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Hearts of Iron 4's Representation of World War 2
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- Опубликовано: 30 апр 2018
- Justin, who has a Master in Military History, and me (Military History Visualized) talk about the representation of the Second World War in the game Hearts of Iron IV (and III).
Original Podcast here: shows.pippa.io/military-histo...
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Military History Vlogs is a support channel to Military History Visualized with a focus personal accounts, answering questions that arose on the main channel and showcasing events like visiting museums, using equipment or military hardware.
» SOURCES «
Brown, Ian: Logistics. In: Winter, Jay (ed.): The Cambridge History of the First World War, Volume II. The State
Supple, Barry: War Economies. In: Winter, Jay (ed.): The Cambridge History of the First World War, Volume II. The State
Prost, Antoine: Workers. In: Winter, Jay (ed.): The Cambridge History of the First World War, Volume II. The State
Ziemann, Benjamin: Agrarian Society. In: Winter, Jay (ed.): The Cambridge History of the First World War, Volume II. The State
Fear, Jeffrey: War of the factories. In: Geyer, Michael (ed); Tooze, Adam (ed): The Cambridge History of the Second World War, Volume III. Total War: Economy, Society and Culture.
Collingham, Lizzie: The human fuel: food as global commodity and local scarcity. In: Geyer, Michael (ed); Tooze, Adam (ed): The Cambridge History of the Second World War, Volume III. Total War: Economy, Society and Culture.
Miller, Michael: Sea transport. In: Geyer, Michael (ed); Tooze, Adam (ed): The Cambridge History of the Second World War, Volume III. Total War: Economy, Society and Culture.
Edgerton, David: Coal, iron ore and oil in the Second World War. In: Geyer, Michael (ed); Tooze, Adam (ed): The Cambridge History of the Second World War, Volume III. Total War: Economy, Society and Culture.
Lesser, Ian I.: Resources and Strategy
» CREDITS & SPECIAL THX «
Song: Ethan Meixsell - Demilitarized Zone
Follow-Up video on the Man the Guns DLC: ruclips.net/video/Kko6ZjZU4-k/видео.html
Paradox must have watched this video because they just announced 'Man the Guns' which will add fuel as a resource and greater fleet customization options.
HoI4 is a very faithful representation of the 2nd world war. Who can forget when Japan allied with Paraguay and staged an invasion of the United States - which had recently become a puppet state of the USSR and turned to communism? It was a historic event that will not soon be forgotten.
LOL ...
These days, the so-called History Channel only covers what happens in a pawn shop in Las Vegas so I'm not up to date on my history.
HoI is a game with plenty of complex and supposedly realistic mechanics, but at the end of day you still can conquer the world with Belgium...
RouGeZH Yeah, but if you conquer the world as Belgium in black ICE that's quite an accomplishment.
you mean Luxembourg
Are you saying we belgians aren't capable? You sir underestimate our quality pitchforks
SerFapAlot They are also underestimating the Belgian Luftwaffle.
Tarureror annexed the soviet union with tannu tuva
Watching this while alt tabbing a HoI4 lobby and hearing people screech on discord.
10/10
YES. Thank you for uploading this, no one has done anything like this before. I love both HoI 3 and 4
Also YES to such a long video!
Hoi3 with Black Ice was scary at times
One issue I see with the flight mechanics is the fact that aircraft don't have any flight paths. If I fly aircraft from the UK to bomb targets in France, any aircraft my opponent has flying over the English Channel are entirely mute and have no effect for intercepting my bombers on the flight out or back.
I'm also a bit disappointed that the small arms, tanks, and artillery all have the same game statistics. A Soviet KV-1 has the same stats as a German Tiger I unless the players controlling them modifies them differently. If we are going to have vehicles, weapons, and equipment by name then I wish they would have some asymmetrical statistics to represent the different particulars of those things. Y'all touched a little bit on this with ships, but I didn't hear anything on the land or air based forces.
I'm a little surprised y'all didn't comment about the addition of Army Groups. While it's not much of a mechanics change and wouldn't be that difference between the comments about the army planner (although I've found that the army group planner infinitely worse than what is done just at the army level.
very good point! Didn't notice that, but I barely played the game while looking at the mechanics.
well, that part I understand.
I never used them and it is a minor change, not sure if Justin actually played since that update. We usually talk about stuff we know.
I didn't notice this flaw with aircraft until I was looking up videos on how to get the most out of my air forces and someone pointed that out.
All of the discussions I've read and participated in basically comes down to using army groups for nothing more than giving units the extra bonuses from the field marshals that command them, but otherwise to keep to using the army level planning for front lines, offensives and the like. It's probably nothing worth spending a lot of time on, but I'm glad you now have some additional information moving forward for future videos on this topic.
This has been a splendid video and I look forward to future posts.
@Robert Fisher the "army group" mechanic also made an earlier exploit impossible, whereby a player would have all of his troops under control of a single field-marshal, therefore getting all the bonuses and ranking up said general much faster.
@Louis
How did it make the earlier exploit impossible? I never really tracked the experience because of how long it took, but as far as I can tell, the army group mechanic is identical to the army level, except that it's far less efficient (I've had several instances of it leaving gaps in my front line for the enemy to exploit, and actively losing a front in one instance). Given that it is led by field marshals only, I would think that you could still make a single "army group" with your entire army and move on as normal.
The new mechanic has Field Marshalls not lead armies (those are for generals), but army groups, which as the name implies, are groups of armies. Since generals can only lead 24 divisions if they are on the frontline, players have to assign a new general for every group of 24 divisions. This means that you can't have a rank 7 field marshal (+70% attack/defense) give those bonuses to every single division.
The field marshals still give bonuses, but they are balanced in that consideration.
You also don't control the strategic plan from the army-group level. You have to assign each army a frontline and orders. If the automatic orders to divisions leave gaps in your frontline, chances are you assigned a frontline that is too long, meaning there are not enough divisions in your army to occupy each frontline province.
My biggest problem with Hoi4 is the amount of divisions the AI pumps out. It is not too uncommon for the Soviet Union to have like 300 to 400 divisions and ten thousand airplanes during the mid to late game (even if they didn't go through a single war). Also you can manufacture huge amount of planes in a small time, because there is no pilot training etc.
Yeah the production system and the way air wings are set up bugs me. And yeah, I've fought 400 Soviet divisions haha, it's ridiculous. Ending a war where they are hitting 10 million casualties, yikes.
My one hundred ships large navy, with every single destroyer and light cruiser having 5/5 anti-air, was completely destroyed in less than two years by the red air-force. They had up to four thousand naval bombers, and CAS in the Black Sea.
On equipment differentiation.
One way to go is to look at Stellaris where you research modules, or parts of the ship, then you put them together as you like, making your own model of the tank/ship/plane.
Let's make the example of tank desing; the armor reaserch tab should also have: Welded Hull, Cast Hull, Welded Turret, Cast Turret. Riveted Hulls/Turrets and Fixed Turrets should be the unlocked by default, or already researched for major powers.
You could design a '43 medium tank by clicking on the medium tank tab, add Welded Hull+Cast Turret+35/50/75/85/88/122mm gun taken from the Artillery Research Tab
You could cut on research days in exchange for less reliability (like a proper Panther)
Other design features like armor thickness or sloped armor would be included in the i.e '43 medium hull design for the sake of simplicity
Want to design a Stug? '39 Welded Hull+Fixed Turret+75mm gun and you have your beautiful tank destroyer.
Then we could add more considerations, like Germany? They get a Welded costruction thing in the focus tree that cuts on research cost, Soviet Russia? You like cast turrets, Italy? You are locked with rivets so your tanks are heavier and less protected, but hey they cost way less to produce.
Anyway, this is my perfect world.
I absolutely agree that the research has to be more imbricated. It is a bit ridiculous that you can design a 150+ piercing TD while not even having researched 25mm AT guns. ^
I would expand on your idea by having "development time", in addition to research for parts, i.e. the time it takes the engineers to put their ideas together and actually design the vehicle/weapon-system. This would provide an incentive to push forward tried designs (all the versions of the PzKfw III / IV) which take much shorter development (i.e. stop-gap measures), while working on your next big upgrade.
For such a modular system to really bring something though, you would probably need two things :
1) A report system, which informs you about the performance of your equipment (e.g. "our chassis is excellent, but our guns can't pierce enemy armour")
2) Expanding upon the statistics (and notably combat-caracteristics) of the vehicle, in order to represent superior tactical mobility, responsiveness, etc. You don't necessarily need to have the bigger gun in war, what matters is for it to be in the right position.
Finally, as nice perk (touched upon in the vid'), it would be interesting to have more influence on the exact composition of an armoured group, representing for example how Fireflies and normal Shermans would be mixed together.
Obviously, what goes for tanks should probably also go for aircraft and big boats
Oh so like Man the guns but tanks.
About the air training. What you could do is have an ability in the politics tab where you can set the number of flight hours pilots are required. But i would also add a pilot manpower pool seperate from the normal one
I would add the same thing for the navy
I believe that the game design decision to remove resources, specifically coal and fuel, was to remove redundant responsibility from the player and shift the player's focus onto the game's other systems
That line of thinking asks : why do you need to track oil and fuel if the end result is both are used to run ships, tanks and airplanes? Just simplify the whole thing and merge them into one resource that can be easily identified and managed by the player. I personally like more micromanagement but I totally agree with simplification of mechanics to shift the focus of the player onto something that the designer wants to shine.
The real question then becomes what do you want, as a game designer, to have the player focus on. In this case they did not want us to focus on converting the resources. They wanted us to focus on acquiring and spending the resources.
"Its almost like its an unfinished game."
One thing that Hoi II (and later Darkest Hour) did well is to group all energy sources (wind, hydro, coal...) into "Energy" while leaving fuel appart. The thing is that there was a tech tree on the Industrial page for Synthetic Fuel conversion, so once you got your energy supply secured, you begin to covert a little part of your energy stock into fuel (i mean, you could get around 20 to 50 oil units from that, which fuels around 7 to 16 motorized divisions, no aditional brigades included).
That encourages the player to learn and circunvent their oil problems. For example, in my first game of DH, i ran out of oil as Germany in 1942-3 because of poor planning and autarky. That being said, the penalties for not suplying your troops are big enough to consider (units depending on fuel move much slower, less combat efficiency, smaller organization recover rate). A wise player will try to leech Romania, the Soviets and the US of their oil, even if it means strenghtening a future enemy
In addition to the mechanics of the game, there is also the historical events to consider. A specific unhistorical event is the Soviet Great Purge: if the Purge is not done, a civil war results. This is what Stalin would like you to think (and this is what is in Stalin's propaganda), but in reality there was no such coordinated conspiracy which could have resulted in a civil war against Stalin.
Ilverin Curunethir #Stalindidnothingwrong
We know from Trotsky's memoirs that he was in contact with actively working with illegal organizations inside the USSR including people such as Zinoviev, we have claims from people such as Jules Humbert-Droz who, in the 70's, after Droz had went from being a supporter of the right-opposition to a social democrat, had made the claim that while he was working with the right-opposition Bukharin informed him of a plan to kill Stalin in an attempt to seek his aid, despite the fact he had been consistently ideologically opposed to Stalin for decades and had been aligned with Bukharin. The idea that there was in fact a Trotskyite plot to dispose of Stalin is not so ludicrous.
Lets not forget how the planing mechanic works. When you make a front line, all divisions just bunch up and have no reserve or backup divisions at the back.. Its all in a line.
Yes, because you're assigning that army to that front line. If you want a reserve, don't fucking assign the units of an army to a front line. It's really that fucking easy. There's even a tool for it where you can assign your units to an arbitrary set of provinces. Just use that to place units behind your front line. Problem solved.
Does anybody else remember NATO counters? Paradox literally banned discussion of them on the forum and said that they would never include them, but had to give in eventually because a significant part of the community wanted them. They abandoned the original fans and scrapped far too many of the more immersive and time consuming mechanics, leaving a game that feels shallow and unrealistic. The HoI4 devs were far too stubborn in defending some of their early gameplay decisions (no fuel, removing OOB) and now are having to slowly add them back in.
Yeah but NATO didn't even exist back then :)
That's my problem with it. They've dumbed down so much (streamlined is a significant understatement) that it's a different game, almost something you'd expect from a console port. It's super grindy by design as opposed to by opponent. Germany with 300+ divisions at Barbarossa? Give me a break. Romania holding against the Soviet Union just fine n dandy just because they researched infantry equipment level 2?
I was getting back into it with Black ICE but that's a crash fest now. Tried with Total War and it was fine up until their events debuffed my army because I was "caught by surprise" even though we have been fighting for 3 months already which led to Poland capitulating which resulted in my entire army being cut off from supplies because the game HAS to give all the land to the conqueror no matter the circumstance.
Went back to HOI3 Black ICE and negligently left my flank open as Japan when I declared war on China and had more fun and immersion from my own screw up and trying to salvage the situation.
HOI4 is fun, it's just sooooo simple that it ruins the "Heart" of the game for me.
The wanted to appeal to a more general, dumber audience, because they just went public and thought that a dumber game would mean a bigger group of possible players, which looks better to shareholders. Apparently no thought was given to the fact that their current playerbase was there because of the complexity and historical bent of the games. Personally I've given up on Paradox...I can't even imagine what sort of simple, dumb version for Victoria 3 they would produce now, for instance.
Here comes the "they dumbed it down, mkay" crowd, despite the fact that Hearts of Iron 3 had a far simpler and less realistic system, the only thing they had going was the fact that units used oil (still not fuel). You don't even have to provide equipment to your troops in Hearts of Iron 3. Just assign IC and eventually WALLAH, you have a unit.
hey they added fuel finally
Isn’t coal included in steel as a combination of iron and coal?
“Coal was the main energy source of industrialized societies, the key fuel for transport on land and sea, industry, electricity and gas generation, the making of iron and steel, and domestic heating.” (Edgerton, David: Coal, iron ore and oil in the Second World War. In: Geyer, Michael (ed); Tooze, Adam (ed): The Cambridge History of the Second World War, Volume III. Total War: Economy, Society and Culture; p. 126)
He's talking about as a game mechanic.
yeah, but that game mechanic makes no bloody sense, since, e.g., Sweden had lots of good iron ore, but almost no coal / coke, they imported it from Poland pre-war and then from Germany.
refineries don’t eat into steel supply
Coal used as an additive to make iron into steel is not that much. Mostly the coal was used for heating the metal.
In Hearts of Iron 3 Coal was basically lumped into the Energy category.
Also, in HoI3 the synthetic refineries converted 'energy' into 'crude oil'.
This video should be shared with a HOI4 Dev's
I really like the way the Endsieg mod handels Fuel and Rations with you having to produce them like other equippment and send out to your army. The big problem though is that this does not affect air or naval units.
Paradox, their games never stop changing. In both good and bad ways.
>HoI 4
>representation of WWII
You can only pick one.
9 Dislikes are 9 Paradox Devs
I do think that improving the air war with more things like tactics that could swing the favour of an air engagement where experience and tactics can have an effect similar to ground tactics counters.
Some of my favorite HoI3 moments were when I was doing intense micromanagement of the war where I would run the game on speed 1-2 and spend pretty much a whole gaming session on a single in-game month.
In HoI4 I basically just Declare War and let the enemy throw themselves at my entrenched line until they run low on manpower and equipment and I can run over them with my now elite divisions. I am very detached from the details in most of the battles in HoI4 while HoI3 certainly made me more committed to the progress.
I suspect the reason coal is not represented is that it is not a *direct* component of equipment production.
Perhaps it would be best to think of coal as being represented by civilian industry capacity.
I think a big problem is the way the game represents a nations economy. Like the game just pretends money doesn't exist so they have to represent economic issues with horribly unfun debuffs
Phedora Its complicated, I prefer the way the game represents the economy given the complexities of simulating an actual money economy. Case in point Supreme Ruler, a game that tries to be way to complex and winds up just being broken.
Bruce 9847 yes but there's a better way of going about things
Phedora True, I'm just saying things like tax rates, foreign currency exchange rates, and inflation rates would be not a lot of fun either and also would wind up being buggy and gamey.
A country can never run out of money.
It is actully the resources that determines how much money a country can create without getting inflation, so I wish that paradox would do the opposite of what you suggest and remove it as much as possible - and especially in the Europa universalis games, where the game developers shows that they are clueless about economics.
When you in Europa universalis tax money without spending it on research you will automatically get inflation.
But the real world operates the direct opposite way. When you take out more money from circulation in society than you pump in into it you will get deflation AND NOT INFLATION.
Governments don't need taxes to pay for wars. And the only reason war bonds exist is to hold inflation under control. And in peace time you can print as much money as you want as long as buisnesses and farmers can increase their production at the same rate. Then no resource shortages will arise that will push up prices.
So as long as there are unused land, empety factories and unemployed labour you will always be able to print money without getting any inflation, because that money will create consumer demand when it lands in someones hands out there in the economy.
So the government national debt is totally unimportant - atleast for a country with its own currency. Only an idiot is afraid of a high national debt.
Look at Victoria II, the most complex game economy I know of : 64 ressources, multiple social classes, real-time "stock market", privately-owned industries, taxes, subsidies, working-hours policies, social policies.
If they would rebuild HOI4's economy on that basis, I personally find it would be way more engaging and fun.
Maybe an air wing designer like division designer could help air combat, although I don't know how historical it would be.
Mechanic companies and other support companies, such as maybe AA (I don't really know what other companies to add, someone else definitely knows more about air combat who could chime in) to give air wings an advantage over each other besides tech. Also adding AA companies could help to give air bases an extra level of defense. For these extra companies though it would cost transport planes, which are expensivein HOI4 currently, and I think rightly so.
Maybe having the ability to add multiple of the same companies would be something to consider. If you don't want to produce AA guns but want to better ensure your planes won't be destoryed by enemy bombers bombing airbases you could have extra mechanics, or vice versa. I don't know how well that'd work tho.
Design air wings, make them go through training similar to divisions. You can rush deploy them or keep them in training for the full duration.
Maybe you could keep them in training for longer, but with diminishing returns. It'll cost equipment to keep them in training but they will be better trained (similar to excersising armies).
why do you think starvation would be too much for the game to tackle? without starvation the late game just because hellfire of nukes for years
This should be redone as HOI4 has completely changed compared to how it was when this video was made. Spies, fuel and more.
Preferably after the Barbarossa DLC is released because Italy, Soviets, Finland still has the base focus tree, no continuation war etc.
As of 2021,my biggest complaint is the fact you can't lend lease naval.
I like how KanColle in many ways does a better job at portraying naval combat than HOI4
Homura Akemi woke(?)
I agree 100% about fuel needing to be included, and so did paradox. they now have it as a core component of the game starting (I believe with man the guns)
Played as Germany and the only Tank i used was Panzer I tanks and was able to destroy soviet heavy and medium tanks
Stuff 96 hey the Russians won ww2 with loads of t34 and guys without rifles
EradWir wrong, at least on the 'guys without rifles'. At least you are already on a military history channel, it's a good start.
The Soviet Union had more rifles than Troops on the field. The only deficit is for the IQ of those who "studied" the Battle of Stalingrad before making that Enemy at the Gates movie.
I hoi4 you can instal a lot of good mods like resource war it adds copper and grain. You use copper to make light ammo and heavy ammo . The grain is used for rations that you need for deploing divisions (also to kepping them) and if you have deficit of it your population will suffer and it will give you debuffs AND YOU ALSO HAVE GASOLINE. YOU MAKE IT IN PRODUCTION PART. I think that hoi4 is better modded. Good video as always. Please respond. Thank you!!!
Sorry for my English im 13 years old kid from Czech republik
There is also The Great War mod. It ads coal and wood
If you want good naval mod instal Kaiserreich (pls dont kill me fo that) there are added pre Great War tech for ships and a lot of countries even Papal state has pre Great War battleship
Or the Expanded Resources mod.
nicht vorhanden yeah
I definitely would've preferred if they had the air combat system work similarly to the land forces in terms of how units are set up and deployed. Like for instance if they had air wing templates that had to be filled up by a certain number of planes, and then were automatically reinforced with new equipment as planes are lost, or upgraded with newer versions of planes. I really dislike that I need to manually micromanage disassembling air wings that are using outdated aircraft, and having to scroll through a big stockpile of airplanes from various tech levels when putting together new air wings. The system just feels cumbersome compared to the division template system that land units use which I really like.
I'd also definitely like it if, as you mentioned, there were a few different unit sizes (i.e. Fighter Squadron, Fighter Group, Air Force for US) that could be organized and deployed in that way also. It's nice I suppose to be able to customize the sizes of different air wings completely, but ultimately I think that just makes it more cumbersome.
The Hearts of Iron system isn't too bad; however the best I've played are the simulations written by Gary Grigsby.
ThatDamnedYankee Which simulations?
Gary Grigsby has several. The one that is the most thorough (yet still a bit DOS) is his War in the Pacific, Admirals edition. Be warned: I only play this once every four or so years...its THAT involved.
Could you do this Video again but with Black ICE mod for HoI 4 ?
Gengarplays 69 especially when they occasionally mention HOI3 mods improving the game. There are HOI4 mods for example that add fuel for infantry equipment (not for ships or planes though).
HOI IV on its own is pretty dry. Mods are what makes it the best game. Specifically Black Ice
Chris Wallace black ice, total war, anything that expands the research and tech variants heavily really helps me enjoy the game.
Black ice is a pretty shitty mod though. All it does is split up the nebulous category of 'infantry equipment' and 'support equipment' into a dozen micro-managey items, with no added value except complexity, which outweighs all the nice stuff they do add. Do you really think the Fuhrer or even the OKH would deal with that level of individual detail? Of course not! The historical stuff and extra division templates/new brigades/companies are nice, and are runied by the rest of the janky mod.
Road to 56 is probably the best historical total overhaul mod at the moment.
Black Ice isn't bad in my opinion, it's hard to play vanilla again as you have piss ant minors who can somehow stop you in your tracks where as there was a separate doctrine tree (which pisses me off playing as a minor lol) that helps in that regards. Estonia holding off the entire Soviet Army and somehow has AT,AA n what not in every division? Come on lol the only "bad" nations are the one's with a negative modifier and have nothing to do really with doctrine or equipment, though equipment stats do play a role they do so in a detrimental way. It doesn't matter if they level 3 infantry equipment and you only have level 1, if your tactics are there and you have lots of arty, tanks and aircraft and are numerically superior, you shouldn't lose 100,000 on the first damn day.
Haven't play Total War, but I will shortly.
I recommend the Decisive Campaigns series if you want a realistic operational level game (Brigade/Regimental size units) and Combat Mission (Battalion > Individual soldier) if you want a realistic tactical level game. Hoi4 has its problems, but it is a good representation of strategic level war.
Nice podcast as always, and yes i agree with the lack of fuel sortage in this game.
Also, some part of the site is bugged (expecialy the IJNAF part) so here it is :
combinedfleet.com/kaigun.htm
www.combinedfleet.com/ijna/ijnaf.htm
The point of the system as it currently works is that you pay the lifetime oil requirement up front for simplicity. Don't know if it's balanced properly, but that's the idea.
Personally, HOI Darkest Hour is my favorite
About using oil even in the production process or maintaining: watch the people maintain old machinery (steam or not) while they are running maybe in old documentaries. They use sometimes pounds of fat/oil at every joint while the machines are running. So I think the usage of oil in general was pretty big. They didnt have special ceramic coatings or so...
Listening to this today, they have now.implemented a fuel mechanic (but its so easy to exploit)
I think they removed all the stuff from the 3rd part to increase sales and it worked very well
If I look at Hoi4 nowadays and your criticism it's like they fixed their game almost entirely based on this podcast
there is mod called Expanded Resouces which gives you consumable fuel, light ammo and heavy ammo and rations to the production,
had much fun building it until i did send 6 panzer divisions into siberia and went out of rations and fuel man that attrition was scary :)
Funny, after this video came up, Fuel was indeed added.
29:38 I doubt that is a concern.
I mean headlines like: 'nuke ______ country to death' as ________ is applicable.
Although nukes do not cause civilian casualties in the game, but neither would a starvation mechanic have to do, but could lower the surrender threshold or apply a similar penalty.
gtafbi1 Am I sick for wanting to be able starve Germany and Japan as Britain to the extent of wiping out the entire civilian population? Also strategic bombing doesn't really capture how destructive it is and air warfare is underwhelming in general
Oh wow hoi4 has changed a lot in the past 5 years
Would be nice to have Justin share some thoughts on the improvements made by Man the Guns on the fuel and naval systems.
Personally when playing Japan after the recent patch I really feel the thirst for oil and the experience of constsntly living hand to mouth because my supply of fuel is never more than a few weeks worth.
Please, make another video talking about the new things that Paradox added (like, ships designs, Fuel, new mode of supressing resistance, etc.. )
did that already: ruclips.net/video/Kko6ZjZU4-k/видео.html
Good news on the fuel aspect is that they are adding that in the next big dlc/update for hoi4
HoI4 The Resource War mod - steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1209878005 It makes Fuel and rations a production with super high attrition. I reckon Paradox should just use this, its simple, just requires some rebalancing.
I love the production system but I think it needs to be rebalanced as I really have to worry about land equipment shortages mid-war. I think aircraft reqire tomany factories compared to tanks and artilary.
How is Naval combat with 'fleet' composition? I find its realy in my intrest to make small task forces like force Z with 2 chaptals and 4 escorts, Operation Rheinübung, or Henry Harwood 4 crusier squadron. Every fleet I send out is a 'doom stack' like the Japanse combind fleet that attacked Midway.
I know real navies do doom stack but I wish there was more ensentive to use small task forces as ships have more personality and character and it makes naval deployment more intresting.
This just made me want to play hoi4again
Want more stuff to produce etc, try Black Ice mod, which tries to be a bit more historical. For things like fuel and ammo you have the BICE Submod : Fuel & Ammo to fix that little issue of your tanks not needing oil.
Wow, I forgot how different HoI 4 used to be.. No fuel, no XP for air wings :D
A lot of great points, hopefully with time they can fix and tweak the game so it can be enjoyable for both casuals and in-depth players. HoI4 developers better be taking notes...
I think that food should be a resource in this game since it was key factor to the allied victory in the first world war and the attack of Soviet Russia.
When you talk about "removing" features, a better way to think about it is which features to re-add. Considering how they started over with a different iteration of the Clausewitz engine and had a a different design philosophy its unfair to imagine them cutting out features.
Hoi4 takes liberties with the concept of 'abstraction' for the sake of simplicity. If you had to sell/lease resources for money or make stuff and sell it for money, then use the money to buy resources or other stuff, you can see how the money part is just a step in between, that in the game can be simply removed. The only question then becomes balance and attributing relative values to things, in term or factories or production cost, whereas they would otherwise have a monetary value.
I am happy with HOI using abstraction to simplify game mechanic. It still makes sense and its still realistic but it does do away with the complexity of inflation and other such, especially the relative cost of a resource that is spares. This could be addressed by having variable 'costs' for things, but then you're better of just going back to money. Quite the useful thing. Its why we use it irl xD
I think HOI4 is more friendly but needs serious re-balancing around resources. I would like to see 2 things change before I can say the game is 10/10:
1. Enable the player to demand more factories for resources if the country asking for said resources doesnt have an alternative. ''Supply and demand drive prices'' should apply..
2. Enable the player to use civilian factories to unlock all building slots in a state. Either by having a fixed cost for 'infrastructure' or whatever they would use to justify/abstract the new 'slot' or an increasing cost with every new slot unlocked being more expensive than the last. This would enable players to play tall. And to prevent the USA and Germany, etc from snowballing out of control, maybe add a cost modifier to unlocking the slots based on the total number of states and/or number of existing factories, or simply increase the number of civilian factories needed for consumer goods. It pisses me off to no end that there is this artificial, contrived constraint to how many factories you can build. It has no realism justification and serves no purpose other than justify the factory slots tech.. but that leaves you with some state having only a small number of factories out of the total.. for no good reason at all.. Paradox, please fix.
They do have an inflation mechanic, though it is also pretty simple: some focuses increase an inflation status, others decrease it. Not sure if every country gets this or just Japan and China, but if only Japan and China I suspect if it is popular enough of a mechanic it will get added to others. I agree that number 1 should be added, but I a wondering what exactly you mean in 2.
I'll add that one very lacking feature (imho) is the ability to buy production straight from neutral countries. Historically, this is how France planned to support rearmament, using foreign "military factories" to supplement the lack of domestic industry. In the game atm, the whole economy is controlled centrally, and it is basically impossible to get Lend Lease before two nations are on the same side.
In addition, not modelling companies means that some countries (notably France and Germany) get an artificial boost in efficiency, due to not having their military-industrial complex fight for political influence and contracts.
The Black Ice mod adds most of what you want I think. Check it out, it's crazy complex but totally worth it.
Anyone interested in having mechanics for gasoline, ammo, rations etc. should check out this mod in the workshop for HoI4:
steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1209878005
It's called "The Resource War", and as the name suggests it makes resources a much bigger part of the game, basically by requiring you to continuously produce consumable equipment (alongside guns and support equipment) for your divisions. The consumables have a very low reliability rating, so they tend to get used up very fast in large offensives. You will actually need to produce large stockpiles before starting a major war. This also makes it very difficult to fuel a large number of panzers, air units, etc. until you get your hands on your own large supplies of oil.
The Blackice mod has a fuel mechanic in it.
There is a Fuel, ammo, and food mod that makes you Stock pile these resources or else your divisions would not be able to move or fight.
I'm a bit dissapointed in Hoi4 but at the same time i don't think Hoi3 was amazing either. If i could cherrypick i would use (1)Hoi4 production and training system, without oil for production. (2) Hoi3 supply system and range based airplane deployment. Possibly with added supply centers so you dont need an unbroken line from capital all the time. Maybe even designated locations for the refineries that originates fuel. (3) Flightwing autoreinforce from hoi4, really hated having to micro calling off airwing beforeit was wiped out. (4) Resource system from hoi3 but with much more limited stockpile possibility. (5) Civilian factory as replacement for money from hoi4.
The next-best solution to Paradox actually adding in fuel to HoI IV is the Expanded Resources mod:
steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1119834544
It does have fuel, but it acts rather as equipment that, if your tanks don't have, they will not fight as effectively. Obviously, you need oil to produce fuel.
The mod was a little iffy from what I remember, but at least its something. There's a number of different versions for mod comparability, too.
You should do a review of the changes made in Man The Guns.
Coal is even a Battleships fuel.
For the oil stockpile, make a stockpile of “equipment” called “fuel”, that would be used by relevant units the same way those units would use rifles and such, just with very low reliability stat so it “breaks” (gets burned) by the units quickly
It would be produced by fuel refinery buildings that would be a separate category from military/naval factories, though on the same screen
There is a Mod called Expanded Resources which add Grain, Coal, and Wood as Resources and Rations(Food), Fuel, and Ammo(Heavy and Light) as supplies, the only error is that you start with no supplies and the impact of beeing without supply was to hard when I played it the last time because you get an National Spirit that slow down nearly everything(production, Armys..........)
I think paradox might have taken some notes for the man the guns dlc
Playing this while returning the Kaiserreich to its glory.
Someone needs to read these comments and put together the ultimate overhaul mod for HOI IV
Have you tried "War in the East"? It is a much more operationally minded game, although you do get into army building later as the Soviets. If so, how do you think it compares?
Hey can you make a video talking about Japanese invasion of Alaska ?
Luckily in MtG they did exactly what you guys suggested with the fuel system. It's weird that theyve now mixed natural oil (still has the oil drop symbol) with synthetic oil (no symbol, just the number) so that your fuel output breakdown is a little ... weird. I want a little symbol of some sort for synthetic or an equivalence with natural oil.
Also yeah all the ace-related shit is treated like a major event but a weak siren and tiny skull symbol near all the other flashing air region nonsense. I lost my pride of the fleet and I dont remember any popup whatsoever despite it having significant negative effects in-game. There's a lack of consistency in Hoi4 across various aspects from what ive noticed.
Air update next! Air units/combat needs a major overhaul for it to be fun. All aspects of it.
What are these "Rico Bombers" that they mention when talking about Japan at ~38:00? I've never heard of that before.
Rikko Bombers, those were land-based naval bombers.
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized
Thanks!
so I actually listened to this podcast 3 days ago, and today there's the news about a fuel rework. Pretty neat
forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/hoi4-dev-diary-fuel-review-and-motorized-artillery.1144796/&
There are great mods to add all this stuff in!
Could you make a video about why didnt the Axis attack Cyprus as they did with Crete?
Honest question: Did you two guys try the good ol' Darkest Hour Hoi2-Thing? Hoi3 is for me too much "work" and Hoi4 too "simple" - Darkest Hour gets - for me at least - the balance between fun, abstraction of concepts and authenthicty.
not sure about Justin, I bypassed HOI 2 for the most part; I played a lot of HOI, but in the time-frame when HOI 2 and HOI 3 came out, I almost did not play them and then in 2015 when I dug into HOI again, I went for HOI 3 and then HOI 3 Black ICE. And the Black ICE divisional setups is what I really loved in this game/mod.
Then you should avoid Darkest Hour. It still uses the "old" Template, where basically OOB-Structure is just a unit giving some bonuses (here: Mobile HQ). The rest is much better, though. For example a good and still fun mobilization-system and a solid AI (unless you do crazy stuff).
Hearts of Iron3's Representation of World War 2 When ?
Coming late to the party but any thoughts on HOI3 vs Darkest Hour’s depiction of WWII?
neither Justin nor I played Darkest Hour. I played a lot HOI 1 & 3, as well as BICE for 3.
One thing I'd love to hear you guys talk about is the mod for HOI4: Kaiserreich. It's a alt history mod where Germany won ww1.
I thought about it when you mentioned an earlier naval class. In Kaiserreich there is this class, called Pre-Weltkrieg (Pre-WW1). You cannot construct them, but they make up a majority d the starting fleets, and yeah, they're trash compared to the newer ships.
Never played it
I'd highly recommend it. Even though it's still in Alpha, it's better than the base game. They have a more complete version for hoi3 too, since you prefer that.
Hearts of iron 3 with black ice mod and tre mod is still much better!
I remember HoI3 Black ICE had an event where when playing as Germany and invading the USSR if you achieved certain objectives the USSR would recieve free divisions of very well equipped tanks (like 1944 varients). Players were freaking out when they could not kill these Red Guard super divisions even when completely encircled and attacked by over 8 divisions. Well, it would take over a month of combat battle with some 20 divisions to take down one of these time traveling USSR tank divisions.
Panzeroo initially brushed it aside as a 'git good and tech your AA penetration' until someone noticed that the penalty for failing to penetrate armour was not the intended 0.2 effectiveness but instead was 0.02 xD
On the ship tech levels, just adding one level of armor for battleships means that similiar tech level BS no longer pierce it. For battlecruisers, adding two gun improvements pierces battleships ,which means that it can pierce battleships etc. The improvements make a difference. Of course, the lvl 1 ships are too similiar. Currently, the capital ships are very OP compared to other ships. Subs just dont have the speed to engage them so they always run away, and battleships and carriers are too cheap, because you cant build that many destroyers with the same resorces.
On adding new technologies. Currently the balance on the number of technologies and research slots and technologies is pretty good. In HOI 3, the number of technologies was simply comical. If they added more technologies, they would need more research slots.
I was an HoI 2 player, and I guess I just got used to the quirks of the game. I played a little HoI 4, but just found it weird because I was so adjusted to 2.
I still play darkest hour hoi 2
I loved 1,2 and love 4. 3 is unplayable. If I were to play 3 I just would go back to 2. Great discussion. I concur with all the criticisms of hoi 4 and it is interesting that the 2 expansions after this discussion attempt to deal with the problems of air power and the navies. I still think they should have organized the air power into “divisions” or something of the like like hoi2.
Really shows you how much these guys truly know about the economic half of wars when they don't feel that oil is an important resource for production, never mind the fact that you need it for the lubrication of practically any major piece of machinery, among other things.
In comparison to coal, oil in production is rather limited and in game you need oil only for certain stuff like tanks. The lubrication side is clearly not modeled ingame.
So the use of synthetic rubber, rubber being one of the few resources that the US did not have in abundance and once the Japanese took the Rubber sources in SEA, the Allies as a whole had a shortage of as well, is not significant to you? One of the major uses of oil is in the production of synthetic rubber. That's without mentioning its use for creating toluene (used for TNT in bombs); construction of runways; lubrication in any kind of machine-operated device, whether that be a truck, tank, airplane, infantry firearm, etc.
The fact that even with 90% of the known natural rubber resources captured by the Japanese, the Allies did not have a shortage of rubber is solely because of the use of oil in the production of synthetic rubber. I would actually say that in terms to actual production of war material, oil is by far the more important resource. In terms of energy production, that is where coal is important.
Coal was mainly used for energy in the US, as there was no need for synthetic oil at the scale of providing fuel for an entire military. In Japan, the importance of coal would have been greater for production of synthetic oil had they the expertise to create synthetic refineries. And that's the kicker, the main reason Japan did not have synthetic oil refineries and why I started this whole rant. It isn't that they didn't have the material or the reason to build enough synthetic refineries to produce the synthetic oil they needed. They simply did not have the expertise.
Idea for Fuel:
Tanks, Planes, ship no longer need oil for production.
Oil is extracted resource gained per day. Refineries give you more per day and natural oil site do the same.
This can be stock piled.
When using planes, tanks, motorised and ships oil is used.
If they use more oil then you currently gain daily you would start losing oil from your stockpile,
Once out of oil they cannot be used.
More precisely for ships. They should be refuel every time at port and only be able to run sea mission until they run out of oil. They then need to be refuelled at port.
The play should be able to allocate which units gain oil first when there is a deficient much like how you can prioritise equipment.
Question for you or Justin if you see the comments, are there any mods for Hearts of Iron 4 that make the gameplay better in terms of realism like the were for Hearts of Iron 3 (Black 3 ice ect). I know there's black ice 4, but I find that goes about things the wrong way by adding way too many techs, but not focusing on some of the more broken or game mechanics
Keegan Speelman Millenium dawn ;). But keep an in tuch with bice4 I think they are planing to add money and stuff. They are still working on it.
Things like AI spamming hundreds of divisions and navies need a complete overhaul
Isn't HoI4 literally copying Kaiserreich now?
stability
apparently they copied the Japanese Focus tree from the Kaiserreich mod
Lol, what about the alternate timeline focus tree that they waste time on? They could have used the time and resources on actually fixing the historically accurate focus tree and add some alternative option that wasn't wildly crazy.
Great podcast! One thing you can discuss in a follow up video is the concept of abstration apllied to the game resources. For instance there's no need to make ammunition for rifles or artillery, instead a part of the equipment use is designed to represent the ammunition. The same is the case for fuel in tanks, you have to use oil and steel in tank production and supply them with more tanks over time to represent fuel and spare parts. An adition of fuel, ammunition and spare parts would make everything more complex, but they can try a work around and create a demand for materials like steel and oil as maintenance for divisions. ÄLZO: You might like to know that "Darkest Hour: A Hearts of Iron Game" war considered as a tool for training officers at
USArmyWarCollege: ruclips.net/video/38os-NBndZE/видео.html
Sorry, one more. your opinion on nuclear weapons. People say they are under powered in HOI4 becuse they do not destory every divsion in a provance. I argue that nuclear weapons are not as powerful as people think. That, especially tactically they quite limmited becuse miltary units are widely dispersied and entrenced realtive to the concentrated, vunrable populuses of cities like Horoshima.
Naval combat is a joke, air combat is another joke, countries shitting out gazillion divisions that lags the game beyond fun is another joke. Production of Axis shouldn't be comparable to the USA but 50% of the time I see Japan reking USN to the 30 vessels without losing any significant theirselves. UK and USA keep doing suicidal naval invasions with 0 chance of success.Templates AI makes can best described as abominations. Let alone strategic mastermind that is Germany and Soviet AI that just casually leaves the front for you to occupy vast amount of territory that is even more than a Neo-Nazi fantasy. Luxembourg can conquer the world. You can't stockpile resources. Many resources are not included in the game. Supply doesn't matter just keep smashing your head to the enemy line and eventually it will break. Germans have perfect supply while invading Egypt with 40 divisions 11/10 realism. I can keep going on and on. I enjoy this game and work PDX put into it and can have good time with it. But calling this game realistic is nowhere near reality. Thank god for mods.
I couldn't agree more. The game is laggy and the AI is retarded - either it make small scale pointless naval invasions here and there, and otherwise it stacks a 100 Divisons in the same province that can be nuked away.
And air warfare is only useful for supporting ground troops and having fighters to protect the bombers... any other use of planes are pointless. And bombing big ships is no problem for land based tactical bombers with the tinyiest of bombloads.
And sea warfare is basicly just about spamming out ships and lure out the royal navy to a place where the luftwaffe and kriegsmarine can work toghter to sink the british fleet. After that has been done superiority over the seas has been won.
i spam cas it rapes their divisions, only build battle ships, carriers and destroyers
The problem with cas in hoi2 is that they suck up so much fuel and transport capacity that groundunits are drawn into a standstill.
Battleships are not worth their production value imo. Carriers are way better especially in Atlantic and Pacific. Battleships can do some work if they have air support in Mediterranean but then carriers are way more cost effective
"I needed a tutorial for HOI4 aircraft", have you forgotten trying to learn the pure excruciating depth of Hoi3? That shit was fucking difficult
I think a problem you see with Naval in HOI games is that you cannot upgrade a ship you've built, there's no retrofitting or reclassifying or anything.
One major issue I have with HOI4 air forces is that they just dont feel......real. I can see my ground divisions move around, i can see my ships move, but with planes, you just assign a region to an air wing and then......blah. I never get the sense that I have an air region locked down, or that I am making good progress in gaining control.
Air combat in HOI4 is just so removed and abstract, I sometimes forget to even assign planes to areas when war starts. Plus i think that unless you have a ton of planes, they really don't help win wars that much, at least in my experience. I have never once felt a need for bombers/close air support, only reason i even make them is for, idk, role playing i guess, having B-17s as America is cool even if i never use them.
IIRC it was a bit micro-heavy, but in HOI2/Darkest Hour, having to give your air wings specific orders, areas and time frames kept you aware of the air war and invested.
In HOI4, months will go by and I'll think "huh, wonder what my planes are doing.............oh, they killed some planes, neat" and that's it. it is so far removed from the rest of the game that i could lose half my air force and i would barely notice.
In Darkest Hour, when my planes go out on a mission i JUST gave them and they get murdered i think "oh fuck i gotta get on top of that area". quick, tell those planes to rest, reallocate planes from over here, etc.
Fighters and interceptors actively engaged enemy bombers and told you about it, you could see the interceptions happening and know that you were protecting your air space. In HOI4 it is all in the background.
Hi, I am an ide developer, I heard your complaints about Air combat, I do enjoy a lot making combat algorithsm, I would totally like to create an algorithm for this!!
I kinda wish espionage and economics played much bigger roles in the game, as both were crucial components of the real WW2.
is Justin on youtube?