because at the time, they were still allied with the Soviet Union.
@@stephenrickstrew7237 Truth be told, the Winter War was a fairly low-tech affair in WW2 terms. SMGs saw more widespread use than before and the guerilla tactics employed by Finnish ski troops had some novelty to them. I wouldn't call it appeasement (the USSR did get unceremoniously kicked out of the League of Nations), but global commitment to stop aggressors in their tracks was certainly lacking. I suppose we're slightly better off in that respect nowadays, but only slightly.
I’m lucky enough to have a M38 in 7.35 that my dad passed down to me. Civilian Ian initially told me how to determine that it came from Finland and how much he loves the gun, and now Footsoldier Ian is telling me why is Finnish comrades thought it was garbage.
@George S. Finns would had loved to equip whole army of 300.000 men with any decent Mauser derivative rifle,, and there were initial plans to do it. Just not fiscally possible. Finland was then very poor country. Extracting everything possible from Mosin platform and so keeping us in same ammo pool as enemy was in the end wise solution.
In fact Finnish Civil Guard were aware about the sights of Springfield 1903 rifles when they designed their rifles. Harry Mansner who designed excellent rear sight for m/28-30 rifle thought that that Springfield rifle sights were too fancy, fragile and way too complicated. He wanted to create sights that would withstand hard use but still would be fit for best of the shooters.
So they basically achieved the same operational requirement that the Liberator Pistol was designed to achieve at a fraction of the unit price. At least they had more range
It's like Ian is a superhero in a way. When people need him for gun advice, they simply point a light in the sky with the silhouette of the gun they want to know about, and inevitably, he comes!
Being a good presenter is key. There's a channel called Curious Droid, and he's the same. He's done videos on battleships, satellites, paper mills, phone boxes, etc, and they're all incredibly interesting for no other reasons than the impeccable research and delightfully good presentation. I've said, kind of tongue in cheek, on other videos that I don't care if Ian one day wants to start talk about cast iron wood fired stoves specifically from the 1890 to 1920 era... I'll listen to every word and have a good time.
I have an Italian Carcano 7.35m/m carbine that was a vet bring back from WW2 . It is fitted with a folding bayonet and features a fixed rear sight like the one featured in this video. Of all the milsurp weapons in my collection, it is the most unpleasant weapon I have to shoot. The muzzle blast is uncomfortable on the face and the rounded shape of the buttplate makes for a painful experience from recoil. I take less punishment from shooting one of my 8 m/m Mauser rifles with " hot" Turkish ball ammo.
I have an M39, well used, battle scarred. My friend has a Carcano, almost new looking. The M39 out shoots it by a large margin, it's more reliable, and it hits much harder. If I bought a carcano, it would be a wall hanger. I love the M39
That photos from SA-Kuva are fabulous! I love all the short jackets and high-waisted trousers tucked into their boots. As well as the varying expressions of scrutiny as they examine the new weapons in that first shot at 3:20.
I have 3 of them and I thought I knew all about Finn Carcanos until you got to the part about them wanting to add adjustable sights. That is really cool 👍
Ian, Drachinifel has been all over the utter unreliability of italian WWII ammo has it refers to battleship main battery ammo. The quality was all over the place, generally trending towards bloody awful. Ocasionally in spec.
A shame Drachinifel contributed to spread that bogus info (he never stated the quality being "all over the place, generally trending towards bloody awful. Ocasionally in spec", but that's internet). Infortunately he does not read Italian, so he has to rely on what he finds in English. Second hand sources, wartime propaganda, etc... A common problem between self-made historians. The only source for the problem with Italian naval shells was Adm. Iachino, that had to justify his fiasco at Gaudo / Cape Matapan, and had been debunked by other sources, (IE Adm. Emilio Brenta, or the same Fire Director Officer of the Vittorio Veneto ad Gaudo). Reality is that in the conditions of the clash at Gaudo, no WWII battleship would have hit anything. As a matter of fact, the Italian 152mm and 203mm are the only Cruiser naval guns that obtained some +20km hits during WWII (even twice in the same battle, so it was not a fluke).
@@grrrexky For that matter (no, the irony didn't pass over my head), tested by the Allies after the war, Italian shells proved to be more reliable than German ones. Not a big feat if you count that, of 4 hits of the Bismarck on the Prince Of Wales, only two shells exploded.
Fixed sites for frontline troops A frontline US soldier using the M1 Garand only adjusted his rear site - once - in 6 months on the frontline in Europe. In training in the US they were instructed to adjust their sites at each new position. In actual combat they rarely adjusted their sites. Probably due to the targets being at roughly the same distance and the targets would pop up and disappear so quickly, they had no time to use the sites. (from the auto-bio ' Men of K Company' published in 1972)
I think there was a possible apocryphal tale of the charge of the light horse at Beersheba, where the Turks were panicked and failed to adjust their sights as the enemy closed in at speed, firing over their heads. It's why I hunt with a capped turret scope. As sure as sure can be, I'd get pig fever or old timers disease and forget to twiddle or untwiddle something and the opportunity would go begging.
Yeah, wrong audience and bad ammo can basically destroy a gun. Admittedly though in a war situation like that you have to think of the gun and ammo as a system, and bad ammo means a bad system. Doesn't necessarily mean anything afterwards in civilian circles. =)
The Finns actually worsened the sights, asking for them to be zeroed at 100m instead of 200m before the rifles being delivered. That way they were practicaly useless past 150m, well into combat distance.
No it's a bad rifle. There's a good video of Ian and InrangeTv where Ian use in a competition against InrangeTv using a Kar98 his carcano. The kar98 mopped the floor with the carcano. It was so bad that the carcano bolt came out of the rifle during fast reloads. It's was also super slow to shoot. InrangeTv could fire an entire magazine out of the Kar98 and reload before Ian could even shoot 5 rounds out of a Carcano.
@@alessandrorona6205 Ian had problems activating the safety that I've never seen anyone else to have, for how much fast he could cycle the action. Simply testing one sample IS NOT A STATISTIC.
Seems very practical on the part of the Finns. Kind of like the Eddystone Enfields the US shipped to the UK in their hour of need. When you really need arms you take what you can get. It just didn't work out well in the end.
I seem to recall that the Savage Arms built No4 Lee Enfield made early WW2 were originally delivered with a simple flip up sight in an effort to expedite their delivery.
The British had designed that sight (300 and 600 yard aperture) for ease of production, true. The original sight, with their screw-adjustable elevation, was time-consuming to make and really wasn't needed for an infantry rifle in WWII.
I love this new "Ask Ian" format! So nice to see you taking more time and getting more in depth with your community's questions... Please keep it going! :)
My grandfather was issued with a Carcano at one point. He said it was the worst rifle he ever used, he didn't elaborate the reasons any further but he was thrilled to be issued with a M39 Mosin later on.
@@peabase could Be, he served through both winter- And continuation war. although i remember that My father Said he had one in winter war, but its second hand knowledge. My both sides grand dads, both served on winter And continuation war and died in early 2000's.
@@peabase now when i recall, My fathers father indeed was issued a russian mosin-nagant that had a imperial german Eagle stamp, most likely ww1 german captured mosin that was handed to finns by germans, i Have his war diary from 1939 that mentions it. so he most likely wasnt issued a carcano. The war diary goes on couple of months into a war And Then abruptly ends. My father Said My grand dad most likely realized The war wasnt really something to write about. So he mustve got the appreciation during The continuation war
I bought one at an estate sale with some original ammo. Fired 5 rounds and it worked. Bought some new ammo and reloading dies and love it. YMMV but so far it seems pretty solid.
This is interesting to me. I would bet these Carcanos is where my Dad got his negative opinion of these rifles. We always had military surplus weapons passing through our house. What a wonderful time when you could find and purchase all these old guns and so cheaply. But I remember he didnt like the Carcano and recall his comments about the Carcano that Oswald used. We had rifles leaning in every corner...lol I was fascinated with them, but the rule was never touch. However, I dont remember my dad ever saying no to letting me look at one. I had a routine of safety procedures each and every time I looked at any of them. But he allowed me to satisfy my curiosity and even knowledge. Even at a very young age. It was wonderful. I've always loved History and have always felt this sparked it when you can learn about weapons from around the world and the history of there usage. God bless all here.
I've got an alright condition M38 from the Ethiopian cache that was brought in. Overall a good rifle and the round it very mild to shoot. My only issue is that the last round get's pushed up too far to feed well usually.
Honestly, the fixed rear sights and carbine length should have made this ideal in forest fighting. I quess that was just different from what was used to, as even Suomi Submachine guns had adjustable sights.
The Finns actually worsened the sights, asking for them to be zeroed at 100m instead of 200m before the rifles being delivered. That way they were practicaly useless past 150m, well into combat distance.
@@neutronalchemist3241 That I was not aware of. It really does explain a lot, as 200m Zero for combat would not be bad, but yeah 100m, that's just awful.
Actually, I think the Finns rezeroed the sights for 150 meters, not 100. I don’t know what difference that might make but I do know at close range you need to bury the top of the front sight into the bottom of the rear v notch to be on target.
@@Amiga3000D 150m is the standard combat zero in RK-62 and was cut into Finnish M91 sights as well. It would propably be entirely sufficent for forest fighting, but of course there might be situations where you need to make those 300m shots.
Some decades ago I had a privilege to hear first hand account from one former gunsmith of WWII about development process of sights for Carcano carbines during summer 1943, test firings were made near location of Kuusankoski. There were actually two parallel sight developments, one for 7.35mm and another for 6.5mm. Finnish got also 6.5mm (compensating those missing carbines from 1940 shipment ???) in 1942, and they were 6.5mm (few thousand carbines) ... Both calibers had strange tendency to turn bullet sideways in flight after range of 100 meters, and as result the effective range due this was only about 150 meters. Ballistic drop was so bad, it had been compared to the Wild West era Winchester lever action carbines ( .44/40 and .45 Colt) and gunsmiths who were supposed to develop the sight for those Terni's, truly disliked those inaccurate short range carbines, and recommended abandoning the project. Only destructive feature was that sideways flying bullet did extreme physical injury to target person in ranges over 100 meters... Only time this notorious tendency became well known, was in Dallas, November 1963. the only problem was that Lee Harvey Oswald's supposed firing position was only 81 meters from location of hitting JFK ... In the other hand, a feasible location on the overpass was 107 meters from location fatal hit (second shooter? ) ... Carcano carbine's WWII 'bad fame' was well earned.., and 1963 made it even more notorious.
The Carcano is very common in Australia, given how many ended up here after we fought the Italians in WW2. To this day I have never seen a 7.35mm example in the flesh.
One Finnish Terni legend I've seen in soldiers' memoirs is that Ternis were produced by Italians for the war in Abessinia (Ethiopia) and because of the mountainous terrain there the fixed sights were set to 600 m. Hence, if you tried to shoot at a Russian in normal fighting conditions, your rounds were way over target. If this is based on unofficial field tests it suggests some inconsistency in sight zeroing at the factory.
My grandfather had a Terni rifle, brought back from the war. It was generally said that the barrel of the Terni rifle was made of too soft steel, is that true?
The Finns actually worsened the sights, asking for them to be zeroed at 100m instead of 200m before the rifles being delivered. That way they were practicaly useless past 150m, well into combat distance. BTW the M16 had a two aperture sight, where the battle sight was zeroed at 250m and served 0 to 300m. The long range sight (300m to 400m) was practically never used (the US army didn't, and doesn't, train past 300m).
Considering the adjustable carbine sight used on other Italian carbines is pretty useless too. I have owned and shot many 7.35 cal M38s and never had a issue other than poor quality surplus ammo, handloads in a rifle with good bore will shoot 2-3" 100yd group which is better than the avg Mosin 38, 44, 91/30.
I wonder if one reason the name Terni stuck, is that in Finnish, the milk from a cow (and a human) that's given birth recently is called terni milk. Rich in protein, makes delicious cheese. Anyway, word/name in use, and easy to pronounce.
Fantastic info! I've got to agree. The sight on my M/39 is probably the best military sight I've run into so far. That and the M1903 are the two sights I love best. So with better ammunition, how does that rifle perform today?
It is interesting to see even on the small arms level of manufacturing ammunition that their quality was subpar. That was one of the biggest reasons the Italian navy did so poorly. They had subpar quality shells that plagued almost all of the big ships.
He says that at around 3:38 or something, Terni was one of the armories where these were made, and the most prevalent one among the rifles sent to Finland, so it stuck.
Hi, great and informative video. Please note that carcano is pronounced with an accent on the first A. Something like Cárcano, from the name of Giulio Carcano, famous italian bike designer. 👍🏻
To be fair Italy couldn't afford to give even rifles to Finland. Their economy was such a mess, that Italy had to export new-built, modern artillery pieces to Hungary, in exchange for grain. Leaving the Italian Army mostly stuck with WW1 vintage artillery.
If you want to know what happened to those 7,35 rounds, a lot of them were transformed to 7,62x39 blanks for Ak and Valmet rifles. The bullets were pulled off, the shoulder of the brass was pressed downwards, the mouth of the brass was crumpled up and sealed with wax. We used those rounds, when I was a conscript at 70'es.
Fascinating. The Finns are masters of wasting little
@@IridiumRedTheOrigina When your neighbour is Russia and you're not a member of any big alliance you quickly realise that "If necessity is the mother of all invention scarcity is surely it's father" :P
@@andersjjensen I have never heard that extension of the quote, but will use it from now on!
@@Simon_Nonymous I have stolen it myself, so I can hardly blame you :P
@@IridiumRedTheOrigina Yep. We recently sent some hand grenades to Ukraine that were made from recycled Soviet 50mm mortar shells captured during the war. It took 80 years but now they found the right targer. We traditionally have a tendency to store stuff for a very, very long time. For example we kept the German 75mm PAK40 AT-guns in inventory until the late 80's. We also bought everything from rifles to tanks from the bankruptcy lot of the GDR/NVA when no one else was interested in it at the end of the cold war.
I never thought I’d see a countryball in Ian’s thumbnails.
Wacky huh?
Same here. Bizarre times we live in.
Countryballs aka the least funny meme of all time 💀
When you said countryball I was looking at his globe, and it made me think, do other people call globes Countryballs?
@@marcusfanning7513 you just haven't seen a good countryball comic
My grandpa left me one of these Finnish Carcanos. He bought it some time in the 60s (no import marks) after he came to America from Italy, so it must've been one of the first guns he owned. He said he was at a hardware store one day and a dump truck came and literally dumped a pile of these in the parking lot. They were $13 with a box of ammo so he figured why not. His friend ran the .22 plinking range at a local fair and he tried it out there blasting a hole through the steel target. Only fired that single shot before putting it away for 50 years when I took an interest in it and he told me this story.
Have you got it running again?
probably didn't help that it's reputation went in the trash approximately around 1963
@@AsbestosMuffins when you think of it jfk was probably the last ww2 Soldier/vet killed by a carcano
@@Red_Star_robin When you think about it the sniper that did this probaly did not have used a weapon that even the average WW2 soldier considered inaccurate, not to mention someone from 1963 who was planning something that required exceptional accuracy ...
@@Bialy_1 According to brief reading, Kennedy's limousine was roughly between 100 to 150 meters away from Oswald between the shots that hit him. That hardly requires "exceptional accuracy".
Viewer: "I have a question about Finnish rifles"
Ian: "HAT CADDY! FETCH MY FIELD GRAY! MY PEOPLE NEED ME!"
Just wait until someone asks a really deep and interesting question about a French rifle... I wouldn't even blink if Ian travelled to the correct location to answer the question in situ! :P
I like to imagine he has a full on dry cleaners style conveyor belt system, full of hats.
@@Rowcan It's a small elevator, kind of like a food elevator, down to the hat bunker.
a lot of people here think they are funny.... ask your wife if you are, she'll change the topic [if you have a wife]
Once a gun gets a reputation, it's a heck of a task to change that. Good or bad, a reputation tends to stick.
Same deal with cars. Like Subaru with their infamous head gaskets in the early 2000s. The reputation still lingers twenty years later.
In WW2 (and especially Finland) we are speaking of mostly agricultural society where most soldiers have quite little education. In these circumstances if something gets a bad reputation by word of mouth among the soldiers, nothing is going to fix it, ever, it will be repeated forever even by people who have no real or personal knowledge about the subject. It is also very difficult to tell if the reputation really has any validity or not.
@@lampreyjaws1736 40 years. 1980's Subaru was (in)famous for 1 out of 10 being a hopeless hanger-queen. The other 9, 'good cars'.
@@lampreyjaws1736 Subaru’s had a bad rep before that. The 360 was banned in Japan because it was a lemon imported as a motorcycle due to the lack of horsepower and it didn’t have many safety features due to be a bike legally
:AR-15 has entered the chat:
I own a sporterized Carcano with a scope and a "LOT" of 735 ammo made in 1938. The packaging of ammo was impressive. Wooden box, sardine can, patrafin sealed box, paper sealed clips. I have shot a lot and every round fired. Gun is very accurate and quite powerful. Yes old style primers but clean after shooting so no issue. Did try a few Berdan reloads with boxer but I have enough ammo to not fool with it. Bought boxer brass and it worked fine but didn't want to didn't want to reset scope. Original fixed site was removed so no experience with those Italian fixed sites.
About 4 years ago, I found a near mint 7.35 Carcano with the Finnish SA markings. I think it was $400.00 well spent, as I doubt I'll find another one.
Nice!
No, you won’t, so don’t sell it no matter what.
If the ammunition is unreliable, the sights become pretty irrelevant.
i was thinking the same
Ammunition/projectile is arguably the most important thing, if that isn't working right then it doesn't matter if the gun firing it is prefect.
But the problem is a whole lot worse if even when/if the ammo is okay, your zero is fixed and not where you’d like them to be at that.
Especially if the ammo is also of dubious accuracy.
Ian didn’t say the problem was entirely duds but a variety of compounding problems with the ammo.
Problems that unfortunately synergised with one another and the sighting issue.
picked up a case or 2 of cheap Ruag .223 a while back. about 2 mags into it "well, the kids can play with this garbage when they get older" and it's been collecting dust ever since.
@@Jay22222 The M16 had a dual aperture sight, the battle sight was zeroed at 250m and used between 0 and 300m. The long range sight (300m to 400m) was never used, since the US Army didn't (and doesn't) train for distances longer than 300m.
There is actually few jokes regarding Terni because we just love misery: "No man or rifle is left behind, expect Terni".
And my favorite: "Finns have gone here and left behind Italian wood".
That's pretty funny
En oo kyllä ikinä kuullu
I'm from Terni and I've never heard that. Why do you make stuff up?
@@jon2067 Perhaps Finnish sayings about rifles produced in Terni never made it back to Terni because Italians don't care about Finnish sayings?
Are there any witty jokes in Finland about the fact that JFK was assassinated by a Carcano (well, depending on what theory you subscribe to this was only one of the rifles involved, but you get the point).
I've noticed a pattern.
The older Ian gets the younger he acts.
Gun Jesus,skirt,sorry,kilt,gamer memes,countryballs...
I love it.
He's having a midlife crisis.
@@JohnTheRecoilJunkie doesnt seem like a crisis to me
@@JohnTheRecoilJunkie Midlife thriving
@@JohnTheRecoilJunkie No.
@@JohnTheRecoilJunkie Awesome!
"Hey, we just got a crate of new Italian rifles."
"Are they Berettas?"
"No...Carcanos"
"Throw 'em back"
Spoiler: Beretta did BUILD Carcano rifles
@@vittoriovaglio2031
Lol, there's a "Translate to English" link on your comment.
@@notahotshot how does it translate to English?
@@vittoriovaglio2031 "So long, gay Bowser! WAHOO! Itsa me, Vaglio. Spoiler: Beretta did BUILD Carcano rifles. Mama mia!" - Translated by Google
(Sorry)
Its not what happened to the ammo on the way to finland.
The problem is with Italian ww2 ammo in general. And its not just small arms problem.
I am doing my own research into this since this problem went ALL THE WAY from hand gun ammo, AA shells, Tank shells to the big naval guns of the Italian Navy.
Yes, thats how big the ammo problem in Itali was. So much so that the soldiers in Africa where leaving the new ammo alone and used the ww1 ammo.
Actually most of those "problems" were completely made up post-war. Starting with those of the naval guns.
Considering the standard Italian light machine gun at this time was a stripper clip fed 20 magazine lmg. Finding out their ammo was across the board super unreliable by the already fairly unreliable ammo standards of ww2 does not surprise me
@@Never_heart If it was just infantry ammo but the problem was much bigger.
So far i have a feeling someone, Inspectors, did not do his job a all.
He might as well not exist.
why was it though? primer compound being crap? crap chemistry?
@@vojtechslezak4553 it could be that. But if I were to guess, a big aspect of fascism, especially Mussolini's brand was nationalism of production. For Mussolini's government it was more important to source as much as possible for as much of their armies as possible from within Italy. Even if the Italian sourced options were of a lesser quality. Idk if it applies here but it's a guess
AFAIK, my grandfather had a "Terni" rifle during the Lapland War. He was a truck driver in engineer (Pioneeri) troops so really never in the frontline. He did lose his rifle during first days of the war but never replaced it with anything. (truck driver in Lapland War really didn't need a rifle). He sometimes claimed he's the only soldier that went through the whole war without a rifle. (well, probably not the only one but...)
I kinda wonder why the hate. And thanks to Ian, I’ve been learning a lot about gun history especially this “Ask Ian” content. Looking forward to more of these!
It really is a fantastic format, you get so much more information than in a more regular Q&A answer.
The Finns actually worsened the sights, asking for them to be zeroed at 100m instead of 200m before the rifles being delivered. That way they were practicaly useless past 150m, well into combat distance.
My granpa was in his early teens during ww2 and did quite a lot of shooting, his father being an officer and an avid shooter. He recently recalled shooting practices arranged by civil guard where it was necessary to memorize Terni serial numbers as the sights were fixed and in order to hit anything one had to know how to compensate for each rifle when aiming... Apparently all the boys attending shared the information on sights as rifles were handed out randomly for each shooting practice. I currently have grandpa's old '39 Winchester 75 with magnificent iron sights and knowing he had a lot of trigger time with that thing, I can only imagine how he felt when he was handed the craptastic Terni...
I could believe this "inconsistent ammo theory", but the bad reputation of the Terni is fixed forever in Finland. My friend has a Carcano rebarreled to 308 Win, it's a handy and accurate "moose rifle". Lots of old Carcano ammo was used to make blanks for 7.62x39, the case has the same base dimensions.
.308 pressure in a Carcano action 😬
Ol' JFK didn't care much for 'em, either.
Lifelong NRA member, gets killed by gunman “Ironic”
@@smartsimplefit -A bait.
Twas a M91/38 in the old 6.5 Carcano, if I remember correctly.
His gray matter did not meet the 7.35 but rather the 6.5
Shot over....
Finland: We need help!
Italy: We'll help!
Finland: ......we need *better* help
Actually lol'ed
Please don't embarrass yourself, comedian 😑!! The oldest company in the history of the world is an Italian firearms firm; maybe you have heard of Beretta!! Please don't put Italy down!!
@@steventhorson4487 Hey, if they sent Beretta 38 SMGs to Finland no one would have been complaining.
Well the Russians might have, but not for terribly long
@@fien111 agreed 👍
I had a Terni and a bunch of original ammo in 1970.
The day I shot an old iron pipe with the 7.35 it but a dent into it. I also shot my 94 Winchester into the same piece of pipe.
The 150 grain 30WCF put a clean hole through it next to the Carcano dent.
I sold the Carcano and 6 or 8 sealed boxes of ammo in clips to a co-worker for 15 bucks.
I have 6.5, 7.35 and 8x57 cacano rifles all shoot pretty well with hand loads. Note the 8x57 is fired with a Single shot adapter and loaded very mild
I think any manufacturing simplifications that were achieved by removing adjustable sights were offset by having to make an accessory like a folding bayonet for the rifle.
You know they had to stick their italian flair somewhere ;)
The folding bayonet for the rifle removed the necessity for a bayonet frog and scabbard.
@@neutronalchemist3241 It's a cool bit of kit no doubt, but I would think a simple steel scabbard and leather frog would be able to be made by less skilled workers than the folding bayonet.
Why? Sights are more complicated.
@@neutronalchemist3241 They were issued with scabbards is what I understand.🤷♂️
Whenever i learn new things about my own country, i realize the importance and significance of these videos in a very different way
Does your name Paskajaakko mean shit-jaakko?
Italian ammo production being uber sketchy seems to be a common theme in WW2, even their navy had ammunition problems, and no doubt the airforce had its ammo quality problems too...
The navy ammunition problem was actually debunked. Infact allied testing after thr war found Italian naval ammunition to be more reliable than German and similar quality to British.
@@matthiuskoenig3378not to sound contentious, but what is your source?
Ian, thank you for covering my question (Prmetime is my handle on Utreon). I wonder if the Finns would have been more accepting of the rifle if the ammunition quality had been better? No way to know that. All I know is that I like my M38 and now that I have had my front sight fixed, I just need to get some more ammo to see how well or poorly it shoots.
I have exactly that type of bayonet in my possession! It had "always" been in the shed at my father's home farm, and my dad doesn't know where it came from. We have a suspicion my grandfather brought it home from the war, but never got around to asking about it. Maybe he lost or "lost" his rifle and/or forgot, or "forgot", the bayonet in his backpack.
Ian, I really do like this new structure of the "Ask Ian" videos on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Thank you.
Low temperatures can mess with even properly loaded modern ammo. I can only imagine what already sus ammo would be like in an environment it most likely wasn't even tested in.
Sounds about right... but also: if most of that ammo was produced just to fulfil the order that got Italy rid of them... "Someone" might not take the same care as if they were going to produce for their own military.
Also let's go a step further. Fit and finish (no pun) of gun is designed for Italian weather. I wonder if Finnish cold weather had odd behaviour on the rifle. Yes I know itlay has the Alps, but Finnish weather is quite a bit colder.
@@murphy7801 To push that same joke even further(still no pun) you can use example of italian cars. Those fiats were crap even in warm of italy.
you can guess how reliable those were to start in -20(celcius) and below...
@@Kesssuli My cars manufactured in Italy has had a lot to be desire considering electrical system reliability. No joke - unfortunately...
@@kimmokomppa8236 Fix It Again Tony...
A lot of different nations had different views on (un)popular weapons. For example the Yugoslav partizans loved the PIAT and had mixed opinions on the bazooka.Though to be fair this wasn't made better because a good deal they got were from a bad batch and they got a very small amount of ammo for them unlike with the PIAT where they got significant amount (some have proposed that this was because it was seen as a bad weapon and churchill at the time was very against the partizans). They typically employe PIATs in teams of two to 3 with the additional ones firing if the first one failed to hit or to finish off a damaged tank or armored vehicle. The operators were also highly regarded as this gave significant firepower to them in assaults and ambushes the apt comparison would probably be the german stug crews in the first half of the war.
to be fair to the PIAT, it had no backblast, no rocket trail, could be fired indoors from a window, its warhead was larger than the Bazooka, it of course had a shorter range, weighed a ton and was a bitch to reload, but for an ambush weapon it would be great!
Perhaps the terrain in the balkans played a role? Isn't it quite hilly and rocky? Perfect for getting close up in ambushes and then getting away into the hills.
@@borjesvensson8661 Thats mostly in bosnia , parts of serbia and central croatia.(few PIATs made it to slovenia and serbia due to supply routes to there being harder to maintain). It was actually largely used in city fighting where a lot of praise came for it because the partizans often wanted to reduce the use of heavy ordinance in places where civilian population was still present so having something that could be used to hit heavy positions that could not be assaulted without heavy casualties was greatly welcome and when pushing trough the heavy fortifications in northeast croatia where german still had remnant panzer units or tanks they handed over to the "independent state of croatia"(basically local facist). Before the PIAT the only anti tank came from either what anti tanks guns, tanks they could capture and improvised measures(tank jacking was an actual thing that happened on a few recorded occasions).
I'll back up the Finns opinions. As a teen in the 80's all my friends had WWII surplus rifles (a 98k, Type99, and 03 Springfield). Not having much money, I bought a 7.35 Carcano at a gun show because it was the cheapest thing around and there was surplus ammo to be had in those cute little paper boxes with cloth flaps. Shooting that Carcano was like firing a cannon. Kicked like a mule, huge gouts of flame and the warden could hear it miles away. Made my friends rifles seem a bit anemic. Being a teen this was great! But looking back after spending decades in the Corps, I can see how it would have been hated as a service rifle.
You were firing single base propellant cartridges (more unstable than the double base used for 6.5 ammos) more than 40 years old. The stabilizer content at least halved, and the flame temperature doubled, in respect to new ammos.
I have a SA stamp on my 1939 7.35mm Carcano making it one of the Finnish "Terni's" from this group. I have never fired it as I have less than 10 rounds for it that came with the rifle. I inherited it from my dad who bought/traded (?) It from another G.I. who was being transferred back to the lower 48 after finishing a tour in Anchorage Alaska. My dad was going to make a deer rifle from it and actually may have used it to bag the caribou I remember being butchered on my mom's kitchen table back around 1960. He ended up buying a .270 Remington instead but he held onto the Carcano. I'm glad he did as it became the only war relic rifle I could afford...I only wish he had designs on converting an M1 Garand or even a BAR to a hunter. Well I can dream can't I? As it is the Carcano remains untouched save for the original owner varnishing the stock. Great video, I learned more about my rifle in the process.
Keep hanging on to it. They're getting rarer and rarer, and not many were ever produced. It may not reach big-dollar value in your life time, but it could end up being a game changer for your grand kids.
The issue with the sights is an interesting case where the differences in national military policy and its effects on doctrine really shape a rifle.
For the Italians, the fixed sight allows for easier shooting by poorly-trained conscripts, cheaper manufacture to supply a vast quantity of said conscripts with the weaker industrial base of Italy, all driven to create a large, well-armed force of infantry able to work at close range in combined arms with the Italian tank arm - which, while never all that well-equipped, was also very large - all of which followed the goals of Fascist Italy to reclaim Italy's place as a major imperial power in the world.
The Finns had neither the means nor the interest in becoming a major imperial power. Their soldiers were mainly there to fight defensively - though they would of course go on the offensive in support of the Germans - and because of Finland's small population, training enormous masses of soldiers were simply never going to be a factor. Finland's limited manufacturing capability was still more than sufficient to cover the needs of its small military, and with an emphasis on long-range marksmanship over combined-arms assault, precision sights were far more important than cost-effective production.
Rifle wasn't good even in attack and Finnish infantry was also consprit and in Winter war didn't get any training. It was better than only knife or axe and that is reason it was given to civilians for self defense (Russians shoots everybody or may rspe or torture no matter who you are) where there was proper weapon for replace it.
I couldn’t think of a more demanding environment than the Winter War .or Guadalcanal…North Africa was no picnic either … ..
New Guinea had Guadalcanel absolutely covered.
The Carcano rifles didn't arrive in time to see service in the Winter War. Nazi Germany held up arms shipments to Finland, because at the time, they were still allied with the Soviet Union.
@@SnoopReddogg indeed it was 10 times muddier .. Buna Gona in New Guinea best described as a brown shade of hell
@@peabase winter war ended up being a proving ground for weapons , tactics ,doctrine , and global commitment.. Ie global appeasement
@@stephenrickstrew7237 Truth be told, the Winter War was a fairly low-tech affair in WW2 terms. SMGs saw more widespread use than before and the guerilla tactics employed by Finnish ski troops had some novelty to them. I wouldn't call it appeasement (the USSR did get unceremoniously kicked out of the League of Nations), but global commitment to stop aggressors in their tracks was certainly lacking. I suppose we're slightly better off in that respect nowadays, but only slightly.
I’m lucky enough to have a M38 in 7.35 that my dad passed down to me. Civilian Ian initially told me how to determine that it came from Finland and how much he loves the gun, and now Footsoldier Ian is telling me why is Finnish comrades thought it was garbage.
RE: Sights - Sounds like the Finns might have appreciated M1903 Springfields.
Thorne/Törni actually preferred to carry M1903 when he was in Vietnam.
@@Finlandiaperkele I thought he mostly carried the Swedish m/45 SMG
@George S. Finns would had loved to equip whole army of 300.000 men with any decent Mauser derivative rifle,, and there were initial plans to do it. Just not fiscally possible. Finland was then very poor country. Extracting everything possible from Mosin platform and so keeping us in same ammo pool as enemy was in the end wise solution.
In fact Finnish Civil Guard were aware about the sights of Springfield 1903 rifles when they designed their rifles. Harry Mansner who designed excellent rear sight for m/28-30 rifle thought that that Springfield rifle sights were too fancy, fragile and way too complicated. He wanted to create sights that would withstand hard use but still would be fit for best of the shooters.
@@pohjanmies5516 Perhaps the sights of the Pattern 1914 Enfield/M1917 Enfield
would have been preferred over the M1903 Springfield.
I once talked with a guy who spent seven years in Federal Prison for smuggling guns to the IRA. He said the code name for the carcano was:' Tractors.'
So they basically achieved the same operational requirement that the Liberator Pistol was designed to achieve at a fraction of the unit price. At least they had more range
Really been enjoying these lengthier answers to Q&A questions! Thanks, Ian!
It's like Ian is a superhero in a way. When people need him for gun advice, they simply point a light in the sky with the silhouette of the gun they want to know about, and inevitably, he comes!
Why are your videos always so interesting, I don't even care about history but I always listen from start to finish, how do you do that.
Being a good presenter is key. There's a channel called Curious Droid, and he's the same. He's done videos on battleships, satellites, paper mills, phone boxes, etc, and they're all incredibly interesting for no other reasons than the impeccable research and delightfully good presentation.
I've said, kind of tongue in cheek, on other videos that I don't care if Ian one day wants to start talk about cast iron wood fired stoves specifically from the 1890 to 1920 era... I'll listen to every word and have a good time.
Angry Finball triggers Russian fight or flight response
I have an Italian Carcano 7.35m/m carbine that was a vet bring back from WW2 . It is fitted with a folding bayonet and features a fixed rear sight like the one featured in this video. Of all the milsurp weapons in my collection, it is the most unpleasant weapon I have to shoot. The muzzle blast is uncomfortable on the face and the rounded shape of the buttplate makes for a painful experience from recoil. I take less punishment from shooting one of my 8 m/m Mauser rifles with " hot" Turkish ball ammo.
I have an M39, well used, battle scarred. My friend has a Carcano, almost new looking. The M39 out shoots it by a large margin, it's more reliable, and it hits much harder. If I bought a carcano, it would be a wall hanger. I love the M39
Definitely liking the Ask Ian series, please keep it going!
picked up an Finnish M38 a couple years ago, and i loaded my own rounds (since ammo is nonexistent), and that rifle is surprisingly accurate!
You know who really disliked the Carcano? The Kennedy family.
Exactly 💯 right.....it wasn't that bad!!
That photos from SA-Kuva are fabulous! I love all the short jackets and high-waisted trousers tucked into their boots. As well as the varying expressions of scrutiny as they examine the new weapons in that first shot at 3:20.
Seems to be beak-boots/lappish boots to
I have 3 of them and I thought I knew all about Finn Carcanos until you got to the part about them wanting to add adjustable sights. That is really cool 👍
Ian, Drachinifel has been all over the utter unreliability of italian WWII ammo has it refers to battleship main battery ammo. The quality was all over the place, generally trending towards bloody awful. Ocasionally in spec.
A shame Drachinifel contributed to spread that bogus info (he never stated the quality being "all over the place, generally trending towards bloody awful. Ocasionally in spec", but that's internet). Infortunately he does not read Italian, so he has to rely on what he finds in English. Second hand sources, wartime propaganda, etc... A common problem between self-made historians.
The only source for the problem with Italian naval shells was Adm. Iachino, that had to justify his fiasco at Gaudo / Cape Matapan, and had been debunked by other sources, (IE Adm. Emilio Brenta, or the same Fire Director Officer of the Vittorio Veneto ad Gaudo). Reality is that in the conditions of the clash at Gaudo, no WWII battleship would have hit anything.
As a matter of fact, the Italian 152mm and 203mm are the only Cruiser naval guns that obtained some +20km hits during WWII (even twice in the same battle, so it was not a fluke).
@@grrrexky For that matter (no, the irony didn't pass over my head), tested by the Allies after the war, Italian shells proved to be more reliable than German ones. Not a big feat if you count that, of 4 hits of the Bismarck on the Prince Of Wales, only two shells exploded.
Fixed sites for frontline troops
A frontline US soldier using the M1 Garand only adjusted his rear site - once - in 6 months on the frontline in Europe.
In training in the US they were instructed to adjust their sites at each new position. In actual combat they rarely adjusted their sites. Probably due to the targets being at roughly the same distance and the targets would pop up and disappear so quickly, they had no time to use the sites.
(from the auto-bio ' Men of K Company' published in 1972)
The M16 had a 250m zeroed battlesight, used from 0 to 300m. The long range aperture was never really used.
But that one time of adjusting the sights probably makes 95% of the difference, no?
I think there was a possible apocryphal tale of the charge of the light horse at Beersheba, where the Turks were panicked and failed to adjust their sights as the enemy closed in at speed, firing over their heads. It's why I hunt with a capped turret scope. As sure as sure can be, I'd get pig fever or old timers disease and forget to twiddle or untwiddle something and the opportunity would go begging.
There is saying that '' only thing you could hit with Terni was the ground if you stuck the barrel in meter deep''
So, the Carcano wasn't a bad rifle, just a bad quality round and the sights were bad used in the wrong war.
Yeah, wrong audience and bad ammo can basically destroy a gun.
Admittedly though in a war situation like that you have to think of the gun and ammo as a system, and bad ammo means a bad system. Doesn't necessarily mean anything afterwards in civilian circles. =)
Not even a bad round per se, just badly produced
The Finns actually worsened the sights, asking for them to be zeroed at 100m instead of 200m before the rifles being delivered. That way they were practicaly useless past 150m, well into combat distance.
No it's a bad rifle. There's a good video of Ian and InrangeTv where Ian use in a competition against InrangeTv using a Kar98 his carcano. The kar98 mopped the floor with the carcano. It was so bad that the carcano bolt came out of the rifle during fast reloads. It's was also super slow to shoot. InrangeTv could fire an entire magazine out of the Kar98 and reload before Ian could even shoot 5 rounds out of a Carcano.
@@alessandrorona6205 Ian had problems activating the safety that I've never seen anyone else to have, for how much fast he could cycle the action.
Simply testing one sample IS NOT A STATISTIC.
Seems very practical on the part of the Finns. Kind of like the Eddystone Enfields the US shipped to the UK in their hour of need. When you really need arms you take what you can get. It just didn't work out well in the end.
Yes, but Oswald liked them
Who would want to buy a Carano in a weird calibre step forward Elbonia
I seem to recall that the Savage Arms built No4 Lee Enfield made early WW2 were originally delivered with a simple flip up sight in an effort to expedite their delivery.
The British had designed that sight (300 and 600 yard aperture) for ease of production, true. The original sight, with their screw-adjustable elevation, was time-consuming to make and really wasn't needed for an infantry rifle in WWII.
Brought to you by Ian's Finnish alter ego, Janne Makkollainen 😉
I love this new "Ask Ian" format! So nice to see you taking more time and getting more in depth with your community's questions... Please keep it going! :)
I have lots of high end , rare , modern rifles. But. I bought a 350 dollar m97 calvary carcono. It's my favorite gun . I just love it
My grandfather was issued with a Carcano at one point. He said it was the worst rifle he ever used, he didn't elaborate the reasons any further but he was thrilled to be issued with a M39 Mosin later on.
I appreciate it very much that you study our history👍🏻
If the Carcano is good enough for Lee Harvey Oswald... it is go enough for me.
Gun Jesus might not walk on water but he sure can balance a rifle on a globe and a bookcase.
Similar to how many returning GI's from Vietnam felt about the early M16 running corrosive ammo?
Ammo wouldn’t be a problem if they had cleaning kits.
The finland ball in the thumbnail inflicted tremendous pain on my soul
Great video as always, Ian
My grand dad held carcanos on high regard. If i understood correctly he had one while he served in winter war
If your granddad indeed had one, it must have been in the Continuation War. The "Terni" didn't see action in the Winter War.
@@peabase could Be, he served through both winter- And continuation war. although i remember that My father Said he had one in winter war, but its second hand knowledge. My both sides grand dads, both served on winter And continuation war and died in early 2000's.
@@peabase now when i recall, My fathers father indeed was issued a russian mosin-nagant that had a imperial german Eagle stamp, most likely ww1 german captured mosin that was handed to finns by germans, i Have his war diary from 1939 that mentions it. so he most likely wasnt issued a carcano. The war diary goes on couple of months into a war And Then abruptly ends. My father Said My grand dad most likely realized The war wasnt really something to write about. So he mustve got the appreciation during The continuation war
I bought one at an estate sale with some original ammo. Fired 5 rounds and it worked. Bought some new ammo and reloading dies and love it. YMMV but so far it seems pretty solid.
I'd would never ever thought that Ian would put the Finland Country Ball in its thumbnail.
I kinda like it :)
I love history, and gun history even more.
Finns:oh cool new rifle
Carcano:*no adjustable sights*
Finns:AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
He has such nice hats, I absolutely love it.
This is interesting to me. I would bet these Carcanos is where my Dad got his negative opinion of these rifles. We always had military surplus weapons passing through our house. What a wonderful time when you could find and purchase all these old guns and so cheaply. But I remember he didnt like the Carcano and recall his comments about the Carcano that Oswald used.
We had rifles leaning in every corner...lol I was fascinated with them, but the rule was never touch. However, I dont remember my dad ever saying no to letting me look at one. I had a routine of safety procedures each and every time I looked at any of them. But he allowed me to satisfy my curiosity and even knowledge. Even at a very young age. It was wonderful. I've always loved History and have always felt this sparked it when you can learn about weapons from around the world and the history of there usage.
God bless all here.
I've got an alright condition M38 from the Ethiopian cache that was brought in. Overall a good rifle and the round it very mild to shoot. My only issue is that the last round get's pushed up too far to feed well usually.
Honestly, the fixed rear sights and carbine length should have made this ideal in forest fighting. I quess that was just different from what was used to, as even Suomi Submachine guns had adjustable sights.
The Finns actually worsened the sights, asking for them to be zeroed at 100m instead of 200m before the rifles being delivered. That way they were practicaly useless past 150m, well into combat distance.
@@neutronalchemist3241 That I was not aware of. It really does explain a lot, as 200m Zero for combat would not be bad, but yeah 100m, that's just awful.
Actually, I think the Finns rezeroed the sights for 150 meters, not 100. I don’t know what difference that might make but I do know at close range you need to bury the top of the front sight into the bottom of the rear v notch to be on target.
@@Amiga3000D 150m is the standard combat zero in RK-62 and was cut into Finnish M91 sights as well. It would propably be entirely sufficent for forest fighting, but of course there might be situations where you need to make those 300m shots.
Perkele
Absolutely perkele
Some decades ago I had a privilege to hear first hand account from one former gunsmith of WWII about development process of sights for Carcano carbines during summer 1943, test firings were made near location of Kuusankoski. There were actually two parallel sight developments, one for 7.35mm and another for 6.5mm. Finnish got also 6.5mm (compensating those missing carbines from 1940 shipment ???) in 1942, and they were 6.5mm (few thousand carbines) ... Both calibers had strange tendency to turn bullet sideways in flight after range of 100 meters, and as result the effective range due this was only about 150 meters. Ballistic drop was so bad, it had been compared to the Wild West era Winchester lever action carbines ( .44/40 and .45 Colt) and gunsmiths who were supposed to develop the sight for those Terni's, truly disliked those inaccurate short range carbines, and recommended abandoning the project. Only destructive feature was that sideways flying bullet did extreme physical injury to target person in ranges over 100 meters... Only time this notorious tendency became well known, was in Dallas, November 1963. the only problem was that Lee Harvey Oswald's supposed firing position was only 81 meters from location of hitting JFK ... In the other hand, a feasible location on the overpass was 107 meters from location fatal hit (second shooter? ) ... Carcano carbine's WWII 'bad fame' was well earned.., and 1963 made it even more notorious.
I bet there surely was a super secret project to add adjustable rear sights to those sten guns!
The Carcano is very common in Australia, given how many ended up here after we fought the Italians in WW2. To this day I have never seen a 7.35mm example in the flesh.
One Finnish Terni legend I've seen in soldiers' memoirs is that Ternis were produced by Italians for the war in Abessinia (Ethiopia) and because of the mountainous terrain there the fixed sights were set to 600 m. Hence, if you tried to shoot at a Russian in normal fighting conditions, your rounds were way over target. If this is based on unofficial field tests it suggests some inconsistency in sight zeroing at the factory.
My grandfather had a Terni rifle, brought back from the war. It was generally said that the barrel of the Terni rifle was made of too soft steel, is that true?
Countryball reference in an Ian video thumbnail? Hes becoming more powerful
Hard to warm up to any rifle that uses inconsistent ammo. Even harder for a trained rifleman to warm up to one that has such crude iron sights.
Also difficult to warm up in a snowy country like Finland.
@@ostsan8598 they have saunas. Of course, a lot of Finns immigrated to Florida after the war so maybe the saunas weren't enough.
The Finns actually worsened the sights, asking for them to be zeroed at 100m instead of 200m before the rifles being delivered. That way they were practicaly useless past 150m, well into combat distance.
BTW the M16 had a two aperture sight, where the battle sight was zeroed at 250m and served 0 to 300m. The long range sight (300m to 400m) was practically never used (the US army didn't, and doesn't, train past 300m).
Considering the adjustable carbine sight used on other Italian carbines is pretty useless too. I have owned and shot many 7.35 cal M38s and never had a issue other than poor quality surplus ammo, handloads in a rifle with good bore will shoot 2-3" 100yd group which is better than the avg Mosin 38, 44, 91/30.
I know a certain lee harvey oswald who however succeeded very well with this weapon.
As always, I learn things from these videos. Thanks Ian.
I have the same hat. It's a Finnish Army surplus hat, and it's a distinctive and cool look.
Ian"s is probably a repro. Varusteleka did a batch of repro M/36 uniforms some years ago.
Also known as "verikauha" or "Blood scoop"
I still do not understand why the Italian did not adopt the 'Spitzer' bullet in some form?
Great video. Learned a lot.
I wonder if one reason the name Terni stuck, is that in Finnish, the milk from a cow (and a human) that's given birth recently is called terni milk. Rich in protein, makes delicious cheese. Anyway, word/name in use, and easy to pronounce.
Fantastic info! I've got to agree. The sight on my M/39 is probably the best military sight I've run into so far. That and the M1903 are the two sights I love best. So with better ammunition, how does that rifle perform today?
We need more ask Ian!
If i ever find myself in combat, with ANY Italian service rifle, MANY things have gone HORRIBLY wrong...
Even a BM59???
@@SnoopReddogg looks like a knock off M1A to me. The M1A is a trash fire of its own.
Well, yes. War is in general, an unpleasant business. Unless you're Carton de Wiart.
@@JasonJones-zn2os bm59 is not a M14 knock off and Is a good Battle rifle.
@@JasonJones-zn2os the BM59 is basically the M14 done right, also their military version of the ARX is a fucking exceptional gun
It is interesting to see even on the small arms level of manufacturing ammunition that their quality was subpar. That was one of the biggest reasons the Italian navy did so poorly. They had subpar quality shells that plagued almost all of the big ships.
My grandpa had a bayonet from those but it got lost at some point when they moved 10 years ago.
Italy: we give you Carcano
Finland: no like, give me my money
Italy: NO 😎
He says that at around 3:38 or something, Terni was one of the armories where these were made, and the most prevalent one among the rifles sent to Finland, so it stuck.
@@jubuttib yeah, you were right, i didn't watch the whole video through lol
Ian will never pass up the opportunity to flex his immense historical wardrobe
I wanna go back to the fashion where those hats were in.
They were already using the 6.5x55 in the north so another different caliber would just cause more problems. In addition to crappy manufacture
Thank you for continuing to mention that Finland exists
Hi, great and informative video. Please note that carcano is pronounced with an accent on the first A. Something like Cárcano, from the name of Giulio Carcano, famous italian bike designer. 👍🏻
So bad they traded them for... Sten guns.
Took a while for that to sink in.
To be fair Italy couldn't afford to give even rifles to Finland.
Their economy was such a mess, that Italy had to export new-built, modern artillery pieces to Hungary, in exchange for grain. Leaving the Italian Army mostly stuck with WW1 vintage artillery.
That was interesting. I'm a finn and don't recall ever hearing about this bit of history. Impressive pronounciation and outfit, too. :)