Very impressed with this video, the facts given, and the interpretation. The imagined route of the fire fighters seems to me to be a logical assumption, and most likely what took place. RIP brave young men...
As a firefighter I ask what can we learn. Studying this scenario gives me a new view on how to be on a fire. For safe travel in avalanche terrain, you gather info on the current snow pack, the weather and the history of the area you are in. If you venture out into avi prone slopes when the danger is extreme you know you are likely to get caught. I admit it is easier to get lucky in fire and get away with being in a place that has potential for extreme fire behavior and have it not materialize but I will always remember my brothers on the Yarnell Hill and from now on, if the potential is there I will keep one foot in the black. I am sick with sorrow at the cost of this valuable lesson.
This day was an absolute tragedy and the men that were lost that day are still remembered. I think about this fire often and the families of those that were lost. I am presenting this fire to my class and this video gives a great, detailed breakdown of what happened that day while respecting the bravery of these men. Never forgotten
Doing wildland, i can understand why they decided to back out. the smoke would have been overwhelming sitting on top of that mountain. what i don't understand is why they wanted to hike down a box canyon without a clear view of the fire. everyone can armchair quarterback, and that's not what i'm trying to do. after looking at the video, it was easy for me to understand why they chose that rout: simply because that ranch looked very close and the fire didn't appear to be traveling that fast when they last saw it. i just wish that the weather forecast for strong winds was taken into greater consideration... then we wouldn't have lost these brave men =\ RIP brothers.
I feel there was so much dry vegetation because of no fires then the wind changing coarse just made the fire run faster then everyone thought it could move The flames created more draft thus moving it faster......It was thick and over ten feet tall in spots....like match sticks.heard some spots you could not even walk through...seeing it after its all burned out gives it no justice....It ran fast.to fast.....You get use to seeing something the same all the time.then it changes...
Im with you right there. I first read the report that it appeared to be very close. Then I saw the footage from the same direction they need and it ridiculously close . I'm only assuming here but Eric rarely was with the group he was all over the place watching the fire. Maybe Eric said let's go the ranch not realizing where his crew was. Then he got to the ranch. He was spotted there by the people living there. I think he saw what his crew was walking into and left a place where he would of been absolutely safe and ran back to the crew to help them. That's what I just imagine happened Eric told them to move out without knowing exactly where they were and the followed because the fire was going the other way and since the ranch is super close we will be fine. Who knows though. But a man leaving his safety to help his people I don't doubt that from him in a second
I think they were scared of the power of the fire Not afraid but scared which maybe affected there decisions. They wanted stop get to safety but instead ended up in the middle
Thanks for posting this so the public can get an idea -- I learned a lot. May they rest in peace and strength come to those who felt this terrible loss. There are no words to express the gratitude I feel toward firefighters everywhere.
The post-fire investigation gave a free-pass to every decision maker in this tragedy by first declaring that no one would be found at fault unless "criminal behavior" was discovered. That alone insured the "no-fault" finding of the final report, even though every facet of the LCES safety guideline was violated. The "halo effect" which surrounds heroes places them above scrutiny. The fictionalized movie adds to the myth since it makes all to be heroes, and in time the movie will become the "documentary" on the tragedy. Even sadder is that the result is likely to be more fire deaths. No one is speaking the truth that an entire Hotshot crew doesn't die because safety rules were being followed --- they died because the rules were NOT followed. The crew had left a known safety area without communicating the fact with anyone, they did so without either a lookout, or maintaining personal view of the fire, and they did it after receiving the weather report that the winds were changing. No one even knows where the crew was going, or what it planned on doing once it got there.... wherever "there" was. The ranch - if that was a destination - was a safe area, but the crew was already IN a safe area. The whole facts will never be known.
On the other hand, you don't need to find anyone at fault to learn from this incident and if there are to be massive lawsuits every time someone dies or is injured doing a dangerous job that's really great for making lawyers rich but does nothing but impoverish the agencies we task with keeping the front line actually safe.
@@gorkyd7912 These days a post mortum report is done on a burn-over or fatal fire to see what crew members did wrong, what they should have done, and how other crews could benefit. Since the Thirty-Mile Fire tragedy in 2001 in Washington, incident reports have been written to do just that.
Very heartbreaking. My deepest condolences to all the family and friends of the firefighters lost. I can't say that there will be any answers found, but I hope this horrific incident is used as an example for future deployments and better means of communication and action to protect are used to protect those that serve to protect us.
What if Marsh heard “at the bottom” instead of “in the bottom”? Then Marsh’s plan and actions become clear and add a lot of credibility to what he was doing. I think Marsh was clear, particularly if he didn't realize his communication didn't make sense to BR or to most any of us in the days and months that followed. Marsh: “picking our way... ...escape route” What Marsh knows: there are two safety zones, the black and the Boulder Springs Ranch. They were pointed out to him. The path to a safety zone is an escape route. (He might think/remember from the ipad that there is a road to it from his ridge.) From his point of view the path to the safety zone is an escape route. He is not escaping. That is just the name of the path he is on. He is telling everyone where the crew is going. They are going “out” via the escape route (his use of out seems to indicate that he is heading back to regroup and reengage. He is not getting out of the fire as he is not in it.). We are viewing Marsh’s words as if he was making an emergency/heavy decision. He is not. He's doing his job notifying command that he is on the way out and by what route. BR is a puzzle because GM is in a safety zone and BR is “in” the thick of it at this time. “Out” to his point of view probably does not mean re-engaging. To BR it likely means getting out of harm’s way. BR is probably thinking “How do you follow an escape route to the safety zone you are already in?” BR asks “you’re in the black?” Marsh responses “Yes.” He then reiterates where his crew is going and by what route and this time adds via the road and the ranch. BR, still confused and wanting clarification asks “.. . The road you saw me on with the UTV, IN the bottom?” To BR that road goes out the bottom by the old road grader. It’s the only way BR has ever gone. Marsh clarifies for BR “Yes the road I saw you on with the UTV.” Marsh has hiked all over the top of that mountain. He is now below the peak and at the bottom if his anchor line. As it turns out he is also almost at the same point on the road where he met up with BR on the UTV and it is also the road to the Boulder Springs Ranch (going the other way. A way BR has never gone.). If Marsh heard “AT the bottom” instead of “IN the bottom,” then Marsh has cleared up any confusion with BR at this point. Because to Marsh, he is AT the bottom of his anchor. He is AT the bottom/end of the line GM has been digging all day. From Marsh's point of view BR now knows exactly where he is and exactly where he is going. There is no additional follow up by BR. Both parties now “Know” what the other is thinking. GM was not escaping. I think they told everyone where they were going and went there. They were going out to re-engage. No one would think to tell them to change plans when the fire behavior changed. Everyone thinks they were in good black. How many times would YOU ask an experienced member of your crew "Could you say that again?" Particularly if their answer was safe, though maybe a bit odd to your thinking. How many times have we all had this conversation and realized later we were on different pages? How do we catch it?
Danny Branderson. 🖕🖕🖕 He wasn't trying to save a damned empty ranch you ass! He was trying to prevent the town of Yarnell, my former home, from burning. May your home catch on fire and no one shows up to save it!
Marsh knew they were evacuating Yarnell and also knew they declared many of the structures indefensible. They had more than enough resources in Yarnell to handle the evacuation. Now I'm sorry you lost your home. I'm a hell of a lot more distressed about the GMIHC firefighters. Marsh may have had the best intentions, we'll never know. The facts remain that had he followed protocol and posted a lookout, known what the weather was doing and knew what the fire was doing all along, this may not have happened. Nothing that can be rebuilt or regrown is worth someone's life.God bless the crew and their families
GPS should be standard after this incident. Would it have saved them in the box canyon, tough to say but it would have given them a chance? The million dollar question will always be why they left the black for the ranch. So many theories, yet no solid proof. Wildfires are extremely dangerous, trying to operate multiple teams all over the grid is challenging. GPS can help with this, still they took their eyes off of the monster and the next time they saw it, it was on top of them. RIP 19.
In New England, but was so saddened on 6/30/13 when I saw this news. Those 20 firefighters and their colleagues on other crews do thankless, hard work. My prayers are with the 19 families and that they know our nation's gratitude.
This was a powerful video. I appreciate the work that was done to put this together. It was hard to watch and imagine what the hots shots went through. My heart goes out to the friends and family of those who were lost that day.
Was there any kind of investigating regarding the transmission from Granite Mountain saying they were picking their way through the black and where exactly was it that they had seen the other guy on the UTV? What I am not clear on here is , were they in fact in the black at this time and in the direction of wwwhere they claimed re the UTV or was this all BS? I cxant figure this out because if they were really going the way they said over the radio, it sounds like this was a completely safe route, no one seemed concerned. To be blunt was this BS because they knew if they said their accurate route they would get called out because the "black" from what I see is mostly north/west not the south east route taken.
This is the best video I've seen on the fire. Its shocking how fast this fire went. I read where the thunderstorm caused 2 types of tornados that caused the fire to move much faster than expected. The Yarnell city fire chief said that the State didn't take the fire seriously, and that they could have put it out or at least almost put it out the night before but they just watched it.
At 9:24 of this video, the narrator is illustrating something that was incorrectly taken out of context. Based on what I've read, Div A's report should read, "I want to pass on that. We're going to make our way to our escape route." The first sentence was in direct response to a request from command to Div A , asking if he could deploy his resources into Yarnell. There is question regarding why Div A and his hotshot crew made the move into the canyon from their safe zone in the black. I think the reason is clear. They were requested to move to Yarnell, and at the time Div A declined, but after consulting with his crew, they made the choice to do so and got caught.
Marsh violated set rules. 1. Went from the black into a box canyon, full of fuel. 2. No lookout used. 3. Did not keep fire in sight at all times. 4. Poor communication. Researched radio transmission later showed Marsh made it to the Ranch. J. Steed did not think it was a good idea to come down. He was ordered down. Steed radiod Marsh- Were not going to make it. Marsh replied- I know, I'm sorry. Somehow Marsh made it back to die with his men. This is documented in the book...Mega Fire by Michael Kodas
I uploaded this video into my video editing software and turned up the volume so you could hear it better. Let me know if your interested in using it as a replacement, or at least to replace the audio in this version.
There so many unknowns but I think it is reasonable to call out policies and procedures that may have contributed to this tragedy and look at alternative scenarios, ie. what might have happened if. Since no one can know what really happened, it's not really fair to call out the crew on this. However, if folks can identify some safety issues to be used in the future, we should do so.
Is there a rule that you can’t leave the black if there is no overwatch (plane or lookout)? Same effect with large tornados that change direction and speed and are not visible (el reno) and storm chasers are too close. What about dropping heat sensors as part of prep?
In hindsight, at least one member of the crew should have been equipped with a transponder. That way their position could have been actively tracked. Had this been the case, the DC-10 pilot would have been able to drop the retardant on their shelter location and may have given them a chance. Instead, the pilot was loitering and just waiting to hear back on where they were. Also in hindsight, perhaps evacuation procedures should be rewritten so that the escape route stays "in the black" and does not traverse over unburned areas.
By the time they realized they were in trouble there was only a couple minutes before the fire reached them. There was no time for the plane to reach them in time.
Safety zone locations vary. Sometimes they're in the black, and sometimes not. When they are not already in the black, however, it is not uncommon to blackline so that there is black between the fire and the safety zone. I get crossing unburned area to get to safety, but not having a line between the two was dangerous and ultimately tragic. Indeed these protocols have been in place for decades. Why this happened this way is an unknown...
It came at them to fast...nothing could be done when the wind changed...As soon as the fire grow it became even faster....just ran them over...The only thing that could of saved them was not being there...This was not part of the plan the fire coming back...
Having a drop right on the shelter location would have killed them, I have seen a drop that missed the mark and crushed a brush truck, also, I knew a 20+ year fire veteran that was killed last summer when a VLAT missed the drop site and it killed him and severally injured three others. You don't want to get hit with that much water or FR.
Perhaps GPS tracking of crews is a way forward? my apologies if this has already been done. Also, why didn't the AZ fire service start by building a wider fire break closer to Yarnell and PV? I only ask out of curiosity, I am not a firefighter just trying to understand the data and why. These guys are hero's and I pray that their sacrifice saves other firefighters lives.
Arizonian born and raised I'm 21 years old and been thinking about going to fire science school. I love helping my community and people a good samaritan everyday but now i want to do something bigger Hotshot or smokejumper would be a extraordinarily badass lifestyle but serving my country had always been my dream weather it be national guard special forces or Navy. I wanna be on a team of brothers that give their all and wont back down. Granite mountain Hotshots your my idle and legendary individuals thank you for everything you do RIP from Arizona
this maybe a stupid question but im just wondering if someone could explain.. why cant they use GPS? the air support maybe could easily track n locate the hotshot team if there is some kind of GPS in place
It. been quite a while since I"ve been on a significant fire. When I started on a hotshot crew the crew Surperintendent required me to memorize "The Ten Standard Fireghting Orders, the "Thirteen (Yes, I now I'm old) Situations that shout watchout, and the motto of "one foot in the black. These four sets of rules and LCES should memorized every year by all folks who will be involved in or or direct fighting an any fignhting agency What Smoke really said was, "Grasshopper back to the basics.
Wild firefighting seems like a job that could be tremendously improved with more focus on active technology deployment - Particularly between aircraft in the area and crews on the ground. If the ground supervisors had a device that constantly pinged their GPS coordinates to command HQ or to the aircraft itself, they would know precisely where to dump water in an emergency. Also seems like it’d be worthwhile if the ground supe could communicate directly with the co-pilots, as they’re in a great position to direct where fire suppressant is most needed. We have the tech capability now to create systems to aid in this - perhaps ground supe could wear a touchscreen (smartphone like device) where they can send text msg updates to the flight crew, and better yet, graphically circle in over google-maps, the exact area where water is needed. fire is such a dynamic, unpredictable force, seems like the supe, along with his spotters, could be in the best position to help coordinate air response - especially when smoke cover hampers visibility for flight crew. Multiple teams on the ground could have their own aircraft assigned to them, so multiple teams aren’t necessarily competing for attention of the same aircraft.
We do have our GPS coordinates with us but nothing compared to what you described. It's a great idea and a great investment. I don't why tho but all of our equipment costs alot of money and most of the time if we want something that could be a life saver nine times out of ten I would have to buy it out of my own pocket. Fire stations hate to spend money but at what cost are you willing to save money ya know. I could have really used a GPS pinger in the last wildfire I was in. Forresty (cherokee national forest) Monroe County: called for GPS coordinates I grab our GPS from the chief we are the only two on the mountain cutting a line and waiting for more crew to arrive with a engine. We'll it doesn't work doesn't have any signal (state provided equipment at its finest) so I give them our location by river. They figure out where we are after about ten minutes of repeating what I just said. Night falls and we had already split up and a rookie had came half way up this steep mountain to watch me and to make sure I wasn't cut off by the fire.
Just saw the movie about this. It's sad when anyone loses their lives doing their job. 19 men is a big tragedy. I hope at least some lessons were learned so this doesn't happen again. 10-12 mph doesn't sound fast, but the average human can't run that fast especially being tired and inhaling smoke.
Why did they leave the black if they knew their lookout was evacuated right?. Downhill in the green with no lookout only thing I can think is rookies or panic RIP GM
Hola, soy de Incendios Forestales en México, quiero traducir, reproducir y distribuir en México este video, ¿con quien tengo que comunicarme para obener un permiso para el uso de este material? Muchas gracias. ***** Hi, I'm Wildfires in Mexico, I want to translate, reproduce and distribute this video in Mexico, Who do I have to contact for permission to use this material? Thanks in advance.
Sir, Please go to bit.ly/LLCYarnell. There you will find the Yarnell Hill Briefing video is available to download. Use the video as you see fit. Please share any translated video that you produce!
Muchas gracias, ya visite su pagina y descargue el archivo, lo traduciremos posteriormente lo difundiremos entre el personal combatiente de incendios forestales en México. **** Thank you very much, I visit their website and download the file, I will then translate an then spread among the firfigther personal in Mexico.
hola trabajo en incendios forestales en chile en operaciones y realiso instrucion en incendios forestales me gusatria tener este video en español seria posible
Just an idea; what if wind awareness (W) was added to the LCES basics, (LCESW)? In particular, W for awareness of regional wind stability. In seems like with wild fires, if people know what is happening with the wind, they have a reasonable ability to predict fire behavior. Every fire fighter knows the weather prediction for the day and they know the wind in their location on the job. Maybe with Yarnell, if there was a higher degree of sensitivity to erratic changes in the wind in a 50 mile radius of the fire, they may have made better decisions. They had the latest weather updates, they didn't seem to value that info enough. Maybe it's just me, but I find LCES isn't very memorable to civilians. How about Lo-Co-SEW? Lookouts-Communications-Safety zones, Escape routes, Wind awareness. It could be taught to the 1988 song Ko-ko-mo by The Beach Boys. Wacky, but memorable. So when people are in severely stressful fire situations, they remember the relaxing song and remember the basics.
The military has these pocket aerial flares, it’s just a metal tube you pull and a flare shoots out high kind of like a high powered Roman candle but they can fit in your pocket. Wild land firefighters should have the same so air attack can see their location during an emergency.
I wish they would have had a transponder or even a simple flare gun or colored smoke bombs; something that would have shown the tankers where they were. A huge amount of dropped water would have probably saved them but they had trouble locating them.
Have you ever been in a large wildfire? The tanker wouldn't have seen a flare or colored smoke, the smoke from the fire would be so intense that no ground signal would work. I am a career Firefighter/Paramedic and have been on numerous wildland fires, I understand that you are throwing out suggestions, however, if you have not been in the shit, you have no idea. God hope that I never need to deploy my shelter in a fire. These brave men sacrificed everything to try and help people and stop the fire. RIP brothers.
Interesting that there can be regions of near normal rainfall right next to, and surrounded by, regions of severe drought. That means people - lay people, at least - living in one area can be less than fully aware of the severity in another, and less than mindful of fire safety in their actions when they cross those boundaries.
There are even areas with extremely moist conditions bounded by extreme drought -- dark green zones next to orange zones. The transition must happen within a few miles.
I am doing a final project for critical reading class and I am writing a 4-6 page research, read and design project on how the Yarnell fire could have sped up its containment time. It could have ultimately prevented it but I am still doing research on that since I did not know about the Yarnell fire until I started this project. I believe that the new technology that we have today of robot-assisted search and rescue could have ultimately contained the fire much faster. Nevertheless, prevention of fires is also very important.
good night wanted the video translated into Portuguese, I am fireman fighting forest fires also give instruction to fire, as combeter forest fires .. Thank you a hug
I would like to know how many of the 10 orders and 18 watchouts were violated. As in many other similar incidents, there was a refusal to give up in the face of a hopeless situation. The approaching outflow should have been the cue to get in the black and stay there. In that fuel type, hand line will not hold, and the smart thing to do is recognize the fire is going to win.
WildlandFireLLC Hindsight bias applies to all incidents, but there are important similarities in most of the fatal incidents. I listened to a recording of the radio traffic and it appears the division supervisor thought the hotshots were in the black, way back up on the ridge, where they were working originally. I can't figure out who told them to move, or if they decided to move on their own, but it's evident the overhead didn't know where they were. They seemed completely baffled when Granite Mountain 7 called in and said they were in trouble.
I believe all firefighters are heroes. If you doubt that remember the firefighters of 9-11 and the more than 20,000 wildland firefighters deployed during the 2020 fire season. All are heroes and almost all return home. Of their number, I consider hot shot crews to be the best trained and are deployed to the most difficult and dangerous parts of a fire. Of my 12 years in fire management, I consider my best years to be with the Dalton Hot Shots. Hot shot supervisors are trained for and tasked with providing safe working conditions above anything else. Not only are supervisors to pay attention to weather conditions, they are also tasked with determining what a fire will do and when. Supervisors are asked to communicate often with their supervisors and not change their assignment without notification to management. Other long standing rules apply. Know what your fire is doing at all times, observe personally and use scouts.” Keep one foot in the black. In Granite Mountain’s case, not only was the black safe for them but they were appropriately positioned to observe the fire and attack it if necessary. We do not know what was going though the Superintendent’s mind but from what we do know his actions doomed his crew and we do know what many of those actions were. It’s time to recognize those actions and embrace them so another crew doesn’t meet Granit Mountain’s fate. And yes, I do believe the men of Granite Mountain are heroes too.
That's fine, but "heroes" also make mistakes that cost lives. Finding out what those mistakes are, who made them and why will save future lives. Problem is we're so busy ringing the Hero Bell we refuse to do make that final, necessary step because it hurts our feelings saying that they were anything but perfect. As a result more people die unnecessarily.
It means a "safe zone" where the area had been burned and was pretty much clear of fire, so a safe area to fall back on. "the black" refers to the burnt ground.
In an area that has been burned and is not likely to be burned further. It is a safer area than in an area with unburned fuels. That's one of the unanswered question of this accident.
The point of the tones is the let everyone know that emergency traffic will follow the tones, it works and has a purpose. When I hear the tones I know to listen as a hazard, rescue or other life threatening safety concerns will only follow the emergency tones.
i would have ran...i know it prob would not have worked, but anyone should know not to deploy in a box canyon with ground level vegetation ....but the guys at storm king ran, and it saved some lives....
@@robertreynolds1167 running through thick brush on uneven ground is a lot harder and slower than an atheltics track. They had 2 minutes headstart which is nothing. By time they realised the grave danger this was literally nothing they could do but hope an air crew dropped water/fire retardant on their exact location.
the ones closes to the top of the ridge were lucky....anyone below them didnt make it.....who told them it was a good idea to walk down a green ridge to fight a fire at the bottom???
I have a question: if they stayed in the black will they survive? If they walked more along the black will they survive? If someone come and get them by vehicle/ helicopters was it possible ? Please anyone knowledgable answer please. Was there any other option for them to pick up the route back to survive ? Anyone ? Please ...
Had they have stayed in the black, like well into the black, then absolutely they would have made it. For those who don't know, "the black" is an area the fire has previously been and has already burned up all the fuels in the area. No fuels to burn, no fire. With the winds, if they were just on the edge of the black, maybe not but well into the black where they were originally were before they started moving towards Boulder Springs Ranch? Absolutely, they would have been just fine. As far as a helicopter at the deployment site, air attack didn't even know where they were, add that with the amount of heat and smoke and the helicopter couldn't have got in to them. Had they have made it to the ranch, they'd have been fine as the two people and animals there made it and it burnt right over them. Point is, they should have stayed and nobody alive really knows why they left the black.
Let's not armchair Quarterback this as nobody is alive to say why. I do agree that staying in the black would be the safest place to be, however, the mistake took 19 lives. RIP brothers.
Deployed in Prescott in April of 03. May have known deceased. Conditions then as now. Yes, a major fire erupted to a type 1. Did our tour n shipped back to Nevada where my.home base is. Rah, Rah,Rah Granite Mtn. For your sacrifices!!
The fire is discovered at night and is deemed unsafe to attack until the next day, why? The best time to initial attack fires is when they are small. What made attacking the fire upon discovery unsafe, because it was night? We used to do it all the time, sometimes it took awhile to find it, but once we did we could size it up and fight it. Fire managers have gotten away from initial attack upon discovery. There is no question that night time firefighting tactics are different than daytime, but they are not necessarily unsafe and in fact more effective.
This crew wasn’t going to sit in the black. They wanted to reposition to get ready to readdress the fire after it blew through Yarnell. They got a horrible break with the dramatic change in the wind direction and velocity and 99 out of 100 times this wouldn’t have happened. But they weren’t going to sit it out. No way. Warriors forever.
Sad but Marsh killed his crew. You do t cut through un burned brush as high as ten feet in some places with no look out watching your back. I’m sure the guilt he feels is immense if he’s in heaven but he killed those 18 other men.
Anyone know about any progress being made on the NASA aided development of a much improved portable fire shelter? they started after the Arizona tragedy, using the latest materials science , inspired by heat shields already used on space rockets to protect the craft from atmosphere friction heat. From what little I’ve read about it, it sounds like it could help a firefighter survive prolonged contact with direct flame..
The issue at hand with the fire shelter they carry today is weight and bulk. Of course you can make it better, but you will always add either weight or bulk. Independent investigators determined that temperatures at the deployment site were 2,000 degrees for over two minutes with direct flame contact to the shelters and a reported flame front 40 feet high in brush that had not burned on 60 years. I have attached a link to my reply that shows the post-incident scene investigations. As you can see from the picture, many of the shelters suffered massive delamination. It's clear from the picture if you zoom in on it that they were taken by surprise as to how quickly the flame front was moving. They deployed in a area strewn with rocks and 2 foot tall grass and 10 foot tall scrub, which is less than desirable. Deploy a shelter over softball sized rocks and just one section of the shelter is off the ground and that super heated gas from the fire entering the shelter is what the Maricopa County Medical Examiner determined was the initial cause of death for many of them. www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1536&bih=702&ei=h-Q9XZeXJMaEsAX3_rGIDQ&q=yarnell+hill+fire+bodies&oq=yarnell+hill+&gs_l=img.1.7.0l10.1976.5398..12928...0.0..0.77.980.15......0....1..gws-wiz-img.....0..35i39.MyikCoH9Am8#imgrc=DxRwam5C_W3tUM:
This fire was burning at a rate of 10mph, and if we convert this to feet per minute, it converts to 880 feet per minute. The next thing to do (in order to understand how this relates) is to determine how long it takes for the fire, at 10mph, to travel 1 mile. If one mile is 5280 feet and it takes 1 minute for this fire (at 10mph) to travel 880 feet? It takes two minutes for the fire to travel 2 x 880, or 1,760 feet in two minutes. In four minutes the fire is capable of traveling 2 x 1,760, or 3,520 (getting close to 1 mile). In four minutes the fire is capable of traveling 2 x 3,520 feet or 7,040. What we learn from this is that the fire is capable of traveling 1 mile in from between three and four minutes. To even think about walking in front of a 10mph fire line, when the fire is clearly 1 to 2 miles off in the distance is suicide. I think this is a case of not understanding the math involved.
you hear it all the time in sports, Speed kills......It being so dry and then the wind picking up they could not out walk it... No one expected the fire to run the way it did... It had more food then normal,so no gaps,just jumping forward eating everything......SPEED KILLS.,,,R,I.P........ Waiting all night and doing nothing was the mistake that killed them...Should of been dropping water on it right away.they all knew how dry it was...they tell you over and over...But waited tell the morning....
I hope to God that not only HS crew Supes, but also aircraft can improve their spotting techniques using GPS or some alternative method to do more than the “Look-See” method used now to see crews below. 7 unsuccessful drop passes? Even Hiroshima and Nagasaki we’re 1st attempt pinpoint targets WITHOUT GPS technology! Walkie-talkies and lookouts are the best we have after so many tragedies like this? I know that hindsight is 20/20 , but isn’t there any possible way to improve communications among these agencies and crews, for God’s sake? One phoscheck drop might have saved these guys or at least given them a fighting chance!
I've been a wildland firefighter for 13 yrs. In classroom studies in fatality fires they are near similar case studies. So my thought after viewing this may be they were going to the ranch as a safety zone but got cut off and ended up deploying in that bowl. It's just my thought I have but who knows?. With some protection those rocks and boulders.
I'm angry and baffled at how shit like this can happen...with modern gps and personal locator becons, like wtf! how can they not be found in time by an aircraft? We chuck millions of dollars into space programmes and into electric bullshit vehicles but cant adequately protect these guys!!! c'mon.
The irony is that there are fuel-free boulder fields less than 200 m away on both sides of the canyon. With rocks so huge you can get between and under them.
no....the boulders were all cracked from the over 3000 degree fire storm....the fire burned down on them with super headed gasses.... fire shield are resisted up to 300 degrees with the seems starting to separate at 500 degrees....the one at fault is Marsh....half of the crew were rookies....fire fighting 101...is to NEVER EVER leave the black to walk down into a box canyon with fire at the mouth....not keeping any eye on the fire....knowing that it had blasted though were doughnut was....very sad.....but it was extreme negligence...yarnell wasnt going to be protected and they had already deemed it a loss....marsh wasnt being a hot shot....he was being a hot dog!!!
@@sabinamclaughlin428 19:29 To the left of the frame is what I mean (area is larger than it looks from the camera point of view). The rocks are still tan colored and there are green plants among them. That entire ridge extending away from the camera is similar. Had they descended that route, they could have kept visual contact with the fire and had a ready -made natural shelter in the rocks. The terrain forther down the ridge looks even safer (rockier) as you go east. I live near the area, one of these days I should hike that rock zone and just see what it was like. It would be tougher going than a flat trail, but would have offered shelter from the storm.
Papa Marsh was a brave, tough man who was also an incompetent Sup who killed his whole team with a couple of shitty and poorly-explained decisions at just the wrong time. Every one of those hotshots died like heroes, but only one of them died a failure. I'm sorry, but it's true. Stay safe.
Never heard of a city fire department maintaining a traveling, inter-agency forest/wildfire unit, responding to fires the city has no responsibility for. City fire responses are limited to structural fires. The motive had to be profit; Prescott could rent the team out to both State and Federal agencies for big bucks per incident.
I work as a career Firefighter/Paramedic and my department has a wildland program and send out 1-3 teams as needed and we backfill the spots, it's more common than you think.
No one knows unless they’ve done it, and I did. Hotshots as was the best fucking job I’ve ever had. I was Still In fire in 2013 but not a hotshot, cause I was older. That job s for the young, and then the beautiful young men got burnt up, and I have survivors remorse. It’s been 9 years, but still hard. I love you my brothers, i would say say safe,but none of us joined to stay safe. HAVE FUN !!! Is a much better option. ,
I will never forget. That day our crew was there BLUE RIDGE HOTSHOTS MY SUPE BRIAN PICKED UP BRENDEN AN MOVED THERE BUGGIES WE ALL THOUGH THEY WERE IN A SAFETY ZONE UNTIL JESSE STEED BROKE IN ON THE COMS THERE IS A PICTURE OF HUDDLED AROUND LISTENING TO BRENDENS RADIO THEN WE GASED UP THE UTVS AND WENT IN NEVER FORGET GMH19 LINE OUT IN PEACE BROTHERS !
Granite mountain Hotshots...there it is.......there it is! Wanna puke that movie sucked so bad. Hey let's get Jeff Bridges to sing ghost riders in the sky! Ummmm...how 'bout no? And let's line dance to Copperhead road! Oh please....where's the bleach? Nurse: Y'all heroes. Oh god!
Very sad, not too sure what 19 men could of done to prevent any of this, totally avoidable if they where trying to save the town Yarnell or the ranch, Sometimes you just have to back down and nature play it course, not right to die this way, especially with all the tech we have.
the news keeps say they were a obsolete crew, well if they were so obsolete why are they dead? for one they new there was a thunder storm approaching. So why did you go into the back country with a storm approaching? Hello out flow winds are ahead of a thunder storm. Why did you pull the dam crew out of the black and did not tell anyone? You went down hill where you could not see the fire? You had no safety zone once you left the black? Your lookout was no good to you once you left the area! You did not keep in comm with other forces! Someone needs to be accounted for this, Why walk into a fire and take lunch? Hello watching the column change should have told you there was a wind change! People getting killed over dam trees has to stop.
Thomas James Billman. "Someone needs to be accounted for this"? You're speaking of the 19 Hotshots and their actions?You don't think losing their lives was enough? Do you even know where this fire was, have you been there, lived there, know the terrain and how quickly the weather changes? Obviously not but I DID live there!
Very impressed with this video, the facts given, and the interpretation. The imagined route of the fire fighters seems to me to be a logical assumption, and most likely what took place. RIP brave young men...
As a firefighter I ask what can we learn. Studying this scenario gives me a new view on how to be on a fire. For safe travel in avalanche terrain, you gather info on the current snow pack, the weather and the history of the area you are in. If you venture out into avi prone slopes when the danger is extreme you know you are likely to get caught. I admit it is easier to get lucky in fire and get away with being in a place that has potential for extreme fire behavior and have it not materialize but I will always remember my brothers on the Yarnell Hill and from now on, if the potential is there I will keep one foot in the black. I am sick with sorrow at the cost of this valuable lesson.
This day was an absolute tragedy and the men that were lost that day are still remembered. I think about this fire often and the families of those that were lost. I am presenting this fire to my class and this video gives a great, detailed breakdown of what happened that day while respecting the bravery of these men. Never forgotten
Doing wildland, i can understand why they decided to back out. the smoke would have been overwhelming sitting on top of that mountain. what i don't understand is why they wanted to hike down a box canyon without a clear view of the fire. everyone can armchair quarterback, and that's not what i'm trying to do. after looking at the video, it was easy for me to understand why they chose that rout: simply because that ranch looked very close and the fire didn't appear to be traveling that fast when they last saw it. i just wish that the weather forecast for strong winds was taken into greater consideration... then we wouldn't have lost these brave men =\ RIP brothers.
I feel there was so much dry vegetation because of no fires then the wind changing coarse just made the fire run faster then everyone thought it could move The flames created more draft thus moving it faster......It was thick and over ten feet tall in spots....like match sticks.heard some spots you could not even walk through...seeing it after its all burned out gives it no justice....It ran fast.to fast.....You get use to seeing something the same all the time.then it changes...
They made a stupid decision that got them killed
They went from seeing the fire to loosing sight when they went into the box. Someones judgement call caused lives.
Im with you right there. I first read the report that it appeared to be very close. Then I saw the footage from the same direction they need and it ridiculously close . I'm only assuming here but Eric rarely was with the group he was all over the place watching the fire. Maybe Eric said let's go the ranch not realizing where his crew was. Then he got to the ranch. He was spotted there by the people living there. I think he saw what his crew was walking into and left a place where he would of been absolutely safe and ran back to the crew to help them. That's what I just imagine happened Eric told them to move out without knowing exactly where they were and the followed because the fire was going the other way and since the ranch is super close we will be fine. Who knows though. But a man leaving his safety to help his people I don't doubt that from him in a second
I think they were scared of the power of the fire Not afraid but scared which maybe affected there decisions. They wanted stop get to safety but instead ended up in the middle
Thanks for posting this so the public can get an idea -- I learned a lot.
May they rest in peace and strength come to those who felt this terrible loss. There are no words to express the gratitude I feel toward firefighters everywhere.
The post-fire investigation gave a free-pass to every decision maker in this tragedy by first declaring that no one would be found at fault unless "criminal behavior" was discovered. That alone insured the "no-fault" finding of the final report, even though every facet of the LCES safety guideline was violated. The "halo effect" which surrounds heroes places them above scrutiny. The fictionalized movie adds to the myth since it makes all to be heroes, and in time the movie will become the "documentary" on the tragedy. Even sadder is that the result is likely to be more fire deaths. No one is speaking the truth that an entire Hotshot crew doesn't die because safety rules were being followed --- they died because the rules were NOT followed. The crew had left a known safety area without communicating the fact with anyone, they did so without either a lookout, or maintaining personal view of the fire, and they did it after receiving the weather report that the winds were changing. No one even knows where the crew was going, or what it planned on doing once it got there.... wherever "there" was. The ranch - if that was a destination - was a safe area, but the crew was already IN a safe area. The whole facts will never be known.
On the other hand, you don't need to find anyone at fault to learn from this incident and if there are to be massive lawsuits every time someone dies or is injured doing a dangerous job that's really great for making lawyers rich but does nothing but impoverish the agencies we task with keeping the front line actually safe.
@@gorkyd7912 These days a post mortum report is done on a burn-over or fatal fire to see what crew members did wrong, what they should have done, and how other crews could benefit. Since the Thirty-Mile Fire tragedy in 2001 in Washington, incident reports have been written to do just that.
Their radios weren’t working the whole day though I thought?
Great video to educate those who want to learn more about wildland firefighting and the arduous nature of the profession.
May they rest in peace, heroes
Very heartbreaking. My deepest condolences to all the family and friends of the firefighters lost. I can't say that there will be any answers found, but I hope this horrific incident is used as an example for future deployments and better means of communication and action to protect are used to protect those that serve to protect us.
What if Marsh heard “at the bottom” instead of “in the bottom”? Then Marsh’s plan and actions become clear and add a lot of credibility to what he was doing. I think Marsh was clear, particularly if he didn't realize his communication didn't make sense to BR or to most any of us in the days and months that followed.
Marsh: “picking our way... ...escape route”
What Marsh knows: there are two safety zones, the black and the Boulder Springs Ranch. They were pointed out to him. The path to a safety zone is an escape route. (He might think/remember from the ipad that there is a road to it from his ridge.) From his point of view the path to the safety zone is an escape route. He is not escaping. That is just the name of the path he is on. He is telling everyone where the crew is going. They are going “out” via the escape route (his use of out seems to indicate that he is heading back to regroup and reengage. He is not getting out of the fire as he is not in it.). We are viewing Marsh’s words as if he was making an emergency/heavy decision. He is not. He's doing his job notifying command that he is on the way out and by what route. BR is a puzzle because GM is in a safety zone and BR is “in” the thick of it at this time. “Out” to his point of view probably does not mean re-engaging. To BR it likely means getting out of harm’s way. BR is probably thinking “How do you follow an escape route to the safety zone you are already in?”
BR asks “you’re in the black?”
Marsh responses “Yes.” He then reiterates where his crew is going and by what route and this time adds via the road and the ranch.
BR, still confused and wanting clarification asks “.. . The road you saw me on with the UTV, IN the bottom?”
To BR that road goes out the bottom by the old road grader. It’s the only way BR has ever gone.
Marsh clarifies for BR “Yes the road I saw you on with the UTV.”
Marsh has hiked all over the top of that mountain. He is now below the peak and at the bottom if his anchor line. As it turns out he is also almost at the same point on the road where he met up with BR on the UTV and it is also the road to the Boulder Springs Ranch (going the other way. A way BR has never gone.). If Marsh heard “AT the bottom” instead of “IN the bottom,” then Marsh has cleared up any confusion with BR at this point. Because to Marsh, he is AT the bottom of his anchor. He is AT the bottom/end of the line GM has been digging all day. From Marsh's point of view BR now knows exactly where he is and exactly where he is going. There is no additional follow up by BR. Both parties now “Know” what the other is thinking.
GM was not escaping. I think they told everyone where they were going and went there. They were going out to re-engage. No one would think to tell them to change plans when the fire behavior changed. Everyone thinks they were in good black.
How many times would YOU ask an experienced member of your crew "Could you say that again?" Particularly if their answer was safe, though maybe a bit odd to your thinking. How many times have we all had this conversation and realized later we were on different pages? How do we catch it?
bdelder42 well said and you make very valid points. I never thought about it from this perspective.
I appreciate your perspective quite a bit. I think you've hit the nail right on the head.
Danny Branderson. 🖕🖕🖕 He wasn't trying to save a damned empty ranch you ass! He was trying to prevent the town of Yarnell, my former home, from burning. May your home catch on fire and no one shows up to save it!
Marsh knew they were evacuating Yarnell and also knew they declared many of the structures indefensible. They had more than enough resources in Yarnell to handle the evacuation. Now I'm sorry you lost your home. I'm a hell of a lot more distressed about the GMIHC firefighters. Marsh may have had the best intentions, we'll never know. The facts remain that had he followed protocol and posted a lookout, known what the weather was doing and knew what the fire was doing all along, this may not have happened. Nothing that can be rebuilt or regrown is worth someone's life.God bless the crew and their families
wow you have ZERO idea what you are talking about....the ranch was the safety zone...and if anyone is to blame, its jesse steed....
GPS should be standard after this incident. Would it have saved them in the box canyon, tough to say but it would have given them a chance? The million dollar question will always be why they left the black for the ranch. So many theories, yet no solid proof. Wildfires are extremely dangerous, trying to operate multiple teams all over the grid is challenging. GPS can help with this, still they took their eyes off of the monster and the next time they saw it, it was on top of them. RIP 19.
In New England, but was so saddened on 6/30/13 when I saw this news. Those 20 firefighters and their colleagues on other crews do thankless, hard work. My prayers are with the 19 families and that they know our nation's gratitude.
video785r. ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
This was a powerful video. I appreciate the work that was done to put this together. It was hard to watch and imagine what the hots shots went through. My heart goes out to the friends and family of those who were lost that day.
Was there any kind of investigating regarding the transmission from Granite Mountain saying they were picking their way through the black and where exactly was it that they had seen the other guy on the UTV?
What I am not clear on here is , were they in fact in the black at this time and in the direction of wwwhere they claimed re the UTV or was this all BS?
I cxant figure this out because if they were really going the way they said over the radio, it sounds like this was a completely safe route, no one seemed concerned.
To be blunt was this BS because they knew if they said their accurate route they would get called out because the "black" from what I see is mostly north/west not the south east route taken.
This is the best video I've seen on the fire. Its shocking how fast this fire went. I read where the thunderstorm caused 2 types of tornados that caused the fire to move much faster than expected. The Yarnell city fire chief said that the State didn't take the fire seriously, and that they could have put it out or at least almost put it out the night before but they just watched it.
Rest In Peace to the great, courageous, and remarkably brave Granite Mountain Hotshots.
7 years ago today. :( Rest in peace, Heroes!
Sou Brasileiro
E depois que vi o filme todos os dias pesquiso algo sobre eles.
Fico pensando na família, deve ter sido a pior dor do mundo.
At 9:24 of this video, the narrator is illustrating something that was incorrectly taken out of context. Based on what I've read, Div A's report should read, "I want to pass on that. We're going to make our way to our escape route." The first sentence was in direct response to a request from command to Div A , asking if he could deploy his resources into Yarnell.
There is question regarding why Div A and his hotshot crew made the move into the canyon from their safe zone in the black. I think the reason is clear. They were requested to move to Yarnell, and at the time Div A declined, but after consulting with his crew, they made the choice to do so and got caught.
Marsh violated set rules.
1. Went from the black into a box canyon, full of fuel.
2. No lookout used.
3. Did not keep fire in sight at all times.
4. Poor communication.
Researched radio transmission later showed Marsh made it to the Ranch. J. Steed did not think it was a good idea to come down. He was ordered down.
Steed radiod Marsh- Were not going to make it. Marsh replied- I know, I'm sorry.
Somehow Marsh made it back to die with his men.
This is documented in the book...Mega Fire by Michael Kodas
I uploaded this video into my video editing software and turned up the volume so you could hear it better. Let me know if your interested in using it as a replacement, or at least to replace the audio in this version.
There so many unknowns but I think it is reasonable to call out policies and procedures that may have contributed to this tragedy and look at alternative scenarios, ie. what might have happened if. Since no one can know what really happened, it's not really fair to call out the crew on this. However, if folks can identify some safety issues to be used in the future, we should do so.
Is there a rule that you can’t leave the black if there is no overwatch (plane or lookout)? Same effect with large tornados that change direction and speed and are not visible (el reno) and storm chasers are too close. What about dropping heat sensors as part of prep?
In hindsight, at least one member of the crew should have been equipped with a transponder. That way their position could have been actively tracked. Had this been the case, the DC-10 pilot would have been able to drop the retardant on their shelter location and may have given them a chance. Instead, the pilot was loitering and just waiting to hear back on where they were. Also in hindsight, perhaps evacuation procedures should be rewritten so that the escape route stays "in the black" and does not traverse over unburned areas.
By the time they realized they were in trouble there was only a couple minutes before the fire reached them. There was no time for the plane to reach them in time.
Those procedures already exist. Marsh just didn't follow them.
Safety zone locations vary. Sometimes they're in the black, and sometimes not. When they are not already in the black, however, it is not uncommon to blackline so that there is black between the fire and the safety zone. I get crossing unburned area to get to safety, but not having a line between the two was dangerous and ultimately tragic. Indeed these protocols have been in place for decades. Why this happened this way is an unknown...
It came at them to fast...nothing could be done when the wind changed...As soon as the fire grow it became even faster....just ran them over...The only thing that could of saved them was not being there...This was not part of the plan the fire coming back...
Having a drop right on the shelter location would have killed them, I have seen a drop that missed the mark and crushed a brush truck, also, I knew a 20+ year fire veteran that was killed last summer when a VLAT missed the drop site and it killed him and severally injured three others. You don't want to get hit with that much water or FR.
Gives me chills....RIP brothers
Perhaps GPS tracking of crews is a way forward? my apologies if this has already been done. Also, why didn't the AZ fire service start by building a wider fire break closer to Yarnell and PV? I only ask out of curiosity, I am not a firefighter just trying to understand the data and why. These guys are hero's and I pray that their sacrifice saves other firefighters lives.
Wind driven fire doesn’t care about fire lines....it will just spot over it.
Arizonian born and raised I'm 21 years old and been thinking about going to fire science school. I love helping my community and people a good samaritan everyday but now i want to do something bigger Hotshot or smokejumper would be a extraordinarily badass lifestyle but serving my country had always been my dream weather it be national guard special forces or Navy. I wanna be on a team of brothers that give their all and wont back down. Granite mountain Hotshots your my idle and legendary individuals thank you for everything you do RIP from Arizona
RIP Granite Mountain Hotshots and I still feel your presence on whisky row. Love you guys too much.
this maybe a stupid question but im just wondering if someone could explain.. why cant they use GPS? the air support maybe could easily track n locate the hotshot team if there is some kind of GPS in place
It. been quite a while since I"ve been on a significant fire. When I started on a hotshot crew the crew Surperintendent required me to memorize "The Ten Standard Fireghting Orders, the "Thirteen (Yes, I now I'm old) Situations that shout watchout, and the motto of "one foot in the black. These four sets of rules and LCES should memorized every year by all folks who will be involved in or or direct fighting an any fignhting agency What Smoke really said was, "Grasshopper back to the basics.
Lessons here, take potential wind changes extremely seriously. Always keep the fire in view
Wild firefighting seems like a job that could be tremendously improved with more focus on active technology deployment - Particularly between aircraft in the area and crews on the ground. If the ground supervisors had a device that constantly pinged their GPS coordinates to command HQ or to the aircraft itself, they would know precisely where to dump water in an emergency.
Also seems like it’d be worthwhile if the ground supe could communicate directly with the co-pilots, as they’re in a great position to direct where fire suppressant is most needed. We have the tech capability now to create systems to aid in this - perhaps ground supe could wear a touchscreen (smartphone like device) where they can send text msg updates to the flight crew, and better yet, graphically circle in over google-maps, the exact area where water is needed. fire is such a dynamic, unpredictable force, seems like the supe, along with his spotters, could be in the best position to help coordinate air response - especially when smoke cover hampers visibility for flight crew.
Multiple teams on the ground could have their own aircraft assigned to them, so multiple teams aren’t necessarily competing for attention of the same aircraft.
We do have our GPS coordinates with us but nothing compared to what you described. It's a great idea and a great investment. I don't why tho but all of our equipment costs alot of money and most of the time if we want something that could be a life saver nine times out of ten I would have to buy it out of my own pocket. Fire stations hate to spend money but at what cost are you willing to save money ya know. I could have really used a GPS pinger in the last wildfire I was in. Forresty (cherokee national forest) Monroe County: called for GPS coordinates I grab our GPS from the chief we are the only two on the mountain cutting a line and waiting for more crew to arrive with a engine. We'll it doesn't work doesn't have any signal (state provided equipment at its finest) so I give them our location by river. They figure out where we are after about ten minutes of repeating what I just said. Night falls and we had already split up and a rookie had came half way up this steep mountain to watch me and to make sure I wasn't cut off by the fire.
Just saw the movie about this. It's sad when anyone loses their lives doing their job. 19 men is a big tragedy. I hope at least some lessons were learned so this doesn't happen again. 10-12 mph doesn't sound fast, but the average human can't run that fast especially being tired and inhaling smoke.
Why did they leave the black if they knew their lookout was evacuated right?. Downhill in the green with no lookout only thing I can think is rookies or panic RIP GM
Hola, soy de Incendios Forestales en México, quiero traducir, reproducir y distribuir en México este video, ¿con quien tengo que comunicarme para obener un permiso para el uso de este material?
Muchas gracias.
*****
Hi, I'm Wildfires in Mexico, I want to translate, reproduce and distribute this video in Mexico, Who do I have to contact for permission to use this material?
Thanks in advance.
Sir,
Please go to bit.ly/LLCYarnell. There you will find the Yarnell Hill Briefing video is available to download.
Use the video as you see fit. Please share any translated video that you produce!
Si'! Se puede usar ese video si quires. Vaya a: bit.ly/LLCYarnell.
Por favor, si produce un video en espanol, queremos verlo. Gracias
Muchas gracias, ya visite su pagina y descargue el archivo, lo traduciremos posteriormente lo difundiremos entre el personal combatiente de incendios forestales en México.
****
Thank you very much, I visit their website and download the file, I will then translate an then spread among the firfigther personal in Mexico.
Baruk Giovani Maldonado Leal
De nada! Buena suerte!
Cuenten con eso, veré la forma de hacerles llegar una copia.
****
Count on it.
hola trabajo en incendios forestales en chile en operaciones y realiso instrucion en incendios forestales me gusatria tener este video en español seria posible
Just an idea; what if wind awareness (W) was added to the LCES basics, (LCESW)? In particular, W for awareness of regional wind stability.
In seems like with wild fires, if people know what is happening with the wind, they have a reasonable ability to predict fire behavior. Every fire fighter knows the weather prediction for the day and they know the wind in their location on the job. Maybe with Yarnell, if there was a higher degree of sensitivity to erratic changes in the wind in a 50 mile radius of the fire, they may have made better decisions. They had the latest weather updates, they didn't seem to value that info enough.
Maybe it's just me, but I find LCES isn't very memorable to civilians. How about Lo-Co-SEW? Lookouts-Communications-Safety zones, Escape routes, Wind awareness. It could be taught to the 1988 song Ko-ko-mo by The Beach Boys. Wacky, but memorable. So when people are in severely stressful fire situations, they remember the relaxing song and remember the basics.
A large fire like this will create its own weather.
rest in peace brothers.
Making a call on your own is a negative!
So was asm confused on alphas location? Didn’t they clarify location when he mentioned he saw him on the road?
The military has these pocket aerial flares, it’s just a metal tube you pull and a flare shoots out high kind of like a high powered Roman candle but they can fit in your pocket. Wild land firefighters should have the same so air attack can see their location during an emergency.
Wouldn’t have worked due to the height of the plume and the wind was extremely strong.
I wish they would have had a transponder or even a simple flare gun or colored smoke bombs; something that would have shown the tankers where they were. A huge amount of dropped water would have probably saved them but they had trouble locating them.
This. I have a hand held flare the size of a flashlight.
Have you ever been in a large wildfire? The tanker wouldn't have seen a flare or colored smoke, the smoke from the fire would be so intense that no ground signal would work. I am a career Firefighter/Paramedic and have been on numerous wildland fires, I understand that you are throwing out suggestions, however, if you have not been in the shit, you have no idea. God hope that I never need to deploy my shelter in a fire.
These brave men sacrificed everything to try and help people and stop the fire.
RIP brothers.
Good comments and questions by all. I think safety is on everyone's minds not to be in a position to repeat this scenario.
Interesting that there can be regions of near normal rainfall right next to, and surrounded by, regions of severe drought. That means people - lay people, at least - living in one area can be less than fully aware of the severity in another, and less than mindful of fire safety in their actions when they cross those boundaries.
There are even areas with extremely moist conditions bounded by extreme drought -- dark green zones next to orange zones. The transition must happen within a few miles.
could someone tell me how much air support was on that fire?
absolutetruthgirl very little as I know.
So after 6 years, has it even been determined why Marsh moved his men? There's been lots of speculation over the years.
A miscalculation with tragic results.
I am doing a final project for critical reading class and I am writing a 4-6 page research, read and design project on how the Yarnell fire could have sped up its containment time. It could have ultimately prevented it but I am still doing research on that since I did not know about the Yarnell fire until I started this project. I believe that the new technology that we have today of robot-assisted search and rescue could have ultimately contained the fire much faster. Nevertheless, prevention of fires is also very important.
I can't think of a worse way to die man. So sad.
they died fast at least..prob no more than ten seconds of suffering.
Sean Kernan yes my grandson burned to death
Many worse ways to die. In that heat life is measured in seconds. The brain flash boils. No time to burn or suffocate.
good night wanted the video translated into Portuguese, I am fireman fighting forest fires also give instruction to fire, as combeter forest fires .. Thank you a hug
I would like to know how many of the 10 orders and 18 watchouts were violated. As in many other similar incidents, there was a refusal to give up in the face of a hopeless situation. The approaching outflow should have been the cue to get in the black and stay there. In that fuel type, hand line will not hold, and the smart thing to do is recognize the fire is going to win.
Thanks for the comment. Do you happen to know what "hindsight bias" means? It's a worthwhile term to research. Check it out and get back with us.
WildlandFireLLC Hindsight bias applies to all incidents, but there are important similarities in most of the fatal incidents. I listened to a recording of the radio traffic and it appears the division supervisor thought the hotshots were in the black, way back up on the ridge, where they were working originally. I can't figure out who told them to move, or if they decided to move on their own, but it's evident the overhead didn't know where they were. They seemed completely baffled when Granite Mountain 7 called in and said they were in trouble.
you can have so many people watching a fire but things can go completely wrong in one second or many minutes
John Doe agreed Capt.
Local Rationality. Sensemaking. Just Culture. Read the Field guide to Human Error by Sydney Dekker.
I believe all firefighters are heroes. If you doubt that remember the firefighters of 9-11 and the more than 20,000 wildland firefighters deployed during the 2020 fire season. All are heroes and almost all return home. Of their number, I consider hot shot crews to be the best trained and are deployed to the most difficult and dangerous parts of a fire. Of my 12 years in fire management, I consider my best years to be with the Dalton Hot Shots.
Hot shot supervisors are trained for and tasked with providing safe working conditions above anything else. Not only are supervisors to pay attention to weather conditions, they are also tasked with determining what a fire will do and when. Supervisors are asked to communicate often with their supervisors and not change their assignment without notification to management. Other long standing rules apply. Know what your fire is doing at all times, observe personally and use scouts.” Keep one foot in the black. In Granite Mountain’s case, not only was the black safe for them but they were appropriately positioned to observe the fire and attack it if necessary.
We do not know what was going though the Superintendent’s mind but from what we do know his actions doomed his crew and we do know what many of those actions were. It’s time to recognize those actions and embrace them so another crew doesn’t meet Granit Mountain’s fate. And yes, I do believe the men of Granite Mountain are heroes too.
That's fine, but "heroes" also make mistakes that cost lives. Finding out what those mistakes are, who made them and why will save future lives. Problem is we're so busy ringing the Hero Bell we refuse to do make that final, necessary step because it hurts our feelings saying that they were anything but perfect. As a result more people die unnecessarily.
What does in the black mean
It means a "safe zone" where the area had been burned and was pretty much clear of fire, so a safe area to fall back on. "the black" refers to the burnt ground.
In an area that has been burned and is not likely to be burned further. It is a safer area than in an area with unburned fuels. That's one of the unanswered question of this accident.
Rest in Peace brothers.
During an emergency, why are channel guards (tone or digital) used at all?? Seems to me that using such is like planning for disaster.
The point of the tones is the let everyone know that emergency traffic will follow the tones, it works and has a purpose.
When I hear the tones I know to listen as a hazard, rescue or other life threatening safety concerns will only follow the emergency tones.
For information, a 10mph moving fire is traveling at 880' per minute. Per minute, few people could outrun that.
Let alone carrying 20lbs of gear in mountainous terrain. They didn’t stand a chance.
I would've have still took my chances running. There mightve been a chance the wind would've changed directions.
i would have ran...i know it prob would not have worked, but anyone should know not to deploy in a box canyon with ground level vegetation ....but the guys at storm king ran, and it saved some lives....
@@robertreynolds1167 running through thick brush on uneven ground is a lot harder and slower than an atheltics track. They had 2 minutes headstart which is nothing. By time they realised the grave danger this was literally nothing they could do but hope an air crew dropped water/fire retardant on their exact location.
Your correct they more than likely would have made it
the ones closes to the top of the ridge were lucky....anyone below them didnt make it.....who told them it was a good idea to walk down a green ridge to fight a fire at the bottom???
This video gives everyone an idea of what happened that day, very sad. Thank you for posting
I have a question: if they stayed in the black will they survive? If they walked more along the black will they survive? If someone come and get them by vehicle/ helicopters was it possible ? Please anyone knowledgable answer please. Was there any other option for them to pick up the route back to survive ? Anyone ? Please ...
Had they have stayed in the black, like well into the black, then absolutely they would have made it.
For those who don't know, "the black" is an area the fire has previously been and has already burned up all the fuels in the area. No fuels to burn, no fire.
With the winds, if they were just on the edge of the black, maybe not but well into the black where they were originally were before they started moving towards Boulder Springs Ranch? Absolutely, they would have been just fine.
As far as a helicopter at the deployment site, air attack didn't even know where they were, add that with the amount of heat and smoke and the helicopter couldn't have got in to them.
Had they have made it to the ranch, they'd have been fine as the two people and animals there made it and it burnt right over them. Point is, they should have stayed and nobody alive really knows why they left the black.
Video difficult to hear but otherwise gave us a more clear analysis of events. Very Sad!
He should have stayed in the Black
And let yarnell burn....no
LOGAN IRONSIDE and yet Yarnell still didn’t burn and lives were lost. RIP.
Let's not armchair Quarterback this as nobody is alive to say why. I do agree that staying in the black would be the safest place to be, however, the mistake took 19 lives. RIP brothers.
How is that Central Arizona? That is North West area wtf
Super's call. But was he experienced? Heard crew just received type 1 designation. 😒
Deployed in Prescott in April of 03. May have known deceased. Conditions then as now. Yes, a major fire erupted to a type 1. Did our tour n shipped back to Nevada where my.home base is. Rah, Rah,Rah Granite Mtn. For your sacrifices!!
The fire is discovered at night and is deemed unsafe to attack until the next day, why? The best time to initial attack fires is when they are small. What made attacking the fire upon discovery unsafe, because it was night? We used to do it all the time, sometimes it took awhile to find it, but once we did we could size it up and fight it. Fire managers have gotten away from initial attack upon discovery. There is no question that night time firefighting tactics are different than daytime, but they are not necessarily unsafe and in fact more effective.
remember your 10's and 18's!!
why did they leave their safe area at the top ?
Such extremely dangerous work… when Mother Nature will do whatever she wants to anyone anywhere at any time.
This crew wasn’t going to sit in the black. They wanted to reposition to get ready to readdress the fire after it blew through Yarnell. They got a horrible break with the dramatic change in the wind direction and velocity and 99 out of 100 times this wouldn’t have happened. But they weren’t going to sit it out. No way. Warriors forever.
So sad and so scary. Bless our firefighters and keep them safe
Rest in peace.
Sad but Marsh killed his crew. You do t cut through un burned brush as high as ten feet in some places with no look out watching your back. I’m sure the guilt he feels is immense if he’s in heaven but he killed those 18 other men.
Anyone know about any progress being made on the NASA aided development of a much improved portable fire shelter? they started after the Arizona tragedy, using the latest materials science , inspired by heat shields already used on space rockets to protect the craft from atmosphere friction heat. From what little I’ve read about it, it sounds like it could help a firefighter survive prolonged contact with direct flame..
The issue at hand with the fire shelter they carry today is weight and bulk. Of course you can make it better, but you will always add either weight or bulk. Independent investigators determined that temperatures at the deployment site were 2,000 degrees for over two minutes with direct flame contact to the shelters and a reported flame front 40 feet high in brush that had not burned on 60 years. I have attached a link to my reply that shows the post-incident scene investigations. As you can see from the picture, many of the shelters suffered massive delamination. It's clear from the picture if you zoom in on it that they were taken by surprise as to how quickly the flame front was moving. They deployed in a area strewn with rocks and 2 foot tall grass and 10 foot tall scrub, which is less than desirable. Deploy a shelter over softball sized rocks and just one section of the shelter is off the ground and that super heated gas from the fire entering the shelter is what the Maricopa County Medical Examiner determined was the initial cause of death for many of them. www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1536&bih=702&ei=h-Q9XZeXJMaEsAX3_rGIDQ&q=yarnell+hill+fire+bodies&oq=yarnell+hill+&gs_l=img.1.7.0l10.1976.5398..12928...0.0..0.77.980.15......0....1..gws-wiz-img.....0..35i39.MyikCoH9Am8#imgrc=DxRwam5C_W3tUM:
This fire was burning at a rate of 10mph, and if we convert this to feet per minute, it converts to 880 feet per minute. The next thing to do (in order to understand how this relates) is to determine how long it takes for the fire, at 10mph, to travel 1 mile. If one mile is 5280 feet and it takes 1 minute for this fire (at 10mph) to travel 880 feet? It takes two minutes for the fire to travel 2 x 880, or 1,760 feet in two minutes. In four minutes the fire is capable of traveling 2 x 1,760, or 3,520 (getting close to 1 mile). In four minutes the fire is capable of traveling 2 x 3,520 feet or 7,040. What we learn from this is that the fire is capable of traveling 1 mile in from between three and four minutes. To even think about walking in front of a 10mph fire line, when the fire is clearly 1 to 2 miles off in the distance is suicide. I think this is a case of not understanding the math involved.
These guys each need a GPS location unit transmitting at all times. This way we would of known exactly where they were.
The amount of smoke the fire produces makes GPS unreliable. A surveillance drone flying over head would be far more effective.
If they were working on a day off, then the work rest requirements were not met. Plain and simple.
So,you're in the southe end of the fire? Affirm.....don't deploy run......run i say...run southe.....
So sad R.I.P.
you hear it all the time in sports,
Speed kills......It being so dry and then the wind picking up they could not out walk it...
No one expected the fire to run the way it did...
It had more food then normal,so no gaps,just jumping forward eating everything......SPEED KILLS.,,,R,I.P........
Waiting all night and doing nothing was the mistake that killed them...Should of been dropping water on it right away.they all knew how dry it was...they tell you over and over...But waited tell the morning....
I hope to God that not only HS crew Supes, but also aircraft can improve their spotting techniques using GPS or some alternative method to do more than the “Look-See” method used now to see crews below. 7 unsuccessful drop passes? Even Hiroshima and Nagasaki we’re 1st attempt pinpoint targets WITHOUT GPS technology! Walkie-talkies and lookouts are the best we have after so many tragedies like this? I know that hindsight is 20/20 , but isn’t there any possible way to improve communications among these agencies and crews, for God’s sake? One phoscheck drop might have saved these guys or at least given them a fighting chance!
I've been a wildland firefighter for 13 yrs. In classroom studies in fatality fires they are near similar case studies.
So my thought after viewing this may be they were going to the ranch as a safety zone but got cut off and ended up deploying in that bowl. It's just my thought I have but who knows?. With some protection those rocks and boulders.
Only God knows what happened
I'm angry and baffled at how shit like this can happen...with modern gps and personal locator becons, like wtf! how can they not be found in time by an aircraft? We chuck millions of dollars into space programmes and into electric bullshit vehicles but cant adequately protect these guys!!! c'mon.
I'm pretty sure that there was one survivor.
The only survivor was the lookout who was not with the rest of his crew.
The irony is that there are fuel-free boulder fields less than 200 m away on both sides of the canyon. With rocks so huge you can get between and under them.
no....the boulders were all cracked from the over 3000 degree fire storm....the fire burned down on them with super headed gasses.... fire shield are resisted up to 300 degrees with the seems starting to separate at 500 degrees....the one at fault is Marsh....half of the crew were rookies....fire fighting 101...is to NEVER EVER leave the black to walk down into a box canyon with fire at the mouth....not keeping any eye on the fire....knowing that it had blasted though were doughnut was....very sad.....but it was extreme negligence...yarnell wasnt going to be protected and they had already deemed it a loss....marsh wasnt being a hot shot....he was being a hot dog!!!
@@sabinamclaughlin428 19:29 To the left of the frame is what I mean (area is larger than it looks from the camera point of view). The rocks are still tan colored and there are green plants among them. That entire ridge extending away from the camera is similar. Had they descended that route, they could have kept visual contact with the fire and had a ready -made natural shelter in the rocks. The terrain forther down the ridge looks even safer (rockier) as you go east.
I live near the area, one of these days I should hike that rock zone and just see what it was like. It would be tougher going than a flat trail, but would have offered shelter from the storm.
Papa Marsh was a brave, tough man who was also an incompetent Sup who killed his whole team with a couple of shitty and poorly-explained decisions at just the wrong time. Every one of those hotshots died like heroes, but only one of them died a failure. I'm sorry, but it's true. Stay safe.
What do you base this comment on?
JPF941 how they left the black and went into the green without a spotter
Possibly extreme weather conditions the night of discovery? Lacking resources to properly size up? Yada yada yada
Never heard of a city fire department maintaining a traveling, inter-agency forest/wildfire unit, responding to fires the city has no responsibility for. City fire responses are limited to structural fires. The motive had to be profit; Prescott could rent the team out to both State and Federal agencies for big bucks per incident.
I work as a career Firefighter/Paramedic and my department has a wildland program and send out 1-3 teams as needed and we backfill the spots, it's more common than you think.
No one knows unless they’ve done it, and I did. Hotshots as was the best fucking job I’ve ever had. I was Still In fire in 2013 but not a hotshot, cause I was older. That job s for the young, and then the beautiful young men got burnt up, and I have survivors remorse. It’s been 9 years, but still hard. I love you my brothers, i would say say safe,but none of us joined to stay safe. HAVE FUN !!! Is a much better option.
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I will never forget. That day our crew was there BLUE RIDGE HOTSHOTS MY SUPE BRIAN PICKED UP BRENDEN AN MOVED THERE BUGGIES WE ALL THOUGH THEY WERE IN A SAFETY ZONE UNTIL JESSE STEED BROKE IN ON THE COMS THERE IS A PICTURE OF HUDDLED AROUND LISTENING TO BRENDENS RADIO THEN WE GASED UP THE UTVS AND WENT IN NEVER FORGET GMH19 LINE OUT IN PEACE BROTHERS !
Granite mountain Hotshots...there it is.......there it is! Wanna puke that movie sucked so bad.
Hey let's get Jeff Bridges to sing ghost riders in the sky! Ummmm...how 'bout no?
And let's line dance to Copperhead road! Oh please....where's the bleach?
Nurse: Y'all heroes. Oh god!
Very sad, not too sure what 19 men could of done to prevent any of this, totally avoidable if they where trying to save the town Yarnell or the ranch, Sometimes you just have to back down and nature play it course, not right to die this way, especially with all the tech we have.
Marsh committed suicide and he took those brave souls with him
God bless there heart
Oh shut up
the news keeps say they were a obsolete crew, well if they were so obsolete why are they dead? for one they new there was a thunder storm approaching. So why did you go into the back country with a storm approaching? Hello out flow winds are ahead of a thunder storm. Why did you pull the dam crew out of the black and did not tell anyone? You went down hill where you could not see the fire? You had no safety zone once you left the black?
Your lookout was no good to you once you left the area! You did not keep in comm with other forces! Someone needs to be accounted for this, Why walk into a fire and take lunch?
Hello watching the column change should have told you there was a wind change! People getting killed over dam trees has to stop.
Thomas James Billman. "Someone needs to be accounted for this"? You're speaking of the 19 Hotshots and their actions?You don't think losing their lives was enough? Do you even know where this fire was, have you been there, lived there, know the terrain and how quickly the weather changes? Obviously not but I DID live there!
iam wild live fire fighter in PA