The Sailing experience you two have combined with creative talent and sound engineering make the two of you invaluable in the Sailing World. Thank you! You two are a World Treasure.
I had an 18 volt Dewalt battery ignite while using it, it was fully charged, I had the tool in my hand when it began smoking then full on ignition and I threw it into the snow where it continued to “melt down” but I’m convinced that deep snow is maybe the best solution to a thermal meltdown as the snow appeared to smother it and shut it down quickly. Lesson being, let’s all go back to basics!
I have used Dewalt for years back before they had lithium batteries, and I am interested in the conditions or what you were doing at the time. For example, had the battery come straight off the charger and then been used in a saw or grinder. I have never had any trouble, but I do let batteries cool down after heavy use and running flat before charging and after charging I let them cool down before I use them. I just find this extends the life of the batteries. Cheers, Rustie
Great video! I would add, if you have to have lipo’s onboard. For ebikes, scooters or drones etc.. you should charge or discharge the batteries to their storage voltage. Make a fire box to store them, so you can sleep. Just my opinion 😊
My rule of thumb is that I'll allow Li-Ion on my boat if it's small enough to throw overboard. The largest I have is for my ebike. The bike folds and goes deep into the space under the cockpit. The battery I remove and keep out where I can access and watch it.
Two years ago, the battery of an e-bike caught fire in our neighbouring harbour. It was on deck and nobody was on board. An employee noticed it and lifted the locked bike over the railing. He radioed a colleague who came and cut the lock. He told me about the incident because my boat had just burnt down after a Li-Ion battery exploded while charging. I had taken my eyes off it for about 10 seconds, there was a loud bang and the boat was full of smoke. I tried to throw the burning battery overboard but the other cells exploded. Because of the smoke, I couldn't see where I could and couldn't touch the battery. The heat also made it impossible for me to get close to the burning battery. So I took my four-year-old son, who was at the front of the boat, climbed through the hatch with him and jumped into the water. If such a large battery 1 kwh starts to burn, the only thing you can do is to run away or in my case to swim.
@@matzke089 LiFePO4 isn't really an option for ebikes. So the question is how and where can you store an ebike battery so as to be able to toss it overboard at need?
@@jeffdege4786 Maybe on a Barbecue mounted on the Handrail? I don't know, but I know it's an illusion to think that you can throw it overboard when it's inside of a boat.
Important video Clark. I live in an RV and fire is not quite as dangerous it's still very dangerous. I agree that LiFePo is the only battery for the house batteries but, like you, I also have power tools with lithium batteries. Maybe I should keep them in my truck and not in the RV. Do old school NiCad batteries have similar issues? Keep the good stuff coming.
Would like to have tours of Dominic and other marinas (slip and mooring rentals), and how to check into Dominic, costs, where to go and to shop and dine etc..
I converted my Catalina 27 Sailboat from Diesel to electric motor and using two 48 volt, 96 amp, batteries in parallel for propulsion (10kw motor from ElectricYacht). Batteries are Lithium-Ion Phosphate from Dakota Lithium. I also have a 12 volt , 100 amp, Dakota Lithium house battery which receives its charge from the 48 volt battery bank. So far, so good after one season. Love the peace and quiet and cleanliness of the electric motor. So, all-in on Lithium Phosphate and betting on the various reviews that highlight their safety 🥵.
Great video on an important topic. I just want to emphasize that there is more to battery safety than the battery chemistry. The quality of the cells and the architecture of the battery has a huge impact on the likelyhood and possibly even the consequences of a failing cell/battery. For DIY I totally support your risk assessment and follow the same practices. Thank you for great videos and an inspiring channel.
Great video Clark.I build tiny homes and currently living in one now that I am setting up with Solar. All your videos are extreamly informative, and i often share them were people have questions related to solar and other topics
Airlines train their crews to place as many wet blankets and pillows as possible on top of and around a burning Li device or battery to help control the fire. There is no putting it out (or getting out). I could see dunking towels, blankets and comforters overboard and then using them like that, if you had time. Otherwise, get out. I have a pair of ReLion RB100HP's that are our house bank, and watching your videos gave me some confidence in dealing with the issues those present. I also have a 12 volt Li drill/battery in a compartment that I may relocate due to this video. Thanks Clark.
Thanks for the ongoing wealth of information sharing, Clark! I wanted to give a plug for fire blankets. They're a woven fiberglass and fire resistant material that folds up to the size of one of those microfiber towels Emily was discussing in her recent "hacks" videos about towels and laundry. Anyway, these are about 40 inches square, inexpensive, and a great thing to have aboard to smother, cover, contain, or grab and throw overboard, something that is burning. Would be helpful for any galley fire, flammable liquid fire, and for covering, picking up, and slinging a runaway hand tool battery. It's just another tool that may make a big difference with a fire of almost any sort on a boat and they're small and effective.
Great video.... one miss for boats: shore side get around toys: Electric bicycles, One wheels, e scooters, EUCs. These take 8 to 16 hours to charge and they do burn. The size battery used in an EUC is over an hour of throw it out the window and watch it burn. An ebike battery pack is not small either. so far as I know, none of these have lifepo4 in them. Some companies have tried and then taken them off the market because they can't compete.
No. It's the chemistry that really matters but that's an idea. Prismatic, pouch, cylindrical. I'm afraid except for some discussion about physical confinement I'd just say it doesn't matter
Very important info - thank you. One other thing that people should realize about Lithium Ion and Lithium Polymer batteries; The lithium salts used to make them make lithium battery fires 'self-oxidizing'. In other words, once they ignite, they produce their own oxygen to keep burning, which is one of the things that makes battery fires so hard to put out. Not only do they burn hot, once they are burning they are not going to stop. A fire extinguisher is unlikely to stop a fire. Water is not going to stop a fire. And if you try to move a battery that has ignited, you are likely going to burn yourself badly and also spread the fire further. Just about the only way to dampen a lithium battery fire is to bury it under a large amount of sand/dirt or similar material that will smother it. I build custom lithium ion battery packs all of the time - I am very familiar and comfortable with doing so, and have yet to have any kind of fire or serious accident. But I still have two big bags of sand on my front porch, two more in my back yard, and another two in my garage, bags open and ready to pour, just in case. And I never do finally hookups, testing, or charging anywhere but the concrete floor of my garage.
Yes I've kinda become the battery channel haven't I. I'm trying to get back to a nice mix but I just feel I need to say a bunch of electrical things. Like this one on safety. I just have trouble leaving a job half done.
Thank you. I have recently started to worry about my boat batteries being unattended to for a long time and not knowing the difference and causes of fire
Well said. It's underlined. I have a EB70S (iron phosphate) and the AC50S lithium ion. I'd like to ask a question. I'm not able to charge, with a E09 code showing in both screens. Is there a way to wake up the batteries? Thanks
Tool batteries are generally chained 18650 cells like vapes use. The quality of these batteries is hugely variable. Cheap Chinese 18650 are pretty much portable bombs. You want batteries from Samsung or Panasonic.
As I see it the only way to take advantage of lto is lots of them so their minimum usable voltage is still high enough to meet your needs. Then a buck converter to bring the voltage down and flat. You lose the 15-20 percent in the buck converter and charging can't simply pass through. It really doesn't look good as a whole system to me. I looked into it as I developed the BankManager but LiFePO4 is better by far
I think people are STILL getting confused between Lithium Ion batteries and Lithium Iron phosphate batteries. Maybe we should be using the name Lithium Ferrite phosphate instead of Lithium Iron phosphate ( I think it's a Ferrite? Possibly Ferrous... Sorry I'm not an industrial chemist)
Great video Clark. I’ve been wary of Lithium Batteries after building an electric motor powered Radio Control plane for my father to have some fun with, and it was recommended to only charge up the Lithium Polymer batteries in an explosion proof Bag. 🤔🌟🌟🌟❤️ I’m thinking the 2400 mah battery that’s coming with the 4G LTE Router hotspot should be ok, as long as I keep some cooling airflow over it, though apparently, there is sensitive monitoring of the battery temperature, and if it starts warming up too much, it switches off. Both the models I have coming, are internal aerials only, and I have found one with a coverage checker that indicates a Download Bandwidth in my area of 70 mbs. So it’ll be interesting to see what I actually get with the 150 mbs model (TP Link 7200 for £20 inc postage brand new) and the 300 mbs model (Huawei for £29.99 inc postage for a a grade B refurb- this one may be the most promising one overall as availability looks to be consistent ) .These 4G routers appear to make a lot more sense for a sizeable section of the boating community to me tbh Clark.Best Wishes. Bob.🤔🌟🌟🌟👍❤️
Lithium-titanate (titianium oxide), in a 24-volt configuration, is the only chemistry I would consider safe enough on a boat. Yes, LFP is pretty safe, even very safe, but not when you're miles from shore where a fire breaking out is very much a life or death issue. Too many folks are concerned about making a perfect 12v replacement battery, and LFP does this quite well. I would (and have) built a 24v system, instead, because it keeps your wire size down and Li-Ti makes a nice 24v battery. The only real downside is weight.
@@Clarks-Adventure - The voltage range of Li-Ti is different from, but really no greater than LFP. The individual cell voltages are managed by appropriate BMS settings, like any other with a lithium-ion chemistry. The range of working cell voltage for Li-Ti is barely 1 volt, 1.8 to 2.8, but just like LFP, the majority of charge/discharge occurs in a more narrow range; between 2.0 and 2.4. You can set your BMS to keep the cells within this range. Due to the minimal voltage sag, you can build a 10S pack and use an inverter that handles that slightly lower nominal voltage, or build an 11S pack. Li-Ti is heavier and more expensive, per watt-hour, than LFP, but it's even safer and has far more charge cycles, while being much more tolerant of temperature extremes. This is why Li-Ti is used quite frequently in heavy industrial applications.
Hi there Clark and Jason . LTO cells in a say , 48volt give or take configuration , Would it be weight and space too fit it into a boat or the higher voltage and the discharge rate a system like this ? What would be the pros and cons of 48v compared to 24v ? Thank you for talking on this subject , over the past few years not many people have talked about LTO Cells enough . Cheers
@@elados6954 If you're talking about a "boat" and not a "ship", a 48v LTO battery might be too heavy/bulky, but it is always going to depend on your use cases and your particular vessel.
The Cobra Ultra High Pressure Lance is what is needed to quickly put out a lithium battery fire and it can do so in moments using about 60 gallons of fresh water to extinguish even a full sized EV battery. It's basically an abrasive pressure washer that quickly pierces the battery case and directly injects water into it. For small lithium devices a cooking pot full of water will extinguish them in short time once the water gets into the battery. On a boat with the batteries in hard to access locations it would be very difficult to do anything unless you plumbed in a way to completely fill the cases of the batteries with water with the flip of a switch/valve preferably via an automatically triggered device. It would be nice if battery manufacturers came up with a standard fire port for the battery cases that would allow them to be connected to a central battery fire system or at least to a remotely accessible port that fire fighters could use to directly inject water inside the batteries. Best!
@@junkerzn7312 Per the Swedish Fire Authority and numerous testing authorities globally this is what works. Otherwise its dump the entire vehicle into a steel water tank for total immersion as the other accepted means of quickly neutralizing a thermal runaway battery. This total immersion method is whats currently used after parking garage fires before carting off vehicles with potentially compromised batteries. Be mindful that this nozzle is an abrasive water jet and does not use a bit or pike to pierce the battery case. You are behind the times on the latest fire fighting technology. You should look up how this is implemented and how it has been tested before declaring it doesn't work. Best!
As I understand it, thermal runaway is the chemistry getting hot enough to have the activation energy to get started. Then of course the runaway part does it's thing Same as with paper at "fahrenheit 451"
@@Clarks-Adventure I guess depends where measure "a thing yet". Maybe not consumer products yet, but cells are in proper mass production. Got myself some 18Ah cells to play with a few months ago, getting some 200Ah cells next. Biggest problem is the large voltage swing, meaning it is not easily a drop in replacement. But very resistant to discharge abuse and plenty of cycles. The 18Ah cells are sitting discharged in the cold right now as a test.
I need to get some. But I'm swamped with BankManager Gen3 development just now. Do you have a suggestion of where I can find voltage curves? I'm concerned they will be like LTO. Basically need a buck converter to work in a system but I just haven't researched yet.
@@Clarks-Adventure They are like LTO. Pretty linearly sloped (alas) from 4V to 2V with only a little bit of a plateau on the nominal 3V. Practically, you can take them way lower without damage, but below 2V there is no more real energy. Until available equipment and Installations adjusts for these voltage ranges, you *will* need a DC converter. But if you start with enough cells (like 6 for 12V), it will only need to step down. My plans are: try to buy all user equipment with full 12V/24V (so 10V~32V) range and hack an oversized cheap brandless 24V inverter to not shut off on under voltage (I wish Vicron would make inverters that dynamically allowed the full range, rather than fixed 12V and 24V modes). In other words, still pretty cumbersome. But as a society, we need to get rid of our rare earth metal dependency.
Very informative video, but there is one lithium battery type I wish you had covered. That is the type used in radio controlled cars and planes. If my understanding is correct, they do not contain a BMS and are consequently the most likely to catch fire. I believe e-bike batteries also fall into this category.
I just purchased two new 12v 100ah mini redodo batteries. I will be running these in series for a trolling motor that requires 24v. I'm not charging the system with solar. Whatever charger I will be using will be plugged into a standard USA 120v receptacle. My question is, how do I charge two 12v batteries that a permanently ran in series? What is the proper way to charge the two batteries that I can get the most life out of these LiFePo4 battery?
If you want the most life out of a LiFePO4 you need to charge it to 100% but no more. That means you can't just charge it to a voltage. To my knowledge the BankManager is the only way to do this and it has no problem with 24v. The question is is the expense of a BankManager worth it for such a small battery system?
Could you throw baking soda or a blanket or something on a fire started by a lithium battery to at least contain it??? I've been leery about those power stations when I first learned how flammable Lithium batteries were. However, I bought an Ecoflow power station before hearing that. You've allayed my concerns with your explanations in this video. But I'd still like to know any extra precautions I should take along with what to do in a worst case scenario considering I'm using it inside my home during potential power outages.
The thermal runaway stage (very rare in Lifepo4) is basically unfightable. You could cool it with water but the reaction itself doesn't need air. Kinda a slow explosion. But any approach that fights fire will work with what the battery gets burning. First thing would be the case of course.
Mine says Li-ion NMC. Its a Yeti 1500X.The only kind I can get in Alaska, Any idea what NMC means? I notice most of these like Bluetti won't even ship to Alaska period[air or ground] Same with drones w/batteries. Speaking of fire hazards I had a 1 lb canister of propane develope a rust spot on the bottom. It was in a cabinet with a couple others. I happened to be there[luckily] when it began spraying propane everywhere all the sudden.. I grabbed it quick and threw it out the door. When it rolled on the ground liquid propane was going everywhere .Anybody that has some 1 pounders .Check for rust spots!!
The yeti is the one that burnt and was reported on our Facebook group. Follow the link in the description of this video to see if it looks familiar. NMC is the li-ion (DeWalt) type of battery.
Just left a comment on your video of the Feence 100AH Teardown you posted last year. About the Feence Battery, I know it says Lithium iron battery on the label but are we sure ? I can not find any 20ah cells that say Lithium iron. The ones I can find say Lithium ion, which is not as safe. I could be wrong but would like to know more about those cells. Thank you
I answered your first comment. Yes weight and especially electrical characteristics. Smells like LiFePO4 to me. But maybe I saw what I expected to see, it was a year ago and I no longer have the battery. Watch the video. If you see the voltage go up fast after 14 volts it's most likely LiFePO4.
Hello my 100A have has no BMS I bought two 100A lithium batteries. Two years ago. One has just stopped working properly. It charges up very quick and discharges very quickly. I’ve taken it apart to my surprise there is no BMS in it although the batteries look good quality is this normal have you seen this before? Is it safe for me to carry on using the other one because I presume that one’s got no BMS as well.
The job of a BMS is to keep the cells in their safe range by turning the battery off if necessary. I'd run a BMS. I just bought this one for an upcoming video. I think it's the same as in the Elefast. I liked that one and it's cheap. www.ebay.com/itm/285514790640?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=i0KA53M8RCm&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=3Zp5jgUhScS&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
I had an Apple laptop start to go in a meeting. Black smoke and a melted case. Took it outdoors in a fat hurry, This is apparently n9t a super rare event. Sticking with lead acid for a bit longer.
Agreed 100% 100%. This is why I won't buy an EV. When they have a model with LFP batteries and is a decent price I might since I have solar and LFP battery banks at home so I could drive for free 8 months out of the year (well no paying for charging that is). Never have any lithium on your boat that isn't LFP or the new Sodium versions. I see a guy has car batteries power his motor yacht and no way would I do that.
Standard range teslas have LFP and some other cars. I think/hope eventually LFP will become more popular for EVs. They are all safer than gas or diesel.
@@Clarks-Adventure I'm thinking about using them for my EV motor in the the boat but the price needs to half. They have a C rating of 10 which is more than i could ever use. I'll look into the voltage curve though, maybe they won't be suitable.
Personally speaking , i think the problem is the Lithium itself ! . I had a phone battery begin to bulge on me last year as it happens . It was a Nokia , and at least 8 years old . No smoke , just began to bulge , so the back wouldn't fit properly . Instantly scrapped , though i still have the phone . As for a boat , i wouldn't have one any way near one let alone , an ocean going yacht , like some one else has said , unless i could instantly throw it over the side . I simply don't trust any of them .
The new 48 v e bikes are in the bad category. I have bought battery fire bags for all my lithium battery's, except house and portable There cheap, e bike was 11.00 all in all i have invested maybe 50.00 cheap insurance
the most crucial thing you left out and the most dangerous thing about lithium all types on a boat is SALT salt water if it get anywhere near you battery you need to throw it away ,salt is a super electrolyte ,they are even making salt batteries now ,it those lithium batts are put near bilge space and salt water gets into them salt dries bridges the pos and neg and you have a short out crossed terminal and battery burns they need to be in waterproof boxes
They are in waterproof boxes for the most part And have short circuit protection inside. Really, I think you are over concerned with salt water. I've seen batteries connected to a light bulb still power the light for many hours after the whole boat sank in salt water. It's conductive but nothing like copper.
@@Clarks-Adventure dont underestimate a lithium battery the gets water into the cells i,ve seen them burn underwater they cant be extinguished they just burn out fire departments cant stop them burning it takes thousands more gallons of water to control a thermal runaway on a car and they manufactures have said if they ever get submersed or exposed to salt water the battery is deemed too dangerous to be used again
Rule 3 (of 3) - At all times be paranoid about fire. Rule 1 - The sea stays on the outside. Rule 2 - The people stay on the boat. (at least whilst underway).
WHY ? Meaning why do these batteries burst into flames? The video of a guy's phone for example. After all, he's just sitting at a workstation and all of a sudden smoke is pouring out.
For marketing purpose NMC/NCA (litium ion) batteies solve range anxiety while LFP (LiFePO4) batteries solve safety anxiety. For geopolitics purpose NMC/NCA (litium ion) patents are mostly owned by western enterprises while most LFP (LiFePO4) patents are owned by Chinese. So range vs safety and western vs chinese those are the main bias of all the debates about lithium batteries chemestry. And of course the ICE vs EVs will put their nose in those debates also.
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
"This is how NOT to die." -Clark
Hmmm, perhaps this is important? 🤔
The Sailing experience you two have combined with creative talent and sound engineering make the two of you invaluable in the Sailing World. Thank you! You two are a World Treasure.
I had an 18 volt Dewalt battery ignite while using it, it was fully charged, I had the tool in my hand when it began smoking then full on ignition and I threw it into the snow where it continued to “melt down” but I’m convinced that deep snow is maybe the best solution to a thermal meltdown as the snow appeared to smother it and shut it down quickly. Lesson being, let’s all go back to basics!
I guess you don’t mean the old hand cracking drill🤔
I have used Dewalt for years back before they had lithium batteries, and I am interested in the conditions or what you were doing at the time. For example, had the battery come straight off the charger and then been used in a saw or grinder. I have never had any trouble, but I do let batteries cool down after heavy use and running flat before charging and after charging I let them cool down before I use them. I just find this extends the life of the batteries. Cheers, Rustie
Great video! I would add, if you have to have lipo’s onboard. For ebikes, scooters or drones etc.. you should charge or discharge the batteries to their storage voltage. Make a fire box to store them, so you can sleep. Just my opinion 😊
My rule of thumb is that I'll allow Li-Ion on my boat if it's small enough to throw overboard. The largest I have is for my ebike.
The bike folds and goes deep into the space under the cockpit. The battery I remove and keep out where I can access and watch it.
Two years ago, the battery of an e-bike caught fire in our neighbouring harbour. It was on deck and nobody was on board. An employee noticed it and lifted the locked bike over the railing. He radioed a colleague who came and cut the lock.
He told me about the incident because my boat had just burnt down after a Li-Ion battery exploded while charging.
I had taken my eyes off it for about 10 seconds, there was a loud bang and the boat was full of smoke. I tried to throw the burning battery overboard but the other cells exploded. Because of the smoke, I couldn't see where I could and couldn't touch the battery. The heat also made it impossible for me to get close to the burning battery. So I took my four-year-old son, who was at the front of the boat, climbed through the hatch with him and jumped into the water.
If such a large battery 1 kwh starts to burn, the only thing you can do is to run away or in my case to swim.
@@matzke089 LiFePO4 isn't really an option for ebikes. So the question is how and where can you store an ebike battery so as to be able to toss it overboard at need?
@@jeffdege4786 Maybe on a Barbecue mounted on the Handrail? I don't know, but I know it's an illusion to think that you can throw it overboard when it's inside of a boat.
Important video Clark. I live in an RV and fire is not quite as dangerous it's still very dangerous. I agree that LiFePo is the only battery for the house batteries but, like you, I also have power tools with lithium batteries. Maybe I should keep them in my truck and not in the RV. Do old school NiCad batteries have similar issues? Keep the good stuff coming.
I don't know a lot about nicad but I never heard about thermal runaway until the age of li
I like your battery rating spreadsheet a lot. Thanks for your hard work and for caring about us.
You're welcome Mark
I will be changing how I manage my batteries aboard.
Would like to have tours of Dominic and other marinas (slip and mooring rentals), and how to check into Dominic, costs, where to go and to shop and dine etc..
As always, your videos are direct and easy to understand. Though I'm still not a fan of any of the lithium batteries, yet! Thanks John
I converted my Catalina 27 Sailboat from Diesel to electric motor and using two 48 volt, 96 amp, batteries in parallel for propulsion (10kw motor from ElectricYacht). Batteries are Lithium-Ion Phosphate from Dakota Lithium. I also have a 12 volt , 100 amp, Dakota Lithium house battery which receives its charge from the 48 volt battery bank. So far, so good after one season. Love the peace and quiet and cleanliness of the electric motor. So, all-in on Lithium Phosphate and betting on the various reviews that highlight their safety 🥵.
Great video on an important topic. I just want to emphasize that there is more to battery safety than the battery chemistry. The quality of the cells and the architecture of the battery has a huge impact on the likelyhood and possibly even the consequences of a failing cell/battery. For DIY I totally support your risk assessment and follow the same practices. Thank you for great videos and an inspiring channel.
You are very right.
For example (something I missed in my review) VoltGo batteries have a thermally activated fire extinguisher inside the case.
Great video Clark.I build tiny homes and currently living in one now that I am setting up with Solar. All your videos are extreamly informative, and i often share them were people have questions related to solar and other topics
Thanks.
Have you seen the video emily did on the tiny house she designed and built?
Airlines train their crews to place as many wet blankets and pillows as possible on top of and around a burning Li device or battery to help control the fire. There is no putting it out (or getting out). I could see dunking towels, blankets and comforters overboard and then using them like that, if you had time. Otherwise, get out. I have a pair of ReLion RB100HP's that are our house bank, and watching your videos gave me some confidence in dealing with the issues those present. I also have a 12 volt Li drill/battery in a compartment that I may relocate due to this video. Thanks Clark.
Yep. The water deals with the heat so the rest of the plane doesn't get going.
Thanks for the ongoing wealth of information sharing, Clark!
I wanted to give a plug for fire blankets. They're a woven fiberglass and fire resistant material that folds up to the size of one of those microfiber towels Emily was discussing in her recent "hacks" videos about towels and laundry. Anyway, these are about 40 inches square, inexpensive, and a great thing to have aboard to smother, cover, contain, or grab and throw overboard, something that is burning. Would be helpful for any galley fire, flammable liquid fire, and for covering, picking up, and slinging a runaway hand tool battery. It's just another tool that may make a big difference with a fire of almost any sort on a boat and they're small and effective.
Yeah sounds like a good idea.
But of course I'd never be able to find it if I needed it
Thank you for sharing this information Clark
You're welcome
Great video.... one miss for boats: shore side get around toys: Electric bicycles, One wheels, e scooters, EUCs. These take 8 to 16 hours to charge and they do burn. The size battery used in an EUC is over an hour of throw it out the window and watch it burn. An ebike battery pack is not small either. so far as I know, none of these have lifepo4 in them. Some companies have tried and then taken them off the market because they can't compete.
I always charge my phone in a cast iron pot with a lid.
Thanks Clark.
Wise man
Hi Buddy. Great video. I keep looking for you guys in anchorages. See you out there sometime. Is the water maker filter still going well!
It worked great
You were a lifesaver. Here the growth is so bad we have water delivered. So it's been resting in a pickle bath.
Do you have a video explaining the physical battery types, cylindrical cells vs packs.
No. It's the chemistry that really matters but that's an idea. Prismatic, pouch, cylindrical.
I'm afraid except for some discussion about physical confinement I'd just say it doesn't matter
Very important info - thank you. One other thing that people should realize about Lithium Ion and Lithium Polymer batteries; The lithium salts used to make them make lithium battery fires 'self-oxidizing'. In other words, once they ignite, they produce their own oxygen to keep burning, which is one of the things that makes battery fires so hard to put out. Not only do they burn hot, once they are burning they are not going to stop. A fire extinguisher is unlikely to stop a fire. Water is not going to stop a fire. And if you try to move a battery that has ignited, you are likely going to burn yourself badly and also spread the fire further. Just about the only way to dampen a lithium battery fire is to bury it under a large amount of sand/dirt or similar material that will smother it.
I build custom lithium ion battery packs all of the time - I am very familiar and comfortable with doing so, and have yet to have any kind of fire or serious accident. But I still have two big bags of sand on my front porch, two more in my back yard, and another two in my garage, bags open and ready to pour, just in case. And I never do finally hookups, testing, or charging anywhere but the concrete floor of my garage.
Listen to this guy people
Thanks for the video. I really liked the video when you were talking about sharks walking on a random property. Any more of those coming?
Yes I've kinda become the battery channel haven't I.
I'm trying to get back to a nice mix but I just feel I need to say a bunch of electrical things. Like this one on safety.
I just have trouble leaving a job half done.
Thank you. I have recently started to worry about my boat batteries being unattended to for a long time and not knowing the difference and causes of fire
Well said. It's underlined. I have a EB70S (iron phosphate) and the AC50S lithium ion.
I'd like to ask a question.
I'm not able to charge, with a E09 code showing in both screens.
Is there a way to wake up the batteries?
Thanks
You should contact the manufacturer
Absolutely amazing video. Thank you.
You're very welcome
Tool batteries are generally chained 18650 cells like vapes use. The quality of these batteries is hugely variable. Cheap Chinese 18650 are pretty much portable bombs. You want batteries from Samsung or Panasonic.
Clark, what about LiTiO batteries though lower power density but very long life and even safer than LiFePO4.
Read through the comments. It's been discussed a lot here
Hi Clark . Do you know how safe lithium titanium oxide cells batteries would be on a boat ? I appreciate your videos and knowledge thank you
Li lithium has a strange discharge voltage curve. You would have to run the power through a buck converter to actually be able to use it.
LTO battery used with buck converter ? Thanks for your reply Clark cheers
As I see it the only way to take advantage of lto is lots of them so their minimum usable voltage is still high enough to meet your needs. Then a buck converter to bring the voltage down and flat.
You lose the 15-20 percent in the buck converter and charging can't simply pass through.
It really doesn't look good as a whole system to me. I looked into it as I developed the BankManager but LiFePO4 is better by far
Thank you for that info Clark . Cheers
I think people are STILL getting confused between Lithium Ion batteries and Lithium Iron phosphate batteries. Maybe we should be using the name Lithium Ferrite phosphate instead of Lithium Iron phosphate ( I think it's a Ferrite? Possibly Ferrous... Sorry I'm not an industrial chemist)
lifepo4 is the safest I have heard in a boat? accurate info? don't want to burn down the garage either?
Great video Clark. I’ve been wary of Lithium Batteries after building an electric motor powered Radio Control plane for my father to have some fun with, and it was recommended to only charge up the Lithium Polymer batteries in an explosion proof Bag. 🤔🌟🌟🌟❤️ I’m thinking the 2400 mah battery that’s coming with the 4G LTE Router hotspot should be ok, as long as I keep some cooling airflow over it, though apparently, there is sensitive monitoring of the battery temperature, and if it starts warming up too much, it switches off. Both the models I have coming, are internal aerials only, and I have found one with a coverage checker that indicates a Download Bandwidth in my area of 70 mbs. So it’ll be interesting to see what I actually get with the 150 mbs model (TP Link 7200 for £20 inc postage brand new) and the 300 mbs model (Huawei for £29.99 inc postage for a a grade B refurb- this one may be the most promising one overall as availability looks to be consistent ) .These 4G routers appear to make a lot more sense for a sizeable section of the boating community to me tbh Clark.Best Wishes. Bob.🤔🌟🌟🌟👍❤️
Lithium-titanate (titianium oxide), in a 24-volt configuration, is the only chemistry I would consider safe enough on a boat. Yes, LFP is pretty safe, even very safe, but not when you're miles from shore where a fire breaking out is very much a life or death issue. Too many folks are concerned about making a perfect 12v replacement battery, and LFP does this quite well. I would (and have) built a 24v system, instead, because it keeps your wire size down and Li-Ti makes a nice 24v battery. The only real downside is weight.
How did you address the great change in voltage from full to empty
@@Clarks-Adventure - The voltage range of Li-Ti is different from, but really no greater than LFP. The individual cell voltages are managed by appropriate BMS settings, like any other with a lithium-ion chemistry. The range of working cell voltage for Li-Ti is barely 1 volt, 1.8 to 2.8, but just like LFP, the majority of charge/discharge occurs in a more narrow range; between 2.0 and 2.4. You can set your BMS to keep the cells within this range. Due to the minimal voltage sag, you can build a 10S pack and use an inverter that handles that slightly lower nominal voltage, or build an 11S pack. Li-Ti is heavier and more expensive, per watt-hour, than LFP, but it's even safer and has far more charge cycles, while being much more tolerant of temperature extremes. This is why Li-Ti is used quite frequently in heavy industrial applications.
Hi there Clark and Jason . LTO cells in a say , 48volt give or take configuration , Would it be weight and space too fit it into a boat or the higher voltage and the discharge rate a system like this ? What would be the pros and cons of 48v compared to 24v ? Thank you for talking on this subject , over the past few years not many people have talked about LTO Cells enough . Cheers
@@elados6954 If you're talking about a "boat" and not a "ship", a 48v LTO battery might be too heavy/bulky, but it is always going to depend on your use cases and your particular vessel.
@@jasonbroom7147 thank you Jason for your reply. Cheer
The Cobra Ultra High Pressure Lance is what is needed to quickly put out a lithium battery fire and it can do so in moments using about 60 gallons of fresh water to extinguish even a full sized EV battery. It's basically an abrasive pressure washer that quickly pierces the battery case and directly injects water into it.
For small lithium devices a cooking pot full of water will extinguish them in short time once the water gets into the battery.
On a boat with the batteries in hard to access locations it would be very difficult to do anything unless you plumbed in a way to completely fill the cases of the batteries with water with the flip of a switch/valve preferably via an automatically triggered device.
It would be nice if battery manufacturers came up with a standard fire port for the battery cases that would allow them to be connected to a central battery fire system or at least to a remotely accessible port that fire fighters could use to directly inject water inside the batteries.
Best!
@@junkerzn7312 Per the Swedish Fire Authority and numerous testing authorities globally this is what works. Otherwise its dump the entire vehicle into a steel water tank for total immersion as the other accepted means of quickly neutralizing a thermal runaway battery. This total immersion method is whats currently used after parking garage fires before carting off vehicles with potentially compromised batteries.
Be mindful that this nozzle is an abrasive water jet and does not use a bit or pike to pierce the battery case.
You are behind the times on the latest fire fighting technology. You should look up how this is implemented and how it has been tested before declaring it doesn't work.
Best!
Are the primary hazards during charging (only) or are the problematic batteries (electric drills, etc) unstable when stored, as well?
Fast discharge can be as bad as charging. Brocks boat fire was a device that wasn't being charged.
Points well taken. Tool batteries: IF they decide to burn, how wild is it? Can we set the charger inside a protective enclosure? On foil?
Best I've heard that's easy is a cooking pot
Valuable! ⚡📱
Do we know what CAUSES the battery breakdown and fire? Corrosion? Connections pulling loose? ???
As I understand it, thermal runaway is the chemistry getting hot enough to have the activation energy to get started. Then of course the runaway part does it's thing
Same as with paper at "fahrenheit 451"
No mention of Sodium-Ion?
That's really not a thing yet
Maybe soon but not yet
@@Clarks-Adventure I guess depends where measure "a thing yet". Maybe not consumer products yet, but cells are in proper mass production. Got myself some 18Ah cells to play with a few months ago, getting some 200Ah cells next. Biggest problem is the large voltage swing, meaning it is not easily a drop in replacement. But very resistant to discharge abuse and plenty of cycles. The 18Ah cells are sitting discharged in the cold right now as a test.
I need to get some. But I'm swamped with BankManager Gen3 development just now.
Do you have a suggestion of where I can find voltage curves?
I'm concerned they will be like LTO. Basically need a buck converter to work in a system but I just haven't researched yet.
@@Clarks-Adventure They are like LTO. Pretty linearly sloped (alas) from 4V to 2V with only a little bit of a plateau on the nominal 3V. Practically, you can take them way lower without damage, but below 2V there is no more real energy. Until available equipment and Installations adjusts for these voltage ranges, you *will* need a DC converter. But if you start with enough cells (like 6 for 12V), it will only need to step down. My plans are: try to buy all user equipment with full 12V/24V (so 10V~32V) range and hack an oversized cheap brandless 24V inverter to not shut off on under voltage (I wish Vicron would make inverters that dynamically allowed the full range, rather than fixed 12V and 24V modes). In other words, still pretty cumbersome. But as a society, we need to get rid of our rare earth metal dependency.
Very informative video, but there is one lithium battery type I wish you had covered. That is the type used in radio controlled cars and planes. If my understanding is correct, they do not contain a BMS and are consequently the most likely to catch fire. I believe e-bike batteries also fall into this category.
Yes ebikes based on unprotected cells and similar devices are scary.
That's basically what took Brock's boat out.
But are they more dangerous than the Dewalt battery you referenced?@@Clarks-Adventure
I'd say, hell yes.
The DeWalt has a BMS of sorts. Notice the 4 pins
I just purchased two new 12v 100ah mini redodo batteries. I will be running these in series for a trolling motor that requires 24v. I'm not charging the system with solar. Whatever charger I will be using will be plugged into a standard USA 120v receptacle.
My question is, how do I charge two 12v batteries that a permanently ran in series? What is the proper way to charge the two batteries that I can get the most life out of these LiFePo4 battery?
If you want the most life out of a LiFePO4 you need to charge it to 100% but no more. That means you can't just charge it to a voltage.
To my knowledge the BankManager is the only way to do this and it has no problem with 24v.
The question is is the expense of a BankManager worth it for such a small battery system?
Could you throw baking soda or a blanket or something on a fire started by a lithium battery to at least contain it??? I've been leery about those power stations when I first learned how flammable Lithium batteries were. However, I bought an Ecoflow power station before hearing that. You've allayed my concerns with your explanations in this video. But I'd still like to know any extra precautions I should take along with what to do in a worst case scenario considering I'm using it inside my home during potential power outages.
The thermal runaway stage (very rare in Lifepo4) is basically unfightable. You could cool it with water but the reaction itself doesn't need air. Kinda a slow explosion.
But any approach that fights fire will work with what the battery gets burning. First thing would be the case of course.
Mine says Li-ion NMC. Its a Yeti 1500X.The only kind I can get in Alaska, Any idea what NMC means? I notice most of these like Bluetti won't even ship to Alaska period[air or ground] Same with drones w/batteries. Speaking of fire hazards I had a 1 lb canister of propane develope a rust spot on the bottom. It was in a cabinet with a couple others. I happened to be there[luckily] when it began spraying propane everywhere all the sudden.. I grabbed it quick and threw it out the door. When it rolled on the ground liquid propane was going everywhere .Anybody that has some 1 pounders .Check for rust spots!!
The yeti is the one that burnt and was reported on our Facebook group. Follow the link in the description of this video to see if it looks familiar.
NMC is the li-ion (DeWalt) type of battery.
@@Clarks-AdventureThanks for the info.
Just left a comment on your video of the Feence 100AH Teardown you posted last year. About the Feence Battery, I know it says Lithium iron battery on the label but are we sure ? I can not find any 20ah cells that say Lithium iron. The ones I can find say
Lithium ion, which is not as safe. I could be wrong but would like to know more about those cells. Thank you
Also are there any ways to make sure we are buying Lithium Iron besides the label. ie weight or something? Thank you
I answered your first comment.
Yes weight and especially electrical characteristics.
Smells like LiFePO4 to me. But maybe I saw what I expected to see, it was a year ago and I no longer have the battery.
Watch the video. If you see the voltage go up fast after 14 volts it's most likely LiFePO4.
Are you on a mooring ball or dockside?
Mooring
Are my powertool li-ion batteries going to burn my boat down while stored or do I only need to worry while they're in use/charging?
I think they are way safer when idle
what about laptop batteries?
I like to think they are in the category of well engineered. But they do burn and they carry a lot of energy. Li-ion
Interesting you
dont mention Lithium Titanate chemistry.
Talked about in other comments
Hello my 100A have
has no BMS I bought two 100A lithium batteries. Two years ago. One has just stopped working properly. It charges up very quick and discharges very quickly. I’ve taken it apart to my surprise there is no BMS in it although the batteries look good quality is this normal have you seen this before? Is it safe for me to carry on using the other one because I presume that one’s got no BMS as well.
The job of a BMS is to keep the cells in their safe range by turning the battery off if necessary.
I'd run a BMS. I just bought this one for an upcoming video. I think it's the same as in the Elefast. I liked that one and it's cheap.
www.ebay.com/itm/285514790640?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=i0KA53M8RCm&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=3Zp5jgUhScS&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
I had an Apple laptop start to go in a meeting. Black smoke and a melted case. Took it outdoors in a fat hurry, This is apparently n9t a super rare event. Sticking with lead acid for a bit longer.
Apple is not LiFePO4.
@EmilyAndClark No doubt but people consider it high end and therefore safer so sharing my experience on things that can catch fire!
The cycle rating of a battery is usually to 80%. At 80% there are still years of use.
Agreed 100% 100%. This is why I won't buy an EV. When they have a model with LFP batteries and is a decent price I might since I have solar and LFP battery banks at home so I could drive for free 8 months out of the year (well no paying for charging that is). Never have any lithium on your boat that isn't LFP or the new Sodium versions. I see a guy has car batteries power his motor yacht and no way would I do that.
Standard range teslas have LFP and some other cars. I think/hope eventually LFP will become more popular for EVs. They are all safer than gas or diesel.
Lithium Iron Titanate Batteries are the safest I have found yet. But very bulky and expensive
Yep. Price is coming down.
My concern with them is their voltage curve on discharge.
Sodium-ion is just as safe, and way more environmentally friendly.
@@Clarks-Adventure I'm thinking about using them for my EV motor in the the boat but the price needs to half. They have a C rating of 10 which is more than i could ever use. I'll look into the voltage curve though, maybe they won't be suitable.
@@cybermaus I'm really hopeful about the sodium Ion batteries, they may just be the way to go in the future.
did you refer to the cellphone as a "nokia"? haha
Brilllllliant
Thanks Patrick
Thanks for the video, a lot of talking in circles though.
👍!!!
Personally speaking , i think the problem is the Lithium itself ! .
I had a phone battery begin to bulge on me last year as it happens . It was a Nokia , and at least 8 years old . No smoke , just began to bulge , so the back wouldn't fit properly . Instantly scrapped , though i still have the phone . As for a boat , i wouldn't have one any way near one let alone , an ocean going yacht , like some one else has said , unless i could instantly throw it over the side . I simply don't trust any of them .
The new 48 v e bikes are in the bad category. I have bought battery fire bags for all my lithium battery's, except house and portable There cheap, e bike was 11.00 all in all i have invested maybe 50.00 cheap insurance
the most crucial thing you left out and the most dangerous thing about lithium all types on a boat is SALT salt water if it get anywhere near you battery you need to throw it away ,salt is a super electrolyte ,they are even making salt batteries now ,it those lithium batts are put near bilge space and salt water gets into them salt dries bridges the pos and neg and you have a short out crossed terminal and battery burns they need to be in waterproof boxes
They are in waterproof boxes for the most part
And have short circuit protection inside.
Really, I think you are over concerned with salt water. I've seen batteries connected to a light bulb still power the light for many hours after the whole boat sank in salt water.
It's conductive but nothing like copper.
@@Clarks-Adventure dont underestimate a lithium battery the gets water into the cells i,ve seen them burn underwater they cant be extinguished they just burn out fire departments cant stop them burning it takes thousands more gallons of water to control a thermal runaway on a car and they manufactures have said if they ever get submersed or exposed to salt water the battery is deemed too dangerous to be used again
Rule 3 (of 3) - At all times be paranoid about fire.
Rule 1 - The sea stays on the outside.
Rule 2 - The people stay on the boat. (at least whilst underway).
WHY ? Meaning why do these batteries burst into flames? The video of a guy's phone for example. After all, he's just sitting at a workstation and all of a sudden smoke is pouring out.
If you want to research the chemistry Google Li and thermal run away
For marketing purpose NMC/NCA (litium ion) batteies solve range anxiety while LFP (LiFePO4) batteries solve safety anxiety. For geopolitics purpose NMC/NCA (litium ion) patents are mostly owned by western enterprises while most LFP (LiFePO4) patents are owned by Chinese. So range vs safety and western vs chinese those are the main bias of all the debates about lithium batteries chemestry. And of course the ICE vs EVs will put their nose in those debates also.
We do need to come up with a way to quickly disconnect boat batteries, One that would not corrode, and if disaster happens we can throw it overboard.
So the ocean is your trash bin? 😡😡
@@Wastelander13 Oh I see, it's better to burn down the boat, and have the whole thing become part of your trash bin? :)