Another thing to note, the monsters don't bother remembering the human names and immortalizing despite them being doomed to die upon falling into the underground. Imagine how cruel it is when not one, even the kindest like Martlet, do not bother to remember those they sacrificed for their freedom. Clover learns all the humans have died from Flowey early one, but to not hear any of them utter their names, but know humans have died, I can see Clover taking it as the devalue of human life, and just imagine how further supplemented that is by being constantly attacked and fending for your life. The fact he went down their to get justice for the other fallen humans and then EXPERIENCING what they went through, fighting for their lives every waking moment? I'd understand becoming violently angry at that point alone from the perspective of someone who believes in justice, but then this is further supplemented by the fact Martlet calls humans who kill monsters "bad humans". Like.... Put that into perspective, you go and you can die just for walking down any sidewalk, from any random monster, and the idea you dare defend your life and take the life of another makes you one of the bad humans? Martlet, despite sparing you after killing a few people, still thinks you're in the WRONG, that YOU should be the one to spare THEM when can't walk through a SINGLE AREA without getting PROOF of what happened to all the other humans! I mean its no wonder she thought Clover killed her when Flowey stabbed her in the back, its exactly what most of the monsters would do if they could, its not like they all start a conversation first like Asgore before the fight starts, they let you take your turn, but even that seems to be a principle mechanic of the universe rather than their choice going by the genocide fight with Sans. Honestly I'm waiting for someone to do a skit where Clover tells Martlet all the reasons he's killing them all after Martlet realizes she can't win, and it just DESTROYS her morality and belief in her actions, imagine Clover telling her every last individual he killed tried to kill him first, and that she just defended the monsters who are all the type responsible for the five who died to begin with. Not ONE that you kill will spare YOU if you don't struggle to survive, (I think not even Martlet would've spared you), and the more logic you put to it, the worse it all gets, like the fact most monsters you don't kill probably assume you're a monster like Martlet originally did, and even the few who know you're a human and don't fight you like Mo admit to being openly willing to deal with an open homicidal felon. I'm gonna be frank, I'm shocked Clover didn't turn around after killing Asgore, and hunt down every single last monster in the underground so that any human who falls will no longer have to worry about being murdered.... Just slowly starving to death I guess, but I could see Clover trying to find a way to break the barrier from the outside, TBH.
I mostly agree But for the last point, I think Clover's best move post genocide would be to try to change things in the human world. We don't know if mount ebbot has any security beyond a legend that vaguely warns people to not go. But with Clover carrying the literal essence of five dead kids, they can prove to human society that mount ebbot at least needs to be barricaded. That would save both humans and non combatant monsters
Clover:🍀🔫💛 m.ruclips.net/video/I3MehWjLBz8/видео.html I would like to mention, though that it stated in the Snowden library that attack patterns are a method of communication meaning that they don’t necessarily realize they’re hurting Clover or Frisk but since nobody ever tells Clover that this is still stands
What amazes me the most is that Clover let Marlet go TWICE. Even trough she said that she is going to stop him he still let her go. And even at the very end when he faces Asgore he still lets him make the first Attack unlike chara who initiatet attack. Truly Clover never attacket first the only time he did was when starlo chalanged him to a dual but since poth paries wantet the dual there is also nothing wrong with that
Like... technically every monster attacks you first, its their fault if they end up dead And game doesnt show "But nobody game" sequence when location cleared because its not that there is nobody here anymore, but that everyone who is left is scared shitless to attack you
@@skell6134 FINALLY someone understands this. I actually got curious in one of my Neutral routes and tried to clear out a late area in the game and it took me _SO MUCH LONGER_ You have to kill much more than 20 monsters to get the 'X' bubble in every room. Unlike in Og Undertale the "But nobody came" appears not because everyone is dead, it appears because there is no one left to fight anymore.
this might be a small thing that probably doesnt mean anything, but i feel like frisk in no mercy actively looks out for monsters to kill, judging by how they smile in waterfall genocide, while clover still has the ! reaction bubble as if theyre surprised that another monster is pretty much ambushing them out of the blue not to mention considering the human faction, maybe clover was told before they ever set foot into the underground that monsters will trick and are ruthless, so why not reciprocate those feelings back. and well, they're not on the quest for power, its just every time they kill a monster, they distance themselves from monsters, bringing themselves more to hurt them, which is why they gained a ton of lv upon hearing axis' confession, due to them distancing themselves from axis so they can hurt axis greatly
Glad that I found this video, as I've been thinking about this topic this whole day. So... 1)Asgore is a coward, yes, but Ceroba also states that MONSTERS are simply not ready to wage another war(in her opinion), so they kinda have to prepare. That's why Alphys and Chujin were making robots, the latter being a genius who could have handed MONSTERS a way to win against humans(transformation of SOULS). Also, seven human SOULS can make a god,if I remember correctly. But in case this works only with flowey, it means that MONSTERS, after breaking the barrier, would be able to have 7 godlike brothers(Asriels first form is, in fact, a repeat of when he absorbed only one soul, Chara's). 2)Humans moved on after war. What I mean is the pacifist route of UT, in which MONSTERS, surprise-surprise, come to peace with HUMANS, meaning that really, it's the MONSTERS who want to continue the war, while HUMANS do not. 3)Royal guard is supposed to get human SOULS, not ordinary monsters. Also, if I'm not wrong, some battle quotes are changed in genocide, which point to the fact that monsters, are, in fact, kinda terrified of Clover,and yet they still keep coming. 4)Monsters shape the killer. You see, the LOVE growing points to how much someone is prone to violence. Not only that, creatures naturally gain experience(XP) on how to fight when they are constantly attacked. What I mean is that if monsters preferred not to attack, there would not even be a chance for someone to get strong and wipe out everyone they meet, because they would not be prone to doing it and would not have the strength to. 5)Why not try to let children enjoy their life in Underground at least somewhat until they peacefully die? 6)"Umm,actually Martlet also doesn't want us to die" 🤓. But really, she even sides with us when we kill Ceroba on the pacifist route, while North Star say that Clover is "lower than dirt" to him(i chose the "I'm sorry" option though, dunno if saying nothing changes his opinion). TL;DR HUMANS are not seeking war, while MONSTERS do, and in doing so, they force those who encounter them to become stronger and more violent, thus making even children killers.
Monsters believe humans are still against them because of Asriel being attacked, although Asgore is a bit of an unreliable narrator they have good reasons to be scared of them and want to attack (especially considering how much stronger humans are when they have intent to kill)
Monsters don't know what will happen on the surface and humans don't know what will happen if monsters break free. It is this mutual fear that puts the two sides at risk of destroying each other. This is honestly why a lot of wars happen in real life. If two groups can't trust each other they will often resort to attacking preemptively out of fear of worse violence later. What humans and monsters and the real world need is a little more trust in each other.
A point important is mounster need human souls for freedom, no body mounster what reallly killy you in a pacifist route (excet probably undyne, mettaton, flowey) only want your soul to break the barrier.
@@gabrielmbx9253Yes, but i really dont have any reason to help them either especially when they try to kill me so actively, no matter if they back off after awkward friendly conversation(they still come back to fight you again later smh)
@@skell6134 corrigo mi punto anterior, realmente los mountros (la mayoria) no buscan atacarye, solo no saben que eres humano, esto provoca que la magia que ellos provocan (que normalmente no daña aun mountro) dañe tu alma, esto lo sabemos ya que en undertale nos disen que los patrones de magia son una forma de socializar entre los mountros. Por lo que si estan intentandote matar, pero no es la intencion de la mayoria de mountros. Y a tu otropunto relamnete no te ataca el mismo mounstro son distintos solo que por ejemplo en una ruta genocida estos huyen al ver que sus compañeros mueren por lo que pareven que son mas pcos de los que realmente son. Y no se trata de perdonarlos si no de matarlos, por que no hay razon con suficiente peso para ello (con excepciones)
I know that's the thing that makes me kinda uncomfortable with this video. While I understand the creator isn't trying to send a broader political message it seems eerily similar to some propaganda in the real world
@@HumanOnEarth128 I use it as a vessel for political propaganda, because it shows how something that looks this bad can seem to have logical arguments backing it up, or even seem like it's for the greater good. Because irl, countries do justify their violence like that
I think that yellow undertale contrary to what undertale shows it tries to be more in mode nobody is right and nobody is wrong they all have each their reason to act.
The only one that isn't justifiable is Martlet, honestly. And even then, he lowers his weapon and gives her a genuine chance to flee and get out of there when shes hurt. The second time though, Clover really had no choice. Only one was leaving there alive.
1.Clover freakin SPARED martlet in snowdin 2.Then they did let her go in desert even though she said about her stopping them 3.Martlet died, trying to fight Clover, even though she could've jusf stayed out of this, but she just decided to die miserably
Also worth mentioning, that in UY canon, Melody (the Integrity soul girl, name is inspired by the team Undertale Integrity, who, seemingly, will create the next chapter of that lore, if all goes well) had gone in hiding for years, until the day she went to Snowdin, probably to get some scraps of food, encountered Kanako and Dalv, injured the latter and FLED, although we know that she could kill Dalv, and probably Kanako, there and then, and she would never flee if she was a genocidal one. For all we know, her death from Axis' hands could happen as a result of a pacifist run, wherein she had to live her last years in caves, as a savage hermit, always in hiding and on the run, so that the Royal Guard could not spot her, fighting her way out on the occasion of being spotted, because as long as injured monsters are not willing to chase her and prevent her from fleeing, she absolutely could fight and remain a pacifist.
This is a very complicated conversion topic to debate, I mean, both parties have their reasons and are justified in what they do: Asgore is the king of the monsters and has to look after the good of all of them and maintain everyone's hope after the humans locked up his entire race and killed his son, Asgore has every reason to kill humans and have his souls (although killing children is already questionable). Clover is a child who goes in search of the missing children but upon learning that they died at the hands of Asgore, he begins a genocide to wipe out the monsters to avenge the fallen humans. Clover has every reason to kill monsters (although killing an entire race for the actions of a few is questionable). What I see here are the representatives of two races that look after the well-being of their own race, I mean, why do monsters have to worry about humans (the race that condemned them to despair)? Or why does Clover have to worry about monsters (the same ones who are trying to kill him and who have already killed other children)? This is why I love Undertale so much, everything is done in grayscale.
What you undertale/ undertale yellow fans fail to understand is "The Lore" Clearly clover or even frisk do not wipe out a whole race, they only murder a small portion of the race
@@jevilsugoma1743 EXACTLY!! and even then, while frisk attacks EVERY monster they meet out of morbid curiosity, clover actually only attacks those that attack them. it's absolutely justified, imo, these guys are basically actually terrorizing children.
@@getleeshyyd Although I agree that Frisk chooses to attack the monsters in the genocide route, HOWEVER we have no proof that *they* do it out of curiosity, it's the player that makes them do it, but guys like me or ultimate_capper try to ignore that a *player* exists as we want to have a actual discussion.
@@getleeshyydexcept frisk in genocide is a monster You might be able to argue that they were defending themselves but they also have the ability to load saves and they already know they do before they encounter their first enemy Even if they were defending themselves at first that would be the neutral route In genocide you have to go out of your way to get them to confront you so you can kill them instead of just continuing along the path and fighting ones that encounter you along the way And you smile about it too It's even worse when you do betrayal kills if you count those People like papyrus sans calls you out on in neutral routes because papyrus never is trying to kill you and even if you get him low he will concede the fight and stop fighting you if I recall meaning you have to go out of your way to go ahead and kill him In neutral and Pacifist if he wins he lets you go rest In genocide he straight up refuses to fight and tried to get you to stop doing what your doing and you just murk him because he's in the way Frisk states that monster kid a character who tries to bond with you even in genocide is in his way and checking him you demean him And you attempt to kill him simply because he wanted you to stop Sans is completely justified in his hatred of you with the fact you can play with them like gods and you chose to do that with your power Likely some monsters have love if theyve killed humans or bad monsters and asgore definitely has a lot But you have even more you don't even do it because you hate monsters you just thinks it's fun and you want more power Undyne and mettaton even theorize that you probably wanna kill the humans too *which is true I'll get back to that* You are treated as not human nor monster on genocide you become a cruel being that a human or monster simply cannot fathom or define Papyrus thinks you aren't a human at first and asgore doesn't even know what kind of monster you are completely unable to tell your human despite seeing many Ontop of all of this You kill asgore when he doesn't wanna fight you and flower just because you are mad at him for attacking you at the start even though he's helped you ever since Even Chara scolds you if you keep doing genocides or if you wanna reset the world Speaking of When you destroy that world you are effectively destroying all of it including the universe So all monsters you didnt kill are dead All humans are dead All animals All trees If aliens exist there dead too The entirety of life destroyed Rather you choose to or don't you are still indirectly responsible Genocide frisk is a jerk Genocide clover has a reason to be upset and defend himself Genocide frisk literally is just bored and wants to have fun And if you wanna add the player into it you are the one killing everything not frisk with that interpretation meaning you as the player are the jerk
This makes sense, actually! I agree. Those are really good points which are pretty fairly used, and actually justify Clover's actions. In Undertale, it is said that some monsters are hiding rather than being killed by Frisk, so not all of them died. Clover is only attacking the monsters that are attacking him, just like Frisk.
Frisk is different from Clover. The game makes very clear they only do what they do out of malicious curiosity and even hurt people who dont want to hurt them like Papyrus or MK. The equivalent to Clover genocide in Undertale would probably be some kind of neutral where you kill almost everyone but Papyrus.
@@flameofvictory4305 ^ ALSO true. idk why i never commented this actually but literally, the last sentence is not accurate. clover still did it because they thought it was the right thing and the monsters were bad guys, as opposed to frisk, who did it for the sake of curiousity (i mean, i wouldn't actively seek out monsters if i was an angry murderous clover, just a no mercy neutral).
For me the best way to truly understand UTY's genocide route is to stop seeing it from our prespective(as a player) and seeing it as a person in-universe, no outside knowledge of the underground or even about monsters at all. Imagine you just learn that there is this hidden race of Monsters that once were at war against humanity and even though they lost they apparently had killed 5 children that just randomly stumbled upon their sealed prison. The first though would logically be a bad one, "monsters?", "killing children?", "were once at war?!", of course they might be seen as evil, and clover, atleast in genocide, could've reacted that way, he wants justice for what they did, it's in our own human nature to act like that. We seek a reasonable action and well, Clover, despite murdering a lot of innocent monsters, acts very reasonable to me. In the terms of someone who actively seeks justice
Except he hypocritically fails to account for the acts of the humans and why the monsters might be this way Which is why on Pacifist he is willing to let asgore get away with it and give him his soul for the benefit of monster kind who have been done unjustly by humans He is seeking out justice for his young friends but is also fishing out unjustness by killing the monsters that could never dream to hurt him especially since some monsters give up fighting after getting damaged enough
@@dillonpeterson66 fair enough Although clover being a child doesn't make it more justified considering the abilities of clover and frisk in either route They are powerful
@gabrielchastain6091 I'd also like to point out the actions of humans from back in the war is irrelevant considering that was presumably hundreds of years ago and these are kids who probably weren't even an idea yet.
At first it's vengeance, but that LV corrupts Clover to the point that he can Cheat a Dual and in order to finish Genocide you have to kill robots. Soulless machines, that don't even give you XP (Head-canon, Clover hates ChatGPT, so they take it out on Steamworks robots), so, I would say that when Flowey says "..." as his save point dialogue, that's where you can't justify it anymore.
You can win the dual without cheating (waiting for a bell is not an actual duel thing, it's fair as long as you take the paces and face your opponent; at that point, it's just who can draw and shoot faster). Also, Clover destroying the bots isn't really a problem. The ones Clover kills attack him first, so the explanation of Clover taking out anything hostile still works. In fact, them not technically being alive and giving no EXP can actually support Clover's justification. Clover isn't just a bloodthirsty maniac who wants to destroy life, or just trying to gain more power. He's once again just taking out anything that poses a threat to humans.
@@JezElectro13 I am pretty sure you are the same guy who tried to defend Asgore. So I will debunk that first. So, you basically think that because Asgore does not know that humans who fall down are kids, it's somehow justified for him to kill them and how he has a reason. According to your logic Hitler is justified in what he did because he also had a reason.
In defense of Asgore, he regrets killing these children (also, it's not his fault only Children fall down), declared war because of rage of losing two children himself (and to give his people hope), and he doesn't really want to fight (He breaks your mercy button, so that you won't spare him, as he thinks he doesn't deserve mercy). Also, taking one SOUL, crossing the barrier, and taking the remaining SOULs would be even worse, because the moment everyone will be free, the war would happen again, and it could result in loosing everything essencially INSTANTLY after regaining it again, and even more. (Also, I don't think negotiating about taking SOULs is a good idea, it's like negotiating with someone about their death). And from what we know, it was Humans who began the war, because of fear of Monsters' power to absorb a human soul.
Thing I don't understand is; Human Souls persist AFTER death, so, whose saying that he couldn't just go in the dead of night to a couple of graveyards and grave-rob human souls. I know it sounds ridiculous, but it could, in theory, work.
@@voidensvoid While i bet they persist for awhile upon death, i imagine that human souls eventually shatter because of the game over screen in Undertale and the need to preserve the souls within containers
@@sypenn2502I don't think so, in all honesty. SOULs are pretty much the life essence of you, the culmination of your being, as flowey says. It's scientifically known that energy cannot be created or destroyed. And I'm not sure how much logic can apply to here considering magic and all that, But I disagree about the whole jar thing. Theyre sentient as shown in undertale, uty, deltarune, etc. also, in the true lab it says they persist because of their determination. Which is just in their SOULs. But yeah, I feel there's a lot of missing information.
Let's just pay attention to the fact that we do not kill those who did not attack us. Here comes a monster and doesn’t attack us, and we don’t attack them either! Even with Mo in Steamworks, there is no function "shoot him down", уou can only rob him.
They used to be but after Undertale's Pacifist ending, they make peace with humanity. Humans already moved on after the war, while Underground wanted to continue the war before they were freed.
Does war justify everything? There are no battles or soldiers Clover fights these are all random battles with civilians whom Clover appears to be picking fights with. Testing them is a sick way to justify their deaths.
@@HumanOnEarth128 The monsters attack Clover because Asgore ordered that all humans are to be destroyed. If you fight in a war, you're a combatant: a legitimate target.
@@danlomanalo4161 technically the war existed even before that, monsters wouldn't be trapped underground otherwise. 🤓☝ i see what you mean tho. but also, from outsider perspective, asriel looked like a freaky eldritch being, and i'm sure they thought he killed chara. just like how clover thinks THEY were justified in killing all monsters who attacked them, asriel's killers think they were justified because they thought asriel killed chara, even though this wasn't true. totally different contexts, but same line of thinking.
What I think about geno Clover is that geno frisk is pure evil but geno Clover thinks its the right thing since asgore killed 5 innocent children sooo that's what I think
I respect the approach, but here is mine: Although I think it's mostly right to go for this route because of the it's own "justice" it has and I also do agree on some points of your explanation, we always get the first attack/act (mostly, sometimes genocide bosses can attack first) and even tho the text mostly says that the monster got close and they started the fight, we always get to hit no matter what (if we dont miss with our own skill), while the monsters don't attack the soul directly they just make patterns that we can avoid mostly (not counting bosses since they attack us for a reason and are mone unfair) so overwall, I believe that the enemies aren't really enemies because of this, and of course, they become NPCs when we spare them
There are multiple different ones, why do you think there are, for example, two dunebuds in the same fight, or if you kill them in geno why do they keep coming back, also there is a kill count so yeah... @@h5ypr
I get where you're coming from, but we need to look at the bigger picture. I, also don't believe that clover's actions are 100% justified in the genocide route. However, I also believe that Clover giving up their soul isn't really the correct option either. Clover ending their life for monster kind is basically just giving the monsters more reason to keep trying, basically hoping that with your sacrifice, the next human will die, which will ultimately lead to another war between the species. You can argue that Clover willingly gave up their soul for monster kind, which is technically true, but if you look at it through the player's perspective, it's not really a choice when you're only given one option. All in all, I can find flaws in every ending, I just don't think the game should punish you by going out of your way and aiding people who have backstabbed you before (Starlo, Ceroba). The genocide route can be considered an act of desperation after clover sees that they can't escape their death through peaceful means, so they do all they can to escape their tomb.
@@flameofvictory4305 nuh uh, Martlet forces you into the fight, legit the only way to not kill the monsters is trying to talk out of it, or doing some actions, while they're still trying to kill you
BRO THAT'S SO BASED. I've been smacking my head against the wall trying to convey this point to the UT community , but monsters ain't sweet loving babus who deserves endless hugs and endless patience from humans. In the original UT it's mentioned countless times that Asgore's plan is not to simply "free his kind", no, this dude want to inflict genocide upon human, who has no responsibility for the war, cuz it happens like 100s of years ago. So that's why Clover giving up their soul is such a shit ending. The narrative manipulates a child to end their life to essentially build a weapon of mass genocide of their own kind. And it's CANON. A lot of people don't like to think about this, but we only have pacifist ending in the original UT because Frisk was lucky enough to be the 7th. If they fell anywhere between - there would be no pacifist ending. "The best ending" is built on 6 dead children before us, and while I believe it's implied that the humans were resurrected (the coffins are opened, and Asriel was able to resurrect every monster he killed (yes, he killed everyone be absorbing their souls), they still went through hell. Like the only reason Flowey exists is because the souls were experimented on. And I doubt that anybody asked for content). Genocide ending was SO SATYSFYING. FINALLY we can see Asgore's ass getting hadoukened.
This. A lot of UT fans forget sins of the monsters, because of course they're much more peaceful and better than humans. Me: that spongebob meme where he shows a lot of garbage on different frames 1. 6 murdered children 2. experimentation on said children 3. questionable fights with any human/-one who passes monsters 4. declaring of war because of obvious fuck up from children of king, and then them dying to cave man who fear what they don't know. considering how old king is, he should know it should've been expected, considering again they were sealed for multiple generations 5. No, it's humanity's fault, also want to get out of underground, so double win 6. One good thing is Asgore wasn't propagating human murder so much. Monsters just fight anyway, they don't even know we're human in canon. And that's one of the things that is wrong in UT Yellow. In original, noone except guards really cared about capturing us.
I'm pretty sure Asgore didn't actually want to carry out his plan to destroy humanity. In undertale, he even begs you to kill him and even kills himself in one ending
Now this is the nuanced take I was hoping to find. It's hard to say "it's just one/a few XYZ" when the better part of a small country is participating in the attempted murder, regardless if their attempts are all that effective. I'm sorry but let's be real here, just because someone shot the wall next to you, doesn't mean the next one is necessarily going to miss too. We don't treat "warning shots" as permissable behavior when defending yourself for the same reason, there's still an active threat in that shot no reasonable context can excuse. OG UT missed a trick here, and it's awesome to see Yellow pick up on the nuance OG failed to deliver.
as much as i like that "clover's method" theory it is a bit flawed tho cuz in the part were you dual with starlo if you didnt click fast enough starlo actully just shoot you with a rubber bullet but then clover just kill him non the less and dont forget were clover chase axis even tho he was not attacking
few things to remember: Asgore IS a coward. he declared war on humanity again because he was upset his children were killed, and by the time he realized another war would result in his people dying, everyone had already been so full of nationalist sentiment for their success that it would have gotten rid of any hope they had to tell them the truth. also, we know some details about the war. according to the signs in waterfall, humans declared war because they were fearful of the monsters power to absorb human souls. since human souls were so powerful, hundreds of monsters died and not a single human died. (it’s worth noting this is from the monsters themselves, so this may be biased.) final point: it’s stated monsters will sometimes use magic as a form of saying hi, and they don’t know better. however, this version of the genocide route is supposed to be seen as more justified because clover is the justice soul, and in this route, they’re bringing justice to his enemies by swearing to have vengeance. it’s also why in the pacifist route, clover willingly gives up their soul, because in that route they’ve seen how monsters were unfairly locked away. anyways, thanks for reading my rant, and i like how this game is being interpreted by so many people. i agree with you that the genocide route here can be defended, because clover is the justice soul, and this is a form of justice, albeit a twisted form.
Interesting video. Though there was literally no reason for Clover to attack Martlet 4 times after she wanted to help him. Even more so if he apologizes then proceeds to blast. She even asked what his name was and tried comforting him, thinking that he was lashing out because they were in a dangerous situation.
Because Martlet was a Royal Guard and they had mistaken Clover for another monster. It can be assumed that Clover simply thought that once Martlet would find out they were a human, she would immediately attack them, which is a pretty plausible assumption to make considering literally almost every monster clover has met this far wanted them dead. Clover decided it would be better to simply fight martlet right now instead of later on. Another theory could be that Clover was just anxious that everything was a trap, which is also perfectly plausible.
and another thing: clover doesnt even take out most of the underground as clover only explores (what we know of as) half of the underground no matter what route you go, waterfall and hotland are completely unaffected, they only take out the ones that attack them first which is why you can spare dalv but still be on geno if you continue in snowdin since dalv only attacks out of desperation and clover seemingly knows this which is why you can spare dalv but still do geno
Something the route also has is that it doesn't "force" us the way the other endings do. Neutral forces us to both confront Martlet and accept her offer, regardless of how we interacted with her before rather than proceeding to Asgore. Flawed pacifist forces an unavoidable death via undodgable attacks with no chance to fight back. Pacifist forces a self-sacrifice which won't even have immediate gain, for people we barely just met.
your point about clover not having been able to save if not for flowey made me realize, i love how the tradition of asriel helping out the human is carried over in this game, even if in a more twisted way In undertale he took in chara, in deltarune its ralsei who aids kris to every inch of their being, and here its flowey "helping" clover survive
Have monsters been extremely cruel in their approach to gaining freedom? Sure, you make a good case for that. Does that mean Clover ought to wipe out large swathes of them? No, that's still horribly misguided. The monsters are going to break the barrier eventually. Losing their king and the 5 souls is a setback, but someone else will rise to power, likely someone orders of magnitude more ruthless than ASGORE. That new ruler may even employ the strategy that ASGORE was too cowardly to take: using one soul to cross the barrier and taking 6 more from the surface. Then the war between humans and monsters will reignite, inevitably resulting in massive casualties, possibly even the extinction of the human race. This is all pretty easy to infer. ASGORE even says as much at the end of Genocide: "Many more, of both our kinds, will perish because of this day." Short of wiping out the *entire* underground, Clover cannot possibly put a complete stop to monsters' quest for revenge. So comparing the Pacifist route to the Genocide route again, we see: - one route that will turn monsters even further against humans, making their eventual redeclaration of war even more bloody - one route that, at the very least, improves many monsters' opinion of humanity, increasing the likelihood that monsters will decide to be peaceful when they go free How is the latter not clearly better than the former? (I appreciate the video, by the way, as much as I disagree with the conclusion. It certainly gives food for thought; I hadn't ever considered the angle that Clover may be testing monsters to see if they'll attack first.)
It doesn't matter how some monsters thiink of you, at the end Asgore's goal is the same: genocide upon humanity. If Frisk wasn';t able to reset and shape the world as they want, Clover's and other human's deaths would be steps to mass genocide of human kind. So in this situation Clover has 2 choices: die and let this crazy asshole wipe out his kind or kill everyone who attacks them while leaving peaceful monsters live to gain enough power to kill this piece of sheesh and let the souls free. And the last one is CLEARLY better.
They can’t really get much crueler in their attempts to be free as actively murdering innocents. If anything they massively stand to become less cruel. The kids that end up trapped in the underground could just be taken care of just with a monster always close by to collect their soul when they die of natural causes. Toriel is the most likely inheritor to the throne at least initially and while there is a chance of revolt it’s worth noting that clover doesn’t really get as ruthless as frisk can at their most violent. Clover’s still less violet on “genocide” then frisk is on those runs where you kill everyone but toriel and the monsters revolt. Like killing papayrus when he really doesn’t mean harm to anyone Is a big step up from anything clover does especially when considering how his level may screw with his judgment in later choices. Notably asgore and non boss monsters being dead alone isn’t nearly enough to sway the public against humans enough that toriel can’t stop it in the neutral endings. Getting toriel on the throne drastically improves the situation and while she can’t see the nuance that yeah sometimes humans can be bad too protect all humans is better then kill all humans. Genocide here may turn out similarly to a just asgore and some non boss monster kill neutral run in undertale and those are relatively good endings and toriel in charge Is very much an ideal setup for the future when only considering what clover would know.
@@ryzhik9608 Asgore doesn’t speak for thousands of monsters. Also he’s trying to retaliate against the humans who locked monsterkind in a prison, kind of like that self defense you love preaching
@@reinaintherain Monsters who attack us speak for themselves, and so does the captain of the Royal Guard and monsters in New Home. Also catty and bratty. Like, it's not EVERYONE, but it's plenty. So Asgore is trying to "defend themself" from humans... 100s of years after when none of those who locked them up is alive. Menwhile I say Clover is defending themselves against monsters who are literally ATTACKING RIGHT NOW Nice self-defence, go think of a better defence
@@ryzhik9608 Ok, but it's still well justified to be afraid of humans who locked you in a prison. Clover has save points and can just not go out of their way to kill monsters or spare them on low hp, thinking they are 100% justified in their slaughter is frankly disturbing
FR! everyone thought justice doing geno was canon before uty came out (now it's integrity, which ig integrity souls can be 'corrupt' like how justice souls can, but still, don't gotta shit talk my ballerina homie like dat). and i love uty, it did some things way better than og ut, but true pacifist sucks ass!! true pacifist should've just ended the same as alt pacifist, with the exception of ceroba being dead ofc. ((my personal headcanon for that is that clover felt some sense of deja vu [in terms of flowey constantly resetting because they were no longer progressing any further] or felt there was no point in living further on in a life of secrecy-it's implied clover didn't have a nice life on the surface, so they didn't feel inclined to go back up there, and were thinking more so of their friends than asgore when sacrificing themself.))
It's a complicated matter. On one side the monsters attack humans out of fear, because they were always told that humans are this evil creatures who trapped them underground forever. So of course when they see a human they're gonna react irrationally and attack at first sight. But killing those 5 children doesn't justify their fear at all, even if they needed the souls to destory the barrier. On the other side clover attacking out of self-defense is justified because the monsters attack them first and try to kill clover at every single encounter and at the same time clover wants to bring justice to the children who were ruthlessly killed. But then you have to consider that clover intentionally fell inside the underground so they knew what they were getting into, and killing monsters will just make their fear for humans even worse so you can't blame them for attacking clover there. Also thanks to flowey, clover here is basically immortal so even if they die they can come back and end battles peacefully instead, so there's no reason to kill monsters. So yeah both sides (humans and monsters) are just trying to protect they're own people, but that doesn't mean they're justified for their bad actions. Vengeance is not justice.
Even though Clover shares no bond with the First Human, do think WE are still at fault for their actions? i.e. No mercy run, I mean when you really think about neither we nor Clover reset, Flowey does and is in control the whole time that is until Clover reaches LOVE 20. Could you let me know what you think? Anyone can say something here if you see this comment.
Although I can see where your approach comes from, and I saw where clovers reasoning came from while playing the game. I not only disagree with nearly all the points you made but go as far as to point at that this way of thinking is harmful. Point number 1) "Asgore is a bad person, the monsters support Asgore, therefore clover is justified to kill all monsters". the monsters have been imprisoned and were in a state of desolation for generations. it is common to see one's morality shift during these times especially when one promises clarity and freedom at the cost immoral actions. Let's take HAMAS'es rise to power for example. The Palestinians were mostly in favour of the group. and played a big role in the group winning the elections and eventually become the megalomaniac terroristic group we know of today. But why did they vote for him in the first place? it was due to the prolonged suffering and the incapacity of previous leaders to solve the issues, making their minds dwell and be more susceptible to violence and radicalism. When a group arises and promises freedom at the times of persecution, everyone will be siding with them no matter how evil their actions get. The Germans supported Hitler, so is every German needs to be killed? the Palestinians voted for Hamas, so every Palestinian needs to be bombed? NO, THEY DO NOT, most of these people are politicly inactive people who are easy to move around like cattle, especially during times like this. The only ones to blames are the Leaders and their close workers. Not the average rando who is in Favor of them over other potential. candidates. Let's not forget that Asgore himself arrived at this terrible philosophy after going through a whole war, losing, getting trapped, seeing hope with adopting Chara, only for both Chara and His son Asriel brutally dying due a misunderstanding between them and Humans and having his wife leave him. So, if you claim Ceroba is worthy of mercy due to her traumatic past leading her to believe that killing and experimenting with the corpse of a child was the only way she could be happy (while making huge mistakes and not following directions of Chujin which led to the whole Kanako ordeal in the first place) then a similar pardon could be done for Asgore... to some extent. You state that Asgore deliberately waits for children to fall down but this is very disingenuous as the only people who fall down are children. you are framing this as if adults had also fallen but were spared or something. "What do they expect to gain after the barrier is broken"? although the manner in which they have arrived in this ultimate situation was done through immoral means. It is still possible for both humans and monsters to arrive in some sort of peace treaty, despite the terrible things both sides have done. We can see this being the case in UNDERTALEs True Pacifist ending, in which monster kind successfully integrates with humans. "We dont know who started it and why" it doesn't necessarily matter who started this war. Wars in general are misunderstandings over a long period of time cultivating into hate and eventually violence. also, by Chujins descriptions regarding the stories of the veterans, the humans were rather incredibly merciless during their battle and humans before clover have arrived to do similar massacres but ultimately failed." Point Number 2) "monster inherently want to kill clover giving clover full right to commit a genocide" (sorry for the potential strawman) I may be straw manning you on this, but this fits perfectly with my previous point it is a fact that the monsters are led to believe that all humans who enter must die. Mainly due to Asgores policies and beliefs, we know this to be Asgores beliefs as nearly all the robots present within the Steamworks are coded to target humans, and we know that the robots are presented to Asgore before they are implemented within the facility. So, when a monster sees a human, regardless of their previous actions, they will see the human as a potential threat as they are led to believe through generations of stories, tales and even eyewitness testimonies. We know from martlets testimony that monsters are informed from their childhood that humans cannot be trusted and must be killed. now instead of confirming their beliefs, wouldn't it make more sense to shatter those beliefs trough actions of kindness? Plus, I would like to add that YOU are given the first turn in a battle, not the monsters so your analogy of trying to make peace with someone attacking you is wrong. you portray it as they attack you first then you try to tell them to stop. but that's not exactly what happens. they approach you with the intention of killing but dont actually start until you either try to make peace with them, fight them or run away. And when you are the first one to act and try to make peace. They take it into consideration. even altering some of their attacks and having dialogue to accompany it, eventually sparing you. Now I am not saying that replying to their approach with fighting is immoral. Yes. it is not immoral as it would fall under self-defence. But seeking to find each individual who didn't even approach you. YOU approached THEM is where the problem lies. the excuse that "they would have approached you first and tried to kill you" is not necessarily a valid response. Point number 3) Clover had to have killed every monster so he could overpower Asgore and punish him for his crimes. Now this sounds pretty fair on paper. but falls apart once examined. saying that clover had to have killed every monster to be on par with Asgore is a very big stretch in logic. The assumption that clover needs to be level 20 to kill Asgore doesn't make sense. as when clover is level 12 Flowey already comments how you are already powerful enough and dont need to go any further. so, clover could have only killed the monsters that tried to approach him to use their XP to beat Asgore. Also, if that was clovers intention. he would have denied living with martlet on the UG apartments rooftop and progressed to Asgore. "Clover only tries to kill enemies that attack them" is the point you made. yet you contradict yourself as you tried justifying clovers attempt to find and kill each monster that could POTENTIALLY approach clover. and the claim that Clover let MO and Marlet and Bunny go is another contradiction. Clover initiates the battle with Marlet when you first encounter her and at that point, she has no motivation to harm you. When you see her again in the dunes Clover pulls out his gun but is only stopped because Martlet tries to talk to him not to do it. Again, clover initiates on someone who doesn't want to kill them yet. And at the very end even Tho at this point martlet genially wants to kill clover it is still clover who instantly pulls out their gun and enters a battle with her. Also clearing out monsters that are ultimately dangerous falls apart as we see in Undertale, their aggressive mentality falls when they are finally able to leave and integrate within human life. And it is safe to assume that monsters in both Undertale and Undertale yellow have similar mindsets. The only counter argument to this is that Flowey would be able to become God due to clover killing Asgore but not Flowey. This may very well completely destroy my argument, but this is only an assumption. If level 1 frisk can kill a 6-soul Flowey it is possible that a level 12 clovers could maybe defeat a 5-soul Flowey "Flowey can just alter saves and stuff and win guarantee" well Flowey does the same with frisk and intentionally reloads the save to mess with them making Flowey lose in the long run, so not entirely. Clover at the start of the genocide route may have been not truly evil, but we can see his judgement get more and more skewed towards the end of the game. Point Number 4) "this ending is better when compared to other endings". Let's ignore flawed pacifist and Neutral here and they are not relevant to this convo. "A child may have to end their life for a cause that may not work out." Fair... but we all make sacrifices like that. saying that everyone else dying means you surviving means its good is just very selfish. Also, clover does this willingly. He is still presented with the choice to keep himself alive by hiding. "We dont exactly know the actions of frisk" that is also a valid argument, but we can completely rule out genocide here as at the end of pacifist we see that your soul is being called upon. meaning either neutral or True pacifist. But you can't base a decision due to the uncertainty of the future. Clover himself acknowledges that his effort may be in vain, but he feels pride in the fact that he MAY have contributed to eventual peace. Also, frisk can just replay the game over and over until a true pacifist is reached. as Flowey nags to player towards that route after the end of each neutral route. Welp that's all I have got to say... The most reasonable point you got is point 4 but I dont think it's enough to justify the WHOLE route. I also would like to add the fact that it is a child who tasks himself to fulfil their purpose and that purpose isn't fully established at the start as we can see his ultimate objective be altered throughout the course of the pacifist route. Please be calm and collective in my replies ♥♥♥ Peace!
I think your first point is really important. While this is ultimately just a video about a silly video game the subtext of these justifications is similar to the logic used to justify numerous real-world atrocities and we need to be aware of the consequences of this thinking.
Interesting comment also very long but was worth reading the thing i most question here is that is wrong clover seeking for monsters to kill i feel like clover is justified to do that since these monsters are evil if clovers gives them the chance they will atack him and its not only potentially THEY WILL ATACK HIM 100 of 100 sure of it if he just skips his turn they will try to kill him he might have the first turn but that doesnt change that these monsters have the intend to kill him if giving the chance whatever they do atack or spare or flee they will try to kill him and clover doesnt need to have infinite pacience when his in risk of getting killed and if it wasnt per flowey he would die forever so the monsters are trying to commit murder to a child and clover is doing justice these monsters are a danger that could have killed humans that had fallen before him and now they trying to kill him is understable clover is mad about this and wants to seek revenge every time a monster approaches him trying to kill them it only shows this even more about monsterkind they are fully willing to kill a innocent child they dont care if you are completely pacifist what i mean is that this monsters are all wrong and so clover is justified to seek for them these monsters all are trying to kill him the moment you approach them maybe you approached them but the ones that was willing to kill a child was them maybe you also wanna kill them but is justified because they do too and would kill a innocent child too not only you. well also separated point would be the justifycation of clover for seeking the true not only asgore did horrible things Axis too Axis brutally killed a child if you see use the tape behind the tree you will realize and the way it talks about what Axis did just shows that he had absolutely no mercy he even tried to hide the proof of what he did to the blue soul and also the blue soul human did nothing wrong NOTHING it wasnt justified dalv atacked the blue soul first and the blue soul answered defending him self hitting him and then escaping just to be found by Axis and brutally blasted his face off like literally destroyed his head a child killed like that by Axis a creation of monsterkind that is a crime and clover must make them pay for what they did they are responsible
@@Afurrythatwilldrinkyourblood. clover is aware that flower prevents him from dying. So he has no real reason to kill the monsters as he knows that he can try again and again until he reaches the best conclusion. Axis is programmed to murder and is not capable of showing mercy so yes killing axis is justified. But the option to drain his power and de-activate him still stands. Dalv does try to kill the blue soul and the blue soul acts in self defense but DOESNT KILL dalv. Meaning defending yourself while shoving mercy is still possible
In other words clover is right in the pacifist route but not wrong in the genocide route. There's a question of if power obligates mercy even at the cost of sacrifice. Such a notion is morally disgusting. Dresden was justified.
Considering the fact that there was no way out of the underground without fusion of a human with a monster soul or vise versa, and the fact that the battling could be avoided entirely, except the case of Chara reaching lvl 20, wherein they get the ability to initiate the encounter by themselves, something that even Clover could not (and that is also part of a reason why he let Asgore to brandish his weapon before taking Soul out to fire), monsters could've simply played it long, let the humans live underground and pass on peacefully, conserve their bodies, break the barrier, get out, give those 7 proper burial and gratitude, and on that ground try to work things out with the human race. They have chosen violence, destruction and death, and in every genocidal timeline they get exactly what they bargained for.
Yes and no From a normal standpoint Monsters even in undertale have a bad habit of jumping you even if they seem oblivious to what they are doing they are chaotic and only toriel and papyrus will let you go if they hurt you too much Other monsters will go ahead and kill you So its kinda on then for attacking him first and why he adopts the view that they are all just like asgore or that they all have killed some of the kids But also no Because humans did start the conflict in the war They were terrified because monsters were a threat to them even though they used to get along and they genocided them and locked the survivors underground for eternity never to see the beautiful sun again We know asgore wasnt pure evil back in the day as he and toriel even let a human into their underground family and even other monsters tell it like a tale like they were one of them Asgore began his quest after the humans killed both his human kid and his biological kid for literally no reason because they were being racist and immediately thought asriel carrying the humans body meant he had killed them and didnt even give him time to explain he probably tried too but they refused to listen because they feared monsters They have been underground for so long they have become willing to kill anyone who comes down there so they can just get out before they eventually run outta stuff and die or go mad You might say But there children! Well its very likely the humans also murdered their children for literally no reason even in real life humans have been shown capable of massacring families including the kids in wars just because there dick's their own race! They would have no objection to exterminating them saying its for the best to justify it Everytime a human has fallen it's been a kid are the monsters just supposed to go Thats ok! Ill just wait another century or so or possibly an eternity and hope to god we get lucky enough for 6 human adults *who arnt as stupid* to conveniently fall in the hole* The only one at complete blame is asgore The other monsters did not know how he only needed one Asgore just told them he needed 7 The monsters were treated far worse like animals and were even at a disadvantage like the American army vs the natural natuves of america in power and numbers The monsters were just fucked by life You cant be too mad at the monsters for snapping and not caring anymore when the humans refused to show them the same compassion and the chances of getting 7 adult human souls is just astronomically low Clover is justified in defending himself though and he has no reason not to adopt the view that they are all guilty when they all are attacking him and treating him bad when they attacked first in most of the cases So yes and no
Yeah, it indeed seems like in most routes Clover really just wants to live with Toriel or Marlet and that it is only Flowey and the Player pushing Clover that causes them to take more violent paths.
i'm pretty sure its not the player pushing clover to do the more violent path its more him doing what he think is right serving justice thats why he leveled up when axis told clover he killed a human @@HumanOnEarth128
This is a very intriguing video. I fully intend on making a response video to this explaining why I disagree with a lot of your points here Gay Walter White & why I think that Clover is still guilty.
@@Idazmi7 nope, Clover goes to Asgore after sparing Ceroba. Like, instead of Ceroba it's Asgore taking Clover's soul. But the things play out the same, Clover gives the hat and gun to his friends, but he goes to Asgore to end the journey. Feels more honest (a bit more hurtful to Clover though) that Asgore takes the soul imo
@@Idazmi7 Thanks, but fighting Asgore would a bit controversial on what Clover wanted to do for the monsters. But I would like to think too that Clover wanted to find another solution instead of giving up, but Asgore clearly doesn't want to listen to Clover, but surely feeling really guilty of killing an innocent child
Undertale yellow genocide is significantly different even if it’s the same, the YOU in undertale didn’t really have a reason apart from an undeniable sensation and curiosity for what your into which makes your actions worse, where as clover went into this as the executioner and deeming monsters guilty and martlet challenges clovers true motives. Finding any reason to justify his killing which is disgusting though only a bit better than frisk
My Response to this video: Humans literally started the war out of fear despite there not being any cases of monsters killing humans for their souls beforehand. (If there was a case of a monster killing Humans for their soul power, then that Monster most likely would have easily been able to become a god because Asriel with only one human soul is described to have been able wipe out all of the humans that were attacking them in the village with ease.) A huge amount of the monster population was killed in the war. And Asriel was killed purely out of fear despite him being passive. I think its fair for monsters to be kind of hateful towards humans for all of these things because humans put them all through hell because of their own fear rather than any actual solid reasons. (Source: Waterfall Glyphs and the monsters that describe Asriel and Chara's backstory during the end of UT) Monsters souls are canonically made of love (source: UT Snowdin Library and also Flowey's entire backstory). None of them are really naturally evil and can be pretty easily reasoned with and spared in a battle except for some bosses. Clover also has literal time travel on their side and can retry battles as much as they need to in order to solve everything peacefully. The fact that they're mostly all so easy to peacefully resolve things with them combined with the fact that starting a genocide route basically requires you to go out of your way to specifically hunt down EVERY monster and the fact you have time travel makes the whole self defense excuse fall apart entirely for me IMO. Ultimately Clover is the one who is more powerful in these situations, and I think that it is their responsibility to try to end things in a somewhat peaceful manner. Also regarding Martlet, Clover never needs to kill her but tries to do so 3 seperate times (snowdin, the dunes, UG Apartments). Clover never needs to do this at all, especially at the end of the game when they could have just gone to Asgore but they specifically went out of their way to enact their "Justice" upon her. Clover also never needs to kill Starlo either but kills him anyways. Regarding the Aftermath of the genocide route, I think death is actually a more pleasant alternative for Clover honestly. Clover becomes Level 20 at the end of the geno route and this has caused negative personality changes for them (Extremely impatient and moody and general lack of compassion) and they developed serious violent tendencies while also having the ability to kamehameha anything at any given moment. Clover is very unlikely to actually have a good life on the surface because of these things. Clover might have the ability to end the world which is definitely not an ability that some random child should have. Clover could also end up being dangerous to those around them or those who they think deserve to die for whatever reason whether or not their reasons are justifiable or not.
the reason why he killed starlo is because he asked for a duel which in other words means a fight. I think if starlo never asked for a duel clover would not have killed him because he was shown time and time again not to kill if the monster didn't started it an example of this would be mo instead of killing him we let him go
@@Just-yx6rv Yeah but Clover directly breaks the rules of the duel which is generally just a dick move. And if they didn't do that they would have learned that Starlo never actually planned on killing them he just wanted to feel cool. Starlo never needed to die
@@deesnyder8201 that is a dick move, but ig clover didn't care. not trying to justify their actions, btw, but they either heard the word "FIGHT!" (love screwing with their head ofc) or just felt very angry that starlo's playing all fun cowboys with them and thought of the 5 other fallen kids as they killed starlo. i'm sure they thought of those kids the entire time during the genocide route.
honestly, i understand where you're coming from, but clover has no way of knowing any background info you mentioned here. they only have an outsider's perspective, and last i checked, they don't even know much, if anything about chara and asriel, causing them to feel justified in their actions. also, LOVE. must i explain myself further? i do agree with you on how death is a better alternative for clover, though (plus, although the fallen kids must have been mentally screwed over by the time they were revived, they likely _were_ revived by the end of true pacifist, seeing as how all other monsters were too [my personal headcanon is that clover and the other 5 kids were stuck in the coffins for a while until someone (hopefully) got out and helped everyone else out as well, lol]). true pacifist is definitely still a shitty ending though, and only enables the monsters, all the way. at the very least, clover should've tried to help the fallen kids after them, by making the event more public or something. my personal headcanon for the ending instead is that clover did all the stuff in true pacifist ending, but instead of voluntarily giving up their soul, they went to confront asgore and talk some sense into him, maybe for the sake of the eighth fallen over everything else.
Ngl the people who try to justify geno are either illiterate or just hate Undertale, every excuse is disproven by simple media literacy. “Self defense” You are hunting down every monster in the area with the intent of wiping out them all, that’s not self defense, that’s just murder. You also start a fight with Martlet and pull out a gun on Mo (and no, Clover did not the Martlet was a part of the Royal Guard, they didn’t even know what the Royal Guard was) “Monsters wanted to kill humans” Are you really trying to say Martlet, Sweet Corn, Dalv, Toriel, and everyone wanted to kill humanity? Also most monsters don’t even know they’re harming you, bullet patterns are how they express themselves “Asgore wanted war” I think anyone who even slightly understands Asgore knows he didn’t actually want war,he was just angry after the humans took his children from him, he felt horrible after killing 6 kids, how would he want an actual war? The most he would do is scare the humans off. Also using someone else’s crimes to justify yours is still crime.
This is not in any way justified. If Clover just went after Asgore and not several innocents, only aggressors, THEN I'd understand. Clover just slaughters countless innocents, most that probably had nothing to do with the kills. If there's one or two bad apples, you don't chop down the entire fucking tree, their actions are completely unjustifiable. And you know what? If Clover was just out for relentless revenge, and that was like, actually stated, I wouldn't mind, but then they have them do stupid shit like let Martlet and Axis go for a while, and that doesn't make me go "oooh they're just going after agressors 🥺" it makes me think they're FUCKING STUPID for not just KILLING them, and letting them run off to get stronger and have bullshit boss fights. And you can't even SAY that they weren't aggressors because they ATTACKED THEM BEFOREHAND, but Clover lets them go anyways for no damn reason instead of just shooting them to death immediately. You got monsters like fucking Penilla, who just wants to draw, Dunebud, who just wants to play, and SWEET CORN, who just wanted to spread JOY, and what does Clover do? Kill them without a second thought. But no, a fucking bird that tries to kill them? Nah, they GOTTA let her go, because she's the devs favori-I MEAN because she just said to stop fighting. You cannot ever convince me that Clover is justifed for what they did to EVERYONE just because of the actions of a FEW people, do you not hear how fucked up that sounds to say? And what's worse is that the monsters just treat Clover like a normal ass human, despite how INHUMANE it is to do this, if they just saw Clover as some inhuman demon like CANON Undertale did with its genocide route, and called out how Clover just wants revenge, and not justice at all, that would have made way more sense. There is no defense to be made, Clover going after EVERYONE is unforgivable, unjustifiable, this is very obviously WORSE than just a few monsters killing a few humans out of NECESSITY. And I know Clover probably didn't know why the monsters did this but even if they DID or didn't, that doesn't mean they get to KILL countless bystanders.
killing honorably isn't really a justification, and neither is searching for a fight. If you look for a fight because "If they attack you, you are justified to kill them", that's pretty much you either attacking them (which you probably do, you are the one with first turn most of the time) or provoking them to attack you.
Yeah, that was my big complaint with this idea (besides the fact that it ignores saving which massively changes the morality of this situation due to the ability to revive from death).
never watched the actual video, i just read the comments (since i can't listen to it rn), but according to other comments, clover doesn't attack non-hostile monsters like frisk does in their respective genocide routes. frisk tries to attack monster kid at one point while clover only attacks those who start an encounter. and while i understand the point that some monsters (especially ones from the ruins) just communicate through their attacks in encounters, please understand that clover is a kid who DOESN'T KNOW THIS. not to mention, love is a corrupting quality, causing them to further disconnect from any empathy they may have for the people they kill (which is likely not a lot, as clover doesn't know much, if anything, about asriel and chara, and only know these monsters cruelly killed 5 innocent children and will kill them too). i understand and agree with your complaints surrounding the wording of this, though.
undyne would be more fitting, as we've seen how asgore acts around genocidal human children (surprisingly more hospitable compared to actually innocent kids, smh [js like the american school system fr-]).
I think the big hole in this theory is that thanks to Flowey's power clover is basically immortal. Therefore any argument revoling around self-defense doesn't really make any sense. With Clover's power, they have the chance to talk down almost every monster without having to worry about death and thus change the underground for the better long term. Ultimately things are imperfect in any ending, but Clover is setting an example of mercy in pacfist that monsters will remember. However, we don't see the impact of this due to Clover being in different regions of the underground than Frisk. Furthermore, Clover in Pacfist gives monsters a chance to reevaluate their ways and grow as beings rather than simply punishing them for being fearful of humans, a fear that genocide Clover will only reinforce. Furthermore, Undertale's neutral endings indicate that if Asgore dies Undyne takes over and is even more anti-human than Asgore combine that fact with a recent massacre, and the chance for long-term peace is slim. Therefore Clover should use their power to set the best example possible. Also killing Flowey makes the true pacifist ending in Undertale (arguably the best ending for humans and monsters) impossible. Furthermore, even if Clover was at risk of dying they could still choose to flee rather than fight most enemies Not only that, but I do believe that in the genocide route, Clover is still seeking out enemies they stay in the same space for a long time knowing enemies will fight them. They are picking fights and teaching other monsters that humans are dangerous. We see this in Zenith Marlet who admits that's given up her belief in the goodness of humans and Asgore who before his death seems to believe that war with humans is more necessary than he realized thus Clover's rampage has ensured a greater slaughter. Besides the monsters only killed five humans in contrast to the dozens of lives Clover ended In the end, I also think this argument mirrors real arguments used by governments to justify the massive slaughter of perceived enemies something that we know is unjust.
That is not true because unlike Frisk... Clover literally DOES die no matter what they do no matter the route, most of these in fact due to slightly challenging Flowey who is the provider of the power you say keep them alive, but in reality only makes them a puppet to Flowey since this power completely depends on him and what he wants to do. Clover in pacifist doesnt make the monsters reevaluate ANYTHING, in fact they only reward the monsters by being another cog in a machine that was unecessary and evil by nature, if Clover did want to make them reevaluate they would either have tried to kill Asgore or perhaps even destroying their own soul to send a message. I am NOT going to talk about real world issues completely unrelated on a frickin Undertale discussion. No way. Clover is not an government trying to justify its atrocities, Clover is an kid pissed at an kingdom for killing children with an false sense of victimhood trapped in a cycle where they die no matter what, not comparable, as in a survival standpoint Clover is an an single kid in a place that WILL kill them.
The argument that all monsters attack Clover first, and therefore Clover is justified in fighting back is actually not true in a vengence route run. Clover will attack Martlet, dispite Martlet showing no hostility, but instead concern for their safety. She even allows Clover to get 4 hits in before she starts fighting back (unless you apologise first). You could argue, I suppose, that Martlet makes an implicit statement of hostility towards humanity by joining the royal guard, but even in the fight, she outright states that she believes not all humans are bad (which may be why Clover shows her mercy in the end). In the end, I think I can empathize with Clover, even though I would not defend their actions. Which is way more than I can say about Undertale's protagonist, whos actions make no sense whatsoever during a genocide run.
Monsters couldn't have started the war. The reason it all begun in the first place was humanity finding out that if a monster were to absorb a human soul, it would easily grant them the power to just collect more within a short amount of time before becoming god. With that discovery and fear, humans wage war on monsterkind. And worst of all, not a single human soul was taken or even absorbed. Taking that into consideration, monsters had the power to win the war effortlessly. Yet.. they did not..? Such a turn of events can only mean 2 things. Monsters had yet no prior knowledge of such a thing as "absorbing souls for power" also meaning that the humans could have lied about their reasoning behind war. OR that they already were fully aware about that, yet despite it all still didn't commit to such faulty actions, furthermore showing how kind the race truly is. All of this info is found ingame in Waterfall.
they were 'kind' during the war in this respect (but definitely should not have been, i agree with you there), yet they took it all back when asriel was killed (which, i get it was fuelled by emotions, but still makes no effing sense; they should've known it'd look really bad to the humans to see this random eldritch being holding a dead child?). also, ONLY BOSS MONSTERS CAN ABSORB HUMAN SOULS, meaning only toriel and asgore were capable of this. anyway, there are some plot holes there, but it doesn't change the fact that these grown ass adults were approaching and killing kids. for some of them, it was actually a matter of communication (mainly ruins monsters), which i totally understand, but remember, these kids only had outsiders perspectives. they didn't know this, and all they understood was that these creatures, who were apparently 'appropriately' (their words not mine) known as monsters wanted them dead. in addition to clover's slaughter of like half of monsterkind, other kids before clover likely did not have a flowey around to keep them alive (or at least, this is the take i'm going with until we have undertale green, purple, blue, etc...). this suddenly justifies integrity's massacre even further than clover's already was (unless they attacked random defenseless monsters minding their own business like frisk did with monster kid, that is). i get your point: humans started the war. humans trapped monsters underground. humans killed asriel (but regarding this last point, they just saw a random eldritch being holding a dead child). but their innocent children do not deserve the brunt of the propaganda asgore fed monsterkind (i'm not actually an asgore hater and can empathize with him in that i'm willing to let him put his murders behind, but he still wronged those (usually) innocent children. he's morally grey like flowey in this respect though).
Yo guys are insane. You are literally blaming Gunhat for mass murder even tho Player is the one in control and Cliver never chose to be mass murderer. It reminds me of Chara. Half of fandom blames Chara in everything even tho Player controls everything
Well how about he just stop doing what we tell him to? Not like he can't. I get that. You gotta tie up that one "omg so meta" theory everywhere, but sometimes you gotta remember that player is not the manipulator, but just a witness of the events in game. Otherwise, you might stretch it even further and proclaim that Frisk is a zombie, who'se body Chara, Ink Sans, Error Sans, Player, Goku and Gaster share between each other. Does that make sense to you? For me, it makes as much sense as NarraChara theory, while devaluating Frisk as a character even more.
@@charismaentertainer1657 Then how did the humans know monsters have the ability to steal souls? Also, thanks to Asgore there have been 6 deaths of children.
@@Idazmi7 because it’s a scenario that’s happened long beforehand? Monsters have absorbed humans souls and humans have absorbed boss monster souls. During this peace humans were scared that it could happen again since it was more likely to get a human then a boss monster since they’re rare. They conclud that getting rid of them was the best solution despite the monsters not implying they have any plans to have this happen again, and would more likely fight against someone who’d attempt it.
Something i think people overlook because we are seeing the stroy in the pov of the mosters that if clover didnt kill the monsters asgore wouldve killed 2 children broke the barrier AND KILL ALL OF HUMANITY, if some monsters are incocent so do at least some humans, clover isnt bad because this isnt about being bad this is about survival if humans dont fight back the mosters wouldve killed them ALL
“nooooooo why would le monsters kill the humans for their souls to break the barrier they deserve to be killed even though humans put them in this position!11!!😡😡😢😢”
@marzmaybe they're the ones who lost the war to humans who are 100% dead by the events of undertale (you can see this with how the humans in the war are still using their primitive ass weapons) and monsters still think they're justified in killing children that fall into their kingdom because of that. Clover also only ever attacks the monsters who try to attack him and kill him, and he will not attempt to kill monsters who don't, only threaten them (look at mo in the steamworks). Clover was 100% in the right to do what he did after realizing the extent the monsters did to gather their precious human souls, and no matter how much regret asgore feels about doing it, he still did it, and intended to do it to frisk too until frisk beat him to an inch of his life.
Another thing to note, the monsters don't bother remembering the human names and immortalizing despite them being doomed to die upon falling into the underground.
Imagine how cruel it is when not one, even the kindest like Martlet, do not bother to remember those they sacrificed for their freedom. Clover learns all the humans have died from Flowey early one, but to not hear any of them utter their names, but know humans have died, I can see Clover taking it as the devalue of human life, and just imagine how further supplemented that is by being constantly attacked and fending for your life. The fact he went down their to get justice for the other fallen humans and then EXPERIENCING what they went through, fighting for their lives every waking moment? I'd understand becoming violently angry at that point alone from the perspective of someone who believes in justice, but then this is further supplemented by the fact Martlet calls humans who kill monsters "bad humans".
Like.... Put that into perspective, you go and you can die just for walking down any sidewalk, from any random monster, and the idea you dare defend your life and take the life of another makes you one of the bad humans? Martlet, despite sparing you after killing a few people, still thinks you're in the WRONG, that YOU should be the one to spare THEM when can't walk through a SINGLE AREA without getting PROOF of what happened to all the other humans!
I mean its no wonder she thought Clover killed her when Flowey stabbed her in the back, its exactly what most of the monsters would do if they could, its not like they all start a conversation first like Asgore before the fight starts, they let you take your turn, but even that seems to be a principle mechanic of the universe rather than their choice going by the genocide fight with Sans. Honestly I'm waiting for someone to do a skit where Clover tells Martlet all the reasons he's killing them all after Martlet realizes she can't win, and it just DESTROYS her morality and belief in her actions, imagine Clover telling her every last individual he killed tried to kill him first, and that she just defended the monsters who are all the type responsible for the five who died to begin with.
Not ONE that you kill will spare YOU if you don't struggle to survive, (I think not even Martlet would've spared you), and the more logic you put to it, the worse it all gets, like the fact most monsters you don't kill probably assume you're a monster like Martlet originally did, and even the few who know you're a human and don't fight you like Mo admit to being openly willing to deal with an open homicidal felon.
I'm gonna be frank, I'm shocked Clover didn't turn around after killing Asgore, and hunt down every single last monster in the underground so that any human who falls will no longer have to worry about being murdered.... Just slowly starving to death I guess, but I could see Clover trying to find a way to break the barrier from the outside, TBH.
I mostly agree
But for the last point, I think Clover's best move post genocide would be to try to change things in the human world. We don't know if mount ebbot has any security beyond a legend that vaguely warns people to not go. But with Clover carrying the literal essence of five dead kids, they can prove to human society that mount ebbot at least needs to be barricaded. That would save both humans and non combatant monsters
Clover:🍀🔫💛 m.ruclips.net/video/I3MehWjLBz8/видео.html
I would like to mention, though that it stated in the Snowden library that attack patterns are a method of communication meaning that they don’t necessarily realize they’re hurting Clover or Frisk but since nobody ever tells Clover that this is still stands
if jerry was in uty clover's reasons could be disproved
@@H-division what do you mean disproved? That's where justice is made
@@airam1721 cause jerry doesn't attack you, he's just annoying
What amazes me the most is that Clover let Marlet go TWICE. Even trough she said that she is going to stop him he still let her go. And even at the very end when he faces Asgore he still lets him make the first Attack unlike chara who initiatet attack. Truly Clover never attacket first the only time he did was when starlo chalanged him to a dual but since poth paries wantet the dual there is also nothing wrong with that
Like... technically every monster attacks you first, its their fault if they end up dead
And game doesnt show "But nobody game" sequence when location cleared because its not that there is nobody here anymore, but that everyone who is left is scared shitless to attack you
@@skell6134
FINALLY someone understands this.
I actually got curious in one of my Neutral routes and tried to clear out a late area in the game and it took me _SO MUCH LONGER_ You have to kill much more than 20 monsters to get the 'X' bubble in every room.
Unlike in Og Undertale the "But nobody came" appears not because everyone is dead, it appears because there is no one left to fight anymore.
this might be a small thing that probably doesnt mean anything, but i feel like frisk in no mercy actively looks out for monsters to kill, judging by how they smile in waterfall genocide, while clover still has the ! reaction bubble as if theyre surprised that another monster is pretty much ambushing them out of the blue
not to mention considering the human faction, maybe clover was told before they ever set foot into the underground that monsters will trick and are ruthless, so why not reciprocate those feelings back.
and well, they're not on the quest for power, its just every time they kill a monster, they distance themselves from monsters, bringing themselves more to hurt them, which is why they gained a ton of lv upon hearing axis' confession, due to them distancing themselves from axis so they can hurt axis greatly
you make a good point. no way are clovers actions justified but the fact that he came to this conclusion and acted up on it is very understandable.
@@marshader how is killing a terrorist organization bad?
Glad that I found this video, as I've been thinking about this topic this whole day. So...
1)Asgore is a coward, yes, but Ceroba also states that MONSTERS are simply not ready to wage another war(in her opinion), so they kinda have to prepare. That's why Alphys and Chujin were making robots, the latter being a genius who could have handed MONSTERS a way to win against humans(transformation of SOULS). Also, seven human SOULS can make a god,if I remember correctly. But in case this works only with flowey, it means that MONSTERS, after breaking the barrier, would be able to have 7 godlike brothers(Asriels first form is, in fact, a repeat of when he absorbed only one soul, Chara's).
2)Humans moved on after war. What I mean is the pacifist route of UT, in which MONSTERS, surprise-surprise, come to peace with HUMANS, meaning that really, it's the MONSTERS who want to continue the war, while HUMANS do not.
3)Royal guard is supposed to get human SOULS, not ordinary monsters. Also, if I'm not wrong, some battle quotes are changed in genocide, which point to the fact that monsters, are, in fact, kinda terrified of Clover,and yet they still keep coming.
4)Monsters shape the killer. You see, the LOVE growing points to how much someone is prone to violence. Not only that, creatures naturally gain experience(XP) on how to fight when they are constantly attacked. What I mean is that if monsters preferred not to attack, there would not even be a chance for someone to get strong and wipe out everyone they meet, because they would not be prone to doing it and would not have the strength to.
5)Why not try to let children enjoy their life in Underground at least somewhat until they peacefully die?
6)"Umm,actually Martlet also doesn't want us to die" 🤓. But really, she even sides with us when we kill Ceroba on the pacifist route, while North Star say that Clover is "lower than dirt" to him(i chose the "I'm sorry" option though, dunno if saying nothing changes his opinion).
TL;DR
HUMANS are not seeking war, while MONSTERS do, and in doing so, they force those who encounter them to become stronger and more violent, thus making even children killers.
Monsters believe humans are still against them because of Asriel being attacked, although Asgore is a bit of an unreliable narrator they have good reasons to be scared of them and want to attack (especially considering how much stronger humans are when they have intent to kill)
Monsters don't know what will happen on the surface and humans don't know what will happen if monsters break free. It is this mutual fear that puts the two sides at risk of destroying each other. This is honestly why a lot of wars happen in real life. If two groups can't trust each other they will often resort to attacking preemptively out of fear of worse violence later. What humans and monsters and the real world need is a little more trust in each other.
A point important is mounster need human souls for freedom, no body mounster what reallly killy you in a pacifist route (excet probably undyne, mettaton, flowey) only want your soul to break the barrier.
@@gabrielmbx9253Yes, but i really dont have any reason to help them either especially when they try to kill me so actively, no matter if they back off after awkward friendly conversation(they still come back to fight you again later smh)
@@skell6134 corrigo mi punto anterior, realmente los mountros (la mayoria) no buscan atacarye, solo no saben que eres humano, esto provoca que la magia que ellos provocan (que normalmente no daña aun mountro) dañe tu alma, esto lo sabemos ya que en undertale nos disen que los patrones de magia son una forma de socializar entre los mountros. Por lo que si estan intentandote matar, pero no es la intencion de la mayoria de mountros. Y a tu otropunto relamnete no te ataca el mismo mounstro son distintos solo que por ejemplo en una ruta genocida estos huyen al ver que sus compañeros mueren por lo que pareven que son mas pcos de los que realmente son. Y no se trata de perdonarlos si no de matarlos, por que no hay razon con suficiente peso para ello (con excepciones)
Exactly!!! It’s certainly not 100% justified but I can understand Clover’s reasoning
Humans always have reasonings for their atrocities, even those that sound insane
I know that's the thing that makes me kinda uncomfortable with this video. While I understand the creator isn't trying to send a broader political message it seems eerily similar to some propaganda in the real world
@@HumanOnEarth128 I use it as a vessel for political propaganda, because it shows how something that looks this bad can seem to have logical arguments backing it up, or even seem like it's for the greater good. Because irl, countries do justify their violence like that
@@minestar2247 That’s true
I think that yellow undertale contrary to what undertale shows it tries to be more in mode nobody is right and nobody is wrong they all have each their reason to act.
The only one that isn't justifiable is Martlet, honestly. And even then, he lowers his weapon and gives her a genuine chance to flee and get out of there when shes hurt.
The second time though, Clover really had no choice. Only one was leaving there alive.
1.Clover freakin SPARED martlet in snowdin
2.Then they did let her go in desert even though she said about her stopping them
3.Martlet died, trying to fight Clover, even though she could've jusf stayed out of this, but she just decided to die miserably
Also worth mentioning, that in UY canon, Melody (the Integrity soul girl, name is inspired by the team Undertale Integrity, who, seemingly, will create the next chapter of that lore, if all goes well) had gone in hiding for years, until the day she went to Snowdin, probably to get some scraps of food, encountered Kanako and Dalv, injured the latter and FLED, although we know that she could kill Dalv, and probably Kanako, there and then, and she would never flee if she was a genocidal one. For all we know, her death from Axis' hands could happen as a result of a pacifist run, wherein she had to live her last years in caves, as a savage hermit, always in hiding and on the run, so that the Royal Guard could not spot her, fighting her way out on the occasion of being spotted, because as long as injured monsters are not willing to chase her and prevent her from fleeing, she absolutely could fight and remain a pacifist.
clover didnt do anything wrong he was just based and red pilled
thank you autistic rap battles
clover is a based sigma overlord!1!111!1!!!!!!1!!!1!
This is a very complicated conversion topic to debate, I mean, both parties have their reasons and are justified in what they do:
Asgore is the king of the monsters and has to look after the good of all of them and maintain everyone's hope after the humans locked up his entire race and killed his son, Asgore has every reason to kill humans and have his souls (although killing children is already questionable).
Clover is a child who goes in search of the missing children but upon learning that they died at the hands of Asgore, he begins a genocide to wipe out the monsters to avenge the fallen humans. Clover has every reason to kill monsters (although killing an entire race for the actions of a few is questionable).
What I see here are the representatives of two races that look after the well-being of their own race, I mean, why do monsters have to worry about humans (the race that condemned them to despair)? Or why does Clover have to worry about monsters (the same ones who are trying to kill him and who have already killed other children)?
This is why I love Undertale so much, everything is done in grayscale.
Asgore can leave the children alone. They'll grow old and die anyway, and he's literally ageless.
What you undertale/ undertale yellow fans fail to understand is
"The Lore"
Clearly clover or even frisk do not wipe out a whole race, they only murder a small portion of the race
@@jevilsugoma1743 EXACTLY!! and even then, while frisk attacks EVERY monster they meet out of morbid curiosity, clover actually only attacks those that attack them. it's absolutely justified, imo, these guys are basically actually terrorizing children.
@@getleeshyyd Although I agree that Frisk chooses to attack the monsters in the genocide route, HOWEVER we have no proof that *they* do it out of curiosity, it's the player that makes them do it, but guys like me or ultimate_capper try to ignore that a *player* exists as we want to have a actual discussion.
@@getleeshyydexcept frisk in genocide is a monster
You might be able to argue that they were defending themselves but they also have the ability to load saves and they already know they do before they encounter their first enemy
Even if they were defending themselves at first that would be the neutral route
In genocide you have to go out of your way to get them to confront you so you can kill them instead of just continuing along the path and fighting ones that encounter you along the way
And you smile about it too
It's even worse when you do betrayal kills if you count those
People like papyrus sans calls you out on in neutral routes because papyrus never is trying to kill you and even if you get him low he will concede the fight and stop fighting you if I recall meaning you have to go out of your way to go ahead and kill him
In neutral and Pacifist if he wins he lets you go rest
In genocide he straight up refuses to fight and tried to get you to stop doing what your doing and you just murk him because he's in the way
Frisk states that monster kid a character who tries to bond with you even in genocide is in his way and checking him you demean him
And you attempt to kill him simply because he wanted you to stop
Sans is completely justified in his hatred of you with the fact you can play with them like gods and you chose to do that with your power
Likely some monsters have love if theyve killed humans or bad monsters and asgore definitely has a lot
But you have even more you don't even do it because you hate monsters you just thinks it's fun and you want more power
Undyne and mettaton even theorize that you probably wanna kill the humans too *which is true I'll get back to that*
You are treated as not human nor monster on genocide you become a cruel being that a human or monster simply cannot fathom or define
Papyrus thinks you aren't a human at first and asgore doesn't even know what kind of monster you are completely unable to tell your human despite seeing many
Ontop of all of this
You kill asgore when he doesn't wanna fight you and flower just because you are mad at him for attacking you at the start even though he's helped you ever since
Even Chara scolds you if you keep doing genocides or if you wanna reset the world
Speaking of
When you destroy that world you are effectively destroying all of it including the universe
So all monsters you didnt kill are dead
All humans are dead
All animals
All trees
If aliens exist there dead too
The entirety of life destroyed
Rather you choose to or don't you are still indirectly responsible
Genocide frisk is a jerk
Genocide clover has a reason to be upset and defend himself
Genocide frisk literally is just bored and wants to have fun
And if you wanna add the player into it you are the one killing everything not frisk with that interpretation meaning you as the player are the jerk
This makes sense, actually! I agree. Those are really good points which are pretty fairly used, and actually justify Clover's actions. In Undertale, it is said that some monsters are hiding rather than being killed by Frisk, so not all of them died. Clover is only attacking the monsters that are attacking him, just like Frisk.
Frisk is different from Clover. The game makes very clear they only do what they do out of malicious curiosity and even hurt people who dont want to hurt them like Papyrus or MK.
The equivalent to Clover genocide in Undertale would probably be some kind of neutral where you kill almost everyone but Papyrus.
If we talk about genocide in the og game, nobody survives that as you literally erase their world.
@@mechamedegeorge6786 true, lol
My guy, you are hunting down every monster in the area with the intention of wiping them all out
@@flameofvictory4305 ^ ALSO true. idk why i never commented this actually but literally, the last sentence is not accurate. clover still did it because they thought it was the right thing and the monsters were bad guys, as opposed to frisk, who did it for the sake of curiousity (i mean, i wouldn't actively seek out monsters if i was an angry murderous clover, just a no mercy neutral).
For me the best way to truly understand UTY's genocide route is to stop seeing it from our prespective(as a player) and seeing it as a person in-universe, no outside knowledge of the underground or even about monsters at all.
Imagine you just learn that there is this hidden race of Monsters that once were at war against humanity and even though they lost they apparently had killed 5 children that just randomly stumbled upon their sealed prison.
The first though would logically be a bad one, "monsters?", "killing children?", "were once at war?!", of course they might be seen as evil, and clover, atleast in genocide, could've reacted that way, he wants justice for what they did, it's in our own human nature to act like that. We seek a reasonable action and well, Clover, despite murdering a lot of innocent monsters, acts very reasonable to me. In the terms of someone who actively seeks justice
Except he hypocritically fails to account for the acts of the humans and why the monsters might be this way
Which is why on Pacifist he is willing to let asgore get away with it and give him his soul for the benefit of monster kind who have been done unjustly by humans
He is seeking out justice for his young friends but is also fishing out unjustness by killing the monsters that could never dream to hurt him especially since some monsters give up fighting after getting damaged enough
@gabrielchastain6091 they are still attacking him with intent to harm or kill so retaliation is expected especially considering Clover is a child.
@@dillonpeterson66 fair enough
Although clover being a child doesn't make it more justified considering the abilities of clover and frisk in either route
They are powerful
@gabrielchastain6091 so are monsters technically. Undyne does suplex bolders.
@gabrielchastain6091 I'd also like to point out the actions of humans from back in the war is irrelevant considering that was presumably hundreds of years ago and these are kids who probably weren't even an idea yet.
my right ear is crying
lets see how you fare against my CLOVER BLAST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*Screams in agony.*
'I'm not sorry that i have to do this to you Axisgore. It's time to show you my true power... クローバーブラスト (CLOVER BLAST)!!'
Wekk I'm dæd-*explodes*
Asgore
At first it's vengeance, but that LV corrupts Clover to the point that he can Cheat a Dual and in order to finish Genocide you have to kill robots. Soulless machines, that don't even give you XP (Head-canon, Clover hates ChatGPT, so they take it out on Steamworks robots), so, I would say that when Flowey says "..." as his save point dialogue, that's where you can't justify it anymore.
You can win the dual without cheating (waiting for a bell is not an actual duel thing, it's fair as long as you take the paces and face your opponent; at that point, it's just who can draw and shoot faster). Also, Clover destroying the bots isn't really a problem. The ones Clover kills attack him first, so the explanation of Clover taking out anything hostile still works. In fact, them not technically being alive and giving no EXP can actually support Clover's justification. Clover isn't just a bloodthirsty maniac who wants to destroy life, or just trying to gain more power. He's once again just taking out anything that poses a threat to humans.
"Clover hates ChatGPT"
Based tbh
Illogical bs, how is killing a robot who has brutally murdered a child is unjustified?
@@jevilsugoma1743 because there was way too much other murders to get to that, plus the useless robot genocide that DIDN'T do any crimes.
@@JezElectro13 I am pretty sure you are the same guy who tried to defend Asgore.
So I will debunk that first.
So, you basically think that because Asgore does not know that humans who fall down are kids, it's somehow justified for him to kill them and how he has a reason.
According to your logic Hitler is justified in what he did because he also had a reason.
Saul goodman got nothing on this dude
This is in my top 5 favourite things that anybody has ever said about me
hi clover here, did you know you have gun rights? the second amendment says you do.
In defense of Asgore, he regrets killing these children (also, it's not his fault only Children fall down), declared war because of rage of losing two children himself (and to give his people hope), and he doesn't really want to fight (He breaks your mercy button, so that you won't spare him, as he thinks he doesn't deserve mercy). Also, taking one SOUL, crossing the barrier, and taking the remaining SOULs would be even worse, because the moment everyone will be free, the war would happen again, and it could result in loosing everything essencially INSTANTLY after regaining it again, and even more. (Also, I don't think negotiating about taking SOULs is a good idea, it's like negotiating with someone about their death). And from what we know, it was Humans who began the war, because of fear of Monsters' power to absorb a human soul.
Death Row Exists. Humans at least in our world kill other humans.
Furthermore Asgore didn't know that exclusively children would fall underground that's just a freaky coincidence
Thing I don't understand is; Human Souls persist AFTER death, so, whose saying that he couldn't just go in the dead of night to a couple of graveyards and grave-rob human souls. I know it sounds ridiculous, but it could, in theory, work.
@@voidensvoid While i bet they persist for awhile upon death, i imagine that human souls eventually shatter because of the game over screen in Undertale and the need to preserve the souls within containers
@@sypenn2502I don't think so, in all honesty. SOULs are pretty much the life essence of you, the culmination of your being, as flowey says. It's scientifically known that energy cannot be created or destroyed. And I'm not sure how much logic can apply to here considering magic and all that, But I disagree about the whole jar thing. Theyre sentient as shown in undertale, uty, deltarune, etc. also, in the true lab it says they persist because of their determination. Which is just in their SOULs. But yeah, I feel there's a lot of missing information.
Let's just pay attention to the fact that we do not kill those who did not attack us. Here comes a monster and doesn’t attack us, and we don’t attack them either! Even with Mo in Steamworks, there is no function "shoot him down", уou can only rob him.
Aren’t humans and monsters at war?
That’s the only reason you need to justify Clovers actions.
They used to be but after Undertale's Pacifist ending, they make peace with humanity. Humans already moved on after the war, while Underground wanted to continue the war before they were freed.
Does war justify everything? There are no battles or soldiers Clover fights these are all random battles with civilians whom Clover appears to be picking fights with. Testing them is a sick way to justify their deaths.
@@HumanOnEarth128
The monsters attack Clover because Asgore ordered that all humans are to be destroyed. If you fight in a war, you're a combatant: a legitimate target.
@@Idazmi7granted humans started the war by killing asriel
@@danlomanalo4161 technically the war existed even before that, monsters wouldn't be trapped underground otherwise. 🤓☝
i see what you mean tho. but also, from outsider perspective, asriel looked like a freaky eldritch being, and i'm sure they thought he killed chara. just like how clover thinks THEY were justified in killing all monsters who attacked them, asriel's killers think they were justified because they thought asriel killed chara, even though this wasn't true.
totally different contexts, but same line of thinking.
What I think about geno Clover is that geno frisk is pure evil but geno Clover thinks its the right thing since asgore killed 5 innocent children sooo that's what I think
I respect the approach, but here is mine: Although I think it's mostly right to go for this route because of the it's own "justice" it has and I also do agree on some points of your explanation, we always get the first attack/act (mostly, sometimes genocide bosses can attack first) and even tho the text mostly says that the monster got close and they started the fight, we always get to hit no matter what (if we dont miss with our own skill), while the monsters don't attack the soul directly they just make patterns that we can avoid mostly (not counting bosses since they attack us for a reason and are mone unfair) so overwall, I believe that the enemies aren't really enemies because of this, and of course, they become NPCs when we spare them
Well after sparing the random encounter monsters they literally attack you AGAIN after you walk like twenty more steps
There are multiple different ones, why do you think there are, for example, two dunebuds in the same fight, or if you kill them in geno why do they keep coming back, also there is a kill count so yeah...
@@h5ypr
I get where you're coming from, but we need to look at the bigger picture. I, also don't believe that clover's actions are 100% justified in the genocide route. However, I also believe that Clover giving up their soul isn't really the correct option either. Clover ending their life for monster kind is basically just giving the monsters more reason to keep trying, basically hoping that with your sacrifice, the next human will die, which will ultimately lead to another war between the species. You can argue that Clover willingly gave up their soul for monster kind, which is technically true, but if you look at it through the player's perspective, it's not really a choice when you're only given one option. All in all, I can find flaws in every ending, I just don't think the game should punish you by going out of your way and aiding people who have backstabbed you before (Starlo, Ceroba). The genocide route can be considered an act of desperation after clover sees that they can't escape their death through peaceful means, so they do all they can to escape their tomb.
I've got a looong string of grievances (including arguments similar to yours) I might make a video about it myself when I get back home in a few days.
technically all kills are classified as self defense due to the sheer fact that the monsters start the fights first
Ouch
You’re hunting down all of the monsters in the area with the intention of killing them, that’s not self defense, also you started a fight with Martlet
@@flameofvictory4305 nuh uh, Martlet forces you into the fight, legit the only way to not kill the monsters is trying to talk out of it, or doing some actions, while they're still trying to kill you
BRO THAT'S SO BASED.
I've been smacking my head against the wall trying to convey this point to the UT community , but monsters ain't sweet loving babus who deserves endless hugs and endless patience from humans. In the original UT it's mentioned countless times that Asgore's plan is not to simply "free his kind", no, this dude want to inflict genocide upon human, who has no responsibility for the war, cuz it happens like 100s of years ago.
So that's why Clover giving up their soul is such a shit ending. The narrative manipulates a child to end their life to essentially build a weapon of mass genocide of their own kind. And it's CANON.
A lot of people don't like to think about this, but we only have pacifist ending in the original UT because Frisk was lucky enough to be the 7th. If they fell anywhere between - there would be no pacifist ending. "The best ending" is built on 6 dead children before us, and while I believe it's implied that the humans were resurrected (the coffins are opened, and Asriel was able to resurrect every monster he killed (yes, he killed everyone be absorbing their souls), they still went through hell. Like the only reason Flowey exists is because the souls were experimented on. And I doubt that anybody asked for content).
Genocide ending was SO SATYSFYING. FINALLY we can see Asgore's ass getting hadoukened.
хороший аргумент однако рыжий рыжий конопатый убил дедушку лопатой
This.
A lot of UT fans forget sins of the monsters, because of course they're much more peaceful and better than humans.
Me: that spongebob meme where he shows a lot of garbage on different frames
1. 6 murdered children
2. experimentation on said children
3. questionable fights with any human/-one who passes monsters
4. declaring of war because of obvious fuck up from children of king, and then them dying to cave man who fear what they don't know. considering how old king is, he should know it should've been expected, considering again they were sealed for multiple generations
5. No, it's humanity's fault, also want to get out of underground, so double win
6. One good thing is Asgore wasn't propagating human murder so much. Monsters just fight anyway, they don't even know we're human in canon. And that's one of the things that is wrong in UT Yellow. In original, noone except guards really cared about capturing us.
@@homosexualheisenberg а ответ убил бабушку. Какой кошмар, а главное: за что?
I don't think the giving up soul ending is confirmed canon, as the flawed pacifist can make as much sense in the continuity
I'm pretty sure Asgore didn't actually want to carry out his plan to destroy humanity. In undertale, he even begs you to kill him and even kills himself in one ending
Now this is the nuanced take I was hoping to find. It's hard to say "it's just one/a few XYZ" when the better part of a small country is participating in the attempted murder, regardless if their attempts are all that effective.
I'm sorry but let's be real here, just because someone shot the wall next to you, doesn't mean the next one is necessarily going to miss too. We don't treat "warning shots" as permissable behavior when defending yourself for the same reason, there's still an active threat in that shot no reasonable context can excuse. OG UT missed a trick here, and it's awesome to see Yellow pick up on the nuance OG failed to deliver.
Preach!
as much as i like that "clover's method" theory it is a bit flawed tho cuz in the part were you dual with starlo if you didnt click fast enough starlo actully just shoot you with a rubber bullet but then clover just kill him non the less and dont forget were clover chase axis even tho he was not attacking
It'd like to add that the geno battle theme is called "enemy retreating" implying that the monsters want to escape you rather than fight you
Clover only shot axis when he was about to launch his energy ball thing, so its more of a response to axis's intentions
few things to remember:
Asgore IS a coward. he declared war on humanity again because he was upset his children were killed, and by the time he realized another war would result in his people dying, everyone had already been so full of nationalist sentiment for their success that it would have gotten rid of any hope they had to tell them the truth.
also, we know some details about the war. according to the signs in waterfall, humans declared war because they were fearful of the monsters power to absorb human souls. since human souls were so powerful, hundreds of monsters died and not a single human died. (it’s worth noting this is from the monsters themselves, so this may be biased.)
final point: it’s stated monsters will sometimes use magic as a form of saying hi, and they don’t know better.
however, this version of the genocide route is supposed to be seen as more justified because clover is the justice soul, and in this route, they’re bringing justice to his enemies by swearing to have vengeance. it’s also why in the pacifist route, clover willingly gives up their soul, because in that route they’ve seen how monsters were unfairly locked away.
anyways, thanks for reading my rant, and i like how this game is being interpreted by so many people. i agree with you that the genocide route here can be defended, because clover is the justice soul, and this is a form of justice, albeit a twisted form.
I kinda wanna ask, whats the justification for shooting Martlet when they dont even attack you for the first few turns then?
Clover is trying to make her realise that HE is the one killing the Monsters and taking him to the evacuees is a stupid idea.
yea good point
Clover knows she’s a royal guard, since asgore is king then a “royal” guard would work under him.
@@karmaspidr8680 Could just tell her
@@legalza0843 Even so, I don't think you can claim self defense when the person isnt attacking you until they get attacked themself ^^;
my right ear feels left out
Interesting video. Though there was literally no reason for Clover to attack Martlet 4 times after she wanted to help him. Even more so if he apologizes then proceeds to blast. She even asked what his name was and tried comforting him, thinking that he was lashing out because they were in a dangerous situation.
Because Martlet was a Royal Guard and they had mistaken Clover for another monster. It can be assumed that Clover simply thought that once Martlet would find out they were a human, she would immediately attack them, which is a pretty plausible assumption to make considering literally almost every monster clover has met this far wanted them dead. Clover decided it would be better to simply fight martlet right now instead of later on. Another theory could be that Clover was just anxious that everything was a trap, which is also perfectly plausible.
and another thing: clover doesnt even take out most of the underground as clover only explores (what we know of as) half of the underground no matter what route you go, waterfall and hotland are completely unaffected, they only take out the ones that attack them first which is why you can spare dalv but still be on geno if you continue in snowdin since dalv only attacks out of desperation and clover seemingly knows this which is why you can spare dalv but still do geno
Something the route also has is that it doesn't "force" us the way the other endings do.
Neutral forces us to both confront Martlet and accept her offer, regardless of how we interacted with her before rather than proceeding to Asgore.
Flawed pacifist forces an unavoidable death via undodgable attacks with no chance to fight back.
Pacifist forces a self-sacrifice which won't even have immediate gain, for people we barely just met.
Genocide Clover is truly Justified, Unlike Genocide Frisk, Genocide Clover at least had a reason
TBH i like undertale Yellow Genocide Especially in the Undertale Yellow Kanako Mod. Kanako is Gonna Kanakill you!
your point about clover not having been able to save if not for flowey made me realize, i love how the tradition of asriel helping out the human is carried over in this game, even if in a more twisted way
In undertale he took in chara, in deltarune its ralsei who aids kris to every inch of their being, and here its flowey "helping" clover survive
If Clover had to be tried in court, Saul Goodman could chalk their crimes down to a doing a little bit of trolling.
defense? no, no you're mistaken, clover is the *judge*
Have monsters been extremely cruel in their approach to gaining freedom? Sure, you make a good case for that. Does that mean Clover ought to wipe out large swathes of them? No, that's still horribly misguided.
The monsters are going to break the barrier eventually. Losing their king and the 5 souls is a setback, but someone else will rise to power, likely someone orders of magnitude more ruthless than ASGORE. That new ruler may even employ the strategy that ASGORE was too cowardly to take: using one soul to cross the barrier and taking 6 more from the surface. Then the war between humans and monsters will reignite, inevitably resulting in massive casualties, possibly even the extinction of the human race.
This is all pretty easy to infer. ASGORE even says as much at the end of Genocide: "Many more, of both our kinds, will perish because of this day." Short of wiping out the *entire* underground, Clover cannot possibly put a complete stop to monsters' quest for revenge.
So comparing the Pacifist route to the Genocide route again, we see:
- one route that will turn monsters even further against humans, making their eventual redeclaration of war even more bloody
- one route that, at the very least, improves many monsters' opinion of humanity, increasing the likelihood that monsters will decide to be peaceful when they go free
How is the latter not clearly better than the former?
(I appreciate the video, by the way, as much as I disagree with the conclusion. It certainly gives food for thought; I hadn't ever considered the angle that Clover may be testing monsters to see if they'll attack first.)
It doesn't matter how some monsters thiink of you, at the end Asgore's goal is the same: genocide upon humanity. If Frisk wasn';t able to reset and shape the world as they want, Clover's and other human's deaths would be steps to mass genocide of human kind.
So in this situation Clover has 2 choices: die and let this crazy asshole wipe out his kind or kill everyone who attacks them while leaving peaceful monsters live to gain enough power to kill this piece of sheesh and let the souls free. And the last one is CLEARLY better.
They can’t really get much crueler in their attempts to be free as actively murdering innocents. If anything they massively stand to become less cruel. The kids that end up trapped in the underground could just be taken care of just with a monster always close by to collect their soul when they die of natural causes. Toriel is the most likely inheritor to the throne at least initially and while there is a chance of revolt it’s worth noting that clover doesn’t really get as ruthless as frisk can at their most violent. Clover’s still less violet on “genocide” then frisk is on those runs where you kill everyone but toriel and the monsters revolt. Like killing papayrus when he really doesn’t mean harm to anyone Is a big step up from anything clover does especially when considering how his level may screw with his judgment in later choices. Notably asgore and non boss monsters being dead alone isn’t nearly enough to sway the public against humans enough that toriel can’t stop it in the neutral endings. Getting toriel on the throne drastically improves the situation and while she can’t see the nuance that yeah sometimes humans can be bad too protect all humans is better then kill all humans. Genocide here may turn out similarly to a just asgore and some non boss monster kill neutral run in undertale and those are relatively good endings and toriel in charge Is very much an ideal setup for the future when only considering what clover would know.
@@ryzhik9608 Asgore doesn’t speak for thousands of monsters. Also he’s trying to retaliate against the humans who locked monsterkind in a prison, kind of like that self defense you love preaching
@@reinaintherain Monsters who attack us speak for themselves, and so does the captain of the Royal Guard and monsters in New Home. Also catty and bratty. Like, it's not EVERYONE, but it's plenty.
So Asgore is trying to "defend themself" from humans... 100s of years after when none of those who locked them up is alive. Menwhile I say Clover is defending themselves against monsters who are literally ATTACKING RIGHT NOW
Nice self-defence, go think of a better defence
@@ryzhik9608 Ok, but it's still well justified to be afraid of humans who locked you in a prison. Clover has save points and can just not go out of their way to kill monsters or spare them on low hp, thinking they are 100% justified in their slaughter is frankly disturbing
honestly feel like it would be great if they made the genocide canon-able, by making martlet scripted kill you or something, but idk
FR! everyone thought justice doing geno was canon before uty came out (now it's integrity, which ig integrity souls can be 'corrupt' like how justice souls can, but still, don't gotta shit talk my ballerina homie like dat). and i love uty, it did some things way better than og ut, but true pacifist sucks ass!! true pacifist should've just ended the same as alt pacifist, with the exception of ceroba being dead ofc.
((my personal headcanon for that is that clover felt some sense of deja vu [in terms of flowey constantly resetting because they were no longer progressing any further] or felt there was no point in living further on in a life of secrecy-it's implied clover didn't have a nice life on the surface, so they didn't feel inclined to go back up there, and were thinking more so of their friends than asgore when sacrificing themself.))
My left ear enjoyed this video
I argued in defense of Clover super early into Yellow being released, lots of people don't really seem to get it.
It's a complicated matter.
On one side the monsters attack humans out of fear, because they were always told that humans are this evil creatures who trapped them underground forever. So of course when they see a human they're gonna react irrationally and attack at first sight.
But killing those 5 children doesn't justify their fear at all, even if they needed the souls to destory the barrier.
On the other side clover attacking out of self-defense is justified because the monsters attack them first and try to kill clover at every single encounter and at the same time clover wants to bring justice to the children who were ruthlessly killed.
But then you have to consider that clover intentionally fell inside the underground so they knew what they were getting into, and killing monsters will just make their fear for humans even worse so you can't blame them for attacking clover there.
Also thanks to flowey, clover here is basically immortal so even if they die they can come back and end battles peacefully instead, so there's no reason to kill monsters.
So yeah both sides (humans and monsters) are just trying to protect they're own people, but that doesn't mean they're justified for their bad actions.
Vengeance is not justice.
Even though Clover shares no bond with the First Human, do think WE are still at fault for their actions? i.e. No mercy run, I mean when you really think about neither we nor Clover reset, Flowey does and is in control the whole time that is until Clover reaches LOVE 20. Could you let me know what you think? Anyone can say something here if you see this comment.
i dont usually make these comments but I expected this channel to have atleast 1k
Only to find out that it has only 66. So ye have a subscribe
Although I can see where your approach comes from, and I saw where clovers reasoning came from while playing the game. I not only disagree with nearly all the points you made but go as far as to point at that this way of thinking is harmful.
Point number 1) "Asgore is a bad person, the monsters support Asgore, therefore clover is justified to kill all monsters".
the monsters have been imprisoned and were in a state of desolation for generations. it is common to see one's morality shift during these times especially when one promises clarity and freedom at the cost immoral actions. Let's take HAMAS'es rise to power for example. The Palestinians were mostly in favour of the group. and played a big role in the group winning the elections and eventually become the megalomaniac terroristic group we know of today. But why did they vote for him in the first place? it was due to the prolonged suffering and the incapacity of previous leaders to solve the issues, making their minds dwell and be more susceptible to violence and radicalism. When a group arises and promises freedom at the times of persecution, everyone will be siding with them no matter how evil their actions get. The Germans supported Hitler, so is every German needs to be killed? the Palestinians voted for Hamas, so every Palestinian needs to be bombed? NO, THEY DO NOT, most of these people are politicly inactive people who are easy to move around like cattle, especially during times like this. The only ones to blames are the Leaders and their close workers. Not the average rando who is in Favor of them over other potential. candidates. Let's not forget that Asgore himself arrived at this terrible philosophy after going through a whole war, losing, getting trapped, seeing hope with adopting Chara, only for both Chara and His son Asriel brutally dying due a misunderstanding between them and Humans and having his wife leave him. So, if you claim Ceroba is worthy of mercy due to her traumatic past leading her to believe that killing and experimenting with the corpse of a child was the only way she could be happy (while making huge mistakes and not following directions of Chujin which led to the whole Kanako ordeal in the first place) then a similar pardon could be done for Asgore... to some extent.
You state that Asgore deliberately waits for children to fall down but this is very disingenuous as the only people who fall down are children. you are framing this as if adults had also fallen but were spared or something.
"What do they expect to gain after the barrier is broken"? although the manner in which they have arrived in this ultimate situation was done through immoral means. It is still possible for both humans and monsters to arrive in some sort of peace treaty, despite the terrible things both sides have done. We can see this being the case in UNDERTALEs True Pacifist ending, in which monster kind successfully integrates with humans.
"We dont know who started it and why" it doesn't necessarily matter who started this war. Wars in general are misunderstandings over a long period of time cultivating into hate and eventually violence. also, by Chujins descriptions regarding the stories of the veterans, the humans were rather incredibly merciless during their battle and humans before clover have arrived to do similar massacres but ultimately failed."
Point Number 2) "monster inherently want to kill clover giving clover full right to commit a genocide" (sorry for the potential strawman) I may be straw manning you on this, but this fits perfectly with my previous point it is a fact that the monsters are led to believe that all humans who enter must die. Mainly due to Asgores policies and beliefs, we know this to be Asgores beliefs as nearly all the robots present within the Steamworks are coded to target humans, and we know that the robots are presented to Asgore before they are implemented within the facility. So, when a monster sees a human, regardless of their previous actions, they will see the human as a potential threat as they are led to believe through generations of stories, tales and even eyewitness testimonies. We know from martlets testimony that monsters are informed from their childhood that humans cannot be trusted and must be killed. now instead of confirming their beliefs, wouldn't it make more sense to shatter those beliefs trough actions of kindness?
Plus, I would like to add that YOU are given the first turn in a battle, not the monsters so your analogy of trying to make peace with someone attacking you is wrong. you portray it as they attack you first then you try to tell them to stop. but that's not exactly what happens. they approach you with the intention of killing but dont actually start until you either try to make peace with them, fight them or run away. And when you are the first one to act and try to make peace. They take it into consideration. even altering some of their attacks and having dialogue to accompany it, eventually sparing you. Now I am not saying that replying to their approach with fighting is immoral. Yes. it is not immoral as it would fall under self-defence. But seeking to find each individual who didn't even approach you. YOU approached THEM is where the problem lies. the excuse that "they would have approached you first and tried to kill you" is not necessarily a valid response.
Point number 3) Clover had to have killed every monster so he could overpower Asgore and punish him for his crimes.
Now this sounds pretty fair on paper. but falls apart once examined. saying that clover had to have killed every monster to be on par with Asgore is a very big stretch in logic. The assumption that clover needs to be level 20 to kill Asgore doesn't make sense. as when clover is level 12 Flowey already comments how you are already powerful enough and dont need to go any further. so, clover could have only killed the monsters that tried to approach him to use their XP to beat Asgore. Also, if that was clovers intention. he would have denied living with martlet on the UG apartments rooftop and progressed to Asgore.
"Clover only tries to kill enemies that attack them" is the point you made. yet you contradict yourself as you tried justifying clovers attempt to find and kill each monster that could POTENTIALLY approach clover.
and the claim that Clover let MO and Marlet and Bunny go is another contradiction. Clover initiates the battle with Marlet when you first encounter her and at that point, she has no motivation to harm you. When you see her again in the dunes Clover pulls out his gun but is only stopped because Martlet tries to talk to him not to do it. Again, clover initiates on someone who doesn't want to kill them yet. And at the very end even Tho at this point martlet genially wants to kill clover it is still clover who instantly pulls out their gun and enters a battle with her.
Also clearing out monsters that are ultimately dangerous falls apart as we see in Undertale, their aggressive mentality falls when they are finally able to leave and integrate within human life. And it is safe to assume that monsters in both Undertale and Undertale yellow have similar mindsets.
The only counter argument to this is that Flowey would be able to become God due to clover killing Asgore but not Flowey.
This may very well completely destroy my argument, but this is only an assumption. If level 1 frisk can kill a 6-soul Flowey it is possible that a level 12 clovers could maybe defeat a 5-soul Flowey "Flowey can just alter saves and stuff and win guarantee" well Flowey does the same with frisk and intentionally reloads the save to mess with them making Flowey lose in the long run, so not entirely.
Clover at the start of the genocide route may have been not truly evil, but we can see his judgement get more and more skewed towards the end of the game.
Point Number 4) "this ending is better when compared to other endings".
Let's ignore flawed pacifist and Neutral here and they are not relevant to this convo.
"A child may have to end their life for a cause that may not work out."
Fair... but we all make sacrifices like that. saying that everyone else dying means you surviving means its good is just very selfish. Also, clover does this willingly. He is still presented with the choice to keep himself alive by hiding.
"We dont exactly know the actions of frisk" that is also a valid argument, but we can completely rule out genocide here as at the end of pacifist we see that your soul is being called upon. meaning either neutral or True pacifist. But you can't base a decision due to the uncertainty of the future. Clover himself acknowledges that his effort may be in vain, but he feels pride in the fact that he MAY have contributed to eventual peace. Also, frisk can just replay the game over and over until a true pacifist is reached. as Flowey nags to player towards that route after the end of each neutral route.
Welp that's all I have got to say...
The most reasonable point you got is point 4 but I dont think it's enough to justify the WHOLE route.
I also would like to add the fact that it is a child who tasks himself to fulfil their purpose and that purpose isn't fully established at the start as we can see his ultimate objective be altered throughout the course of the pacifist route.
Please be calm and collective in my replies ♥♥♥
Peace!
I think your first point is really important. While this is ultimately just a video about a silly video game the subtext of these justifications is similar to the logic used to justify numerous real-world atrocities and we need to be aware of the consequences of this thinking.
@@HumanOnEarth128 are you agreeing with my first point or not i Didint understand
Interesting comment also very long but was worth reading the thing i most question here is that is wrong clover seeking for monsters to kill i feel like clover is justified to do that since these monsters are evil if clovers gives them the chance they will atack him and its not only potentially THEY WILL ATACK HIM 100 of 100 sure of it if he just skips his turn they will try to kill him he might have the first turn but that doesnt change that these monsters have the intend to kill him if giving the chance whatever they do atack or spare or flee they will try to kill him and clover doesnt need to have infinite pacience when his in risk of getting killed and if it wasnt per flowey he would die forever so the monsters are trying to commit murder to a child and clover is doing justice these monsters are a danger that could have killed humans that had fallen before him and now they trying to kill him is understable clover is mad about this and wants to seek revenge every time a monster approaches him trying to kill them it only shows this even more about monsterkind they are fully willing to kill a innocent child they dont care if you are completely pacifist what i mean is that this monsters are all wrong and so clover is justified to seek for them these monsters all are trying to kill him the moment you approach them maybe you approached them but the ones that was willing to kill a child was them maybe you also wanna kill them but is justified because they do too and would kill a innocent child too not only you.
well also separated point would be the justifycation of clover for seeking the true not only asgore did horrible things Axis too Axis brutally killed a child if you see use the tape behind the tree you will realize and the way it talks about what Axis did just shows that he had absolutely no mercy he even tried to hide the proof of what he did to the blue soul and also the blue soul human did nothing wrong NOTHING it wasnt justified dalv atacked the blue soul first and the blue soul answered defending him self hitting him and then escaping just to be found by Axis and brutally blasted his face off like literally destroyed his head a child killed like that by Axis a creation of monsterkind that is a crime and clover must make them pay for what they did they are responsible
@@Afurrythatwilldrinkyourblood. clover is aware that flower prevents him from dying. So he has no real reason to kill the monsters as he knows that he can try again and again until he reaches the best conclusion.
Axis is programmed to murder and is not capable of showing mercy so yes killing axis is justified. But the option to drain his power and de-activate him still stands.
Dalv does try to kill the blue soul and the blue soul acts in self defense but DOESNT KILL dalv. Meaning defending yourself while shoving mercy is still possible
@@Afurrythatwilldrinkyourblood. also as stated by martlet clover having the first move is given to clover by the choice of the monsters
In other words clover is right in the pacifist route but not wrong in the genocide route.
There's a question of if power obligates mercy even at the cost of sacrifice. Such a notion is morally disgusting.
Dresden was justified.
in defence of genoice clover.
gun goes pow pow
Considering the fact that there was no way out of the underground without fusion of a human with a monster soul or vise versa, and the fact that the battling could be avoided entirely, except the case of Chara reaching lvl 20, wherein they get the ability to initiate the encounter by themselves, something that even Clover could not (and that is also part of a reason why he let Asgore to brandish his weapon before taking Soul out to fire), monsters could've simply played it long, let the humans live underground and pass on peacefully, conserve their bodies, break the barrier, get out, give those 7 proper burial and gratitude, and on that ground try to work things out with the human race. They have chosen violence, destruction and death, and in every genocidal timeline they get exactly what they bargained for.
clover in the title doing some heavy lifting
clover is truly a warrior
We do know that frisk does a neutral or pacifist run because they call for help in the end
Asgore got master-sparked.
Yes and no
From a normal standpoint
Monsters even in undertale have a bad habit of jumping you even if they seem oblivious to what they are doing they are chaotic and only toriel and papyrus will let you go if they hurt you too much
Other monsters will go ahead and kill you
So its kinda on then for attacking him first and why he adopts the view that they are all just like asgore or that they all have killed some of the kids
But also no
Because humans did start the conflict in the war
They were terrified because monsters were a threat to them even though they used to get along and they genocided them and locked the survivors underground for eternity never to see the beautiful sun again
We know asgore wasnt pure evil back in the day as he and toriel even let a human into their underground family and even other monsters tell it like a tale like they were one of them
Asgore began his quest after the humans killed both his human kid and his biological kid for literally no reason because they were being racist and immediately thought asriel carrying the humans body meant he had killed them and didnt even give him time to explain he probably tried too but they refused to listen because they feared monsters
They have been underground for so long they have become willing to kill anyone who comes down there so they can just get out before they eventually run outta stuff and die or go mad
You might say
But there children!
Well its very likely the humans also murdered their children for literally no reason even in real life humans have been shown capable of massacring families including the kids in wars just because there dick's their own race!
They would have no objection to exterminating them saying its for the best to justify it
Everytime a human has fallen it's been a kid are the monsters just supposed to go
Thats ok! Ill just wait another century or so or possibly an eternity and hope to god we get lucky enough for 6 human adults *who arnt as stupid* to conveniently fall in the hole*
The only one at complete blame is asgore
The other monsters did not know how he only needed one
Asgore just told them he needed 7
The monsters were treated far worse like animals and were even at a disadvantage like the American army vs the natural natuves of america in power and numbers
The monsters were just fucked by life
You cant be too mad at the monsters for snapping and not caring anymore when the humans refused to show them the same compassion and the chances of getting 7 adult human souls is just astronomically low
Clover is justified in defending himself though and he has no reason not to adopt the view that they are all guilty when they all are attacking him and treating him bad when they attacked first in most of the cases
So yes and no
someone has to remind the underground that it was mankind that was created in god's image
Those monsters ain't got no Emperor on 'em
Asgore was holding back against frisk not clover also clover never tried against asgore
Yeah, it indeed seems like in most routes Clover really just wants to live with Toriel or Marlet and that it is only Flowey and the Player pushing Clover that causes them to take more violent paths.
i'm pretty sure its not the player pushing clover to do the more violent path its more him doing what he think is right serving justice thats why he leveled up when axis told clover he killed a human @@HumanOnEarth128
This is a very intriguing video. I fully intend on making a response video to this explaining why I disagree with a lot of your points here Gay Walter White & why I think that Clover is still guilty.
My canon ending, pacifist Clover going to Asgore, and Clover's friend do the same thing about the boat and his equip.
So, Ceroba is dead.
@@Idazmi7 nope, Clover goes to Asgore after sparing Ceroba.
Like, instead of Ceroba it's Asgore taking Clover's soul.
But the things play out the same, Clover gives the hat and gun to his friends, but he goes to Asgore to end the journey.
Feels more honest (a bit more hurtful to Clover though) that Asgore takes the soul imo
@@sorma007
I think I like your True Pacifist ending better than the one we got. Good job. I still think Clover would try to Fight Asgore, though.
@@Idazmi7 Thanks, but fighting Asgore would a bit controversial on what Clover wanted to do for the monsters. But I would like to think too that Clover wanted to find another solution instead of giving up, but Asgore clearly doesn't want to listen to Clover, but surely feeling really guilty of killing an innocent child
@@sorma007
You're too early in the timeline, bub. Asgore killed six before Frisk. Sometimes you don't get a happy ending.
There is NO way you named your channel gay walter white AAAAAAAAAAA
I literally had no idea what to name it
Undertale yellow genocide is significantly different even if it’s the same, the YOU in undertale didn’t really have a reason apart from an undeniable sensation and curiosity for what your into which makes your actions worse, where as clover went into this as the executioner and deeming monsters guilty and martlet challenges clovers true motives. Finding any reason to justify his killing which is disgusting though only a bit better than frisk
Lore of Undertale Yellow - In defence of Genocide Clover momentum 100
Guys remember clover is america
My Response to this video:
Humans literally started the war out of fear despite there not being any cases of monsters killing humans for their souls beforehand. (If there was a case of a monster killing Humans for their soul power, then that Monster most likely would have easily been able to become a god because Asriel with only one human soul is described to have been able wipe out all of the humans that were attacking them in the village with ease.) A huge amount of the monster population was killed in the war. And Asriel was killed purely out of fear despite him being passive. I think its fair for monsters to be kind of hateful towards humans for all of these things because humans put them all through hell because of their own fear rather than any actual solid reasons. (Source: Waterfall Glyphs and the monsters that describe Asriel and Chara's backstory during the end of UT)
Monsters souls are canonically made of love (source: UT Snowdin Library and also Flowey's entire backstory). None of them are really naturally evil and can be pretty easily reasoned with and spared in a battle except for some bosses. Clover also has literal time travel on their side and can retry battles as much as they need to in order to solve everything peacefully. The fact that they're mostly all so easy to peacefully resolve things with them combined with the fact that starting a genocide route basically requires you to go out of your way to specifically hunt down EVERY monster and the fact you have time travel makes the whole self defense excuse fall apart entirely for me IMO. Ultimately Clover is the one who is more powerful in these situations, and I think that it is their responsibility to try to end things in a somewhat peaceful manner.
Also regarding Martlet, Clover never needs to kill her but tries to do so 3 seperate times (snowdin, the dunes, UG Apartments). Clover never needs to do this at all, especially at the end of the game when they could have just gone to Asgore but they specifically went out of their way to enact their "Justice" upon her. Clover also never needs to kill Starlo either but kills him anyways.
Regarding the Aftermath of the genocide route, I think death is actually a more pleasant alternative for Clover honestly. Clover becomes Level 20 at the end of the geno route and this has caused negative personality changes for them (Extremely impatient and moody and general lack of compassion) and they developed serious violent tendencies while also having the ability to kamehameha anything at any given moment. Clover is very unlikely to actually have a good life on the surface because of these things. Clover might have the ability to end the world which is definitely not an ability that some random child should have. Clover could also end up being dangerous to those around them or those who they think deserve to die for whatever reason whether or not their reasons are justifiable or not.
the reason why he killed starlo is because he asked for a duel which in other words means a fight. I think if starlo never asked for a duel clover would not have killed him because he was shown time and time again not to kill if the monster didn't started it an example of this would be mo instead of killing him we let him go
@@Just-yx6rv Yeah but Clover directly breaks the rules of the duel which is generally just a dick move. And if they didn't do that they would have learned that Starlo never actually planned on killing them he just wanted to feel cool. Starlo never needed to die
Exactly lol, the humans in this section seem to support a pointless war
@@deesnyder8201 that is a dick move, but ig clover didn't care. not trying to justify their actions, btw, but they either heard the word "FIGHT!" (love screwing with their head ofc) or just felt very angry that starlo's playing all fun cowboys with them and thought of the 5 other fallen kids as they killed starlo. i'm sure they thought of those kids the entire time during the genocide route.
honestly, i understand where you're coming from, but clover has no way of knowing any background info you mentioned here. they only have an outsider's perspective, and last i checked, they don't even know much, if anything about chara and asriel, causing them to feel justified in their actions. also, LOVE. must i explain myself further?
i do agree with you on how death is a better alternative for clover, though (plus, although the fallen kids must have been mentally screwed over by the time they were revived, they likely _were_ revived by the end of true pacifist, seeing as how all other monsters were too [my personal headcanon is that clover and the other 5 kids were stuck in the coffins for a while until someone (hopefully) got out and helped everyone else out as well, lol]).
true pacifist is definitely still a shitty ending though, and only enables the monsters, all the way. at the very least, clover should've tried to help the fallen kids after them, by making the event more public or something. my personal headcanon for the ending instead is that clover did all the stuff in true pacifist ending, but instead of voluntarily giving up their soul, they went to confront asgore and talk some sense into him, maybe for the sake of the eighth fallen over everything else.
why is audio only in left ear
My left ear now is in defence of Clover, my right ear however, didn't hear it
i will not consider any monster capable of killing you
Papyrus can't, Toriel seems to be careful not to
But all other, would kill you
why is this more in my left ear than my right ear
Ngl the people who try to justify geno are either illiterate or just hate Undertale, every excuse is disproven by simple media literacy.
“Self defense”
You are hunting down every monster in the area with the intent of wiping out them all, that’s not self defense, that’s just murder. You also start a fight with Martlet and pull out a gun on Mo (and no, Clover did not the Martlet was a part of the Royal Guard, they didn’t even know what the Royal Guard was)
“Monsters wanted to kill humans”
Are you really trying to say Martlet, Sweet Corn, Dalv, Toriel, and everyone wanted to kill humanity? Also most monsters don’t even know they’re harming you, bullet patterns are how they express themselves
“Asgore wanted war”
I think anyone who even slightly understands Asgore knows he didn’t actually want war,he was just angry after the humans took his children from him, he felt horrible after killing 6 kids, how would he want an actual war? The most he would do is scare the humans off. Also using someone else’s crimes to justify yours is still crime.
RIP 100 monsters that got Kanakilled
This is not in any way justified. If Clover just went after Asgore and not several innocents, only aggressors, THEN I'd understand.
Clover just slaughters countless innocents, most that probably had nothing to do with the kills.
If there's one or two bad apples, you don't chop down the entire fucking tree, their actions are completely unjustifiable.
And you know what? If Clover was just out for relentless revenge, and that was like, actually stated, I wouldn't mind, but then they have them do stupid shit like let Martlet and Axis go for a while, and that doesn't make me go "oooh they're just going after agressors 🥺" it makes me think they're FUCKING STUPID for not just KILLING them, and letting them run off to get stronger and have bullshit boss fights.
And you can't even SAY that they weren't aggressors because they ATTACKED THEM BEFOREHAND, but Clover lets them go anyways for no damn reason instead of just shooting them to death immediately.
You got monsters like fucking Penilla, who just wants to draw, Dunebud, who just wants to play, and SWEET CORN, who just wanted to spread JOY, and what does Clover do? Kill them without a second thought.
But no, a fucking bird that tries to kill them? Nah, they GOTTA let her go, because she's the devs favori-I MEAN because she just said to stop fighting.
You cannot ever convince me that Clover is justifed for what they did to EVERYONE just because of the actions of a FEW people, do you not hear how fucked up that sounds to say?
And what's worse is that the monsters just treat Clover like a normal ass human, despite how INHUMANE it is to do this, if they just saw Clover as some inhuman demon like CANON Undertale did with its genocide route, and called out how Clover just wants revenge, and not justice at all, that would have made way more sense.
There is no defense to be made, Clover going after EVERYONE is unforgivable, unjustifiable, this is very obviously WORSE than just a few monsters killing a few humans out of NECESSITY.
And I know Clover probably didn't know why the monsters did this but even if they DID or didn't, that doesn't mean they get to KILL countless bystanders.
killing honorably isn't really a justification, and neither is searching for a fight. If you look for a fight because "If they attack you, you are justified to kill them", that's pretty much you either attacking them (which you probably do, you are the one with first turn most of the time) or provoking them to attack you.
Yeah, that was my big complaint with this idea (besides the fact that it ignores saving which massively changes the morality of this situation due to the ability to revive from death).
never watched the actual video, i just read the comments (since i can't listen to it rn), but according to other comments, clover doesn't attack non-hostile monsters like frisk does in their respective genocide routes. frisk tries to attack monster kid at one point while clover only attacks those who start an encounter.
and while i understand the point that some monsters (especially ones from the ruins) just communicate through their attacks in encounters, please understand that clover is a kid who DOESN'T KNOW THIS. not to mention, love is a corrupting quality, causing them to further disconnect from any empathy they may have for the people they kill (which is likely not a lot, as clover doesn't know much, if anything, about asriel and chara, and only know these monsters cruelly killed 5 innocent children and will kill them too). i understand and agree with your complaints surrounding the wording of this, though.
Wonderful vid! But please fix that audio! 😅
Humanity! F:Dk yeah!
so true!!!!!
I would love to see an fake asgore account to just comment "fuck you" that would be hilarious lmao
Nevertheless great video!
undyne would be more fitting, as we've seen how asgore acts around genocidal human children (surprisingly more hospitable compared to actually innocent kids, smh [js like the american school system fr-]).
I think the big hole in this theory is that thanks to Flowey's power clover is basically immortal. Therefore any argument revoling around self-defense doesn't really make any sense. With Clover's power, they have the chance to talk down almost every monster without having to worry about death and thus change the underground for the better long term. Ultimately things are imperfect in any ending, but Clover is setting an example of mercy in pacfist that monsters will remember. However, we don't see the impact of this due to Clover being in different regions of the underground than Frisk.
Furthermore, Clover in Pacfist gives monsters a chance to reevaluate their ways and grow as beings rather than simply punishing them for being fearful of humans, a fear that genocide Clover will only reinforce.
Furthermore, Undertale's neutral endings indicate that if Asgore dies Undyne takes over and is even more anti-human than Asgore combine that fact with a recent massacre, and the chance for long-term peace is slim. Therefore Clover should use their power to set the best example possible. Also killing Flowey makes the true pacifist ending in Undertale (arguably the best ending for humans and monsters) impossible.
Furthermore, even if Clover was at risk of dying they could still choose to flee rather than fight most enemies
Not only that, but I do believe that in the genocide route, Clover is still seeking out enemies they stay in the same space for a long time knowing enemies will fight them. They are picking fights and teaching other monsters that humans are dangerous. We see this in Zenith Marlet who admits that's given up her belief in the goodness of humans and Asgore who before his death seems to believe that war with humans is more necessary than he realized thus Clover's rampage has ensured a greater slaughter.
Besides the monsters only killed five humans in contrast to the dozens of lives Clover ended
In the end, I also think this argument mirrors real arguments used by governments to justify the massive slaughter of perceived enemies something that we know is unjust.
That is not true because unlike Frisk... Clover literally DOES die no matter what they do no matter the route, most of these in fact due to slightly challenging Flowey who is the provider of the power you say keep them alive, but in reality only makes them a puppet to Flowey since this power completely depends on him and what he wants to do.
Clover in pacifist doesnt make the monsters reevaluate ANYTHING, in fact they only reward the monsters by being another cog in a machine that was unecessary and evil by nature, if Clover did want to make them reevaluate they would either have tried to kill Asgore or perhaps even destroying their own soul to send a message.
I am NOT going to talk about real world issues completely unrelated on a frickin Undertale discussion. No way. Clover is not an government trying to justify its atrocities, Clover is an kid pissed at an kingdom for killing children with an false sense of victimhood trapped in a cycle where they die no matter what, not comparable, as in a survival standpoint Clover is an an single kid in a place that WILL kill them.
The argument that all monsters attack Clover first, and therefore Clover is justified in fighting back is actually not true in a vengence route run. Clover will attack Martlet, dispite Martlet showing no hostility, but instead concern for their safety. She even allows Clover to get 4 hits in before she starts fighting back (unless you apologise first). You could argue, I suppose, that Martlet makes an implicit statement of hostility towards humanity by joining the royal guard, but even in the fight, she outright states that she believes not all humans are bad (which may be why Clover shows her mercy in the end).
In the end, I think I can empathize with Clover, even though I would not defend their actions. Which is way more than I can say about Undertale's protagonist, whos actions make no sense whatsoever during a genocide run.
In defense of my left ear...
Monsters couldn't have started the war. The reason it all begun in the first place was humanity finding out that if a monster were to absorb a human soul, it would easily grant them the power to just collect more within a short amount of time before becoming god. With that discovery and fear, humans wage war on monsterkind.
And worst of all, not a single human soul was taken or even absorbed.
Taking that into consideration, monsters had the power to win the war effortlessly. Yet.. they did not..?
Such a turn of events can only mean 2 things.
Monsters had yet no prior knowledge of such a thing as "absorbing souls for power" also meaning that the humans could have lied about their reasoning behind war.
OR that they already were fully aware about that, yet despite it all still didn't commit to such faulty actions, furthermore showing how kind the race truly is.
All of this info is found ingame in Waterfall.
they were 'kind' during the war in this respect (but definitely should not have been, i agree with you there), yet they took it all back when asriel was killed (which, i get it was fuelled by emotions, but still makes no effing sense; they should've known it'd look really bad to the humans to see this random eldritch being holding a dead child?). also, ONLY BOSS MONSTERS CAN ABSORB HUMAN SOULS, meaning only toriel and asgore were capable of this.
anyway, there are some plot holes there, but it doesn't change the fact that these grown ass adults were approaching and killing kids. for some of them, it was actually a matter of communication (mainly ruins monsters), which i totally understand, but remember, these kids only had outsiders perspectives. they didn't know this, and all they understood was that these creatures, who were apparently 'appropriately' (their words not mine) known as monsters wanted them dead.
in addition to clover's slaughter of like half of monsterkind, other kids before clover likely did not have a flowey around to keep them alive (or at least, this is the take i'm going with until we have undertale green, purple, blue, etc...). this suddenly justifies integrity's massacre even further than clover's already was (unless they attacked random defenseless monsters minding their own business like frisk did with monster kid, that is).
i get your point: humans started the war. humans trapped monsters underground. humans killed asriel (but regarding this last point, they just saw a random eldritch being holding a dead child). but their innocent children do not deserve the brunt of the propaganda asgore fed monsterkind (i'm not actually an asgore hater and can empathize with him in that i'm willing to let him put his murders behind, but he still wronged those (usually) innocent children. he's morally grey like flowey in this respect though).
Yo guys are insane. You are literally blaming Gunhat for mass murder even tho Player is the one in control and Cliver never chose to be mass murderer. It reminds me of Chara. Half of fandom blames Chara in everything even tho Player controls everything
Well how about he just stop doing what we tell him to? Not like he can't.
I get that. You gotta tie up that one "omg so meta" theory everywhere, but sometimes you gotta remember that player is not the manipulator, but just a witness of the events in game. Otherwise, you might stretch it even further and proclaim that Frisk is a zombie, who'se body Chara, Ink Sans, Error Sans, Player, Goku and Gaster share between each other.
Does that make sense to you? For me, it makes as much sense as NarraChara theory, while devaluating Frisk as a character even more.
2:37 actually the humans started the war due to fear of monsters absorbing their souls
...which means Monsters were absorbing souls. 😒
@@Idazmi7except that wasn’t happening as there were no deaths on the human side throughout the war
@@charismaentertainer1657
Then how did the humans know monsters have the ability to steal souls? Also, thanks to Asgore there have been 6 deaths of children.
@@Idazmi7 because it’s a scenario that’s happened long beforehand? Monsters have absorbed humans souls and humans have absorbed boss monster souls. During this peace humans were scared that it could happen again since it was more likely to get a human then a boss monster since they’re rare. They conclud that getting rid of them was the best solution despite the monsters not implying they have any plans to have this happen again, and would more likely fight against someone who’d attempt it.
@@charismaentertainer1657
So the humans were justified.
Defense
american😂
clover
Something i think people overlook because we are seeing the stroy in the pov of the mosters that if clover didnt kill the monsters asgore wouldve killed 2 children broke the barrier AND KILL ALL OF HUMANITY, if some monsters are incocent so do at least some humans, clover isnt bad because this isnt about being bad this is about survival if humans dont fight back the mosters wouldve killed them ALL
Cool video but i hear you only in the left side of my headphones
I am the 69th like on this video.
Ofc its gay walter white channel speaking about defending a genocide of a species
The comment is a joke just sayin
the comments in this video are absolutely horrendous i think uty fans don't have any media literacy
“nooooooo why would le monsters kill the humans for their souls to break the barrier they deserve to be killed even though humans put them in this position!11!!😡😡😢😢”
@marzmaybe they're the ones who lost the war to humans who are 100% dead by the events of undertale (you can see this with how the humans in the war are still using their primitive ass weapons) and monsters still think they're justified in killing children that fall into their kingdom because of that. Clover also only ever attacks the monsters who try to attack him and kill him, and he will not attempt to kill monsters who don't, only threaten them (look at mo in the steamworks). Clover was 100% in the right to do what he did after realizing the extent the monsters did to gather their precious human souls, and no matter how much regret asgore feels about doing it, he still did it, and intended to do it to frisk too until frisk beat him to an inch of his life.