Initial Impressions and Sharpening on the Venev Phoenix 240F/400F Resin Bonded Diamond Waterstone
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- Опубликовано: 23 янв 2025
- High vanadium steels (roughly more than 4% V) for hard vanadium carbides or VC. VC aids greatly in the wear resistance of the steel but it is actually harder than traditional aluminum oxide abrasives. Enter diamond abrasives that can cut and shape these super hard carbides. Not only that, but the diamonds shape even traditional steels better microscopically at the apex and benefit more traditional steels. The difference in results from alum oxide vs. diamond for traditionally steels isn't incredibly drastic and likely only noticed by the more discerning sharpeners.
In terms of diamond abrasives, the Venev stones are the least expensive of the high-end market. The low-end are diamond plates like DMT, Atoma, Worksharp, etc. The high-end are bonded diamond waterstones that use some sort of binder (resin or metal) that is mixed with diamonds in a soup. That soup is then cast onto a flat surface and finished into a stone. This means that the diamonds go deep into the stone and add significant life to the stone. It also lends to substantially better feedback and finishing compared to plates. Still not the same as Japanese waterstones but much closer than the plates.
So who are these for?
Those who are sharpening hard, high carbide steels and what a more luxurious experience that takes the feel and finish to the next level.
Nonaffiliated link: www.gritomatic...
Happy Monday EP, have a great week & keep 'em sharp as a sharp knife is a happy knife !
Thanks Steve and right back at ya!
Thank you. Very good info and clear. I just got the same stone and excited to give it a try.
Glad you liked it! What kind of blades are you going to be using on it?
@@EngineersPerspective701 I'm starting with a Spyderco Para3 in S30V. And I have other knives in this steel but they aren't thin behind the edge. I'm trying to attain hair whittling edges and consistently. Thank you for posting videos!
Definitely picked a great stone! Love me the para 3, it's a great design and S30V will take a great edge. Enjoy!
@@EngineersPerspective701 Used this stone and then the Venev 800/1200. I have the hardest time cutting paper towel, like you show here, but can cut pretty cleanly through thin paper. What quality is it... that allows your edge to catch so much better? FYI I just began trying free hand after using a Sharpmaker and guided system.
@@dcuttingedge5422 you’ve definitely got some great stones to get started! The apex has to be burr free but not over polished. It won’t cut the paper towel if you polish that bite out. Usually getting that clean apex is the hardest part for me!
Love your opening line "Good morning america, how are you?" - now I want to listen to the City of New Orleans song. I love that song.
I was just thinking the other day, yesterday I think, you must be busy as you had said you you would be given new child but I was still hoping for new sharpening related video at some point, and bam, there it is!
Looks like you got great results on that stone. I know I have mentioned before to you about how much I have used it, seems hard to beat the performance and practicality. After using the king neo a bit more for a while I have been funding myself going back to this stone again now. Was interested to hear your thoughts on it as I have used it so much myself. Sounded generally similar to the impression I have gotten from it.
I was hoping that intro would come across! Dig that song so much!
Having had that small 1x6 stone with the 25% diamond concentration for a year and now using this stone on maybe 6 knives, I'd say that small stone is NOT a good representative for the 100% concentration stones. They feel and finish like totally different stones.
The 100% concentration:
1) Cuts WAY faster
2) Glazes/loads way less
3) Has a much rougher feel
4) Finishes significantly coarser
I have been really enjoying it though, so much that I have the 800F/1200F coming on Wednesday! Part of that is the 400F isn't leaving the finish I was expecting based on the 25% concentration stone.
The Neo is still a different animal to me though. It cuts like a 600grit but finishes like a 1K. It has all the good Japanese waterstone feel to it that I love. It's a bit early to say for certain but if I was asked what the minimum stones I would want (not need) I'd probably say the 240F/400F, 800F/1200F, King Neo and Chosera 3K would give me what I want. Maybe add a DMT coarse in there for reprofiling.
@@EngineersPerspective701 I saw your video on chosera stone but haven't used it myself so dont really know otherwise but the other stones sound just about right for my preferences so far. I go up to the veneve 800 sometimes. Have tried the 1200 but seems like too much for my preferences or maybe just haven't got my skill level quite there to optimize use of yet, i dont know. I also do use atoma 140 a bit for heavy reprofiling. I did have those partial concentration small veneves at first, used once or twice and didnt like them too much.
@@turing2376 Do you feel like the bite falls off a cliff on the 1200 is why?
Honestly I bought the choseras mostly so I could use and compare against the gold standard of pro stones. They aren't the end all be all of stones but they are a major point of comparison.
They are also sensitive enough to carbide volume and hardness that they've been super useful in guessing steel hardness/properties which is probably my favorite use for them at the moment.
Once I get the 800F/1200F I'll try to get some decent sharpenings in on them and report back. I'm looking for pretty finishes while keeping good bite as you well now.
@@EngineersPerspective701 I will be very interested to hear your take on the 1200 stone when you get it. Not having used it in a while, it seems that it mostly just polished, I didnt get much more out of it, might as well just go to strop instead and felt like I only risked rounding off my edge. For me the 800 stone then strop seems pretty refined already anyway. A lot of times the neo or the veneve 400 is my finishing stone then strop. Also, I try to keep things as simple as possible but hearing about you getting that stone is giving me the itch just a little bit to try it again!
@@turing2376 I see what you’re saying. We’ll see!
I wouldn’t say I’ve had this one long enough to know if I “needed” the 800/1200 but it was long enough to know I wanted it 😂! A little influenced by Scott Gun who finishes on the 1200 also
I swap hands myself. I just keep some cling wrap around and quickly wrap the knife handle a couple times before sharpening. Keeps things clean without much trouble or cost.
I'll give that a shot. Tape is so dang expensive that I don't like using it every time I sharpen.
Great job! Based on their website and what I deduct from their confusing descriptions, I don’t think the 240 side has the OCB binding, just the 400 side.
I think you’re right! I forgot to check but I made this and didn’t look at the package like a bum!
I just found that out the hard way. I thought I ordered the 240/400 dragon 8x3 with the 400 having the OCB binder, but instead I received the 240/400 with the 400 that DID NOT have the OCB. So if you or any of you subs want a 240/400 bonded combo, I will sell it for $87, half off what I paid. I have used it to sharpen one knife, so that’s a steal.
@@MrEric0822 You don't still have the stone to sell do you?
@@EdgeStoneKnives Sorry, no
@@MrEric0822 Hey man, what was the reason for you selling the F400 with the old binder (not OCB)? How do the binder differ for that grit particularly?
I have been meaning to do a video about these stones. I have both 25% and 100% concentration of the 100/240 and 400/800. I enjoy both variants for different reasons.
Same here. They both have a role to play in what I'm doing. I haven't been going back to my little 1x6 25% concentration much due to convenience but it can really be the ticket sometimes.
That 100% 240F is really doing it for me though, surprisingly it may be my favorite out of the bunch. Doesn't load nearly as fast as I was expecting and cuts pretty dang quick.
do you know the grit mesh more coase for vanadium and a store in Union Europ on internet?
It is difficult to understand what exactly you are asking so I will try my best.
Go to Gritomatic.com to see the details on the stone and grits. The link should be in the description. They are currently the only place I know to buy these. Message them on their website and they may be able to work out how to get you one because I don't know if they normally ship to the EU.
The 240F has 40micron - 50micron diamonds
The 400F has 14micron - 20micron diamonds
@@EngineersPerspective701 I asked for grit used on stones like 1000 k chosera for example. I was searching for a 50 or 60 grit !
@@zenrazor659 Gotcha! I highly recommend you go to the Gritomatic website and check out their Grand Universal Grit chart. It compares tons of stones, abrasives so you can figure that all out.
I will say the 240F is pretty similar to a DMT coarse, likely a lot more coarse than a chosera 400, maybe more like a Shapton Pro 320.
The 400F is coarser than a Chosera 800 probably similar to a Shapton Pro 1K or a little coarser. Slightly finer than a DMT fine though.
Any available? Can’t find them.
Sorry if they aren’t available at the link in the description then I’m not sure where to buy
@ ok I’ll keep looking. Thanks!
Thank you kind sir for sharing your experience and knowledge regarding these stones and sharpening in general.
I am newbie as it comes to sharpening but believe I have finally found a great set of stones to learn on along with a pair of Naniwa Professionals 800/3000. Question if you might; 1. Would you recommend the 100/240 and 400/800 or 240/400 and 800/1200, planning on 1 micron strop as well? 2. Could I get by without the Naniwas for wide range of blade steels from AUS8-K390.?
Can’t seem to find the Super Vitrified 400 from BBB, not that I want to spend that much for one stone😮
Kind Regards,
I have no doubt the 100F is a beast but for sure recommend 240/400 and 800/1200.
You won't need the Naniwas at all with those stones. You may want them later just for the feel, feedback and overall experience of japanese alumina based stones but you won't see any gains from them.
Good morning
Maybe you can give me an answer?
I bought the Pegasus 400/800 and 1200/2000 stones.
The knife glides over it like glass. Efficiency is zero. It doesn't work, it doesn't sharpen at all. The result is mediocre.
I feel like the stones have a problem. However, the site indicates that it is a concentration of 100%.
Do you have an opinion?
Have you dressed the stones yet? Some diamond stones come with a layer of resin over the top covering the diamond particles. Are the Pegasus Venevs right?
Ideally you would use SiC powder on a glass plate and rub the surfaces on that to expose the diamonds. but I’ve never done it that way. I just use an 800grit nagura to dress the surface and it works fine.
@@EngineersPerspective701 Thank you for your reply. I just honed the stones, they are now a little bit more abrasive. It's better. I still find them not very aggressive but it's already much better.
@@TheGuillaumedu31 sounds like you’re mixing in the right direction. Might take a time or two for a totally pressed surface. You should feel a good bite with the 400F when you’re using it. Best of luck
👍 great job great edge! Have u ever tried metallic bonded cbn or diamond stones? I think that's what I'm getting next! Love the sharpening vids!!! Try some dual grit sharpening as well
I dont know if you read it or not but science of sharp had article on the dual grit sharpening. Made sense that it would do well on sissal rope, but seems questionable how it would hold up to some other materials given the nature of the burr-like edge, was interesting though.
Have not tried metallic bonded due to cost mostly. If I buy anything diamond/CBN after these it would probably be super vitrified diamond waterstones. One day I'll pick up the 400grit but that won't be for a while.
The hassle of the duel grit has me pretty turned off especially because I like the performance of my edges so far. Maybe one day for giggles!
@@EngineersPerspective701 yeah, kinda what I thought about the dual grit as well, that and that it might kind of bother me psychologically thinking about the nature of that edge how it is, even if it was fine from a practical standpoint but I dont know 🤣
That supervitrified 400 is the stone I want to try as well. Looks like it would be great.
Venev stones are excellent for Maxamet. They don't seem to load up, and stay flat for a really long time. Also Gritomatic's diamond pastes are a great value for fast cutting stopping compound. I don't want this to sound like an advertisement, I'm just a fan. They make great abrasives.
What I like about these is they are good for ANY steel! For maxamet, 10V, K390 I would usually apex on the DMT coarse and then finish on either a DMT fine or King Neo. Loved the results off the Neo. And for Non 10V class steels or ones under 65HRc, I would use Japanese waterstones like the choseras.
But now I can use these on any steel and get the comfort I prefer with the diamonds and speed I want. I will say the 240F seems like a very worn in DMT coarse which is a tiny bit slower than I prefer for apexing super wear resistant steels but not awful. More use required for final thoughts!
@@EngineersPerspective701 I have pretty much the whole set of Venev stones, and the coarsest, highest diamond percentage stone a real beast. I've even used it to flatten the deep grind marks on the full flat sides of my Maxamet PM2 (they were deep enough from the factory that you could feel them with a fingernail). It was a bit time consuming, but it absolutely worked!
@@ZPositive Coming from the 25% concentration ones, I've been very pleasantly surprised by the speed of the 240F 100%. Definitely could see the low grit being an animal!
I'd be tempted to just get an extra course plate at that point but an atoma costs the same and you would only get 1 grit so why not go Venev I suppose!?
I wanna get a set of the Phoenix stones, but they’re $160 a piece (or at least the 80 grit one is)
Are those the thicker ones? I’d buy them right now before they’re gone. With the war in Ukraine you can expect them to dry up I believe.
@@EngineersPerspective701 yeah, those are the 8x3’s. And that’s true, I can only see the lowest grit in stock, but I’ve found some 8x3 diamond plates that were only about $40-$50 a piece and were in all the grits I wanted
@@feraltrafficcone4483 which diamond plates are those?
Grab you an atoma 140 8x3 for apexing. You'll be able to apex in under a minute. Then move to your f240 f400. The work sharp is nice but it's pretty small
Really not a fan with apexing at that low of grit. The #400 super vitrified diamond waterstone from triple B is my go to low grit. Hands down my favorite stone of all time
@EngineersPerspective701 I use my 140 atoma to reprofile mainly. I'll run it right until it's about to apex and then I switch to my atoma 400. By the time the 400 scratch pattern takes over, the bevel is apexed. Makes quick work of anything, that Atoma 140 is absolutely blazing fast for reprofile work.
@@EngineersPerspective701 honestly if you aren't changing your angle or getting chips or if the apex, 400 is usually good for most ppl. I'm just so used to dropping my angle down to 14°-15° that if I didn't use 140 grit I'd definitely be forever. At my work they are so hard on knives I've even used cheap Chinese 80 grit diamond to apex them 😂
Diamond leave a very unpolished finish , but for some steels they are mandatory. I don't have those steels tho, I just use them cause I found them for cheap :)
They leave deep scratches and a satin finish like a belt instead of the nice even finish of a Japanese waterstone. These stones here make a HUGE difference in finish quality though compared to diamond plates. They're lack of polish has to do with a binder that doesn't break down into a slurry rather than the abrasive used.
They cost a hefty price now, Honestly I would just use my chinese Diamond stones.
I've used Eze-lap stones and chinese and always been happy with the chinese ones.
Realistically they're $50 USD per grit in hear in the States. So that's really not bad at all compared to any quality stone. As for these vs. diamond plates, they are a completely different animal that the more discerning users will appreciate.
@@EngineersPerspective701 Here in Europe they cost 100€ 😳😳😳😳😳😳
@@dimmacommunication Ouch, that’s crazy! Pretty sure they’re manufactured in Poland too!
@@EngineersPerspective701 Honestly I wouldn't buy steels that require exclusively diamond to sharpen , too much of a hassle...
I still use diamond as it's way cheaper and serves very well as a perfectly flat lapping stones ( silicone carbide paper on glass works well too )
I didn’t know the polish grit system was way different from japanese or ANSI. Explains why I didn’t get the results that I was expecting with them.
I'm hearing the terrible grinding sound when he reaches the end of the stone and the edge goes over the sharp corner of the stone.
That and the sound it makes when he continually hits the Kick of the blade on the edge of the stone. this is NOT the way you sharpen a fine blade. Ever!
KnifeMaker
Is this a fine blade or working blade or both? There are times when I care about the heel/kick area and this is definitely not one of them. You may care 100% of the time but on my blades, I cut in a choil and get in as close as I can on the stone. Not worth the headache.
As for coming off the end of the stone, I think you're hearing the same sound of the heel contacting. Not sure though because I didn't really hear anything else.
Still appreciate you speaking up though. Cheers
gotta love when a "professional" speaks up. lets see his clean cut paper towel videos freehand and maybe then his words wont fall on deaf ears.
@@chrisolenick953 I'm sure he does quality work and has good knowledge but in this case I stand behind what I did here. No judgment passed or ill will!
I always sharpen right through the ricasso, edge straight from the plunge grind to the tip as it should have been from the factory.