Archery | Overdrawing
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- Опубликовано: 2 июл 2024
- A discussion and comparison of anchor points and draw lengths from different styles, and why modern styles don't use long draw lengths.
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Just want to thank you for getting this particular fifty year old interested enough to take up the sport. :-)
Nice
Never too late to start archery☺️ i started late also at 30.
Jack Keedal - I started at 64!
Best description I've ever heard of the changing nature of what archery is used for. Thanks!
Great to have an in depth historical background as context for another great lesson. Thanks again Nu
I've watched a lot of your videos and my conclusion is, that you are one of the top 10 content creator in terms of archery on youtube💪🏹 thank you a lot!
This video was perfect for learning about not only why draws are the way they are, but getting informed on the anchoring point that I was taught at my intro class. I feel more informed on what I should pick and how I want to shoot now that I've just entered the sport. Thank you.
Excellent break down of the different aspect of drawing. Thanks sensei!
Nice compact information packet Nu.
As traditional archery fanboy, each to their own style, and I have learned much from your videos.
Always wanted to know this. Excellent job NuSensei
This is really interesting and informative. Thanks for making it!
That was such a great video, informative, useful, fun... thanks so much!
Thanks for the videos. I've been drawing to my ear for 35 years now. I was confused when I first saw your videos about drawing to the corner of the mouth tbh. I'm so comfortable the way I'm drawing it would be difficult to change now.
This is good, attention to detail. This kind of thing helps me learn and get ideas about authenticity for my book which focuses on [futuristic version of] military archery, for example I gotta pick out a standard length for arrows that have the room to be drawn back to the ear or jawbone if the archer decides to, stuff like that. Really helps when hearing about what the goals are for each of these different anchors and such. I may be a target shooter but I practice to get a hard PUNCH shot so I pull my 31"-32" arrows all the way to the ear/jawbone using either side of the bow. Thumb, Slavic, and Mediterranean.
nice video. I really like how you highlight how the pros and cons of overdrawing are aligned with the different goals of historical archery, and explicitly stated that the standard of accuracy of modern archery makes the overdraw technique inefficient due to a difference in goals.
I feel like I've seen in some other videos that you've not explicitly expressed the difference in goals of a modern archer compared to a historical one. no doubt since you've made tons of these videos, you feel like you're repeating yourself, but honestly many people only watch a few of your videos and they really need you to say it in EVERY video haha.
I've gradually watched a hefty portion of your videos and I felt very cautious and skeptical at first because the impression I got was that you were applying modern archery standards to other techniques and judging them harshly as a result. It kinda felt like you were a modern archery fanboy and that you were harshly judging any technique not used in modern archery.
This video really finally made me realize that you were actually being reasonable the whole time, I just didn't understand that you were often explaining why modern archers did not adopt alternative techniques, not asserting the superiority of the modern archery technique in every context. It might sound funny, but until I heard you explicitly lay out the differences in goals between a historical combat archer vs a modern sport archer, I really wasn't sure if you were even considering those differences in your videos. Hearing it now really recontextualizes all of your previous analysis, and I might have to go back and watch several of them since its been over a year and now, with this context, I might be able learn more than I did in my first viewing way back then because I'll be honest, I had a very dismissive attitude towards those videos on first viewing due to you not seeming to consider that techniques for combat had very different goals and standards than techniques for sport.
Perfectly sums up my experience with the channel.
great comment, I had a quiet similar experience with this channel 👍
Coffee and Nu vid on Saturday morning👍👌
🤣same. Except it's Thurs now for me
While overdrawing isn’t necessary, it is damn good fun. When I draw my Korean bow to 31 inches it just feels more enjoyable. Absolutely not as accurate, but seeing the speeds from a tiny bow always puts a smile on my face. I never feel like I’m using my Korean bow properly if I only draw to 28 inches, kinda like driving a car in third gear the whole time.
I just tried over-drawing my regular recurve today. It was really fun! Actually was easier to aim with since the arrows went right where I pointed and didn't drift. Was shooting a 40 which became too easy, so I thought I'd try pulling farther. Probably got around a 50 pound draw. Very fun.
@@fauziacademy I dont think most turkish bows are made for overdraw.
To my knowledge, turkish bows have the shortest max draws of all horsebows, and a proper turkish draw is only to the mustache.
If it works, it works though. Just be careful not to pass that max draw length
@@assaultspoon4925 You'll find native Indian bows much shorter then that. 36-45 inches with a draw of 15-20 inches was quite common for plains tribes. Quite ridiculously effective - and cool - little weapons. Both on horseback and on foot, even as gun powder rifles became more common
perfect I am about to find this information , and I got them all in one video
Not being an archer myself, I am actually quite interested in the history of archery and the history of bows and bow design. Would be great if a professional archer, such as yourself, could give us modern interpretation of those.
You are so smart well spoken! thanks for the lesson on overdrawing :)
Very interesting (and well explained). Aiming to learn both styles (someday) :)
But seriously nice video this is definitely going to help when I get into different styles and I’m definitely going to be researching it more.
Spot on. 🙂Thank you for this video.
Really cool video, thank you for sharing
I'd like to add one thing to your excellent explanation. Longer draw per the same bow weight, transfers the energy over a longer period of time which allows for lighter and more efficient arrows. Longer draw means, lighter arrows, lighter bow, more projectiles carried per shooter, less fatigue, much, much, less logistic problems. English Longbow archers would be even more impressive if they were given 150lbs composite recurves with long draw.
Good video and explanation
Good explanation 👍
I thought if I started archery, it would be with a wooden bow; but man, that blue metal one is a beauty!
For anyone interested, after some search, I found out it's a Topoint Unison archery recurve bow riser.
I've always drawn my thumb knuckle to my ear. Like for 40+ years. It feels odd to anchor to my mouth in the modern way. But I'm not a competition shooter, hell my dominant eye is opposite than my right hand. I shoot a rifle left handed and should have learned to shoot a left handed bow I guess. I shoot a pistol right-handed and my dominant left eye definitely affects my aim. Great video, always good, thank you.
Your wrapped bow ? I'm trying to think how to describe the sound it makes when you draw it .
The wrapping creaks or squeaks.
The wrapping definitely makes a sound
Can i use the mandrinduck phantom as a olympic style bow/ use stabilizers and sights
I've just started doing archery, and I've already decided to practice the old "overdraw" technique, mainly how the English/Welsh longbowmen drew their bows. I'm getting better and better at hitting the target, but I've just started so it can only get better. I've found that I use the cock feather's front part touches my jawline, and the string touches my chest that I've reached my full draw (35 inches in my case). It seems to work just fine for me, and I don't plan on ever competing so pinpoint accuracy doesn't really matter to me.
But as for why I chose to use the old school technique, it's mostly the same reason why I'd prefer to do HEMA than Olympic fencing. I just find that the modern versions of old sports/skills are just to... formal. Both modern archery and fencing are a far cry from what they used to be, and since I'm a history nerd, I wanted to be authentic with my bow.
Just to give you a comparison - compare Olympic shooters, and Joe Gibbs who overdraws a 210 pound bow. I kinda prefer the latter one, but if you prefer the former, that's also great.
But still, if you hit your target with whatever technique you use, it doesn't really matter what it is in the end. If it works, then it's not stupid.
Thanks for your video. I really enjoy your channel! A video I would like to see: How does over/under drawing affect archer's paradox? Does the extra power need a stiffer arrow and that makes the arrow smack the bow? Does reduced power need less spine and therefore the arrow doesn't bend enough? If a bow and arrow combination is setup for a shorter or taller person, will you need to compensate your draw length or use different arrows to get the arrow to fly properly? Could the margin of error be great enough that plus or minus a couple of inches of draw doesn't matter? A video like that with a slow-motion camera would be great, but coming from an experienced archer like yourself would make it even better. This is especially interesting to me because I have a really long draw at 33 inches, so my setup can be tricky.
The short answer is yes. That is why you should be considering your *actual* draw weight as measured at your draw length rather than what your bow or limbs state.
@@NUSensei Thanks! A demo of this would make an awesome video.
this is why we need the video on dynamic spine and dynamic efficiency. not only does the increase of poundage increase the compressional force on the arrow , but speed or rather rate of energy transfer also comes into play .
Do you think it's easier to have a good backtension and a good release when you have more backdraw? I know it's not the same release, but anyway!
Q: "Am I disadvantaged by using a shorter draw?"
A: Well... That depends how badly you need to kill your target.
@William Soren I have saw you guys for so many times, propaganda?
Context. It depends on the situation, the archer and the bow
Something every pilot gets to know is that a cross wind will affect the course of his aeroplane no matter how large or small his plane may be. Only way to reduce the final deflection caused by a cross wind over a given distance is to fly faster because the plane is affected by the wind for less time .
I'm wondering if there isn't sometimes an accuracy advantage in shooting an arrow as fast as possible?
.
That's the principle behind arrow velocity and heavy weights. Less time in the air = less wind drift.
I think dynamic efficiency is relevant to this subject ,perhaps the topic of another video ?
I imagine hunters are using long draws then... Good explanation with good background.
My compound bow is set for 27.5" draw length. About the same as my draw length. I'm finding that as I fatigue after shooting for a while, the bow pulls me forward if my draw slips a little. This has lead to some unintentional releases. What are the cons to setting the bow draw length a little shorter than my draw length?
Cool stuff - any tips or resources for learning to shoot English longbow/warbow?
I am a Lakota,We would shoot anchorless or anchor at the chest,with Our tribal equipment I also will anchor My wrist joint to My chin for a longer range shot.
Thank you, do you have a video on the best bows(websites to order) for beginners?
it all depends on what you want to do, if you are shooting a manchurian bow and only draw 26inches than yes you are at a dissadvantage becouse you are not using the full potencial of the bow, if you are shooting a modern recurve bow than ofcourse no. It all depends on what you are trying to do and what Bow you are using
Any idea where i can buy a glove like that? I really want something for both thumb and normal draw.
Curious about the thumb draw; where would the anchor point be?
This depends on the style you shoot, not the method of draw. Thumb-draw styles vary from chin, ear to behind the behind, and rapid shooters don't anchor at all.
Hey NUSensei , not sure if you read comments or not, but I've always been curious if you've ever gone bow hunting. Deer hunting with a bow is always something I've been fascinated in, but I'm still training until I get to the point where I can get a clean and humane kill... I don't wanna shoot some poor deer with an ill-placed shot and have him suffer or be permanently injured. I know that compound hunting bows are a bit different than what you use, but nonetheless, have you ever tried bow-hunting and do you believe that your skills in target-shooting have a big impact on shooting moving targets (aka, deer, geese, pheasants, rabbits, ducks, etc.) Thanks! Love the video btw as always
I don't hunt.
What about archery hunting? Is there a case to be made for an overdraw?
It would appear to me that the longer the arrow the more accurate the alignment to the target.
There is no sense to this statement.
Not at all. Shot placement is more important for that, and you don't need an especially powerful bow for it (unless you're going after something like an elephant or other extremely large animal).
NuSensei, assuming you read this, another reason for longer draw is that it may actually allow you to use heavier bows in addition to the longer power stroke, due to biomechanics (I've read this, and while this is subjective it seems to be the case for me). Apparently, it may allow you to apply your back muscles in a slightly more efficient way. Obviously not necessary in modern target archery (and indeed the drawbacks outweigh any potential benefits there considerably), but I thought that might be of interest to you.
Put a video about indian bows
Your Anchor is when your Scapulae is set. The touch points are just references.
What about for hunting? Would it matter if you are using compound verses recurve bows?
Regular bows (both traditional ones and modern recurves) are a lot harder to draw with the same draw weight. Shooting a 100 lb. compound bow will be relatively easy, but to shoot a 100 lb. English longbow, which has no pulleys which give the shooter mechanical advantage, you must be in very good physical shape.
Hey Nu, do you have anything to say about super long arrows and big bows - eg. 6 foot long arrows used by amazon tribes?
No, they're not darts - national geographic mentioned they were arrows. Seems weird.
What's your opinion as regards Korean traditional archery historically shooting at targets at 2-300m, nowadays 140m with long draw, compared to short draw & modern bows managing 100m tops in terms of accuracy? I don't know any club shooters who could even do close to that with a modern set up.. wouldn't that suggest that there's limited benefit to short draw in terms of accuracy...
To my understanding in korean archery the target is much bigger than in olympic shooting. Also every hit scores the same. Olympic shooters scores you get more getting closer to the center, and the center size is like coke can. Dudes who can hit that at 70m can hit over 2meter diameter korean target very far i imagine.
What bow is hat, I am looking for a mongol bow any particular brand ?
Just a doubt, overdrawing a recurve bow could damage it? I´m getting in professional archery and I am afraid a don´t get a bow with a draw length large enough
Not if it’s well made
I seem to get a problem scratching the side of my face on release whenever I anchor to my ear using 3 fingers, is there any way to stop that at all? It doesn’t do it so much with the thumb draw, probably because the string is curving away from me with that release.
Would you draw differently for different target range using the same bow?
The draw would be the same but the angle of the bow would be different.
kindly make a video on "how do elbow twisting while in shot process for recurve target archery" iam confused
what elbow ? for the draw elbow we are talking about alignment and angular motion, for avoiding string slap on the bow arm , the ossission of the knuckles in the elbow should be aligned vertical and the point of the elbow pointing towards. the ground at 30 to 45 degrees angel .to achieve this without twisting the muscles of the joint , forcing the rotation (turning palm down) reaching to the target and activating the bow arm triceps(forward push ) and maintaining a solid pressure point on the riser will provide isometric strength to the bow arm. recommended reading total archery (downloadable df) and the setup section -
Just as an aside, are your glasses more at risk with the overdraw? That is, could they be jostled off during fire?
I've never had that problem.
Then are you saying the "recurves" on the ancient style bow your were holding performs a different function than the recurves on more recent recurve designs?
I was told not to overdraw or I'll break the bow. Something called "stacking"? I just want to know if I can pull my longbow beyond 28" without damaging it. I'm afraid of getting a full draw because I was told damage and injury is possible if I really pull back.
There are a couple of different concepts here.
"Stacking" is when the direction of the draw on the limb tips because more horizontal, which exponentially increases the difficulty of drawing it. Hypothetically, it might required 35# at 28" but 44# at 30". Shorter bows will stack more than longer bows.
The maximum draw length of a bow is different. This is more pertinent to traditional bows, as they are not designed to be drawn past a certain length, which _will_ break it. It is typically wiser to follow the manufacturer's max draw length.
That said, 28" is the industry standard for measuring draw weight, and typically not the maximum draw length.
@@NUSensei According to the manufacturer, the Southwest Scorpion has a maximum draw length of 29-32". Using a measuring tape, it seems a full draw for me would be 33-34". It seems like I don't have to be afraid of the bow exploding on me unless I try to pull past my ear like your Japanese style archery video demonstrated. A shame, since I really want to try that. I'll stick with the chin anchor to avoid damaging the bow. Thank you for replying.
I feel that i can use my back muscles to draw the bow only if i overdraw. If i go to the face i need to use only my arms. Please heellp. I use a 33 pouds cheap longbow.
This might be late advice though I'll say it anyway. You're probably keeping your drawing elbow too low, thereby not giving your back muscles much of an opportunity to assist in the draw. Try to start with both arms elevated in front of you, drawing elbow as high as you can comfortably get it, and your bow shoulder low, with a slight bend in your bow arm. Then use your lats to drive your drawing elbow backward and downward, almost as if doing a lat pulldown, while simultaneously driving your bow arm downward into shooting position. You should feel the load transition to your back muscles and should feel only mild tension in your drawing arm biceps once you've reached your anchor point. Hope this helps.
@@johnbarron4265 thanks i will try.
You say we don't need "power" but what is power in relation to archery? Velocity. And the higher the velocity the more accurate, correct? That said, I think you answered that problem with "just get a heavier bow", so the overdraw still wouldn't be needed. Am I wrong?
The relationship of "Power = velocity = accuracy" is too simple to properly describe the reality. More velocity means less time in the air, which means less wind drift, but this doesn't doesn't necessarily mean more accuracy, especially for a traditional shooter. The balancing point is that more power also means less control of the shot. A mistake some archers make is trying to shoot a heavier bow, but they are physically unable to handle the weight, causing more inconsistencies in technique.
Istaf you can translate power to pound in draw weight or kinetic energy , but a bows draw weight is a highly fluent variable , shorter draw less energi , heavier arrow less speed, heavy limbs ,modern materials etc. the power relation can be measured using equations for dynamic efficiency, the higher the efficiency the lesser loss of energy . its funny how bows are not measured in impact force since input and output are not the same
I pull the string to the back of my ears for 40m.
(even if my arrows didn't hit the target, it's soooo fun)
floweringmywaters Anen to that!!! I use a 34 inch draw and it’s a blast pulling it all the way back there! Swoosh goes the arrow and watching the trajectory of the arrow, as simple a thing as it is, is too fun for words.
Though, with that draw length, any error I make is magnified by a factor of 10! But do what. It just forces you to focus more on getting a perfect release.
Could definitely help in archery tag lol
More arrow speed, more power, more range, but less accurate and make you tired faster
However in the days of war the archers target was almost always a large body of troops instead of individuals. So accuracy was easy to achieve because of the size of the target and so a long draw was required not just for penetration but for tactically advantageous standoff distances. You’d rather shoot your errors had a longer distance distance closer to the enemies own archers
because 1/2KX^2
I came in news paper regarding south zone archery competition im an under nineteen gold medalist bieng under twelve
nice video its like kicking a hornets nest across a trollbridge :D cant wait for the informative discussions to light the comment section
This is so interesting.
I need to find a style that doesn't hurt my overbending arm 🫠
I can hear FOC archers screaming
I actually find myself naturally trying to draw back as much as possible when I try my hand at archery.
But doesn't overdrawing also offer a more consistent shoot? Since the arrow flies with more force, it technically should go more straight and get less influenced by bad release compared to shorter draw.
And that part about consistency it's entirely not true. Ofcourse if you've been shooting bow for years and found a consistent anchor point on your face, no wonder you may feel that way. But looking at it from somebody who just starts out and has yet to find a consistent anchor point, there's really no difference between face and just feeling when your body is in the right position or whatever you want to call it. It's all about repetition, so if somebody practices that, his anchor could be just as consistent as the face anchor.
@nu sensei can you make video about tips to preventing arrow hit arrow in practice? I've already lost about 2dozen arrow all because of this
Unless I'm missing something, the obvious solution is to shoot at different spots...
My shot sucks when I over draw
I have a 60 inch bow buck trail caribou and I don't know its draw length. Can anyone help????
I would like to point out that "drawing to the ear" is only a saying. When an archer draws "to the ear" there are no anchor points and the fingers certainly don't touch the ear. It's just a way of refering to the full draw of an archer which usually means that the fingers are close to the ear when he does so.
@Jiyu You would slap your face with the string if you were to anchor on the ear (that's why your hand floats slightly to the side of it). Further more you do not need an anchor point when at full draw (drawing to the ear) as the arrow will be in perfect alignment with both the eye and and the arm( creating a power line ).
@Jiyu Well, since people get told to use anchor points nobody these days knows how to use floating anchors. People don't feel the power of the bow in their arms and it's a big thing when drawing to the ear. That's why people say that accuracy is affected. It's just because they lack training and understanding of a technique that had been forgotten. Anchor points are just a way to work around the difficulty.
transverse angel of the string as it rolls of or forces the fingers out of the way creates various degrees of oscillation (paradox )and changes how the arrow flexes during flight ,even with bow arrow and body in perfect alignment those 3 fingers will always be rouge elements and provide a constant unknown and changing variable I call human inconsistency , and since its the last point of contact and the last action in a long chain human input will override all tuning
I shoot traditional bow with thumb draw. It's not that difficult to find the locking point of back muscles, once the idea of "consistent draw length" is established. Also I don't know why you make it sound like a lost art when every bare bow shooters I met with long draw knows that from the start. I didn't even read any old literature and I came up with my own long draw form, with my right arm bend tight and string going through the notch on my ear. See? That's not difficult at all to figure out.
nanorisk .... how can you expand if your muscles are locked in ?
Hola.. Im an atcher in india... Make a video about INDIAN BOWS
No
Nobody cares broov
@Wolfreign Valenford ahhh...I'm not that kind an d rich...brush pews suckkkkkk...I will sun P ewds of u do a bid about this bow
Generic Username I care, but not about you
I won’t be able to find out what my correct weight is since my trainer doesn’t have a stronger bow than 28lbs. Time to ditch my trainer.
I'd like to point out that Eastern composite bows could and did reach draw weights that were comparable to or even greater than the heaviest English longbows. Heavier Mongol bows reached 160-170s lb in draw while Manchu bows supposedly reached the 200s lb in draw: Russian historian George Vernadsky wrote that the Mongols carried two bows around, and at least one of the bows they carried had a pull of ~166 pounds: "Each archer usually carried two bows and two quivers. The Mongol bow was very large and of the composite type, it required a pull of at least 166 pounds" -The Mongols And Russia (vol-iii), By George Vernadsky and Michael Karpovich
archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.183512/2015.183512.The-Mongols-And-Russia-vol-iii_djvu.txt
British historian James Chambers wrote that the Mongol bow had a pull up to 160 lbs: "between 100 and 160 pounds and snapped out its arrows over an effective range of 360 yards. The Mongols could bend and string their bows in the saddle by placing one end between their feet and their stirrups..." -Genghis Khan, by James Chambers
books.google.com/books?id=_ucSDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT40&lpg=PT40&dq=160+pounds&source=bl&ots=R_zWX0NwNo&sig=ACfU3U1cXa_WDmskf5rnxAyaCd-_fC3q6g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiYw6-g1_vfAhXwc98KHSbkCK8Q6AEwEHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=160%20pounds&f=false
Mark C. Elliott, professor of Asian History at Harvard, wrote that 80 Qing Dynasty archers in a garrison at Hangzhou in 1736 could draw composite bows of 147-173 lbs in draw weight, and a Qing champion in a 1728 contest between the one hundred top bowmen in the empire won one hundred taels when he hit the bull's-eye using an eighteen-strength bow with an estimated drawing weight of almost 240 pounds.
First
8:57 wtf...is there a clown there with you?
First like
Some mongals were dummy accurate.
I object to the use of the term "overdraw".
"Overdraw" means drawing further than you should.
What you are describing is drawing bows to a proper and correct length, for those bows.
Thus it is wrong to call it overdrawing.