I think one thing people overlook when they see that 10-minute Affix a Talisman activity is that *the talismans stay on indefinitely.* If you don't have the Quick Fix skill feat or are a certified Talisman Dabbler, the intention is not that you try to affix a bunch of talismans between every combat, or god forbid that you do it *in combat.* You're meant to Affix all your talismans in the morning and maybe replace one in-between encounters. Spend some minutes while the Wizard is prepping their spells to affix a talisman to each of your armor and to your martials' weapons. Then use them when the situations come up. Don't just assume that breakfast prep time is only for the casters' benefits in 2e. If you don't use the talisman that day? Oh well - it's still on for the next day and you can get going a bit faster. Want to swap a talisman out? It's not destroyed if you use the activity to remove a talisman, so go ahead. Are people Refocusing and Treating Wounds between combats? Affix a Talisman then while you've got nothing better to do. Do *you* also need to Refocus? Affixing a Talisman isn't exactly strenuous, so it can (and should imo) be argued that you can do it alongside your Refocusing activity for basically every class. I do think most of the proficiency requirements are kinda lame and don't help their case, though. At the very most they should only ever require Trained proficiency in anything.
I really wish Trick Magic Item didn’t cost an entire action in addition to whatever actions you need to activate the item normally. That sharply curtails its utility. In fact, that actually prevents the use case you mention! You can’t use the three-action version of Heal with Trick Magic Item. You don’t have enough actions in your turn.
Which is why I was so frustrated with the Scroll Trickster Archetype. The feat that lets you trick magic item for free is bundled into the draw action rather then the cast action so you still can't use 3-action scrolls.
Huh! That's weird that it MUST be the current turn, why not allow it to just be "If your next action is to..." kind of thing? Then it would roll over to the next turn allowing you to use three action items! That doesn't seem to break the game at all! Or to make it slightly harder to do, make being able to use the item like normal "Until the end of your NEXT turn" for a critical success! Then it's still possible but it's hard to do, and it probably SHOULD be hard to use three action magic items!
@@brutusthecat6044 Well, even if you could trick for free you still need to draw the scroll so you STILL wouldn't be able to cast a 3 action spell on the same turn as you drew it. The feat allows you to draw and trick in one action. I created a feat long ago when I saw trick magic item called. Risky Trick. It is a skill feat that is higher level that requires Trick Magic item, and Master in one of the 4 skills. This allows you to trick as a free action, however if you do any failure become a critical failure instead. That is it, so you can only get a success or critical failure. This means you gambled, and if you succeed it REALLY pays off since you have 3 full actions to use. Quick edit: I have homebrewed many feats and archetypes for my players and roommate whom GM for Pathfinder 2e. I love creating new things. My big thing is I always design inclusively not exclusively. In other words I never try to remove stuff, rules or anything. I create new things to improve stuff I think is underwhelming or plain bad (crafting rules).
@@MrReaperHand you are right but, no one can draw and cast a 3 action scroll on the same turn. With Skim Scroll being bundled into the draw action, sure you can now cast 2 action scrolls the turn you draw them, but you can split those actions across 2 turns to give yourself access to 3 action scrolls. Edit: the only way around this is to dip into the Thaumaturge Archetype and take their level 1 Scroll Mastery feat, then switch back to trickster for the daily spells.
One of the biggest issues with consumables over their over sized cost, is remembering you have them and to use them! The problem with niche use items is remembering you have them, because you don't use them often!
As many others have said, those skill prerequisites are really restrictive. At those price points, one time use for a extremely niche use is hard to justify the meta attention of figuring out which you want to use and who in the party should have them. Once per day or once until you do something specific to recharge them and *maybe* I'd spend the time/energy on bothering with them.
Oooooh, as a self described potion enthusiast and known at my tables for being "the consumable guy", I have some VERY strong stances on consumables! For starters; you touched on this, but you didn't really push it home; consumables provide MASSIVE action economy benefits. Talismans are often free actions or reactions, which is nice; but another thing thats forgotten is that potions typically provide the same benefit as an on level spell for one action. Some might argue that it's actually two, because you need to draw it first, but there's many ways you can "cheat" this: -starting combat with a potion in hand. My alchemist does this ALL the time; effectively lets me use two items turn one. This is especially nice on potions of quickness; level 3 haste is terrible, since you need 2 turns for it to even break even; 3 of you self target. With the potion; hasting an adjacent ally pays itself automatically if they delay for you to buff them, and pays itself off after two turns if you self buff; which is a LOT better. -Valet Familiar lets you turn one action into two by handing you a consumable, then using it, then throwing another in hand; possibly allowing you to drink two potions in on turn, or simply having another item ready for a future turn -Gloves of Storing or Retrieval Prisms; this is essential getting one quickened spell per battle; truly, incredibly good; you're basically buying a midlevel feat for pocket change with the prism Additionally, they also let you "carry over" actions. Like I've already said, potions and elixirs provide spell level effects; so on one turn, I could, say, cast and draw and item, then next turn cast again and use the item; creating 3 two action spells worth of effects over 2 turns; which you otherwise cannot normally do at all without Quicken Casting, and thats 1/day Consumables also often punch above their weight class in terms of the effects they produce; like the potion of disguise lasts for much longer than humanoid form, AND has more freedom as to what you can turn into! Theres so many good things about consumables that as long as you are willing to put in just minor levels of investment into your playstyle and gear to facilitate their use; will allow you to be much better than if you were just to sell then in hopes that maybe it'll get you that rune slightly faster
My biggest issue with Talismans is the activation requirements. They are designed to make someone who can already do something, be able to do it a little better. A Champion who is afraid of falling off a ledge that can't use a Savior Spike until 9th level because reflex is his weakest save. These aren't one use items to shore up weaknesses rather they help mitigate a bad roll of something that you are already good at.
BTW the trigger for Vanishing Coin is "Trigger You attempt a Stealth check for initiative, but you haven't rolled yet; Requirements You are a master in Stealth" so cannot be used in middle of combat which vastly limits when and who can use it.
I've always wanted to like talismans. I love the concept of them. But they suffer from a lot of issues for me. 1) The use cases are often too niche. There are situations where, if you can remember you have it, and if you have the right one equipped, and if that situation arises, then they would totally be worth expending that money on. But that's a lot of ifs. Too many. 2) Many of the talismans that have enough impact on a situation important enough or common enough to be noteworthy are also gated behind having a skill proficiency... and hilariously enough, often a skill proficiency that if you have that proficiency, you probably don't need that talisman! 3) I over analyze things to an extreme, and know that ultimately, whether I use a talisman or not is very very unlikely to change the overall outcome of a situation. It could. But its highly unlikely to. Will someone die? Will there be a lasting consequence if I don't use it? That chance is incredibly remote. And as a result of all of these things... 4) It's not worth the brain space. There are so many things my brain can be focusing on in this game already. By level 10 I'm struggling to remember all of the feats I have, possible skill uses I have, permanent item effects I have, spells I have... Unless a consumable item is going to have a very common and/or impactful use-case, I am not going to remember it. And so I am much better off mulching it in to currency that I can spend on an item that is going to have a more common use-case and be more impactful, and therefore easier to remember, or just a flat permanent bonus I can write down somewhere and wont have to think about anymore. I kind of hoped that talismans would basically be spell scrolls for martials. That they would have more flashy and explosive effects inside them to be unleashed in a pinch or when you want to go all-out on the BBEG. Something like "When you successfully strike an enemy in melee, you can use your reaction to cause the talisman to burst and cause a shockwave of force, dealing 3d6 force damage to all other creatures within 10ft of the target. You are immune to this damage." Now THAT I would remember. That's freaking cool. A simple and common use-case. And sure, maybe that would start feeling like an obvious choice or a must-have item but... that's why it costs gold.
Number 3.) is the main reason we sell them. There are so rarely situations where they are useful that we usually have forgotten they exist if we finally come in the right situation
I think one thing that makes people hesitant to use talismans is that it takes 10 minutes to equip one (unless you take a feat and invest a lot in crafting or archetypes) and you can have a single one equipped per weapon/armor piece.
For me it's their very situational nature. It looks great from the GM's perspective, because we usually know what encounters can happen, but the players have no idea, so they read "X gold for a thing that only one or two characters can use and might let them knock something prone once, maybe" and they go "we sell it". xD Another thing that I don't love about talismans is that they tend to replicate skill feats, which usually the players have in abundance and can't even bother remember that they have them to use them, let alone a "consumable skill feat"
@@lorenzovaletti4951 Yeah i think for the consummable skill feat ones the issue is that they are so niche you easily forget them. For *some* automation can help if it's some sort of circumstance bonus on specific rolls. The ones that replicate class feats or are very unique are easier to remember, but I think it's also a case of using them more often.
Talismans DON'T suck. ADDITION: I see a good point in some comments. A NUMBER of talismans have skill proficiency requirements, the effect of which is "most of the party can't use it, and the one who can use it doesn't need it." The "standing" coin requires being an expert in Acrobatics, might be benefiting only the player who is taking Kip Up at 7th or 8th level. The Bronze Bull Pendant is different, in that it gives a status bonus to Shove... ... And so a HOUSE RULE I'm open to is removing the proficiency requirements for talismans. I can see what they were going for, but it devalues talismans more than I think the game needs. CORRECTIONS: 1. My example of the barbarian using 3-action heal with Trick Magic Item doesn't work because of the +1 action cost involved with that feat. Crikey! 2. Vanishing Coin only works when rolling initiative. So it lets you be invisible up to and through your first turn... which can be for a variety of reasons!
Why not make a pathfinder 2e books for player options video. I have looked at paizo and their website and i have no clue what books offer player options and which ones are for dms and would love a vieeo explaining that and which books are worth buying for what reason in your opinion
Talismans are mostly sold at my tables, because either people cannot use it, or don't need it... So it's requirements are pretty much the reason to sell instead of hoarding .
At our table we use automatic bonus progression all the time. It leaves only fun and interesting things in loot and frees gold economy for our parties. I wholeheartedly believe that abp is superior to basic system in every way.
The problem I've had with a lot of consumables is they are often too situational. Much like your examples of Prone, swimming, invisible enemy, and etc. So if you rarely get knocked prone, have not encountered any swimming encounters, simply powered through or had a party member with ability to negate invisibility, and so on then the items seem kinda pointless where having the gold to get something else feels better. There are lots of other magic items besides the weapon/armor boosting ones. Getting the better kits that give +1 bonuses on skill checks are nice to have. Even things like Demon mask that gives +1 intimidation for characters who like to demoralize a lot is handy to have which give boost or daily uses like the healers gloves which are great for any character as it's a touch heal that doesn't require character to be able to cast like scrolls/wands do. That said I do think some consumables are useful. Scrolls are really handy to have for utility spells you might use once in a while but don't want to waste a daily slot on, like Comprehend Languages. Also having some additional healing scrolls for emergencies is nice, some might be tempted by the Wand because it's permanent but wand is once per day and if you need need it a couple times then having multiple scrolls is better than one wand. You can get like 10-15 scrolls for the price of a wand depending on the level. And odds are you won't be needing that many heals so the low level wand will quickly fall out of usefulness and can be hard to keep upgrading the wand tier. But a few scrolls for a party without much healing can help in a pinch. When it comes to Talismans though I think the new Spellhearts which use up the Talisman slot have more usefulness. I mean looking at some of the later Talisman effects as the price goes up, spend 100 gp to make someone flat footed for ONE ROUND, seems a bit pricey. There are quite a few that sound interesting but if it never comes up in your campaign and with 1 slot it means you have to be careful with what you pick or you'll end up with a Talisman you never use just sitting on armor/weapon. Plus it can be hard to tell if that little bit extra now is really needed or save for later. It's the same reason people end up in video games with dozens of consumables as fear of needing them later comes up. Personally I find there are a lot of magic items that give daily uses of abilities that are similar or better than consumables. Like there is level 7 Boots of Bounding for 340 gp and give you +5 speed. Healers Gloves 80 gp for Daily restoring 2d6+7 Hit Points to adj creature, Broach of shielding 30 gp and automatically absorbs 30 Magic Missile bolts, Lifting Belt 80 gp +1 Athletics and increase bulk carrying +1, Ring of Ram 220 gp onces per minute DC22 attack 2/4/6 D6 depending on 1-3 action activate(not spell), Ring of Energy Resistance 245gp +5 resistance (pick energy type), Sleeves of Storage 100gp can hold 5 Bulk each(10 total) and only require 1 action and 1 free hand to use so great for alchemist and so many more great items. With all the various utility permanent magic out there it's easy to find interesting things that have either consistent effects or repeatable uses. As such I feel a lot of consumables need a boost because there are so many items the party would rather have. In most cases if I'm gonna be forking over that much cash I want a big bang for my buck. And the few consumables that are good at any level are handy later when cash is easy to get and their price is a drop in the bucket but those are few and far between.
I think one part of talismans that - while balance-wise fairly important - contributes to their lack of use is the training requirements. For example, with the Copper Coin, your caster would require Expert Acrobatics to actually use it. For casters this can be hard to justify unless you happen to utilize flight often with Maneuver in Flight actions. It certainly isn't an impossibility, but an additional cost. Furthermore, if you are acquiring Expert Acrobatics at the time this item would be on-level, you aren't far from acquiring the Kip-Up skill feat which nullifies the item entirely. This results in a fairly narrow use-case for characters that specialize in Acrobatics but are on-level, and other characters who aren't specializing but happened to get to Expert Acrobatics for whatever external reason.
The amount of times our party got a talisman and the reaction was "this would be helpful for everyone except the only guy that can use it" is entirely too high.
Something I do with a house rule is take that "you can wear a tool set up to 2 bulk" and change that to being able to wear up to 2 bulk of anything that's not a weapon. I find players are more willing to quickly draw consumables for use (even when using them on fellow PCs) when there isn't an action tax to first pull it out. My players even develop strategies around that, letting the backline act as "tanks" by shoving as many healing potions and other consumables for the frontliners who are trying to deal damage. It helps add flexibility to player roles in the moment by redefining who is being offense and who is being defense, and redefining how to fulfill those roles. Quick Bomber is still useful though, since now it frees up more of your 2 Bulk of Worn stuff, which can be huge.
@@guestGoob I'm not going say! People will have to wait until he gets to the video! Plus I COULD be wrong and there might be other videos that I haven't seen criticizing Pathfinder, or Paizo in general! I WILL say that one of them, I'm fairly confident that this is going to be one of them, is actually the reason I started looking into Pathfinder 2e! I watched the original video and of course YT said "HEY! We think you'll like these too" at first I didn't care but I kept seeing more and more so I eventually caved and watched most of them, and I STILL watch most of those channels to this day!
I’ve had players devalue one shot items as well, but occasionally they’ve been used to significant effect to give big boosts in combat that saved them. The nice part about consumables is that they’re modular, don’t have the same limits that other permanent items have like requiring potency levels, investment etc.
This is why I like features that grant free consumables each day, investegator, alchemist, thaumaturge (scrolls/talismans), ranger (traps), Kobolds, Hobgoblins, scroll trickster archetype, talisman dabbler, and lastly trap master all come to mind. They allow remove some of the financial commitment of using consumables. I really just want to make a character that embodies "random bullshit gooo!"
About the spellstrike ammunitions, technically another caster can activate it and a martial can have readied an action to fire an arrow handed to them toward and ennemy. As long as it all happens during the turn the arrow is activated. So, wizards if you're tired of missing your Disintegrate attack roll, hand over an arrow to your fighter buddy.
Sadly I don't think that works. From the rules for Magical Ammunition: "Once you activate the ammunition, you must shoot it before the end of your turn. "
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Well yes, since it is shot as a reaction (if you use your last action to hand it over to the martial who readied their action to shoot an arrow handed to them) it is fired before the end of your turn, isn't it ?
Before even viewing this video I'd like to say: THEY DON'T SUCK!" A lot of them a situational that when comes up really saves your ass or help you do a bit more to give you the advantage in a fight. Crying angel talisman: prevents a crit fail on administer fist aid. This can be crucial when you need to pick someone up who has dying 2. Potency crystal: are amazing for level 1-3 to hit more and hit harder. It's basically one time magic weapon. Great for boss battles or when a fight turns out harder than expected. Jade cat:is great all the way up to level 20. Reducing fall by 20 feet grants you a lot more mobility during a fight I'm a vertical map Blood seeker beak: is amazing for rogues good for everyone else. Adding persistent damage is something you should always seek to do in a fight. It's a bit of extra damage that can go a long way. 1d4 extra damage is just flat out good. Talismans that give fighter feats: many weapon talisman grants you a fighter feats. This simply helps expand your option in combat, and you can never go wrong with picking at least one up. Dragon one arrowhead: this is good for melee people absolutely great for a two handed or dual weapon melee user. Grants you a 20 foot range to chuck your weapon with the full force of it's damage then it returns to your hand. This can use to reach an enemy who's just out of range, or strike someone you want to waist actions moving towards you. Fortifying pebble and rhino hide: someone focus on defending the party while taking the brunt of the damage should have a few of these at later levels. Helps your shield and you last longer. I could go on. These are just some of the ones that stand out to me.
Great deep dive video and analysis as always. One comment I have is that there's a discrepancy of view point between GM and players, when it comes to usable treasure. For us GMs it's easy to see the value of things because we know what is going to happen. But, for the players, it's much harder to judge whether something is worth keeping or selling as they have no idea what they will be going up against. They might prefer having currency for the freedom it gives them to go find the right tool when they eventually find out which it is, or relying on much broader use consumables such as spell scrolls, wands, wearable spell-like items and potions. Personally, I wish I could make my games much more varied in non-encounter (non strictly combat) challenges, so that there's more freedom to explore "exotic" items and not rely on the fundamentals every time.
Currently playing a character with the secondary talisman dabbler archetype, so this is a really handy video. I'll be looking really carefully at what I can make and what the party might need. Being able to cover specifics daily might help with this.
I am planning to play a thaumaturge in my upcoming kingmaker campaign and want to double town on talismans (Thaumaturge feat + talisman dabble with FA) because I love the flavour of talismas. I had to click on this video to see what you have to say and now I am intrigued for the preview video :)
It must depend on the group. My group likes to keep consumable because to many times have consumable saved the party of made a challenge easier. And just as many examples where they sold a consumable and later it would have been handy to have.
Automatic Bonus Progression is very good at making people value consumables more by opening up the loot table and treasure value since you don't get item bonuses from magic items anymore and you don't have to save all your money for the runes the math assumes you have at the necessary break points. ABP is standard at all tables with GMs that have tried it that I know.
So you mentioned that parties want to sell their consumable magic items because of their high resell value. Oddly enough, I didn't get that far. As a DM, setting up my first session and reading through prices, I thought "boy, these things are way too expensive!" A d8 healing potion literally costs over 25% of a character's starting wealth. That fear gem you mentioned is 1/3rd the price of a permanent striking rune. That's just way too much IMHO. So I basically slashed the cost of consumables and scrolls by 75%, which, in turn, lowers their resell values as well. Lo and behold, players buy and use consumable items more often...but not so much that it breaks the game or anything.
Correction: If you fall with your hands full, you can't choose to drop stuff. You just fall. There isn't a trigger on drop an item, so you can't do it outside your turn. The Snapleaf talisman is nice because you can't fail, but you do fall (feather fall).
This just isn't true. The Critical Success effect for Grab an Edge states: "You grab the edge or handhold, whether or not you have a hand free, typically by using a suitable held item to catch yourself (catching a battle axe on a ledge, for example). You still take damage from the distance fallen so far, but you treat the fall as though it were 30 feet shorter." This means you can attempt to grab an edge while having both hands full, and in later levels becomes easy to do so. A cliff's Climb DC is 19, which means to crit at grabbing the edge is DC 29. But it's a gamble, because if you spend the reaction and fall to grab the edge you will not have a reaction left for the Talisman
I think something you miss in your cost analysis for striking runes is that players typically want the rune when they hit 4th level rather than at the end of 4th level. This means they'll only have access to the loot from levels 1 to 3, not level 4. the expected currency from level 1 to 3 is 58 gold per player so unless they have remaining gold from character creation they won't be able to afford it without selling something, especially of they've already purchased a potency rune.
I love consumables. Only one of my party members seriously engages with them (outside of wands). But I think as time goes on that will change. Talismans, potions, elixirs, scrolls, and various ammunition used correctly can completely alter a fight. Pathfinder 2e is mostly about having the right tools deployed at the right time. What could be more beneficial than a wider toolkit?
This definitely seemed to miss the main issues with items. Most of it was just "there are many useful items" but the issue comes down to most of the time most items aren't useful. People don't just sell them because they really need that gold. But because I'm their mind the gold is "better than nothing" DMs that use random loot to give or make these consumables available to the players. Oh goody a water breathing potion in a campaign where the biggest body of water was a puddle. In these situations, the items really are just reskined gold to make the loot more immersive. The send issue with items is the added effort required to use them. Most players have a hard time remembering and keeping track of their regular spells and abilities. Let alone remembering an item they picked up 4 months ago irl. The best way to get players to use more items is to give them items to know they will have a use for in the near future. As a dm you should have a pretty good idea of what monsters or hazards are coming up. And the more often you grant your players an item that will help them with those problems the more used to items they will become and eventually they will start seeking out or crafting items they may need on their own. This isn't a pathfinder issue either. Or even one isolated to ttrpgs. Many rpgs out there run into this same issue particularly in the modern day, when developers ensure you can get by without them. There is a lot of initial investment required in pursuing and tracking consumables, and often, there is no major immediate reward. Pushing people away from them.
still feel its way to expensive, any consumable that needs a save or attack roll to succeed has trouble when facing low number of enemies high difficulty fights simply because you have to roll high to hit or the enemy needs only something like a 5 to ignore the effect. in difficult fights with a high number of lower level enemies this effect is watered down because many consumable only affect 1 enemy. talismans suffer especially because most are extremely expensive for the effects they give. now they are useful on characters that create consumables, like a snarecrafter or an alchemist as they can often build a significant amount of them on a daily basis as well as greatly magnify the effect. elixers and scrolls can be awesome, scrolls because they pack good power for a cheap price, elixers because they are generally buffs of decent magnitude and don't require a save or attack roll. but poisons, munitions etc will often suffer from the ..its not useful to use in an easy encounter and its unreliable in a hard encounter problem
A someone who is very stingy with consumable items myself, I like to give out recharging versions of them, like a potions that refills automatically everyday. You already have wands which are basically recharging scrolls, so why not do the same thing with other consumabls? It makes it feel less like you are wasting money by using a item
"Use the Talisman now" doesn't really help the Archetype specifically devoted to Talismans and their use, when by the time they are able to craft them they are several levels (half your level) behind.
Another great video, Ronald! I've been excited about Treasure Vault. Specifically the variant crafting rules. I haven't been too impressed with the core crafting rules (4-day minimum to craft anything, regardless of level difference, and still having to pay full price for the item because making up the second half via Earn Income would take SOOO long), so hopefully the variant will be better! I'm looking forward to watching your series for players looking to migrate from D&D to Pathfinder. I'm already going to guess that one of those videos you're going to react to is Taking20's illusion of choice video. The other one may be one of Puffin's videos? I remember listening to a review of PF2e that he published around the time the Core Rulebook came out. That was well before I ended up making the switch to PF2e (thanks in large part to one of your videos), and even then I remember thinking to myself that Puffin was making things sound far more complicated than they needed to be.
* Sees Twilight Imperium box and smiles. * Oh, I'll have a think on these... as someone migrating out of 5e and consider PF2e. Potency Crystal sounds interesting. Hmm... weapon 'becomes' a +1. So, if your weapon is already +1 or better then this is useless to you. Otherwise, sounds good for a mundane weapon. And for that price, I wouldn't bother selling it... if my main can't benefit from it, then slap it on my backup weapon. Variant ) So, instead of whatever bonus it gives... it instead give a bonus from the list based on level... so a +1 Atk and +1dx Dmg would only be +1 Atk at level 2, or +1dx Dmg at level 4. Solution : Consider the value of use vs selling ) I see the argument. And it works for items you FIND out and about. However, the issue I had with consumables in 5e was that if i want to buy them, they are rare and expensive. Common healing potion for 50g in 5e? I heard stories of players affording to down these like crazy. However, my group with lvl 12 characters need to decide if we pick up materials we need for spells, or a common healing potion each. My lvl 12 character has under 13g total, and has never purchased a healing potion. He has one, that came from loot or as a pre-payment for a request we accepted ( I forget which, it has been a while since he got it). I did buy a 150g gem that I thought could maybe be used for a spell... but on inspection, the contents were wrong (undead eye instead of tears)... so I have a 150g gem to sell off again some time. * checks * Yup, said character started at level 5 with 20g, starter equipment, and a saddle of the cavalier... and his biggest purchase was that gem. Maybe I should go through all my notes and track his actual gains and expenses. ( I make note, just in case Roll20 breaks stuff on my sheet again... so I can rebuild it.) - I see, rather than try and find a way to discourage selling one time use items to buy a repeatable use item... instead, you are giving examples of how to use various one time use items. I don't think this is actually a solution to the issue. It does help those who don't think they can be creative with items... but myself, I often forget that I have the items. In 5e, I have a habit of collecting consumables and never using them, because I forget them when a time comes that I can use them... or a time never comes that I can use them. I expect to have the same issue in PF2e. Maybe I will keep separate lists for consumables, gear, and equipment. I am hesitant to sell items that might come in handy. - I haven't fully learned about these things yet... but if they have requirements to be able to use them, and costs to use them, and conditions to use them... well, that is a lot of hoops to jump through. I mean, would I buy a 20g item to gain +1 to hit and +1dx dmg for one turn (probably just one attack) ? Depends, is 20g pocket change, a day's wage, or a fortune to the working class? In 5e, 1g is like a week's wage to a worker. So they can't even afford to look upon a common healing potion, never mind actually ever taste one. I'll use it if I have one and can find a use... but ain't no way I'm buying them.
It's an economy problem. Just treat them like finding gemstones you can sell, cause they are generally absolutely useless in my experience, cause anyone worth using them on will save against them, and the effects are irrelevant or lack duration for most part. Unless you are like playing solo and facing enemies you don't have counter for, while you have bunch of money you can't use on actually useful stuff. Basically they only work is money is nearly worthless. I mean assuming money is worthless yea, buy them in bulk its free status effects.
I’m always enjoy using consumables in games and pathfinder hasn’t been different. I usually have a talisman equipped to a weapon and amour for anything I think is annoying. Like I had a shark tooth charm on until I got unfettered halfling cause I find getting grappled annoying. Two potions of retaliation allowed our party to do almost half the end of book boss’ health. But I think consumables only get this much use cause our party doesn’t really take the incredibly useful stuff. Our wizard preps almost nothing but damage. We have no fighter. One of the players just getting to stuff for rp. So things like cats eye elixirs are fantastic cause no one has blind fight or a spell to get rid of invisibility. I just got a viper fang as a reward and super excited for it cause no one has AoO in the party and we always say how nice it would be to have someone with it.
I did Age of ashes as the tank whit shield block and i use the fortifying pebble to help, I used a truck load but i'm pretty sure i was the only one to use Talismans during the AP
I've been thinking of homebrewing a rule that changes Talismans to a be used once per day, and requires a character to attune to it at the beginning of the day.
Yeah that's the obvious solution and the Talisman Cord that Paizo printed later on is kind of attempt at something similar. Just make Talismans work like Wands (and increase the price accordingly).
Honestly? I feel like a decent homebrew idea for a lot of talismans (maybe even all) would be just to tell the players to ignore any skill requirements, cause I alot of these feel like they're more helpful for charecters that dont HAVE the prerequisites. Cause when you think about it, having talismans (such as the grab a ledge one) need a good save/skill/etc is like having a scroll that makes you not only need to know, but also expend the exact same spell for what at times is a relatively small benefit (such as a "fireball" scroll which makes your fireballs ones on the dice into 2's, its a nice effect, but are you REALLY gonna through the hassle of both buying/not selling AND specifically remembering such a consumable item exist only then to lose the item?
something else to note: it only says spellstrike ammo needs to be activate with a spell. there is no indication that it decay, meaning a lvl 2 wizard could get a whole bundle of 10 shocking grasp arrows made in about 4 days (lol) and hand it off to the ranger on their next adventure, assuming they had the gold.
Dont forget: You dont have always endless access to the Items anyways, use what you have and roleplay the game. :) Theorycrafting ok but too much of it makes nonsense ^^ Oh by the way: I use my Bag of Weasels to store my Consumeables and Talismans
it's really that they are a lot of hassle and ruin the action economy. The point of consumables is the ability to adapt to situations, but if you need to spend actions to get out, ready and use the stuff the often miniscule bonus they bring really isn't worth it. I don't sell them for the money but out of principle when it comes to combat relevant usables.
ooooo fancy arrows narrowing in on the character I actually wanna play of course I still have to find a group that'll deal with my newbie socially incept ass.
I didn't realize talismans were hated. I love them and have used them. They have some cool effects that can create the edge. I have played TTRPGS for a long time so I do a lot of homebrew (making my own system slowly as it is only me that is a modular system) and I have designed a TON of custom gear for players in my game. This harkens back to when I was playing hardcore crafter in 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder 1e where I would create custom magic items FULLY in the bounds of the RAW. So I constantly make my own things if something is needed. Many things I came up with in idea (ointments, talismans, and such) I created back then because I liked the idea though named different. I am sure many other people that have played these game also came up before me the same idea, it isn't like they are novel ideas after all. So when I saw official items being made I jumped on them. I use consumables in games a lot, they are there to give an edge when need above what you can do. It is a burst of power in that vain. My roommate when he plays the Souls games doesn't use consumables because (in his words), "I don't want to get used to relying on them and not have them when I need them." This is the DUMBEST thing I have heard and I tell him as much. Consumables are there for when you need a boost, not like a run which is a reliable source of a constant power up. Every single item has value, but it sounds to me players are getting hung up still on math as a way to guage power and not things to do. This is why it is now more dice on weapons with runes and not an ever increasing flat number. When you get a high roll on your weapon it feels amazing, in 1e and 5e you get a high roll on the damage dice...doesn't matter as much because it is still a difference of maybe 5 points on average with the weapon. Often the flat damage alone is almost double the average roll of all weapons. Thus the roll matters less. Talismans, like any consumable, are designed to be used when you are equal in power and want to get over a hump in some way.
@@gustavotriqui Hmm, each table to their own. Any item I get I find a use. I am pretty creative, though playing many rpgs I gotten used to holding on to anything and everything. I have made characters who hate possessions as a whole and even gives his money to other party members and they buy the stuff I need. In the end, the usefulness of any object is what you make of it. A +1 potency longsword has almost no use in a wizards hand so it would be useless to him. However, what if he diced to use it for other purposes? Creativity is the limit of usefulness and I don't like selling stuff, I prefer to use everything I find at some point and if I don't have a use I just leave it. Only thing I never leave is stuff that is just money. This includes gems, statuettes, or other such things which are just there as things other then a pile of cash everytime. Sellable goods like that are not handed out as much, instead of alternative valuable objects DMs anymore either hand out gold or magic items that are useless in their hands, but can be sold for cash. I love loot that is valuable is various ways. I never understand why every single creatures hordes gold if not some piece of gear they will use. I had a goblin tribe obsessed with buckets. So they stole buckets and had a huge horde of buckets, some were filled. Now the reason is they didn't live near water nor had a way to contain it, so they found extreme value in buckets because they could hold water it them.
I will never not invest in buying my entire party potions of Feather Fall. It is literally a drinkable parachute. It also lets the GM not feel bad throwing the entire party off a cliff once or twice.
Plays a barbarian. Looks at talismans with big sparkly eyes. Reads requirements for free action "envision". All hopes and dreams of cheap and useful talismans die.
Yep, my players hate talismans too, so I just use them in monsters and I have a ball kicking PCs butts. I don't use to tell them what is best for their characters to do, if they waste the goodies too bad for them. In many cases I see players playing Pathfinder Ina DnDish way without using conditions to their advantage and loosing attacks by that missing extra +1 or +2 bonus that conditions or talismans give.
I blame Final Fantasy for making my players not use consumables lol And I think it's apt, after Final Fantasy IV the games became so easy that you don't need to use consumables at all, so it trains you not to. That series should have a difficulty setting.
@@Extradecentskeleton not *needed* but only because you can overgrind in all the games. But if you play the game without grinding they are necessary. That's not the case in the later games.
@Liquor Fan IDK man I didn't really grind that hard in my last version of ff1 and their is some busted stuff in those games. Learning how to use berserk breaks ff2
@@Extradecentskeleton For sure there's ways to break both games, specially with late game stuff. But my point is that you don't have to break FFV or VI (for example) to make them easy, most of the time just pressing A until you kill everything is a valid strategy.
One of the signs of good RPG balance is that players actually use consumables and don't let them pile up in inventories or sell them off. This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the game itself, but the campaign difficulty. If players just have piles of consumables you should consider making your encounters harder.
I also find that using consumables often, whether it's in a video game or a TTRPG, is a lot of fun compared to just hoarding them. Nuking a room with a necklace of fireballs is several times more enjoyable than just turning it into 22 gold
The reason why my group sell those items is because they don't want to waste brainpower trying to remember 127 minuscule circumstantial bonus to niche situations. Yes, that might be useful and have a cascade effect. But the game is already over complex to add more things to remember that have minor effects during one round of a particular combat that you _will_ win regardless.
The solution is really simple: make talismans 1/day use. As consumables, they're objectively awful value. The other solution is to reduce their cost by one entire coin value. 10g -> 10s.
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG the why should I spend 10 minutes to affix a single item on another item, which would then be usable once and lost. Also I can't have another item affixed to the said item while the previous item is affixed. And I have to have a certain skill to use affixed item in a first place. Tl Dr: talismans unlike every other consumable are so bad because of all the limitations, it's just not worth it. I was hoping paizo noticed that and made some kinda new rules for them in the new book, but alas it seems I was wrong.
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I think one thing people overlook when they see that 10-minute Affix a Talisman activity is that *the talismans stay on indefinitely.* If you don't have the Quick Fix skill feat or are a certified Talisman Dabbler, the intention is not that you try to affix a bunch of talismans between every combat, or god forbid that you do it *in combat.*
You're meant to Affix all your talismans in the morning and maybe replace one in-between encounters. Spend some minutes while the Wizard is prepping their spells to affix a talisman to each of your armor and to your martials' weapons. Then use them when the situations come up. Don't just assume that breakfast prep time is only for the casters' benefits in 2e.
If you don't use the talisman that day? Oh well - it's still on for the next day and you can get going a bit faster. Want to swap a talisman out? It's not destroyed if you use the activity to remove a talisman, so go ahead.
Are people Refocusing and Treating Wounds between combats? Affix a Talisman then while you've got nothing better to do. Do *you* also need to Refocus? Affixing a Talisman isn't exactly strenuous, so it can (and should imo) be argued that you can do it alongside your Refocusing activity for basically every class.
I do think most of the proficiency requirements are kinda lame and don't help their case, though. At the very most they should only ever require Trained proficiency in anything.
I really wish Trick Magic Item didn’t cost an entire action in addition to whatever actions you need to activate the item normally. That sharply curtails its utility. In fact, that actually prevents the use case you mention! You can’t use the three-action version of Heal with Trick Magic Item. You don’t have enough actions in your turn.
Crap. Correcting. Lol
Which is why I was so frustrated with the Scroll Trickster Archetype. The feat that lets you trick magic item for free is bundled into the draw action rather then the cast action so you still can't use 3-action scrolls.
Huh! That's weird that it MUST be the current turn, why not allow it to just be "If your next action is to..." kind of thing? Then it would roll over to the next turn allowing you to use three action items! That doesn't seem to break the game at all!
Or to make it slightly harder to do, make being able to use the item like normal "Until the end of your NEXT turn" for a critical success! Then it's still possible but it's hard to do, and it probably SHOULD be hard to use three action magic items!
@@brutusthecat6044 Well, even if you could trick for free you still need to draw the scroll so you STILL wouldn't be able to cast a 3 action spell on the same turn as you drew it. The feat allows you to draw and trick in one action.
I created a feat long ago when I saw trick magic item called. Risky Trick. It is a skill feat that is higher level that requires Trick Magic item, and Master in one of the 4 skills.
This allows you to trick as a free action, however if you do any failure become a critical failure instead. That is it, so you can only get a success or critical failure. This means you gambled, and if you succeed it REALLY pays off since you have 3 full actions to use.
Quick edit: I have homebrewed many feats and archetypes for my players and roommate whom GM for Pathfinder 2e. I love creating new things. My big thing is I always design inclusively not exclusively. In other words I never try to remove stuff, rules or anything. I create new things to improve stuff I think is underwhelming or plain bad (crafting rules).
@@MrReaperHand you are right but, no one can draw and cast a 3 action scroll on the same turn. With Skim Scroll being bundled into the draw action, sure you can now cast 2 action scrolls the turn you draw them, but you can split those actions across 2 turns to give yourself access to 3 action scrolls.
Edit: the only way around this is to dip into the Thaumaturge Archetype and take their level 1 Scroll Mastery feat, then switch back to trickster for the daily spells.
One of the biggest issues with consumables over their over sized cost, is remembering you have them and to use them!
The problem with niche use items is remembering you have them, because you don't use them often!
As many others have said, those skill prerequisites are really restrictive. At those price points, one time use for a extremely niche use is hard to justify the meta attention of figuring out which you want to use and who in the party should have them. Once per day or once until you do something specific to recharge them and *maybe* I'd spend the time/energy on bothering with them.
Oooooh, as a self described potion enthusiast and known at my tables for being "the consumable guy", I have some VERY strong stances on consumables!
For starters; you touched on this, but you didn't really push it home; consumables provide MASSIVE action economy benefits. Talismans are often free actions or reactions, which is nice; but another thing thats forgotten is that potions typically provide the same benefit as an on level spell for one action. Some might argue that it's actually two, because you need to draw it first, but there's many ways you can "cheat" this:
-starting combat with a potion in hand. My alchemist does this ALL the time; effectively lets me use two items turn one. This is especially nice on potions of quickness; level 3 haste is terrible, since you need 2 turns for it to even break even; 3 of you self target. With the potion; hasting an adjacent ally pays itself automatically if they delay for you to buff them, and pays itself off after two turns if you self buff; which is a LOT better.
-Valet Familiar lets you turn one action into two by handing you a consumable, then using it, then throwing another in hand; possibly allowing you to drink two potions in on turn, or simply having another item ready for a future turn
-Gloves of Storing or Retrieval Prisms; this is essential getting one quickened spell per battle; truly, incredibly good; you're basically buying a midlevel feat for pocket change with the prism
Additionally, they also let you "carry over" actions. Like I've already said, potions and elixirs provide spell level effects; so on one turn, I could, say, cast and draw and item, then next turn cast again and use the item; creating 3 two action spells worth of effects over 2 turns; which you otherwise cannot normally do at all without Quicken Casting, and thats 1/day
Consumables also often punch above their weight class in terms of the effects they produce; like the potion of disguise lasts for much longer than humanoid form, AND has more freedom as to what you can turn into!
Theres so many good things about consumables that as long as you are willing to put in just minor levels of investment into your playstyle and gear to facilitate their use; will allow you to be much better than if you were just to sell then in hopes that maybe it'll get you that rune slightly faster
My biggest issue with Talismans is the activation requirements. They are designed to make someone who can already do something, be able to do it a little better. A Champion who is afraid of falling off a ledge that can't use a Savior Spike until 9th level because reflex is his weakest save. These aren't one use items to shore up weaknesses rather they help mitigate a bad roll of something that you are already good at.
I really wish they could be both.
BTW the trigger for Vanishing Coin is "Trigger You attempt a Stealth check for initiative, but you haven't rolled yet; Requirements You are a master in Stealth" so cannot be used in middle of combat which vastly limits when and who can use it.
Ah, thanks. Will add the correction
I've always wanted to like talismans. I love the concept of them. But they suffer from a lot of issues for me.
1) The use cases are often too niche. There are situations where, if you can remember you have it, and if you have the right one equipped, and if that situation arises, then they would totally be worth expending that money on. But that's a lot of ifs. Too many.
2) Many of the talismans that have enough impact on a situation important enough or common enough to be noteworthy are also gated behind having a skill proficiency... and hilariously enough, often a skill proficiency that if you have that proficiency, you probably don't need that talisman!
3) I over analyze things to an extreme, and know that ultimately, whether I use a talisman or not is very very unlikely to change the overall outcome of a situation. It could. But its highly unlikely to. Will someone die? Will there be a lasting consequence if I don't use it? That chance is incredibly remote. And as a result of all of these things...
4) It's not worth the brain space. There are so many things my brain can be focusing on in this game already. By level 10 I'm struggling to remember all of the feats I have, possible skill uses I have, permanent item effects I have, spells I have... Unless a consumable item is going to have a very common and/or impactful use-case, I am not going to remember it. And so I am much better off mulching it in to currency that I can spend on an item that is going to have a more common use-case and be more impactful, and therefore easier to remember, or just a flat permanent bonus I can write down somewhere and wont have to think about anymore.
I kind of hoped that talismans would basically be spell scrolls for martials. That they would have more flashy and explosive effects inside them to be unleashed in a pinch or when you want to go all-out on the BBEG. Something like "When you successfully strike an enemy in melee, you can use your reaction to cause the talisman to burst and cause a shockwave of force, dealing 3d6 force damage to all other creatures within 10ft of the target. You are immune to this damage." Now THAT I would remember. That's freaking cool. A simple and common use-case. And sure, maybe that would start feeling like an obvious choice or a must-have item but... that's why it costs gold.
Number 3.) is the main reason we sell them. There are so rarely situations where they are useful that we usually have forgotten they exist if we finally come in the right situation
I think one thing that makes people hesitant to use talismans is that it takes 10 minutes to equip one (unless you take a feat and invest a lot in crafting or archetypes) and you can have a single one equipped per weapon/armor piece.
For me it's their very situational nature. It looks great from the GM's perspective, because we usually know what encounters can happen, but the players have no idea, so they read "X gold for a thing that only one or two characters can use and might let them knock something prone once, maybe" and they go "we sell it". xD
Another thing that I don't love about talismans is that they tend to replicate skill feats, which usually the players have in abundance and can't even bother remember that they have them to use them, let alone a "consumable skill feat"
@@lorenzovaletti4951 Yeah i think for the consummable skill feat ones the issue is that they are so niche you easily forget them.
For *some* automation can help if it's some sort of circumstance bonus on specific rolls.
The ones that replicate class feats or are very unique are easier to remember, but I think it's also a case of using them more often.
Talismans DON'T suck.
ADDITION: I see a good point in some comments. A NUMBER of talismans have skill proficiency requirements, the effect of which is "most of the party can't use it, and the one who can use it doesn't need it." The "standing" coin requires being an expert in Acrobatics, might be benefiting only the player who is taking Kip Up at 7th or 8th level. The Bronze Bull Pendant is different, in that it gives a status bonus to Shove...
... And so a HOUSE RULE I'm open to is removing the proficiency requirements for talismans. I can see what they were going for, but it devalues talismans more than I think the game needs.
CORRECTIONS:
1. My example of the barbarian using 3-action heal with Trick Magic Item doesn't work because of the +1 action cost involved with that feat. Crikey!
2. Vanishing Coin only works when rolling initiative. So it lets you be invisible up to and through your first turn... which can be for a variety of reasons!
Why not make a pathfinder 2e books for player options video. I have looked at paizo and their website and i have no clue what books offer player options and which ones are for dms and would love a vieeo explaining that and which books are worth buying for what reason in your opinion
@@davidmoseley1082 Really good idea! I think I can do that. Probably during this Humble Bundle, too.
Talismans are mostly sold at my tables, because either people cannot use it, or don't need it...
So it's requirements are pretty much the reason to sell instead of hoarding .
At our table we use automatic bonus progression all the time. It leaves only fun and interesting things in loot and frees gold economy for our parties. I wholeheartedly believe that abp is superior to basic system in every way.
The problem I've had with a lot of consumables is they are often too situational. Much like your examples of Prone, swimming, invisible enemy, and etc. So if you rarely get knocked prone, have not encountered any swimming encounters, simply powered through or had a party member with ability to negate invisibility, and so on then the items seem kinda pointless where having the gold to get something else feels better.
There are lots of other magic items besides the weapon/armor boosting ones. Getting the better kits that give +1 bonuses on skill checks are nice to have. Even things like Demon mask that gives +1 intimidation for characters who like to demoralize a lot is handy to have which give boost or daily uses like the healers gloves which are great for any character as it's a touch heal that doesn't require character to be able to cast like scrolls/wands do.
That said I do think some consumables are useful. Scrolls are really handy to have for utility spells you might use once in a while but don't want to waste a daily slot on, like Comprehend Languages. Also having some additional healing scrolls for emergencies is nice, some might be tempted by the Wand because it's permanent but wand is once per day and if you need need it a couple times then having multiple scrolls is better than one wand. You can get like 10-15 scrolls for the price of a wand depending on the level. And odds are you won't be needing that many heals so the low level wand will quickly fall out of usefulness and can be hard to keep upgrading the wand tier. But a few scrolls for a party without much healing can help in a pinch.
When it comes to Talismans though I think the new Spellhearts which use up the Talisman slot have more usefulness. I mean looking at some of the later Talisman effects as the price goes up, spend 100 gp to make someone flat footed for ONE ROUND, seems a bit pricey. There are quite a few that sound interesting but if it never comes up in your campaign and with 1 slot it means you have to be careful with what you pick or you'll end up with a Talisman you never use just sitting on armor/weapon. Plus it can be hard to tell if that little bit extra now is really needed or save for later. It's the same reason people end up in video games with dozens of consumables as fear of needing them later comes up.
Personally I find there are a lot of magic items that give daily uses of abilities that are similar or better than consumables. Like there is level 7 Boots of Bounding for 340 gp and give you +5 speed. Healers Gloves 80 gp for Daily restoring 2d6+7 Hit Points to adj creature, Broach of shielding 30 gp and automatically absorbs 30 Magic Missile bolts, Lifting Belt 80 gp +1 Athletics and increase bulk carrying +1, Ring of Ram 220 gp onces per minute DC22 attack 2/4/6 D6 depending on 1-3 action activate(not spell), Ring of Energy Resistance 245gp +5 resistance (pick energy type), Sleeves of Storage 100gp can hold 5 Bulk each(10 total) and only require 1 action and 1 free hand to use so great for alchemist and so many more great items.
With all the various utility permanent magic out there it's easy to find interesting things that have either consistent effects or repeatable uses. As such I feel a lot of consumables need a boost because there are so many items the party would rather have. In most cases if I'm gonna be forking over that much cash I want a big bang for my buck. And the few consumables that are good at any level are handy later when cash is easy to get and their price is a drop in the bucket but those are few and far between.
I think one part of talismans that - while balance-wise fairly important - contributes to their lack of use is the training requirements. For example, with the Copper Coin, your caster would require Expert Acrobatics to actually use it. For casters this can be hard to justify unless you happen to utilize flight often with Maneuver in Flight actions. It certainly isn't an impossibility, but an additional cost.
Furthermore, if you are acquiring Expert Acrobatics at the time this item would be on-level, you aren't far from acquiring the Kip-Up skill feat which nullifies the item entirely. This results in a fairly narrow use-case for characters that specialize in Acrobatics but are on-level, and other characters who aren't specializing but happened to get to Expert Acrobatics for whatever external reason.
The amount of times our party got a talisman and the reaction was "this would be helpful for everyone except the only guy that can use it" is entirely too high.
@@Team_Orchid This is a good point. The "standing" coin is for someone who might be taking Kip Up at Level 7.
Something I do with a house rule is take that "you can wear a tool set up to 2 bulk" and change that to being able to wear up to 2 bulk of anything that's not a weapon. I find players are more willing to quickly draw consumables for use (even when using them on fellow PCs) when there isn't an action tax to first pull it out. My players even develop strategies around that, letting the backline act as "tanks" by shoving as many healing potions and other consumables for the frontliners who are trying to deal damage. It helps add flexibility to player roles in the moment by redefining who is being offense and who is being defense, and redefining how to fulfill those roles. Quick Bomber is still useful though, since now it frees up more of your 2 Bulk of Worn stuff, which can be huge.
1:02 Oh boy! I THINK I know which videos he's talking about! That last part should be interesting!!!
Which ones?
@@guestGoob I'm not going say! People will have to wait until he gets to the video! Plus I COULD be wrong and there might be other videos that I haven't seen criticizing Pathfinder, or Paizo in general!
I WILL say that one of them, I'm fairly confident that this is going to be one of them, is actually the reason I started looking into Pathfinder 2e! I watched the original video and of course YT said "HEY! We think you'll like these too" at first I didn't care but I kept seeing more and more so I eventually caved and watched most of them, and I STILL watch most of those channels to this day!
I’ve had players devalue one shot items as well, but occasionally they’ve been used to significant effect to give big boosts in combat that saved them. The nice part about consumables is that they’re modular, don’t have the same limits that other permanent items have like requiring potency levels, investment etc.
This is why I like features that grant free consumables each day, investegator, alchemist, thaumaturge (scrolls/talismans), ranger (traps), Kobolds, Hobgoblins, scroll trickster archetype, talisman dabbler, and lastly trap master all come to mind. They allow remove some of the financial commitment of using consumables. I really just want to make a character that embodies "random bullshit gooo!"
About the spellstrike ammunitions, technically another caster can activate it and a martial can have readied an action to fire an arrow handed to them toward and ennemy. As long as it all happens during the turn the arrow is activated. So, wizards if you're tired of missing your Disintegrate attack roll, hand over an arrow to your fighter buddy.
Sadly I don't think that works. From the rules for Magical Ammunition: "Once you activate the ammunition, you must shoot it before the end of your turn. "
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Well yes, since it is shot as a reaction (if you use your last action to hand it over to the martial who readied their action to shoot an arrow handed to them) it is fired before the end of your turn, isn't it ?
Before even viewing this video I'd like to say: THEY DON'T SUCK!" A lot of them a situational that when comes up really saves your ass or help you do a bit more to give you the advantage in a fight.
Crying angel talisman: prevents a crit fail on administer fist aid. This can be crucial when you need to pick someone up who has dying 2.
Potency crystal: are amazing for level 1-3 to hit more and hit harder. It's basically one time magic weapon. Great for boss battles or when a fight turns out harder than expected.
Jade cat:is great all the way up to level 20. Reducing fall by 20 feet grants you a lot more mobility during a fight I'm a vertical map
Blood seeker beak: is amazing for rogues good for everyone else. Adding persistent damage is something you should always seek to do in a fight. It's a bit of extra damage that can go a long way. 1d4 extra damage is just flat out good.
Talismans that give fighter feats: many weapon talisman grants you a fighter feats. This simply helps expand your option in combat, and you can never go wrong with picking at least one up.
Dragon one arrowhead: this is good for melee people absolutely great for a two handed or dual weapon melee user. Grants you a 20 foot range to chuck your weapon with the full force of it's damage then it returns to your hand. This can use to reach an enemy who's just out of range, or strike someone you want to waist actions moving towards you.
Fortifying pebble and rhino hide: someone focus on defending the party while taking the brunt of the damage should have a few of these at later levels. Helps your shield and you last longer.
I could go on. These are just some of the ones that stand out to me.
Thank you for reasoning. Sharing with my players!
Very glad to see this one! I love talismans and consumables -- I have a l14 alchemist w/the free archetype of Talisman Dabbler hehhe - - so FUN!
THANK YOU! I always wanted to be able to make a character that focused on talismans but yeah, the cost and time were never worth the effect!
Great deep dive video and analysis as always. One comment I have is that there's a discrepancy of view point between GM and players, when it comes to usable treasure. For us GMs it's easy to see the value of things because we know what is going to happen. But, for the players, it's much harder to judge whether something is worth keeping or selling as they have no idea what they will be going up against. They might prefer having currency for the freedom it gives them to go find the right tool when they eventually find out which it is, or relying on much broader use consumables such as spell scrolls, wands, wearable spell-like items and potions.
Personally, I wish I could make my games much more varied in non-encounter (non strictly combat) challenges, so that there's more freedom to explore "exotic" items and not rely on the fundamentals every time.
Currently playing a character with the secondary talisman dabbler archetype, so this is a really handy video. I'll be looking really carefully at what I can make and what the party might need. Being able to cover specifics daily might help with this.
I made pretty ample use of that ghostshot fulu when I played my sniper gunslinger over Christmas break
I am planning to play a thaumaturge in my upcoming kingmaker campaign and want to double town on talismans (Thaumaturge feat + talisman dabble with FA) because I love the flavour of talismas. I had to click on this video to see what you have to say and now I am intrigued for the preview video :)
It must depend on the group. My group likes to keep consumable because to many times have consumable saved the party of made a challenge easier. And just as many examples where they sold a consumable and later it would have been handy to have.
Automatic Bonus Progression is very good at making people value consumables more by opening up the loot table and treasure value since you don't get item bonuses from magic items anymore and you don't have to save all your money for the runes the math assumes you have at the necessary break points. ABP is standard at all tables with GMs that have tried it that I know.
So you mentioned that parties want to sell their consumable magic items because of their high resell value. Oddly enough, I didn't get that far. As a DM, setting up my first session and reading through prices, I thought "boy, these things are way too expensive!" A d8 healing potion literally costs over 25% of a character's starting wealth. That fear gem you mentioned is 1/3rd the price of a permanent striking rune. That's just way too much IMHO. So I basically slashed the cost of consumables and scrolls by 75%, which, in turn, lowers their resell values as well. Lo and behold, players buy and use consumable items more often...but not so much that it breaks the game or anything.
Correction: If you fall with your hands full, you can't choose to drop stuff. You just fall. There isn't a trigger on drop an item, so you can't do it outside your turn. The Snapleaf talisman is nice because you can't fail, but you do fall (feather fall).
This just isn't true. The Critical Success effect for Grab an Edge states: "You grab the edge or handhold, whether or not you have a hand free, typically by using a suitable held item to catch yourself (catching a battle axe on a ledge, for example). You still take damage from the distance fallen so far, but you treat the fall as though it were 30 feet shorter."
This means you can attempt to grab an edge while having both hands full, and in later levels becomes easy to do so. A cliff's Climb DC is 19, which means to crit at grabbing the edge is DC 29. But it's a gamble, because if you spend the reaction and fall to grab the edge you will not have a reaction left for the Talisman
I think something you miss in your cost analysis for striking runes is that players typically want the rune when they hit 4th level rather than at the end of 4th level. This means they'll only have access to the loot from levels 1 to 3, not level 4. the expected currency from level 1 to 3 is 58 gold per player so unless they have remaining gold from character creation they won't be able to afford it without selling something, especially of they've already purchased a potency rune.
I love consumables. Only one of my party members seriously engages with them (outside of wands). But I think as time goes on that will change. Talismans, potions, elixirs, scrolls, and various ammunition used correctly can completely alter a fight.
Pathfinder 2e is mostly about having the right tools deployed at the right time. What could be more beneficial than a wider toolkit?
This definitely seemed to miss the main issues with items. Most of it was just "there are many useful items" but the issue comes down to most of the time most items aren't useful.
People don't just sell them because they really need that gold. But because I'm their mind the gold is "better than nothing"
DMs that use random loot to give or make these consumables available to the players. Oh goody a water breathing potion in a campaign where the biggest body of water was a puddle. In these situations, the items really are just reskined gold to make the loot more immersive.
The send issue with items is the added effort required to use them. Most players have a hard time remembering and keeping track of their regular spells and abilities. Let alone remembering an item they picked up 4 months ago irl.
The best way to get players to use more items is to give them items to know they will have a use for in the near future. As a dm you should have a pretty good idea of what monsters or hazards are coming up. And the more often you grant your players an item that will help them with those problems the more used to items they will become and eventually they will start seeking out or crafting items they may need on their own.
This isn't a pathfinder issue either. Or even one isolated to ttrpgs. Many rpgs out there run into this same issue particularly in the modern day, when developers ensure you can get by without them.
There is a lot of initial investment required in pursuing and tracking consumables, and often, there is no major immediate reward. Pushing people away from them.
Well said.
still feel its way to expensive, any consumable that needs a save or attack roll to succeed has trouble when facing low number of enemies high difficulty fights simply because you have to roll high to hit or the enemy needs only something like a 5 to ignore the effect. in difficult fights with a high number of lower level enemies this effect is watered down because many consumable only affect 1 enemy. talismans suffer especially because most are extremely expensive for the effects they give.
now they are useful on characters that create consumables, like a snarecrafter or an alchemist as they can often build a significant amount of them on a daily basis as well as greatly magnify the effect. elixers and scrolls can be awesome, scrolls because they pack good power for a cheap price, elixers because they are generally buffs of decent magnitude and don't require a save or attack roll. but poisons, munitions etc will often suffer from the ..its not useful to use in an easy encounter and its unreliable in a hard encounter problem
Great video as always!
May the algorithm bless you, my son.
I love one shot magic items! Cheap and good!
Wow, I've never been to a video less than an hour after it was uploaded before.
A someone who is very stingy with consumable items myself, I like to give out recharging versions of them, like a potions that refills automatically everyday.
You already have wands which are basically recharging scrolls, so why not do the same thing with other consumabls?
It makes it feel less like you are wasting money by using a item
"Use the Talisman now" doesn't really help the Archetype specifically devoted to Talismans and their use, when by the time they are able to craft them they are several levels (half your level) behind.
Another great video, Ronald! I've been excited about Treasure Vault. Specifically the variant crafting rules. I haven't been too impressed with the core crafting rules (4-day minimum to craft anything, regardless of level difference, and still having to pay full price for the item because making up the second half via Earn Income would take SOOO long), so hopefully the variant will be better!
I'm looking forward to watching your series for players looking to migrate from D&D to Pathfinder. I'm already going to guess that one of those videos you're going to react to is Taking20's illusion of choice video. The other one may be one of Puffin's videos? I remember listening to a review of PF2e that he published around the time the Core Rulebook came out. That was well before I ended up making the switch to PF2e (thanks in large part to one of your videos), and even then I remember thinking to myself that Puffin was making things sound far more complicated than they needed to be.
* Sees Twilight Imperium box and smiles. *
Oh, I'll have a think on these... as someone migrating out of 5e and consider PF2e.
Potency Crystal sounds interesting. Hmm... weapon 'becomes' a +1. So, if your weapon is already +1 or better then this is useless to you. Otherwise, sounds good for a mundane weapon. And for that price, I wouldn't bother selling it... if my main can't benefit from it, then slap it on my backup weapon.
Variant ) So, instead of whatever bonus it gives... it instead give a bonus from the list based on level... so a +1 Atk and +1dx Dmg would only be +1 Atk at level 2, or +1dx Dmg at level 4.
Solution : Consider the value of use vs selling ) I see the argument. And it works for items you FIND out and about. However, the issue I had with consumables in 5e was that if i want to buy them, they are rare and expensive. Common healing potion for 50g in 5e? I heard stories of players affording to down these like crazy. However, my group with lvl 12 characters need to decide if we pick up materials we need for spells, or a common healing potion each. My lvl 12 character has under 13g total, and has never purchased a healing potion. He has one, that came from loot or as a pre-payment for a request we accepted ( I forget which, it has been a while since he got it). I did buy a 150g gem that I thought could maybe be used for a spell... but on inspection, the contents were wrong (undead eye instead of tears)... so I have a 150g gem to sell off again some time.
* checks * Yup, said character started at level 5 with 20g, starter equipment, and a saddle of the cavalier... and his biggest purchase was that gem. Maybe I should go through all my notes and track his actual gains and expenses. ( I make note, just in case Roll20 breaks stuff on my sheet again... so I can rebuild it.)
- I see, rather than try and find a way to discourage selling one time use items to buy a repeatable use item... instead, you are giving examples of how to use various one time use items. I don't think this is actually a solution to the issue. It does help those who don't think they can be creative with items... but myself, I often forget that I have the items.
In 5e, I have a habit of collecting consumables and never using them, because I forget them when a time comes that I can use them... or a time never comes that I can use them. I expect to have the same issue in PF2e. Maybe I will keep separate lists for consumables, gear, and equipment. I am hesitant to sell items that might come in handy.
- I haven't fully learned about these things yet... but if they have requirements to be able to use them, and costs to use them, and conditions to use them... well, that is a lot of hoops to jump through. I mean, would I buy a 20g item to gain +1 to hit and +1dx dmg for one turn (probably just one attack) ? Depends, is 20g pocket change, a day's wage, or a fortune to the working class? In 5e, 1g is like a week's wage to a worker. So they can't even afford to look upon a common healing potion, never mind actually ever taste one. I'll use it if I have one and can find a use... but ain't no way I'm buying them.
It's an economy problem. Just treat them like finding gemstones you can sell, cause they are generally absolutely useless in my experience, cause anyone worth using them on will save against them, and the effects are irrelevant or lack duration for most part. Unless you are like playing solo and facing enemies you don't have counter for, while you have bunch of money you can't use on actually useful stuff.
Basically they only work is money is nearly worthless. I mean assuming money is worthless yea, buy them in bulk its free status effects.
I’m always enjoy using consumables in games and pathfinder hasn’t been different. I usually have a talisman equipped to a weapon and amour for anything I think is annoying. Like I had a shark tooth charm on until I got unfettered halfling cause I find getting grappled annoying. Two potions of retaliation allowed our party to do almost half the end of book boss’ health. But I think consumables only get this much use cause our party doesn’t really take the incredibly useful stuff. Our wizard preps almost nothing but damage. We have no fighter. One of the players just getting to stuff for rp. So things like cats eye elixirs are fantastic cause no one has blind fight or a spell to get rid of invisibility. I just got a viper fang as a reward and super excited for it cause no one has AoO in the party and we always say how nice it would be to have someone with it.
I did Age of ashes as the tank whit shield block and i use the fortifying pebble to help, I used a truck load but i'm pretty sure i was the only one to use Talismans during the AP
I've been thinking of homebrewing a rule that changes Talismans to a be used once per day, and requires a character to attune to it at the beginning of the day.
Yeah that's the obvious solution and the Talisman Cord that Paizo printed later on is kind of attempt at something similar. Just make Talismans work like Wands (and increase the price accordingly).
Excellent! Another system I'd love to see you review is Castles and Crusades by Troll Lord games
Honestly? I feel like a decent homebrew idea for a lot of talismans (maybe even all) would be just to tell the players to ignore any skill requirements, cause I alot of these feel like they're more helpful for charecters that dont HAVE the prerequisites.
Cause when you think about it, having talismans (such as the grab a ledge one) need a good save/skill/etc is like having a scroll that makes you not only need to know, but also expend the exact same spell for what at times is a relatively small benefit (such as a "fireball" scroll which makes your fireballs ones on the dice into 2's, its a nice effect, but are you REALLY gonna through the hassle of both buying/not selling AND specifically remembering such a consumable item exist only then to lose the item?
something else to note: it only says spellstrike ammo needs to be activate with a spell.
there is no indication that it decay, meaning a lvl 2 wizard could get a whole bundle of 10 shocking grasp arrows made in about 4 days (lol) and hand it off to the ranger on their next adventure, assuming they had the gold.
Dont forget: You dont have always endless access to the Items anyways, use what you have and roleplay the game. :) Theorycrafting ok but too much of it makes nonsense ^^
Oh by the way: I use my Bag of Weasels to store my Consumeables and Talismans
Great vid, but please get a better camera fixture or something; I felt like I was watching you on a ship sometimes XD
it's really that they are a lot of hassle and ruin the action economy. The point of consumables is the ability to adapt to situations, but if you need to spend actions to get out, ready and use the stuff the often miniscule bonus they bring really isn't worth it. I don't sell them for the money but out of principle when it comes to combat relevant usables.
This, they take way too long to do way too little. I find more utility in a pocket full of gold pieces.
ooooo fancy arrows narrowing in on the character I actually wanna play of course I still have to find a group that'll deal with my newbie socially incept ass.
Just giving Talismans more uses automatically make them so much better...
The problem with most consumable is that they can be useful for that cost to much and when you can get them later levels they become to useless.
Nice!
I didn't realize talismans were hated. I love them and have used them. They have some cool effects that can create the edge. I have played TTRPGS for a long time so I do a lot of homebrew (making my own system slowly as it is only me that is a modular system) and I have designed a TON of custom gear for players in my game. This harkens back to when I was playing hardcore crafter in 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder 1e where I would create custom magic items FULLY in the bounds of the RAW. So I constantly make my own things if something is needed. Many things I came up with in idea (ointments, talismans, and such) I created back then because I liked the idea though named different. I am sure many other people that have played these game also came up before me the same idea, it isn't like they are novel ideas after all.
So when I saw official items being made I jumped on them. I use consumables in games a lot, they are there to give an edge when need above what you can do. It is a burst of power in that vain. My roommate when he plays the Souls games doesn't use consumables because (in his words), "I don't want to get used to relying on them and not have them when I need them." This is the DUMBEST thing I have heard and I tell him as much. Consumables are there for when you need a boost, not like a run which is a reliable source of a constant power up.
Every single item has value, but it sounds to me players are getting hung up still on math as a way to guage power and not things to do. This is why it is now more dice on weapons with runes and not an ever increasing flat number. When you get a high roll on your weapon it feels amazing, in 1e and 5e you get a high roll on the damage dice...doesn't matter as much because it is still a difference of maybe 5 points on average with the weapon. Often the flat damage alone is almost double the average roll of all weapons. Thus the roll matters less.
Talismans, like any consumable, are designed to be used when you are equal in power and want to get over a hump in some way.
My players don't "hate" them. They just ignore them. Sell it and forget they exist.
They are a waste of mental load.
@@gustavotriqui Hmm, each table to their own. Any item I get I find a use. I am pretty creative, though playing many rpgs I gotten used to holding on to anything and everything. I have made characters who hate possessions as a whole and even gives his money to other party members and they buy the stuff I need.
In the end, the usefulness of any object is what you make of it. A +1 potency longsword has almost no use in a wizards hand so it would be useless to him. However, what if he diced to use it for other purposes? Creativity is the limit of usefulness and I don't like selling stuff, I prefer to use everything I find at some point and if I don't have a use I just leave it. Only thing I never leave is stuff that is just money. This includes gems, statuettes, or other such things which are just there as things other then a pile of cash everytime. Sellable goods like that are not handed out as much, instead of alternative valuable objects DMs anymore either hand out gold or magic items that are useless in their hands, but can be sold for cash. I love loot that is valuable is various ways. I never understand why every single creatures hordes gold if not some piece of gear they will use. I had a goblin tribe obsessed with buckets. So they stole buckets and had a huge horde of buckets, some were filled. Now the reason is they didn't live near water nor had a way to contain it, so they found extreme value in buckets because they could hold water it them.
I will never not invest in buying my entire party potions of Feather Fall. It is literally a drinkable parachute. It also lets the GM not feel bad throwing the entire party off a cliff once or twice.
My players got out of someone being permanently blinded because they had a prescient consumable and pulled out a scroll.
Plays a barbarian.
Looks at talismans with big sparkly eyes.
Reads requirements for free action "envision".
All hopes and dreams of cheap and useful talismans die.
Yep, my players hate talismans too, so I just use them in monsters and I have a ball kicking PCs butts. I don't use to tell them what is best for their characters to do, if they waste the goodies too bad for them.
In many cases I see players playing Pathfinder Ina DnDish way without using conditions to their advantage and loosing attacks by that missing extra +1 or +2 bonus that conditions or talismans give.
I blame Final Fantasy for making my players not use consumables lol
And I think it's apt, after Final Fantasy IV the games became so easy that you don't need to use consumables at all, so it trains you not to. That series should have a difficulty setting.
I mean, to be honest, you never needed them in the past games either.
@@Extradecentskeleton not *needed* but only because you can overgrind in all the games. But if you play the game without grinding they are necessary. That's not the case in the later games.
@Liquor Fan IDK man I didn't really grind that hard in my last version of ff1 and their is some busted stuff in those games. Learning how to use berserk breaks ff2
@@Extradecentskeleton For sure there's ways to break both games, specially with late game stuff. But my point is that you don't have to break FFV or VI (for example) to make them easy, most of the time just pressing A until you kill everything is a valid strategy.
One of the signs of good RPG balance is that players actually use consumables and don't let them pile up in inventories or sell them off. This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the game itself, but the campaign difficulty. If players just have piles of consumables you should consider making your encounters harder.
I also find that using consumables often, whether it's in a video game or a TTRPG, is a lot of fun compared to just hoarding them. Nuking a room with a necklace of fireballs is several times more enjoyable than just turning it into 22 gold
The reason why my group sell those items is because they don't want to waste brainpower trying to remember 127 minuscule circumstantial bonus to niche situations.
Yes, that might be useful and have a cascade effect. But the game is already over complex to add more things to remember that have minor effects during one round of a particular combat that you _will_ win regardless.
The solution is really simple: make talismans 1/day use. As consumables, they're objectively awful value.
The other solution is to reduce their cost by one entire coin value. 10g -> 10s.
Wait, this video explained nothing on how to make talismans not suck 😡
Did you see the timestamps? There isn't enough time to catalogue the hundreds of talismans, but to lay out principles. What is unanswered for you?
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG the why should I spend 10 minutes to affix a single item on another item, which would then be usable once and lost. Also I can't have another item affixed to the said item while the previous item is affixed. And I have to have a certain skill to use affixed item in a first place.
Tl Dr: talismans unlike every other consumable are so bad because of all the limitations, it's just not worth it. I was hoping paizo noticed that and made some kinda new rules for them in the new book, but alas it seems I was wrong.
crafting is a lot better in 1e ...