Can You Keep Different Dart Frog Species Together?
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- Опубликовано: 30 июл 2024
- Hello everyone!
In today's video, I'll be talking about whether or not you can keep different poison dart frogs together in the same vivarium. There are a lot of reasons not to do it, including issues with hybrids, bullying and competition for food, but in my opinion, there are also cases where it can be done safely.
Instagram: / gecko_geek06
Email: contact.tropical.tutorials@gmail.com
00:00 Intro
02:19 Hybrids and crossbreeds
05:55 Territorial behavior and bullying
09:48 Competition for food
11:08 Cannibalism
12:02 Climate requirements
12:41 Spread of diseases, parasites and pathogens
14:10 My mixed vivariums
15:19 Raising different froglets together
16:12 Keeping dart frogs with other animals
17:12 Conclusion
18:19 Outro
Music:
Lakey Inspired - This Feeling
Lakey Inspired - Distant
Lakey Inspired - Days Like These 
Животные
Hello everyone! I just wanted to point out a quick thing I didn't really address in the video.
The reason I made this video is not at all to try to advertise mixing species to beginners as the best way to keep dart frogs. The actual reason is that I want anyone who considers it to go into it with an educated mind instead of an ignorant one. When you hear the same, easily dismissible arguments (usually with a very bad tone) on repeat in facebook groups or in forums, while also seeing successful mixed tanks every once in a while, it's easy for a new keeper with some confidence to completely ignore the negative hate mob, go and buy random frogs and have it end in disaster. I thought it would be better to try to lay out all the cards on the table to let you make an educated decision.
I talked about this briefly in my dart frog care guide, so parts of this video might feel like I'm repeating what I said there, but I felt like this deserved it's own video going more in depth. My opinion isn't the only one out there (though I'm certainly not alone about it either) so I always recommend checking out other sources.
I've tried to stay as nuanced as possible in this video and bring up most of the arguments I've seen being used, even though the video follows a narrative assuming that it's possible to safely mix species (which, in my opinion, it is!), but if you disagree about anything I'd love to hear about your thoughts and experiences here in the comment section.
Do you have any topics you would like to see a video about? If so, please let me know about it.
This one doesn't apply to me, I don't even have 1 species of frog yet. I'm just here to look at the cute frogs!
Starting out in separate vivariums sounds like a solid plan
This channel is amazing. The quality of the content is unrivaled. The images are exquisite.
Great video ! Happy to see a new video of your channel.
Love this video. I have been watching a lot of your videos while setting up my own vivarium for Phyllobates vittatus and hopefully trying to breed them.
Great topic, video and conclusions!🙂👍
Awesome content!
Thank you 🙏🏾 very informative.
Great video! As a African cichlid breeder, I totally understand not mixing for hydration, it has ruined fish breeding, great information!
It has not ruined fish breeding. If you don’t like OBs and Dragonbloods just don’t breed them. Simple.
Awesome video. I was hoping you’d also release that video you talked about making on the Dart Frog beginner guide.
I was also wondering if you recommended Josh’s Frogs.
You mean the video about dart frog breeding? That one is in the works, but first I need to record the growth of my tadpoles from eggs to froglets, so it’ll be out this summer.
I’m Swedish so I can’t say anything about Josh's from experience, but iirc there has been a bit of controversy surrounding them occasionally (though definitely not anything too bad). Check out dartfrogbusisesses.com for a list of reputable breeders and companies in the US. Josh’s isn’t on that list. If I was in the US, my choice would probably be FrogDaddy or Houston Frogs.
@@Tropical_Tutorials thank you for the update and the advice!!
I loooove your channel :)
I'm glad you're still active. It seems like the other great dart frog channels I like have retired/semi retired.
Great video buddy!
Another awesome do you have any videos in depth about quarantining ?
I actually don’t have a video about that, and I’d be the wrong person to make one since I pretty much don’t quarantine my new frogs (I probably should, but I only buy from reliable Swedish breeders so the risk is extremely small, since wild caught animals are illegal in Sweden)
@@Tropical_Tutorials Ok I should be fine then because I'm buying from a reputable breeder as well. I just want to make sure Im doing things right as to no hurt my frog. Thank you
@@alberto2alvarez14I would recommend quarantine to everyone, simply because every breeder has different conditions and bacteria, and animals that come back from an exhibition should also be quarantined. Chytrid fungus is currently a big problem in Germany (theoretically, in the worst case, it is enough for a breeder to take moss from the forest and endanger all frogs). Quarantine is not difficult. Set up a terrarium with the minimum equipment to make it as easy to clean as possible in a separate room and observe the new animals for at least 4 weeks, paying particular attention to signs of disease. If nothing is noticeable after a while, you can put the new ones with the others without any risk.
Thankyou for this video, i have a dendrobates tinctorius i was going to put the little anthonyi with him as i thought they wouldnt breed due to their size and being of another name epidobates but i know better now, thanks to your video, i dont want my tinc to fight or kill them, so im going to get them a tank of their own:)
Sounds good
After years of experaince keeping frogs, you can try it, but there really is no good reason since you need would have a back up tanks available anyway, in case you need to separate them.
Yes is "can work" but it is an ethical question since there is some risk.
That's a very reasonable and respectable take.
I basically agree with it for the most part, with the exception that I think that the risk of something going wrong (by that I mean the risk in a large enough vivarium with well chosen species according to the thinking points I brought up in the video, of course the risk would be much higher if you throw random frogs together) is usually a bit exaggerated and running into issues is a lot less common than many people make it seem (once again: in well planned vivariums with well chosen species). This is based on both my own experiences and the experiences of plenty of reputable breeders I personally know (mostly from the Swedish community, where mixing is a lot less taboo than it seems to be in the American community). However, if in doubt it's certainly always better to follow your logic than to take a risk
@@Tropical_Tutorials Whats the motive for taking even a tiny risk? It certainly couldnt be the well-being of the frogs.
@@vids595 I'm still a beginner in terrariums, but I already have over 20 years of experience in keeping and breeding various birds. Reasons for keeping different species together and the problems are practically the same. The reasons: better use of space if I keep purely bottom-dwelling species with species that only live in the upper area. a visually more interesting overall picture, which is of course a matter of taste. In some cases, combining different species can also help keep the aviary/terrarium easier to care for. This explicitly doesn't mean that you can just put whatever you like together, you need a lot of background knowledge to be able to estimate which combination will work. There is always a residual risk when you care for animals, technology can fail, illnesses, accidents... My opinion is that we as owners have responsibility for our animals, completely excluding risks can mean reducing the quality of life of the animals (I have pigeons in free flight even though there are falcons). Which risk you accept and why everyone has to decide for themselves.
I have a question for you what plants do you normally use in your dart frog vivarium I’m trying to get some but just hard to find and don’t know which ones are good for them
Here's my playlist about dart frog care for beginners. One of the videos in it is all about vivarium plants and should answer your questions.
ruclips.net/p/PLapmCIGTL73fu81Ycqbj90cN5vP_uyJRI
I have a 92 cm x 45 x 45 vertical Insitu Enclosure. I house four Phillobates Vittatus. Would you think they will do ok with Dendrobates leucomelas?
If it’s set up properly it could probably work (I know plenty of experiences people that keep the leucs with vittatus, but in slightly bigger vivariums), but wouldn’t try to push the number of frogs in there to the limit. Maybe you could consider adding 1 or 2 leucs, but I wouldn’t do more
My Leucomelas are always climbing in the tall plant haha
What are the little white bugs you are feeding the young frogs? Can you ship to Texas USA ?
Most of my frogs are fed flightless flightless fruit flies powdered in (white) vitamin supplements (Repashy Calcium Plus to be specific). I also give springtails, which are also white, every now and then, I live in Sweden so sadly I don’t ship overseas, but you should be able to find some feeder insects near you.
I think leucomals will do really well with ranitomeya amazonica. What do you think ? We are talking 60x45x90cm
Those two species would most likely be compatible, but as always, you should keep an eye out
I had 3 Dendrobates Tinctorius cobalts in my 18x18 viv. The big blue gal also suffocated her tank mates, one even had broken bone 😢 be very careful! Poor babies
Sorry to hear that. I assume you had at least two females?
Tinctorius are known to be on the more aggressive side compared to most other dart frogs, and as I said in the video, I don’t keep them with any other species (except when I mix froglets, which aren’t territorial yet), so you don’t have to worry about that happening in my mixed tanks. They can work in really tall mixed tanks if the other species is arboreal, but it’s safest to keep them by themselves.
I’m currently cohabiting auratus, auratus “ancon hill”, leucomela, and azureus together, just provide hiding spots and enough food, no issues with aggression.
That's very interesting to hear. How long have you had them together for and how old are they? As long as you don't raise and sell any of their offspring (since all the frogs in your setup can hybridize), I don't see any big issue with the leucomelas and auratus, but I'd personally be on the lookout about the Azureus since tinctorius is generally quite a territorial species that I wouldn't put together with any other terrestrial frogs. It can take a long time before they show their territorial side, so it might be fine for years and then go badly very quickly all of a sudden.
What about keeping the same species but different colors of that species?
You’re talking about different locales of the same species, which, as I said in the video, shouldn’t be kept together due to the risk for crossbreeds. We want to keep the locales pure to avoid losing track of what we have.
There are some locales that can vary in color within the same locale. E.g. Dendrobates tinctorius ’Green Sipalawini’ can, despite what the name suggests, be green, blue or yellow (even frogs from the same clutch can have completely different colors), and those colors can be kept together as long as they’re all Green Sipalawini.
Do you think it would be possible to mix phyllobates terribilis with tinctorius dart frogs if the tank is large enough (200+ gallons)? I know tincs can have aggression issues but with a frog as large as a terribilis do you think it would still get bullied? If the tincs are males would it be less of a worry? Also do you think keeping clown tree frogs with darts would be a possibility since they fill different niches and wouldn’t outcompete one another?
I'd personally avoid the tincs with terribilis when you have so many much safer mixes to choose from (terribilis with D. auratus, D. leucomelas or E. anthonyi are fairly common and successful, I actually keep my breeding groups of P. vittatus and E. anthonyi together at the moment). I have a hard time believing that the tincs would manage to kill the terribilis or anything like that, and it could be successful, but 200 gallons isn't really that big (probably smaller than one frog's territory in the wild) and it wouldn't be easy to spot any underlying stress (fights might occur when you're not at home). The only frogs I'd personally consider keeping with tincs are small and outgoing thumbnails, such as Ranitomeya amazonica and Ranitomeya variabilis (other more shy Ranitomeya species may or may not have trouble competing for food), in a tall vivarium where the tinctorius basically can't/won't access the areas where the thumbnails hang out.
I wouldn't do tree frogs with dart frogs due to the difference in diet. I definitely don't want to put any crickets in my dart frog tanks, since there is a risk that they grow up and hurt the dart frogs or munch on the plants. I also just hate crickets in general, and find tree frogs really uninteresting since they sleep all day :) Maybe it's possible to feed them dubias in a dish or tong feed them every night, I honestly don't know tree frogs well at all, so take my answer with a grain of salt, but I personally don't care enough to try. If you do want to keep tree frogs with dart frogs, it's important to pick a small species (which clown tree frogs seem to be) since bigger ones could realistically swallow a dart frog.
@@Tropical_Tutorials ok, thank you for the reply, keep up the good work!
@@Tropical_Tutorials what size tank would you suggest for a pair of tincs and a pair of Amazonicas?
@@jasonz8096I’d probably do a 45x45x90 cm (18x18x36 inches) or bigger
I have a Dendrobate Tinc Azureus female by it's self in a 29 gallon, wanted just one more Dendorbate Tinc, are they ok with different types of Tincs? No I dont want to breed, plan for two females. I know tincs are aggressive but would it make a difference if I had two of the same Tincs vs two types of tincs?
Probably wouldn’t put two female tincs together in there regardless if they’re the same ones or different, since the females are generally very territorial towards each other, especially if they haven’t grown up together. If I was in your situation, I’d definitely add a male Azureus. It’s significantly safer than adding another female and there’s no need to pull eggs from them if you don’t want to (and tinctorius aren’t able to consistently reproduce on their own in the vivarium since they don’t feed their tadpoles with feeder eggs), but breeding is also really easy and fun (I recently made a complete guide on it). You can raise however many or few you want, so you won’t get overrun by froglets
@@Tropical_Tutorials ok, never knew females were more territorial than the males, that's good to know. Wish there was an easy way to get a male, I get my frogs from Josh's frogs but they are just random male or female that they ship to you.
@@skinnyandshort7108 You should be able to find someone with an extra adult male if you join some local dart frog communities (like local FB groups or maybe a forum with a marketplace) and have some patience
I've seen Epipedobates Anthonyi be kept with Phyllobates Terribllis.
I'd probably do the same when I get some frogs.
Yeah that’s one of the more common, less problematic combinations, so if you keep an eye out and the vivarium is large, you have a good chance of success.
@@Tropical_Tutorials Out of curiosity, would P. Vittatus and E. Anthonyi also work together? Planned viv is an 18x36 40 gallon.
@@memebird9494 I actually keep those together right now (I put them together about 6 months ago iirc, I had to redo the vittatus tank so I put them with the anthonyi and, as I expected, it’s worked really well so far). Of course one single case of them being fine together for 6 months on its own isn’t enough to 100% guarantee that it’ll work out long term, but it’s a tried and tested combination and I’ve never heard of anyone having issues with any Phyllobates+anthonyi combo.
As always, caution is advised when mixing species and if you’re a beginner I’d still start out with one species per tank, but it’s certainly one of the combinations that is much more likely to work than some others
@@Tropical_Tutorials Thank you! Thats great to hear. I have kept dart frogs before but its been several years since I last did. My plan is to start with the vittatus and add the anthonyi later. I already have a backup plan in case anything does go wrong. I have a second (unoccupied) viv that I can put the anthonyi into in that scenario.
I mean I kinda think of it like tropical fish, you need to know how to manage aggression. The reason fish can go cross species so well is mostly because the 3d environment means there is way more space available in a 10 gallon for fish then the frogs since frogs cant fly. I mean a great way to cohab animals is to choose animals that dont bother each other, in cases where one animal is able to eat the other you need the prey species to be able to reproduce faster then they are eaten, for example if I kept a cane toad with mourning geckos in a large and very tall enclosure then the geckos would both be too fast for the toad to catch easily and be able to replenish any losses due to their fast breeding.
Cane toads however would be almost impossible to keep with dart frogs due to them being grounded, another gecko like a crested gecko would also be a bad choice due to still being within the size range for the toad to eat while not being able to reproduce in the average terrarium, or at least not fast enough for the toads to not potentially eat them all.
If I want a cane toad vivarium and to cohab animals with it I need species like the mourning gecko that can reliably get away and reproduce or a species that is too large to be eaten while also not attacking the cane toad such as maybe a giant waxy monkey frog. A male cane toad and a female giant waxy monkey frog are of similar sizes and will rarely interact in a large enough enclosure so, they also live in relatively similar climates and even are found in many of the same places. Now this isnt to say I would ever do this but it is more then doable and could be very impressive if done correctly.
Its like how some people manage to keep neon tetras with piranhas, a large enough school of neons can effectively use their schooling to prevent predation while adult piranhas generally dont target small fish. The issue with this is it requires a specific setup and a large aquarium so most people simply cant do it.
You make some good points, even though they're a lot more general rather than focused on dart frogs.
However, having any vertebrates that regularly predate on other living vertebrates in a vivarium (regardless of how fast the prey animal reproduces) would be considered unethical by many and strictly violate at least the Swedish animal protection legislation. Our legislation here basically says that any vertebrate feeder animals must be humanely euthanized before being fed to another animal to avoid unnecessary suffering (many interpret an exception for cases where it's absolutely necessary to feed live prey to snakes refusing to eat dead food etc, since letting the snake starve would also be unnecessary suffering, but that's besides the point).
It's difficult to draw an ethical line between live feeding of insects (which I think is fine and in many cases necessary), and feeding live big mammals (which would probably upset most people), but many (including both me and the Swedish animal protection laws) think it's suitable to draw that line between invertebrates and vertebrates. Therefore, the only mixed vivariums that I condone are the ones where predation between the animals isn't even a realistic possibility at all (unless the predated-upon species is an invertebrate, such as the springtails and isopods in our vivariums).
@@Tropical_Tutorials I personally dont really see the issue, I keep a lot of fish and inevitably smaller ones are eaten by larger ones. Fish are no less intelligent then other vertebrates even if that is the common belief. In my opinion so long as the conditions are good and the animals have the opportunity to live a long life then there is not ethical issue, the threat of predation exists for animals in nature. I dont keep cane toads and mourning geckos together and I likely never will, but if you know both animals you know that in a large vivarium that the predation rates would be very very low. Cane toads are slow moving and poor climbers while mourning geckos are literally the opposite, in a large vivarium cannibalism would outpace toad predation by a mile.
Now if someone was throwing mourning geckos in a 10 gallon with a cane toad they would obviously be eaten and I would take issue with that, however if kept in a sufficiently large environment such as a greenhouse or an enclosure that is perhaps the size of a large closet then I would take no issue. The reality is the chances of predation in this case are low and the geckos would have every opportunity to escape and trying to avoid any sort of predation in a vivarium is really just a silly thing considering the microfauna.
There simply isnt a line you can draw between what predation is ethical and what isnt, if I keep guppies and a large % of the babies are eaten by a another fish or even the parents that obviously isnt unethical since its practically unavoidable.
It is really just up to your gut because morals and ethics are truly made up, that law was most likely intended for the feeding or rodents to snakes. I am very against animal abuse, but to me animal abuse doesnt look like a large vivarium where occasional predation occurs.
My gut tells me those people who buy various pets to feed to a pac man frog or African bullfrog are monsters though so I am sure we have that in common.
Please do a new room tour!🥹
I’ve already recorded one and I’m working on the editing. I’ll release it on saturday a week from now
What if the tank is 109 gallons?
If it’s set up properly with well chosen species, it would have a good chance of working out, but as I mentioned in the video, if you have to ask it might be better to get some experience before trying a mixed tank
Can you home dart frogs and red eye tree frogs together
I wouldn't personally do it, but I don't have much experience with any tree frogs. They have different food requirements (red eyes take on much larger prey items compared to their own size compared to darts; you wouldn't want crickets running around in my dart frog vivarium, though you could potentially get around this by tong feeding etc). There could also a potential risk that they red eyes might actually eat the dart frogs if it's a smaller species. It might have a chance of working if you do a large dart frog species (tincs, terribilis, auratus, leucomelas), but I wouldn't try it with any smaller ones. Probably a good time to bring back the quote "if you have to ask, you shouldn't mix", or at least find someone more experienced with tree frogs than me to ask about it
@Tropical_Tutorials thank you
I've heard and seen tree frogs like clown tree frogs, glass tree frogs and even red eyes with darts.
I’ve heard about a few successful instances of this as well, but extra caution should be taken if there’s any size difference, since tree frogs can take on significantly bigger prey items (relative to their own size) than dart frogs can. It can still work with well chosen species, but I’d definitely prefer dart frogs w/ small geckos or dart frogs w/ other dart frogs (once again, if they’re compatible species)
@@Tropical_Tutorials yea that's true, I've even seen Josh's frogs on their website saying some like lemurs, bird poops, hourglass, and clown tree frogs being successfully kept with leucs, auratus, and tincs.
Ive been having my auratus green and blac, highland bronze, and pena blanca, together almost a year now, neext soon to be super blue, i dont see any sign of aggression or stress towards one another every feeding theyll gather up and eat together like foster kids but im making sure they dont breed which ik forsure my green and black is a male cos he be calling but this and my 2nd tank will only be the only one thats diverse
If they're capable of breeding then nature expects intermingling. The only issue I can see being a problem is the possible elimination of certain species because the hybrids get confused for them. But I also see that as a risk of nature. These things happened naturally long before humans ever had the thought to preserve species. That's not to say you shouldn't be proactive about preservation, but you shouldn't stop evolution in it's entirety. There's a method to the madness, even if we don't like it
The thing is, in most cases, the dart frogs that are capable of crossbreeding (whether that be different species of the same genus that can hybridize or different localities of the same species that can crossbreed) typically live in vastly different geographical areas in the wild. That's why we refer to the frogs as "localities" rather than "morphs". There might be transitional zones between some very specific locales out there, and some locales can vary a lot in appearance (tinctorius Green Sipaliwini is a great example), but that's not something that's easy to take into account in the hobby (I personally don't know of any specific transitional zones like this at all, and I don't have any interest of replicating that in the hobby). If you keep Dendrobates tinctorius Brazil and Dendrobates tinctorius Azureus together and they breed, you absolutely can not excuse it by saying that "nature expects intermingling" and calling it the continued evolution, because they come from completely different countries and wouldn't meet naturally.
With that said, I wouldn't say that somebody is ruining the entire hobby by creating hybrids as long as they don't release those said hybrids on the market, and to be fair, I think it's very unlikely that a few hybrids would completely ruin the hobby bloodlines, but the hobby most definitely wouldn't encourage it.
Hate the saying if you have to ask then its no. How about i ask so i dont waste time researching specific species that can never be combined lol. Time is money
Fair enough, that's one way to put it, and I certainly see that saying is a bit weird (and not good or possible to fully abide, since consulting with experienced keepers is great if you're about to attempt a mixed vivarium later down the line), but I still think the saying has some value. There's nothing wrong with asking the question, but we tend to give that answer since mixing species isn't really recommended to beginners. Ideally I recommend gathering some experience by learning how dart frogs work with one species per tank, before attempting a mixed vivarium. If potentially doing slightly research than necessary is considered a waste of time, then maybe it's time to wait a bit before trying to mix different species :) With that said, if you want to attempt a mixed species tank at some point, it's definitely great to consult with experienced keepers (which kind of goes against "the saying")
@@Tropical_Tutorials many thanks for your reply. Over the course of time ive been researching paludariums and darts i simply notice the exsperienced people seem to flame new comers to the hobby. Google search is a mixed bag on comunity tanks so there is not answear and certainly no scientific fact might i add. So maybe just a tip for the "exsperienced" dart keeper, best to have more in the hobby then not. Just give them the facts of why its not a good idea. Which you do ofc but others are quick to roll thier eyes. Least im always super excited to answear questions about a hobby im into. Id never crap on someone for asking a wrong question about the hobby.
@@zorezaza8016 Yeah, I totally agree that the dart frog community is extremely toxic at times (and honestly, a lot of the times the toxicity in FB groups comes from newer keepers giving straight up incorrect advice without elaborating). Whenever the question about mixed tanks is asked, a lot of people give very short answers without including the whole picture. That’s why I made this video. I just mentioned the ”saying” towards the end of it because it still summarizes my opinion (on whether mixed tanks can/should be done) pretty well. However I’d never answer only that short sentence, without any further explanation, to a newcomer asking about it.
@@Tropical_Tutorials indeed and really enjoy your videos this far, thanks!
Man..... I would LOVE to keep tinctorius cobalt and leucomelas together! UGH!
☠️
Yeah I definitely wouldn’t do that for multiple reasons, but see it from the bright side: now you have a great excuse to build another vivarium