Reacting to Palsteron & PoE Game Director Jonathan Rogers Debating Magic Find
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- Опубликовано: 27 май 2024
- Link to the original podcast video on Subtractem's channel ► • Path of Exile 2 Interv...
When I heard Palsteron and company pushed Jonathan Rogers, himself, on the topic of Magic Find, I knew I had to check it out. Here's my take on the debate.
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I never do MF build because I prefer powerful builds with my little time to play, but I have no issue with players who love MF build. that's why POE is so good, because you can do whatever you like
poe is trash atleast right now
@@myrkshideouts6020 I wouldn't go that far. it is very tedious to play this league, yes, but it is also a powerful crafting mechanism. I am still playing it, slowly but surely on path to finish 38 challenges.
@@yanj111 haha sweet beginer u are i give u 1 or 2 more years and u will think like me
@@myrkshideouts6020 what are you talking about, I have been playing POE since open Beta.
the way I enjoy POE is that I don't care what other people gained or won, I set up my goal and work toward it.
@@myrkshideouts6020as a beginner with only 6.5k hours in PoE, the base game is in the best state it has ever been
Honestly, I adhere to both sides of the argument.
Magic find bad because i want to min-max profit per hour and at the same time have the strongest character power level so magic find forces me to play a weaker build.
Magic find good because it adds a third vector of scaling your character - instead of power fantasy you get loot fantasy.
I still can't decide what my opinion is.
In the end, it all comes down to FOMO
As soon as i stopped playing meta builds, chasing mirror tier items, chasing day 1 ubers and trying to double corrupt perfectly every single item i have noticed that i started to enjoy the game way more!
If you still feel conflicted about magic find, try not giving a shit, eh? seriously, just stop giving a shit! I promise you, your enjoyment towards the game will skyrocket as soon as you try to remove efficiency from your game plan.
Good luck, exiles!
Fair advice.
Ya, fomo is not game devs concern
If u are constantly worrying about what others are doing, try ssf you will enjoy it way more
@@Gobblesthepatient FOMO should be dev's concern, it makes ppl quit the game and us who remain have a dead league to tradenightmare.
@@aeristheangelk2556 go ssf
I came into poe late and given its complexity and remaining shelf life I decided to avoid the sweat. I've had a great time exploring builds and mechanics.
I think the notorious B.I.G. said it best "the cheddar breed jealousy"
Truest
Lol
The big issue with MF is that I feel like I'm wasting my time if I don't do it since the loot you get with even just mid-level MF gear is so much more than without it. This has less to do with FOMO and more to do with the fact that trade league is so balanced around increasing scarcity in order to avoid currency and item inflation that if you play trade league without MF gear you have to do some kind of alternate non-RNG strategy to make currency(harvest juice, speed farming boss invitations, sanctum farming etc.). There's a reason why someone like CaptainLance does Sanctum blasting the first 3 days of every league, and the reason is that Sanctum is just a better currency farm than doing maps if you don't have MF gear. And is it really good for the game that the primary endgame content is extremely inefficient if you don't play it a very narrow way? I would submit that it is not.
And all of these are just general points about the current state of PoE, Necropolis league and T17 maps with the early meatsack abuse is just another prime example of the devs just having no clue how to make the game rewarding for just playing it like a normal person.
Thanks for your input. I for one had the most fun doing the Meatsacks farm, which is why I banged my head against the wall trying to do it in sub-mirror gear and hybrid MF. I would have actually had more success bricking fewer maps just letting go of MF altogether in this case, and I appreciated the aspirational side of that farm. I suppose this is a bit of a counter to your comment but I see your side.
Honestly I'm in SSF and one char is MF and the other my all arounder to kill ubers, mapping etc...but I wouldn't be even able to pull T1 or T0 items without MF. But I don't blame MF for that specifically, I think the overall drop rates needs adjustment, especially for build enabling uniques
make quant an unchangeable implicit no synth, no eldritch, no Vaal.... or make quant implicit remove 1 prefix and 1 suffiix.... allow for some maleabilty and customization but with a real opportunity cost. the vast majority of items have a somewhat lagging/"less than essential" modifier....allowing quant to fill that role would be a de facto requirement. my 0.02$
I remember my attempts at MF in STD with IIQ support gems on 2 skills as Raider (for Onslaugh and other stuff, it was 1-2 Raider reworks ago maybe) and it was frankly miserable experience - easily my top3 worst moments in PoE and bad choices.
Got more currency by selling both IIQ support gems later when their price rised significantly...
Honestly, just lets go back to having IIQ & IIR on rares. IIQ Prefix IIR Suffix simple. You cannot have a strong MF char in game without spending a handful of mirrors otherwise a stiff wind kills you. Let us get MF stats on rares so i can do MF without being in a party or spending multiple mirrors. Especially since I've not never seen more than two mirrors across my last 10 leagues
Most people would be for this.
I think the answer for the discontent might be as simple as having two leagues in a row with a 'favorable' environment for MFers. Affliction was obviously too excessive, but being a one-and-done deal it could've been viewed as that oddity where everyone dropped multiple mirrors. I remember thinking during it that the next league was going to be a massive MF hangover - and that would be fine.
But then Necropolis ended up in a weird situation (especially after new allflames and buffs) where certain niche MF methods were actually MORE crazy than Affliction, and something broke. The balance was skewed too far in one direction, and now the power-fantasy faction is unhappy. And really I can't blame them. I think the balance between the two factions is actually a healthy approach to the design philosophy, but then there must be an adjustment to how MF works in end-game in general, and to the future league mechanic specifically, to maintain that balance.
I think if the insane Beyond Curation Anarchy Allflames thing didn’t happen, this wouldn’t have been seen as a Mf league. Hell right now I’m MFing with barrels, unaffected by player MF stats. But yeah, the bugs and unintended game player soured everyone so much that it’s left its mark and might as well be how you said.
I love MF builds. even though i am a noob player. its has always been in POE. leave it so pls :)
i absolutely rock with magic finding and so far the ONLY issue with MF i could see comes with the softcore market, where a few players end up inflating prices for everything since they have a lot of item flow in the trade site, so non-MF players end up having to pay more to profit less, while only mirror-tier builds profit enough.
So now the community seems to be divided into alternatives, that probably have been discussed a lot by the dev team:
1- remove MF entirely, making everyone run at the same playing field. Not by most favorite option since as you guys said, MF is like the third vector of scaling in a build.
2- NERF MF, so endgame builds do not affect the market as much as they do. Also not really fond of that since it would cut short the chasing of high level items.
Over time i developed my own thoughts about the matter and came to my own solution, which can possibly be applied with enough tinkering.
So, if we look into where and how MF is applied, we see that there are very few places in the game that supports it, mostly on gear. Rare gear with MF is CRAZY expensive, while Unique gear although it can be expensive with perfect rolls and implicits and such, most of it comes as a much cheaper alternative then rare gear, but with downside of pretty much no good mods aside MF, and some even have detrimental mods like Greed's Embrace.
We have to either reduce our power by a lot, or expend mirrors into good enough gear to get a decend MF amount running. So what about we give MF a mid term?
My idea would be, add IIQ and IIR in lots of other places. Synth mods, corruption mods, cluster mods, jewels, more prefixes/sufixes on gear, hell even on the skill tree itself, HOWEVER, the overall power of said mods would be drastically reduced. Normally we get from 10% to 20% quantity per mod, so we could reduce that to an average of 2 to 5% quantity per mod, but with much more ways to get it that won't affect your build that much.
That way, we could see a future where MF is not mandatory, but an option for your build just like anything else like damage or defences, and everyone would be able to comfortably put 30% or so MF into their set while still maintaining the opportunity for high-end builds to reach greater numbers. Pretty much the middle ground between "remove MF" or "nerf MF to the ground".
As much as ~5m dps is the ideal for all builds, or a handful of defense layers are necessary for any build, MF should also be seen as an important piece of your character, but not necessary to thrive.
I like the ideas but this will be a nerf to people who only care about power as crafting will be harder as mod pool gets more diluted.
@@athenawrath well then we add a new type of currency like "gilded chaos orb" that reforges something while adding a MF mod, or a gilded exalt. That would be the only way to add these like how essences work.
There's always a solution, we just have to think hard enough and anything can be fixed
I think there is a large misconception with magic find. I know in Palsteron's video recently he said just put on magic find and double your loot. I feel like there is a large portion that also believe this. They don't understand that there is a rather large diminishing return to it. Doubling you loot in terms of quant isn't exactly feasible outside a group setting.
IIQ % loot gained
20 16%
40 30%
80 47%
You are sacrificing a lot of power to gain a less than equal amount of loot.
I think a lot of the issue came from MF when the big currency conversions were available. That did give mf a huge amount more since it scaled with both IIQ and IIR.
I truly believe a large amount of the who say this are people who couldn't afford a mageblood and was only able to afford a HH this league because of the insane strats that printed them even without mf. I think if mf was to be removed, they would still not be happy. Their uniques would go up in price and they would complain about how you can only afford the good uniques if you play in groups or the top 0.1%.
Maps have an initial investment (scarabs, frags, map device), and that investment is a flat fee. Which means the lower the margins of your map, the better magic find gets. In the age of the internet and everyone sharing their strats, those go around really fast, making margins go down rather quickly.
Example: You pay 1 div to enter a map. Lets take your example and round it to 50% more loot and adjust the margins to conveniently explain my point.
Player A gets back 2 divs (non mf) = 1 div profit
Player B gets back 3 divs (mf) = 2 div profit
This changes depending on investment and margins but you can easily see how a crude term like "double loot" that I threw out there would exist and be valid. I say this in the interview as well but snoo cut me off there. Regardless though, "double loot" is such a simple and unprecise term that taking it for an actual "100%" number is just nitpicky and a strawman anyways, even if you disregard the example I just gave.
In the conversation, this was used to point out that non-mf builds get priced out of certain fragments, not to necessarily say "mfers get double loot".
@Palsteron those arguments would make sense if the big currency conversions were still in the game.
Factor in the time to complete a map and the investment cost to even be able to outpace a non mf account in terms of divs per hour. The average high end mf player has 30-60% iiq so we are talking a 25 to 35% increase at the cost of a much slower map and much more expensive gear. What frags are non mfers getting priced out of? Curation is the only one that I can think of you may be talking about and the most popular curation strat is barrels which doesn't require mf. Curations are expensive because they are a fun gamble and very rare. Long term they will make money but that can take many many many maps and when you hit you hit big.
If this was kalandra or affliction I might agree with you but this league it's only marginally better. The currency it takes to do meatsacks efficiently with an mfer is very high and then it's still not that much better.
Tldr: this isn't affliction or kalandra. Mf isn't insanely good. The only content you could make an argument that mf is makes a decent difference is shaper all flame curation. I'm glad Mark understands it's impact in the game. Don't let fomo get you.
@@Palsteron My MF build was the most frustrating to play because the build was balanced on a razor's edge of barely being able to complete the content as long as I played well, it was one of the most deliciously min-maxed builds I've ever played but I could barely run 20 maps in a row without needing a break. To use the language of snoo's commentary, I've played both a power fantasy build (a few actually) and a loot fantasy build (affliction lmao). I even have a third axis, a "qol fantasy" build in standard that has exactly 0 bricking map mods in the game, including the new t17s even if a few would be obnoxious. I dismantled my MF build for parts the moment it hit standard.
Do I make less money running t17s than snoo? Yeah.
Did I make less money MFing affliction than the turbo-capped voided valdo's farmers? 100%
To speak directly to a specific comment
> non-mf builds get priced out of certain fragments
I understand it's sad that curation is the problem child (I wanted to farm different maps for apo cards pre-league), but what is the problem with this? MF builds are priced out of uber bosses and tough valdo's maps because they return 0div when they die. Farming delve above 600 is basically worthless this league. And farming raw drops as a non-mfer has no margin. Different builds for different content is a lot of the economy's balance and the whole reason archetypes like "berserk bow" exist.
@@dozwhite Those arguments can't "not make sense", they are basic economic principles. The "is mf an issue" discussion is up for debate though and depends on the league as you stated. I just wanted to point out that you missrepresented my point and tried to pull a gotcha "he doesn't know diminishing returns lol" comment.
I had this discussion a lot and I don't mind doing it again, but your "don't let fomo get to you" makes me think you're not the right person to have that conversation with, which is unfortunate. I guess we'll never get over the "lol they want me to drop less currency" hurdle in this discussion and it will stay tribal.
Issues of game difficulty balance and build diversity are anti-MF’s strongest point of argument, IMO. The issue of non-MF players’ profit margins squeezed on account of inflated profits from MFers inflating the economy is a weaker argument, mainly on account of so many sources of valuable loot being obtained from deterministic drops, AKA drops from league mechanics. It’s unfortunate that non-MF players may feel relegated to doing only Strats that target those specific rewards, and I try to see both sides of the argument. In the end, I don’t think it’s a good enough reason to hard ‘fix’ MF as it stands.
For the sake of build diversity is a better reason to nerf MF on gear, but I don’t think the dev team has the gall to mess with it at this point (looking at Jonathan’s indifferent demeanor).
In the end, PoE2 is where MF will receive its biggest changes. Looks like quant on gear will be eliminated, and that will hopefully make the greatest number of people happy. I just hope we have plenty of ways to scale drops outside of gear.
I'm a wierd case.
I like Magic Find but i think Palsteron is right.
Magic find is getting more popular because everyone is looking for the strats that generate the most currency per hour , and typically , it's where MF is .
So most ppl that want to be wealthy as fast as possible obviously tend to use MF to generate that currency and then funnel ressources for another character or stop there once they are strong and wealthy enough.
Weither it's an unique item or a stat line on a rare , you're still "pigeonholed" into getting that stat/item because it's that wealth that will also bring power ultimately.
The sooner you can MF the wealthier(counting time) you become as a player.
People used to be even more disgruntled with MF in a way, because they felt this way except entirely locked out excluding group cull play. At least now they feel they can take it upon themselves to MF solo and make it worthwhile. But I still think too many people put too much emphasis on MF when so much valuable loot in the game isn't derived from quantity/rarity on gear.
Capt lance almos fell asleep during the MF debate xD
He should have stood up and walked around a bit.
@@snoobae8553 xD
It's just so frustrating to hear people think that you got more rewards in affliction league by running lower tier maps. We only ran them till we were able to get to alters! Where guess what happened? More rewards!🙃
You know I sat here and typed out a few different suggestions but, there's so many damn moving parts to this game. Any fix for mf would involve a ton of work
I'd love it if we could reforge some of the stats on our gear into mf. It would increase mf build diversity substantially. I think mf is fun, turning excess build power into more loot. I just dislike the implementation and how much of a difference there is in loot relative to normal builds.
I think an unveil mod for magic find with focus would be cool. like IIQ while focused or something
Dang that would be pretty hardcore. I'd be up for it.
The problem is that, right now, there's just no real way to add MF to many builds. My build's pretty good, but the avenues for adding MF to a build are so limited and specific that they just don't work for me.
If it was truly another axis of upgrading, that'd be great, but for many/most people right now, it's not.
that argument is pro removing mf entirely, not pro keeping as it is. those are the only 2 ways ggg will go about the topic
@@The_Aleph_Null If they want to keep MF, they should expand it so that you can get it everywhere -- jewels, rares, tattoos, everything, to give us enough avenues to actually pursue it. Not just a couple slots with uniques.
A tiny bit of MF on gear goes a long ways. Most players can sacrifice a ring and or boots to get a lot of MF stats that way.
@@chriscarollo7816 yes but im not talking about what the should do or what should happen or what would be fun or what id like; im talking about whats most likely to happen given how ggg aproaches changing things. so with mf, theyre most likely to either remove it entirely, or just keep it as is. So what im saying is that people complaining about the state of current MF will only make ggg consider removing it rather than changing it
To play mf you normal need to spend like 2-10 mirror to play T 17 maps. How many player have the divine / mirror to do it
Not true lol, I was doing mf in t17 with way less. But, is not an easy task nor cheaper, thats for sure
I started MFing in T17's on about 300div worth of gear. Still Ele Hit of the Spectrum with an elemental bow at the time. Meatsacks farm couldn't be done easily, but anything else was doable.
i have played MF in 10 leagues now. That's what I like about the game. to be able to challenge yourself to be able to build such a strong one with MF. And be able to run almost everything in the game. Removing MF from the game would probably make me stop playing POE.
If people have issues with "power based builds over MF" they should add a tiering system to end game content, Dont want to play MF? Then run a higher tiered (Separate from start map tiering), In a way of how Diablo did it, You'd have your Uber/Uber Uber bosses, But being able to tier them bosses or content to be harder and have a higher chance of loot drops, Something for example:
Uber Shaper (Stardard Tier) is normal drop loot as it was
Uber Shaper (Tiered: 1) 20% more damage and or speed = 10% more chance (On base percentages) to drop better items, Thus making it harder but also more rewarding.
Then being able to tier these up to X tier or indefinitely depending on how you wanted it going.
This would in essence give power hungry builds the same feel as someone who runs it lower but runs with MF.
This is a plausible solution to the problem but it creates another problem, which is never-ending power chase by which the player feels demoralized in never actually experiencing the feeling of dominating the hardest content in the game. People rip on Greater Rifts, Nightmare Dungeons, Monoliths in LE as well for this 'lazy approach' as they call it. I'm personally more warm to the idea of infinite scaling difficulty for infinite scaling rewards, but that's precisely because I'm not a power fantasy player. I'm a loot fantasy player. I'm not so concerned with feeling like I'm utterly dominating content with an outrageously overpowered build.
If MF was viable with more builds, then the discussion of build diversity would be fine, but it's not. You really only see MF with bow skills. That's pretty much it. Now I get this is for high end player but this has an effect on the mid/low end players via the economy, not to mention that now you have to balance maps off MF as they stated if you have high quant/rarity you run lower tier content and it's equivalent to higher tier content which doesn't make sense.
I think this is an issue of too few people exploring MF with other builds. I don’t know a lot of builds out there, but MF Fulcrum is a far cry from bow builds.
I feel like Palsteron didnt make a point very clear that I believe he wanted to (sorry for putting words in his mouth)
Power fantasy players dont feel like they're rewarded for being stronger whereas loot fantasy players do feel like they're rewarded for more mf.
Yeah, this is fundamentally right. And from this point evolves into the build diversity / game difficulty argument. Should the game be so hard that MF can't be used? Should the game be so easy that almost any build can put on MF gear? Somewhere in between?
@@snoobae8553 I think there has to be acceptance that MF players usually are not killing bosses which leaves Power fantasy players bosses to kill for loot. Which is how it currently it for the most part. You don't see a lot of MF toons killing Uber Maven.
The only issue I see here, juiced mapping is typically more fun for a longer period of time than killing Uber bosses 100s of times. Juiced mapping also has about 50 different worthwhile iterations during the course of a league.
@@SunslayerJenkins Kind of, but MF characters can wear an alternative set of gear for bossing at least to a certain extent. I can't exactly just swap to Omniscience from a Supreme Ostentation setup, to be fair.
@@snoobae8553 I'll be honest, that completely escaped me. So yeah, that's something. After hearing / reading you mention it a couple of times, I'm starting to lean towards having MF be outside of gear as a solution.
People tend to see magic find as a build/archetype, and while thats true to some degree, to me it feels more like a farming strat, I am not gonna farm harvest with a mf char, nor ultimatums or expedition, all of which generate huge amounts of currency if done correctly. I feel like a lot of players just arent good enough doing those strats and then feel like the strats suck compared to all the loot they see streamers doing magic find drop, while in reality those streamers could play a different build and generate (close) to the same currency they are doing with magic find.
However I do think magic find needs a couple of changes. To start of you mentioned affliction league started the push back against magic find. Personally I think it was archnemesis where a culler would net you 20x the value and not culling such a monster would just feel bad, I think that attitude stuck around. I would like to see less mechaniques introduced that just work multiplicitave with magic find (e.g archnem/kalandra conversion, affliction and more recently the scarab/currency lines on tier 17 maps)
You're spot on with your diagnosis. I know for certain I'd be making as much or more just blazing through maps with various league mechanics. Hell, Exarch altar rewards (typically loses its appeal week 2) are still incredibly lucrative even now.
Here is the bottom line imo. As soon as MF becomes the most optimal way to play the game in EVERY aspect, its gone too far. As long as you have to make sacrifices to something in order to gain MF, I think MF should exist. This is the same for damage and defense. At a certain point you start to sacrifice one to gain the other. If you add MF into your build, you have to make more sacrifices of either damage or defense or both. I don't see a problem with this. If somehow MF builds became immortal and could do all pinnacle content in such a way that damage and defense were meaningless, we'd have a problem. No one would care about building anything other than MF, you wouldnt have to sacrifice anything to have the best most efficient more powerful build. There's no meaningful interactions in that case. But again thats not how the game works.
Base on thier logic on scaling beyond damage and defense. Just remove headhunter.
It would be nice if Palsteron chills a bit in his responses, he keeps talking over Jonathan every single time he's trying to get across a point. Ofc he's passionate about the idea but it's just not very nice
I agree, but I would take him over talkative tri or Josh any day.
It comes down to choice. Removing it takes away our choice to use it or not (and no, my characters are normally not strong enough for me to justify using MF gear). With it in it doesn't take away a choice for anyone choosing not to use MF gear, they are just sour that other people have access to more items than they do because of their choice. Sure, it can change, but I don't think it should be removed. People should just learn to let others be
I think move speed is just more damage and defense.
Kind of. It’s more efficiency. But with that outlook, damage and defense are the same thing.
I love MF, would be devastated if poe2 didn't have it
So this conversation annoyed me a lot because Jonathan kept asking what changed to make this such an issue now but nobody in that call realized that what changed was mapping supplies went up by over 4X. So obviously when your maps cost 15divines things that allow you to get more out of a single map become more powerful. As far as I’m concerned the maximum a single map should ever cost should be like 6-7 divines and that should be the absolute upper limit
It doesn't matter if the map costs 20c or 20d if you're gonna do something for 8 hours you're gonna do it as efficiently as you can. If that means wearing 0 MF gear or wearing 100quant, players will gravitate towards what the best way to spend their time is.
I think this is a good point and wished it had been brought up. That cost of mapping squeezing out non MF players has certainly become a bigger factor as of late, but the root cause I think has more to do with player knowledge and skill having improved over time and with the game getting easier at the maximum difficulty (excluding recently with T17’s).
15:10 T17 maps......lil bit of awkward...... 😂
my opinion is: keep magic find but also keep other mechanics in the game that don't need magic find to get rewards so that players have options. for example hiest, delve and sanctum don't necessarily need magic find to get good items. I think all the mechanics in the game should be rewarding in their own ways and you should be able to make specific builds that specialize in those mechanics kind of like in ancestor League there were specific builds that were good for running trial of ancestors that do not require magic find
League-specific drops and rewards are plentiful in game now. I also think it serves as a decent workaround to not addressing MF gear head on.
make mf content for every league. remove it from gear. atlas tree power will feel great
Biggest issue for me was that magic find is not equally viable for all build arche types, as in if a certain build requires certain uniques to function, that guarantees you cant be using magic find in those slots, with no way to make up for it in other spaces. So even at a no ceiling budget the mf cap would be lower than other builds. This is usually what shoehorns the meta into as seen in recent years for example bows which are able to use nearly all magic find uniques and still function.
If magic find was a mod that could be invested into on any build at high end budget then it would be fine
I think you can make virtually any build have SOME magic find (even quant gear). Doesn't mean it has to be 50%+ IIQ.
If you wanna run a power charge stacking build you need 4 uniques to enable to do 100M DPS then yeah, but you don't need a build to do 100M DPS to do anything. If you're playing a build that does 20M DPS and can't slot in any MF you're playing a pretty bad or low budget build.
@@bpusef power charge can still get mf on belt, rings, helmet, chest, and gloves. You just get very squishy very quickly
When I first watched this I thought Palestron was too focused on getting across his point and having Jonathan agree with him instead of having an actual conversation about MF.
Yeah, I suppose. I was surprised how Jonathan didn’t cater really. Other than saying he’d go back to asking his team, which is evidently also divided on the issue. Sounds like they made up their mind.
Unpopular opinion (probably): But MF feels bad in PoE1 because of player and monster scaling in PoE1. Since power is given to you and taken away from you exponentially MF is EXCLUSIVELY end-game content. Ruthless MF feels better because it actually makes sense to build it into your character or go back to easier content to try to farm some useful unique or rares. It is a part of the core gameplay experience as opposed to "Now I am done with my build... lets see how much money I can make." It just doesn't feel good (for many, not all or most) when you rely on other players (and sometimes price fixers) to get the gear you need through trade. I'm not saying PoE1 should be Ruthless, but MF in PoE1 is not really fun unless your okay with optimized meta builds and go-go mapping and do it to fund future builds (otherwise why do it?). It doesn't make sense to me from a balance/fun perspective and limits one of the other (aside from loot) best aspects of PoE1 which is build options.
Palstreon is so right : the 96% of non-mf players are completely unable to play the game because of the 6% of mf players that must have multi-mirror build to be able to access completely game-breaking strategies like your -15div/hour farming strategy. /s
Who got roasted here? 🥸
wdym completely unplayable? I still enjoy the game as a non-mfer, cuz i value fun more than making in-game currency in the most optimized way.
From the economy, in a normal league (exclude the broken Affiliation league), MFers make the rare unique not that crazily expensive. They also buy their juice "ingredients" with higher price, such as deli orb, scarabs, so that we can make more money with regular farming strats by farming those ingredients.
@@lucastian6027 True. I wish more people had this take.
Sounds like y’all want the game to be easier.. Many people built up to mirrors because they spent time to play the game and they are more knowledgeable in the game, if it’s too hard then it’s going to be skill issue, sorry not sorry
A bit late to the party, but shouldn't Palsteron in this case not just be hating more on Headhunter?
If you think about it, the only way that these crazy strong MF characters ever work, is primarily through the use of a Headhunter. It's so rare to see an actual high end solo mf build without Headhunter - i only know of a few people who actually runs big mf stats(80%+ quant) without headhunter - so i feel like the problem is in no way with the unique items like goldwyrm. They add to variety and dont remove from it. As you talked about quant on rare gear, could definitely be an possiblity, on top of Headhunter actually getting nerfed in a way that does not make it useless, but just makes it a little less broken, for especially hit based bow builds.
I know this is a different take on the whole "magic find" discussion, but i truly believe Headhunter single handedly is the reasoning for all this magic find hype. Magic find at this point is in my opinion an integral part of POE, that creates way more diversity than not having it, and the fact that weakening your character to get more loot is frowned upon, when you can juice your content - making it harder to receive more loot - is just ridiculous. Either of the listed options are the same, difference being one is character weakening and the other is content getting increasingly higher diffuclity, with the same goal in mind.
I dont know if this small rant adds anything to the discussion, i just feel it's a side that has for the most part been left out.
***Quick Note***
The part about not many builds not using Headhunter is not completely the truth. This league we have of course seen the CoC DD + several different Original Sin Pathfinder builds with MF do the t17's, but that usually involves considerably less Quant, than your standard Headhunter MF bow character, whilst also using either a completely broken skill in the form of CoC DD or an extremly expensive single item in the form of Original Sin, which allows an ascendancy like Pathfinder to shine.
Headhunter is an adjacent issue. Sometimes it relates to MF depending on your angle. Crucible league, for example, I was MFing with Mageblood. I can still make decent league starters with ~50% IIQ and a Bisco's Leash even. It's not like Headhunter is mandatory. It used to be thought of as mandatory because it was so incredibly powerful before that it enables people to wear ridiculously weak gear, like Ascetic and Windripper.
@@snoobae8553 I do see your point of it being an adjacent issue, but that adjacent issue also seems to become one of the main parts of mf'ing, as it is what really enables these very high end mf builds. It's also to be considered that in crucible the difficulty ceiling for mf was waaaaaaaaaay lower than this league or affliction.
As long as the highest end of mapping content is this accessible with a couple hundred divs worth of gear + a Headhunter, like you showcased with your Ele hit of the spectrum build showcase, i definitely personally will continue to see Headhunter being the thing that is the biggest enabler for mf characters.
I will however say that t17's have definitely made it less of a problem as you will probably not see any solo characters run 100+ quant in a fully juiced t17 map. In some ways the release of content seems to be fixing the problem itself.
Depends on how fast content out scales MF gear. My intention was to MF with Mageblood this league. But that was before seeing the difficulty level of T17’s. I’m currently looking into a 87% IIQ character with Mageblood for next league’s build right now.
Maybe this just shifts the blame over to MB, but it’s something, at least.
Just give us quant mf on rare gear but make it really shit, like t1 is 5-6% or something. Then every build can justify putting in some quant here and there. If your build is all uniques then too bad.
I like this idea. Make it weighting 50 even for T1. 😜
This felt awkward. Palestron is so anti magic find it just seemed like he just tried to convince Johnathon all the negatives or something but I personally didn’t hear anything productive. No solutions or ideas per se. Also it woulda been nice to hear someone else that is pro magic find sorta do a pros and cons back and forth. Johnathon didn’t agree or disagree but was indifferent I suppose. It’s hard to explain exactly.
I’ll add that I wonder how much of the “community” actually like, dislike, or are indifferent to magic find rather than a select few who spend time making videos, making Reddit or forums posts etc. I feel like it can be construed what the majority think if the minority are the loudest. I would love it if GGG incorporated how Jagex takes feedback. Personally I wonder how they make decisions when they say “we’ve heard your feedback”, like are they using only retention numbers or what? Not everyone happy wants to share their feelings socially and vice versus. Comparatively jagex shares their polls.
I’m indifferent to magic find. I do have an idea of a trial that I think would be cool and a way to test the waters with no MF. So we currently have magic find and always have had magic find but never a test for no magic find. Also they did talk about how it feels bad to get less loot in higher difficulties tiers and it should be more rewarding. I think it would be an idea to make a league around the idea of testing no magic find and having a baseline. Nothing in a league is guaranteed to stay so it could really be prefaced no magic find will be available. Disable magic find uniques. Disable gold flask. Etc. Try out a baseline MF with map tiers. Maybe like 0 quant and rarity at tier 1 and each map tier progressively has more baseline. (Off the top idea, vs no one in the video offering solutions).
Yes this will ruffle feathers even for a short league, but at the end of the day, you can’t make everyone happy. It’s impossible. But there’s no way to know unless we try it in my opinion.
I’m indifferent in the end. I think Snoobae is the closest inline with how I feel and make valid points that I agree with. I’ve made a bosser one league and made all my currency selling unid watcher eyes. Then other leagues I love map blasting with an MF zoom build.
In the end. Ima keep playing POE regardless
what im hearing is that the devs themselves don't know how to fix anything, or simply don't care to, because they're being paid. hot take but i'm not kind.
There definitely is some of that 'it is what it is' energy coming from Jonathan. I know I've heard GGG devs talk about it being too much of a headache to really address MF gear full on.
@@snoobae8553 I agree. I also don't exactly see a lot of the same issues really being handled going forward in poe2 either.
I don't think that game is going to be the savior most people think it is.
Maybe I'm just crazy, but I seem to remember them saying something like body armor has too much clutter with all six sockets, so they were going to fix it.
Well, their "fix" is just keeping the same thing and moving it onto gems. If anything it's just a visual cleanup of sorts, and a minor one at that. I'm also not a huge fan of how slow poe2 seems so far, but of course even before the MF arguments was made, the "zoom zoom" was already an issue. I don't see a lot of these issues handled yet, at least satisfactorily.
The whole argument of “build diversity is low just cause mf exists” at 20:00 is stupid. It promotes more builds than anything. Gets people thinking “hey can I make a static strike ignite autobomber witch with mf” or of other random shenanigans and unused items suddenly pop up with some great use cases. It’s just another wonderful way to get people to play the game, so why remove it?
While I am obviously for MF as a gearing option generally, I genuinely think the ‘build diversity’ argument is the strongest one, particularly with specific uniques like Goldworms and Ventor’s playing such an important roll. Technically, these are just additional items in the game that could be considered more diverse gear, but most MF builds will feature those two items at least. More importantly though, with MF as a meta endgame, it pigeonholes players to selecting only the very strongest skills than can handle content regardless of a bunch of non-supporting gear pieces. Lightning Arrow, Kinetic Blast, for example. It is really rare when a completely new MF build like Fulcrum enters the fold.
For these reasons, I think the build diversity argument would weaken if we could roll MF stats on rates and not have such bloat to the IIQ stat on very specific uniques.
"slapped my srs build and tens and tons of divines".. lol this is why i hate subtractem.. just pure exaggeration
Ohh, a video discussing mf. Surely this comment section won't be biased (clueless).
The problem with the argument that hard content stifles build diversity. Is that MF stifles build diversity much more, limiting you to a single build that feels worth playing.
Without MF, you can make various builds archtypes and focus on pushing their strengths, without feeling as though you are missing out. Bossers, speeders, delvers, tanks, mappers, or just plain satisfying skills. That's much more diversity than bow, mf, deadeye.
The argument doesn't even really make sense, when you get so powerful you can remove damage / defense and itemize around MF, your want to farm more? but you're already rich? you've already trivialized the hardest content? why would you need more loot at that point? What your supposed to do when your character reaches completion is reroll into other fun builds and try new things, which is made less appealing because you're not playing a character with 400 rarity and 80 quant.
I don't want this Pal influencing poe2. His take from the interview sounds like "its hard." How did these guys fall so far? Their complaint is its hard to build around magic find. I think Jons take was mf encourages build diversity and why would we take away a power sink when we really want more of them. I hope Jon puts more mf in the game because of these two guys. How did Cap L get in the middle of these guys? BTW I don't use mf gear except on a couple of farmers. I like power but I like to take a little toot on some mf every once in a league. I promise I do not have a problem.
Been MFing every league since Legacy basically because it just feels like INSANE FOMO not to do it. If I do 100 maps without, I will just feel like ass knowing I could have gotten more loot. I wish they would just remove it and free me.
free yourself, let my mf alive! wth
I don’t even mind this outcome. They could put MF into the game in even more ways than currently and just make maximum difficulty content that much harder.
This guy should stop comparing himself to others and simply enjoy the game instead of complaining
I honestly think that people playing this game for the "loot fantasy" would have a much better time playing some other games, maybe a wallstreet simulator or some shit. loot fantasy in an arpg? I'm sorry, that sounds awful.
We would all be straight broke from being legit casino gambling addicts if it weren’t for PoE holding us at bay.
I have never seen anyone so mad over MF.... I mean, look at his facial expressions and hand gestures. Is there some trophies being added or something showing you were the ONLY person to kill bosses and hes trying to elitist the game? Sorry I keep editing this as I am watching... What does Palsteron care about who finds what with magic find? Shouldnt he kill all the bosses before someone else does that has MF gear?
He hates MF primarily because he’s a player who loves pursuing the power fantasy, loves making builds for the community, and is probably asked a 100+ times per league if his build can be changed to do magic find, which he has no interest in.
Palsteron is just saying he doesn't want to do it so nobody else should be allowed. "Its not fair! They shouldn't be able to get more drops than me, every skill and gear piece should be equal!"
Except he didn't say that and what's wrong with the last bit anyway? Let's just nerf every proj skill, remove extra proj, make monsters outside a certain radius immune to damage. MF will be nowhere near as popular as it is. Give skills like Earthquake or Bane or any Chaos DoT skill an inherent IIQ and IIR multiplier. You still wouldn't play play them.
It's not fair, it's not fair, it's not fair, that's really all I hear from people that want to get rid of MF. How about you play the game the way you want to play it and I'll play the game the way I want to play it. Look at how irritated Palsteron looks while talking about MF. How does other people using MF affect him and the way he plays, the only argument you could possibly make is the economy which I don't think MF has any significant impact on. Essentially your talking about giving the finger to a large part of the community so you can feel better about the way you play the game.
mf doesnt have any significant impact on the economy, which is why hh was 5d at one point.
@@hayze7006 sounds like a league problem
Wild hearing plestron saying end game content is not hard enough and then he quits this league cuz 17s too hard for him.
Is that why he quit?
@@snoobae8553 his last vid was necropolis bad. Which is fine.
MF is trash and limits build diversity. it feels like it is in a similar place as Spell Suppression, it feels too good to map without it, and here shouldnt be stuff like that in PoE.
I played for 10+ year, i couldnt care less about build diversity
Always trying to take credit for Magic find for some reason.
Me? It’s been around since way before I joined. But people always associate me with MF, which was not actually my intention for the longest time.
Palsteron ruined this podcast lol 😂 talks over Jonathan at very detailed points
I didn’t watch the whole thing as of yet. Surely other segments aren’t so bad.
If magic find is only affecting a very small amount of loot. Y dont just remove it anyways. It is not going to affect the economy. But in reality no magic find is going to massively affect the economy since they are getting the best item from it and everyone is using it aka mageblood. If mageblood is coming from deep depths like 3000 depths. So everyone is going to run delve build. And ruin the build diversity.
I suggest remove magic find becuz almost all build can scale movespeed, damage, damage and tankiness in a certain degree. But only a few build or skills can scale quan or rarity. Aka dd and the best arrow or clear skills.
Some people might say u can do it for having quan on your gear such ventors.
But ultimately some builds may have other build defining unique such as cwdt builds. They cant use ventors or rare with quan or rarity. Second, the materials to run a magic find strategy is forcing you to have the maximum possible quan and rarity or you are going to have a bad or even negative return becuz the pricing is based on the top 1% magic find strategy. This hurt the average player who want to try magic find.
In some degree, i can accept a rarity exist in the game such as map modifiers, keystone, scarab but no quant. People should be rewarded with killing more monsters but not quan with less monsters.
Removing magic find and buffing the global drop to all players is the easiest fix if they want to balance the economy.
Palstron is so dumv
He’s not dumb. He just wants MF on gear removed. It’s not like he’s against juicing and farming raw drops.
Hoping POE1 adopts POE2's magic find. Quant gone, rarity stays on a few key pieces.
Rares or Uniques exclusively?
Then ruin the endgame when you league start high dps build or bosser etc and later just want to spam maps for loot , also mf is moderate in value in SSF and people also run it on Hardcore to certain extent