Ricky Racine agreed! I had the same issue with Winchester rifle primers. They are undersized and loose in the pocket. I was getting scoring on my bolt face due to gas escaping around the primer. CCI primers solved the issue.
I would agree with this. You should check everything; oversize primer pockets, oversize flash holes. The packaging for that batch of powder, and primers is probably long gone so it would be impossible to check the lot numbers for those with hodgdon and Winchester for recalls.
Agree! XTP bullets are already larger than normal jacketed .44 cal bullets. I've seen more than 1 lot that had some variations in diameter that almost mic'ed at .431" as opposed to the advertised .430".
I'm going with out of spec primer pocket, could be enlarged due to multiple reloading, I do note, after seveal reloads of the same case, the primers do seat more easily..
I ran into this exact problem 30 years with H110 in my S&W 58 in .41 Magnum. Had the same cratered primers, split cases, etc. Weighed each load, no problem. Finally, if I remember correctly, it was announced that the burn rate too fast for certain batches. I suggest trusting the pressure indications, back off two grains, and see if your pressure indications don’t lessen or disappear.
You didnt say the cases were sticking on ejection. Thats an early sign of over pressure. Therefore I think you have a primer issue. Loose pockets or something.
Gavin, i was having the same issue with a similar loading. Switched to CCI Mag primers, and the issue went away. With Win primers the crimp on the bullet exceeded the ability of the winchester primers to stay seated in the pocket causing the flattening and leakage.
I would agree. Federal are also good. Remington & Winchester use to be much better than they are today. CCI has had some issues at times with SR & LR but have been fine lately. Federal has proven to be quite good for our family for over 25 years.
I would think loose primer pockets... or if the primer pocket is cut excessively deep the primer will allow some gas to escape around it before it flattens and seals. I would also check the over all length of those rounds. Measure using an ogive tool as well as just oal and compare it to similar rounds from your other box of loads. Maybe the round is seated deeper creating a compressed load. Another thing to look at is the volume of the cases. You can measure the volume using water. If that particular batch of brass is thicker it will have a lower volume leading to increased pressure. Would love to know what you find.
A rare possibility is the “welding” of the bullet to the case mouth. To test this, seat the bullet on these loads several thousands deeper and fire. If the over pressure signs disappear it could be this entity or over crimping. What a great hobby. Always things in work out.
Drop half a grain. H-110 has a 1 grain window between min and max load with a 240 grain bullet. H-110 is also temp sensitive. Try a cci standard primer. Lights off H-110 just fine in 44 mag, and you will have a lower SD than with mag primers, and better accuracy.
Had the same problem with cantamination from my brass. Case lube or moisture from wet tumble. Never found out which it was I just made sure my brass was dried well and only light lube on the outside. Problem went away. Hope you figure it out.
What bullets are you using? What about your oal? What crimp did you use? Heavy crimp with cast bullets that are seated deep will all cause pressure spikes.
Did you size your case before reloading? Measure length with micrometer? And then cut case down to size. I still believe is that the crimping pressure used varied crimping bullet. Or you may be starting to compress powder if that close to maximum load, slower burn building pressure in case before bullet or projectile leaves the case.
I think at this point I would look at bullet seating depth (consistency of your seating die). Then, I would check the primer pocket circumference consistency (could primers be loose) & primer pocket depth. Since it’s .44 Mag & your probably not swaging or cutting the pocket, so this may be a long shot....Looking forward to the cause.
I know Winchester had a batch of large rifle primers where the temperature on the primer cup was too hard and it was causing fracturing and gas leaking making it look like the round was way over pressure but it wasn't. In fact I believe they had a recall about this.
I think you are right. I remember seeing something about that not too long ago about a Winchester Primer Recall. I cannot remember where or when. lol I just looked on the Winchester website and nothing is listed for their Primers. So it might have been last year or the year before. But I do remember seeing something on a couple of the Hunting/Shooting programs on TV and a couple of shooting/hunting websites not too long ago. It might have been last year around this time. You could check with Winchester about it.
I might check the case capacity of the brass. Looking for variance from case to case. Also the primer deformity can result from bullet set-back. Lastly, when I loaded 44mag back in the day I had to mindful of the roll crimp in the bullets cannelure, if in fact yours has them. I had a tendency to WAY over crimp in the groove. And yeah, some rounds felt a little "spiky". Good luck man !!
I agree with others on Winchester primers. It may seem odd but I have had experience loading for and shooting a primer actuated rifle. We used Winchester primers because they are slightly under sized so they move well in the primer pocket. This is great for primer actuated but terrible for normal rifles. I have actually had Winchester pistol primers completely blow out of 7.62x25 tokarev case when fired from an open bolt ppsh41. Bad news and jam city
Did you check COLto make sure bullet isn't seated too deeply? I agree with other comments that it would be worth trying a different primer, paying attention to fit when you press it in.
I would say It's the Winchester primers. I had the same problem with my 357. I had to load at a lower charge in the manual with H110 to prevent cratering and flattening of the primers.
I switched from "H110" to "Lit'l gun" powder for my magnum pistol loads two decades ago for my 50AE and 440 COR-BON because it seemed more stable to me at the time. And the powder charge VS velocity/pressure is identical.
"And the powder charge VS velocity/pressure is identical." Are you trying to claim that H110 charges and LilGun charges are the same for a given cartridge and projectile? Because that is not in any way true. They might be close because they are close in burn rate, but they aren't the same.
@@Oldhogleg You may be getting similar velocities, but they are not identical and neither are the pressures. The powders are very close to each other so you may not see velocity variations out of pistol length barrels. But suggesting that you can use identical charges for two different powders is dangerous and irresponsible advise to people who may read this.
@@cawpin It wasn't me that advised the substitution, it was a published publication I read two decades ago. Plus I chronograph all my handloads anyway. And always look for signs of over pressure regardless. Why are you being neurotic?
having worked at lake city for 30 years i would suggest to you that you take a blackened primer and one that is not and have a chemical analysis done on the two primers to see if one may have been hotter than the other mixes do vary minutely from time to time and could cause this problem all though it should have been caught it may not always be caught
I use the same load in my Deerfield carbine. After maybe 4 or 5 reloads the primers start to leak from worn out pockets. I always thought it was caused by the semiauto action... the Deerfield is hard on brass if you can find them. I use the same brass, powder charge and bullet, but cci primer.
Tumbling brass in media can can contaminate powder and or brass especially if you add something to the media. In the case of brass contamination you can get "bullet weld". I don't tumble brass any more, I just had boiling water, little dish soap, the brass in a closed container and shake it up for a couple of minutes and then rise well and oven dry. Since the powder has a slightly different color, this would indicate some kind of contamination possibly. I have experienced premature primer pocket expansion loading 224 Valkyrie using Starline brass. Let us know if you solve the issue.
might check the case capacity of the starline brass. Their 308 is a little closer to 7.62x51 than other brands of 308, could be the same with the 44 mag brass.
Thanks for sharing. Temperature has a lot influence when reloading. what was the outside temperature when you shot these rounds? The brass appears to be showing over pressure and i suspect if you shoot this load in cooler temperatures you should not see the same result. Recommended down loading this a 1/2 grain or two for summer loads.
Use CCI primers as the fit a little tighter in the pocket and may seal better. I have seen some loose pockets although rare in Starline brass... I usually load Blue Dot 16.2 grains behind my 240 grain bullets for best accuracy... 1375 fps from the 8 3/8 S&W 29
I got the same surprise with 2.5" S/W629 but worst in super 14 T/C with 200 gr Gold Dot. I was using sealed 8 lb jugs. Accurate but in Super 14 you could tell higher rate of recoil. Stored in air-condition room with alot of other new materials. First time and I suspect primers. Change to federal primers and same power. Tried other primer but from the other end of a 5000 case all fine.
Only had 3 boxes of 100 that gave the scary over pressure. Chrono readings were 214 fps faster than normal. Rest of case no problem and first time this has happened since 1979. Loaded several hundred of thousands of rounds. Could be worst and no pressure problem if shot in below 26 degrees. Or if it's so cold the bullets stick to your tongue...lol.
Something I read somewhere Winchester primers have been known to elongate the primer pockets so I don’t know if that could be partly the issue i only load 357 magnum with h110 never had that issue but I also use federal magnum primers
i use 34gr h110 for .50AE. i switched from cci magnum large pistol to just regular cci large pistol No. 300 and that seems to be keeping the case expansion down. those magnum primers, i feel, should be used under 90%case fill, they are hot. i have never seen gas creep out of the primer pocket and i basically load proofing rounds for .50.
I had this issue with 45 Colt in a SAA copy(Uberti). I was using starline brass also which turned out to be the problem. After I determined there were no dimensional problems I switched from Winchester primers to CCI. Didn't help. Then switched to Winchester brass and no more problem. The starline primer pockets were oversize.
I have noticed differences in the feel when seating primers in my 44 mag, star line brass, cci primers were nice and tight then I used federal and they seemed a looser fit put this together with that h110 max powder charge you could have back pressure leakage around the primer pocket. Just a thought?
Gavin I have seen this what I realized is the primer pocket was shot it was blew out. I noticed it on rifle brass that I was reloading to failure with soft loads. Basically what I seen was the brass was fine in every way except for the primer pocket. When seating the primer they were kinda lose compared to the others in the group. What ended up happening is as I pulled the blackened primer cases the rest in the group would fail in the next firing
Had that problem with old reloads. You need to set the die lower and break the seal. Was told by a gun smith that possible corrosion between cooper and brass.
I load a lot of .44 magnum for my 6" S&W 629 & Big Boy Henry. Generally do not load on the hot end of power weight. Any possible seating depth or crimping issues? How do you clean your primer pockets? And could the primer pockets with the primers being used not seal as well as they should? Great videos by the way.
That would be true for a semi auto, but this is a revolver. Unless he is using a hammer to insert the cases into the cylinder. There should be no pressure on the bullet to cause it to shift deeper into the case.
@@jamespierson9312recoil alone can cause bullet setback, it can happen in heavy recoiling rifles such as the. 458 Winchester magnum, and because these revolvers are lighter weight, they will have even more recoil.
I agree with those that have said Go to CCI primers ! Never had problems with them. The wins are soft. It could also be worn out brass. Shooting Max charges will ruin the brass quickly. Even expensive Star line brass!
I really enjoy your content. Just started really getting into your vids. Therefore I am a year behind. I have been shooting & reloading 44 mag since 1985. I have been hunting deer with 44 handgun & rifle since 1992(I think:93?). I have shot literally thousands of 44 through S&W 29/629, Ruger Blackhawk & Redhawk. H110 & W296 have always been my preferred powders. 23-25gr. under 240s. When XTP was introduced, I adopted it for deer. Always effective. I haven't seen this. We bought brass bulk(500-1000) Starline is a thicker case wall. I have seen split Remington nickel from reloading too many times(brittle). We had poor Remington primers poking holes at firing pin. Back off to 23.3 or 23.5. May have a case volume issue.
I have never had that type of result from any load. I obviously looks like gas is leaking past/around the primer. I would take careful measurements of everything that can be measured from a fired case, and compare with a new case. Including primer dimensions, primer pocket, weights, etc. Is it possible to send a sample of loaded powder to Hodgdon for chemical analysis? It obviously has to be either a mechanical or chemical issue. Good Luck!
Without extensive measurements of the subject cases one cannot say for sure, but it appears that you may have some over length cases. Over length cases might press against the chamber forcing cone and prevent the cylinder from closing prior to charging with powder and seating of bullets. However, if you crimp the case heavily, as you should with H110, the cartridge may appear to chamber correctly. When the cartridge is fired the bullet pinches the case mouth against the forcing cone walls causing a great spike in pressure due to the interference fit. It does not take much interference to cause this effect, and since it appears to be happening with just a few cases out of the box I would think this has a good possibility. Some new brass comes with varying over all length, and needs to be checked prior to loading.
2 things I have seen black primer pockets and it turns out bad brass also try a different brand of primers to see if it does it if not then the primers you have are magnum primer labeled wrong that’s had happened
Seating depth ? Primer pockets ? That's all I've got I think you covered everything else. Case capacity is an issue with rifle could it be possible with handgun?
Reloaded 44 Mag for handgun metalic silhouette matches in the 90's. Obviously full house loads. Tried Blue Dot, Unique, WW296, H110 and others. CCI primers, mostly R-P brass. Hornady 240 FN FMJ. Had acceptable results, but the WW296 gave highest mv, most precise, least perceived recoil. I'd recommend checking primer pockets w/guage pin, mic your primers. Interference fit required, but I forget how much. I know it's tedious, but big sample size is worth it. Good luck. BTW, I never experienced any flash through, ever.
Do to Winchester primers being on the small size and if you reloaded the brass a few time, with ball power like h100 it can work its way into the primer pocket itself and when the gun is discharge not only are you igniting the primer but a few grains of power in turn causing over pressure
Take note of which chambers in the revolver the are showing the issue. Could be a timing issue. If it is always on the same Chambers the revolver may be slightly out of timing and the extra pressure is caused by the bullet just be a couple thousands out of alignment with the barrel forcing cone. This would definitely lead to a change in pressure from one chamber to the next. I hope this helps and problem solved.
Years ago I had same problem however that went away when I backed down my loads until !9.5 grains and it stopped. I was told to hot load for long barreled pistols!
I use the same load, except I use the magnum primers and no problems, I would measure the case head to see if the primers are not seating properly or a bad batch of undersized primers that fit to loosely or the powder mix is off from the start, I hope that you find out the issues of your problems. Also, the speer manual shows a load of 24.5 grains for the 240 grain bullet or a possible over crimp pushing the pressures to high, back down load and work up slowly I wish you the best of luck to isolate your malfunction.
Perhaps the primer pockets are looser due to excessive cleaning causing less friction to hold the primers in tight? micrometer? Im very new to reloading so i probably sound like an idiot.
Had your ammo sat in the sun in your car? I got some very high velocities today, versus the same loads chronographed at -28 this winter. 400 fps variation at over 100 f.
It might not be be the right answer, but I think switching to lilgun powder with cci or federal mag pistol primers primers might fix your problem. I like lilgun much better than H110 across the board.... but that’s just an opinion.
Did you work up the load by starting 10% below listed maximum and then increase by 1 or 2 tenths of a grain, watching for pressure signs? Or did you jump right to the maximum load listed? Did you use exactly the same components listed in the loading manual? Sometimes Starline brass can be a little heavier than other brands and this can raise pressure signs a little sooner while working up. My suggestion is to use data listed in the loading manual of the bullet manufacturer and always work up. If you change to a different lot of powder, always work up. And when you get within 5% of a listed maximum load, it is absolutely imperative that you start weighing each individual powder charge.
Back in the day Elmer Kieth would only use max loads with new brass. Also today with the rush to crank out brass fast they may have slipped up on the heat treatment of the brass. Hope you know who Kieth was, if not read him, especially if you load to max.
I'm guessing excess case lube got inside, and when it was charged with powder became contaminated, and when fired the burn rate was altered, causing excess pressure. Is that even possible?
I don't recall H110 being position sensitive, but maybe? I would focus on the cases primarily; especially hardness, capacity, and maybe even rim thickness. I have had this happen when I loaded my typical M1 Garand load for commercial cases into some surplus cases that I may have over-annealed slightly. Blown and black ringed primers in 6/8 cases.
My favorite handloading for 44 mag has always been the 180 grain hollow point with 28 and a half grains of h110, however I have loaded that at 29, 30 grains which is Max load. However I got such great consistency and accuracy out of my very first load which was it 28 and a half I generally stuck with that. How many times has that brass been Reloaded. Check the timer flash hole on a new cartridge against the flash hole diameter on the cartridges that seem to be failing. Even a few thought of an inch increase in the size of the primer flash hole can lead you more to detonation of the powder charge than to ignition of the powder charge. Also check the primer flash hold from lot-to-lot of your cartridges. Back in the early 90s Winchester had inadvertently started weed dressing their primer flash hole punch. Unbeknownst to them, the primer punch had a cone-shaped to it and they had gotten from about a .072 flash whole almost to a point where it was .092. We found that out this locally when a police officer who is carrying a Browning hi-power, blew his gun up. And that is a rather substantial piece of work to do to blow up a Browning hi-power. My gunsmith started doing research and found part of this issue that some of the ammo that Winchester was making for the military was also making its way into General use because they were manufacturing these particular lots of ammo. Preface this this was the same time frame when the Berettas that they had recently purchased we're blowing up in people's hands in injuring people with the slide coming apart and hitting people in their face. Turns out that they were getting chamber pressure somewhere in the vicinity of 42000 copper units of pressure. They had clearly gotten to a point where they were detonating the cartridge instead of igniting the powder charge. That's the primary issue that comes to mind I think you may have reloaded these shells enough that it has expanded the base enough where the primer flash hole itself may have increased in size, something to keep an eye on. I'd also like to know that Starline brass is usually very good brass, a little bit on the thin side and in its original form is a bit on the soft side as well those are all good things in General, but the fact that it is thinner at the base is not great for 44 mag use when you are reloading a number of times. One other thing I just thought of, I almost always Harry for 44 mag Ruger Super Blackhawk. That has a much longer jump between the cartridge and the forcing cone and lands than a double action revolver of any type. That may also add to your chamber pressures because it doesn't have the long bullet jump. If you look at a fire projectile from a single action revolver and looked at how the bullets kids on the lands before it engages them in relation to a double action revolver where the bullet isn't going nearly as fast. Remember, that bullet in a single action revolver is leaving the cylinder at close to 1,200 feet per second. I've seen test done on a firearm the headaches Barrel removed and with the Winchester 240 grain Factory load it produced a velocity of 1150 feet per second. If you walk that back to the size of a double action revolver, you're not getting the speed of the blood up so much but your pressures are considerably higher and they're still Rising at a much higher rate in that double action cylinder when the bullet has to be forced into the lands than in a single action gun. That could be a couple of thousand if not several thousand pounds more pressure in your chamber pressure and a double action revolver than in a single action.
1) Oversize primer recess on the cartridge or undersize Winchester primers, or a combination of both...? 2) Also, check the headspace between the cylinder and forcing cone, make sure there is no excessive run out + run some factory ammunition for comparison 3) Check each of the cartridge cylinders for any signs of crud or leading
If it’s not loose primer pockets, I would guess it’s either bullet setback during recoil, or possibly cylinder throat(s) that are too tight. Only time I’ve ever had that issue with flattened primers and/or gas blow-by from primer has been a load that was too hot. I’ve had nasty horrible results with CCI primers doing things just like this so I’ve switched away from them years ago. I only use WLP now for all large pistol primer needs.
Running a max pressure load through QuickLoad and looking at the incremental load table output, the +10% burn rate calculation shows a pressure of 44622 psi. This is significantly over the 36000 SAAMI spec. Maybe just a burn rate variation, but it's odd that it's so few of the rounds that are showing the problem.
Primers - Winchesters are notoriously under sized and perhaps on the soft side. A soft primer will differently flatten more. I use the same primers, but shy away from them in my 300 grain 44Mag loads. 24 grains of H110 under a 240 is a 'suggested starting load' LOL
@@bendennis8773 I'm an old fart, close to 70. I have older manuals that were developed prior to modern pressure measurement methods. Are those loads dangerous? Not really. But there isn't any reason to go there and it's not advisable.
Million dollar question. Did you work up to these pressures using the same components, or did you just assemble a bunch of cases just below the maximum threshold. There are several variables that change the pressure of a cartridge, such as bullet depth, or wall thickness of the case. Also, have you considered that the pockets might be a little lose. If that's the case, you should try another primer by a different manufacturer. I don't do much reloading myself, but I've found from the little that I do that I don't get maximum load capability sometimes due to signs of pressure.
Nice video buddy. I primarily reload 500 S&W so I've dealt with magnum reloading inconsistencies. I've found through testing a combination of CCI primers and Hodgdon Lil'Gun provide EXCELLENT magnum cartridge results. I use CCI large rifle magnum primers. Make use your pockets are clean and sized using common tools. Seating depth is CRITICAL. Some of the primer seating tools don't seat properly into magnum cartridges. Try a few different seating tools and measure the seating depth. I've found Lyman e-zee works best with a small piece of electrical tape on the surface of the rod. Otherwise you risk light primer strikes. Been there before. The Lil'Gun powder works great for magnum cartridges at many loads. I reload at 100%, 90%, 85%, and 80%. Lower than 80% causes accuracy issues. Some of my family prefers to shoot the light loads because the 500 is a bit much for some people. Anyway... Ping me back if you want to discuss more. I'm subscribed with notifications and all that too. Thanks for all the videos.
Seen it but mine was over charging of the powder. I took the advice of a friend and it turned out to be wrong. Thankfully it was only 10 rounds for testing and did no damage to the gun.
Did you reload a couple of the original cases, i.e., breakdown the load, reload it, shoot. I believe the folks that mentioned 'welding' of the bullet over time might have point. My first thought was headspace, but same issue in 3 guns, nah. Then I got on the small primer/ large primer pocket bandwagon. Still on that one, also. Good luck. Look forward to the solution.
Did you weigh only one powder charge? Is this the only box left of this batch (besides the close one you tried)? Would an out of spec bullet spike pressure? From this side of the screen, the flattening does not look extreme. Given that you got flow around the primer, it seems that there's some kind of mismatch between the primer and the pocket, but that doesn't explain the bulge that you're seeing, unless the problem is with soft brass, which could also explain a "stretched" pocket. Have you tried depriming any fired cases to see how loose they are?
Many have already suggested that bullet depth may be an issue. Others have mentioned primer pocket expansion/loose primers and set primers. These are all possible causes to be sure. When you disassembled your cartridge, did you notice an acrid smell? This would indicate that your powder is decomposing, which could cause overpressure. Another aspect to consider is galling. Is it possible that the dissimilar metals between your jacketed bullets (copper alloy) and your cartridge case (brass alloy) are in essence welding themselves? Others have already mentioned too great of a crimp and still others have mentioned bullet diameter. I would suggest case wall thickness at the mouth of the case. I don't do anything with 44 mag, but I have had issues with my French MAS36. Perhaps not well known, but the MAS36 firing pin is a bit long and has a tendency to pierce softer primers such as the Winchester Large Rifle primers. I only mention this as an illustration that primers do vary considerably in performance and construction. My solution was to either grind down the firing pin (something I had no interest in doing) or in my case, switching to CCI number 34 military spec primers. No more pierced primers. Have I had blown primers, oh yeah. Almost always due to worn out brass. Once the primer pockets stretch, it's pretty much game over for the case. Heavy loads will always shorten case life and often firearm life as well. Gavin, as you are an experienced handloader, nothing I have stated is news to you. So, what I would check is as follows: Case length. Wall thickness. Compare water volume of cases. Check primer pocket expansion. Check bullet diameter & weight. Verify cartridge OAL. Try same powder & charge from different lot. Pull bullets with collet puller to get an idea of how much effort required to pull bullets (a simple way to evaluate crimp and possible galling). Open another cartridge a smell powder to evaluate possible possible powder breakdown. Just my 2 cents worth.
@@Ultimatereloader I certainly agree with the out of spec primer pockets. I am concerned about the bulged case you mentioned in the video. Blowing gas past the primer, ie. Stretched pockets will not cause case bulging. That is clearly too much pressure occurring at the initial pressure spike. You may be looking at two issues. Your powder is burning too fast, your bullet isn't moving fast enough, or something is impeding bullet travel. You also stated that muzzle velocity was lower than expected. I really think something is impeding the bullet and causing it to not move fast enough to keep chamber pressure down. But if this is happening in all three revolvers, then you obviously have an issue with your cartridges. Verify your bullet diameter. That's about the best I can come up with at this time. Good luck on your quest and be very careful with these loads. Bad things happen fast with overpressure!
Assuming u haven't switched dies I'd suspect lot to lot inconsistency with components. Check the cases, bullets powder, primers ect. that has happened to me especially if the lots are bought a year or more apart they are varied more with certain lots occasionally. It can be exaggerated depending on certain weather conditions, of cource, making the problem exponentially worse.
1. Check your scale calibration. Also, put what you are weighing in the center, not on the edge... makes a difference.. round or specially square base scale. 2. Check your primer pocket dimensions, make sure they are in tolerance. 3. Dont know how, and probably too late, but could have had some over powered primers, and my reasoning for that is because your powder charge seemed correct, as your velocities were down. If you have any more of those primers, same batch, "I doubt it" weigh them one for one. If you have to, and you are serious, break all of the loads down, measure those things for tolerance. Oh, and if you break them down... measure the primer Dia. against the pocket... Im leaning towards the primers...
Looks like the previous comments have covered most bases. However, there is something to note that I do not see. Powder batches. Although the only pierced or sooty primer leaks I've ever seen were my own 223, every load manual I own talks about the great pains powder manufacturers go through to keep batches identical even though it says to work up again every time a new batch is used, for safety sake when using max or close to max loads. I've loaded for that s&w titanium this year, but I used w296 and cci with no issues. Is h110 temp sensitive? Hodgdon.com does not say. It does though say 'Large pistol primer', so maybe those winchesters are a bit too hot? I would reduce a pulled charge by .73 grains (to get to the 23 grain starting load) and try it out with a cci primer. Stay safe my friend.
@@KJV1611AV no way! Good to know. Thanks for sharing that with me. Just so I can know for myself, instead of answering when asked, that someone told me, how do you KNOW they are the same? I want to KNOW. Thanks again.
@@KJV1611AV I apologize that I came across sarcastic. I assure you I am quite the opposite. The more I know, the better I can be. Thanks to you, I now know more. I had a feeling it is as you said, but wanted to ask anyway. I know that they are made in the same factory, and under the same mother company. I have not found on the manufacturers website what you claim, hence my asking as well. Mr. Gears sooty primers mystery intrigued me, and I offered what I thought may assist in solving the unknown. Knowing that the powders are same now, I have to laugh as I read my comment, as it sounds kind of silly with the exception of using cci primers. Seriously, thanks for telling me.
Over the course of three years, jacketed bullets can sort of "weld" themselves to brass cases. It is not especially consistent, but it does happen. If it does happen, you can have massive pressure spikes. This is just one of the reasons you should not acquire somebody else's reloads and actually shoot them. You should also shoot reloads within a short period of time.
I see it was solved but before i watch that im going to add my suspect. The internal volume of the casr may be smaller sending pressures up. Measured some magtech fired cases and they where 3cc lower than estimated spec in GRT.
Iv never seen this before . Butt could it be over sized primer pockets ?? Just throwing that out there and try reloading the casings that has the blackness around the primer and see if it does it again please let us know what you figure out
Update: This was solved! See: ruclips.net/video/-8AcVm3bHAI/видео.html
Winchester Primer is undersized . Try loading with a cci primer . Or primer pocket worn out .. also could be too much crimp on the bullet .
Ricky Racine agreed! I had the same issue with Winchester rifle primers. They are undersized and loose in the pocket. I was getting scoring on my bolt face due to gas escaping around the primer. CCI primers solved the issue.
That makes sense to me. I don't have experience with that primer or caliber, but the logic is sound.
I'd guess not enough and some rounds are getting setback
I guess you're an email subscriber then? @kyle @ricky
Did you ever solve the issue? It seems the consensus is to switch to CCI primers.
Move the powder into a new cartridge.
Take the old cartridge and pour new powder.
Longshot, but have you checked the diameter of the pulled bullets? Maybe it's possible that you got a bad batch that are slightly oversized?
I would agree with this. You should check everything; oversize primer pockets, oversize flash holes. The packaging for that batch of powder, and primers is probably long gone so it would be impossible to check the lot numbers for those with hodgdon and Winchester for recalls.
Yep!; Agree with Mac. Since there's no case-stickin', I'd suggest to mike bullets & slug both bores & chamber throats...🤔
Agree! XTP bullets are already larger than normal jacketed .44 cal bullets. I've seen more than 1 lot that had some variations in diameter that almost mic'ed at .431" as opposed to the advertised .430".
I'm going with out of spec primer pocket, could be enlarged due to multiple reloading, I do note, after seveal reloads of the same case, the primers do seat more easily..
I agree. Good point.
I ran into this exact problem 30 years with H110 in my S&W 58 in .41 Magnum. Had the same cratered primers, split cases, etc. Weighed each load, no problem. Finally, if I remember correctly, it was announced that the burn rate too fast for certain batches. I suggest trusting the pressure indications, back off two grains, and see if your pressure indications don’t lessen or disappear.
You didnt say the cases were sticking on ejection. Thats an early sign of over pressure. Therefore I think you have a primer issue. Loose pockets or something.
Possible dirty primer pockets? Gas seems to be exiting around the primer.
Gavin, i was having the same issue with a similar loading. Switched to CCI Mag primers, and the issue went away. With Win primers the crimp on the bullet exceeded the ability of the winchester primers to stay seated in the pocket causing the flattening and leakage.
Have you checked your primer pocket dimensions against new brass
I was just about to type the same thing
@@senavicente it's about the only thing I could think of besides the powder he mentioned
Switch to cci primers. Winchesters are notoriously soft and possibly slightly undersized.
Me too, plus it's easier to seat chrome plated primers than plane ones.
@@Oldhogleg They're just nickel plated, not chrome.
@@cawpin LOL, brain fart!
I would agree. Federal are also good.
Remington & Winchester use to be much better than they are today.
CCI has had some issues at times with SR & LR but have been fine lately. Federal has proven to be quite good for our family for over 25 years.
I was going to recommend getting rid of everything in the shop and buying everything brand new... JK
I would think loose primer pockets... or if the primer pocket is cut excessively deep the primer will allow some gas to escape around it before it flattens and seals.
I would also check the over all length of those rounds. Measure using an ogive tool as well as just oal and compare it to similar rounds from your other box of loads. Maybe the round is seated deeper creating a compressed load. Another thing to look at is the volume of the cases. You can measure the volume using water. If that particular batch of brass is thicker it will have a lower volume leading to increased pressure. Would love to know what you find.
A rare possibility is the “welding” of the bullet to the case mouth. To test this, seat the bullet on these loads several thousands deeper and fire. If the over pressure signs disappear it could be this entity or over crimping. What a great hobby. Always things in work out.
Drop half a grain. H-110 has a 1 grain window between min and max load with a 240 grain bullet. H-110 is also temp sensitive. Try a cci standard primer. Lights off H-110 just fine in 44 mag, and you will have a lower SD than with mag primers, and better accuracy.
Had the same problem with cantamination from my brass. Case lube or moisture from wet tumble. Never found out which it was I just made sure my brass was dried well and only light lube on the outside. Problem went away.
Hope you figure it out.
Over size primer pockets would be my guess .
What bullets are you using? What about your oal? What crimp did you use?
Heavy crimp with cast bullets that are seated deep will all cause pressure spikes.
Did you size your case before reloading? Measure length with micrometer? And then cut case down to size. I still believe is that the crimping pressure used varied crimping bullet. Or you may be starting to compress powder if that close to maximum load, slower burn building pressure in case before bullet or projectile leaves the case.
I think at this point I would look at bullet seating depth (consistency of your seating die).
Then, I would check the primer pocket circumference consistency (could primers be loose) & primer pocket depth. Since it’s .44 Mag & your probably not swaging or cutting the pocket, so this may be a long shot....Looking forward to the cause.
I know Winchester had a batch of large rifle primers where the temperature on the primer cup was too hard and it was causing fracturing and gas leaking making it look like the round was way over pressure but it wasn't. In fact I believe they had a recall about this.
Thanks, I'll look into that!
I think you are right. I remember seeing something about that not too long ago about a Winchester Primer Recall. I cannot remember where or when. lol
I just looked on the Winchester website and nothing is listed for their Primers. So it might have been last year or the year before. But I do remember seeing something on a couple of the Hunting/Shooting programs on TV and a couple of shooting/hunting websites not too long ago. It might have been last year around this time. You could check with Winchester about it.
I might check the case capacity of the brass. Looking for variance from case to case. Also the primer deformity can result from bullet set-back. Lastly, when I loaded 44mag back in the day I had to mindful of the roll crimp in the bullets cannelure, if in fact yours has them. I had a tendency to WAY over crimp in the groove. And yeah, some rounds felt a little "spiky". Good luck man !!
I agree with others on Winchester primers. It may seem odd but I have had experience loading for and shooting a primer actuated rifle. We used Winchester primers because they are slightly under sized so they move well in the primer pocket. This is great for primer actuated but terrible for normal rifles. I have actually had Winchester pistol primers completely blow out of 7.62x25 tokarev case when fired from an open bolt ppsh41. Bad news and jam city
Did you check COLto make sure bullet isn't seated too deeply? I agree with other comments that it would be worth trying a different primer, paying attention to fit when you press it in.
I would say It's the Winchester primers. I had the same problem with my 357. I had to load at a lower charge in the manual with H110 to prevent cratering and flattening of the primers.
Magman44.JH Me too. I also tried those primers with Unique. I had pressure spikes that were 200fps higher than average.
I switched from "H110" to "Lit'l gun" powder for my magnum pistol loads two decades ago for my 50AE and 440 COR-BON because it seemed more stable to me at the time. And the powder charge VS velocity/pressure is identical.
"And the powder charge VS velocity/pressure is identical."
Are you trying to claim that H110 charges and LilGun charges are the same for a given cartridge and projectile? Because that is not in any way true. They might be close because they are close in burn rate, but they aren't the same.
@@cawpin I didn't say they were the same, I said they were identical. And that's my personal experience; didn't base it off of heresy.
@@Oldhogleg You may be getting similar velocities, but they are not identical and neither are the pressures. The powders are very close to each other so you may not see velocity variations out of pistol length barrels. But suggesting that you can use identical charges for two different powders is dangerous and irresponsible advise to people who may read this.
@@cawpin It wasn't me that advised the substitution, it was a published publication I read two decades ago. Plus I chronograph all my handloads anyway. And always look for signs of over pressure regardless. Why are you being neurotic?
having worked at lake city for 30 years i would suggest to you that you take a blackened primer and one that is not and have a chemical analysis done on the two primers to see if one may have been hotter than the other mixes do vary minutely from time to time and could cause this problem all though it should have been caught it may not always be caught
I use the same load in my Deerfield carbine. After maybe 4 or 5 reloads the primers start to leak from worn out pockets. I always thought it was caused by the semiauto action... the Deerfield is hard on brass if you can find them. I use the same brass, powder charge and bullet, but cci primer.
Tumbling brass in media can can contaminate powder and or brass especially if you add something to the media. In the case of brass contamination you can get "bullet weld". I don't tumble brass any more,
I just had boiling water, little dish soap, the brass in a closed container and shake it up for a couple of minutes and then rise well and oven dry. Since the powder has a slightly different color, this would indicate some kind of contamination possibly. I have experienced premature primer pocket expansion loading 224 Valkyrie using Starline brass. Let us know if you solve the issue.
might check the case capacity of the starline brass. Their 308 is a little closer to 7.62x51 than other brands of 308, could be the same with the 44 mag brass.
Thanks for sharing. Temperature has a lot influence when reloading. what was the outside temperature when you shot these rounds? The brass appears to be showing over pressure and i suspect if you shoot this load in cooler temperatures you should not see the same result. Recommended down loading this a 1/2 grain or two for summer loads.
Use CCI primers as the fit a little tighter in the pocket and may seal better. I have seen some loose pockets although rare in Starline brass...
I usually load Blue Dot 16.2 grains behind my 240 grain bullets for best accuracy... 1375 fps from the 8 3/8 S&W 29
I got the same surprise with 2.5" S/W629 but worst in super 14 T/C with 200 gr Gold Dot. I was using sealed 8 lb jugs. Accurate but in Super 14 you could tell higher rate of recoil. Stored in air-condition room with alot of other new materials. First time and I suspect primers. Change to federal primers and same power. Tried other primer but from the other end of a 5000 case all fine.
Only had 3 boxes of 100 that gave the scary over pressure. Chrono readings were 214 fps faster than normal. Rest of case no problem and first time this has happened since 1979. Loaded several hundred of thousands of rounds. Could be worst and no pressure problem if shot in below 26 degrees. Or if it's so cold the bullets stick to your tongue...lol.
Something I read somewhere Winchester primers have been known to elongate the primer pockets so I don’t know if that could be partly the issue i only load 357 magnum with h110 never had that issue but I also use federal magnum primers
Another subscriber just mentioned that, something I'll look into!
I was technically first 😂
i use 34gr h110 for .50AE. i switched from cci magnum large pistol to just regular cci large pistol No. 300 and that seems to be keeping the case expansion down. those magnum primers, i feel, should be used under 90%case fill, they are hot. i have never seen gas creep out of the primer pocket and i basically load proofing rounds for .50.
Try shooting in a colder environment and see if that changes anything. Apparently some powders are more temp sensitive than others.
I had this issue with 45 Colt in a SAA copy(Uberti). I was using starline brass also which turned out to be the problem. After I determined there were no dimensional problems I switched from Winchester primers to CCI. Didn't help. Then switched to Winchester brass and no more problem. The starline primer pockets were oversize.
How was the case extraction did the brass seem sticky?
I have noticed differences in the feel when seating primers in my 44 mag, star line brass, cci primers were nice and tight then I used federal and they seemed a looser fit put this together with that h110 max powder charge you could have back pressure leakage around the primer pocket. Just a thought?
Gavin I have seen this what I realized is the primer pocket was shot it was blew out. I noticed it on rifle brass that I was reloading to failure with soft loads. Basically what I seen was the brass was fine in every way except for the primer pocket. When seating the primer they were kinda lose compared to the others in the group. What ended up happening is as I pulled the blackened primer cases the rest in the group would fail in the next firing
Had that problem with old reloads. You need to set the die lower and break the seal. Was told by a gun smith that possible corrosion between cooper and brass.
I load a lot of .44 magnum for my 6" S&W 629 & Big Boy Henry. Generally do not load on the hot end of power weight. Any possible seating depth or crimping issues? How do you clean your primer pockets? And could the primer pockets with the primers being used not seal as well as they should? Great videos by the way.
I run the same load with no problems.. Thanks for the heads up .. I will be looking more carefully
Make sure the crimp is holding, and the bullet isn't moving back, compressing the powder.
That would be true for a semi auto, but this is a revolver. Unless he is using a hammer to insert the cases into the cylinder. There should be no pressure on the bullet to cause it to shift deeper into the case.
@@jamespierson9312recoil alone can cause bullet setback, it can happen in heavy recoiling rifles such as the. 458 Winchester magnum, and because these revolvers are lighter weight, they will have even more recoil.
If the crimp is light, the bullet will jump forward in revolvers.
Winchester primers are usually a smaller diameter than other brands. I’ve seen the blackening with large rifle Winchester primers
OK, now I need to measure the diameter of the primers- good think I have a micrometer that measures accurate to 0.0001" :)
I agree with those that have said Go to CCI primers ! Never had problems with them. The wins are soft. It could also be worn out brass. Shooting Max charges will ruin the brass quickly. Even expensive Star line brass!
I really enjoy your content. Just started really getting into your vids. Therefore I am a year behind.
I have been shooting & reloading 44 mag since 1985. I have been hunting deer with 44 handgun & rifle since 1992(I think:93?). I have shot literally thousands of 44 through S&W 29/629, Ruger Blackhawk & Redhawk. H110 & W296 have always been my preferred powders.
23-25gr. under 240s. When XTP was introduced, I adopted it for deer. Always effective. I haven't seen this.
We bought brass bulk(500-1000)
Starline is a thicker case wall.
I have seen split Remington nickel from reloading too many times(brittle). We had poor Remington primers poking holes at firing pin. Back off to 23.3 or 23.5.
May have a case volume issue.
I'd change the variable components in different rounds, while tracking which chamber each one its shot from. You'll narrow down the odd variable.
I have never had that type of result from any load. I obviously looks like gas is leaking past/around the primer. I would take careful measurements of everything that can be measured from a fired case, and compare with a new case. Including primer dimensions, primer pocket, weights, etc. Is it possible to send a sample of loaded powder to Hodgdon for chemical analysis? It obviously has to be either a mechanical or chemical issue. Good Luck!
use standard Magnum primer and do a small burn rate sample from new can of powder and what you loaded thanks gavin 👍 be careful
Good idea!
@@Ultimatereloader I use power pistol it's a good one
Without extensive measurements of the subject cases one cannot say for sure, but it appears that you may have some over length cases.
Over length cases might press against the chamber forcing cone and prevent the cylinder from closing prior to charging with powder and seating of bullets. However, if you crimp the case heavily, as you should with H110, the cartridge may appear to chamber correctly. When the cartridge is fired the bullet pinches the case mouth against the forcing cone walls causing a great spike in pressure due to the interference fit. It does not take much interference to cause this effect, and since it appears to be happening with just a few cases out of the box I would think this has a good possibility. Some new brass comes with varying over all length, and needs to be checked prior to loading.
2 things I have seen black primer pockets and it turns out bad brass also try a different brand of primers to see if it does it if not then the primers you have are magnum primer labeled wrong that’s had happened
Gavin, Is it always the same chamber in the cylinder?
I noticed it was two cases in our of six , so it could well be two of the cylinders are not the exact same diameter as the other four cylinders .
But he also has the same problem in multiple guns....
Seating depth ? Primer pockets ? That's all I've got I think you covered everything else. Case capacity is an issue with rifle could it be possible with handgun?
too much crimp as well, I've run into that with autos.
@@remiel3315 yes I forgot to much crimp can cause pressure
Reloaded 44 Mag for handgun metalic silhouette matches in the 90's. Obviously full house loads. Tried Blue Dot, Unique, WW296, H110 and others. CCI primers, mostly R-P brass. Hornady 240 FN FMJ. Had acceptable results, but the WW296 gave highest mv, most precise, least perceived recoil.
I'd recommend checking primer pockets w/guage pin, mic your primers. Interference fit required, but I forget how much. I know it's tedious, but big sample size is worth it. Good luck.
BTW, I never experienced any flash through, ever.
check the case diameter with bullet seated, could be the brass thickness.
Do to Winchester primers being on the small size and if you reloaded the brass a few time, with ball power like h100 it can work its way into the primer pocket itself and when the gun is discharge not only are you igniting the primer but a few grains of power in turn causing over pressure
Take note of which chambers in the revolver the are showing the issue. Could be a timing issue. If it is always on the same Chambers the revolver may be slightly out of timing and the extra pressure is caused by the bullet just be a couple thousands out of alignment with the barrel forcing cone. This would definitely lead to a change in pressure from one chamber to the next. I hope this helps and problem solved.
Years ago I had same problem however that went away when I backed down my loads until !9.5 grains and it stopped. I was told to hot load for long barreled pistols!
How old are primers? Sounds to me difference in speed of burn or crimp on bullet.
I use the same load, except I use the magnum primers and no problems, I would measure the case head to see if the primers are not seating properly or a bad batch of undersized primers that fit to loosely or the powder mix is off from the start, I hope that you find out the issues of your problems. Also, the speer manual shows a load of 24.5 grains for the 240 grain bullet or a possible over crimp pushing the pressures to high, back down load and work up slowly I wish you the best of luck to isolate your malfunction.
Perhaps the primer pockets are looser due to excessive cleaning causing less friction to hold the primers in tight? micrometer? Im very new to reloading so i probably sound like an idiot.
You dont sound like an idiot, your mind went down the right track. I have seen primer pockets hogged out by going at it too aggressively with tools!
Had your ammo sat in the sun in your car? I got some very high velocities today, versus the same loads chronographed at -28 this winter. 400 fps variation at over 100 f.
use Federal or cci mag primers with that loading.ive always had pressure problems with winchester primers . stopped using them 20 years ago
It might not be be the right answer, but I think switching to lilgun powder with cci or federal mag pistol primers primers might fix your problem. I like lilgun much better than H110 across the board.... but that’s just an opinion.
If I remember correctly Smith's always have tight forcing cones check the bullet dia. To the cone size
Did you work up the load by starting 10% below listed maximum and then increase by 1 or 2 tenths of a grain, watching for pressure signs? Or did you jump right to the maximum load listed? Did you use exactly the same components listed in the loading manual? Sometimes Starline brass can be a little heavier than other brands and this can raise pressure signs a little sooner while working up. My suggestion is to use data listed in the loading manual of the bullet manufacturer and always work up. If you change to a different lot of powder, always work up. And when you get within 5% of a listed maximum load, it is absolutely imperative that you start weighing each individual powder charge.
Back in the day Elmer Kieth would only use max loads with new brass. Also today with the rush to crank out brass fast they may have slipped up on the heat treatment of the brass. Hope you know who Kieth was, if not read him, especially if you load to max.
I'm guessing excess case lube got inside, and when it was charged with powder became contaminated, and when fired the burn rate was altered, causing excess pressure. Is that even possible?
I don't recall H110 being position sensitive, but maybe? I would focus on the cases primarily; especially hardness, capacity, and maybe even rim thickness. I have had this happen when I loaded my typical M1 Garand load for commercial cases into some surplus cases that I may have over-annealed slightly. Blown and black ringed primers in 6/8 cases.
My favorite handloading for 44 mag has always been the 180 grain hollow point with 28 and a half grains of h110, however I have loaded that at 29, 30 grains which is Max load. However I got such great consistency and accuracy out of my very first load which was it 28 and a half I generally stuck with that.
How many times has that brass been Reloaded. Check the timer flash hole on a new cartridge against the flash hole diameter on the cartridges that seem to be failing. Even a few thought of an inch increase in the size of the primer flash hole can lead you more to detonation of the powder charge than to ignition of the powder charge. Also check the primer flash hold from lot-to-lot of your cartridges. Back in the early 90s Winchester had inadvertently started weed dressing their primer flash hole punch. Unbeknownst to them, the primer punch had a cone-shaped to it and they had gotten from about a .072 flash whole almost to a point where it was .092. We found that out this locally when a police officer who is carrying a Browning hi-power, blew his gun up. And that is a rather substantial piece of work to do to blow up a Browning hi-power. My gunsmith started doing research and found part of this issue that some of the ammo that Winchester was making for the military was also making its way into General use because they were manufacturing these particular lots of ammo. Preface this this was the same time frame when the Berettas that they had recently purchased we're blowing up in people's hands in injuring people with the slide coming apart and hitting people in their face. Turns out that they were getting chamber pressure somewhere in the vicinity of 42000 copper units of pressure. They had clearly gotten to a point where they were detonating the cartridge instead of igniting the powder charge.
That's the primary issue that comes to mind I think you may have reloaded these shells enough that it has expanded the base enough where the primer flash hole itself may have increased in size, something to keep an eye on. I'd also like to know that Starline brass is usually very good brass, a little bit on the thin side and in its original form is a bit on the soft side as well those are all good things in General, but the fact that it is thinner at the base is not great for 44 mag use when you are reloading a number of times.
One other thing I just thought of, I almost always Harry for 44 mag Ruger Super Blackhawk. That has a much longer jump between the cartridge and the forcing cone and lands than a double action revolver of any type. That may also add to your chamber pressures because it doesn't have the long bullet jump. If you look at a fire projectile from a single action revolver and looked at how the bullets kids on the lands before it engages them in relation to a double action revolver where the bullet isn't going nearly as fast. Remember, that bullet in a single action revolver is leaving the cylinder at close to 1,200 feet per second. I've seen test done on a firearm the headaches Barrel removed and with the Winchester 240 grain Factory load it produced a velocity of 1150 feet per second. If you walk that back to the size of a double action revolver, you're not getting the speed of the blood up so much but your pressures are considerably higher and they're still Rising at a much higher rate in that double action cylinder when the bullet has to be forced into the lands than in a single action gun. That could be a couple of thousand if not several thousand pounds more pressure in your chamber pressure and a double action revolver than in a single action.
1) Oversize primer recess on the cartridge or undersize Winchester primers, or a combination of both...?
2) Also, check the headspace between the cylinder and forcing cone, make sure there is no excessive run out + run some factory ammunition for comparison
3) Check each of the cartridge cylinders for any signs of crud or leading
I think #1 of your suggestions is worth looking at! Ruled out 2,3 due to same symptoms in three S&W revolvers...
Did you double check bullet weight?
If it’s not loose primer pockets, I would guess it’s either bullet setback during recoil, or possibly cylinder throat(s) that are too tight.
Only time I’ve ever had that issue with flattened primers and/or gas blow-by from primer has been a load that was too hot.
I’ve had nasty horrible results with CCI primers doing things just like this so I’ve switched away from them years ago. I only use WLP now for all large pistol primer needs.
Try reloading the powder and bullet and primer combo into some different factory new brass cases maybe try pmc or blazer
Running a max pressure load through QuickLoad and looking at the incremental load table output, the +10% burn rate calculation shows a pressure of 44622 psi. This is significantly over the 36000 SAAMI spec. Maybe just a burn rate variation, but it's odd that it's so few of the rounds that are showing the problem.
Check primer pocket diameter differences, primer diameter differences. Could there be variances in crimp strength?
Yeah, that's my next thing!
Projectile weight, right cast size but different grade of metal? What else went into the case or around the bullet?
Primers - Winchesters are notoriously under sized and perhaps on the soft side. A soft primer will differently flatten more. I use the same primers, but shy away from them in my 300 grain 44Mag loads. 24 grains of H110 under a 240 is a 'suggested starting load' LOL
On the Hodgdon website they list a starting load of 23.0 grains and a max load of 24.0 for the 240 grain Bullet
@@bendennis8773 I'm an old fart, close to 70. I have older manuals that were developed prior to modern pressure measurement methods. Are those loads dangerous? Not really. But there isn't any reason to go there and it's not advisable.
I would try to remove the powder and primer and re-prime with a CCI, put the same powder back and try again.
Could it be lose primer pockets?
Million dollar question. Did you work up to these pressures using the same components, or did you just assemble a bunch of cases just below the maximum threshold. There are several variables that change the pressure of a cartridge, such as bullet depth, or wall thickness of the case. Also, have you considered that the pockets might be a little lose. If that's the case, you should try another primer by a different manufacturer. I don't do much reloading myself, but I've found from the little that I do that I don't get maximum load capability sometimes due to signs of pressure.
The one big pressure spike I'd seen is when changing from shooting lead,then say copper jacket or vice versa
Nice video buddy. I primarily reload 500 S&W so I've dealt with magnum reloading inconsistencies. I've found through testing a combination of CCI primers and Hodgdon Lil'Gun provide EXCELLENT magnum cartridge results. I use CCI large rifle magnum primers. Make use your pockets are clean and sized using common tools. Seating depth is CRITICAL. Some of the primer seating tools don't seat properly into magnum cartridges. Try a few different seating tools and measure the seating depth. I've found Lyman e-zee works best with a small piece of electrical tape on the surface of the rod. Otherwise you risk light primer strikes. Been there before. The Lil'Gun powder works great for magnum cartridges at many loads. I reload at 100%, 90%, 85%, and 80%. Lower than 80% causes accuracy issues. Some of my family prefers to shoot the light loads because the 500 is a bit much for some people. Anyway... Ping me back if you want to discuss more. I'm subscribed with notifications and all that too. Thanks for all the videos.
Primers backing out?
Are the cases lubed?
Seen it but mine was over charging of the powder. I took the advice of a friend and it turned out to be wrong. Thankfully it was only 10 rounds for testing and did no damage to the gun.
Did you reload a couple of the original cases, i.e., breakdown the load, reload it, shoot. I believe the folks that mentioned 'welding' of the bullet over time might have point. My first thought was headspace, but same issue in 3 guns, nah. Then I got on the small primer/ large primer pocket bandwagon. Still on that one, also.
Good luck. Look forward to the solution.
Good ideas!
Did you weigh only one powder charge? Is this the only box left of this batch (besides the close one you tried)? Would an out of spec bullet spike pressure? From this side of the screen, the flattening does not look extreme. Given that you got flow around the primer, it seems that there's some kind of mismatch between the primer and the pocket, but that doesn't explain the bulge that you're seeing, unless the problem is with soft brass, which could also explain a "stretched" pocket. Have you tried depriming any fired cases to see how loose they are?
Where did you store the boxes?
Many have already suggested that bullet depth may be an issue. Others have mentioned primer pocket expansion/loose primers and set primers. These are all possible causes to be sure. When you disassembled your cartridge, did you notice an acrid smell? This would indicate that your powder is decomposing, which could cause overpressure. Another aspect to consider is galling. Is it possible that the dissimilar metals between your jacketed bullets (copper alloy) and your cartridge case (brass alloy) are in essence welding themselves? Others have already mentioned too great of a crimp and still others have mentioned bullet diameter. I would suggest case wall thickness at the mouth of the case.
I don't do anything with 44 mag, but I have had issues with my French MAS36. Perhaps not well known, but the MAS36 firing pin is a bit long and has a tendency to pierce softer primers such as the Winchester Large Rifle primers. I only mention this as an illustration that primers do vary considerably in performance and construction. My solution was to either grind down the firing pin (something I had no interest in doing) or in my case, switching to CCI number 34 military spec primers. No more pierced primers. Have I had blown primers, oh yeah. Almost always due to worn out brass. Once the primer pockets stretch, it's pretty much game over for the case. Heavy loads will always shorten case life and often firearm life as well. Gavin, as you are an experienced handloader, nothing I have stated is news to you. So, what I would check is as follows:
Case length.
Wall thickness.
Compare water volume of cases.
Check primer pocket expansion.
Check bullet diameter & weight.
Verify cartridge OAL.
Try same powder & charge from different lot.
Pull bullets with collet puller to get an idea of how much effort required to pull bullets (a simple way to evaluate crimp and possible galling).
Open another cartridge a smell powder to evaluate possible possible powder breakdown.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Prob. not seating depth as I'm seating referencing the Cannelure. I think primer pocket or primers being out of spec may be the deal here.
@@Ultimatereloader I certainly agree with the out of spec primer pockets. I am concerned about the bulged case you mentioned in the video. Blowing gas past the primer, ie. Stretched pockets will not cause case bulging. That is clearly too much pressure occurring at the initial pressure spike. You may be looking at two issues. Your powder is burning too fast, your bullet isn't moving fast enough, or something is impeding bullet travel. You also stated that muzzle velocity was lower than expected. I really think something is impeding the bullet and causing it to not move fast enough to keep chamber pressure down. But if this is happening in all three revolvers, then you obviously have an issue with your cartridges. Verify your bullet diameter. That's about the best I can come up with at this time. Good luck on your quest and be very careful with these loads. Bad things happen fast with overpressure!
Assuming u haven't switched dies I'd suspect lot to lot inconsistency with components. Check the cases, bullets powder, primers ect. that has happened to me especially if the lots are bought a year or more apart they are varied more with certain lots occasionally. It can be exaggerated depending on certain weather conditions, of cource, making the problem exponentially worse.
1. Check your scale calibration. Also, put what you are weighing in the center, not on the edge... makes a difference.. round or specially square base scale. 2. Check your primer pocket dimensions, make sure they are in tolerance. 3. Dont know how, and probably too late, but could have had some over powered primers, and my reasoning for that is because your powder charge seemed correct, as your velocities were down. If you have any more of those primers, same batch, "I doubt it" weigh them one for one. If you have to, and you are serious, break all of the loads down, measure those things for tolerance. Oh, and if you break them down... measure the primer Dia. against the pocket... Im leaning towards the primers...
Looks like the previous comments have covered most bases. However, there is something to note that I do not see. Powder batches. Although the only pierced or sooty primer leaks I've ever seen were my own 223, every load manual I own talks about the great pains powder manufacturers go through to keep batches identical even though it says to work up again every time a new batch is used, for safety sake when using max or close to max loads. I've loaded for that s&w titanium this year, but I used w296 and cci with no issues. Is h110 temp sensitive? Hodgdon.com does not say. It does though say 'Large pistol primer', so maybe those winchesters are a bit too hot? I would reduce a pulled charge by .73 grains (to get to the 23 grain starting load) and try it out with a cci primer. Stay safe my friend.
@@KJV1611AV no way! Good to know. Thanks for sharing that with me. Just so I can know for myself, instead of answering when asked, that someone told me, how do you KNOW they are the same? I want to KNOW. Thanks again.
@@KJV1611AV I apologize that I came across sarcastic. I assure you I am quite the opposite. The more I know, the better I can be. Thanks to you, I now know more. I had a feeling it is as you said, but wanted to ask anyway. I know that they are made in the same factory, and under the same mother company. I have not found on the manufacturers website what you claim, hence my asking as well. Mr. Gears sooty primers mystery intrigued me, and I offered what I thought may assist in solving the unknown. Knowing that the powders are same now, I have to laugh as I read my comment, as it sounds kind of silly with the exception of using cci primers. Seriously, thanks for telling me.
Over the course of three years, jacketed bullets can sort of "weld" themselves to brass cases. It is not especially consistent, but it does happen. If it does happen, you can have massive pressure spikes. This is just one of the reasons you should not acquire somebody else's reloads and actually shoot them. You should also shoot reloads within a short period of time.
Have you been shooting any 44 specials out of your revolvers? This may cause an increase in pressure in the chambers of the cylinder.
I see it was solved but before i watch that im going to add my suspect. The internal volume of the casr may be smaller sending pressures up. Measured some magtech fired cases and they where 3cc lower than estimated spec in GRT.
different brass has different case volume. starline is tuff brass that also means lower case volume.
Question have you seen die for 225 fxt Hornady because my die deformed the tip of bullet
Iv never seen this before . Butt could it be over sized primer pockets ?? Just throwing that out there and try reloading the casings that has the blackness around the primer and see if it does it again please let us know what you figure out
Good call, going to gauge the primer pockets....
Check primer pocket size. Could be oversized.
Hi mate is it possible you've loaded .452/45lc xtps
Good thought, but no :)
In the intro music based on E1M1 from the original doom?