Class 60 - Brilliant but Flawed
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
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One of Britain's most powerful diesel locomotives, the Class 60s promised many great things when they were unveiled during the late 1980s, hoping to see a return to form for the British locomotive building industry as budding private rail operators chose foreign models on the grounds of reliability.
Sadly, the Class 60 would not break this losing streak, and in the first decade of their operation would see so many faults and breakdowns, that the new private freight operator, EWS, would have them replaced en masse by the American Class 66, with a majority of the fleet now languishing in storage across the country, despite only ever seeing around 10 years of sustained work.
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References:
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My only experience of the class 60... right at the tail_end of working on the railways in the UK I caught a ride into Healey Mills for a train I was recrewing there, anyway the locomotive door was lower than anything we had at the time and I whacked my head leaving the cab and ended up flat first on the ballast with a cut forehead... needless to say everyone else found it hilarious.... Thus not a fan of the class 60!
Surely someone who is incapable of judging the height of a door vs their skeleton should not be allowed in the cab of a locomotive without their carer.
@@derektaylor2941 Very true, although in my defence it was around 2am and totally unlit in the cab!!!
@@mjc8281someone who is unsure of how to use a light switch shouldn't....
Joking aside, my post came across as aggressive. It was actually meant in a lighthearted "Leave my bloody class 60s alone." I worked on them when new as an apprentice. They are the very last proper locomotive built for UK use, as far as I am concerned. I do apologise though, sarcasm and humour doesn't transmit well on youtube.
@@derektaylor2941 No apology necessary, I guess it meant less to me because I never operated or trained in it and was gone within 6 months of its introduction.. Honestly never saw many around, I guess this video explains why!
Class 66 had door problems , drivers trapping fingers in them , had to modify them , even part of EWS/ Db driver training was how to get in / out a class 66 !
Ironic that the 60 has been more or less out-survived by at least one of the locos it was designed to replace...the 37 is still in great demand.
The higher speed of the 37 and better route availability has meant that the 37 can fit in paths easier. In the end, a large fleet will always be favoured over a small one and although not as strong, the 66 is faster. The demise of coal meant that fewer locos were needed . Pity though the 60 looked mint in triple grey and sounds better than the ying yings.
Reality: You can't beat a Tractor.
BR Management: but! but! Its old and-
Reality: _You can't beat a Tractor._
I know which one I'd go for on a cold winters night, the 60 every time.
The next loco that BR was set to build would have been a mid range machine to replace 37s and alike, the 60s got rid of the need for expensive double heading on heavy freight workings.
Coaching stock was still in favour at that time so it could have been something around 2500 hp with top speed of around 100 / 110 mph.
It’s because the Class 38 was cancelled in favour of the Class 60; that is why the Class 37s have lasted this long.
To use the old BR phrase, Class Extinct.
When they work, they’re great to drive. Quiet, comfortable and can pull pretty much anything they want. And if you listen to one with the window open, they make a good noise too. I enjoy driving them at any rate.
How does the cab environment compare to the 66?
@@citizenerased1992 The 60s cab is by far better, you can hold a normal conversation in a 60 on full load, in a 66 you need ear protection for notch 5 and above. You cannot travel with the windows open on a 66 because hot air gets drawn in, the list goes on and on.
Love the class 60s absolutely awsome machine they have a face like a 1950s tinplate robot..... a class 60 on tanker duty is a sight to behold on our network.... RIP you wonderful 60s rotting away at Toton Depot 🙏🙏🙏
thats why i like the 60s they have quiet a serious stern look
The 60's looked very futuristic, well they still do in my opinion. I love the smooth slab sided design.
It's such a shame that the UK doesn't have any truly British owned train manufacturing companies of note anymore, but looking at our history of unreliability it's no surprise really. At least we still have factories, even if they're owned by the French, Germans, Spanish and Swiss.
This country does lead the fo
I guess the "Unreliability" tag goes to all the other industries that have been sold off where we don't manufacture anymore.
That's what happens when you privatise everything.
@@shogun2215 But the locos we bought were built by private companies ? So what do you mean?
The final summary is ironic given that DB Cargo have just announced this week that they are withdrawing their remaining Class 60's and re-gearing a handful of Class 66's to provide better haulage capabilities.
I suspect GBRF and DCR will be lining up for the locos. One's which can be returned to mainline will be, and the loco's rotting will be stripped of all working components. The scrap train to Booths of Rotherham might not look as bad that way.
@johnclarke2997 That's if DBC want to sell them, they might see it as selling to competition and shooting themselves in the foot, but they've got a long history messing things up though so you never know.
I can see it all ending badly, DBC have lost a huge amount of work over the last 5/6 years and replacing the 60's with regeared 66's is not going to change anything, they will just continue losing more work.
Yes know about the re-gearing , it will have more torque but won't be able to use it due to the primitive super series traction control , nothing puts the power down to the rail as good as class 60 wheel creep
Think the death of the class 60 is not really the loco itself but the demise of Mirrlees also the the 66 is not without its faults , Parking brake , Alt Slip-rings to name but a few but less than a class 60 had
Much more reliable though. No business can operate effectively if its machinery is not reliable. @@nounoufriend1442
In 1989/90 I worked as a contract design draughtsman on the bogie section at Brush Traction. The workload was Class 60, Channel Shuttle Tri Bo and a Bo-Bo for Morocco. The Class 60 had its problems. The rolling rubber ring for axle location soon failed on the test track at Old Dolby. A guide post design, like HST, was almost ready to go and introduced. The alternator cooling was another huge problem with sheet metal ducting added to vent the hot air thro’ the roof panels. I left when 60019 had just been completed. No prototypes is always risky.
To think that everything will be right right from the first drawing is nothing else than silly
Was the whole project sabotaged by the demand that the first one be delivered in a year?
I was trained on these in late '89 , and worked 'em until 2017. Only ever failed once with them , and then only due to the exceptionally wet early winter of '98. Water had found it's way thru' the roof and into the electronic cubicle at 2 end , and did it's stuff with the electrix. Mind you, that wet season really was something else. Peak Forest looked like a canal outside the messroom , you couldn't see any sign of rails , just a flowing waterway , and the gradient there is around 1 in 90 , not flat . t he fuel road also collapsed into a sinkhole , too. If I coulda had my way, I'd have liked the cab layout of a 66 , for comfort , and the quietness of the 60 , and the ride quality of 'em was/is in another league entirely. Very, very capable machines. 'Does not contain GM ingredients '!
An old and very valued friend of mine was a driver at 'MingMing', 40B in the days of both the class 60's and the new order, the class 66's. Apparently they undertook some trials when the new order '66's arrived and shared the Immingham (MingMing) iron ore trains up Santon Bank into the 'Scunny Steel Works' for unloading. However, apparently, the 66's failed to get a grip on the rails in some trials to get into the steelworks complex but the class 60's, whilst taking their time. Walked it!
I remember these machines with great fondness growing up. With the 59's still a very rare sight at the time.
I remember the 60's being very good machines, very powerful and a fair few of them about. But you just cannot beat the reliability of the 59's. 95% minimum which later on actually turned out to be more like 98% - 99%. With stats like that, you just can't compete. Despite my love for the 60's, they were just outclassed. So I'm really not surprised that EWS went with a modular fleet of 250 x 66's.
Didn't the 60's achieve 95% reliability on acceptance tests, well that's what has been published in books. 95% - 98%, not a lot of difference.
@@EwanGVids maybe, eventually.
Another informative documentary as always. The sad truth is that you simply cannot wait 30-35 years for a new locomotive design to finally deliver on its promise and deliver. Thank heavens that the Class 59 and then the 66 were available "out of the box" (although the Class 70 hasn't done too badly either...) Thanks for the research - appreciated.
The greatest hope I think of the class 60 is if a new power unit, such as whatever they’re putting in the class 99, and new control setup could be fitted. That would mean there’s a lot of existing locomotive frames likely available for cheap, and potentially a solid platform to put into service.
Interesting story. For me all alarm bells were going off when I heard the condition to deliver the first examples within a year. So previous designs fell through on poor availability, and a completely new design is going to solve all that without any time at all to do a form of testing? Any decent engineer can tell you that's not going to work. This why politics and engineering don't go together. Judge a product on its merits and leave politics aside.
But politics always beats science, engineering, morals, Common Sense . . . Shall I go on?
And now the curtains drawn on a fine engine class. They broke the monotony of 66s through Meadowhall, and 60024 was my last at Doncaster during Storm Ciaran.
According to this programme these locos were anything but “fine”, in fact they were complete lemons. Good riddance to unreliable rubbish.
Another informative & entertaining video, Mr MacV.
It's worthy of note that there are around 3 times as many 37s still in service as there are class 60s.
Shame, as the 60s were/are mighty but flawed machines. You summed them up perfectly in your video.
PS: As an ex-pat South Wales Valleys Boy, the shot of a 37 passing Taff Merthyr Colliery (probably en-route from the recently closed Cwmbargoed washery a few miles north of the pit to the also closed Aberthaw power station) at 2.55 was most welcome!
I did a few years on p-way, when a 60 is under load you can hear them miles away even better on a quiet night! I live not far from Toton and walk along the bank often hopefully a few more will make it out alive.
hi, great video. i remember the first class 59 in west london southall as was in southall dept with the GWPG, the new loco was amazing and had a bell on it like the John Wayne style of locos.we could not believe what we were seeing. great video often went to Brush works when working for London transport,[ train wheels etc]
I remember the first time I saw a Class 60, at Benton, near Newcastle. I was totally shocked by just how much of a box on wheels it was.
Now I'm glad to see them on the Robeston tanks, but not for much longer, I suspect.
It's nice hearing them pass (and watching), our house backs onto the railway line in Johnston, a few miles from Robeston ... One hell of a sound!
I was an instructor at the ROTC at South Side Waterloo. 60011 Cader Idris artived at Eastleigh on day, and was used for Driver training. The Mirrilies smoked like hell on start up. Shrouding the town and Eastleigh works in white smoke. However, once warm clear exhaust and unlimited power. The dropler radar did not like the rail infrastructure that much. A good go/no go diagnostic panel was a very good training aid. The the simplistically ease of layout, isolating cocks and PBL braking, with the air flow indicator were a relavation to Davis and Metcalf, Westinghouse vac/air braked stalwarts was a arse clinching moment at times.......
Years ago I had a 60 pull a Cross Country passenger train north from New Street but they kept the crippled 47 on it to provide ETH.I always think that 60's and 92's look very similar and unless you see the top with the electric equipment it can be difficult to tell them apart.
the 92 bodyshell is based on the 60.
Any locomotive design based on the SD40-2 will be hard to beat, the SD40-2 is probably the most reliable and sturdy diesel locomotive ever put on this planet.
Just look at the numbers of SD40-2s still in service in the US 50 years after the first examples were introduced.
Probably the most fuel guzzling too
Thanks for another interesting and well done video, my friend.
I think you'll find the 3 way split of the fleet was 33 kocos to each company, with the extra 1 to Transrail as it was the biggest of the three companies. I managed to drive 93 of then when under EWS (and all the 59s as well) and found them a warm and reliable engine to drive. The ride quality ws superb, like a Mklll coach......
Excellent, detailed, concise presentation on Class 60 history. Well done.
I have a Hornby Class 60 and it is fantastic it run very slow and has no slip it by far one of the best Hornby modern locomotive i have and very reliable. and well up with other modellers.
Totally agree Martin, i love them!
Lovely to see so many of your video shots included.
I was serving my apprenticeship when the 60s were new. I don't recognise the barrage of criticism against these machines. The reason for their prompt demise was simply one of politics and business. The financial incentives offered to these 'private' railway companies (mostly in fact owned or financed by foreign governments) was incredible and Brush could never compete.
EWS- check the papertrail there. The US chucked wheelbarrow fulls of money at them in order to buy US built machines which were, at that point, in the doldrums. Now we have Swiss, Japanese, German and Spanish stock... why? Is it because they are naturally better? No, it's what they can get the best finance deals for.
It was well-known at the time just how unreliable they were and that they had so many warranty claims mounting up, with appalling reliability. It kept on coming up in the railway press at the time.
@@EE12CSVTah, the railway press... Sorry, but teething problems from a brand new class is very different to what you enthusiasts present. In fact, I am utterly sick of rail, bus, aircraft and ship enthusiasts and their bloody opinions.
@@derektaylor2941 You mean like the detailed reports in Modern Railways at the time? It was very well reported, as well as the casualty figures. Teething problems of 100,000 faults over the whole class, some doing no more than 1000 miles of running in a year. That's all rather more than 'teething troubles' of the sort that the 59 and 66 didn't suffer. It does sound like you're defensive of what Brush threw together and struggled to get to work satisfactorily. And why EMD cleaned up.
@@EE12CSVTwell I'm sure a bunch of anoraks know more than British Rail management did then.
It's the same in the industry I'm in now- all the autistic, anorak wearing in-cels know better than we do.
@@derektaylor2941 Ah, the i-word. It looks like I've hit a nerve. I remember quite clearly watching the farce unfold, the lines of 60s being sent back to Brush. I also remember having a discussion with a Brush E+Engineer in 1991 about it, and he wasn't best pleased with the project. Software faults, axle boxes, the circular bearing pads, the engine....
Fantastic documentary. I always thought Tugs were known as Politicians !
Beggars belief the BR decision making, but then again no different to any other industrial / corporate entity in which the accountants wield more influence than the engineers.
My abiding memory is a Colas 60 gliding through Huyton Junction on the Liverpool - Drax Biomass
Just seen one of these today, you could hear the low level thump of the engine a mile away. Son loved it but he's a train mad 18 month old
Very informative video as usual. I know that 60086 is preserved at Wensleydale Railway as it hauled one of if not the last limestone train out of Redmire in the late 90s. I don’t know if it will get restored as I suspect it’s far down the list.
I have seen the Class 60 locomotives out and about especially in Essex on the Great Eastern Main Line. Seen some of them at Colchester, Ipswich, Norwich and at Stratford in East London.
I see a steel hauling class 60 with a cool flame livery at boston docks on my commute, what a machine it is
I see class 60s hanging around Bristol quite often but other than that they're a rare sight
What exactly were the problems though? Ruairidh MacVeigh - despite doing a video that could only be of any interest to nerds and geeks with a close interest in engineering detail - failed to mention remotely what the unreliability problems were.
I hear and see the "Class 60's are unreliable" all the time but as you say no one ever states why.
I've noticed the same face to face or online. Theyre unreliable but no one knows their rating.
I found a book on the class 60 by Edward Gleed in Liverpool library. He said after the 59 showed 95% was possible the contract for the 60 had to match it.
Im a fan of the 60 because of how she shines at heavy loads up an incline in the wet and with coal dust on the rails.
But the 59's and 66s 98-99% reliability is awesome. They took their already thashed out loco design and just made small alterations and sold them round the world. Simple to diagnose and spare parts galore.
Motion history uk railway episode = a good day. Was hoping you would do a class 60 video. Maybe 47 next......
I have seen lots of Class 60 locomotives out and about on the railway lines. The Class 60 locomotive are the best freight locomotives in the UK.
66's are far more reliable and the best locos to run on UK railways . Worked on class 56's 59's, class 60's and 66 from brand new. Did nearly 50 years in the industry. Best to work on were the 47's, loved the 37's and 08's. Favourite loco has to be the Westerns.
Great video. Highly appreciated informative.
Loved driving the old tugs..
The 60 is now a daily sight on the chiltern line ! Its nice to see them now as they to my knowledge never came through here in the past?.
Who would win:
- 40 years of British diesel loco engineering
- One yank throwaway design
The 66s worked 'off the boat' with a tank of fuel in them. The British designers of the 60 pissed around with concept models, replica cabs at trade events, long periods of testing and breaking them... the Class 59s were hard to ignore by comparison.
@@Meddled
Pretty much. The story always amuses me. UK, the country that invented railways, failed so hard at them that currently they have no domestic rail vehicle production - at least none that I am aware of. Although let's be honest - the ruthless capitalism of the US was so efficient at making locomotives that 66es are pretty much everywhere in europe and murdered domestic diesel loco production just about everywhere. There are some single units here and there, but any rail operator, if they need to actually buy some diesels instead of refurbishing the existing ones, they just gobble up some 66es.
@@TryboBike The UK produces a LOT of rail vehicles. By that I mean, we build a lot here. We don't necessarily own the companies or do the design work anymore, but we do construct a lot of them. There are Alstom, Siemens, CAF and Stadler factories here. Regarding 66s, there are currently 186 in continental Europe, which is admittedly more than I realised, but it's got quite a way to go before overtaking the Alstom Traxx series (over 2500 in service) or even the Siemens Vectron (over 500 in service).
@@mdhazeldine Majority of traxxes and vectrons are electric though. There are like a 100 or so diesel traxxes made. As for vectrons - I think that most are dual mode, not pure diesels as well.
Granted - there is an argument to be made that europe having mostly electrified network promotes electric locos. In that light there being almost 200 66es apart from those in the UK is kind of impressive. The design is over 20 years old at this moment
Sadly in this day and age the " disposable engineering" has prevailed, accountants cannot get their head around old school engineering where you pull things apart and measure bits to decide what needs replacing or machining . They only work with you take it to piece's , that lot goes in the bin at great expense and those bit get replaced, if it breaks we claim it back from the supplier ,that is why car cost so much to re pair these day's .
Excellent film once again.
I did some of the testing on them at Mickleover and Old Dalby. The Class 60 actually came about due to Foster Yeoman ordering their own Class 59 locomotives to haul their trains due to the BR Class 37's and 56's not being up to the job. Foster Yeoman trains required 3x Class 37's or 2x Class 56's yet only 1x Class 59 would be needed for each trainload. BR asked the government to fund 100 Class 59's for their own fleet, the government agreed to the request BUT with the proviso that the locomotives were built in the UK and not tendered out to General Motors. Therefore, BR had to come up with their own interpretation of the Class 59.
The main teething troubles with the Class 60's involved the Doppler Radar controlled speedometer sensors which primarily controlled the slow speed. Any water in the four foot would reflect a bogus signal, as too would going over coal discharge chutes at power stations.
There was also a problem with the computer power control on the main line, whereby when travelling downhill, the computer would not let the driver demand full power and would only give full power halfway up the next incline after the train weight had dragged the speed down. So, it wasn't possible to get up to full speed. These problems were eventually ironed out but additionally the deep windscreens caused sleeper flutter to the driver and my suggestion of black strips at the bottom of the windscreens fell on deaf ears. I always drove them with my bag laid along the bottom of the windscreen at the bottom of my line of sight..
The radar is crucial the the power control on class 60 think lot of initial power problem's were due to the software though , then there was suspension issues (o rings) sandbox bolts . Rode them during initial trials , great loco when all ok quite , ride nice , we had on light engine back from Leeds up to nearly 80 mph on ECML ( before limited to 60 mph and Qtron ) . Interesting about the deep windscreen must be an issue as lots of drivers put bag in gap between desk and windscreen , now I know why . Even though older the traction control is far better than a 66 , often got failed with power issues , when all the driver needed to do was isolate auto sand (switch is wrongly labelled imo ) as it isolates most of wheel creep and will get you back home
Great Britain, home of the railways. Made some decent steam locos but the diesel fleet was almost always found wanting. The US and Canada showed 'em how it's done.
Whereas the Swiss showed you how it was done... 😜🤣
How did the Swiss show the Americans anything? America still has the best freight rail system in the world and more powerful diesel locomotives than the Europeans
True but the Swiss do have some powerful electric trains for their iron ore and gradients, think he is on about them. would love to see them american locos doing the austrailia iron ore run too!@@andrewreynolds4949
Shame the US can't show Russia and China how its done, maybe because they have the guts to tell the USA where to go!
@@EwanGVids Russia doesn't have much to brag about, their indigenous rail equipment manufacturing industry cratered after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Meanwhile China is driving itself into bankruptcy overbuilding high speed networks with a rather poor safety record
Thanks for an informative piece of work.
Yankee here: we have the world’s largest rail network and we use it almost exclusively for freight. Our trains are much bigger than yours and our couplers much stronger. Our rail system is and always has been private, so companies with poor build quality get weeded out. We were always going to have a huge competitive advantage building heavy freight locomotives. Be proud that you made it as far as you did.
Agreed. I mean, look how soon CIE in Eire jumped to EMD after buying British. They didn't feel constrained by loyalty to keep buying British junk that BR had to. Foster Yeoman knew just how good EMD were through their experience of their yard switcher at Merehead.
It's a shame you Yanks can't boss China and Russia about, they have the balls to tell you lot where to go!
You may scoff at our railways but they are yet another Great British invention that others are in envy of, just like concord and the Harrier jump jet, all ideas that came from here.
Yes you locos and trains are bigger but then so is your country, we are somewhat limited to what the Victorian's have left us with in the way of bridges tunnels and viaducts which to the best part still fit the bill, we have the original widest, flattest brick arch bridge in the world , it still carries trains over the river at Maidstone but at twice the speed and weight it first did.
We did have the first train to travel at 150 MPH on normal track, all other high speed trains have direct links to it's lead, we have the fastest diesel hauled train in the world and it still is the fastest yours are a little way off yet I believe .
Your couplings may well be stronger but have a passion for coming apart possibly causing some of the many disastrous derailments you have on a more frequent basis .
Your locos have a very unhealthy appetite for fuel and lube oil , and leave the train crew deaf at the end of a shift. British built ones will do twice the work on half the fuel and not burn half the lube oil from the sump, and last longer than 5 years between major engine rebuilds ,
@EwanGVids that's cute, you'll find both are frequent fliers of American locomotive designs. Modern examples are Russia purchasing SD70ACes, and China with the HXN5 (ES60AC)
@@thetrainshop Whatever, USA is a country with no history whatsoever, most hated country in the world
Thank you Rory 👌🏽
Now reading the Wikipedia article it seems that Thatcher decided it must be an entirely British loco and then it was all done in a bit of a rush. Perhaps it's a pity they couldn't see what would happen to the coal and steel industries then requiring heavy traction...
Let's not forget the class 20s what are still going strong 50 years later.
And 37s some 60 years later.
Age has little bearing on a great design.
It’s because the Class 38 was cancelled in favour of the Class 60; that is why the Class 37s have lasted this long.
I’m a retired American railroader. My final job was working for a European rolling stock manufacturer of mainline passenger stock. It was a good job but sometimes I had to step back and look at it all; How could it be that a country that neither invented the railway (England) nor perfected the stainless steel carriage (USA) comes to be the leader in this field?
Another American in a RUclips comment replied he didn't like to see his British Railfan Brethren beating themselves up!
I was like every country has the things they did well at. America has been a very large industrial country with lots of natural resources to boot for a long time. Stands to reason your loco builders were trying to out evolve each other some time ago on reliability and pulling power and then later exported. I read a book on the class 60 and it had to meet its contract of 95% reliability in the end. She has a far larger manual for parts and repairs and is complex. Still her wheel creep control is excellent. 66s do most heavy haul but on steep inclines in poor railhead conditions a 60 gets the job done and is defo cheaper than 2x other locos.
This is so tragic...
the 58s, now that was tragic.
what exactly were the faults with these units? The engine? (supply can be outsourced to a reliable manufacturer like PACAR), was it the traction motors(Germans make excellent ones)? Why weren't the failure components analyzed and remedied?
Overambitious targets that resulted in a crap design. They failed due to poor management like the Class 58, though the 'Bones' were superior designs because they were modular, the 60s didn't really have anything going for them.
The sad thing is that I have recently read that the final DB 60s that are still operational have been stopped due to high engine hours
Their hours are surely lower than the 66s though. The EMD 710 is basically a more reliable unit as many US EMDs show.
@domhnallmorris oh yeah, true. Again another reason to bring back the 60
They are due a major overhaul every 20,000 hours. The super 60 programme finally gave them this and more from vandalism, rust, ect. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think they will get a 2nd overhaul for a third lease of life.
I still see them regularly working up to Lynemouth and Drax with GBRf. Such a shame if they had ironed the problems out 60s could have been in production instead of 66s.
Saw one leaving lynemouth this morning, quite a distinctive noise but not a patch of the class 56 spool up
@@simonn2045I normally dont play favourites but the 60 is mine. Cant argue with the 56 thrash though. Every now and then they double head the log train to chirk. Can hear them for ages after they've passed.😂😂
I recall without checking, the class 60 had the highest tractive effort figures on UK rail until the class 70 arrived which was very similar in performance. Alas reliability and not performance is the main concern on railways.
You can have both. The 9F steam locomotive was. We've ended up going backwards instead of forwards.
2 lads and Warrington positively asked a driver getting off the log train did he like the 70s. Nah don't like them. these have the better engine but the 60s have got more pulling power. They have a wheel creep control system that works from 0mph instead of 5 or 8 ect. every axle is individually controlled to wheel slip slightly rather than one axle spins too much and all are powered back. Tractive effort is a guide calculated from HP, gearing and wheel diameter. Wheel creep control can give a 1/3 to a 1/2 more pulling power.
@alstonofalltrades3142 I've seen similar comments online from Colas divers, most said the 60 edged it regarding traction control, mental to think that considering the 60's are 20 years older than the 70's
Working a 60 on a Liverpool to Cottam 36 HAA we were unexpectedly stopped at Collyhurst Street on the climb out of Manchester Victoria. The signalman was about to summon a banker but I decided to try to restart alone. The loco chugged its way up the remainder of the bank passing Miles Platting at 8 mph
@@philipgreaves5425 Ive seen them climb up out of liverpool docks on their own and in the wet. Seen 60s bank 60s and get them up in half the time.
There was alot of talk for a year that the fleet would be all 60s to take the biomass up Miles Platting instead of a massive detour around south cheshire. Got the truth a while back though off a GBRF driver. Oh the 60s can do it but we ran a test and the couplings were at their limit.
Like 162 very nice video, greetings from Asturias 🚂👍👋
Drove them when new straight from Loughborough. Problematic is the perfect word for them. Prefer a regeared class 66 for doing the same job. When at Freightliner I worked the 66/6 on some pretty heavy trains, they were fine.
From my understanding of the Class 60 situation. The impatient and somewhat narrow minded attitude of BR unwilling to trial and implement American technology led to the Class 60's having these flaws and no prototype being made to trial and fix the errors before making the whole fleet. I strongly feel that in my gut that Brush and GE should have collaborated on making the Class 60 using the technology that was at the time new in the Dash 8-40C along with the super adhesion traction motors for heavy haulage and had the GE parts been used such as the traction motors, that could of allowed electro dynamic braking and the 7FDL16 power units to be used for the power would have made the Class 60 better than the Class 59 right off the bat, had GE been involved with the Class 60 project. Personally I don't think it should really matter where the better technology comes from as long as it makes a better product. Had I been in a position of power to do this. If I was in EWS, I would have got in touch with GE and I would collaborated with them to do the GE rebuild program with Brush to practically have 100 GE Dash 8's in a Class 60 bodyshell to fit the UK loading gauge. The Class 66's would see off the other life expired locomotives but all 100 rebuilt Class 60's would have a top speed of 74mph and increased horsepower to 4000hp as per the Dash 8 which means more availability to other freight duties besides heavy haul. Most drivers I have spoken to love driving these Class 60's. Perhaps something in the future like a Class 60 MMC (Major Model Change) could come out in the future.
That's about the size of it, and from all the press reports at the time, but we appear to have a claimed BR management in the comments who claims to have not witnessed any of these problems
@@EE12CSVT I agree mate. In all honesty, I do prefer British made locomotives but when another country has better technology that can be used, then why not utilise it fully and make our own version based on it. Or in case of the would be GE Class 60 concept. Reach out to GE to buy the parts and assemble them in Loughborough. Bombardier did this with the Blue Tiger locomotives for Pakistan, Germany and Malaysia that was more or less a Dash 9 in a European/Asian style bodyshell.
these videos make me so happy thank you
The class 66 does not have wheel creep ! they have super series, nothing like the far superior Brush / BR traction control that the 60s have.
Excellent review of this flawed but 'Fab' loco....
Good documentary and analysis. I would draw a distinction between the UK and GB though, the latter being more appropriate when talking about the rail network in England, Scotland and Wales
Maybe some point could you do a video on the class 92?
Best loco the railways ever had, High maintenance but have to be looked after. Great to drive quite and smooth, a far cry from the hiddious class 59/66s.
Not even close.
Yes, if you had to drive a 59/66 or a 60, the 60 would win every time!! Rolls Royce V Lada comes to mind!!!
@@IainDavies-z2l there are more than 3 classes of locomotive in the UK. The 20s, 37s and 47s all show the 60s were a disappointment. And BR screwed over the potential of the 58s. The 60s and 66s are piggybacking off the cab and modular successful design of the 58s, and 58s were more reliable, but none of that mattered when BR are their own worst enemies.
Class 60s are like Teslas all right in theory but not in practice.
We have SO much incompetence in our management/design department/leadership in our country over the past 5 decades!
It is no wonder why we hardly produce things any more!
Absolute disgrace! Saw a lot of it first hand having been in the military/nhs/railways [train driver] now thankfully retired!
Could you make a video explaining the history of the GE Class 70's?
Incase he doesnt make a video, one of them had a fate similar to this one.
m.ruclips.net/video/OvyIrsZ7Zhs/видео.html
In a nutshell, these are affectively the diesel version of the 9fs.
good old tugs :)
So the Class 60 had more power but lost due to overall reliability.
The 60's are in this state due to EWS, they purposely ran them into the ground so they could bring in their cheap crappy 66's. The 60's are brilliant if maintained properly. But like anything, if you don't maintain it properly it won't work properly.
Hardly a fair comparison, think you will find the 60s have slightly less horsepower than a 59 but they develop a higher tractive effort (pull ) from a standing start due to better control of how the motors and suspension work to let it put the power down to the rail.
The best description of it all might be that through the use of very clever electricery it stretches the envelope of what is really possible to achieve .
With loco's it all comes down to tractive effort, horsepower is not a direct indicator of how much it can "start" or pull.
Great video. Thanks for sharing. Liked and Subbed! Cheers, Andy
Flawed ? Hardly, when looked after by Brush engineers they were on point, their construction was rushed due to government meddling ( no surprise there), once in EWS's hands they were doomed as the American owned company wanted to flood the market with the awful 66, subsequently the 60's were run into the ground with extended exam intervals etc and the wrong engine oil being used.... failures rose (obviously) so the nay sayers could then rub their hands together with glee, Yeoman should never have been allowed to buy the foreign built 59's because once they turned up the rot could really set in, the amount of brown envelopes flying around at the time much have been amazing
Oh dear, someone really is bitter. The 59 was and is a fat superior product that Railfreight managers wanted to get plenty of their own, and showed just how embarrassingly bad the BREL crap really was. You've rose tinted spectacles when it comes to the 60. They weren't rushed into production, it had been on the cards for years and Brush had a detailed design since a long time. They still couldn't get it to behave long after introduction and I imagine Railfreight management resented being lumbered with it while they cast their eyes enviously at Yeoman and ARC. Yeoman just wanted something that worked. BR couldn't supply it, so after years of experience with their EMD yard switcher, they went to EMD for a heavy haul loco because British industry couldn't build anything remotely suitable, and even the dedicated BR fleet of 'quality British workmanship' kept on keeling over.
The British loco industry brought all this in itself through complacency and not examining international competitors' products closely enough or at all.
Not bitter, just championing home grown products, unlike yourself but that's only to be expected these days,
@@31144 What you're clearly doing here is championing home grown products so bad that their customers didn't want, and in the case of Railfreight had imposed on them against their will, when they wanted to buy UK-built Class 59 but had to make do with the Brush and Mirrlees junk they were given. I'm assuming you watched the video about how appallingly unreliable the 60s were?
Of course they were flawed! Overpowered means nothing if its not reliable.
The tragedy is we allowed the fantastic modular 58s 'Bones' to fall by the wayside, all because of the 59/60/66 contract/construction debacle.
@@abloogywoogywoo Hardly. The radiator fiasco, and they slipped like crazy on anything other than completely dry rail.
Any plans for an episode on the ubiquitous BR Class 08 (and other models of Gronk.....filer material)?
Wasn’t part of the reason for ordering a batch of 66s related to the emerging European emissions standards? I.e. if it was left late, it would be non-compliant with new requirements, so perhaps better value to purchase more before the new requirements are enforced.
I don't think that was the main reason for larger numbers, it might have been more of we have only got one chance to flood the European market so fill ya boots while you can.
A shrood move by EMD at that time to take out all European building to safeguard their future market, thankfully the power unit design has reached the end of the development route so there shouldn't be any more built. They tried a few tweaks here and there with 66 / 9s ( low emission version ) but it couldn't reach future EU emission requirements .
Anything coming in the future will probably be CAT. Powered.
Seeing,pictures of class 60s, lying idle,makes me wonder at the purchasing policy of companies, except yeoman and Hanson, they were sidelined before they ended there useful life.
59 and 66 unbeatable 💪🏻 Americans know how to make a good diesel electric engines.
They are nicknamed tugs
It was all political. BR wanted to buy the Class 59 but Maggie Thatcher at the time said BR could have the money for 100 locomotives but they MUST be British. And so enter the Class 60.
Fast forward a few years to EWS and privatisation. The xenophobic EWS were hell bent on replacing inherited locomotives with Class 59's, especially the Class 60's which were barely 5 years old. 60098 (the landmark 1,000th Brush locomotive) was the first to go and heavily stripped so that it would never run again. In the event, the Class 59's had been "upgraded" to what became the Class 66 but it became apparent that a 66 was never as good as a 59 ... nor even a 60.
Partly correct. It was more of a fear of upsetting the unions.
The main difference between the 59 and 66 is the prime mover I believe: the 59 has the older 16-cylinder 645, and the 66 has the newer 12-cylinder 710.
@@andrewreynolds4949 Yes, plus different electronics, creep control, gearing, and bogies
The 59 was the EMD answer to ARC s problem at the time,
The 60 was the BR answer to it's problem at the time, to get rid of the need for double heading on heavy trains.
The 66 was the EWS / EMD answer to their problems at the time, EWS had just spent 250 million to buy the large part of BR rail freight ,the American banks etc wanted to see a return on the money the had loaned out for this to happen hence the order for 250 loco's at roughly 1.25 million each back to the US.
Add on the extras for all the spare parts they are going to use in the future and it becomes a nice.little earner.
The 59 is more different to a 66 than you may appreciate ,the power unit has 16 cyl instead of 12, the 59 uses a conventional mechanical control system instead of the electronic fuel control of the 66.The 59 has the larger alternator and traction motors, (comparable to a class 60) the 66 has smaller alternators and motors to shed weight and make room for the larger fuel tank that EWS wanted, this has never been used as intended because the whole loco + full tank is to heavy causing fuel load to be max of 6400 Lts. The bogies on the 66 are a steering axle design from EMD to try to reduce wheel wear which hasn't had good results in the UK , if anything it accelerates the wheel wear. The bogie on the 59s is a more conventional design.
@@moelSiabod14334 The biggest problem EWS had at the time was poor locomotive reliability. The American part of EWS was very familiar with the EMD SD40-2, possibly the most reliable locomotive model of the time, so a derivative with an already proven track record in the UK was an excellent solution.
It could have been an excellent solution for BR as well, but the class 60 came about because of concerns about domestic manufacturing. I think a better solution all around would have been if EMD happened to buy out one of the UK manufacturers at the time as part of a deal to license 59/66 production.
Drove many members of this class in my years at Toton & only failed with one ! They were good engines & by eck they could pull !!!
I daresay if the railways hadn't been privatised the Class 60 would have seen much more widespread use.
I very much doubt it. Sooner or later BR would've thrown in the towel.
not really, we on the maintenance side were getting hammered trying to keep worn out 56's running, then the class 60's came, they needed lots of tlc. The class 66's were around 20% more reliable. Those units have now done more than a million miles each. Its simple, cost and reliability and keeping the customer happy is the key. The class 60's struggled to do that for various reasons.
Why did the UK stop developing your own locomotives/trains? Finland still develops everything within Finland with Siemens. The locomotives/trains cars with cabins, sleep cabins(Finland is f****ing big), restaurants etc. with a 2 story design are considered the best in the world.
Also - Finland redid the whole network in the 60s/70s of rails so that the rails are welded. In Finland the temperature variation is -40C to +60C. Why does the UK have those 'separated' train tracks that give that God Awful sound?
We've had continuously welded rail here since the 1930s in places, pal. The vast majority of our lines are CWR. Only a tiny amount is still jointed.
Because the UK now is just a joke. Not just trains that we have stopped manufacturing but a loads of other stuff too. A lot of our industry has been sold off, defunct and moved abroad.
The Manufacturer has to do an exceptional job st inspections for quality control.
In addition to the class 66 EWS planned to keep the 58s and 60s. But when new business failed to appear 58s and 6os were sidelined.
plenty 58s that were stored in france including 58001 are scrapped now
The 58's and 60's were ran into the ground on purpose so they could bring in the 66's
The only class 60 I’d seen in the last 10 years were a sorry looking DB red one hauling the Boston docks steel train. Even that has been replaced by a 66 now
Lets be clear, EWS would not follow or pay for the maintenance regime set out for the class 60 locomotives and then said they were not reliable when they failed due to it. ( You expect a couple of years of teething problems with any new fleet before it settles down like the 70s )
They wanted a pig ignorant thrash it and park it design which is how they ended up with 66s. The irony being they based it all off the Class 59s which have always been on a strict maintenance and overhaul regime to cope with the hard life on the quarry circuit which returned a high availability figure. The 60 was designed to be the pinnacle of its job, but was expected to be run by these companies with less maintenance than a milk float. The ignorance of private operators was their downfall - but note they went out of their way to make sure nobody else got hold of them!!
Good stuff 👍👍👍
Oh you beautiful human
Railfreight managers wanted to buy a fleet of Class 59, but naturally they were refused from doing so. Then look at what happened in the late 90s.
Also normally pulling drax car!
In hindsight, it would probably been better to have allowed GEC to build kits of the 59 in the UK. Such a decision could have led to the EWS order for 250 66s also being awarded to GEC, thus keeping expertise and jobs in the UK.
It's likely the 66 would've appeared much sooner in that case
I don’t see them as ‘flawed’, just a rush job. Could have built hundreds.
the arrival of the class 59 should have been a wake up call, but instead we continued to purchase inferior locomotives like the Class 60 for another 12 years, only to realise what a disaster that decision had been. And guess what, we eventually got over 500 updated versions of the 59 known as the 66, and reliability and productivity increased across the network.
For some reason 66s are hated by many 'rail enthusiasts' for their ubiquity (weirdly 47s, 08s, 37s are not hated for the same reason), yet ubiquity of reliable, productive machines is what a rail network needs. The only reason we had diversity of designs in the late 50s, 60s and 70s was because of batch orders in modernisation plan seeking to pin down the holy grail of a single type 3, type 4 and type 5. Ubiquity was always the goal, diversity of design might be interesting to bystanders, but is inefficient and not something to be celebrated.
I see Trostre, Llanelli here, the large rolls of tin plated steel. 09:42
Correction--the class 59 came from EMD, not GE.
Yes, but GEC put in a joint bid with EMD to build a newer version of the 59 at Crewe.
He said General Motors, of which EMD was a division at the time.
I do believe there a preservation group owns a Class 60.
At Wensleydale
Class 08,37,50,55 and 60 are the best.
So what were the modifications made by DB - mainly to the creep processor? IOW all that unreliability - maybe a 2nd detail vid to go over it?
I'm curious about that too. Hope a second vid is a possibility to cover those and other issues addressed also.
DB didn't modify anything on the 60 they only built back to the original speck, some bits were actually worse / cheaper and they came back to bite. The only mods they have had in more recent time's are a more up to date turbo and an electrical fuel control ( govner ) the need for either being accountant led rather than engineering nesserties, both items worked well but required more frequent tlc than they would pay for.
My takeaway from watching this and similar videos is we are damn lucky the 66 came along when it did
spot on, they saved rail freight in effect. I did 50 years in the industry
4:44 😂😂😂😂😂
Praying in progress
instead of spraying in progress.
One wonders whether an updated and oil fired 2-8-2 version of the BR 9F would not have been a better investment?
Apparently there where plans in the pipeline for a standard 2 8 2 something between a 9F and a Britannia possibly with caprotti valves to use what had been learned from the standard class 5s and Duke of Gloucester ,not sure if it would have gone as far as oil fired as coal was the fuel of choice at the time.
One was built in more recent times as a 5 inch gauge live steam model ( using standard valve gear ) and it went on to win IMLEC three years consecutively, so there was some proof of concept .
We can only dream of what might have been
Are you serious?
@@domhnallmorris Lead to believe it was given serious thought at the time but lots of plans where made and changed back then so it might have happened if steam had continued on, it was the government of the day that went for modernizing the railways with the move over towards diesels so who knows what could have come about.
Look how they pick and choose today, back then somebody was looking forward to what might be required, now we can waist billions looking and dreaming about things like HS2 and cancel the plan overnight.
@@moelSiabod14334 what is your source?
@@domhnallmorris
In the 1950s a steam locomotive cost about a fifth of that of a diesel electric locomotive of the same power; given a decent sized production run, this advantage is almost certainly better today. The steam locomotive can be expected to last 60 years.
The additional capital cost of your diesel is quickly won back in lower running costs and better availability, but if it is out of service due to defects or lack of work, then the interest charges rack up with no income to compensate. If expensive remedial action is needed, or the locomotives have a short life, then they were a bad investment.
Rail traffic is highly variable due to daily and seasonal peaks, as well as the economic cycle. Expensive machines need to be kept running all the time so as to cover their capital costs. The less efficient but inexpensive machine will be better value if it is going to be laid up for long periods due to lack of work.
This is a very old issue. When the first diesels arrived, operators were delighted with the high availability of some of the better types But when the fleets were all diesel, there was not enough work for all of them. The present philosophy is to avoid having spare capacity as it is too expensive. We then end up with complex fares and traffic being priced off.
The design of the 60 was never going to be superior to the 59, flat out. The 59 had about 60 years worth of teething issues sorted out with the proven engine in rail service. The bogie design was a lightened version of what had been in service for 20 years in heavy haul freight in the US, and the traction system had been refined after teething issues experienced on the GP50/SD50 types. The modularity of the construction for the 59 was something that came from experience, whereas BR had only just done it for the first time on the 58, and it didn't do well.
Apthough they were destined for failure, you cant help but love a 'tug'