Gregory and Marco. Thanks for listening to Deference for Darkness. So, for the record, ALL the instruments are real and recorded live. If I remember correctly, I ended up using two different sax players.
Your music is such a powerful tool not only for carrying the emotions inside the game, but it STILL invokes a huge sense of nostalgia listening to it nowadays. Thank you for giving us that.
You know - I may not agree much with Marco or his guests, but I respect Marco's guests reactions a lot more than the normal cam reaction youtubers because I often notice them writing notes while listening. That's already a ton more respect given to the artists, when you note down your thoughts so you can articulate them better later. It shouldn't be old school, yet it is.
I could never write my thoughts about something at the same time I'm experiencing it, if I do my brain says I'm losing part of the experience for write in the side about it, I prefer condense my thoughts and/or do a "re-experience" of the topic after, than interrupt my brain from put all his focus on the 1st experience itself
@@WildspeakerYTyour point about experiencing something for the first time is 100% valid but in this case it’s reacting to music and giving your opinion on it. It’s like asking someone to give you an opinion on a health examination. You don’t want someone to say something instantly, you want them to take notes and think
@@WildspeakerYT I think it must be a trained/aquired skill learned in the profession he is in because if you tell from the breakdown of the sonic song it is very obvious that he is able to both write down notes and still keep listening to the song or he would not have been able to keep noting down things that kept happening with timestamps and have such a good insight on what was going on in the song outside of those moments.
The saxophonist in Halo 3 odst is Dewey Marler. He's an old friend of my sax teacher, the sax was fully played in studio so it threw me off when he thought the sax sound was synthesized cuz its not 😅 Aside from that i really liked his commentary on it, it was really insightful to hear!
@@itsaUSBline He's still wrong, Deference for Darkness' sax was recorded live in studio and wasn't assembled via a program. Halo's OST utilizes most of an orchestra, choir and band.
@@itsaUSBlinestill wrong it’s a live recording and I found it very striking that he didn’t notice it was live saxophone because as a saxophone player it sounds the most real saxophone that you can possibly get you can literally hear the pads clicking and the breathing in the recording
@@MrPikaGammer the orchestra was the northwest sinfonia in seattle, great group! They're the ones that play for alot of video games in the Washington area
Yeah I was confused as to why he says this, especially considering the Sax sound very real and very great to me. My best guess is that he might have a preconception or bias towards believing most to all Video Music is just composed and arranged electronically. (which to be fair it started that way and many soundtracks still are). Its a testament to the explosive success of halo that back in the early 2000s they were hiring excellent orchestras and performers like this for their soundtracks.
Its like showing your cool uncle your toys and he really shows interest in them because he genuinely likes these toys and knows so much about them(a professor of toys?).Great guy.
at 55 minutes in, "... i know people want to hear music instead of just yammering". As a certified person who lacks the technical understanding to explain what I like or dislike in music in detail, I can confirm that I am here for the yammering. For the most part I am already familiar with the music but I find all of the discussions fascinating because they are coming from a totally different angle than I would be coming in at and I always leave one of these videos with a little bit more knowledge and understanding because of it.
I never mind a musician being nonplussed by a video game OST, because 1. A lot of the emotional weight of a soundtrack comes from it's context, to give an analogy while a butter connoisseur might have different tastes in butter as it is, video game butter is usually best served with the dish it's used in, and removed of that it *can* very easily feel slightly empty, especially since VGM is usually meant to loop a bit. 2. More importantly it makes me go "oh this person is actually taking the thing they're being presented with seriously" so to speak they don't separate expectations between video games and classically composed music for music's sake. To circle back to the butter analogy, a butter connoisseur can either consider all butter from a specific brand to be no better than margarine and be surprised to find out they were wrong, or they could just hold the butter to the standards of butter even before assessing it in a fair fashion. Yes the butter analogy was way more succint in my head lol
It's the same with movie music. It's meant to go with the movie and without the latter, it can feel a bit empty. (Opening credits tend to work by themselves).
I absolutely feel point #1. As another example from Final Fantasy. Anyone can listen to, say, "Tomorrow and Tomorrow" from FFXIV and say that it has emotional impact from the way it is composed and performed. However without the context of the story leading up to everything in the story and without the delivery of the song in the moment it is performed in the game, there is a dissonance from player to random listener to how powerful the song is. Whereas someone listening could say it's a beautiful song, a player will be crying their eyes out because of the context and build up of the piece.
For me the arrengemnet they did for the ending name And End, Once and For All is also a masterpiece, it keeps the motive but is also weirdly hopeful and sad at the same time.
Leaving Earth is a great example of why context is _especially_ important with video game OSTs. The somber chord progression, punctuated by the lone high piano melody, before being overwhelmed by ominous, deep, heavy, almost metallic chords. Humanity and Shepard, this fragile hope being overwhelmed by the immense pressure of the Reaper invasion. And then the slow introduction of strings and horns, building off of the piano, representing the alliances that Shepard must form with the other races, building to a motif that is never triumphant, not quite hopeful, but undeniably resolute. While still always undercut by this tragic melancholy. Without context, it's a somber tune that sets a mood well enough. With context, it perfectly encapsulates the central theme of Mass Effect; disparate elements coming together to face down unimaginable adversity with dignity.
I skipped through some of the first parts and as soon as I heard ODST I immediately froze in awe. I forgot just how much heart went into that small game. One of the only games that doesn't main a spartan, and it tells such a sad and depressing story. And the music shows that. Fucking beautiful game. I went back and listened to what I skipped.
I think Gregory makes a really good point when he cracks that joke about Leaving Earth and how that's not really the sound of the world being destroyed or people running away. He walks back a bit by saying "I'm sure it's a dynamic moment" to be polite, but I really don't think he has to because the only thing he's partly mistaken about is how this piece is being used. That scene is by and large, really slow, and it's the exact opposite of dynamic. It's trauma in musical form. You've failed. You can't do anything. You, the hero, are leaving those you swore to protect to die, because as it stands you can't do anything to help them. This was the one event you spent every moment thus far to prevent, you saw it coming from the very beginning. It feels inevitable, inescapable. The only strong sounds aren't really even part of the melody, they're the characteristic sound of the reapers themselves, as they enact apocalyptic devastation before your helpless eyes. The piece isn't just somber and reflective, it's downright numb and disassociative.
I think this is an excellent example of the trouble with video game music and commentary surrounding it; Often times, it is very reliant on context to get the full meaning. As well, people who don't play video games (more especially, games that are very heavy on story) tend to have an idea as to what video games are, and it's an understandably narrow view. So when powerful music is thrown in to an event, telling the story of the protagonist's failure, it's probably simply confusing.
I almost feel like the commentary would have been better if contextualized. He’s missing the meaning of what’s going on in the piece and I feel like that’s such an important part of music in general. Maybe I’m missing the point of this type of video but the mass effect 3 opinion got me. Op is completely right that this piece is extremely traumatic in the context of the story. The hero has failed and is now watching everything fall down around him.
@@AdIgnem Yeah, it's definitely different, just like analyzing any part of a symphony by itself is going to be very different than when hearing how it functions as a part of the whole. Both are interesting. I'd love to see pieces analyzed by the same person before and after playing the game, but that's not the most realistic wish.
ODST's ost is disgustingly good. The way they lay out the songs out with the piano coming in and out is crazy. It's right up there with Ace Combat for me. You should give it a try if you need a new game to play. Not many games have an atmosphere as perfectly done as ODST, especially when you're exploring at the ambient tracks get going.
1:59:41 "I'm trying to think of a composer from the long past where, maybe our emotional response today 200 years later is different than what the composer intended" Julius Fučík's Entrance of the Gladiators.
I found it very interesting that he couldn’t tell that the saxophone in deference for darkness is very much actually a saxophone. You can literally hear the breath and the pads clicking in the recording and it sounds more real than any sample or midi saxophone in existence.
To be fair some sample based libraries will actually incorporate things like breathing and tactile instrument sounds to sound more realistic and natural
Dancing Mad is a great piece and I'm glad that it inspired such an insightful discussion. It was one of the pieces that inspired me to become an organist. Having also had the opportunity to hear a live performance, one contributing factor that may have affected your perception of its depth is that the SNES was limited in the number of sounds it could simultaneously produce (I believe the exact number is three [EDIT: it's 8, thank you Vithigar]). The original version therefore has to use tricks to essentially get you to continue to hear notes that are not being played, particularly in the sections with slowly stacking chords such as the introduction. In an interview of Uematsu conducted by Soken, Uematsu mentioned that he personally prefers newer and fully orchestrated versions of his early works because they more fully capture his intent as a composer by removing many of the limitations imposed by the sound chips he had to work with. At the performance I saw, the arranger (who I believe may have been Uematsu himself, as this was Distant Worlds) took some liberties to express Dancing Mad without replicating the technical limitations, and hearing denser, more complete chords in several sections added a lot to the experience.
The thing about Leaving Earth from Mass Effect 3 is that the repetition is familiar, theres echoes of the main themes from the previous games, the lingering prescence of the bombastic, adventurous, exciting sounds of the past victorious battles, but there is no victory here, and what can be saved is only ever going to be a scarred remnant of what was
Great choices in this one! One of my favorite things about "Leaving Earth" is that the big distorted base sound is actually the sound of the reapers throughout the game. The sound is part of the music, and also happening in the scene with the characters reacting to it.
Thanks for using the original snes version of Dancing Mad. It really shows how far VGM had come, and how eager it was to burst out from the limitations of the technology.
I love the running gag of showing everyone Central City lmao. But the song is based off of Diamond Dust Zone act 1 from Sonic 3D blast. It would be fun to have one of your guests react to both Central City and the original Diamond Dust Zone back to back as a sort of "and this is what it's supposed to sound like".
I’ll be honest, I feel sad for some musicians and composers that they “no longer can be impressed” by certain musical things. The 8 bit and 16 bit sounds are not comparable to a full orchestra recorded in high definition, but….sometimes, the chiptune audio soundscape is superior. The synthetic strings and drums are superior. Because it’s not always ABOUT orchestras and live performance. Sometimes the magic exists in completely synthesized sound and music. As much as I can appreciate a technically impressive piece with modulation and subtle dynamics and rhythms, I think you can get lost in the sauce, so to speak. Is the music catchy? Is it enjoyable to listen to? In the case of video games, is it interesting enough to ENJOY hearing it loop every 2 minutes and not care that it doesn’t progress into a 4-6 minute arrangement? I think it’s important to NOT get “bored” by simplicity. To not always be deeming things as “lesser” if they don’t innovate or break new ground in the field of music. The best analogy I can give is that even some Michelin star chefs enjoy a good fast food burger every now and then. I think pretension can seep in and make me lose respect for someone if they are always in a rigid definition of what is “worthy” or “unworthy” of consideration in the musical field.
I agree in some ways. For me what matters the most in music is a catchy melody. I dont necessarily enjoy a song just because it has a catchy melody but if it doesnt have one, I definitely wont find the song interesting no matter how good everything else is.
Different people have different needs, in the same way a metalhead might feel out of place listening to EDM, someone who lives and breathes complex and lively music might not get much out listening to synths and repetition. Taking your analogy: Even if a Michelin star chef is not above eating fast food, it's going to be a tall order convincing them that fast food is anything even remotely special.
I completed the conservatory for violin in Canada. I have close to 20 years dedicated to music (I'm 27 as of writing this) and you are correct. I can dissect a piece of music into basic components (tempo, measure, key, instruments...), I can write an essay on any subject from the music of the Middle ages to the music of the Classical Era and everything in between. During COVID, I played the violin for my neighbors whenever we did the 8pm applause for the nearby hospital. Due to the size and magnitude of the buildings where I live, my 'concerts' had a captive audience of 700 people, give or take. But I can't be wowed by most musical media anymore. I've lost the wow factor. I can't go into a piece of musical media without immediately preparing to take it apart, see what it's made of, and think of essay concepts. We have a culture of busking where I live. When I was a child, I was able to spend hours during the summer listening to hurdygurdy, harp, bagpipes, you name it. Now, I walk through the streets and I hear the mistakes, I 'correct' (in my mind, I'd never go up to a stranger and berate them) the performers on their slipups. I don't wish this on anyone.
Games are really good at doing motifs. A lot of games you only need to hear a few notes and you can visulise the character, the game, even what you were specifically doing or feeling when you hear them.
"Leaving Earth" still gives me chills, despite hearing it and playing the game a million times. It carries such weight with it, especially seeing Anderson salute you and send you off knowing it may be the last time he see's you.
*Gregory talks about cavemen striking rocks* My mind: 'When apes struck flint on flint, some watched the sparks, others merely danced' (From Octavia Prime Trailer)
The implications of this quote are almost ridiculously rich given how infused with dualism Warframe is as a text. It AGGRESSIVELY characterizes Octavia as good. Sure, the infestation is terrifying and violent, the void is vast and destructive. Smash them together and they form impressive weapons. They can also make music. You can be faced with the void and choose music. "Dream not of what you are, but of what you want to be." Cool ahh game.
A suggestion I had to throw into the soup of music selections is “Approaching Cynthia” followed by the “Cynthia Battle Theme” from Pokémon Diamond and Pearl. The tracks are played sequentially and contextualize each other beautifully. This combined with Cynthia being the penultimate fight in the story and genuinely quite difficult has caused the tracks to create a instant reaction to anyone from my generation of players. I’m addition to that point in the game Cynthia had been nothing but a supportive character that had given you advice and help. Which makes the music even more stark and almost gives Cynthia an air of menace.
What you two discussed at around 18 minutes in about the stretching and pulling within opera singing was really interesting. It's something I hear everyday in all sorts of different music, yet I never paid attention to it happening. You gave me another reason to "listen with intent" for a lack of a better word!
One of my favourite details from Dancing Mad involves the toccata-esque organ in phase 3. Right before the dramatic harmonic shift down to a minor tonality, you hear Kefka's leitmotif played in the bass while we're still in the initial major tonality. It then immediately repeats the same thing but now in a minor tonality, as if no matter how hard Kefka tries to attain some sort of divinity, his true nature will still sneak in and poison the proverbial well. The music itself starts off emulating western ilturgical traditions, before being tainted and dragged down to the darker tonality of minor. Really neat detail, especially considering Uematsu is self-taught!
Two guilty gear songs? I'm spoiled. Interesting that the break in Extras and Drift happen on such a similar time scale, truly Daisuke's vision. I know he loves to have that sort of shift in nearly every song, but I've never thought to track exactly when those take place. The one that would break the mold might be Vanish into Dark, because it does leave off with the change rather than returning to the main theme. Also, for when you hear these songs while playing GG, it will start up on round start and will just stop when someone wins two rounds. It is almost comical how songs like Baiken's theme take so long to get into that a match might be over before you get to the chorus. I'm sure some players haven't even reached some song shifts outside of long round 3s or training mode (where all the tracks loop).
I agree marco has spoiled us. I haven't checked but what would be interesting is if this same timing of these shifts is just relegated to the songs of the valentine siblings or is it all tracks. Or maybe even just certain tracks.
I interpret those changes as a hint to the characters, Zato song ends completely differently from the start, because he's a different person than he was before, but Elphelt doesn't stop being any of the 2 voices in the song, because that's who she discovered herself as, it might not be in every aong, but that's how I interpret it, Daisuke really is a good composer.
To add context to Deference for Darkness, its free form to reflect the gameplay you get put into in the sort of hub night time section of the game while you're separated from your squadmates due to the drop going pear shaped. Your pod gets blown into several buildings and you make a harder landing than the rest of your squad, knocking you unconscious for a day. You're not necessarily fighting for your life, you're scouring the abandoned and occupied city scape for any sign of your squad because you have zero clue whether they're alive and fighting or if they died before they even hit the ground. I'm not aware if you've played ODST already, but its a great game and it's on the master chief collection on steam.
I think In The Balance is one of the best examples of a song designed to perfectly loop in the background when you are focusing on the fight. Doesn't push to the front of your mind but has enough presence and is fun enough that kinda drowns out distracting thoughts and lets you get into the flow of combat.
1:11:55 A funny thing about this remark about software having a hard time doing a natural, proper sounding Saxaphone, is that Greg isn't alone in that opinion. Stephen Walking did a couple songs for a Rocket League soundtrack featuring the song Glide, and he couldn't find a source that he was impressed with, so the man just got a Sax, and recorded himself playing instead. Ignoring the fact that I'm 99.99% that the Sax from Deferrence for Darkness was and actual Sax, its a funny story I think of
The fact that the legendary (no pun intended) ost for Zelda was made in one night and was basically an attempt to "just make something else" since they couldn't use another song is something I will never forget from now on
For the placement of songs in gameplay in guilty gear. Yes they just end when the game ends; the rounds at most can take up 4 1/2 minutes meaning most of the songs cant even end and others like Let Me Carve Your Way cant get to there climax and are almost hidden from the players.
1:54:12 Good question from Gregory. Sometimes if the developers want the music to line up with the fight they program it so that it loops until specific things happens in the fight like the bosses health reaching a specific %. I also think with at least 1 boss in that specific game they increased the health of the boss so that you get to see more of it's attacks and hear more of the music because once people started outgearing the fight it simply died too fast to be enjoyable for newcomers.
This is I think SOMEWHAT uncommon though. FFXIV ties it to phases sometimes. But the best example of this I have seen is in FF7 Remake and Rebirth. Those compositions are so seamless that they seem to flow throughout the battle but they are using very carefully designed triggers and loops. Its a marvel really. Another great example is Herald of Darkness from Alan Wake 2. The original song with all loops included is something like 28 minutes even if the song on the OST is only like 13. I think its a fair question from a musicians standpoint to ask "why would any composer not want their full piece to be heard". And to find that answer look no further than the existence of the Distant Worlds concerts. These shows tour every year and sell out because the music is so deeply emotionally connected to the story that it transcends the music beyond what a stand alone piece might be able to achieve. As a result composers like Soken and Uematsu are revered as true legends. Now its absolutely possible to do this with just a piece of music. But think of how incredible a piece of music has to be to achieve that status. you can listen to a thousand, thousand pieces before you find something that is on the level of a Beethoven's 9th Symphony.
Yeah, most FFXIV fights are scripted in a way to line up with the music, not even on a phase-by-phase basis but all the way down to an attack-by-attack basis, especially ones with hard enrages. There are several fights in that game where I know exactly what mechanic comes next just from where in the song we are.
Killer Instinct has something like this if I remember correctly. It’s a fighting game but the music can evolve with the fight, like matching a big combo with a musical crescendo, so the music has to change dynamically depending on the fight itself. I watched a doc here on youtube that talked about it and it’s really interesting. If I can find it I’ll try to link it in case you folks are interested. Edit: Didn’t take me as long as I thought lol. It’s a video called Making The Audio of Killer Instinct on a channel called Hold Back to Block, segment I’m referring to starts at 39:05.
In the future Necessary Discrepancy might be a better song to cater to guests' prog taste than Drift or Extras, I believe Daisuke Ishiwatari has said it was his favorite song to work on and also the reason an album release got that name.
I mean every song of guilty gear strive are very good to be honest. And even though most of it is prog rock I've rarely seen people judging the osts put the exact same songs at the top.
Always love to see dancing mad, but the following commentary was top tier, loved hearing Gregory's thoughtfulness. We don't just come to hear the music, we're here for outside (/professional) perspectives!
Always love how diligent he is when listening to these pieces. Not just oh this is good or this is mid, very valuable critique of the music and how it could get even better. Anyone who has the privilege of working with him must be thrilled every time.
that very low note in Leaving Earth is the reapers, In some ways a reference to the horn of the tripods from War of the Worlds. I think Close in the Distance from FF14 could be an interesting to play for someone.
Worth noting how long and multi-stage the Kefka battle is. You are literally traveling up a giant God-like being in stages, each one more "angelic" than the previous. The choir and organ really underline Kefka's obsessions with his own godhood and power. It's SUCH a good boss theme.
In GGStrive the way the songs work is that they just... Play. Typically if you have the song selection set to Auto it will automatically pick a song based on one of the two characters in the match, and just- *Play.* It doesn't reset as the round changes or anything, it's one solid stretch of music that keeps playing until the match ends, and as a result it tends to rise and swell as the match gets more intense. So as an example, you'll only hear a section like "WHEN THE VIOLENT STORM IS OVEEEER" or "I fell down alot", towards the end of an *unusually long and close match.* It's not just the climax of the song, it's the climax of what is likely one of the most intense back and forths the player has had in GG. Or, as another potential example, it's the song youre listening to while practicing that character in the training mode. So you'll only hear the emotional climax to their character as you spend more time learning who they are in gameplay as well.
One thing that I don't hear many people mention is the additional difficulty for a format like FF6 Dancing Mad where the composer needs to create movements to a piece, where each movement can loop forever and not get too old while actually playing the game. The official OST is just each segment looped a couple times, but when playing the game, the experience for each person varied depending on how long they took to progress past each phase of the boss fight. I wish more people acknowledged this additional complexity when doing reviews.
In response to Greg's comments after "In The Balance". It's important to give the context that for many players hearing the music for the first time can be really important. In the case of Final Fantasy XIV, these raids are delivered in like 3-5 month gaps with other new content so part of experiencing the new content is often playing the raid and listening to this wonderful music. Guilty Gear Strive is very similar, where each of these songs accompanies a new character that is released after several months. So yeah, while these songs will eventually not be heard fully through normal gameplay -- for fans of the games they absolutely are excited for new music and will often listen to them outside of the game to appreciate them more. As a suggestion, I'd recommend showing Greg some of the Final Fantasy 7 Remake arrangements because they're purposely design to have multiple looping sections with transitions in between. Bonus if there's a gameplay video accompanying the music to show how the transitions look visually too.
In a similar sense, I'd recommend the battle themes from Xenoblade 3, which also shift between different sections based on context, including a proper ending for many tracks rather than a fading loop. Also, listen to the official soundtrack uploaded by Max G. rather than the reconstructed versions that were uploaded soon after the game's release.
I watched through the whole Dancing Mad segment, because Dancing Mad is such a brilliant song and I adored hearing the back and forth about how you two feel about it (and also the Distant Worlds version to a lesser extent), and it was absolutely enthralling.
Leaving Earth really brings back a lot of old memory... It hit hard, specially if you are a big fan of Mass Effect 1 and 2... Suddenly, everything is lost, you ran away left behind many who can't be saved... All things you did in the first 2 games felt meaningless at that moment... No matter how heroic you were, you are a now just a homeless person, watched their home burn under enemy fires.
I say this without a sliver of an exaggeration, this video is the best “reaction” video I’ve ever seen so far. The communication, the openness/willingness to new subject, bringing own perspective, and the element of scholarship. Thank you.
I strive very hard to provide content that is genuine, true, transformative, and most importantly interesting and educational. This comment means the world to me and I appreciate it immensely.
I am enjoying Gregory immensely! All these feelings I haven't been able to put into words while playing my favorite childhood games he is so easily articulating.
Idk if this a poscast series but i need both you guys doing this more often. Lol I dont fully understand everything that goes into making music great but find it so fascinating hearing professionals breakdown and give their thoughts on the composition.
For the Final Fantasy 14 instances and raids the sound design is incredibly on point. There are a lot of cases where when doing a raid there is a general theme that plays in the background which steps up with additional layers once combat begins. When combat ends, the music naturally morphs back into its calmer state until you enter combat again. It makes for a very dynamic atmosphere that adds to the impact of what you are doing in the game from moment to moment. Similarly, final bosses of noteworthy raids and encounters tend to have a theme all their own, and the fights are tailored to fill a certain amount of time. The songs in these fights typically loop indefinitely through the fight and when the opponent falls there is typically a small cutscene showing their death animation. It is during this brief time period the music fades in timing with the scene regardless of where the current loop is, and then the victory fanfare plays and that's that. There are so many subtle things that they have done within the game pertaining to visuals and sound and they are done so perfectly at times you'd never even notice them.
Enjoy Mr Greg's first visit, and enjoyed this one as well! He's got such a respectful approach and knows his stuff. Super cool. A little sad at the start when he said he'd not listened to any VGM since the last vid he did with ya hahahaha but I definitely keep in mind the impact the context behind VGM can have on the experience overall..
Hi marco! love your stuff and guests as always. I was thinking while you played the main theme for legend of zelda that maybe it'd be a interesting concept to show guests the evolution of certain themes like this one from game to game, not only with the sound quality and composition but also might be worth it to showcase leitmotifs in certain games that have them to convey a game's identity and progression through music more thouroughly than with just one song. Keep up the good work!
I believe one of the brothers sadly died this year. I do not remember which one, but regardless I hope his legacy can live on and may he rest in peace.
@@jurtheorc8117 it was Geoff Follin. Tim is often credited the most for the music pieces, when in fact many of the most well known pieces were written as a collaborative effort.
A whole video about the Follin brothers would be great. I would love to hear the reactions to the Boss fight from Plok, that one Silver Surfer level, and the Solstice title screen
I've really been loving these videos, and I'd like to recommend some tracks from Okami for future episodes! Okami is so weirdly underrepresented in discussions about game music. I'd love to see it get some time in the spotlight. Tracks like Ryoshima Coast I and II, Ushiwaka's Dance, and Demon Lord Ninetales are all great choices, but my biggest recommendation are the 3 tracks that play during the final boss: Emperor of Eternal Darkness, Reset (Thank You version), and The Sun Rises. Okami has such great musical storytelling, and this sequence of tracks is just phenomenal.
I think I can easily say that many players don't treat In The Balance as simply just background music. (Especially if you're using it to grind from lvl 90 - 100.) It's one of the highlights and for those who love lore it just added on further to Ul'dah's lore since it's essentially an Ul'dahn hymn and shows a bit moe of their beliefs about Nald'thal. Plus it's always fun if you can get the music to sync up with his ultimate move with the balancing of the scales. It makes it more cinematic.
ALL of tim follins music is under appriciated the man is a genuine genius and madman. ive been waiting to hear you bring some up, and as ever the Pictionary theme is a great choice!
Those two hours and twelve and a half minutes vanished somewhere without me even noticing. The only break I had to take was to listen to Mr. Uematsu's live performance of Dancing Mad with his prog rock group. This video was such a pleasure again.
I would say Dancing Mad is the greatest piece of 16bit video game music of all time. And top 10 of gaming music of all time. To have produced that on a 16bit console is unreal, and it fit that epic game well.
The most amazing thing about Guilty Gear, is that since it's inception the game's designer was also the composer, writer and character designer Daisuke Ishiwatari. In fact, in the first game, Ishiwatari wrote the story, characters and music, provided the character illustrations, and even voiced the main character. This series is his baby.
Leaving Earth is in my browsers favorites for as long as i can think back. That "reaper noise" which is inserted here as those deep hitting bass notes is just so good. It always takes me back to the feeling i had when i first played it as a 20 year old young man. When the Reapers shot down the evac-ship with the kid in it.. i took that shit personal.
very halo 3 is the hero story finish the fight ....ODST is a trooper dropped behind enemy lines of your fallen city in the rain and after waking up you have to try and find your squad or what's left .. sleuthing and investigating your way threw the city.... I love them both
It would be nice if Marco would research the games a bit more, so he can add more context to the people reacting, like he does for Bloodborne, for examples. Also, did he ever show the Dovakhiin (main menu) song to his guests? Two examples for context: Odst is standalone and that's exploration music (at night) The distorted background sounds are from mass effect 3s reapers, the big aliens that are the sole reason for leaving your home planets
@@DarthSpiderMario Not saying he has to spoil the game to himself or his guests just for a track from the game's OST. More-so saying that it should be kept in mind that the track on it's own isn't a complete experience most of the time.
Love this man! The way he writes off the things that are interesting for him and how he explains some parts while listening is great. And he didn't say all that he pointed out that's for sure! Have a good day, Marco.
40k mechanicus is honestly one of my favorite OSTs. Up there with xenosaga 3's (wish youtube didnt have issues with Xenosagas OST myself...). Noosphere is so good. Reminds me of listening to far above the clouds by mike oldfield
I know it is a bit the purpose of the channel but I still think that the context of the piece deserves more attention. For example in soulsborne most of the time the cry and slash of the boss while not tied to the music is an entire part of it.
Great video as always! I love that Greg is down to run the mile and listen to full pieces; in that vain, I'm curious to how he would react to the full Kulve Taroth melody
There's this Masahiro Sakurai video he just released where he talks about Famicom and NES sound and music tech, and part of it is about how the NES didn't have all the tech that the Famicom had, so some or many games have different tracks in the Famicom and the NES - including the Zelda Main Theme itself.
Garth added into the mix would make the most magical and "unique" music listening session I think this channel would ever know, I love the idea wholeheartedly in a twisted sort of way
speaking on saxophones, it's funny to me when music-tubers hear/comment on the song that plays in Animal Crossing New Horizons in Nook's Cranny in the final hour before it closes for the evening (title is "Shop Closing"), there's clearly a soprano saxophone but people think it's a clarinet, a french horn, an english horn or oboe, anything but a saxophone! The timbre can be hard to pin down if you're not really familiar with it.
I’d love to see another one of these because there are a lot of really incredible gaming tracks out there worthy of proper musical critique and appreciation. I highly recommend examining the Donkey Kong Country, Super Mario Kart, Elder Scrolls series, Halo series, and many more that I can’t even think of right now. But there are so many impressive orchestral tracks and retro tracks across a vast multitude of games that would be enough to do an entire series on.
There's a coincidentally large amount of...church music(?) in this session! Honestly, if it was possible I would have say it's best to showcase Dancing Mad in The Black Mages' arrangement, though I don't think there's an official version available to listen on youtube. I definitely have a bit of bias though because I also think it's the best arrangement of it. Oh and if you get a chance to recommend anything to Gregory again, Buying goods at Palmira is probably in the vein of what he's looking for in the Sonic track.
Gregory and Marco. Thanks for listening to Deference for Darkness. So, for the record, ALL the instruments are real
and recorded live. If I remember correctly, I ended up using two different sax players.
Nice, Marty! It’s a great piece. Still working my way through the games slowly 🙏 all the best!
Your best piece, IMHO.
I am so inspired by your music. Is there a program best to start writing with classical instruments?
Interesting that Gregory was so certain the sax was synthetic
Your music is such a powerful tool not only for carrying the emotions inside the game, but it STILL invokes a huge sense of nostalgia listening to it nowadays. Thank you for giving us that.
You know - I may not agree much with Marco or his guests, but I respect Marco's guests reactions a lot more than the normal cam reaction youtubers because I often notice them writing notes while listening. That's already a ton more respect given to the artists, when you note down your thoughts so you can articulate them better later. It shouldn't be old school, yet it is.
I could never write my thoughts about something at the same time I'm experiencing it, if I do my brain says I'm losing part of the experience for write in the side about it, I prefer condense my thoughts and/or do a "re-experience" of the topic after, than interrupt my brain from put all his focus on the 1st experience itself
@@WildspeakerYT Why do you not agree??
@@WildspeakerYTyour point about experiencing something for the first time is 100% valid but in this case it’s reacting to music and giving your opinion on it. It’s like asking someone to give you an opinion on a health examination. You don’t want someone to say something instantly, you want them to take notes and think
@@WildspeakerYT I think it must be a trained/aquired skill learned in the profession he is in because if you tell from the breakdown of the sonic song it is very obvious that he is able to both write down notes and still keep listening to the song or he would not have been able to keep noting down things that kept happening with timestamps and have such a good insight on what was going on in the song outside of those moments.
Wait what do you not agree much about? 😂
The saxophonist in Halo 3 odst is Dewey Marler. He's an old friend of my sax teacher, the sax was fully played in studio so it threw me off when he thought the sax sound was synthesized cuz its not 😅
Aside from that i really liked his commentary on it, it was really insightful to hear!
He never said it was synthesized. He said sampled.
@@itsaUSBline He's still wrong, Deference for Darkness' sax was recorded live in studio and wasn't assembled via a program. Halo's OST utilizes most of an orchestra, choir and band.
@@itsaUSBlinestill wrong it’s a live recording and I found it very striking that he didn’t notice it was live saxophone because as a saxophone player it sounds the most real saxophone that you can possibly get you can literally hear the pads clicking and the breathing in the recording
@@MrPikaGammer the orchestra was the northwest sinfonia in seattle, great group! They're the ones that play for alot of video games in the Washington area
Yeah I was confused as to why he says this, especially considering the Sax sound very real and very great to me. My best guess is that he might have a preconception or bias towards believing most to all Video Music is just composed and arranged electronically. (which to be fair it started that way and many soundtracks still are). Its a testament to the explosive success of halo that back in the early 2000s they were hiring excellent orchestras and performers like this for their soundtracks.
Its like showing your cool uncle your toys and he really shows interest in them because he genuinely likes these toys and knows so much about them(a professor of toys?).Great guy.
at 55 minutes in, "... i know people want to hear music instead of just yammering".
As a certified person who lacks the technical understanding to explain what I like or dislike in music in detail, I can confirm that I am here for the yammering.
For the most part I am already familiar with the music but I find all of the discussions fascinating because they are coming from a totally different angle than I would be coming in at and I always leave one of these videos with a little bit more knowledge and understanding because of it.
I never mind a musician being nonplussed by a video game OST, because
1. A lot of the emotional weight of a soundtrack comes from it's context, to give an analogy while a butter connoisseur might have different tastes in butter as it is, video game butter is usually best served with the dish it's used in, and removed of that it *can* very easily feel slightly empty, especially since VGM is usually meant to loop a bit.
2. More importantly it makes me go "oh this person is actually taking the thing they're being presented with seriously" so to speak they don't separate expectations between video games and classically composed music for music's sake. To circle back to the butter analogy, a butter connoisseur can either consider all butter from a specific brand to be no better than margarine and be surprised to find out they were wrong, or they could just hold the butter to the standards of butter even before assessing it in a fair fashion.
Yes the butter analogy was way more succint in my head lol
You butter think up a new anology for next time
Video game music without context is like traditional music without lyrics.
I also think that the point of the pieces chosen isn't to emotionally destroy the guests so he's not selecting for "emotional damage".
It's the same with movie music. It's meant to go with the movie and without the latter, it can feel a bit empty. (Opening credits tend to work by themselves).
I absolutely feel point #1. As another example from Final Fantasy. Anyone can listen to, say, "Tomorrow and Tomorrow" from FFXIV and say that it has emotional impact from the way it is composed and performed. However without the context of the story leading up to everything in the story and without the delivery of the song in the moment it is performed in the game, there is a dissonance from player to random listener to how powerful the song is. Whereas someone listening could say it's a beautiful song, a player will be crying their eyes out because of the context and build up of the piece.
Leaving Earth is one of my absolute favorites. Knowing the story and what's happening in that moment, it gets me every time.
For me the arrengemnet they did for the ending name And End, Once and For All is also a masterpiece, it keeps the motive but is also weirdly hopeful and sad at the same time.
@@Ms666slayerDefinitely. Especially the version from the extended version. Just… what a punctuation.
Leaving Earth is a great example of why context is _especially_ important with video game OSTs. The somber chord progression, punctuated by the lone high piano melody, before being overwhelmed by ominous, deep, heavy, almost metallic chords. Humanity and Shepard, this fragile hope being overwhelmed by the immense pressure of the Reaper invasion. And then the slow introduction of strings and horns, building off of the piano, representing the alliances that Shepard must form with the other races, building to a motif that is never triumphant, not quite hopeful, but undeniably resolute. While still always undercut by this tragic melancholy.
Without context, it's a somber tune that sets a mood well enough. With context, it perfectly encapsulates the central theme of Mass Effect; disparate elements coming together to face down unimaginable adversity with dignity.
I skipped through some of the first parts and as soon as I heard ODST I immediately froze in awe. I forgot just how much heart went into that small game. One of the only games that doesn't main a spartan, and it tells such a sad and depressing story. And the music shows that. Fucking beautiful game.
I went back and listened to what I skipped.
I think Gregory makes a really good point when he cracks that joke about Leaving Earth and how that's not really the sound of the world being destroyed or people running away. He walks back a bit by saying "I'm sure it's a dynamic moment" to be polite, but I really don't think he has to because the only thing he's partly mistaken about is how this piece is being used. That scene is by and large, really slow, and it's the exact opposite of dynamic.
It's trauma in musical form. You've failed. You can't do anything. You, the hero, are leaving those you swore to protect to die, because as it stands you can't do anything to help them.
This was the one event you spent every moment thus far to prevent, you saw it coming from the very beginning. It feels inevitable, inescapable. The only strong sounds aren't really even part of the melody, they're the characteristic sound of the reapers themselves, as they enact apocalyptic devastation before your helpless eyes. The piece isn't just somber and reflective, it's downright numb and disassociative.
I think this is an excellent example of the trouble with video game music and commentary surrounding it; Often times, it is very reliant on context to get the full meaning. As well, people who don't play video games (more especially, games that are very heavy on story) tend to have an idea as to what video games are, and it's an understandably narrow view. So when powerful music is thrown in to an event, telling the story of the protagonist's failure, it's probably simply confusing.
100% on both this comment and the reply, completely agree
@@AdIgnem So it's like watching a movie like 2/3 of the way in, a plot point might not make sense because you weren't there for all of the journey.
I almost feel like the commentary would have been better if contextualized. He’s missing the meaning of what’s going on in the piece and I feel like that’s such an important part of music in general. Maybe I’m missing the point of this type of video but the mass effect 3 opinion got me. Op is completely right that this piece is extremely traumatic in the context of the story. The hero has failed and is now watching everything fall down around him.
@@AdIgnem Yeah, it's definitely different, just like analyzing any part of a symphony by itself is going to be very different than when hearing how it functions as a part of the whole. Both are interesting. I'd love to see pieces analyzed by the same person before and after playing the game, but that's not the most realistic wish.
ODST's ost is disgustingly good. The way they lay out the songs out with the piano coming in and out is crazy. It's right up there with Ace Combat for me. You should give it a try if you need a new game to play. Not many games have an atmosphere as perfectly done as ODST, especially when you're exploring at the ambient tracks get going.
ODST's soundtrack is simply terrific
@@imgkaizer You could shorten that to just "ODST is simply terrific"
too bad the game can be beaten in one sitting lol
1:59:41 "I'm trying to think of a composer from the long past where, maybe our emotional response today 200 years later is different than what the composer intended"
Julius Fučík's Entrance of the Gladiators.
Ah, good ol’ circus music. Definitely not the intended theme, lol.
9:50 Oh Marco, dear Marco, I have bad news for you… 1986 was almost 40 years ago, not twenty.
Stop it, your going to give me a midlife crisis.
@@leonbarry5403me too and I’m only 24
Shhh the 80s are ALWAYS 20 years ago.
OH GOD anyways, skibidi rizz ohio fanum tax.
I spat out my drink 😂
I found it very interesting that he couldn’t tell that the saxophone in deference for darkness is very much actually a saxophone. You can literally hear the breath and the pads clicking in the recording and it sounds more real than any sample or midi saxophone in existence.
To be fair some sample based libraries will actually incorporate things like breathing and tactile instrument sounds to sound more realistic and natural
Dancing Mad is a great piece and I'm glad that it inspired such an insightful discussion. It was one of the pieces that inspired me to become an organist.
Having also had the opportunity to hear a live performance, one contributing factor that may have affected your perception of its depth is that the SNES was limited in the number of sounds it could simultaneously produce (I believe the exact number is three [EDIT: it's 8, thank you Vithigar]). The original version therefore has to use tricks to essentially get you to continue to hear notes that are not being played, particularly in the sections with slowly stacking chords such as the introduction. In an interview of Uematsu conducted by Soken, Uematsu mentioned that he personally prefers newer and fully orchestrated versions of his early works because they more fully capture his intent as a composer by removing many of the limitations imposed by the sound chips he had to work with. At the performance I saw, the arranger (who I believe may have been Uematsu himself, as this was Distant Worlds) took some liberties to express Dancing Mad without replicating the technical limitations, and hearing denser, more complete chords in several sections added a lot to the experience.
Great read 🫶
Theme of Love and Rydia’s Theme from 4 pushed me to take up piano. Cheers!
SNES could do 8 simultaneous voices. You might be thinking of the NES which was 3 tone voices + noise (drums) + sample channel.
@@Vithigar Edited my comment, thanks for the correction! I was indeed confusing the SNES and NES.
I'm not sure why this was rec'd to me, but I watched the entire thing and enjoyed it. Subscribed!
The thing about Leaving Earth from Mass Effect 3 is that the repetition is familiar, theres echoes of the main themes from the previous games, the lingering prescence of the bombastic, adventurous, exciting sounds of the past victorious battles, but there is no victory here, and what can be saved is only ever going to be a scarred remnant of what was
Also in game the reaper sounds are punctuating the lower notes. It hits man
Skipping to Gherman and getting jumpscared was not on my bingo card for this video 😂
That’s what you get 😂
serves you right :)
HE KNOWS WE SKIP TO OUR FAVES, SCATTER
@@HazeEmryNot getting caught today. Heh!
BLOODBORNE...
Great choices in this one! One of my favorite things about "Leaving Earth" is that the big distorted base sound is actually the sound of the reapers throughout the game. The sound is part of the music, and also happening in the scene with the characters reacting to it.
Really enjoyed the Dancing Mad reaction and discussion after that!! very enjoyable. huge props for mister Gregory.
Thanks for using the original snes version of Dancing Mad. It really shows how far VGM had come, and how eager it was to burst out from the limitations of the technology.
I love the running gag of showing everyone Central City lmao. But the song is based off of Diamond Dust Zone act 1 from Sonic 3D blast. It would be fun to have one of your guests react to both Central City and the original Diamond Dust Zone back to back as a sort of "and this is what it's supposed to sound like".
22:20 "The internet doesn't make me think. Sometimes I think ABOUT the internet." Those sir, are VERY wise words.
Those are very*
And now I make my exit, before I get shot.
Damn he ran away
Don’t worry, we’re get him next time.
That's a real saxophone.
Fr when he said it’s not a real sax I was so confused that sounds absolutely real to me
I’m of the mind that if he heard that same sax in a medium he took more seriously he’d not call it a fake sax.
I’ll be honest, I feel sad for some musicians and composers that they “no longer can be impressed” by certain musical things. The 8 bit and 16 bit sounds are not comparable to a full orchestra recorded in high definition, but….sometimes, the chiptune audio soundscape is superior. The synthetic strings and drums are superior. Because it’s not always ABOUT orchestras and live performance. Sometimes the magic exists in completely synthesized sound and music.
As much as I can appreciate a technically impressive piece with modulation and subtle dynamics and rhythms, I think you can get lost in the sauce, so to speak. Is the music catchy? Is it enjoyable to listen to? In the case of video games, is it interesting enough to ENJOY hearing it loop every 2 minutes and not care that it doesn’t progress into a 4-6 minute arrangement?
I think it’s important to NOT get “bored” by simplicity. To not always be deeming things as “lesser” if they don’t innovate or break new ground in the field of music. The best analogy I can give is that even some Michelin star chefs enjoy a good fast food burger every now and then. I think pretension can seep in and make me lose respect for someone if they are always in a rigid definition of what is “worthy” or “unworthy” of consideration in the musical field.
I agree in some ways. For me what matters the most in music is a catchy melody. I dont necessarily enjoy a song just because it has a catchy melody but if it doesnt have one, I definitely wont find the song interesting no matter how good everything else is.
For dancing mad specifically I do like both versions but the one thing the orchestration is always missing is Kefka's laugh
Different people have different needs, in the same way a metalhead might feel out of place listening to EDM, someone who lives and breathes complex and lively music might not get much out listening to synths and repetition.
Taking your analogy: Even if a Michelin star chef is not above eating fast food, it's going to be a tall order convincing them that fast food is anything even remotely special.
@@GamerTowerDX I don’t need them to see it as “anything special” but to not knock it or see it is lame or not worth giving it’s due.
I completed the conservatory for violin in Canada. I have close to 20 years dedicated to music (I'm 27 as of writing this) and you are correct.
I can dissect a piece of music into basic components (tempo, measure, key, instruments...), I can write an essay on any subject from the music of the Middle ages to the music of the Classical Era and everything in between.
During COVID, I played the violin for my neighbors whenever we did the 8pm applause for the nearby hospital. Due to the size and magnitude of the buildings where I live, my 'concerts' had a captive audience of 700 people, give or take.
But I can't be wowed by most musical media anymore. I've lost the wow factor. I can't go into a piece of musical media without immediately preparing to take it apart, see what it's made of, and think of essay concepts.
We have a culture of busking where I live. When I was a child, I was able to spend hours during the summer listening to hurdygurdy, harp, bagpipes, you name it. Now, I walk through the streets and I hear the mistakes, I 'correct' (in my mind, I'd never go up to a stranger and berate them) the performers on their slipups.
I don't wish this on anyone.
Games are really good at doing motifs.
A lot of games you only need to hear a few notes and you can visulise the character, the game, even what you were specifically doing or feeling when you hear them.
"Leaving Earth" still gives me chills, despite hearing it and playing the game a million times. It carries such weight with it, especially seeing Anderson salute you and send you off knowing it may be the last time he see's you.
*Gregory talks about cavemen striking rocks*
My mind: 'When apes struck flint on flint, some watched the sparks, others merely danced'
(From Octavia Prime Trailer)
Warframe quotes are incredibly good
@@Charles-wu3hw say what you will about ballas, but he was a poet and he knew it.
@@DissedRedEngie Probably knew it too well. I mean, the man was absolutely full of himself.
The implications of this quote are almost ridiculously rich given how infused with dualism Warframe is as a text.
It AGGRESSIVELY characterizes Octavia as good. Sure, the infestation is terrifying and violent, the void is vast and destructive. Smash them together and they form impressive weapons.
They can also make music. You can be faced with the void and choose music.
"Dream not of what you are, but of what you want to be."
Cool ahh game.
One of the "I will dance in the tomb of my enemies... literally" warframes 😂😂😂
1:08:09 Ha, interesting. It’s a live recording and you can actually hear the sax changing keys and the tap of the tone holes if you listen carefully.
A suggestion I had to throw into the soup of music selections is “Approaching Cynthia” followed by the “Cynthia Battle Theme” from Pokémon Diamond and Pearl.
The tracks are played sequentially and contextualize each other beautifully. This combined with Cynthia being the penultimate fight in the story and genuinely quite difficult has caused the tracks to create a instant reaction to anyone from my generation of players.
I’m addition to that point in the game Cynthia had been nothing but a supportive character that had given you advice and help. Which makes the music even more stark and almost gives Cynthia an air of menace.
What you two discussed at around 18 minutes in about the stretching and pulling within opera singing was really interesting. It's something I hear everyday in all sorts of different music, yet I never paid attention to it happening. You gave me another reason to "listen with intent" for a lack of a better word!
"Keep going" - THAT'S IT, I LOVE GREGORY WANAMAKER!
One of my favourite details from Dancing Mad involves the toccata-esque organ in phase 3. Right before the dramatic harmonic shift down to a minor tonality, you hear Kefka's leitmotif played in the bass while we're still in the initial major tonality. It then immediately repeats the same thing but now in a minor tonality, as if no matter how hard Kefka tries to attain some sort of divinity, his true nature will still sneak in and poison the proverbial well. The music itself starts off emulating western ilturgical traditions, before being tainted and dragged down to the darker tonality of minor. Really neat detail, especially considering Uematsu is self-taught!
Two guilty gear songs? I'm spoiled.
Interesting that the break in Extras and Drift happen on such a similar time scale, truly Daisuke's vision. I know he loves to have that sort of shift in nearly every song, but I've never thought to track exactly when those take place. The one that would break the mold might be Vanish into Dark, because it does leave off with the change rather than returning to the main theme.
Also, for when you hear these songs while playing GG, it will start up on round start and will just stop when someone wins two rounds. It is almost comical how songs like Baiken's theme take so long to get into that a match might be over before you get to the chorus. I'm sure some players haven't even reached some song shifts outside of long round 3s or training mode (where all the tracks loop).
I agree marco has spoiled us. I haven't checked but what would be interesting is if this same timing of these shifts is just relegated to the songs of the valentine siblings or is it all tracks. Or maybe even just certain tracks.
I interpret those changes as a hint to the characters, Zato song ends completely differently from the start, because he's a different person than he was before, but Elphelt doesn't stop being any of the 2 voices in the song, because that's who she discovered herself as, it might not be in every aong, but that's how I interpret it, Daisuke really is a good composer.
Gregory coming back is the best thing ever. Now he needs a third one, so he can truly get the most random memey stuff ever
The intense excitement I felt when I saw the Dancing Mad segment was _FORTY MINUTES LONG_ 😅😅😅
To be fair, almost half of that is just the song itself 😂
FF6 holds a special place in my heart
@@xXkrazykitsuneXx 16 :P
i did too :D
To add context to Deference for Darkness, its free form to reflect the gameplay you get put into in the sort of hub night time section of the game while you're separated from your squadmates due to the drop going pear shaped. Your pod gets blown into several buildings and you make a harder landing than the rest of your squad, knocking you unconscious for a day. You're not necessarily fighting for your life, you're scouring the abandoned and occupied city scape for any sign of your squad because you have zero clue whether they're alive and fighting or if they died before they even hit the ground. I'm not aware if you've played ODST already, but its a great game and it's on the master chief collection on steam.
Well 6 hours I believe
Loved the game. Got upset when I found out what happens to that character later on.
For Dancing Mad it helps a lot to have some of Kefkas story. Also knowing its written to be repeated in parts throughout the boss fight
I LOVE Gregory's persistance and reaction with Central City so much hahahaha
I think In The Balance is one of the best examples of a song designed to perfectly loop in the background when you are focusing on the fight. Doesn't push to the front of your mind but has enough presence and is fun enough that kinda drowns out distracting thoughts and lets you get into the flow of combat.
1:11:55 A funny thing about this remark about software having a hard time doing a natural, proper sounding Saxaphone, is that Greg isn't alone in that opinion. Stephen Walking did a couple songs for a Rocket League soundtrack featuring the song Glide, and he couldn't find a source that he was impressed with, so the man just got a Sax, and recorded himself playing instead. Ignoring the fact that I'm 99.99% that the Sax from Deferrence for Darkness was and actual Sax, its a funny story I think of
Someone in the comments posted the name of the exact Saxophonist. It's Dewey Marler
The fact that the legendary (no pun intended) ost for Zelda was made in one night and was basically an attempt to "just make something else" since they couldn't use another song is something I will never forget from now on
For the placement of songs in gameplay in guilty gear. Yes they just end when the game ends; the rounds at most can take up 4 1/2 minutes meaning most of the songs cant even end and others like Let Me Carve Your Way cant get to there climax and are almost hidden from the players.
Baiken's theme doesn't even always get past the intro
And some like Mirror of the World can sometimes don't even get to start before the match is over.
I love that Greg is listening to Central City and is like - LET HIM COOK
Gregory is such a gem!
So inredible to see a professional treating videogame music as just music and sharing his thoughts on it.
Much love ❤
1:54:12 Good question from Gregory. Sometimes if the developers want the music to line up with the fight they program it so that it loops until specific things happens in the fight like the bosses health reaching a specific %. I also think with at least 1 boss in that specific game they increased the health of the boss so that you get to see more of it's attacks and hear more of the music because once people started outgearing the fight it simply died too fast to be enjoyable for newcomers.
This is I think SOMEWHAT uncommon though. FFXIV ties it to phases sometimes. But the best example of this I have seen is in FF7 Remake and Rebirth. Those compositions are so seamless that they seem to flow throughout the battle but they are using very carefully designed triggers and loops. Its a marvel really. Another great example is Herald of Darkness from Alan Wake 2. The original song with all loops included is something like 28 minutes even if the song on the OST is only like 13.
I think its a fair question from a musicians standpoint to ask "why would any composer not want their full piece to be heard". And to find that answer look no further than the existence of the Distant Worlds concerts. These shows tour every year and sell out because the music is so deeply emotionally connected to the story that it transcends the music beyond what a stand alone piece might be able to achieve. As a result composers like Soken and Uematsu are revered as true legends. Now its absolutely possible to do this with just a piece of music. But think of how incredible a piece of music has to be to achieve that status. you can listen to a thousand, thousand pieces before you find something that is on the level of a Beethoven's 9th Symphony.
An example that comes to mind is Cocolia fight in the Honkai Star Rail.
Yeah, most FFXIV fights are scripted in a way to line up with the music, not even on a phase-by-phase basis but all the way down to an attack-by-attack basis, especially ones with hard enrages. There are several fights in that game where I know exactly what mechanic comes next just from where in the song we are.
Killer Instinct has something like this if I remember correctly. It’s a fighting game but the music can evolve with the fight, like matching a big combo with a musical crescendo, so the music has to change dynamically depending on the fight itself. I watched a doc here on youtube that talked about it and it’s really interesting. If I can find it I’ll try to link it in case you folks are interested.
Edit: Didn’t take me as long as I thought lol. It’s a video called Making The Audio of Killer Instinct on a channel called Hold Back to Block, segment I’m referring to starts at 39:05.
In the future Necessary Discrepancy might be a better song to cater to guests' prog taste than Drift or Extras, I believe Daisuke Ishiwatari has said it was his favorite song to work on and also the reason an album release got that name.
I mean every song of guilty gear strive are very good to be honest. And even though most of it is prog rock I've rarely seen people judging the osts put the exact same songs at the top.
Yeah Necessary Discrepancy is definitely my favorite song from Strive, and it's incredibly underrated.
@@itsaUSBline not my favorite but i agree that it's very underrated
@@itsaUSBlinedefinetely not my favorite, because let me carve your way exists, but definetely my second favorite
MAN what good conversations and topics. Hearing that "whats also interesting..." means you're about to be hit with a fantastic tangent.
Always a pleasure to see you with guest doing these session of discovery and exchange of thoughts
Always love to see dancing mad, but the following commentary was top tier, loved hearing Gregory's thoughtfulness. We don't just come to hear the music, we're here for outside (/professional) perspectives!
Always love how diligent he is when listening to these pieces. Not just oh this is good or this is mid, very valuable critique of the music and how it could get even better.
Anyone who has the privilege of working with him must be thrilled every time.
that very low note in Leaving Earth is the reapers, In some ways a reference to the horn of the tripods from War of the Worlds.
I think Close in the Distance from FF14 could be an interesting to play for someone.
Worth noting how long and multi-stage the Kefka battle is. You are literally traveling up a giant God-like being in stages, each one more "angelic" than the previous. The choir and organ really underline Kefka's obsessions with his own godhood and power. It's SUCH a good boss theme.
Why in gods name does the Pictionary theme go so hard wtf
In GGStrive the way the songs work is that they just... Play. Typically if you have the song selection set to Auto it will automatically pick a song based on one of the two characters in the match, and just- *Play.* It doesn't reset as the round changes or anything, it's one solid stretch of music that keeps playing until the match ends, and as a result it tends to rise and swell as the match gets more intense. So as an example, you'll only hear a section like "WHEN THE VIOLENT STORM IS OVEEEER" or "I fell down alot", towards the end of an *unusually long and close match.* It's not just the climax of the song, it's the climax of what is likely one of the most intense back and forths the player has had in GG. Or, as another potential example, it's the song youre listening to while practicing that character in the training mode. So you'll only hear the emotional climax to their character as you spend more time learning who they are in gameplay as well.
I generally feel this would work even better if they maintained the way the old games would start the music on the intro
One thing that I don't hear many people mention is the additional difficulty for a format like FF6 Dancing Mad where the composer needs to create movements to a piece, where each movement can loop forever and not get too old while actually playing the game. The official OST is just each segment looped a couple times, but when playing the game, the experience for each person varied depending on how long they took to progress past each phase of the boss fight. I wish more people acknowledged this additional complexity when doing reviews.
oh mass effect. never fails to leave its mark
Meer presence of it makes me happy
In response to Greg's comments after "In The Balance". It's important to give the context that for many players hearing the music for the first time can be really important. In the case of Final Fantasy XIV, these raids are delivered in like 3-5 month gaps with other new content so part of experiencing the new content is often playing the raid and listening to this wonderful music. Guilty Gear Strive is very similar, where each of these songs accompanies a new character that is released after several months.
So yeah, while these songs will eventually not be heard fully through normal gameplay -- for fans of the games they absolutely are excited for new music and will often listen to them outside of the game to appreciate them more.
As a suggestion, I'd recommend showing Greg some of the Final Fantasy 7 Remake arrangements because they're purposely design to have multiple looping sections with transitions in between. Bonus if there's a gameplay video accompanying the music to show how the transitions look visually too.
In a similar sense, I'd recommend the battle themes from Xenoblade 3, which also shift between different sections based on context, including a proper ending for many tracks rather than a fading loop. Also, listen to the official soundtrack uploaded by Max G. rather than the reconstructed versions that were uploaded soon after the game's release.
I'm just getting started on the video but the fact that Dancing Mad warrants a 40 minute discussion brings me joy.
I watched through the whole Dancing Mad segment, because Dancing Mad is such a brilliant song and I adored hearing the back and forth about how you two feel about it (and also the Distant Worlds version to a lesser extent), and it was absolutely enthralling.
God, the saxophone in Deference is so good. It's easily one of the best pieces of game music out there
Everytime i hear the piano in Deference for Darkness, I just get the chills
Halo and Ace combat have my favorite music of any game franchises.
Happy to hear Leaving Earth on here. I binged that trilogy all in a row and that song and intro really hit me.
Leaving Earth really brings back a lot of old memory... It hit hard, specially if you are a big fan of Mass Effect 1 and 2... Suddenly, everything is lost, you ran away left behind many who can't be saved... All things you did in the first 2 games felt meaningless at that moment... No matter how heroic you were, you are a now just a homeless person, watched their home burn under enemy fires.
I love when you let them listen to "old" tracks :D Brings back all the nostalgia and also interesting takes by your friends!
I say this without a sliver of an exaggeration, this video is the best “reaction” video I’ve ever seen so far.
The communication, the openness/willingness to new subject, bringing own perspective, and the element of scholarship.
Thank you.
I strive very hard to provide content that is genuine, true, transformative, and most importantly interesting and educational. This comment means the world to me and I appreciate it immensely.
I am enjoying Gregory immensely! All these feelings I haven't been able to put into words while playing my favorite childhood games he is so easily articulating.
Idk if this a poscast series but i need both you guys doing this more often. Lol I dont fully understand everything that goes into making music great but find it so fascinating hearing professionals breakdown and give their thoughts on the composition.
For the Final Fantasy 14 instances and raids the sound design is incredibly on point. There are a lot of cases where when doing a raid there is a general theme that plays in the background which steps up with additional layers once combat begins. When combat ends, the music naturally morphs back into its calmer state until you enter combat again. It makes for a very dynamic atmosphere that adds to the impact of what you are doing in the game from moment to moment. Similarly, final bosses of noteworthy raids and encounters tend to have a theme all their own, and the fights are tailored to fill a certain amount of time. The songs in these fights typically loop indefinitely through the fight and when the opponent falls there is typically a small cutscene showing their death animation. It is during this brief time period the music fades in timing with the scene regardless of where the current loop is, and then the victory fanfare plays and that's that. There are so many subtle things that they have done within the game pertaining to visuals and sound and they are done so perfectly at times you'd never even notice them.
Enjoy Mr Greg's first visit, and enjoyed this one as well! He's got such a respectful approach and knows his stuff. Super cool.
A little sad at the start when he said he'd not listened to any VGM since the last vid he did with ya hahahaha but I definitely keep in mind the impact the context behind VGM can have on the experience overall..
"It took me ten years to find the answers to something
I forgot about it in two seconds"
How relatable :)
Hi marco! love your stuff and guests as always. I was thinking while you played the main theme for legend of zelda that maybe it'd be a interesting concept to show guests the evolution of certain themes like this one from game to game, not only with the sound quality and composition but also might be worth it to showcase leitmotifs in certain games that have them to convey a game's identity and progression through music more thouroughly than with just one song. Keep up the good work!
Neat idea I’ll have to see how to do it
Since you did Pictionary, you should think about doing a Tim Fallon video, because you will be blown away at what he able to do for an NES cart
That man is a magician, the sounds he could get outta those chips are just unreal. We need a Follin ep so badly
I believe one of the brothers sadly died this year. I do not remember which one, but regardless I hope his legacy can live on and may he rest in peace.
@@jurtheorc8117 it was Geoff Follin. Tim is often credited the most for the music pieces, when in fact many of the most well known pieces were written as a collaborative effort.
Ah yes, Timmy Fallon of The Last Night Show. 😂 Yes, we all know you mean Tim Follin.
A whole video about the Follin brothers would be great. I would love to hear the reactions to the Boss fight from Plok, that one Silver Surfer level, and the Solstice title screen
I've really been loving these videos, and I'd like to recommend some tracks from Okami for future episodes! Okami is so weirdly underrepresented in discussions about game music. I'd love to see it get some time in the spotlight.
Tracks like Ryoshima Coast I and II, Ushiwaka's Dance, and Demon Lord Ninetales are all great choices, but my biggest recommendation are the 3 tracks that play during the final boss: Emperor of Eternal Darkness, Reset (Thank You version), and The Sun Rises.
Okami has such great musical storytelling, and this sequence of tracks is just phenomenal.
This is my first time listening to music from Mass Effect and I am blown away by its beauty. Full body chills.
Waiting patiently for Midra Lord of Frenzied Flame to be sprung on your guests
@CinemaJacket now my task when my work week is over is to see if there’s star scourge Radahn reactions. 😂
I think I can easily say that many players don't treat In The Balance as simply just background music. (Especially if you're using it to grind from lvl 90 - 100.) It's one of the highlights and for those who love lore it just added on further to Ul'dah's lore since it's essentially an Ul'dahn hymn and shows a bit moe of their beliefs about Nald'thal. Plus it's always fun if you can get the music to sync up with his ultimate move with the balancing of the scales. It makes it more cinematic.
I would be thrilled to have Gregory back. I love the way he approaches these and the discussions.
Gregory trolling you by forcing you to listen to the whole Central City theme is hilarious.
"You made your bed now lie in it."
I recognize the theme, it's a remade version of another sonic track, is it not?
oh yeah, it's diamond dust from sonic 3d blast
ALL of tim follins music is under appriciated the man is a genuine genius and madman. ive been waiting to hear you bring some up, and as ever the Pictionary theme is a great choice!
Those two hours and twelve and a half minutes vanished somewhere without me even noticing. The only break I had to take was to listen to Mr. Uematsu's live performance of Dancing Mad with his prog rock group. This video was such a pleasure again.
I would say Dancing Mad is the greatest piece of 16bit video game music of all time. And top 10 of gaming music of all time. To have produced that on a 16bit console is unreal, and it fit that epic game well.
Preach
The most amazing thing about Guilty Gear, is that since it's inception the game's designer was also the composer, writer and character designer Daisuke Ishiwatari.
In fact, in the first game, Ishiwatari wrote the story, characters and music, provided the character illustrations, and even voiced the main character. This series is his baby.
it would be interesting to see their thoughts on the more modern takes on the original songs after hearing them, to see their opinions on the changes
Man, Leaving Earth always gets me
Leaving Earth is in my browsers favorites for as long as i can think back. That "reaper noise" which is inserted here as those deep hitting bass notes is just so good. It always takes me back to the feeling i had when i first played it as a 20 year old young man. When the Reapers shot down the evac-ship with the kid in it.. i took that shit personal.
Halo 3 and Halo 3 ODST are different games.
very halo 3 is the hero story finish the fight ....ODST is a trooper dropped behind enemy lines of your fallen city in the rain and after waking up you have to try and find your squad or what's left .. sleuthing and investigating your way threw the city.... I love them both
Super hero protagonist vs hero protagonist imo
Not really
@@gnat8316tf you mean not really 💀
@gnat8316 Well technically
Gregory highlighting the similarity in structure between Drift and Extras was mind blowing. They have such insightful commentary!
It would be nice if Marco would research the games a bit more, so he can add more context to the people reacting, like he does for Bloodborne, for examples. Also, did he ever show the Dovakhiin (main menu) song to his guests?
Two examples for context:
Odst is standalone and that's exploration music (at night)
The distorted background sounds are from mass effect 3s reapers, the big aliens that are the sole reason for leaving your home planets
To be honest you do loose out on OST tracks when you lack the context.
Most are made to go along with a particular moment in the game.
I think a big part of this channel is looking at the music outside the context. So I don't mind when they don't know the context 100% correctly.
If he did that he’d likely spoil himself on games he hasn’t played but intends to so I get why he wouldn’t
@@DarthSpiderMario Not saying he has to spoil the game to himself or his guests just for a track from the game's OST.
More-so saying that it should be kept in mind that the track on it's own isn't a complete experience most of the time.
Love this man! The way he writes off the things that are interesting for him and how he explains some parts while listening is great. And he didn't say all that he pointed out that's for sure! Have a good day, Marco.
40k mechanicus is honestly one of my favorite OSTs. Up there with xenosaga 3's (wish youtube didnt have issues with Xenosagas OST myself...). Noosphere is so good. Reminds me of listening to far above the clouds by mike oldfield
I know it is a bit the purpose of the channel but I still think that the context of the piece deserves more attention. For example in soulsborne most of the time the cry and slash of the boss while not tied to the music is an entire part of it.
You guys did almost an hour on Dancing mad. Holy crap that was a full video in itself.
Great video as always! I love that Greg is down to run the mile and listen to full pieces; in that vain, I'm curious to how he would react to the full Kulve Taroth melody
There's this Masahiro Sakurai video he just released where he talks about Famicom and NES sound and music tech, and part of it is about how the NES didn't have all the tech that the Famicom had, so some or many games have different tracks in the Famicom and the NES - including the Zelda Main Theme itself.
Garth added into the mix would make the most magical and "unique" music listening session I think this channel would ever know, I love the idea wholeheartedly in a twisted sort of way
speaking on saxophones, it's funny to me when music-tubers hear/comment on the song that plays in Animal Crossing New Horizons in Nook's Cranny in the final hour before it closes for the evening (title is "Shop Closing"), there's clearly a soprano saxophone but people think it's a clarinet, a french horn, an english horn or oboe, anything but a saxophone! The timbre can be hard to pin down if you're not really familiar with it.
I’d love to see another one of these because there are a lot of really incredible gaming tracks out there worthy of proper musical critique and appreciation.
I highly recommend examining the Donkey Kong Country, Super Mario Kart, Elder Scrolls series, Halo series, and many more that I can’t even think of right now.
But there are so many impressive orchestral tracks and retro tracks across a vast multitude of games that would be enough to do an entire series on.
There's a coincidentally large amount of...church music(?) in this session!
Honestly, if it was possible I would have say it's best to showcase Dancing Mad in The Black Mages' arrangement, though I don't think there's an official version available to listen on youtube. I definitely have a bit of bias though because I also think it's the best arrangement of it.
Oh and if you get a chance to recommend anything to Gregory again, Buying goods at Palmira is probably in the vein of what he's looking for in the Sonic track.
Leaving Earth has an in-game cinematic that goes with it that gives a lot of context to the music and all it's elements.