Do Not Use Combination Squares Sorta
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- Опубликовано: 6 июн 2024
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If I use a speed square, I mark with a pencil and cut with a panel saw. If I use a try square, I mark with a knife and cut with a back saw. And if I use a combination square, I mark with a piece of chalk, and cut with a chain saw. Or maybe an axe.
Your new house was built with a bunch of combination squares that were tossed around like a Frisbee for years.
House =\= furniture. On our side of the pond those are two separate trades: Tischlerei and Zimmerei.
My Grandgrandfather was both.
Maybe that is the reason why nothing in my house is square. 🙂🙂
Any carpenter worth his salt would never use a combo square...
@@stevenbalas9808 Guess I'm not worth my salt. 🤷♂️
My Starrett has yet to go out of square. I routinely check it with my 1-2-3 setup blocks and I've yet to see it deviate. I also have a 4" Starrett double square that I love and use daily, super accurate haven't had to fix it. I would love to get a proper try square, I might opt for a machinist square because of the materials and precision.
The same for me… i think my starrett is the more precise of all my squares 😂😂
I bought several old starretts on eBay from as old as the 50s and I check them regularly for square and they never needed any adjustment always super accurate. Empire makes horrible combo squares and they were described in the video I'd think you were talking about empire not Starrett
I've used try squares and combination squares, but my favorite is a speed square. I carry a 4" speed square meant for trim carpenters in my shop.
Everything has its place. A combination square is great for construction where precise measurements are not necessary. However, i will never have one on my work bench for fine furniture making for the same reason you mentioned. I don’t trust them to stay square. I do love my architectural drawing squares. Excellent for checking inside corners and for checking my power tools
Yet Paul Sellers makes damn fine furniture using combination squares. I'll bet he used one in that credenza he made for the White House. All though I see your point about those, I bought one cheapish combination square and it wasn't square from the start. Next two (one smaller and one bigger/medium) were Bahco and those are good, so far.
When I recently started woodworking and watched Paul Sellers creating very accurate pieces using a combination square, and since I already had one in a drawer, I used it.
I kept getting frustrated though with things which should have been square not being square so I did the trick of drawing a line, flipping the square and drawing another line only to find out that my combination square isn't square. Admittedly mine is a cheap one (Draper I think) but after realising what the problem was I reverted to using a 7" rafter/speed square and a small metal engineers square and now get much better results.
I still use the combination square but only for rough marking out and for scribing lines along a board at a set distance from the edge.
Yup, I bought one cheap too, it was crap from the start. I'll bet those ones that Mr. Sellers use are from the era when those were GOOD. I mean I've seen some REALLY expensive combination squares, and maybe those will stay square (like those Mr. Sellers use)
File the slot and repeat the test until the flipped lines are perfectly prallel. Now you have a good one!
Thanks@@dekutree64 I've seen that done in some videos but I shouldn't need to. The most common complaint in reviews on retailer sites is that the square is not square when purchased. Also how long lasting is that fix, especially on cheaper squares which have soft aluminium beams?
I could spend £160+ for a Starrett version but instead I bought a speed square for less than £10 and its very reliable for scribing lines coupled with my Dad's old machinists square for checking if board edges are square to faces.
Thanks though.
i agree my 3" machinist square is my daily driver. i also have a speed square that i trust enough for lumber breakdown. Years ago a combination square rode around job sites in my tool belt until i found the speed square.
My favorite square is a Starret 6" combination square. Super handy for dragging lines along or across the end of a board. But to be honest, I do check it from time to time with my second favorite: a Bridge City 4" try square. It has stayed dead on for years and years but I believe in trust but verify. :)
One thing combi squares are good for - my cheapo one was out of square right out of the box, so I threw away the arm and kept the ruler, but it was fairly hard to read (the increments were just machined, not painted in). But it turns out the ruler fits perfectly into all of my chip breaker screws! If you already bought it and plan to chuck it away, just put a hanflr on the ruler and you have a perfect fit screwdriver.
My #1 most used square is a machinist square with a 3" beam. After that, it's a 6" speed square. I have a combo square, but I don't use it much.
A combination of squares is great to have and also no combination squares
All hail the Speed Square! 😂😂😂
I ended up with a set of small machinest squares similar to what you show. It was the best accidental tool purchase ever. I was looking for just a small single fixed square for woodworking. This was during the first big covid lock down so no going inside. I described what I wanted roughly over the phone and paid. I picked it up the next day. When I opened the wood box they came in I was slightly put out. It took my layout to the next level. Of course this started with fixing my shooting board which was out a degree in both planes. I have made some wood squares which I enjoy using... but it is great to have a set of reference squares that will never be off more than my requirements for precision.
Machinist squares and speed squares are my go to for precision marking. A combination square is good for when I want to measure in a fixed amount. Then I mark the line with something more reliable.
I only kinda sorta agree with you. My 12” Starrett combo is dead nuts after 20 years of use. My 4” and 6” double squares were way off and I had to repair one and exchange the other. Very handy to have, but I make sure to check them against my other fixed squares every so often.
I'm no tool snob, I use 'em all. Try, combi, speed square, carpenter's layout square for bigger projects and so on. You name it, I'll use it - as long as it's accurate enough for whatever I'm working on...! 🙂
I agree. I have one high end combo square, and I never use it to check for square or mark 90 or 45 degree lines. I only use it as a gauge to check offsets or mark a set distance. But as a square I have to set it and then check square with a known square which makes no sense
James, I use the same squares as you do to check for square. I do, however, use the combo squares when I need to check a specific measurement
Doing light framing and finish carpentry, I find the speed square and small combo square indispensable. I realize, though, I use the combo square as a gauge and almost never as a square.
Great video to square is all away. 👍🏻
In the beginning of my woodworking the combination square was great. I was frustrated because the cheap squares have not been square. So I got one combination square, it was easy to bring to square and it had all at once. Now I have some good maschinest square and I don't use my combination square anymore. Only if I go somewhere else it's the one I bring, it's set up correctly and I know I can trust it, at least for a day or two. So I'm kinda with you but see good reasons to initially buy one.
I sometimes use a combination square, but only when I'm in a hurry and I don't need that much accuracy (usually when building structures). I might also use a speed square. When it counts, I use a try square.
I think my favorite squares are my old Stanley try squares. I have a 5 piece set of varying sizes. I only had to square one up after realizing it was a tiny bit off. The others were fine, just as they were. All very old with rosewood handles, brass inlay and steel beam. Absolutely love them. I wouldn't sell them for anything.
Combination square as an augment to the large (24x30) framing square are the first two squares I bought. And I've still not replaced them. The small squares in particular: I just can't bring myself to pay good money for one, tho you do make a fairly convincing argument for it. When you are starting out, a simple tool at that does the things you need it is why the combination square is good.
Clearly there are a lot of opinions on this topic. I use all of them. I believe that you should use the tool that gets things done. I use combination squares for rough work. Speed squares and sliding bevels for angles. A small machinist square to set up/check my power tools. The list goes on. Use the tool that does the job and makes you happy. If the only one for you is a folding wooden ruler.... buy it, use it, and build some great stuff.
Thanks for all the tips, James! 😊
I live less than 1/2 mile from the sea, in a tropical country... So I do have a machinists square, BUT... I had to apply cold bluing to it, so it wouldn't rust. 😕
So one of those blocks... No way, unfortunately. But I do think about making some from wood... Who knows.
Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
My favorite square thing in this video is the dad-a-base shirt
You got me squared away.
Really neat. I have a combo and small squares. I've seen so many people use and love combo squares so i thought i needed to and wondered why i didn't really like them. Guess they just aren't for me but i don't have any other good squares yet so I'm stuck with the combo. In time though. In time. Probably when i get that jet table saw I've always wanted... Ah dreams....
Yeah, i've always wondered how accurate a combination square is. Hmmm - a 4" machinist square is in my future. Thanks
As Huey Lewis once said it's hip to be square. 😎
Also the cheapy style sliding squares do work well at a miter saw stand to throw down a quick cross cut line of almost any width. I keep two on mine in case I walk away with one. Lol.
Thank you for your suggestions
Agreed!! Combination squares have caused me frustration when needing precision.
N ya my favorite is a 3" old antique union tool co. I found at an estate sail!
RUclips really needs to have a word with its algorithm. Why have I only found you in the last few days? I hope you take this as intended, but you have the knowledge and skill of a Paul Sellers and the sense or humour / persona of a Drew Fisher. That makes you my ideal content creator! Not bad considering I haven't touched a tool in 20 years 😢 Genuinely, I've been so impressed by what I've seen. Important question, though: how do you shave your head so well? It feels like a never-ending battle.
Thanks. That means a lot. As the shaving my head I do it every other day in the shower with a razor. No need for shaving gel or cream.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo I'm glad you took it as the compliment I intended! Ahh, always looking for tips. I seem to spend my entire life shaving my head.
My 6 inch double square is my go to for everything but miters. I
Although I’m keen to try making some various wooden try squares.
LMAO.... I have 2 combination squares, both were my fathers, and use them often, he was a construction carpenter. I use to do moderate wood working but just didn't have the time. Now that i'm semi retired, I have got the urge to do it again. Recently I began making window and closet door valances. Using crude tools as I gave away many tools I had including my grandfathers large chest of hand tools, and wishing I had them all back. But the valences came out good, our cusan liked them so much, i'm making some for her.
I bought a few very nice, rosewood-infilled tri- and dovetail squares back when Bridge City Tools were still made in The Bridge City; but when I'm using a marking knife I use my old Craftsman combo square. Why? That steel blade; the BCTWs use a brass blade and I only use them with a pencil (which I rarely do anymore). Haven't had any squareness/wear issues but I rarely loosen the blade.
Squares for me are like clamps in that apparently I can never have enough. I also have 2 nice combination squares but I use them more for measuring and they really shine at centering stuff on top of each other. I am aware that they can get out of square so for precision stuff I definitely prefer my machinist’s squares. Even if they have stayed true so far, but you never know, you know? My favorite machinist’s square is a teensy one I got gifted by my dad. Perfect for dovetails. Hey, one more thing: do I need a new iPad or maybe new glasses or was that lipstick you were wearing? Maybe to not come across as square? If so, well played and I’m loving it 😅
My most frequently used squares are 4” and 6” engineer squares. Thanks for the reminder about 1-2-3 blocks. I tend to forget I have them.
Waited all day to listen good.
I mostly use mine as panel guages, never as a try square, I did just check them with my 123 blocks, all but one are square!. I wouldnt trust them for a true 90° though, thats what machinists squares are for. For striking a long line accurately, they excel. I drilled a small hole in the beam end of my big one to stop my pencil point shifting.
My saddle square is always in the trough on my bench. I like it to carry lines around an edge.
I’ve had bad experiences with combination squares but I bought a woodpeckers indexable and that has finally been one I love, I’ll be picking up some 123 blocks!
I'm a fan of my combination square, use it regularly. I also am now a little paranoid about checking it thanks to your aversion 😆
I have a 4" machinist's square that is my go to for accuracy. I also have a few larger try squares that come out from time to time. But most of hte time, it's that machinist's square... and my Veritas saddle square. I love that thing, even if I've had to replace it at least once because it's made of aluminum and gets beat up.
I have a couple of speed squares for when accuracy isn’t too critical. I also have combination squares but I don’t have a lot of trust in them. If I am working on something that is bigger than 300mm then I use my home made wooden layout square that I check with my “Thales” square set up. I also have assembly squares that I clamp in place - I make them on my 3d printer which gives good accuracy.
Thales or 3-4-5 for checking accuracy is for winners!
I have an old combination square that I got years ago with a bunch of vintage tools for cheap and cleaned up. I use it for rough layout and a 4" machinist square for precision. Given not a lot of spare $ or time, I need to make some wooden try squares before I move onto bigger projects because I know my combo isnt perfect, so I usually mark from both sides so I can see what the error is.
They cause me so much frustration!
Lol I'm one of those that keep the combination square in my apron but I also have squares that are locked in at every work station in my shop and I must agree they are not as accurate as most people give them credit to be but I still love them for carpentry work
I use the combination square when I need the adjustable blade for some kind of internal depth measurement, and the immovable square just can't do it. I also like good quality speed squares.
Thanks for sharing that!
I love hearing from real woodworkers who don't praise the almighty combination square. I have nice combo squares but I rare use them. I also prefer fixed squares.
I use combination squares more to measure than to mark. I have 2 I use because one has 16ths, 20ths, 64ths, and 50ths of an inch and the other has normal 16ths and metric. The first one’s a Union, I don’t remember the other. I don’t have issues with them staying square, but there’s inherent wiggle room. I pencil mark with them as I’m planning. But I only use a marking knife with a try square or similar.
I had a new Harbor Freight one, a new big box store one, and an old Stanley combo square I restored that would fall wildly out of square if a breeze came through my garage. The first 2 made me think I was doing stuff wrong when I was starting. It wasn’t until I realized how to check them that I realized they were dumber than I am. I kept the ruler out of the Stanley but violently pitched the first 2.
I have a 6 inch try and a tiny machinist’s square. I also have a machinist doodad that is a right triangle. I use it to check inside angles on tools and finished stuff. I do want a 4 inch, but will wait until I find an old one.
I buy what I can afford, usually plastic combination squares or speed square. When possible, I buy squares at garage sales, of which I have an old combination square and an Stanley metal non-combination square. My tools are mostly used, but decent. I can't afford tools that take away our life savings.
I love my combination squares, but you're right about checking them. I have a PEC (mitutoyo) where the 45° side is off by 0.5° from the 90° side (that adds up over 1-2 feet), not simply out of square with the rule (filing things down to fix the 45 would make the 90 incorrect). I haven't seen any of my combination squares go out of square (so far) but I do use machinist squares and 1-2-3 blocks when I need real accuracy. I also like the little Veritas layout triangles (the 2.5in is great, and far cheaper than the DFM one if you don't need those scribe holes). One other great thing worth mentioning: TayTools and Veritas both sell a fence that you can attach to a large framing square … it's a $20-ish upgrade that turns a cheap carpentry tool into a precision layout square)
I actually have a couple of Mitutoyo combination squares that I like but my go to is an old Stanley infill square.
Hmmm…I’ll have to give this some thought. Maybe I need to make some try squares after all
Any square will do if it's a square. If it's not square it is as useful as a hammer without a head.
In my younger days I bought a try square and after a a lot of not quite right carpentry I realised it was just" a try"
When the penny dropped and I learnt how to check a square my life squared itself.
Squarely on topic, thanks!
Thanks James
I'd say my favorite square was Jack Benny
I am not fighting you you are definitely a better worker than I am however I do for my combination square because the tool feel in the hand for one just makes it enjoyable for me I have a nice one and it's got a marking pin built-in as well
At my work, we use combination squares as layout tools and try and machinist squares as squares.
I guess for me it's a compromise between how serious you want to be as a woodworker and how much money you want to spend on accuracy. I bought a 4" Starrett sliding T square some years ago and have had good luck with it. But I definitely trust my fixed squares more when I have to be sure. Also, most machinist squares aren't marked with measurements, are they?
I have a matching miniature 75mm try square and 95mm bevel gauge with bamboo grips grips that I use all the time, more than the full size equivalents. Very handy, accurate enough, and also: cute 😊
I've been intrigued by the combination square, but boi oh boi are the good ones expensive 😮 I've payed less for all my current marking tools than what a basic starrett combo square costs over here. No, thank you.
That soap box is ok to step up on high enough to see the best tool in the shop for the job at hand 😂
We all want a Square Deal !
Cheap squares aren't where you find them.
Before my emergency move to San Diego last year to address my wife's healthcare issues, I had multiple sets of Starett Squares that my Dad used before WW2 working at Grumman on F4F's and other current aircraft.
These were trustworthy squares that were still after 3 generations of use, Trustworthy.
Bottom line?
You get what you pay for.
I like speed squares and machinist's squares the most.
i use try squares. speed squares are not very commonly used in germany.. but everyone has a try square. definetly have to get some smaller ones!
Someone is a bit rough with their squares it seems. My combination square was founded among the bones of a fossilised brachiosaurus, and it's still perfectly square to this day.
Being a blockhead, I just stick my head in the corner and strike a line 🤯
I have never used a Starrett. I do have a Workhorse 12" combo square, and I have never had it go out of square. I think the rails that the straight edge rides on are also hardened to the same or harder Rockwell. The 4" double square though, has to be really screwed down or it will loosen and rock.
I also have a Woodpecker 6" tri square. I don't use it much any more because it is just so bulky. However, the extra lip on the inside of it that allows the beam to lay flat on the board is nice sometimes.
I like using the wooden try squares I made years ago
I love a square deal, but sometimes you have to deal with what you are given.
I know my Irwin combination square is off by a tiny bit, and still haven't got the chance to touch it up.
LEGO works as a square in a pinch. They have very tight tolerances.
PS: you're probably aware (I learned this from a builder doing our house extension) but if you create a triangle which has sides of exactly 3, 4 and 5 units ( any units - inches, feet, metres, a stick etc) then the angle between the 3 and 4 sides is EXACTLY ninety degrees. Applied Pythagoras theorem. Can be used to make or check squares.
Right on. I like to use that on the framing squares and larger ones. But when it comes down to the small 6-in smaller I find it very difficult to accurately Mark that triangle with any precision. I generally prefer to use the flipping the square method is that allows you to get more accurate on a smaller scale. But it doesn't work very well on the larger scales.
Math! Eww!! 😉
You don't need to do the maths or understand it - just measure sides at 3 units, 4 units and 5 units (or any multiple of those like 6, 8 & 10 etc) and you will get a precise right angle.
Its how the ancient Babylonians and Egyptians created square corners.
Found this handy video showing a quick way to make one ruclips.net/video/aNjO4SBe5kw/видео.html
Speed squares and combi squares are great for construction. But i wouldnt use em for a critical measurement
Back when I was building houses. When a new guy came onto the site and had a combo square. We knew that he didn’t know how to do the work. But with that said a combo square is good in the shop for rough cuts. Then use the better quality tools to finish the job. And you are wrong about the 90. You need it very accurate. Because if not then you’re going to be out of square. By how much depends on the square.
Square cuts, square boards, square walls, square house, square meals, one way or another we're all a little square in our own way...
,a cool video keep up the great content.. Thank you……
Yes totally agree with your comment you definitely need to check your engineers square and a square wins every time, but are you building a grand piano or a dunny?😊
Hi
Great video!
I want to ask how often do you have to check wooden squares if they are square?
And, as a beginner, I want to ask what wood is more stable vith the changes in humidity and temperature? In Romania we have a lot of this changes.
I would check every season. so around 3very 3 months. usually the harder the wood the more stabile it is, but they all move.
Sounds like you had bad luck with combo squares.. I have never had any dramas with mine in the past 40 years. Other than that, I do love my 4" machinist square and use the 1 2 3 blocks as well.
I use combination squares all day long - not for checking square - for layout. Almost like marking guages - I can set a length and then repeatedly move around the timber marking out precise distances. They are also really good at guaging depths...or 'set backs' from edges etc.
:-) I am a bit OCD when it comes to squares that need to be square - but have never found a video yet that explains how square a project needs to be....is it ok for cabinets to be 2 - 3 mm out over 600mm for example?
Love the videos BTW.
Has the house squared does it need to be I want to be able to run the square around the board that is about 6 in wide and have the mark come out to be visually Dead on where it started. So that would come out to somewhere around 100th of an inch over a foot. More accurate than that is way too accurate for woodworking. And in most cases it doesn't need to be anywhere near that accurate. But I like to keep my squares about that amount.
I don't like combi squares either. Never understood why these are always on those "tools every woodworker needs" type lists. I practically can't pass up a try square every time I see them in tool swaps.
On the subject of combination squares there is one thing I agree 100% with you on…that cheap POS you threw over your shoulder is junk. Beyond that I beg to differ with you. When I was building houses one of the basic tools in my apron was a combination square (I also carried a speed square and a rafter square was never far away). A combination square was indispensable and the ones I had all carried names like Starrett, Brown and Sharp, Lufkin, etc. A 12" Lufkin that still lives in my leather framing apron is so work worn that all the crisp edges are rounded over and it remains dead accurate no matter where on the beam it is slid to. I also have an ancient 4" Lufkin that I just checked with a 3" machinists square and it too is dead accurate both inside and outside. At 77 years of age I no longer frame houses but in my shop the combination squares pull equal duty with my try squares. Pretty much depends on which one is closest to hand.
Agree with you completely building houses and even fine carpentry I used to use a combination square all the time. The accuracy there is far lower requirement than furniture making.
But I like roundish! My 1-2-3 blocks are my favourite all round tool. Oh there I go again with the round! LOL.
Amazing to see Festool commercials on a hand tool channel.
Lol did that pop up?
Maybe we're about to get a new premium plane with excellent dust collection that stores in a systainer.
I don't think there is a "wrong". If it works best for you, it's right for you.
Lol, well......as a tradesman to me they are perfectly fine for 90% of what I do and I also replace them every couple of years. Currently looking for a decent tri squares that wont break the bank. For the other 10%. Perhaps I'm simply a creature of bad habits lol
You forgot to add that the locking screw can loosen up.
So, what is your opinion of tbe Odd Job?
I keep a 2" machinist'ssquarwand a 6" try square on my bench at all times.
I use a combination square for rough stock layout.
Here is a video on the odd job. ruclips.net/video/nLFcXDuEtYs/видео.htmlsi=o7nophP4zQkwe_xL
It's a fun toy but not very functional LOL
Thank you, James.
While making a model today I got a chance to use my 1" try square (St. James Bay) ☺️
YOU THREW AWAY A STARRETT?!
I mostly use a plastic T square but it gives my husband hives when he sees it. (I do not build in wood. I also have a micrometer to measure knitting needles after I was seen measuring one with plastic calipers. It’s knitting. It STRETCHES. At least until you dip it in resin
I suppose it all comes down to personal experience. I haven't had a bad experience with Combination Square. That being said, I haven't had a bad experience with Try Squares either
What about square dance ?🤔😅
We all know that Rex Krueger is bonkers. Oddly, he says the same about you. Methinks you're both correct. :) Good video. Thanks for sharing.
You're wrong and you should be using a Combination Square... honestly, I have one of the Defiance combination squares and the main reason I keep using it is because it has the little scribe with it and you would be surprised just how many times I'm holding a piece perfectly and needed that stupid little thing. Other than that I have several try squares and framing squares I use. Actually you're not wrong your Wright !!!
I really like my speed square/rafter square. It's harder to try the outside of an angle, of course, but for quick right angles it's great.
What do you do to your combo squares? Because my father gave me one more than 20 years ago and it's still square every time I check it. That said, it definitely requires more thought than the speed square. I make sure it's always seated firmly after moving the beam.
I definitely want some try squares, though.
Every time you slide the beam you wear down the seats.
Who sells those angle squares?
Well, it's hip to be square, which is why you have so many :-)