Leaving out horrible stereotypes that only existed as a gag? I guess it would have to be Northstar from the Alpha Flight comics. Though that was more people telling me he was gay than it being something I noticed. If not him then Smithers from the Simpsons would definitely be one I noticed... Or did Ninja Scroll beat them to the punch? Firsts are hard when you have a bad memory.
I will love Tolkien forever for having Eowyn tell Aragorn, “All your words are but to say: ‘you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more.’” And then she shows up to the battle and saves the day. I love her.
Tolkien is a product of his time and cultural views on sex, gender, and race are problematic by modern sensibilities. The common criticism that his main characters were all male is valid. However, he also wrote a female character who is told to stay home by the men in her life, defies them and sneaks off to war, then during battle finds the baddest, most terrifying monster on the field and stabs it in the face. So there’s that. Also, something I always appreciated is that of the three elven rings of power, one is worn by Galadriel, which she used to rule Lothlorien. She’s married and her husband Celeborn is like right there, but she’s the one in charge, she did almost all the talking with the fellowship, and her struggle with the one ring is the only one we’re shown. But no one is like, “Celeborn, control your wife!” Everyone just accepts that she’s the ruler.
As an aroace person, lotr's potrayal of close platonic relationships was really important to me. Like, Legolas and Gimli are platonic life parters and you can't convince me otherwise. I also see the romantic reading as an important part of lotr for the reasons this video pointed out.
@@MaggieMaeFish That's fantastic! I'm happy to hear that! Friends are so lovely and wonderful to have 💚🖤💜 I hope to marry my best friend who's also aroace some day lolll tax benefits~
Broke: Lord of the Rings is really gay 😣 Woke: Lord of the Rings depicts wholesome male friendship without having to romanticise or sexualise them Bespoke: Lord of the Rings is really gay 😍
The real woke take is “LOTR is about wholesome, physically affectionate male friendship AND male romantic relationships.” One shouldn’t be all or nothing when reading the book. There’s room for both.
I remember watching the Lord of the Rings movies as a heterosexual teenaged boy when they first came out and being mostly oblivious to the LGBTQ subtext; however, when I finally got around to reading the original novels in my late 20s I remember being struck by heavily so many of the characters interactions read as gay romantic relationships. While the video focused heavily on Frodo and Sam and I remember being struck by how much the book version of Legolas and Gimli feel like a couple. I think that what's interesting about Tolkien is that even the heterosexual relationships that are explicitly called out in the text as romantic are incredibly chaste in their presentation, and I think that that is also part of the reason that an LGBTQ reading feels like such a natural fit. This is a world completely unconcerned with the sexual aspects of romantic relationships, and that shifts how we think about romantic relationships between the characters. We're not viewing this in the context of "Are Frodo and Sam fucking?" but "Do Frodo and Sam love each other?".
indeed, since there weren't any words for sexual orientations back in the olden days i'd assume the same goes for any language of arda. just variations of the word 'love'. (speaking of which i'm pretty sure 'friend' and 'lover' are the same thing in elvish)
@@kloggmonkey you actually just reminded me that the whole conceit of Tolkien's LOTR related works is that they where translations of works by Bilbo preserved in the Thain's Book which JRR "somehow" got ahold of. That adds a whole new layer of (conceptual) translation issues to examine for queer subtext
“When I viewed it through a sexualized lens i was able to attach sexuality to any interaction” It’s wild how gay people can’t come up with their own things. Bunch of feigh goats round these parts.
One of the less talked about grievances I have with the "why can't they just be friends?" question is that it implies that a mlm relationship can't also be a good example of general male camaraderie.
My problems with "why not just friends" also include a) the double standard applied to straight relationships and b) that romance is not part of friendship, which I've always considered a rather toxic idea. News flash to the incels: a friendship is also a relationship and romance is still in the "friend zone"
Yes thank you!! As someone who's aroace, seeing people talk down friendships constantly is so exhausting and insulting for these very reasons. And also "why can't men just be friends" you *have* so much media of men just being friends already, let us have this omg
@@cowabungasheeit As an arospec I would agree with you. I don't like romance as the pinnacle of relationships. I think that just because people ship it, doesn't mean it should be portrayed in canon. I think we should be able to have mlm representation beside male friendship, and I think that people shipping two straight male characters shouldn't be seen as a vicious attack on male heterosexuality.
@@PalomaDreams17 can I steal "I don't like romance as the pinnacle of relationships"? That is the perfect summation of all my thoughts too, I never thought to put it like that.
"You're a child. You don't even understand. You are trying to hurt me with the thing that is my greatest strength." That line that Molly dropped hit me so hard.
I got a lot of deeply important meaning in a more platonic reading of LotR, the concept that platonic love can be so profoundly powerful is something I don't see a lot of and, as somebody who puts a lot of emphasis on the platonic bonds in my life, it feels nice to see a film that can be read as putting such bonds of brotherhood and found family in roles traditionally reserved for a het romantic story. *BUT* that doesn't invalidate any overtly homosexual readings of the story and, if anything, should encourage it more. What I so deeply love about the story is that it CAN speak so deeply to so many people, and to deny the LGBT+ readings of the story would be a crime against art as far as I'm concerned. I love the platonic reading because it makes me feel seen, and that's a feeling I'd want everybody to feel.
That's why I love it as well! I'm aromatic and it really generally bothers me when romantic relationships are seen as the ultimate form of love, or immediately assumed that romantic relationships are closer than platonic ones, or even that it is unquestioned that lovers would run into a burning building for each other but it is weird or requires an explanation if the same is assumed with a friendship.
I like this reading as well because I read LoTR as a child, so to me romantic stories were... uncomfortable and hard to understand. But I could understand love and platonic love. So for a long time I had discussions with people who saw more than a platonic relationship, because it bothered me that the characters just could not love each other without being romantic. But as I grew up, I understood that there can be multiple readings, and all are valid.
It's been kinda interesting for me realising I'm ace/aro, one of the coolest things is finding all this vocabulary on how many different types of love and attraction their are. And how their all meaningful and valid.
1st off, I'm only 7 minutes into this as I'm writing this but just thank you for acknowledging Aromantic (like me) and ace people's. Nice to feel seen.
I was a pre-teen when LOTR was in theaters, and finally seeing men in media unashamedly exhibiting stereotypical "feminine" qualities like tenderness and open affection for one another was so powerful to me. As an ace, the sexual reading never crossed my mind until much later; but as a nascent NB, I'm convinced that those films opened that gender-fluid door in my mind.
Really enjoyed this video buuuuut... "my love"/"my lover" are essentially used as punctuation in Westcountry English (i.e. the dialect Sméagol and Déagol speak in the film). Total strangers will call each other "my love" in that region, so it's a bit of a stretch to call it textual evidence of a homoromantic relationship
In the German version I think they tried to sell sailor uranos as a boy who turns into a girl. Yeah sure, like children don't have eyes. I wanted to be sailor neptune so much ❤️
0:40 "Gosh, I remember my friend Beth and I used to stay up late at night just talking about [beat] things like that...oh, pardon me, I got lost in the memory." Nah, just two gals bein' pals and whatnot.
So this video just made me realize that a story I wrote that got picked apart in a college class because "are these ladies just really intense friends? Are they gay? Can't you be more clear? I don't get it" was just not a straight story for a straight audience who has never wrestled with not understanding that they don't understand their feelings and I can't express how validating that is and that it has brought my passion for that story back. Like, I'm actually gonna go dust it off and keep working on it now
that's such a good point! implications and subtext are, for a lot of queer people, extremely important for finding meaning and solidarity (both in real life and in fiction). I hadn't really considered that "straight stories" are also straightforward stories: everything is spelled out in terms of feelings and romantic relationships. I'm so glad you revisited your story, i hope it brings you greater joy and freedom now!
Ugh I just finished it and it was SO. GOOD. How is it not better rated??? I’m glad it’s getting a sequel though. I do wonder if it’s an action movie for non-action movie fans, cause I normally find action and superhero movies kinda boring...
I personally read/watched LoTR and got an entirely platonic feel off of it. I was 13 when I first read it. I didn’t admit I was bisexual till I was in my mid twenties! I completely respect everyone’s interpretation, I can see how the male relationships in LoTR could be inspiring and romantic. But the platonic interpretation I had was so powerful to me. I was raised extremely religious, and was indoctrinated with the idea that I couldn’t be friends with the opposite gender because it would always become romantic. Yet since I was bi I couldn’t get “too close” to female friends either because... oh no! 😂 To me, Sam and Frodo being so incredibly close without an outward projecting romantic relationship was beyond heart warming. It helped me be friends with men and women without always viewing things through a romantic lens.
Yeah I don't see what we are gaining here by characterizing a close relationship between two men as obviously gay either, there are people who already do that who we ostensibly don't agree with
Whether you read the relationships in LOTR as gay or not, I think it's refreshing to see a bunch of tender, emotionally rich male friendships portrayed so unabashedly in such a major piece of pop culture, especially a pillar of nerd culture in particular. None of the main characters exhibit stereotypical toxically masculine action movie hero traits - you don't have a Han Solo-esque rogue who shoots first, asks questions later, and has his way with women. The two major straight relationships (Aragorn and Arwen, Sam and... whatshername) are either barely touched on (in Sam's case) or based entirely in mutual yearning. It also shows a lot of restraint on the filmmaker's part to NOT turn Aragorn into a swaggering, swashbuckling bad boy, because they VERY easily could have (see what they did to Kili in The Hobbit trilogy, and Thorin to a lesser extent). It makes me wonder if that's why you don't seem to run into the same toxicity in Tolkien fan groups as you do in groups devoted to, say, comics or Star Wars.
Omg I just wrote a comment saying basically the same but then I read yours and you explained it so much better But I totally agree, I don't want to "gay-wash" complex and not traditionally hegemonic masculinities Wich we don't get a lot of
Her name is Rose 😂 Rosie Cotton, farmer Cotton's daughter. I can't remember real people's names, but ask me about any random, barely mentioned LotR character 😬😅
And the one Fellowship example of swaggering masculinity, Boromir, transpires to not have been doing it by nature but performing the role he feels is expected of him - and it ends up being an increasingly damaging thing he ends up deeply regretting and attempting to undo the harm he has done with it.
Just got me thinking, Andy wandering alone for aaaages before finding another like her, and then how they all gravitate towards each other because of their dreams---just reminded me there was one ""token gay"" in my high school friend group,,, and now years later I think there's only like two people in that same group who still ID as cishet 😂 We just gravitated towards each other! Even more specifically: asexuality is about 1% of the population, yet there's me and four of my friends whom I met in school and we're all ace and/or aro, didn't even have to search online for them haha The Old Guard is so gay and I loved it so much (Am I commenting multiple times because i have lots to say or is it engagement for the algorithm? Both it's both)
As a cishet guy struggling to rebuild after leaving a cult-like evangelical family, the moment starting at 18:40 hits really hard. Especially "when parts of your identity are denied from you, part of the coming-out process is looking back at your life and seeing events in a new light." Between the strangeness of leaving that world of belief and coming to understand being neuroatypical, it's so hard to find that sense of "sameness" and mutual understanding even among people who do accept me. Just the way you described it made it so real on an emotional level... idk. Also, just a great video. Keep making this content.
Yes! I was similarly touched by that section you quoted, as a cishet guy currently developing a deeper appreciation of my own challenges/struggles with neurodivergence as an adult. Just so much of my life is making more sense, now that I have the words and concepts to express and understand it.
So here's my brief have your cake and eat it take: Frodo is ace, Sam is Bi. Sam's unrequited love is expressed without ever overstepping the boundaries.
I WAS JUST THINKING THAT!!! Sorry for the caps 😂. But it perfectly fits their relationships, including Sam’s jealousy of Gollum and Frodo’s rather thick response to it 😂🤦🏽♀️. Dear, sweet, oblivious Frodo...
@@sonorasgirl I think it's one interesting reading of the text. Tolkien himself was pretty 'no-homo' about the whole thing and I think it's fair to also read into it the platonic love based on the camaraderie between those who've experienced trauma (in Tolkien's case the first world war). But it can be both, that's one of the great things about art. It speaks to different people in different times in different ways.
The relationship between Sam and Frodo is based a lot in the relationship of soldiers in the trenches of WW1 (which Tolkien fought). The grim and horrific life in the trenches made a lot of men to seek affection it every possible way the could and also helped gay men (which was a big no no back then( to express themselves more freely . Justifies IMO that Lord of the Rings promotes men to be OK with bring vulnerable and embrace their more feminine side
Don't have to be a lady. I'm increasingly learning that, if I think a woman stands out as hot anong other beautiful women, I will later find out they are lesbian.
@@ZipplyZane I never said anyone had to be a lady to agree with the sentiment, only that my comment was directed toward other women. I'm also not sure why you felt the need to let us know that your attraction to women is tied to some sort of gaydar, but uh, good for you I suppose.
I just discovered your channel and I cannot pass the fact the moment I heard your voice it reminded me of "Regarding the prejudices on my client, Addisson Cain" and other readings of the lawyer's letters/mails from the videos of Lindsay Ellis and I can't unheard it !
Gotta be honest, LOTR is such an amazing representation of deep, healthy male friendship that i don't think any other reading is nearly as useful or meaningful. Healthy male frienships like that are actually extremely uncommon in art. I think yall just need better friends to get it.
People should read C.S. Lewis's "The Four Loves" in which he discusses four kinds of love (there are four Greek words translated as 'love'). Yes, Lewis says patronizing things about women, and downright foolish things about male homosexuality, and his whole thesis is refracted through his usual Christian lens; but there is also a lot of good insight to be found there. And he mentions his love (not erotic) for Tolkien.
You know, not enough talk about how gay Moby Dick is. I literally had to stop reading several times because I couldnt believe this book was written two centuries ago. I don't believe anything can be as gay as Moby Dick.
When I read it and in the first few chapters Ishmael and Quequeg have a slapstick misunderstanding in the inn and then end up sharing a bed and wake up cuddling, they then go around New Bedford (?) And even Ishmael's narration comments that they were so friendly with one another that people thought it was strange and funny but they didn't even mind....I was honestly rereading it to try and find a non-gay reading.
The British censors had a field day with those early chapters, but for the American edition Melville had stereotyped plates commissioned for the text in advance of finding a publisher, partly so that none of it could be changed.
The Old Guard was legit one of my favorite films of 2020 and that monologue in the van was so beautiful. Talking about that movie and that scene with my best friend fiinally gave me that last little bit of courage to come out to her.
Man, where was this video ten years ago when my college advisor shot down my academic study proposal to study non-heteronormative gender and sexuality expressions in LOTR?! Thank you for putting this concept into such a well rounded discussion!
I feel like Hobbits can definitely be representative of third gender in general. The males always lean a bit stereotypically feminine, and the females always lean a bit stereotypically masculine, at least based on what I remember.
Even if you exclude the physical hobbits don't have the rigid gender roles that men do. They live in a fairly equal agrarian society. I'm not up on the nonbinary lingo but they might be considered apathetic towards gender, not sure what the word for that would be. Like if you called Frodo she then he would just roll with it and let you because it isn't as entrenched for him as it would be someone like Boromir, who would instantly correct you.
If @hobbitgay doesn't get a mention, Lord help me, Maggie Mae, I will write a stern tweet. (Sees Molly and puts the stern tweet away.) You win this time, Maggie, you win this time.
I think it's incredibly important to read Lord of the Rings as a story of deep Platonic friendships between people of the same sex, particularly men, since friendships between men, while often represented in media, are often depicted as exclusively interacting through very surface level joking and mocking, or lean overly on militant camaraderie and machismo. The kind of relationships that Lord of the Rings depicts between men, with deep genuine care and tender moments, is rare and should be celebrated. I also think it's incredibly important to read it as a LGBTQ+ story, because firstly, representation is important and that should honestly be enough. More than that though, the same things that make those relationships incredibly important as platonic relationships make them very important depictions of romantic relationships as well. It's of particular note that Aragorn, who is essentially Tolkien's idea of the ideal man, demonstrates traits which are, unfortunately, not typically considered "masculine:" tenderness, gentleness and emotional maturity in both his platonic and romantic relationships, and therefore we can see that these traits are what Tolkien considered ideal in all positive relationships. That being the case, I think there's a completely legitimate case for both platonic and romantic readings of the relationships in his work, because they showcase those same traits.
Excellent point. Tolkien does a beautiful job at writing chastity, in that even the romantic relationships aren’t sexualized, so there’s almost no real difference between the platonic and romantic connections; it’s just always tender love, expressed fully and openly and honestly. Even Gimli going gaga over Galadriel is not a sexual attraction whatsoever, just an admiration of the beauty of not just her face and hair, but also her heart, in her kindness and respect for his being a Dwarf, which he is not used to receiving from an Elf. But he never says anything creepy about her like “heh, too bad she’s married” nor does he ask Eomer “would you rather sleep with Galadriel or Arwen?” It’s a very polite, very chivalric admiration of a woman’s “fairness” with no interest in spoiling or violating that fairness.
I'm straight and cis but I am autistic. I spent years and years growing up trying to hide my autism, I was afraid to tell people for fear of being picked on (more) in school, even many family members. I felt shame, I was uncomfortable seeing depictions of it. It took me a long time to deprogram myself from that, I didn't even tell my own best friend until I was 21 and I was half drunk when I did. It's only been the last few years that I can embrace my autism as something that makes me different but not less. So while it's not exactly the same, I can only imagine how many gay, lesbian, trans and others have parallel experiences of being different but struggling mentally the same way I did with something that even more people are ignorant and hateful towards. I hope everyone going through that finds their way out of that fear, empty shame and they can learn to embrace themselves fully.
I was a huge LotR fan from a young age, and I spent hours in the lore and languages and poems. I had never seen it this way before. Thank you for broadening my perspective, and my lens of reading. This was very profound, and I appreciate it.
This was really, really nice. I was kind of scared you were going to rip LotR apart, but instead there a lot of thoughtfulness and love without pretending it was completely unproblematic. Thanks for making this :)
I think the many different interpretations possible only prove that Tolkien created a viable mythology. The fact that people keep wanting to retell the stories shows how much depth they encompass.
As an aro man, reading the love in the LOTR as romantic/sexual would deeply, deeply, cheapen it for me since there are so many examples of romantic love, but far fewer examples of men unabashedly showing, and being comfortable with, their platonic love for one another.
I’m also aro and feel exactly the same. To me it’s always been a wonderful example of platonic love and men feeling secure in showing their emotions and deep affection for each other, and the vital need for intimate friendship. Viewing it as at all romantic really destroys everything I love so much about it and brings into sharp focus how society dismisses platonic love and uses the term “love” only in terms of romance. Something this video is guilty of.
Its interesting to me because I always thought lotr has room for all readings. I never read Sam/Frodo as romantic for example and the sheer strength of the platonic love and their dedication to each other to be the the beauty of their relationship. Meanwhile Pippin and Merry particularly struck me as strongly romantic and that meant a lot to me too in terms of there being no romantic gay representation in fantasy at that time (and very little mainstream). Not to mention the dynamic between aragorn, gimli and legolas. As a result I see all versions as equally valuable and I wouldn't call any version "cheap".
While I'm happy the LGBT community got a lot from these characters and their stories, it's kind of sad that everything is so hyper sexualised that two people of the same sex can't show care and love for each other and still just be friends.
Petty nitpick but hey, it fuels the algorithm: Nile is killed the first time by having her throat slashed, not a gunshot to the chest. But anyway, thank you for talking about these movies!
Its weird how some men hate women and yet are terrifed of the idea of being gay. Like if they could marry their best bro and have it not be gay they would.
@@privatehere3324 Those guys are pretty funny. But, let's not let them take all the thunder from straight men who love women, love LGBTQ, and just love their male friends. That's more the kinda thing I'd like to normalize.
This was very helpful to us Cishets who don’t know about how Molly and Lindz are contributing to the culture. Also, the chat interspersed with clips is a very nice format.
all im saying is that the only reason i watched lotr when i was a teenager, was bc a friend of mine showed me the clip of frodo giving sams head a lil kissy kiss lmao. it just looked so cute and sweet and i was like "okay if the characters are this wonderfully cute, then i guess ill have to watch it despite it looking very scary otherwise" and then i immediately shipped frodo and sam (: i couldnt not...
I also think, as Tolkien was in wars, he knew personally the power of same-sex friendships, and likely saw same-sex relationships while on the battlefield - and seeing it as it was: romantic. I always thought that Sam, Frodo, and Sam's wife were a happy triad until Frodo left :)
EXACTLY. A point that should be made more often in discussions like this: there’s a high chance that Tolkien witnessed same sex romances develop between his fellow soldiers, amidst the traumas of the war, which they then had to hide again when they went home and reintegrated themselves into society. Even if he was raised Catholic, there’s a chance that the war experience opened his eyes to the complexity of human nature and how it’s just nature for some people to gravitate toward the same sex. But he couldn’t express this support or understanding aloud, since it was too taboo at the time. It’s rather likely this was at the back of his mind when he wrote Sam and Frodo’s relationship.
"Being quer explains why sam is willing to risk it all for frodo" Or maybe Tolkin understood what it ment to risk it all for your best friend given he was in the battle of the somme in ww1. Also I think that opionon does a dis-service to straight men who have the same type of relationship as Frodo and Sam, saying that, that beahvior is indicative of being quer people. Its not. Let bromance, be bromance.
I was going to write a whole spiel that would probably be taken in a negative way, but instead i'll just give you a thumbs up, because as a straight old dude i enjoy your content and the passion you put behind in producing it. This was educational, and i consider myself a forever student of life.
"Jolkien Rolkien Rolkien Tolkien, sobbing: Why don't you care about their epic friendships?!" "The Readers: Because they're gay, sir. You wrote them gay."
I get a feeling the Sam-Frodo friendship is based on stuff Tolkien experienced in British "public" school, maybe his WWI service. I couldn't sit through that movie they made about his early life, but I get that feeling that Tolkien saw stuff he willingly misread because the truth would have too hard to take; the guy was a hard-core conservative Catholic who still rode a bike as an old man.
It's funny because people used to say that the Sam and Frodo were gay as a joke and now people say it unironically because male characters aren't allowed to care about anyone they don't want to have sex with. Also Sam's last regret when he was about to die on a volcano was "Man I sure wished I had married that one barmaid I really liked" but sure believe what you want to
By not explicitly addressing romance, The Lord of the Rings leaves a lot of room for personal interpretation. As aro, I enjoyed the lack of forced love interest just for the sake of love interest. By the way, In the book, there was even less of the Arwen and Aragorn romance; that was a separate short story.
As a Bi dude I don't really read the Sam/Frodo relationship as romantic myself, and I don't seem to be alone here. I have two lifelong male friends who parallel their friendship narrative much more closely than any romantic partner I've had. I think because our friendship pre-dates any kind of sexual or romantic interest. We crawled around as toddlers together; started the same kindergarten on the same day, and 40+ years later the bond is just as strong, even though we're mostly worlds apart now geographically... So I want to push back just a little on the idea that this is written as an inherently romantic relationship. Since I've never viewed either of those friends as sexual or romantic interests, even as I (very timidly) started hooking up with other guys in our extended high school social circle. And even though, through grief and triumph, trauma and joy I've held their hands, kissed their foreheads and hugged them so tight we struggled to breathe. All of which gets easier year by year as society's concept of masculinity shifts, and as we get older and care less about performing that way, but still, my lived experience contradicts the idea that the Sam/Frodo romantic narrative is inherent to the story rather than something applied by the reader. I'd argue that a face-value reading of their friendship as a platonic one is at least internally consistent.
@@kloggmonkey smeagol is a murderer, constantly trying to kill them, and he wants to steal the ring for himself, therefore jeopardizing the whole mission, possibly dooming the entire world
@@JV-ic6to i get that, but (in terms of qualities to look for in a man) i simply don't trust anyone who'd look at smeagol and, at the very least, wouldn't take pity on him. poor thing's been through enough you know. and btw he wasn't "constantly trying to kill them", he tried to take them on once and got subdued without too much of a hassle and started sobering up right after. without his help they would never have made it. and he was doing so well too, he wanted to be better and was well on his way, but the fuckers pushed him over the edge. and sam's behaviour only made things worse. had he been as understanding as frodo who knows, perhaps smeagol would've been fully rehabilitated by the end?
all i'm saying is that movie sam was needlessly violent and abusive towards the most pitiful of creatures, and that's a good indication if anything that he's got some rather toxic qualities.
It appears to be a common flaw in the thinking of the acolytes of the current spirit of the age that love must be romantic in nature. Of course, once the art leaves the artist whatever you, as the reader, want to make of it is completely fine. Just don't assume your interpretations are implicit/explicit in the text and are therefore intended by the author. Overall, this video is a textbook example of eisegesis (in the case of Tolkien/LOTR specifically).
Tolkien is disinterested in war? Perhaps that’s supposed to mean something other than what I read it as? Because Tolkien survived the Somme and lost many of his friends in the trenches. He probably hated war but considering it’s a central theme of The Hobbit, LotR and The Silmarillion I would hardly call his relationship to war disinterested. Male friendship and brotherhood is obviously the most important aspect in LotR, but he treats war very seriously as far as I’m concerned, not merely as a backdrop to shape the bonds between the characters.
My great Aunt lived with her partner Margot for 40 years. Margot was in tears the last time I spoke to her, in her 90s, and said she was family. I wish I had more time to spend with them and learn what it must have been like in 1950s Yorkshire when they met
sorry, but if there is a film/book that does not deal with sexuality is The Lord of The Rings. Why do you assume its quer? Its just about honesty and friendship, i don't see whats gay about it, aside from people trying to make it weird.
and just to make it clear, there is nothing wrong if it was gay. i'm just saying that i don't see it in TLotR and both Tolkien and Jackson never, in anyway, suggested that it was behind the scenes. i'm saying this as a fanatic that watched every film in in every way possible and all the commentary tracks, plus all 20+ hours of behind the scenes material.
These people are perveted, they can't see past their own libido and project their views of sexuality unto others. Same mechanism that creates pedophiles
I feel like in context the lack of an explicitly romantic relationship between a lot of the male characters isn't necessarily an issue, for me at least? Because Tolkien was a literature guy, so I always feel like his love stories, and possibly his entire concept of male/male romance/relationships might be a bit more coded in like, old medieval stuff, like knightly love and shit from king arthur or whatever. Basically I feel like you don't have to say that "these guys are definitely banging" not because he's afraid to write that, but possibly because he actually thinks the more chaste idea of love and romance is, in some way, better. I dunno, I get the desire for perhaps a more modern form of romance to be represented among the male characters but I don't know if you could do that without it conflicting with the alternate, more historically coded interpretation of same sex relationships?
As far as movie scenes that make me cry every single time go, I always think of that one scene where Sam is going after Frodo in the boat even though he can't swim and Frodo has to save him. "Go back Sam! I'm going Mordor alone!" "Of course you are! and I'm coming with you!" There's is the most perfect love 😭
Thank you for the great video! I fundamentally disagree with the opinion that it has romantic undertones, or that it would be better if there was an explicit gay relationship. As a cis white dude I enjoy that the friendships are so touching without being romantic. Often media is afraid to show men caring for each other in a platonic manner and that is harmful to society too. Like, men are so scared to just be close to each other and it can be alienating af. I'm not saying cis white guys have the same plight as the LGBT community. I fully recognize that we need more LGBT representation in media. I just don't think lotr needs it to be perfect. The friendships are amazing and the fact that relationships aren't explicitly romantic is a good thing in my opinion. Anyone can relate to lotr as is, and it's still valid to read some relationships as gay if that's your background. The ambiguity allows more people to relate without alienating anyone. Unfortunately; if Sam and Frodo were a couple the series probably wouldn't have the legacy it does. Its sad to say that, but when it was published people were even more close minded than they are today . Also, I thought your takes were really interesting and your channel is amazing! I love your content and don't want this comment to be seen as an attack, just a difference in opinions. ❤
I think the depiction of these intense friendships between men is also due to women simply not existing in the same spaces as men back then and not being able to share their experiences. Your war buddy is going to be closer to you than the wife you didn't see for a long time.
THIS! All these "non-heteronormative" readings from modern day people are never taking the historical context into account. People may read it any way they want, but Tolkien most definitely would not have read it that way, in fact, he would have vehemently changed the story if he felt that a majority of people would have seen it that "non-heteronormative" way. His war experiences, the intimacy with his comrades were formative experiences of his youth and of the generation after, and that is something that as women, we especially, just cannot understand, because we do not live in the gender-divided world of yore anymore.
I just discovered your channel today, and this is the second video I’ve watched. Three years after it came out, so you’ll probably never see this comment. In any case I have to say how very much I enjoyed this video. I’m in my early 50s, and only came out to myself in my late forties. I’m consuming queer content as quickly I can. I’ve always been a fantasy fan, but never entirely understood why I’m so drawn to it and science fiction. I’m still figuring things out, of course, but this video made me understand an important part of my identity more. When Molly was mentioning how she began to understand the reason for her attraction to the Talented Mr Ripley that she didn’t understand in her youth, that really resonated with me. There’s a lot of movies and media stuff that made me uncomfortable for most of my life because of internalized homophobia and denial and, honestly, not understanding what it was that I was feeling because it was the 70s and eighties and the only representation of LGBT stuff in media was negative. I’m definitely going to check out that Charlieze Theron movie. I can’t believe I haven’t watched it. Of course, it was when I was just starting to figure things out so maybe I wasn’t ready. Wonderful video! New subscriber.
I've always thought the discourse around "Tolkein sexist because women characters are insignificant" could easily be turned into a "Tolkein gay because women characters are insignificant". It never read like he didn't like women to me, more like he just forget they existed due to a lack of interest.
@@guyunderwood2297 I mean, it's also a fantasy version of the medieval era, and when taking that into account, I'd say that the number of female characters is actually pretty high. I would argue that Tolkien's work is a superb showcase of genuinely independent, genuinely powerful women, because all the women with major roles *actually do shit* and are never presented as "lesser" . Especially in the Silmarilion with the character of Luthien. She *rescues her husband-to-be* of her own volition, with only the help of the Goodest Boy, Huan.
@Zoe Leier Tolkien also gave Eowyn this superb slap down to Aragorn, “All your words are but to say: ‘you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more.’” Tolkien may not have written many women, but his female characters are so marvelous. Indeed, it’s Eowyn’s femininity that means she can defeat the Witch King. It’s all part of his theme of undervalued people saving the day instead of the big strong men.
while i'm not opposed to Frodo and Sam having the possibility of being lovers, i feel that limiting it that undermines and does harm to the idea of men not being able to love each other as friends lest they be gay, and reinforces the whole men dont have feelings (and specially not for each other even as friends) mentality. also, while I dont know the intimate details of Tolkien's personal life thus i cant discount the possibility of him basing his fiction on his love for another man, I can more certainly say that since he mostly based his story on his time in WWI, so I would expect him to write about comradery and the love that men develop for each other in those life or death situations as brothers in arms, which has been said to transcend things found in normal life, perhaps even the love of romantic partners. (But isn't that perhaps even more romantic in some way? Often love is just about wanting someone for yourself, beyond that, some people manage to just want happiness for their loved one no matter whom they're with, but wouldn't it then doing everything you can to make sure your friend lives and is safe be even a step above that?)
The term 'love ' is used in England as a term of endearment like 'How you doing love?'. I'm not saying your wrong but is used in a more asexual way, for both male and female. For examples watch East Enders.
Ah, I'm so excited! I've been thinking about rewatching the 'Lord of the Rings' films again mostly just because I love Sam and Frodo's relationship so much. Elijah Wood and Sean Astin have the kind of chemistry that simply isn't fair.
On a super random note, in certain parts of the UK calling people "my love" or saying "thank you lover" isn't necessarily romantic, and can even be between strangers. This is in more rural areas like I imagine the shire being based on. I do sometimes call some of my friends and family my love, but more because I think it's cute. But u know not sinking any ships. Sam & Frodo are so cute. Also thanks for the Aro/Ace shout out :)
I keep thinking back to watching Return of the King with my roommate in college, him squirming uncomfortably in his seat because Sam cradling Frodo in his arms was "very gay" while I'm sobbing my eyes out at how beautiful their friendship was.
"I mean I loved Harry Potter, RIP J.K. Rowling" I mood this. to be fair, I have come to like it less after being exposed to both amazing worldbuilding, incredible stories, and artlike prose, while HP is still good, it's not exeptional in any way (besudes popularity) so I feel like I've outgrown it, but it helped shape me enough that it stung when I found out the author is preaching stuff that gets girls like me killed on the street to her gigantic fanbase of mostly young people.
So you're mad at the fact a famous author said you're not a woman and that's factually wrong how? This is me assuming you're a transsexual based on what I read. If you're a man but want to be a "woman" then call yourself a transsexual not a woman because you can't pretend be one.
I'm a cis-het guy, but finds this very interesting! I think the first gay character I recognized (and think was early on good representation), was Carter Heywood in the sitcom Spin City. He is a gay character, but not a walking stereotype as much as a sitcom allowed in the 90s.
Damn, your scriptwriting is phenomenal ! I discovered you a while back through the Behind the Bastards podcast (after randomly searching for A. Fish's descendants - don't ask me why, I was bored), but had yet to actually check out your channel. I'm so pleasantly surprised ! It's a shame I didn't check out your channel earlier. I'm gonna fix that and check out more videos of yours :) I'm also excited that you're gonna work with Jessie Gender - I've been following her for years and love her content !
Ah, I already knew what I was feeling at that scene when I first watched it. Instead, for me that moment was Kingdom Hearts - but like, all of it. Everything in that game series before KHIII was so very gay.
@@thatboringone7851 like in KH2 when Sora finds Riku and hold his hands and breaks down sobbing right there when earlier he got reunited with Kiari and was just like ‘oh hey girl king time no see 🥰’ ahdjshdjd
I think when analyzing the relationship of Frodo and Sam it is important that we look at Tolkein's WW1 experience but more broadly the experience of officers and their Batman. No, not That *Batman* . A "Batman" was essentially an orderly who performed miscellaneous tasks for an officer. Many Batman after the war served their former officers as servants on their estates. I can't think of any description that fits Sam better than that, especially given that Frodo is clearly of the "landed gentry" and Sam of the working class. So when we look at the dynamic of the relationship and Sam's clear statements of affection, we shouldn't forget that he is in effect a servant. If we view Sam as a WW1 Batman and Frodo as his officer, it is clearly in Sam's interest to convey affection or a liking to his officer; if it was modelled after real life examples. So I don't think it's far fetched to assume if Tolkein modelled their interactions on real occurrences that some of the Sam-Frodo relationship is based on an affection and friendship that was motivated by self interest. A Batman had a better job than the average rifleman in the trenches. A good way to keep that is to foster that friendship or affection with you officer, even if it has to be contrived. We should take this into account with Sam and Frodo's relationship.
Currently reading The Two Towers for the first time, and an exchange happened between Gimli and Legolas wherein they promised one another that they would walk with the other through their respective beautiful places. Gimli loves and adores the untouched (for a dwarf) Helms Deep. Legolas, the forest of Fangorn. In a later chapter when Tree Beard invites Legolas to freely visit Fangorn, Legolas says he will not go without Gimli because of their promise to do those things together. Whether romantic or platonic, I found the exchanges to be notable. A promise made is a promise kept between these two characters, even if it never comes to pass. These two men expressed deep love for places that held meaning to them, the other respectfully acknowledged that importance, and promised to share the experience with the other. I loved that.
Don't forget that Legolas *waits for another 122 years* to Go Into the West/The Undying Lands/Aman, despite the fact he had been yearning to do so since he heard the sound of a seagull in Return of the King, all because he was waiting for Aragorn to pass. Or that Gimli was the *only* Dwarf to go there(Aman), which speaks to his bottomless love for Legolas, seeing as how Dwarves are innately connected to Middle Earth and are attached to it in a deep, spiritual way that none of the other Races are.
I didn't read anything sexual, the films in general just demonstrate a healthy approach to masculinity and friendship. Charecters are able to be fully expressive without the hang ups of being deemed 'gay' or 'butch' or 'masculine' or 'feminine' . They feel and express free of any hang ups which is beautiful and a positive message for males who are often made to feel such feelings are somehow "gay" and that "gay" = bad. It changes the equation. I think Aragon is the perfect example, a man who hits many the typical masculine tropes while exemplifying many feminine tropes. Its great.
I only just noticed that you had a box for Loom on the shelf behind you and frankly I'm embarrassed it took me this long to pick up on it. You are to be commended for your excellent taste in early nineties adventure games featuring music from ballets, in addition to your other analysis.
This is a great video. My two cents that nobody asked for: It's important to remember the context that the Lord of the Rings series was written; Tolkien started writing this setting very shortly after being removed from service in WWII. He participated in the Battle of the Somme, one of the deadliest battles in human history. In such situations, social mores and structures often break down. I think it's interesting to read The Lord of the Rings as a form of art therapy. Veterans often long for the sort of camaraderie and clearness of purpose they saw in wartime deployment. Tolkien likely witnessed outward camaraderie and even love between men that would have been rare to see for a man with such a stuffy upbringing. It's little wonder that so many of the relationships are coded as gay; the likely inspirations would have had homosexual under AND overtones. It's very easy to see Frodo as the author insert; a man who saw, felt and lived to the absolute extreme of human (hobbit?) existence, so much so that he had to leave and go into the west. This is a pretty clear analog for PTSD or shell shock, as it was known at the time. Tolkien himself was removed from service due to being declared medically unfit after the Somme.
Listen, I know it's not what you meant, but I wasn't looking at the screen during the intro, and it definitely sounded like this episode was brought to you by 'my patrons and bi-curiosity stream'.
I kind of found the old guard to be dull, and frustratingly morose. Except when you had Yusuf and Nikolò who made for some of the best parts of the action scenes, were not constantly lamenting their super powers, and all the while they described their passionate past Im sat there thinking 'Why the hell am I not watching _that_ movie!'
I'm so glad I found someone who thinks the same, 'cause I really, really wanted to like the Old Guard, but for me it had a big "tell don't show" issue. The character also all had the same voice, and I honestly cannot tell you how any of them differ from each other apart from in age. The music was also atrocious. Yeah, don't @ me, every single time a fight scene started i cringed because of the awful, energy-sucking song that would unavoidably ensue.
What was the first movie/tv show/character you recognized as LGBTQIA+ when you were younger?
Hiei and Kurama from Yu Yu Hakusho
A lot of trans people actually headcanon Danny Phantom as being a transman, too.
Leaving out horrible stereotypes that only existed as a gag?
I guess it would have to be Northstar from the Alpha Flight comics. Though that was more people telling me he was gay than it being something I noticed. If not him then Smithers from the Simpsons would definitely be one I noticed... Or did Ninja Scroll beat them to the punch? Firsts are hard when you have a bad memory.
Enrique "Rickie" Vasquez from My So-Called Life.
Amara and Michelle in Sailor Moon. The "cousins" when it aired in America.
I will love Tolkien forever for having Eowyn tell Aragorn, “All your words are but to say: ‘you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more.’” And then she shows up to the battle and saves the day. I love her.
Tolkien is a product of his time and cultural views on sex, gender, and race are problematic by modern sensibilities. The common criticism that his main characters were all male is valid.
However, he also wrote a female character who is told to stay home by the men in her life, defies them and sneaks off to war, then during battle finds the baddest, most terrifying monster on the field and stabs it in the face. So there’s that.
Also, something I always appreciated is that of the three elven rings of power, one is worn by Galadriel, which she used to rule Lothlorien. She’s married and her husband Celeborn is like right there, but she’s the one in charge, she did almost all the talking with the fellowship, and her struggle with the one ring is the only one we’re shown. But no one is like, “Celeborn, control your wife!” Everyone just accepts that she’s the ruler.
I love this so fiercely.
As an aroace person, lotr's potrayal of close platonic relationships was really important to me. Like, Legolas and Gimli are platonic life parters and you can't convince me otherwise. I also see the romantic reading as an important part of lotr for the reasons this video pointed out.
I have really enjoyed an aro reading of Frodo, in particular, and that Sam and Frodo are the archetype of a QPR
I am more like gimli and legolas are a couple, they can be ace too of course, the hobbit movies never existed
@@marocat4749 Legolas and Gimli literally traveled to the Other Side together so there's that xD
That's a weird way to spell "friends"
@@IEatYourSandwiches either way works for me honestly
You got Molly Ostertag on your video?!
What a queen move
I do ship Frodo and Sam but my aroace heart is still satisfied with them being so wonderfully committed friends 💜🖤💚
@@MaggieMaeFish That's fantastic! I'm happy to hear that! Friends are so lovely and wonderful to have 💚🖤💜 I hope to marry my best friend who's also aroace some day lolll tax benefits~
@@MaggieMaeFish I missed the intro to this so I'm rewatching it and oh!! You acknowledged aro/ace folk omg 💜🖤💚 Even more happy now 🌠
@@Kagomai15 omg why is this me ,, I’m aroace and I plan on marrying my friend for financial aid when we’re applying to colleges 😭
I ship them as Asexual but suuuuper romantic. Absolutely life partners
Broke: Lord of the Rings is really gay 😣
Woke: Lord of the Rings depicts wholesome male friendship without having to romanticise or sexualise them
Bespoke: Lord of the Rings is really gay 😍
That's delightful
Teh Lurd of Teh Reings say there no trace of da gae
Tolkein was a devout Catholic and traditionalist. The rainbow mafia only think he's on their side because theyre narcissists.
The real woke take is “LOTR is about wholesome, physically affectionate male friendship AND male romantic relationships.” One shouldn’t be all or nothing when reading the book. There’s room for both.
You guys desperately want to believe that a traditional Catholic Englishman was writing a novel about homoeroticism huh?
I remember watching the Lord of the Rings movies as a heterosexual teenaged boy when they first came out and being mostly oblivious to the LGBTQ subtext; however, when I finally got around to reading the original novels in my late 20s I remember being struck by heavily so many of the characters interactions read as gay romantic relationships. While the video focused heavily on Frodo and Sam and I remember being struck by how much the book version of Legolas and Gimli feel like a couple.
I think that what's interesting about Tolkien is that even the heterosexual relationships that are explicitly called out in the text as romantic are incredibly chaste in their presentation, and I think that that is also part of the reason that an LGBTQ reading feels like such a natural fit. This is a world completely unconcerned with the sexual aspects of romantic relationships, and that shifts how we think about romantic relationships between the characters. We're not viewing this in the context of "Are Frodo and Sam fucking?" but "Do Frodo and Sam love each other?".
indeed, since there weren't any words for sexual orientations back in the olden days i'd assume the same goes for any language of arda. just variations of the word 'love'.
(speaking of which i'm pretty sure 'friend' and 'lover' are the same thing in elvish)
I totally read Gimli and Legolas as canon, when I read the book
@@kloggmonkey you actually just reminded me that the whole conceit of Tolkien's LOTR related works is that they where translations of works by Bilbo preserved in the Thain's Book which JRR "somehow" got ahold of. That adds a whole new layer of (conceptual) translation issues to examine for queer subtext
You people are insufferable
“When I viewed it through a sexualized lens i was able to attach sexuality to any interaction”
It’s wild how gay people can’t come up with their own things.
Bunch of feigh goats round these parts.
One of the less talked about grievances I have with the "why can't they just be friends?" question is that it implies that a mlm relationship can't also be a good example of general male camaraderie.
My problems with "why not just friends" also include a) the double standard applied to straight relationships and b) that romance is not part of friendship, which I've always considered a rather toxic idea. News flash to the incels: a friendship is also a relationship and romance is still in the "friend zone"
Yes thank you!! As someone who's aroace, seeing people talk down friendships constantly is so exhausting and insulting for these very reasons.
And also "why can't men just be friends" you *have* so much media of men just being friends already, let us have this omg
@@cowabungasheeit As an arospec I would agree with you. I don't like romance as the pinnacle of relationships. I think that just because people ship it, doesn't mean it should be portrayed in canon. I think we should be able to have mlm representation beside male friendship, and I think that people shipping two straight male characters shouldn't be seen as a vicious attack on male heterosexuality.
@@PalomaDreams17 can I steal "I don't like romance as the pinnacle of relationships"? That is the perfect summation of all my thoughts too, I never thought to put it like that.
@@essneyallen6777 Absolutely!
"You're a child. You don't even understand. You are trying to hurt me with the thing that is my greatest strength."
That line that Molly dropped hit me so hard.
Same
I got a lot of deeply important meaning in a more platonic reading of LotR, the concept that platonic love can be so profoundly powerful is something I don't see a lot of and, as somebody who puts a lot of emphasis on the platonic bonds in my life, it feels nice to see a film that can be read as putting such bonds of brotherhood and found family in roles traditionally reserved for a het romantic story. *BUT* that doesn't invalidate any overtly homosexual readings of the story and, if anything, should encourage it more. What I so deeply love about the story is that it CAN speak so deeply to so many people, and to deny the LGBT+ readings of the story would be a crime against art as far as I'm concerned. I love the platonic reading because it makes me feel seen, and that's a feeling I'd want everybody to feel.
That's why I love it as well! I'm aromatic and it really generally bothers me when romantic relationships are seen as the ultimate form of love, or immediately assumed that romantic relationships are closer than platonic ones, or even that it is unquestioned that lovers would run into a burning building for each other but it is weird or requires an explanation if the same is assumed with a friendship.
I like this reading as well because I read LoTR as a child, so to me romantic stories were... uncomfortable and hard to understand. But I could understand love and platonic love. So for a long time I had discussions with people who saw more than a platonic relationship, because it bothered me that the characters just could not love each other without being romantic. But as I grew up, I understood that there can be multiple readings, and all are valid.
It's been kinda interesting for me realising I'm ace/aro, one of the coolest things is finding all this vocabulary on how many different types of love and attraction their are. And how their all meaningful and valid.
1st off, I'm only 7 minutes into this as I'm writing this but just thank you for acknowledging Aromantic (like me) and ace people's. Nice to feel seen.
Of course! 💖
I was a pre-teen when LOTR was in theaters, and finally seeing men in media unashamedly exhibiting stereotypical "feminine" qualities like tenderness and open affection for one another was so powerful to me. As an ace, the sexual reading never crossed my mind until much later; but as a nascent NB, I'm convinced that those films opened that gender-fluid door in my mind.
Really enjoyed this video buuuuut... "my love"/"my lover" are essentially used as punctuation in Westcountry English (i.e. the dialect Sméagol and Déagol speak in the film). Total strangers will call each other "my love" in that region, so it's a bit of a stretch to call it textual evidence of a homoromantic relationship
Even as a kid I totally knew Sailor Neptune and Sailor Uranus weren't cousins
I cannot get over what an awful attempt that was at hiding their relationship.
Whereas Smeagol and Deagol ARE cousins
Sailor moon made me gay AND non-binary
They were cousins
They were just from Alabama
In the German version I think they tried to sell sailor uranos as a boy who turns into a girl. Yeah sure, like children don't have eyes. I wanted to be sailor neptune so much ❤️
I feel like being a Midwestern Mom somehow has a very Lesbian energy.
0:40 "Gosh, I remember my friend Beth and I used to stay up late at night just talking about [beat] things like that...oh, pardon me, I got lost in the memory."
Nah, just two gals bein' pals and whatnot.
So this video just made me realize that a story I wrote that got picked apart in a college class because "are these ladies just really intense friends? Are they gay? Can't you be more clear? I don't get it" was just not a straight story for a straight audience who has never wrestled with not understanding that they don't understand their feelings and I can't express how validating that is and that it has brought my passion for that story back. Like, I'm actually gonna go dust it off and keep working on it now
Can we read it when you're done?
that's such a good point! implications and subtext are, for a lot of queer people, extremely important for finding meaning and solidarity (both in real life and in fiction). I hadn't really considered that "straight stories" are also straightforward stories: everything is spelled out in terms of feelings and romantic relationships.
I'm so glad you revisited your story, i hope it brings you greater joy and freedom now!
maggie as a nice midwestern woman offering me baked potatoes is the mother figure i never knew i needed
YES, the Old Guard is a MUST WATCH. I never thought an action movie could make me cry twice.
Ugh I just finished it and it was SO. GOOD. How is it not better rated??? I’m glad it’s getting a sequel though. I do wonder if it’s an action movie for non-action movie fans, cause I normally find action and superhero movies kinda boring...
@@sonorasgirl It's based on a comic series! So if there's still something if there's no sequel!
I personally read/watched LoTR and got an entirely platonic feel off of it. I was 13 when I first read it. I didn’t admit I was bisexual till I was in my mid twenties! I completely respect everyone’s interpretation, I can see how the male relationships in LoTR could be inspiring and romantic. But the platonic interpretation I had was so powerful to me. I was raised extremely religious, and was indoctrinated with the idea that I couldn’t be friends with the opposite gender because it would always become romantic. Yet since I was bi I couldn’t get “too close” to female friends either because... oh no! 😂 To me, Sam and Frodo being so incredibly close without an outward projecting romantic relationship was beyond heart warming. It helped me be friends with men and women without always viewing things through a romantic lens.
Yeah I don't see what we are gaining here by characterizing a close relationship between two men as obviously gay either, there are people who already do that who we ostensibly don't agree with
Whether you read the relationships in LOTR as gay or not, I think it's refreshing to see a bunch of tender, emotionally rich male friendships portrayed so unabashedly in such a major piece of pop culture, especially a pillar of nerd culture in particular.
None of the main characters exhibit stereotypical toxically masculine action movie hero traits - you don't have a Han Solo-esque rogue who shoots first, asks questions later, and has his way with women. The two major straight relationships (Aragorn and Arwen, Sam and... whatshername) are either barely touched on (in Sam's case) or based entirely in mutual yearning. It also shows a lot of restraint on the filmmaker's part to NOT turn Aragorn into a swaggering, swashbuckling bad boy, because they VERY easily could have (see what they did to Kili in The Hobbit trilogy, and Thorin to a lesser extent).
It makes me wonder if that's why you don't seem to run into the same toxicity in Tolkien fan groups as you do in groups devoted to, say, comics or Star Wars.
Omg I just wrote a comment saying basically the same but then I read yours and you explained it so much better
But I totally agree, I don't want to "gay-wash" complex and not traditionally hegemonic masculinities
Wich we don't get a lot of
Her name is Rose 😂 Rosie Cotton, farmer Cotton's daughter. I can't remember real people's names, but ask me about any random, barely mentioned LotR character 😬😅
And the one Fellowship example of swaggering masculinity, Boromir, transpires to not have been doing it by nature but performing the role he feels is expected of him - and it ends up being an increasingly damaging thing he ends up deeply regretting and attempting to undo the harm he has done with it.
Funny that that emotional tenderness and care was produced by Harvey Weinstein ...
Dude, I'm ace/aro and to me it was always ALWAYS really clear that Frodo and Sam are in love romantically. (Bilbo is ace tho dont @ me)
i was JUST thinking about that Bilbo! YEEEEESSS!!!
Never married despite being a prominent member of his community, and never seemed to mind? Yeah, Bilbo's aro/ace as hell.
Just got me thinking, Andy wandering alone for aaaages before finding another like her, and then how they all gravitate towards each other because of their dreams---just reminded me there was one ""token gay"" in my high school friend group,,, and now years later I think there's only like two people in that same group who still ID as cishet 😂 We just gravitated towards each other!
Even more specifically: asexuality is about 1% of the population, yet there's me and four of my friends whom I met in school and we're all ace and/or aro, didn't even have to search online for them haha
The Old Guard is so gay and I loved it so much
(Am I commenting multiple times because i have lots to say or is it engagement for the algorithm? Both it's both)
As a cishet guy struggling to rebuild after leaving a cult-like evangelical family, the moment starting at 18:40 hits really hard. Especially "when parts of your identity are denied from you, part of the coming-out process is looking back at your life and seeing events in a new light." Between the strangeness of leaving that world of belief and coming to understand being neuroatypical, it's so hard to find that sense of "sameness" and mutual understanding even among people who do accept me. Just the way you described it made it so real on an emotional level... idk.
Also, just a great video. Keep making this content.
💖💖
Yes! I was similarly touched by that section you quoted, as a cishet guy currently developing a deeper appreciation of my own challenges/struggles with neurodivergence as an adult. Just so much of my life is making more sense, now that I have the words and concepts to express and understand it.
So here's my brief have your cake and eat it take: Frodo is ace, Sam is Bi. Sam's unrequited love is expressed without ever overstepping the boundaries.
I WAS JUST THINKING THAT!!! Sorry for the caps 😂. But it perfectly fits their relationships, including Sam’s jealousy of Gollum and Frodo’s rather thick response to it 😂🤦🏽♀️. Dear, sweet, oblivious Frodo...
@@sonorasgirl I think it's one interesting reading of the text. Tolkien himself was pretty 'no-homo' about the whole thing and I think it's fair to also read into it the platonic love based on the camaraderie between those who've experienced trauma (in Tolkien's case the first world war). But it can be both, that's one of the great things about art. It speaks to different people in different times in different ways.
The relationship between Sam and Frodo is based a lot in the relationship of soldiers in the trenches of WW1 (which Tolkien fought). The grim and horrific life in the trenches made a lot of men to seek affection it every possible way the could and also helped gay men (which was a big no no back then( to express themselves more freely . Justifies IMO that Lord of the Rings promotes men to be OK with bring vulnerable and embrace their more feminine side
More like Maggie Bae Fish, amirite ladies?
Sorry, couldn't resist. Loved the video. It was very cozy.
Yesss xD
Don't have to be a lady. I'm increasingly learning that, if I think a woman stands out as hot anong other beautiful women, I will later find out they are lesbian.
@@ZipplyZane I never said anyone had to be a lady to agree with the sentiment, only that my comment was directed toward other women.
I'm also not sure why you felt the need to let us know that your attraction to women is tied to some sort of gaydar, but uh, good for you I suppose.
@@ZipplyZane lol you are 'increasingly learning' hot women can be lesbians?
I just discovered your channel and I cannot pass the fact the moment I heard your voice it reminded me of "Regarding the prejudices on my client, Addisson Cain" and other readings of the lawyer's letters/mails from the videos of Lindsay Ellis and I can't unheard it !
Yep, that was her!
@@NotJustBriana I KNEW IT !
Gotta be honest, LOTR is such an amazing representation of deep, healthy male friendship that i don't think any other reading is nearly as useful or meaningful. Healthy male frienships like that are actually extremely uncommon in art. I think yall just need better friends to get it.
People should read C.S. Lewis's "The Four Loves" in which he discusses four kinds of love (there are four Greek words translated as 'love'). Yes, Lewis says patronizing things about women, and downright foolish things about male homosexuality, and his whole thesis is refracted through his usual Christian lens; but there is also a lot of good insight to be found there. And he mentions his love (not erotic) for Tolkien.
The found family elements in The Old Guard resonated so strongly with me.
You know, not enough talk about how gay Moby Dick is. I literally had to stop reading several times because I couldnt believe this book was written two centuries ago. I don't believe anything can be as gay as Moby Dick.
When I read it and in the first few chapters Ishmael and Quequeg have a slapstick misunderstanding in the inn and then end up sharing a bed and wake up cuddling, they then go around New Bedford (?) And even Ishmael's narration comments that they were so friendly with one another that people thought it was strange and funny but they didn't even mind....I was honestly rereading it to try and find a non-gay reading.
@@keeganblute8193 Ahab is the only straight character in that book. I'm pretty sure even the guys who own the boat are a couple.
The British censors had a field day with those early chapters, but for the American edition Melville had stereotyped plates commissioned for the text in advance of finding a publisher, partly so that none of it could be changed.
@@radioactivehalfrhyme Fucking legend.
@@radioactivehalfrhyme I might actually be inclined to read that book after this.
The Old Guard was legit one of my favorite films of 2020 and that monologue in the van was so beautiful. Talking about that movie and that scene with my best friend fiinally gave me that last little bit of courage to come out to her.
Man, where was this video ten years ago when my college advisor shot down my academic study proposal to study non-heteronormative gender and sexuality expressions in LOTR?! Thank you for putting this concept into such a well rounded discussion!
I feel like Hobbits can definitely be representative of third gender in general. The males always lean a bit stereotypically feminine, and the females always lean a bit stereotypically masculine, at least based on what I remember.
Even if you exclude the physical hobbits don't have the rigid gender roles that men do. They live in a fairly equal agrarian society. I'm not up on the nonbinary lingo but they might be considered apathetic towards gender, not sure what the word for that would be. Like if you called Frodo she then he would just roll with it and let you because it isn't as entrenched for him as it would be someone like Boromir, who would instantly correct you.
@@glitterberserker1029 agender is the identifier used by people who don't identify with any gender/having a gender
@@testosteronic thanks!
As far as I can remember the only real difference was in naming females after flowers.... Now I have to go reread everything-- oh well🙃
If @hobbitgay doesn't get a mention, Lord help me, Maggie Mae, I will write a stern tweet. (Sees Molly and puts the stern tweet away.) You win this time, Maggie, you win this time.
I think it's incredibly important to read Lord of the Rings as a story of deep Platonic friendships between people of the same sex, particularly men, since friendships between men, while often represented in media, are often depicted as exclusively interacting through very surface level joking and mocking, or lean overly on militant camaraderie and machismo. The kind of relationships that Lord of the Rings depicts between men, with deep genuine care and tender moments, is rare and should be celebrated.
I also think it's incredibly important to read it as a LGBTQ+ story, because firstly, representation is important and that should honestly be enough. More than that though, the same things that make those relationships incredibly important as platonic relationships make them very important depictions of romantic relationships as well. It's of particular note that Aragorn, who is essentially Tolkien's idea of the ideal man, demonstrates traits which are, unfortunately, not typically considered "masculine:" tenderness, gentleness and emotional maturity in both his platonic and romantic relationships, and therefore we can see that these traits are what Tolkien considered ideal in all positive relationships. That being the case, I think there's a completely legitimate case for both platonic and romantic readings of the relationships in his work, because they showcase those same traits.
Excellent point. Tolkien does a beautiful job at writing chastity, in that even the romantic relationships aren’t sexualized, so there’s almost no real difference between the platonic and romantic connections; it’s just always tender love, expressed fully and openly and honestly. Even Gimli going gaga over Galadriel is not a sexual attraction whatsoever, just an admiration of the beauty of not just her face and hair, but also her heart, in her kindness and respect for his being a Dwarf, which he is not used to receiving from an Elf. But he never says anything creepy about her like “heh, too bad she’s married” nor does he ask Eomer “would you rather sleep with Galadriel or Arwen?” It’s a very polite, very chivalric admiration of a woman’s “fairness” with no interest in spoiling or violating that fairness.
The Old Guard? Now this is the content I love to see!
It's completely new to me but now I really want to see it
leonardo dicaprio as a butch lesbian in titanic is such a brilliant bit of head-canon, it improves everything!
I'm straight and cis but I am autistic. I spent years and years growing up trying to hide my autism, I was afraid to tell people for fear of being picked on (more) in school, even many family members. I felt shame, I was uncomfortable seeing depictions of it. It took me a long time to deprogram myself from that, I didn't even tell my own best friend until I was 21 and I was half drunk when I did. It's only been the last few years that I can embrace my autism as something that makes me different but not less. So while it's not exactly the same, I can only imagine how many gay, lesbian, trans and others have parallel experiences of being different but struggling mentally the same way I did with something that even more people are ignorant and hateful towards. I hope everyone going through that finds their way out of that fear, empty shame and they can learn to embrace themselves fully.
the noise i made at the title i'm SO READY
I was a huge LotR fan from a young age, and I spent hours in the lore and languages and poems. I had never seen it this way before. Thank you for broadening my perspective, and my lens of reading. This was very profound, and I appreciate it.
This comment really made me smile! Good on you for being open for new perspectives on the things you love :^)
This was really, really nice. I was kind of scared you were going to rip LotR apart, but instead there a lot of thoughtfulness and love without pretending it was completely unproblematic. Thanks for making this :)
I think the many different interpretations possible only prove that Tolkien created a viable mythology. The fact that people keep wanting to retell the stories shows how much depth they encompass.
As an aro man, reading the love in the LOTR as romantic/sexual would deeply, deeply, cheapen it for me since there are so many examples of romantic love, but far fewer examples of men unabashedly showing, and being comfortable with, their platonic love for one another.
I’m also aro and feel exactly the same. To me it’s always been a wonderful example of platonic love and men feeling secure in showing their emotions and deep affection for each other, and the vital need for intimate friendship. Viewing it as at all romantic really destroys everything I love so much about it and brings into sharp focus how society dismisses platonic love and uses the term “love” only in terms of romance. Something this video is guilty of.
Its interesting to me because I always thought lotr has room for all readings. I never read Sam/Frodo as romantic for example and the sheer strength of the platonic love and their dedication to each other to be the the beauty of their relationship. Meanwhile Pippin and Merry particularly struck me as strongly romantic and that meant a lot to me too in terms of there being no romantic gay representation in fantasy at that time (and very little mainstream). Not to mention the dynamic between aragorn, gimli and legolas. As a result I see all versions as equally valuable and I wouldn't call any version "cheap".
Also kinda disappointing Maggie didnt get any MLM people in to talk about it.
While I'm happy the LGBT community got a lot from these characters and their stories, it's kind of sad that everything is so hyper sexualised that two people of the same sex can't show care and love for each other and still just be friends.
Man❌
Woman❌
Lad✔
The UK would like to know your location.
gender neutral language
Petty nitpick but hey, it fuels the algorithm: Nile is killed the first time by having her throat slashed, not a gunshot to the chest. But anyway, thank you for talking about these movies!
My absolute favorite are the Sauron and Morgoth fan stories and art.
If he had included that in the Silmarillion, the damn thing actually would've been readable.
#angbang
Sauron wouldn't become a chad he is without spending a whole Era twinking for an ultimate Daddy of Darkness 😏
Funny, LotR was my gay awakening when I was about 10
Not that this can't be a valid reading, but sometimes I don't know if people realize how gay straight men are for each other.
Its weird how some men hate women and yet are terrifed of the idea of being gay. Like if they could marry their best bro and have it not be gay they would.
@@privatehere3324 Those guys are pretty funny. But, let's not let them take all the thunder from straight men who love women, love LGBTQ, and just love their male friends. That's more the kinda thing I'd like to normalize.
This was very helpful to us Cishets who don’t know about how Molly and Lindz are contributing to the culture. Also, the chat interspersed with clips is a very nice format.
all im saying is that the only reason i watched lotr when i was a teenager, was bc a friend of mine showed me the clip of frodo giving sams head a lil kissy kiss lmao. it just looked so cute and sweet and i was like "okay if the characters are this wonderfully cute, then i guess ill have to watch it despite it looking very scary otherwise" and then i immediately shipped frodo and sam (: i couldnt not...
I also think, as Tolkien was in wars, he knew personally the power of same-sex friendships, and likely saw same-sex relationships while on the battlefield - and seeing it as it was: romantic.
I always thought that Sam, Frodo, and Sam's wife were a happy triad until Frodo left :)
EXACTLY. A point that should be made more often in discussions like this: there’s a high chance that Tolkien witnessed same sex romances develop between his fellow soldiers, amidst the traumas of the war, which they then had to hide again when they went home and reintegrated themselves into society. Even if he was raised Catholic, there’s a chance that the war experience opened his eyes to the complexity of human nature and how it’s just nature for some people to gravitate toward the same sex. But he couldn’t express this support or understanding aloud, since it was too taboo at the time. It’s rather likely this was at the back of his mind when he wrote Sam and Frodo’s relationship.
"Being quer explains why sam is willing to risk it all for frodo" Or maybe Tolkin understood what it ment to risk it all for your best friend given he was in the battle of the somme in ww1. Also I think that opionon does a dis-service to straight men who have the same type of relationship as Frodo and Sam, saying that, that beahvior is indicative of being quer people. Its not. Let bromance, be bromance.
I was going to write a whole spiel that would probably be taken in a negative way, but instead i'll just give you a thumbs up, because as a straight old dude i enjoy your content and the passion you put behind in producing it. This was educational, and i consider myself a forever student of life.
"Jolkien Rolkien Rolkien Tolkien, sobbing: Why don't you care about their epic friendships?!"
"The Readers: Because they're gay, sir. You wrote them gay."
I get a feeling the Sam-Frodo friendship is based on stuff Tolkien experienced in British "public" school, maybe his WWI service. I couldn't sit through that movie they made about his early life, but I get that feeling that Tolkien saw stuff he willingly misread because the truth would have too hard to take; the guy was a hard-core conservative Catholic who still rode a bike as an old man.
It's funny because people used to say that the Sam and Frodo were gay as a joke and now people say it unironically because male characters aren't allowed to care about anyone they don't want to have sex with.
Also Sam's last regret when he was about to die on a volcano was "Man I sure wished I had married that one barmaid I really liked" but sure believe what you want to
I'm in love with your sweater, it's the kind of sweater every grown up wore when I was a child, Oh the nostalgia!
Wait the movies are gay?
Always have been
By not explicitly addressing romance, The Lord of the Rings leaves a lot of room for personal interpretation. As aro, I enjoyed the lack of forced love interest just for the sake of love interest. By the way, In the book, there was even less of the Arwen and Aragorn romance; that was a separate short story.
As a Bi dude I don't really read the Sam/Frodo relationship as romantic myself, and I don't seem to be alone here. I have two lifelong male friends who parallel their friendship narrative much more closely than any romantic partner I've had. I think because our friendship pre-dates any kind of sexual or romantic interest. We crawled around as toddlers together; started the same kindergarten on the same day, and 40+ years later the bond is just as strong, even though we're mostly worlds apart now geographically... So I want to push back just a little on the idea that this is written as an inherently romantic relationship. Since I've never viewed either of those friends as sexual or romantic interests, even as I (very timidly) started hooking up with other guys in our extended high school social circle. And even though, through grief and triumph, trauma and joy I've held their hands, kissed their foreheads and hugged them so tight we struggled to breathe.
All of which gets easier year by year as society's concept of masculinity shifts, and as we get older and care less about performing that way, but still, my lived experience contradicts the idea that the Sam/Frodo romantic narrative is inherent to the story rather than something applied by the reader. I'd argue that a face-value reading of their friendship as a platonic one is at least internally consistent.
Movie Sam shaped so much about what I search on guys, it isn't even funny.
as it should have
movie sam was really abusive and violent towards smeagol though. kind of a red flag for me.
@@kloggmonkey smeagol is a murderer, constantly trying to kill them, and he wants to steal the ring for himself, therefore jeopardizing the whole mission, possibly dooming the entire world
@@JV-ic6to i get that, but (in terms of qualities to look for in a man) i simply don't trust anyone who'd look at smeagol and, at the very least, wouldn't take pity on him. poor thing's been through enough you know.
and btw he wasn't "constantly trying to kill them", he tried to take them on once and got subdued without too much of a hassle and started sobering up right after. without his help they would never have made it. and he was doing so well too, he wanted to be better and was well on his way, but the fuckers pushed him over the edge. and sam's behaviour only made things worse.
had he been as understanding as frodo who knows, perhaps smeagol would've been fully rehabilitated by the end?
all i'm saying is that movie sam was needlessly violent and abusive towards the most pitiful of creatures, and that's a good indication if anything that he's got some rather toxic qualities.
It appears to be a common flaw in the thinking of the acolytes of the current spirit of the age that love must be romantic in nature. Of course, once the art leaves the artist whatever you, as the reader, want to make of it is completely fine. Just don't assume your interpretations are implicit/explicit in the text and are therefore intended by the author. Overall, this video is a textbook example of eisegesis (in the case of Tolkien/LOTR specifically).
Amazing video. Thanks! I always thought Gandalf and Saruman had a bit of a “bitter ex” dynamics between them. Gandalf had a better therapist though.
Oh mister Frodo, why can't I quit you?
So you're just making me watch Brokeback of the Rings aren't you?
Not me stumbling across this right as i finish the books and cry everyday about frodo and sam
Tolkien is disinterested in war? Perhaps that’s supposed to mean something other than what I read it as? Because Tolkien survived the Somme and lost many of his friends in the trenches. He probably hated war but considering it’s a central theme of The Hobbit, LotR and The Silmarillion I would hardly call his relationship to war disinterested. Male friendship and brotherhood is obviously the most important aspect in LotR, but he treats war very seriously as far as I’m concerned, not merely as a backdrop to shape the bonds between the characters.
My great Aunt lived with her partner Margot for 40 years. Margot was in tears the last time I spoke to her, in her 90s, and said she was family. I wish I had more time to spend with them and learn what it must have been like in 1950s Yorkshire when they met
Oh, I'm totally a Gimli.
sorry, but if there is a film/book that does not deal with sexuality is The Lord of The Rings. Why do you assume its quer? Its just about honesty and friendship, i don't see whats gay about it, aside from people trying to make it weird.
and just to make it clear, there is nothing wrong if it was gay. i'm just saying that i don't see it in TLotR and both Tolkien and Jackson never, in anyway, suggested that it was behind the scenes. i'm saying this as a fanatic that watched every film in in every way possible and all the commentary tracks, plus all 20+ hours of behind the scenes material.
These people are perveted, they can't see past their own libido and project their views of sexuality unto others. Same mechanism that creates pedophiles
I feel like in context the lack of an explicitly romantic relationship between a lot of the male characters isn't necessarily an issue, for me at least? Because Tolkien was a literature guy, so I always feel like his love stories, and possibly his entire concept of male/male romance/relationships might be a bit more coded in like, old medieval stuff, like knightly love and shit from king arthur or whatever. Basically I feel like you don't have to say that "these guys are definitely banging" not because he's afraid to write that, but possibly because he actually thinks the more chaste idea of love and romance is, in some way, better.
I dunno, I get the desire for perhaps a more modern form of romance to be represented among the male characters but I don't know if you could do that without it conflicting with the alternate, more historically coded interpretation of same sex relationships?
As far as movie scenes that make me cry every single time go, I always think of that one scene where Sam is going after Frodo in the boat even though he can't swim and Frodo has to save him.
"Go back Sam! I'm going Mordor alone!"
"Of course you are! and I'm coming with you!"
There's is the most perfect love 😭
Thank you for the great video! I fundamentally disagree with the opinion that it has romantic undertones, or that it would be better if there was an explicit gay relationship. As a cis white dude I enjoy that the friendships are so touching without being romantic. Often media is afraid to show men caring for each other in a platonic manner and that is harmful to society too. Like, men are so scared to just be close to each other and it can be alienating af.
I'm not saying cis white guys have the same plight as the LGBT community. I fully recognize that we need more LGBT representation in media. I just don't think lotr needs it to be perfect. The friendships are amazing and the fact that relationships aren't explicitly romantic is a good thing in my opinion. Anyone can relate to lotr as is, and it's still valid to read some relationships as gay if that's your background. The ambiguity allows more people to relate without alienating anyone. Unfortunately; if Sam and Frodo were a couple the series probably wouldn't have the legacy it does. Its sad to say that, but when it was published people were even more close minded than they are today . Also, I thought your takes were really interesting and your channel is amazing! I love your content and don't want this comment to be seen as an attack, just a difference in opinions. ❤
I think the depiction of these intense friendships between men is also due to women simply not existing in the same spaces as men back then and not being able to share their experiences. Your war buddy is going to be closer to you than the wife you didn't see for a long time.
THIS!
All these "non-heteronormative" readings from modern day people are never taking the historical context into account. People may read it any way they want, but Tolkien most definitely would not have read it that way, in fact, he would have vehemently changed the story if he felt that a majority of people would have seen it that "non-heteronormative" way. His war experiences, the intimacy with his comrades were formative experiences of his youth and of the generation after, and that is something that as women, we especially, just cannot understand, because we do not live in the gender-divided world of yore anymore.
I just discovered your channel today, and this is the second video I’ve watched. Three years after it came out, so you’ll probably never see this comment. In any case I have to say how very much I enjoyed this video. I’m in my early 50s, and only came out to myself in my late forties. I’m consuming queer content as quickly I can. I’ve always been a fantasy fan, but never entirely understood why I’m so drawn to it and science fiction. I’m still figuring things out, of course, but this video made me understand an important part of my identity more. When Molly was mentioning how she began to understand the reason for her attraction to the Talented Mr Ripley that she didn’t understand in her youth, that really resonated with me. There’s a lot of movies and media stuff that made me uncomfortable for most of my life because of internalized homophobia and denial and, honestly, not understanding what it was that I was feeling because it was the 70s and eighties and the only representation of LGBT stuff in media was negative. I’m definitely going to check out that Charlieze Theron movie. I can’t believe I haven’t watched it. Of course, it was when I was just starting to figure things out so maybe I wasn’t ready. Wonderful video! New subscriber.
I've always thought the discourse around "Tolkein sexist because women characters are insignificant" could easily be turned into a "Tolkein gay because women characters are insignificant". It never read like he didn't like women to me, more like he just forget they existed due to a lack of interest.
I am pro-LGBT interpretation of Tolkien but it makes sense that his book inspired by his time as a soldier doesn't have a lot of women in it.
And y'know, he was also Catholic, so having a caste treatment towards women is definitely more in-line with how he'd treat it.
@@guyunderwood2297 I mean, it's also a fantasy version of the medieval era, and when taking that into account, I'd say that the number of female characters is actually pretty high. I would argue that Tolkien's work is a superb showcase of genuinely independent, genuinely powerful women, because all the women with major roles *actually do shit* and are never presented as "lesser" . Especially in the Silmarilion with the character of Luthien. She *rescues her husband-to-be* of her own volition, with only the help of the Goodest Boy, Huan.
@Zoe Leier Tolkien also gave Eowyn this superb slap down to Aragorn, “All your words are but to say: ‘you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more.’”
Tolkien may not have written many women, but his female characters are so marvelous. Indeed, it’s Eowyn’s femininity that means she can defeat the Witch King. It’s all part of his theme of undervalued people saving the day instead of the big strong men.
I loved this, both as a big ole cis gay LOTR fan and Maggie fan. Definitely eager to watch The Old Guard now.
I just finished it!! So good!!!
while i'm not opposed to Frodo and Sam having the possibility of being lovers,
i feel that limiting it that undermines and does harm to the idea of men not being able to love each other as friends lest they be gay,
and reinforces the whole men dont have feelings (and specially not for each other even as friends) mentality.
also, while I dont know the intimate details of Tolkien's personal life thus i cant discount the possibility of him basing his fiction on his love for another man, I can more certainly say that since he mostly based his story on his time in WWI, so I would expect him to write about comradery and the love that men develop for each other in those life or death situations as brothers in arms, which has been said to transcend things found in normal life, perhaps even the love of romantic partners.
(But isn't that perhaps even more romantic in some way? Often love is just about wanting someone for yourself, beyond that, some people manage to just want happiness for their loved one no matter whom they're with, but wouldn't it then doing everything you can to make sure your friend lives and is safe be even a step above that?)
The term 'love ' is used in England as a term of endearment like 'How you doing love?'. I'm not saying your wrong but is used in a more asexual way, for both male and female. For examples watch East Enders.
Ah, I'm so excited! I've been thinking about rewatching the 'Lord of the Rings' films again mostly just because I love Sam and Frodo's relationship so much. Elijah Wood and Sean Astin have the kind of chemistry that simply isn't fair.
Yesssss, the way they look at each other always makes my heart flutter. They entwine their souls with their eyes. ❤
On a super random note, in certain parts of the UK calling people "my love" or saying "thank you lover" isn't necessarily romantic, and can even be between strangers. This is in more rural areas like I imagine the shire being based on.
I do sometimes call some of my friends and family my love, but more because I think it's cute.
But u know not sinking any ships. Sam & Frodo are so cute. Also thanks for the Aro/Ace shout out :)
The Old Guard is super underrated imo. I fucking loved it so much!!
There is such a thing as love between people without romance
Exactly! Platonic relationships exist.
@@legoshocktoyphotographer0451 "Plutonic" lol
@@madamii I appreciate the correction.
@@legoshocktoyphotographer0451 Np. I thought it sounded funny
Sure, agreed. Now, consider the following: There is also, sometimes, just gay romance between people.
I keep thinking back to watching Return of the King with my roommate in college, him squirming uncomfortably in his seat because Sam cradling Frodo in his arms was "very gay" while I'm sobbing my eyes out at how beautiful their friendship was.
"I mean I loved Harry Potter, RIP J.K. Rowling"
I mood this. to be fair, I have come to like it less after being exposed to both amazing worldbuilding, incredible stories, and artlike prose, while HP is still good, it's not exeptional in any way (besudes popularity) so I feel like I've outgrown it, but it helped shape me enough that it stung when I found out the author is preaching stuff that gets girls like me killed on the street to her gigantic fanbase of mostly young people.
So you're mad at the fact a famous author said you're not a woman and that's factually wrong how? This is me assuming you're a transsexual based on what I read. If you're a man but want to be a "woman" then call yourself a transsexual not a woman because you can't pretend be one.
Bless you for taking a moment to mention a possible aro/ace POV on the relationships in LotR.
I'm a cis-het guy, but finds this very interesting! I think the first gay character I recognized (and think was early on good representation), was Carter Heywood in the sitcom Spin City. He is a gay character, but not a walking stereotype as much as a sitcom allowed in the 90s.
Damn, your scriptwriting is phenomenal ! I discovered you a while back through the Behind the Bastards podcast (after randomly searching for A. Fish's descendants - don't ask me why, I was bored), but had yet to actually check out your channel. I'm so pleasantly surprised ! It's a shame I didn't check out your channel earlier. I'm gonna fix that and check out more videos of yours :)
I'm also excited that you're gonna work with Jessie Gender - I've been following her for years and love her content !
Pretty sure that seeing Naruto kiss Sasuke accidentally as a gag in Naruto awakened something in me at the bright young age of nine
Ah, I already knew what I was feeling at that scene when I first watched it. Instead, for me that moment was Kingdom Hearts - but like, all of it. Everything in that game series before KHIII was so very gay.
@@thatboringone7851 like in KH2 when Sora finds Riku and hold his hands and breaks down sobbing right there when earlier he got reunited with Kiari and was just like ‘oh hey girl king time no see 🥰’ ahdjshdjd
Perfect timing, I rewatch the trilogy between Xmas and NYE every year so it's fresh in my mind :)
I really needed this, my daughter just came out as gay and I love her so much...I am so afraid the world is just full of idiots.
I think when analyzing the relationship of Frodo and Sam it is important that we look at Tolkein's WW1 experience but more broadly the experience of officers and their Batman. No, not That *Batman* . A "Batman" was essentially an orderly who performed miscellaneous tasks for an officer. Many Batman after the war served their former officers as servants on their estates. I can't think of any description that fits Sam better than that, especially given that Frodo is clearly of the "landed gentry" and Sam of the working class. So when we look at the dynamic of the relationship and Sam's clear statements of affection, we shouldn't forget that he is in effect a servant. If we view Sam as a WW1 Batman and Frodo as his officer, it is clearly in Sam's interest to convey affection or a liking to his officer; if it was modelled after real life examples. So I don't think it's far fetched to assume if Tolkein modelled their interactions on real occurrences that some of the Sam-Frodo relationship is based on an affection and friendship that was motivated by self interest. A Batman had a better job than the average rifleman in the trenches. A good way to keep that is to foster that friendship or affection with you officer, even if it has to be contrived. We should take this into account with Sam and Frodo's relationship.
These people don't care about this. They're stuck in their own world
Time for some hand holding and blushing, aw yeah
Currently reading The Two Towers for the first time, and an exchange happened between Gimli and Legolas wherein they promised one another that they would walk with the other through their respective beautiful places. Gimli loves and adores the untouched (for a dwarf) Helms Deep. Legolas, the forest of Fangorn.
In a later chapter when Tree Beard invites Legolas to freely visit Fangorn, Legolas says he will not go without Gimli because of their promise to do those things together. Whether romantic or platonic, I found the exchanges to be notable. A promise made is a promise kept between these two characters, even if it never comes to pass. These two men expressed deep love for places that held meaning to them, the other respectfully acknowledged that importance, and promised to share the experience with the other. I loved that.
Don't forget that Legolas *waits for another 122 years* to Go Into the West/The Undying Lands/Aman, despite the fact he had been yearning to do so since he heard the sound of a seagull in Return of the King, all because he was waiting for Aragorn to pass. Or that Gimli was the *only* Dwarf to go there(Aman), which speaks to his bottomless love for Legolas, seeing as how Dwarves are innately connected to Middle Earth and are attached to it in a deep, spiritual way that none of the other Races are.
I didn't read anything sexual, the films in general just demonstrate a healthy approach to masculinity and friendship. Charecters are able to be fully expressive without the hang ups of being deemed 'gay' or 'butch' or 'masculine' or 'feminine' . They feel and express free of any hang ups which is beautiful and a positive message for males who are often made to feel such feelings are somehow "gay" and that "gay" = bad. It changes the equation. I think Aragon is the perfect example, a man who hits many the typical masculine tropes while exemplifying many feminine tropes. Its great.
I only just noticed that you had a box for Loom on the shelf behind you and frankly I'm embarrassed it took me this long to pick up on it.
You are to be commended for your excellent taste in early nineties adventure games featuring music from ballets, in addition to your other analysis.
“What would Merry be without Pippin?” In that meetcute with Eowyn that Tolkien back-pedaled away from. :/
This is a great video. My two cents that nobody asked for:
It's important to remember the context that the Lord of the Rings series was written; Tolkien started writing this setting very shortly after being removed from service in WWII. He participated in the Battle of the Somme, one of the deadliest battles in human history. In such situations, social mores and structures often break down. I think it's interesting to read The Lord of the Rings as a form of art therapy. Veterans often long for the sort of camaraderie and clearness of purpose they saw in wartime deployment.
Tolkien likely witnessed outward camaraderie and even love between men that would have been rare to see for a man with such a stuffy upbringing. It's little wonder that so many of the relationships are coded as gay; the likely inspirations would have had homosexual under AND overtones. It's very easy to see Frodo as the author insert; a man who saw, felt and lived to the absolute extreme of human (hobbit?) existence, so much so that he had to leave and go into the west. This is a pretty clear analog for PTSD or shell shock, as it was known at the time. Tolkien himself was removed from service due to being declared medically unfit after the Somme.
Listen, I know it's not what you meant, but I wasn't looking at the screen during the intro, and it definitely sounded like this episode was brought to you by 'my patrons and bi-curiosity stream'.
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now THERE's a subscription service I'd sign up for
I kind of found the old guard to be dull, and frustratingly morose. Except when you had Yusuf and Nikolò who made for some of the best parts of the action scenes, were not constantly lamenting their super powers, and all the while they described their passionate past Im sat there thinking 'Why the hell am I not watching _that_ movie!'
I'm so glad I found someone who thinks the same, 'cause I really, really wanted to like the Old Guard, but for me it had a big "tell don't show" issue. The character also all had the same voice, and I honestly cannot tell you how any of them differ from each other apart from in age.
The music was also atrocious. Yeah, don't @ me, every single time a fight scene started i cringed because of the awful, energy-sucking song that would unavoidably ensue.