CHEAP LS TURBO TEST-EBAY GT45 vs SUMMIT S475
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- Опубликовано: 26 ноя 2024
- $163 DNA GT45 TURBO vs $649 S475 SUMMIT TURBO-WHO WINS? DO YOU REALLY GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR? CHECK OUT THIS VIDEO WHERE I COMPARED TWO LOW-$ TURBO TITANS, THE ALWAYS POPULAR GT45 CLONE (FROM DNA AND EVERYONE ELSE) AND THE SUMMIT RACING S475. HOW DOES THE CHEAPER 800-HP TURBO COMPARE TO THE MORE EXPENSIVE 1000-HP TURBO?
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I would like to see the Summit turbo compared to Twin GT45 clones. I'm interested to see what going twins does to boost lag and torque. 2 x $169 = $338 which is still around half the price of the S475. Factoring in the extra cost of plumbing a second turbo might make this a better comparison money-wise.
Good point, good point!
He did this test, the gt45 turbos were better, at 1000 hp the s475 had like 3 times the back pressure 😳
Cheap /clones always have a down fall. Holset,Garret, precious, and turbonetics. Have levels and classes you buy the class you want to be in and never have to wonder if it can support it.
i would love to see a turbo video on different size AR housings on the same compressor size and see how the different backpressures affect the boost rate. pleeeeeeease.
Me too
Yesss
@@hondatech5000 dude you just babbled on and on about nothing. The AR ratio can significantly impact power as back pressure on the hot side can cause massive inefficiency on the cold side. Thats what they wanna see, not your "pick the best size turbo" generic bullshit.
I would totally love to see that! I'd love to see a complete series on different AR housings, on the compressor side as well. The new Garrett G series is running larger A/R on the compressor side with a more efficient wheel. A G25 flows slightly better than the GTX30! I really wish they would have taken advantage of the OE side advances a long time ago. The aftermarket is supposed to lead the charge. Not the other way around. If it wasn't for emissions Nazis we wouldn't be making nearly as much power. Unintended side effects hahahaahha.
@@hondatech5000 i agree with there not being a ton of options in ar housings given low budget turbos from eBay to hks, and summit to borgwarner.
To quote Mr. Banks "it takes pounds of air to burn pounds of fuel". Air density is the key, -and if you run a compressor off of it's island on the compressor map, adiabatic efficiency takes a major dump. Heat the air and it's worthless. Great videos as always Richard, -I watch every one! Looking forward to Turbo Tuesday!
I have personally found The new generation of hi efficiency Garrett turbos substantial step up which would make a great video Richard
show us the data
Not sure how to upload pictures I would have to check with don Walsh additional dyno information
I would love to see the engine that stays on the island. It's one thing to say it in a theoretical context, it's another to size a turbo that perfectly to what the engine needs to do all the time.
@@177SCmaro You are absolutely correct. There is no way to ever stay in the sweet spot all of the time. I was merely stating that there are significant benefits to be had by sizing the charger/compressor as close as possible for the amount of mass air flow.
You put 45min worth of info in a 22:45min video! Keep at it , I'm soaking all this up. Why? I don't know, I like it!
happiness is.... a new richard video!
Please Richard, do the ebay 3582 water oil turbocharger. Single and dual setups. There are a lot of guys wanting to know your expertise about them.
usually I just use compressed air to the top of the gate via pressure regulator to raise boost in increments on the dyno vs a bleed
Enjoying the videos Richard. It’s important work and consumer evidence you’re providing.
budget boost is a great thing
Thank you 50 times over!!! I'm so tired of people on forums yapping about not bothering with cams or ports. "Why are you gasket matching, pocket porting and changing the cam? You are adding boost anyway, what's the point? " Because making your motor as efficient as possible will really get the numbers up there! A well built VQ37 making 450na will do 1050 at 20psi or 1.4 BAR. 20 PSI on a stock VQ37 might get you 750. That's a huge difference and less strain on the motor. People just don't understand, I would love to see twin gt45s vs twin 475s. Maybe a compound setup in the 4 liter 2jz type in the land cruiser!! Stock vs ported, built and cammed.
I’m still learning and your videos are awesome and informative! I’d like to see single vs twin turbo setups and more specific 2 gt45 vs a bigger/more expensive single setup and pros/cons of each example
S475 @ 10psi - 6000rpm = ~780hp
GT45 @ 10.5psi - 6000rpm = ~750hp
Similar but definitely statistically significant.
That’s a difference in power of ~4%.
For people trying to maximize a setup this matters.
picking one point (at different pressures) is not a good comparison
@@richardholdener1727 I agree! I'd love to see you run this test again with the EBC, the cheap GT45, the S475, and a big dollar race turbo.
I understand!! Thank you. I have a propane powered Toyota 3TC with 87mm Weisco forged pistons and a Schneider turbo cam, MSD 6AL and CB performance Black box ignition computer. I should be happy with about 190hp with my 10lbs of boost. My little '73 Corolla will be fun! Driven it around the neighborhood un-tuned and it feels great.
I LIKE THE 73 ROLLA AND THE 3TC
What dictates the hp/psi ratio is the V.E of your engine as long as the turbo can support it. The closer a turbo gets to its choke point and out of its efficiency range the less hp/psi it is going to make until it reaches a boost level where it will be at its limit and at that point it will only create static boost and no flow, even if you manage to maintain a fairly flat boost curve throughout the rev line. (as pressure ratio goes up flow goes down). After that point it will start to drop boost. Bigger turbos allow one to reach higher boost levels and still make power. This can also be said up to a point for more aerodynamically efficient wheels and with more blade surface area, in comparison to less efficient ones of the same overall size, a fact which raises the choke points slightly and can allow one to run a bit more boost through the turbo, but in turbos nothing can beat size in regards to making more power. Another good video.
na hp doubles at 14.7 psi-increase na hp and boosted power goes up too (just need the turbo size to support that hp)
@@richardholdener1727 The reason it doubles it, is the V.E of the engine, so according to how much hp that V.E of that engine makes in n/a form, it doubles that or close to that, if the turbo pushes the cfm. The same happens to turbo/super charged engines but you usually get the base hp multiplied by the extra boost which is added to the stock boost , or in order to exceed that you will need to increase the V.E of that engine.
I ran a gt45 on our c5 vette worked great very good budget turbo
Would be really cool to see the same size ebay turbo vs the same size high dollar turbo like a precision and see the differences
Ive heard gt45 is a pt88 clone
@@GreenLifeOmaha_GLO I wonder if the gt45 is a Garrett gt45 clone
Well, once you get into the 1500 to 2k range, money doesn't matter, engineering does
@@aycentroid the Chinese turbos are direct knockoffs of high dollar, legitly engineered turbos. Of course we want to see how they compare directly.
Very informative. One must consider volumetric efficiency of the engine as well as a turbo. At lower RPM and horsepower ranges the cheap one will do fine.... As things head to the higher end of the RPM spectrum it's going to fall flat. Like you said Richard the turbo must be designed to support the particular horsepower application.
I was hoping the turbos were going to be the same size so we could see the difference between the cheaper single journal bearing and the more expensive but more efficient ball bearing turbo. Hp, boost curve, ect....If you can make that happen it would be great. Your videos are very informative. Thank you!
Your comment is the exact reason why I watched this video. Unfortunately and somewhat unfairly Richard didn't use the same exhaust input flanges etc to drive the cheaper turbo. It might have produced just a tad more! What say you?
I personally find your vast knowledge invaluable Richard and learned more with your videos than any other on utube hands down. Thank you 1000%
More nova please!!!
happy to help
Oooooo that intro music sure got me in the mood
FYI Many of the summit turbos are manufactured by Rotomaster. They do contract out to other name brand suppliers, but IIRC there aren't any cheep China knock offs in the bunch. The Roto is cast in China but Roto owns their own foundry in China. My knowledge comes first hand as I used to work for the company that owned Rotomaster and managed turbo products for a short time. For my builds I'll eat the extra cost of the summit turbo just for the extra insurance of quality control.
I would like to see some tests on how the diameter of intercooler piping, intercooler inlets / outlets, and intercooler cross sections affect IAT, EGT, etc. Something like 3 different sized turbos, 3 different sizes of pipe, and well, the intercooler inlet / outlet / cross section combos could become quite extensive. Basically the idea would be to help people decide, when it's worth the trouble to start cutting up body parts to make room for bigger "stuff", and when to just use what fit's easiest. Intercooler dragging on speed bumps -vs- limiting the tune to keep it safe.
watch the intercooler upgrade video
The one thing about the cheap turbos is, the sticky waste gates. Ive had 2 of them run away. Got the motor shut down before any damage was done, but something to watch out for! Awesome vid again!! Thanks
I don't usually go cheap on waste gates-those are critical
I Appreciate all your hard work. The fast lane to horsepower taking out the guess work..You rock DZ 302 was my first drag Motor in a drag jeep.
This is by far the best turbocharger video I have seen. Very informative and well presented. 👍👍
Wow, thanks!
@@richardholdener1727what size is your GT45 please? I looked for a GT45 and there seems to be several different ones. Thanks, and great vid!
Please im begin with yoh please do a rear mounted turbo set up all the guys talk sgit about them. Boost leg 🦵 😋. No back pressure.
Would be curious to see if two eBay turbos would put perform the one summit one.
they will-I ran two on a BBC (1400+ hp capable versus 1000 hp)
@@richardholdener1727 so The Logical question in my mind then becomes, is it more economically feasible to run a pair of the cheaper turbos and pay for the additional Plumbing as opposed to one of the larger turbos.
Yes, still less expensive if not the same, & you have a more symmetrical / even flowing exhaust system.. which in theory would be another reason to make more power. Think of an NA V engine with 2" true duals vs the same engine with a cross over in the exhaust system "Y"ing into a single 2" tail pipe.
@@darrylroederer2680 you can use two smaller turbos so they make boost earlier and get more wider power band, but probably you will stress out everything else, cause to much NM to early
How does that affect the torque curve? It seems the 2x would be better-suited to make this engine sing at high RPM rather than running out of breath early with only the one. Plus more boost
Put a Ebay turbo on my buddies mustang and he drove it hard and he went 77,000 miles on the turbo before it started having a little play in the shaft. For $163 that's not bad for the milage.
2 “low buck” turbos. One is 4x the price of the other LOL. Shows how cheap the GT really is.
I was going to say the same thing. It would be interesting to see how two DNA GT45's would compare to the single S475 turbo. Would still be cheaper. Perhaps boost might come on faster too?
boost comes on slower-but the twins can make more
650 bucks for a turbo is pretty cheap. A 160 for a turbo is so cheap I would question the longevity but obviously these things work pretty well for what they are. I guess the little Chinese kids who put them together have really stepped up their game.
@@177SCmaro I agree, wouldn’t trust one. If I didn’t care how many turbos I’d blow up it would have to be with an intercooler as a shrapnel filter LOL.
@@richardholdener1727 o.k..i not a turbo head,.but,i have a 4.2tdi, ford s/duty. MWM,brazilian..they come std with a mitsubishi,,,td04,,journal bearing. i fitted a import,,td06,ish,ceramic bearing,$680,. power went from 510nm,to 700nm..but only 170 kw.. 135 std..Q is,a bearing spins faster than journal, yes..being a 4x4,it needs low torque. boost seems around 1k. no lag. 4t truck,gets 12.5 lt 100..not many turbo experts here in aus..all drift/drag... truck runs 3" ex. std, 2.5" in. in brazil,these would put your v8 diesels to shame..vids..[ turbo f1000 or turbo silverado. ].
Damnit Richard. Why did you have to post that tonight? Instead of listening on the way to work in the morning, I’m gonna have to watch it tonight. I guess I’ll just listen to it again in the morning anyways. Lol. 👍
yes-do both brother!
Love the videos Richard. You should do a video explaining turbo efficiency maps and why they have falling boost curves.
It looks like a pretty beastly turbo. I'd be curious to see the curve of twin gt45s any way you can test that?
Hey I love your vids. You should make a detailed video or a how to turbo an ls. Im in the process of 5.3 swapping my 89. I wanna keep the motor stock and just swap a cheap turbo on it. Im a diy guy however theres not really a whole lot of turbo ls info. Just think it would be dope to walk us thru the general process of hooking up a turbo to a motor. Greatly appreciated keep up the dope vids man
This nigga said theres not alot of turbo ls info ,what rock are you under lol? His 4.6 mod motor info on the other hand yeeeeah good luck finding info on that besides here
There’s a book I just bought called ‘supercharging/turboing your ls engine’ (somewhere along that name) and it’s a pretty good step by step book
Keep it up Rich, awesome channel, waiting to hear more data for the Buick Camp please..
Well if you go by costs, 2 GT45 are $362 and have enough flow for 1400 HP, vs the $649 S475 at 1100 +/-. The extra $280 can buy the bigger dual inlet intercooler for the twin-turbo application.
And the thing I want to know is the average power for two inexpensive tiny turbos better than a single turbo with the same flow?
I would think packaging would be of issue. If you have the room, duals on V8s are the way to go. Inlines, bigger makes more sense due to the layout.
if twins are sized to flow the same as the single-they make the same power with the same response
Someone else mentioned AR variations and back pressure, I say yes please! The back pressure curves would be a nice addition to the info. It must have been quite high on the maxed out GT45, but it still followed the pressure ratio horsepower formula quite closely (looking at the boost curve at power peak). This begs the question, if both make the same power at the same boost but one has much higher back pressure, is it using more fuel or something to get there? You’ve mentioned the exhaust valves might not like the high back pressure, is there any other down side? Please do a test to show the effects of back pressure on power production with hot side variables like AR ratio. Thanks again, Richard, for the best channel on YT!
Thanks again, appreciate the information and clarification, cheers
The V-band flanges on the S475 would make it my choice. I prefer them over slip-on silicone hoses.
Personally I blame squirrels
The bigger the turbo the greater the threshold, and longer the lag. I think people get hung up on the "dyno queen" aspect of the big numbers, but lose sight of onset of actual power delivery, and where in the rpm zone that happens. Power under the curve is what works on the street and is infinitely more enjoyable that an on/off switch, long spool of a ramp. And when that takes a long time to develop, and even worse falls off at the top, that stinks on the street.
My .02 c
so that means you use 2 of the eBay Hong Kong hairdryers
Beijing
Wangqing whirly thing
Sooo go for the ebay turbo. The Summit one starts creeping into Borg Warner prices. Might just get one for my RX7. I been to cheap to upgrade unless I found a deal and for the amount of driving I do, that ebay turbo will last me a lifetime.
Could find these for 150$ but since this dropped all i can find them for is 200 lol
That's still pretty good considering good high priced snails cost 10x that.
@@ConcussedGaming lol 😆 I like how you put that. Snail's
Oh no 50 more dollars.....
They are on ebay right now for $168 I am actually watching this video to decide if it is worth me throwing $375ish away.
Hey Richard, you should start taking donations to build a turbo engine and dyno test it. You could let us all vote on what you would build. (5.3LM7!) But you could also make some extra$$$! Just a thought. Love the channel bro! Keep it up!!!
I will be asking for help with the Big bang 3800 series 2 soon
I'm really liking all these turbo videos. I would like to see the difference with the turbo headers from ebay or a name brand if possible. Hoping to do a ls swap in a 3rd gen camaro soon with twins and I'm at the point of getting the gt45 clone for sure. Keep up the good videos
Awesome test. I had just asked if you'd do this test a few weeks ago. Nice video!!!!
Richard, I enjoy your "low buck" videos... I would like to see you test the generic LM7 + cam + eBay GT45... but compare the cheapest ECU like "microsquirt batch fire & waste spark" vs MS3 Pro, MS Gold Box, Haltech, Holley HP, Dominator, Terminator, Terminator X, etc... do any of these $$$$ ECU's really make more power?
if they allow you to run the correct AF and timing-they will all make the same power
I think also it’s not always what guys are looking for when upgrades ecu. They may be looking for added failsafes and more monitoring
I have seen cheap Ecu not make the same where it comes on boost and it’s places like this that , I’m told it to Ecu processing speed that matters
You can hold down control key while selecting files and it should open all the files at once.
Do a test with 2 of the $100 GT3582s on a 4.8
Thanks for posting these Richard!
What size is a GT45 approximately? Aren’t most turbos measured by the inlet side of the inducer? Like what is the cold and hotside measurements?
69mm
Thanks @RichardHoldener another great vid with the info I need. I still think twin 45's on the stock caddy will my best route. Lock it at 6psi of boost. Would make a great fun reliable engine. Ebay has some big block chey turbo headers cheap. Like 140 bucks. I've got some caddy header flanges. Courtney said it's easy to make the swap. I'll have to modify my wheel well covers to make it work. I dream of turbos.
sweet dreams
Great stuff Richard!!! Thank you for all the information you give us!
Awesome video Richard. Would be interesting to see an A/R comparison and the difference that makes on the same turbo
Rob dahm has a video for that , just done on a rotary engine but same principal.
@@mixxedboyybuilds8273 thanks mate I’ll go check it out 👍🏻
Ar is a really fine tuning thing. I kinda want to see.the same compressor wheel on different turbine sections with the same Ar. Garrett has gt3788, gt4088 and gt4288 turbos that all have the same compressor head. They are all kind of the same size. The compressor wheel has the same pn. The turbine is really different and would show way more than a switch of just Ar
@@timothybayliss6680 this is an awesome test idea also, the Garrett’s mentioned and some larger frame Borg’s 👍🏻
that's a better test that AR change Tim
This makes me question how to justify a purchase of a 1000-2000usd well known brand turbos.
Have you found weaknesses of these super cheap turbos compared to big brand turbos?
even if they break as long as you have an intercooler, just buy another gt45 and another intercooler to avoid any shrapnel in old one, and you’re set. rinse and repeat. still saving money
I would say their weakness of those cheaper turbo will starting to show their ugly side once boost above 15psi ..
But will it fail at 20psi,25psi,30psi,40psi who knows..
Too many quality variants and manufacturer from chinabay
Mostly what you're paying for with high dollar turbos is durability and every ounce of efficiency possible. I bought a S475 myself for my drag car since I don't drive it everyday and it has more then a enough capacity already.
Great video thanks Richard. Torque curves below 4000 is quite interesting, like your thoughts / comments. Both turbos look to be spooled by 3500, yet the Summit setup is still putting out more torque lower down at that point with approx .5 psi less boost, where the smaller turbo you would have expected held closer. I guess transient response may show differences with the smaller turbine etc, but is it simply the difference in exhaust restriction on the motor at that point? Thanks
I think a lot of people get hung up on semantics or numbers that can be negligible. If you have two identically sized turbos but with slightly different wheel designs and slightly different AR ratios, you could potentially change the air density which would change your power output. So one could make more power earlier due to the AR ratio or wheel design, and could be marketed as making more power. Or one could make 5hp more peak power. Which again did it make more power? Yes. Is it worth noting and claiming it to be superior? Probably not. It’s basic chemistry, if your air/ fuel ratio is the same and your flow into the engine is the same you’re going to make basically the same amount of power from one product to the next.
If you still had that 460 hanging around it be cool to see a turbo test on that engine.
I will be doing one on a 429
That is awesome! I'm building a 429 for my 68 cougar. You really got me hooked on the turbo stuff. Thanks!
Love the turbo videos
I had a 454 with a Mike Jones cam ( was ground for a street N/A) , got bored and set up headers routed forward and around to a single s475, no lag, great street killer.
Disco... disco dyeeeno... Seriously: Thanks for the great vids.
How about a 454 with cast iron exaust manifold and direct mounted dual GT45.
Then test 3 cams for the lowest back pressure while making 900HP
Nice, so the eBay turbo will definitely do what I want to do if I control it properly... I have a stock 2007 PI 2v 4.6 swapped into my '99 lincoln...around 235'ish hp....wanna make around 335 or 350 ish, and keep it somewhat stock looking...My main goal is boosting the torque quite a bit and having a somewhat flat curve similar to the ecoboost using what I got.
It would be interesting to see where you're at on the compressor efficiency map on both turbo's, but that information is not available on the ebay turbo. Maybe you could get some pseudo data by measuring compressor and turbine delta temperature?? ...that is if the temperature readings don't have too much lag time.
Hey man I really enjoy watching your show, keep it up.
Was up Ronnie.
@@ronnieyoung8549 😂😂 hey Ronnie, where’s Connie?😂
@@carlosherrera8541 ?? Is that a low down hit. Are u saying I'm gay
@@ronnieyoung8549 idk where you got that from 🤷🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️ I just saw that y’all were both Ronnie so I figured where’s Connie at?🤷🏻♂️😂
@@carlosherrera8541 oh. 👀 my fault.
I heard all that, but I'm still satisfied that some turbos are definitely more efficient than others of the same "size".
I would think you could have made more power and response, for less outlay, by stacking two GT-35s semi-sequentially.
It was easily viewed back in the day when all manufacturers used to provide compressor maps. You could get a turbo for your application that would fit it nicely between the surge and choke lines. Yes a turbo will do turbo stuff but an efficient and happy turbo does it better.
@@ricjona1069 I was actually referring to higher quality, better engineered turbos...
@@michaelangelo8001 I was just commenting in the old days of when all vendors had maps, you could view the difference of the efficiency (and therefore performance) by comparison. With the cheap knock offs, there is nothing to show anything. Heat, internal resistance, balance, flow, etc...it's a crap-shoot. I guarantee you if you took a GT45 clone and a Garrett with the exact same specs (as close as could be gleaned from docs), the Garrett would generate less heat, less back pressure, more flow, last longer, be more efficient, etc, etc, etc. and if something breaks, they will stand behind their product. But at 8-10 times the price, that is why people are willing to buy the knock offs and many consider them a throw away. If it breaks, they replace it.
I am doing some testing with 60s inlines. I know they are not a Garrett, BW, or even a Holset but I'm not willing to spend the extra money just for testing. I believe that's why Richard is using the cheap one. I'm sure the big guys will see what he is doing and start giving him the real thing and then we can see apples to apples. The big guys are losing market share and are going to have to prove they are worth the extra cost...or lower their cost 😁.
Regards,
Rick
@@ricjona1069 Well, you are right in that regard.
As I myself was saying, I'm satisfied that a real Garrett is a better turbo all the way around. But of course I agree with you that it couldn't possibly be *ten times* better...
please bring any "REAL" Garrett S475 turbo and run it at the same boost, AF and timing as this Summit turbo and you will what the difference is(n't)
Are brand name turbos worth it for casual guys that just want to do burnouts and cruise ? Thread below with your answer
these turbos work as shown-what power level do you need for burnouts
Would love to be able to do some work with you on some big block stuff! I’m working on some different setups for the future of my car
I'd like to see a big bang chevy 2.8 60° engine. "The other guys" I'm curious if they are worth building like what I had in my fiero.
Fieros intakes are restrictive about 200hp is the practical limit. Imho go for an LZ9/ 3900 swap.
@@kerryphillips9310 sold mine years ago, was first engine i built when I was in high school. Fun car, but moved onto trucks.
Idea.. dry sump vs wet just throwing that one out there
I would love to see this.
Engine masters did an oil pan video along those lines, the power gain was not insignificant on a big block.
@@Levibetz ill check it out
Manual boost controller or spring changes are better to look at. It gives a 'real' look at what's going on.
Yes! Great info, nothing but the facts!
Nice S475 video in just 1 day response! Richard is that guy!!! 🙌🏽
Oh yeah this is one I've requested as well. I hope he will run a s475 on a better than junkyard r.v. bbm. As I am building a 451 stroker and I have a new s475 with the t6 ar1.32
@@Popsm0ke nice I got the same turbo but im building a 6.0 ls for my old school
@@Popsm0ke first build and I literally got all my info from this angel 🙌🏽
Thnx-this is not the S475 compare video (more to come)
so what your saying, is you can get 2 of the GT45's for less than 1/2 of the summit budget model. Ok thanks for the info =)
easy math
Thanks Dan this really helped me, I moved recently and have this exact same grill, doing the conversion now, great info!
Who is Dan?
Lol, leaving too many positive reply’s on other people’s channels.
Loved this video Richard, as always your videos are very informative, love all the comparisons and commentary!
Good info Richard....Your the new Turbo Guru.....🙏
I allways felt like the ebay turbo is meant to just dip your toes in the boost world especially if it's your first time lol after the fleabay turbo gives out most people buy a brand name and call it a day
If you need everything. Like injectors and tuning or even an ecu and exhaust and intake and etc...it gets to be a lot. The $600 you can save might not be worth it. You can also usually rebuild real turbos pretty quick and cheap where some of these universal turbos there isn't a standard parts kit for them.
@@timothybayliss6680 true but for someone like me that has an ls swap that's taken me over 2 years and counting to build well the ebay turbo doesnt hurt since it also works as a mockup to build the turbo kit on I mean lol god forbid I leave a brand name turbo bolted on my "slowly but surely" build out on my drive way to fight the elements
Been watching your videos for a while now. Been going back to watch older videos of what pertains to my build. I’ve been working on my car for 2 years now. I’m ready to finish it but I would like to add turbos. Which will all be new to me. If I give you my build can you recommend turbos for me. I know you like the cheaper turbos to. That’s they way I’d rather go right now and upgrade later. Thank you for any help.
It is hard to deny that the Summit turbo is better on this combo for ultimate OVERALL power.
Look at the power numbers of the Ebay turbo at 13.5PSI versus the Summit at 13.4.
The Ebay gets 760hp at that boost pressure, while the Summit scores a whopping 840hp at 0.1 PSI less boost.
Conversely, at 3500 low, low RPM, the Ebay makes 415hp whereas the Summit makes a far larger 540hp.
Now, if this was just a "one turbo is smol, other is lahge" problem, the Ebay should make more power down low, but it DON'T DO DAT. Like the cartoon of the mean dog holding up the cat by the tail and spanking him with a barrel stave, the Summit SPANKS the Ebay turbo, across the entire RPM band.
Now, we need a test of the best, dual-ceramic-hybrid-ball-bearing costinator turbo versus the Ebay special, but with a simultaneous fuel-consumption (BSFC will come from this) measurement on the fly, too.
Since Summit evidently did their homework before getting their turbo made, how about one of the Top Shelf brands with every possible advantage versus the Ebay special, but seeing if it is just one turbo better at throwing more fuel in the garbage at lower boost while the other one just needs more boost to produce the same, but achieves it at the same BSFC at higher boost.
The burning question is, "given an identical setup, which nearly-identically-sized turbo produces the most power at the lowest BSFC?"
This is important because the less fuel you need to produce the same output and BSFC, the better your turbo, without a doubt. Now, sleeve-bearing turbos are dependable and cost very little in warranty claims, but that does not make them the best for efficiency, by any stretch of the imagination.
WHICH METHOD OF POWER ADDING GIVES MORE POWER PER UNIT OF FUEL?
NOW, a given turbo may for some reason just thrash the air more going in or clog it up more going out, and result in a hotter overall intake charge, and thus need more fuel to cool the combustion process, but make the same power at the same RPM if you throw enough boost at it.
That is why the BSFC is so important. A well-designed, super-efficient turbo dropped off by aliens from planet Xyrkol may produce the same hp as a turbo designed by that guy in SE Asia known as Lo Buc, but which one can do it at a lower BSFC?
Why is this important?
Because the more-efficient turbo can put out more power for a given amount of thermal stress and other stress on the engine, such as the outer circumference of the piston and those rings.
Piston and ring heat is one of the hidden costs of the inefficient power adder.
Hey Richard, thanks for this video. This is what I've been looking for. Now I feel better about my purchase of a s475 to run with a 451 stroker. If you're ever able to run a bbm with a better than r.v. platform i know it will be very well received. You'd probably be responsible for a shortage of s475s 😆... again thanks
that is a good turbo for the 440 (or 7875 gen 2)
Built a lot of race engines, know zero about turbo's. What I took from the video is, the psi will make X amount of power, regardless of turbo. However, a small turbo will only flow enough air to reach small power limit (but spool quickly) where a large turbo will flow more air and reach higher hp but will take longer to spool up. (Using the same engine in both tests) So, small turbo, spool quickly, Max rpm 5000 for example, fun street car. Big turbo, spool slower, max rpm 7500 for more top end pull and higher overall hp.
Am I close?
I haven't built any race engines, but still.... that sounds spot on. Smaller turbo....faster spool....less overall hp.
the turbo size doesn't change the effective rpm of the motor. the s475 in this case makes peak power at the same rpm as the gt45, but (as you correctly said) spools quicker and can support less total hp. Forget big and little turbo sizes, just size the turbo correctly for what you want to achieve
Not being experienced with turbos, these power levels are impressive. In the end, other than size difference, I think it boils down to polished vs not polished. Just as chrome muffler bearings add huge hp, I think that is what the polished exterior is doing. It would be interesting to compare the polished Summit turbo to a non polished version of the Summit turbo (if available)(lol).
polished external adds noting
@@richardholdener1727 It reflects gamma rays and lazers from outer space. Any thing shiny adds hp (lol).
@@supercuda1950 legendary comment 🤣
Have you done testing on the same size turbo but different kind of compressor wheel. "billet vs cast wheel"? Thank you for all the great work you are doing.
The dyno might not show any difference. I mean anything. If it's a pretty.good cast wheel at moderate boost, there isn't too much to be.gained. on the strip and in the car it's a little different story. If you compared compressors that flow the same, a cast s480 vs billet s476sxe, that might give you more information.
So my question is this. On a budget can a eBay turbo make more power then say a garret. My thought process is a cheep turbo would free up a good chunk of change that could be used on other performance parts that you could not afford otherwise if you went high dollar turbo.
the amount of power it makes is primarily sizing-the Gt45 can support 800 hp (or so), the S475 can do 1000 hp
The GT45 clone and S475 have larger turbine sides than compressor sides. How much would the performance change using something like a 76/65 from On3 Performance or a Turbonetics Hurricane TC78 (78/68) with small exhaust wheels? Both have .96AR T4 housings. They'll both have higher back pressure, but both are claimed to support 800hp. Would the large compressor side and small turbine side result really quick, low rpm spool up and high torque numbers or just be laggy like a larger compressor turbo and then choke the engine at higher RPMs from backpressure? The Turbonetics is a 78mm compressor wheel in an old 60 series size compressor housing. It is physically a very small 78mm turbo. It would be interesting to see dyno tests on a single TC78 on a 5.3L or an old Chevy 350.
A .96 single.t4 is really small for a v8, it's even questionable for something like a 3.0l v6. If you had it on a 2.0l like an evo or something it would probably do pretty well. When turbos have that that much of a bias towards the intake wheel are typically designed to run at high boost. If you turned the boost on your evo up to 35psi shooting for 800hp either of those turbos would be pretty happy. They would spool like crazy on a v8. No question, if you were only going for 600hp or even less out of a stock 4.8l with a stock torque convertor it might be really awesome. It will start to have more back pressure than boost almost right away, I mean like less than 3000rpm on a v8. For a street driven truck it would probably be.great but it will have stifling drive pressure at low boost and high flow.
I run the 1.10 t4 S475 basically a 75/74 I think . Comes on really quick on a 5.3 but it does choke up top .
The S475 Borg I have is am 83mm wheel with a 1.0 AR-run it on lots of LS motors (it was designed to be used as twins-but you know me-I'll still run it)
@@timothybayliss6680 I appreciate the information in your response. Even the Turbonetics catalog states “...this turbocharger is uniquely suited for very high horsepower 6 cylinder and 8 cylinder engines were all out performance is a requirement and tight packaging is a must “ This does agree with the 2.0L at 35psi scenario stated.
This is where some methodical dyno testing would be interesting. Including boost vs back-pressure in essentially a marginally applied application.
The TC78 is an old turbo design, while still sold new. Multiple forums provide statements like "ran 10.50 at 130 on 10# boost. with a 6.0, 350th, and 3.23 gear. 3550 lb street car.", statements of 135 to 140mph trap speeds and "works well with 4.8/5.3". [I understand these examples are out of full context]. It also seemed to be a turbo of choice for LS1s until the 76/75s came out.
It would seem it could work as a single on a V8 from 4.8L to (pushing it) a 6.0L. There was a 1.15AR housing available at one point. Maybe the larger AR is the unstated key for the statements found from forum posters and a way excessive back-pressure was curtailed.
This sort of works back to can an AR change affect back pressure if the turbine side is really too small for the application? I believe I remember Richard saying in a video that the AR doesn’t make as much of a difference as commonly believed. Please correct me if I am mis-remembering that statement.
My question is why is the gt45 so cheap. Im guessing it won't last due to cheap internals and bad tolerances. Is this true?
Sheer volume of production. They have been opened up before and they aren't terrible, just middle of the road.
Shop air applied instead of a controller maybe?
A very informative video!
Thanks Dr. Turbo 😁
I would like to see a video on turbo and tuning timing. Too many utube channels tell u info but intentionally make it complicated so they can sell tunes
I DON'T SELL TUNES-I'M NOT A TUNER
There are some parts you can cheap out on but I’m not sure a turbo in one of them.
Another super informative video! Thanks Richard! Any chance you might cook up a video explaining ring gap and compression ratios for different power adders?
ring gap is .007-.0075 per 1.0-inch of bore size (near .028-.030) for both top and 2nd ring. compression is open-more for race cars with high octane, less for street cars
great video!!!! I have a stock 1987 Buick GN what is your opinion on using a GT45 turbo as a upgrade? is it bigger better then my stock turbo? I don't know much about my stock turbo
it can make a lot more power than your stock GN turbo
@@richardholdener1727 wow thanks for the super fast response. In your opinion what would I need do to use this turbo?
Eluder Racing call summit and ask them
@@richardholdener1727 can you give me a link to the company you mentioned that sells the GT45 turbo i can’t find anything thank you
Thanks for the video. How about an LS stock head vs one with the swirl ramp ground away?
Great video. I can tell you’ve learned a lot since you did this test.
not sure how you tell that
Since I have a Summit s475 sitting in the floor of my office going on a 6.0 with P&P 243's and a BTR stage 4 turbo cam with LSXR ( per your intake video) , I am looking forward to seeing what the max output is going to be.
How's it running
It would have been awesome to see how these turbos with the same engine with higher compression piston of 10 : 1 or 11 : 1 on how they would react especially the ebay turbo.
compression just adds power everywhere-and improves spool for both
Only thing it will limit is the amount of boost you can put in. The cylinder pressures can get a bit high. E85 Is great and helps alot but it depends on your application and what your goals are for the car.
If your after modest power quick throttle responce and better efficiency than high comp is fine.
Also ring gaps can be an issue. If boost is moderate and its nit being driven hard all the time you should get away with 10- 13psi Id imagine
Love your channel.I have an 03 Cobra wanted to turbo it was wondering if you wanted to do a build on it for you channel...
Thnx for the offer-but I've done lots of those
What wastegate spring were you running ? That also has an effect on how much boost you can run with a bleed valve depending on if you didnt use the top port of the wastegate
2 gt45's for the 1000hp.
Richard Holdener first of all love your work and appreciate all that you do.
Question : Would a good high quality turbo making the same psi at the same rpm be less restrictive on the exhaust side and would that equal more power at the same psi?
I'M NOT SURE HOW QUALITY WOULD CHANGE THE POWER
Richard Holdener What I mean is would a good expensive turbo be less restrictive on the hot side and would that equate to more power?
My thinking is a cheap turbo would have less research and development put into the design and would likely be more restrictive on the hot side and restricting flow on the hot side would cost power!??
Wish I could fit the S475 T6 in my setup
Thing is huge, my hood doesn't fit because of it