I have used the 2 cars per powered drive axle rule for years in N scale. That is a 6 axle unit - limit it at 12 cars MAX, I try to keep each engine around 75% of max (That is 9 cars) Two 6 axle units would be 18 cars and three 6 axle units would be 27 cars running at 75% max tonnage/tractive effort or what ever you would want to call that in N scale.
I use tungsten fishing weights to weight my locos for this very reason.. tungsten is more dense than lead. It doesn’t prevent wheel spin completely but it does help.
WoW, your layout is just awesome! I wish I could still afford to model RR, it was so relaxing and made me so happy. Great channel and fantastic layout.
I enjoyed this video. I pre-planned my entire layout (operational yard, sidings, runarounds, grades, etc) for 10-11 car trains. Having a max car length in your mind before building a layout really helps when planning grades/turns
That was an awesome video! It was very interesting to see your experiment and how much the inclines, turns and switches all play in the performance of the ability to pull cars before stalling out. Thanks for sharing this with us.
I struggle with the same thing. I like running MU's though, but sometimes even then it's a struggle. Getting ready to do a mild rebuild on one of my more troublesome spots. Thanks for the information and affirmation.
Great video! I've had to get more into speed matching on my new layout (which I dont have any videos of) because I can now run 20+ car freight trains and they look great. With the exception of my Atlas Trainmasters, everything else stalls out although, Im pretty sure the Trainmasters could pulle the siding off a house if you asked them to. Even at the edge of performance though, its fun from an operations perspective to have to actually operate each train up the two big grades on my layout, just like running up a grade on the real thing.
Here in Saint John New Brunswick we got the steepest long running grade in Canada with a s curve as part. CPR and NBSR both used and use helper units on freights. there has at 3 runaways on the line during NBSR and at least 3 stale outs needing extra power. our former model railroad was basic a two level and getting from the lower to the top we had a good 4% grade and a switch back..its all fun and learning power and pulling.
Great video, especially the running shots around the industrial area., it looks fantastic, however I assume prototypically 26 car consists, would have been double or triple headed ? In any case your layout is looking brilliant now you have a complete circuit, will continue to enjoy your content. Tx again Mark
It takes me 4, 6 axle and 2, 4 axle units in MU to get a 30 car coal train up a 3% grade in the 180 degree turn portion of my layout. The rest of the layout can get away with 3 or 4 6 axle's at up to 3% grade in straight sections and 2% in curves.
I add weight to my locomotives whenever possible. I use lead tape or weights. Lead tape I use to fill in empty low clearance spaces in shells. If it isn’t a sound decoder, I put weight where speakers would go. Most of my 6 axle locos will pull 20 cars up a 2%. We will see how they do on a 42 in diameter 2.5% helix with 6.5 turns
My tracks are mostly flat as a pancake. I moved the level of the scenery up and down relative to the level tracks so I do not have that flat plywood look.
At Orlando N-Trak, we have a three-quarter helix going straight into a short 4.5% grade on a gradual curve. This is the nastiest part of the layout and is entirely the reason why it takes four six-axle diesels to pull a 25 car + caboose drag freight. Steam, apart from BLI's recent runs with diecast bodies and multiple traction tires, is pretty much unusable on that part of the layout with anything longer than a small handful of cars. So, I'd definitely say that grades make a huge difference. So too does the weight of the locomotives.
Very informative video. I learned the hard way. I stalled many times till i found the right amount of cars or getting a good running start. 😂. Wish I would have seen this years ago. Great video
I believe you will have to make a chart and rules on your layout for pulling. Also speeds with multiple locomotives and rules for additions of helpers also. I have such a chart started for my N scale. A person will have to follow and learn how to really negotiate the hills and curves.
When I first started my collection of US-themed models I was very surprised as to the pulling power of the model engines from the likes of Kato, Atlas, etc. as I was able to compare them to some of my existing British outline models. At the time I had a folded figure of 8 on a U-shaped layout with one arm slightly longer than the other, and based on the UK n scale ratio of 1:148 I had a 35ft run equal to a scale mile. British stock behind a Class 66 with 20 bogie coal hoppers not a problem. An equal length train of US hoppers with an SD60 on the head struggled in a similar manner as to what you've shown. Is it down to the respective scales - 1:148 vs 1:160 and what can be fitted within the respective locomotive bodies? I know that the 9mm track gauge is a compromise, as is the UK scale, because of the loading gauge used on the prototype in this country (echoes of the Victorian age) which also accounts for the difference in OO and HO.
A lot of it is down to weight. N scale locomotives are just too small to get a lot of weigh out of them. A good pulling engine needs to have some weight. HO and other scales have the same physics coming into play that hurt the pulling capabilities, but being heavier the engines just simply have more traction.
Could you try 2 speed matched locomotives together? I had a particular experience when I was trying similar stuff. I had a 4 axle that could do 5 cars max alone (and it slipped) and a 6 axle that could do 8 cars max able to pull 15 cars when together up the same hill! I'm curious to see if it was only my setup that was particular or if it is how it works.
I get my f7 unit up a 10 degree incline !!!!!!with neodynium magnets under the track. Trick is you have to remove all steel weight from rolling stock and use smashed lead weight so they dont hold the engine down... it climbs the track like a champ no wheel slip.
on my HO layout I have 2.7% grades and one GP40 can pull about 12-15 std size cars, maximum train size has been 55 cars behind my DDA40X,SD40-2,DDA40X consist with no drama..........could add more cars in a clockwise direction but in anti clockwise more cars straight line the S curve!! a normal running will be 25-30 to suit the passing loops.
Hi there, just a quick question will 16 inch radius curved track work for Gevo locomotives I'm planning an expansion on my layout and was wondering if these curves would work for these locomotives. Your videos are great keep posting them.
It's definitely all about traction at this point. I have not tried any "tires" on the wheels, though I'd be interested to see how they perform. I am curious if it effects the electrical contact with the track very much.
For me, this is actually good. This lets you simulate real(ish) world conditions and requires a helper unit or two to be added just to get over the incline.
I saw the title of this video and said to myself "Well he's clearly describing my layout...". I am in a tight space and wanted as much action as possible so some of my grades are around 4-4.5% and some of my initial curves were 11" but I've widened most of those out to around 15" but its still objectionably curvy and hilly. Unless you're a larger steam engine or a multiple unit diesel you're not hauling long trains on my mainline alone.
Just another reason to buy more locomotives!! Im just getting around to learning how to program and speed match. I just paired up a couple of SD90s and CV5 is set at about 25mph (max speed for my railroad) and on my 2% grade, they are brought down to a nice crawl with a decent size cut of cars behind them. Every train on my layout will be around 40 cars max, and i have determined will need 3 locomotives on the head, or run as a 2×1 DP configuration. Coal and grain trains i could run 4 up front and still look prototypical, but if need more than 3 on a freight train, I'll have to run a 2x2 or 2x1x1 configuration to appear compliant with powered axle rules (NS)
I rarely see freight trains pulled by a single locomotive these days anyway. Even when it's a local on flat urban terrain (they want a cab at both ends). It's all part of the model railroad industry's conspiracy to make us buy more locos. 😆
I believe the max my Kato SD70M was able to pull up a 4% grade was 9. I did a video of it on my channel. Love what you are doing on your layout. Great work man! I have been wanting to ask…the 454 in your channel name…what’s the car to go with it?
The video I did was “n scale Athearn F45 vs Kato SD70m. Nice car. I had a 70 elcamino 350 in high school. My dream car is a 70 chevelle 454 with the 4 spd. I will have to check out the other channel. Thanks!
@@nscaler454 Interesting given that NMRA has a suggest weight based on length of car. Using NMRA recommendation a train would have to be a lot shorter.
If you are working with locomotives with traction tires, you may need to have some spares. You will go through traction tires rather quickly when they are stressed,
never full speed. I have tried some 35+ and I find it has made things worse. Once it breaks traction, the wheels just spin like crazy and it doesn't move forward.
Not to mention, there’s no control and too many variables. Car weight varies, friction, where the cars are in the consist; amongst others. The best way to demonstrate this would’ve been having the same cars weighing the same and a force gauge placed on the end of the train in various portions of the layout to demonstrate the reduction in pulling force as the locomotive traversed through those sections.
On the railroad on work on, we have 2% grades and some sharp curves. We have SD-40-2 power. We always need 2 horse per ton to pull the hill. An SD-40-2 is 3000 hp, we had cars that were 130 tons. About 8-10 cars per locomotive. So your model, is about spot on.
@@nscaler454 yes we had 2% ruling grades that were 3-4 miles long with some curves and dips. The original railroad was laid narrow gauge. We usually had five locos on a train and double the hill two cuts of 50, then bring the 100 car train home as the trip was down hill from there for the most part.
The Curves Shouldn’t be The Problem you Put speed On that train And To Be Honest With a Load Like That There Should Be 2 Engines On That that is a Great way To Burn Out one Locomotive Fast.Come On Think About it🤔
Had to test the limit. I wouldn't run the trains like that in normal conditions. The point is to show if you have a very curvy track or any sort of incline, you need to either run shorter trains or add more locomotives.
I have used the 2 cars per powered drive axle rule for years in N scale. That is a 6 axle unit - limit it at 12 cars MAX, I try to keep each engine around 75% of max (That is 9 cars) Two 6 axle units would be 18 cars and three 6 axle units would be 27 cars running at 75% max tonnage/tractive effort or what ever you would want to call that in N scale.
I think that is a really good rule.
All locomotives are not created equal. Things like weight, motor, track geometry, and traction tires make a difference.
I use tungsten fishing weights to weight my locos for this very reason.. tungsten is more dense than lead. It doesn’t prevent wheel spin completely but it does help.
WoW, your layout is just awesome! I wish I could still afford to model RR, it was so relaxing and made me so happy. Great channel and fantastic layout.
Thanks! I hope you can find a way to get back into the hobby.
I enjoyed this video. I pre-planned my entire layout (operational yard, sidings, runarounds, grades, etc) for 10-11 car trains. Having a max car length in your mind before building a layout really helps when planning grades/turns
That was an awesome video! It was very interesting to see your experiment and how much the inclines, turns and switches all play in the performance of the ability to pull cars before stalling out. Thanks for sharing this with us.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thanks for this video. This proves why longer trains are double headed at least or more with bankers and DPU's in the consists.
I struggle with the same thing. I like running MU's though, but sometimes even then it's a struggle. Getting ready to do a mild rebuild on one of my more troublesome spots. Thanks for the information and affirmation.
The prototype railroads have the same issue. 😁 This is why we have helpers/DPUs!
Great video gave me the imput needed to design my layout. Thanks.
Great video! I've had to get more into speed matching on my new layout (which I dont have any videos of) because I can now run 20+ car freight trains and they look great. With the exception of my Atlas Trainmasters, everything else stalls out although, Im pretty sure the Trainmasters could pulle the siding off a house if you asked them to.
Even at the edge of performance though, its fun from an operations perspective to have to actually operate each train up the two big grades on my layout, just like running up a grade on the real thing.
Here in Saint John New Brunswick we got the steepest long running grade in Canada with a s curve as part. CPR and NBSR both used and use helper units on freights. there has at 3 runaways on the line during NBSR and at least 3 stale outs needing extra power. our former model railroad was basic a two level and getting from the lower to the top we had a good 4% grade and a switch back..its all fun and learning power and pulling.
Great video, especially the running shots around the industrial area., it looks fantastic, however I assume prototypically 26 car consists, would have been double or triple headed ? In any case your layout is looking brilliant now you have a complete circuit, will continue to enjoy your content. Tx again Mark
It takes me 4, 6 axle and 2, 4 axle units in MU to get a 30 car coal train up a 3% grade in the 180 degree turn portion of my layout. The rest of the layout can get away with 3 or 4 6 axle's at up to 3% grade in straight sections and 2% in curves.
that is a lot of pulling power.
I add weight to my locomotives whenever possible. I use lead tape or weights. Lead tape I use to fill in empty low clearance spaces in shells. If it isn’t a sound decoder, I put weight where speakers would go. Most of my 6 axle locos will pull 20 cars up a 2%. We will see how they do on a 42 in diameter 2.5% helix with 6.5 turns
My tracks are mostly flat as a pancake. I moved the level of the scenery up and down relative to the level tracks so I do not have that flat plywood look.
Great video. I am building in HO, my layout has 3 levels and a 60 inch diameter helix connecting it all. It will be interesting operating the layout.
At Orlando N-Trak, we have a three-quarter helix going straight into a short 4.5% grade on a gradual curve. This is the nastiest part of the layout and is entirely the reason why it takes four six-axle diesels to pull a 25 car + caboose drag freight. Steam, apart from BLI's recent runs with diecast bodies and multiple traction tires, is pretty much unusable on that part of the layout with anything longer than a small handful of cars.
So, I'd definitely say that grades make a huge difference. So too does the weight of the locomotives.
Very informative video. I learned the hard way. I stalled many times till i found the right amount of cars or getting a good running start. 😂. Wish I would have seen this years ago. Great video
I believe you will have to make a chart and rules on your layout for pulling. Also speeds with multiple locomotives and rules for additions of helpers also. I have such a chart started for my N scale. A person will have to follow and learn how to really negotiate the hills and curves.
When I first started my collection of US-themed models I was very surprised as to the pulling power of the model engines from the likes of Kato, Atlas, etc. as I was able to compare them to some of my existing British outline models. At the time I had a folded figure of 8 on a U-shaped layout with one arm slightly longer than the other, and based on the UK n scale ratio of 1:148 I had a 35ft run equal to a scale mile. British stock behind a Class 66 with 20 bogie coal hoppers not a problem. An equal length train of US hoppers with an SD60 on the head struggled in a similar manner as to what you've shown.
Is it down to the respective scales - 1:148 vs 1:160 and what can be fitted within the respective locomotive bodies? I know that the 9mm track gauge is a compromise, as is the UK scale, because of the loading gauge used on the prototype in this country (echoes of the Victorian age) which also accounts for the difference in OO and HO.
A lot of it is down to weight. N scale locomotives are just too small to get a lot of weigh out of them. A good pulling engine needs to have some weight. HO and other scales have the same physics coming into play that hurt the pulling capabilities, but being heavier the engines just simply have more traction.
One engine usually can pull 12 to 16 cars comfortably, at least thats the case for my Atlas C420 on the MaiNe MoNtreal Modules layout on flat track
Could you try 2 speed matched locomotives together? I had a particular experience when I was trying similar stuff. I had a 4 axle that could do 5 cars max alone (and it slipped) and a 6 axle that could do 8 cars max able to pull 15 cars when together up the same hill! I'm curious to see if it was only my setup that was particular or if it is how it works.
I have plans for a future video and that will be tested.
I get my f7 unit up a 10 degree incline !!!!!!with neodynium magnets under the track. Trick is you have to remove all steel weight from rolling stock and use smashed lead weight so they dont hold the engine down... it climbs the track like a champ no wheel slip.
on my HO layout I have 2.7% grades and one GP40 can pull about 12-15 std size cars, maximum train size has been 55 cars behind my DDA40X,SD40-2,DDA40X consist with no drama..........could add more cars in a clockwise direction but in anti clockwise more cars straight line the S curve!! a normal running will be 25-30 to suit the passing loops.
hello Nscaler454 & it's is Randy and i like yours video is cool & Thanks Nsacler 454 Friends Randy
Hi there, just a quick question will 16 inch radius curved track work for Gevo locomotives I'm planning an expansion on my layout and was wondering if these curves would work for these locomotives. Your videos are great keep posting them.
Check out my review video of the GEVO, you can see how it goes through my 16.5" radius curve. I find that it works and looks just fine.
Have you tried to add one more traction tire on the drive wheels. Because I think that it slips more than anything and the motor can handle it.
It's definitely all about traction at this point. I have not tried any "tires" on the wheels, though I'd be interested to see how they perform. I am curious if it effects the electrical contact with the track very much.
You need a DPU in the middle 😊
For me, this is actually good. This lets you simulate real(ish) world conditions and requires a helper unit or two to be added just to get over the incline.
I saw the title of this video and said to myself "Well he's clearly describing my layout...". I am in a tight space and wanted as much action as possible so some of my grades are around 4-4.5% and some of my initial curves were 11" but I've widened most of those out to around 15" but its still objectionably curvy and hilly. Unless you're a larger steam engine or a multiple unit diesel you're not hauling long trains on my mainline alone.
Very useful video. Thanks
Just another reason to buy more locomotives!! Im just getting around to learning how to program and speed match. I just paired up a couple of SD90s and CV5 is set at about 25mph (max speed for my railroad) and on my 2% grade, they are brought down to a nice crawl with a decent size cut of cars behind them. Every train on my layout will be around 40 cars max, and i have determined will need 3 locomotives on the head, or run as a 2×1 DP configuration. Coal and grain trains i could run 4 up front and still look prototypical, but if need more than 3 on a freight train, I'll have to run a 2x2 or 2x1x1 configuration to appear compliant with powered axle rules (NS)
I rarely see freight trains pulled by a single locomotive these days anyway. Even when it's a local on flat urban terrain (they want a cab at both ends). It's all part of the model railroad industry's conspiracy to make us buy more locos. 😆
@@metroredline😂😂
I believe the max my Kato SD70M was able to pull up a 4% grade was 9. I did a video of it on my channel. Love what you are doing on your layout. Great work man! I have been wanting to ask…the 454 in your channel name…what’s the car to go with it?
which video shows the SD70M do the climb?
The 454 is reference to my 71 Chevelle SS454. My other channel is @ss454ls6
The video I did was “n scale Athearn F45 vs Kato SD70m. Nice car. I had a 70 elcamino 350 in high school. My dream car is a 70 chevelle 454 with the 4 spd. I will have to check out the other channel. Thanks!
I'm surprised you didn't put a one layer helix to compensate for the hill height.
This is a test... this is only a test. Thank you!! Just thought I'd help out.
Does any of the rolling stock have additional weight beyond out of the box weight?
Not to my knowledge. With the exception of the gondola that I put maybe a 0.25 gram load in.
@@nscaler454 Interesting given that NMRA has a suggest weight based on length of car. Using NMRA recommendation a train would have to be a lot shorter.
@@jaapongeveer6203 I suspect some of the cars are under NMRA suggested weights, and some cars are over.
If you are working with locomotives with traction tires, you may need to have some spares. You will go through traction tires rather quickly when they are stressed,
So I don't believe I ever heard you say on all your runs max cars half the cars are you running the locomotive at full speed..?
never full speed. I have tried some 35+ and I find it has made things worse. Once it breaks traction, the wheels just spin like crazy and it doesn't move forward.
You have to increase the speed of the train prior to incline. Any one who had geometry and physics in high school knows that
Not to mention, there’s no control and too many variables. Car weight varies, friction, where the cars are in the consist; amongst others. The best way to demonstrate this would’ve been having the same cars weighing the same and a force gauge placed on the end of the train in various portions of the layout to demonstrate the reduction in pulling force as the locomotive traversed through those sections.
On the railroad on work on, we have 2% grades and some sharp curves. We have SD-40-2 power. We always need 2 horse per ton to pull the hill. An SD-40-2 is 3000 hp, we had cars that were 130 tons. About 8-10 cars per locomotive. So your model, is about spot on.
This is fascinating! So a real life SD40-2 can only pull 8-10 cars up a 2% grade with sharp curves?
@@nscaler454 yes we had 2% ruling grades that were 3-4 miles long with some curves and dips. The original railroad was laid narrow gauge. We usually had five locos on a train and double the hill two cuts of 50, then bring the 100 car train home as the trip was down hill from there for the most part.
@@kimrok1 Thanks for the cool insight information
Is it not abusing the engine?
I would say it is. To do the test properly, I had to test the limit. I would not run my trains to the maximum at all times.
I have a solution, absolutely send it
tried it. didn't work haha.
@@nscaler454 lol
@@nscaler454 usually works in ho scale
Class one roads should not be grades tougher than two percent, that is one in fifty,e g not more than one inch in fifty onch
Far too many trucks....most layouts I see use 10-12 trucks and 4-6 carriages....
Train too heavy? Just add more locomotives LOL
Absolutely!
The Curves Shouldn’t be The Problem you Put speed On that train And To Be Honest With a Load Like That There Should Be 2 Engines On That that is a Great way To Burn Out one Locomotive Fast.Come On Think About it🤔
Had to test the limit. I wouldn't run the trains like that in normal conditions. The point is to show if you have a very curvy track or any sort of incline, you need to either run shorter trains or add more locomotives.
Hello, does this channel allow comments
Of course. As long as they are not inappropriate.