If you didn't mention the lack of a script, we wouldn't have even thought about it. Plus, you know so much about the subjects, your organic presentation is, for me anyway, easier to process because it's conversational.
A lot of good information here, calmly presented. I'm a submarine nerd, so there. A tip for recording audio, for recording training videos I use a mid-range gaming headset with a boom mic. Not too expensive, and it eliminates the room echo which helps people who have English as a second language. Looking forward to more videos!
Canada's recent Canadian Patrol Submarine Project (CPSP) is expected to have an AIP requirement with fisrt 'off-the-shelf" or MOTS submarine to be delivered around 2035.
Very good effort for a non-scripted effort. Also not rattling off ten to the dozen, (fast speech) is a very good and viewer-appreciated choice. You should consider monetising your videos if you want more exposure by RUclips. Just have one advert and RUclips might simply just match it. I think you qualify for monetisation with your viewers count. All the best and good luck .. again good video .. although needs more meat to fully satisfy Engineers!
This is the first public "AIP explainers" I've heard that accurately outlines the considerations around using AIP to charge batteries: It's an inefficient way to operate at low speed and therefore not often done, but may be necessary in a pinch if the batteries are depleted and the sub commander recognizes a need to go fast before they have an opportunity to snorkel again. So for example if a sub ran its batteries down while disengaging at high speed after an attack, but wanted to be able to reengage in the future (again at high speed) without first giving its position away by snorkeling, then it might make tactical sense to charge the batteries from AIP in the interim.
So, basically, use your batteries as less as possible to conserve battery power, so that if high speed maneuvers, chasing warships is reqd, batteries are there. Meanwhile you lurk around the region with AIP because AIP provides just enough power to loiter around. As soon as you require power, switch to batteries.
About 20 years ago we started using small unmanned submarines for sea floor mapping these submarines neede to go much deeper than military submarines are capable of going. We used aluminum fuel cells with KOH and HP. This fuel cell did require a pressure housing because it ran at ambient pressure and temperature. As soon as lithium battery technology advanced enough to have a reasonable power density and safety factor, we switched from fuel cells. A huge factor in the power density was the fact that these lithium batteries did not require a pressure housing either. They also functioned at the near freezing temperatures 4.5Km below the ocean.
Hi, HI Sutton, I just stumbled on your channel. Kudos sir! Thanks so much!! What sort of batteries are used on SS's made in the last 20 years ? i.e. NiCad, MH Lead Acid?
Fuel cells require hydrogen for FUEL. Those 'flasks" were not for storage of the exhaust of fuel cells. Fuel cells would be the quietest. Think of them as batteries that self-charge. There are no moving parts like in a Stirling engine.
Yeah that bit wasn't clear, sorry. The chemical reaction I was referring to was in the metal hydride accumulators, and when I said "offloaded", "Used by the fuel cell" would have been a much better choice of words. At that moment in the recording I think I was wondering whether to go into reformers or not. Will try to edit the video but options are very limited once it is uploaded.
.... and the price. Sweden will pay around 82M USD per A26 sub, incuding development. The development cost is split on only two subs. This is about the same price as one F35.
Typical Swedish hubris that is of course total Bullsh*t. Kochums hasn't produced a new sub for close to 30 years now and the A26 has been delayed repeatedly. Now supposedly coming in 2027-2028 and the price for 2 just went up by an ADDITIONAL $600M USD on top of the original supposedly fixed price of $900M USD - meaning the that each new sub will be approximately $750M. $82M my a$$. WTF do you Swedes eat for breakfast .. Saab propaganda?
I didn't know we countries were using Stirling Engines for AIP Subs. Stirling Engines have always fascinated me. I had no idea they produced enough work to be useful to run electrics in a Submarine.
Informative, researched. I’d like a rational look at the Australian submarine fiasco, going back to thr Oberon class, through the Collins class to the French and Spanish fiasco to the English and US fiasco. Looking at the engineering, politics and corruption allegations.
What if Japan used (or started using) the technology that Honda has mastered with their Proton Exchange Module (PEM) Honda Clarity Engines. Much much quieter and the output is literally water. The power output seems pretty solid and if paired with Lithium Ion Batteries could be a game changer for Japan. The Honda Pem uses oxygen (atmospheric) and Hydrogen compressed gas.
The US has developed a nuclear reactor for space called Kilo Power. They are 1 and 10 kilowatts. The reactor is about the size of roll of paper towel. They also use sterling engines to generate electricity from the reactor heat.My thoughts are use multiple of these reactors for the AIP power source. Given the size and simplicity of the reactor it might be a viable solution for SSK sized boats.
I wonder if any sub maker has experimented with using nuclear decay heat as a power source on an AIP sub. The soviets used it for everything from powering satellites to powering unmanned relay outposts, you likely wouldn't get enough juice out of decay heat to run a propeller but you could certainly gradually recharge batteries with it - and a couple of them would take up about as much space as a minifridge. I would be surprised if the Russians haven't tried it on their diesel fleet seeing as a small power source is still better than having no power source if you're submerged when your batteries run out.
This is a great video thank you. But there is a contradiction, in your introduction you said the development of AIP was for the purpose of more speed. Later you state the Captain may request the AIP be utilised to charge the batteries because there may be a need for a high speed dash. (running on batteries not AIP). Maybe your right and it was a perception that AIP would give more speed.
All modern submarines use electric drives, no direct mechanical drive between any combustion engine and the propellers. The AIP or naval diesel only produces electricity to charge the batteries. The speed burst capacity comes from that layout as an electric motor can develop far greater delta torque/volume and weight on a direct drive with a smooth acceleration. (not even transmission or gear box are strictly nessesary as the torque output of an electric motor is a direct function of the Amperage and current over the coils and thus the strength of it's alternating magnetic fields)
One of the AIP fuels was based on I think hydrogen... is this the same type that the russians used for emergency blowing of ballast for deep diving subs?
According to the German navy German Type 212A submarines have outperformed US nuclear submarines in terms of stealth during exercises where the German boat found the Nuclear submarine while remaining undetected.
Very informative and thorough. I also assumed AIP was run (non snorkelling) to charge the batteries while it ran. Also did not think about the air replenishment. Am I to assume then that these systems dont really run without snorkelling for 2-3 weeks at a time? Seems misleading as to what they are "advertised" to do!
They can run for 2-3 weeks without snorkeling, what they cant do is run for 2-3 weeks, snorkel for a few hours and run again for 2-3 weeks, ect. Like a Typ VII in WW2 could theroretical stay submerged for 3 days, but after that all the oxygen and CO2 scrubers are used up and then they would have to ventilate the boat on the surface after 6-8 hours
Perhaps LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate) would be less of a fire risk for a submarine. At around 90% of the power/weight density compared to Lithium Ion, this would not make a big difference for a submarine... still many times more power dense than any Lead Acid apparatus.
Can someone tell me what the heat source is for the sterling engine ? Are they using the oxygen to reduce something and use that as the heat source.... Also find it kinda funny to hear how dangeriois li-ion batteries are, when they currently have tanks of lox on the boats.
@@HISuttonCovertShores ah ok.. So instead of using the gas expansion, as in a normal ice engine, they are using the heat and a sterling engine for greater efficency? That makes much more sense. I was trying to convince myself at one point that they were maybe somehow using the heat generated by the crew and equipment and the sea water.... Still leaves me wondering that surely the efficiency will be affected by the sea water temp? Though I suppose of you are deep enough that won't matter as much. Though it may help to clarify why some countries use fuel cells and others sterling engines.. I would expect it has something to do with the water temp where they want to operate.... But what do I know.
@@deth3021 It isn't for greater efficiency, it is because they are quiet. Valves make noise if you open them between two areas at different pressures, and completely eliminating pressure difference from valved piston engines is hard. Even the interactions between turbine and stator blades inherently create noise*. Stirling engines don't need valves and there don't need to be high shear forces in the working fluid. Combined with using a steady flame for a heat source, they can be almost entirely silent. *This combined with the fact that nuclear reactors don't just turn off is why nuclear subs cannot eliminate pump noise.
@HI Sutton How much time is required to make the switch? From AIP to Batteries? Assuming a situation, where the submarine is just loitering around a region/choke point using AIP. Suddenly it realizes the need to chase a warship and engage in high speed maneuvers. So how much time is required by the submarine crew/commander to make the system switch from AIP to Batteries to make high speed dash?
I know our Navy loves nuclear subs, and rightly so. However, the fact that an AIP sub costs 15% to 20% of the cost of a nuclear, I think that AIP subs might be useful in the US Navy. Wouldn't they be particularly useful in the archipelagos of Indonesia and Philippines? Would they be useful against the Chinese Navy?? Plus, if we had our own AIP subs, then we would become very familiar with them, maybe making the rest of our Navy better able to deal with them. I would like to hear a discussion about what the US Navy thinks of them, why we don't have any, and if AIP is under consideration.
No DE boat has the range to operate from Hawaii all the way south to Indonesia without having to refuel somewhere. A Kilo class boat only has a range of 6,000 nm. That is barely one way from Petropavlosk to Hawaii with empty fuel tanks upon arrival. Same for China's DE boats. US WWII subs could manage close to 10,000 nm on diesel but at very low speeds. Based on experience with US nuclear boats and Dutch DE boats, a trip across the Atlantic for a nuclear sub takes five days but for a DE boat takes 9 days. There are good reasons Australia abandoned plans to build new DE boats and go with nuclear subs.
@@philsalvatore3902 True. Range is an issue. But --- I still think DE subs can be useful for Australia defense. They would useful for sub patrols around Australia, the Solomon Islands, and Papua, and Indonesian waters. For Australia, nuclear subs are needed to effect the SCS and Philippine Seas. For US, DE subs make no sense since we operate almost 100% far away.
@@craigkdillon Australia wants to be able to fight near Taiwan, Japan and Korea. They want to be able to shoot Tomahawks. Tomahawks require a big submarine. If the fight is in the seas neighboring Australia then a lot of things went wrong.
Emergency services are finding that lithium batteries and cars are not a very good mix - if cells are damaged and oxygen gets in , it is very difficult to put out the resulting fires. I wouldn't like that to happen ina dived submarine
Amazing source of information. As I learned about this tech throughout the video I was even more baffled that the Swedes gave away their tech just like that 😂 they did so well with this sub.
Raegan Battle group: Haha, I'm One of the most powerfull (and expensive) military asset of my time. AIP sub: They don't know I'm here. Would It be a shame if I sunk them
It is wonderful to have a factual source of information from a recognized authority on the subject of underwater technology. Thank you. Please keep up the great work.
@@kelinrkp Wikipedia describes several types of AIP but is fairly bare of references, which makes sense as I'd expect everybody to be keeping their own special blend a secret.
@@kelinrkp Clue is in the name. It is propulsion and power without surface air and also not being nuclear powered as that would render it obsolete. And given that the batteries dont last as long as one would like without recharging, that would need surface air.
The German Type212A traversed from Germany to Spain submerged for 14 days straight without surfacing or snorkeling. Given what you said about the need to ventilate the boat, I wonder whether that was just clever wording (as in we didn't snorkel to recharge the batteries) or whether they have a work around.
They could burn oxygen candles to extend their duration, though it's not exactly a permanent solution. There are only 27 people on board a Type 212 sub too, so there aren't that many to use up the oxygen.
Not mentioned are radioisotope power systems. The General Purpose Heat Source module, or GPHS, is the essential building block for the radioisotope generators used by NASA. These modules contain and protect the plutonium-238 (or Pu-238) fuel that gives off heat for producing electricity. The fuel is fabricated into ceramic pellets of plutonium-238 oxide (238PuO2) and encapsulated in a protective casing of iridium, forming a fueled clad. Fueled clads are encased within nested layers of carbon-based material and placed within an aeroshell housing to comprise the complete GPHS module. There are proposals out there to use these as an AIP power source. The GPHS modules would have to be carried outside of the pressure hull where seawater becomes their radiation shield just as seawater was used to shield the reactor on the NR-1 nuclear mini-sub.
Love this content! Keep it coming. Great to have good content like this from such a knowledgeable source. Seen lots of reports on your stuff from Sub Brief. I never knew about the hydrogen peroxide step and the energy density of lithium batteries
Ask the american navy how deadly Conventional submarines are. they still have nightmares what swedish and dutch submarines did in the past 30 years against nuclear subs and carrier fleets.
The original "AIP" submarine was the Ictineo II built by a Spanish engineer around the time of the American Civil War. The Ictineo's power system was based on s chemical process that produced oxygen as a by-product providing air for the crew as well. The vessel was also the first double hull dsesign, amazingly built of wood, and capable of powered operation to a depth 90 feet.
@@Thadude701 When I first read about the Ictineo II I came to suspect that Jules Verne might have modeled his _Nautilus_ on it. The Ictineo II actually had two propulsion systems - one, air breathing for the surface and a chemical, oxygen emitting power system for submerged activity.
Until the advent of Nuclear Power and AIP - true submarines didn’t exist. They were submersibles - they were required to spend a considerable amount of time on the surface charging batteries.
Thank you for the video. I loved the narco sub vid as well. Any strange or lesser know sub or sub type would be my suggestion but I think I'll watch anything you make.
I took part in the construction of the first two U212 for the Italian Navy (classe Todaro).. according to what peeps told me those subs are virtually impossible to find when running on fuel cell, they did some testing and they found out they are quieter than nuclear powered subs.. sure, they are smaller and the amount of machinery is reduced, with amount in total noise reduction.. but they really are confident to be able to do their business and sneak away uncaught... thanks for the amazing video
It not really hard to be quieter than a nuclear sub, a nuclear sub can switch from steam turbine to e-motor, but it cant just turn of the reactor. A U-boat like the Typ 212 can shut off everything
Battery power has no reactor or pump noise for the cooling circuit. A modern diesel boat is quieter, mechanically speaking, than a nuclear powered vessel…but the type of hull and coating may be noisier for a diesel boat.
Greece actually build 3 AIP subs (Type 214) with german AIP like others and troubleshoot and modify/repaired the first one of the class build in kiel. (it had ballast balance problems because of an inadequate pumps) also retrofitted a 209 with the german AIP. (Skaramanga Shipyard at athens) As far as i currently know the shipyard at skaramanga, athens still has the capability for building/service/repair/modify them (209s,212s,214s) but not the management, clients or funds.
Mr. Sutton, if you sell your submarine cutaway drawings in high resolution posters or canvas, I'd like to buy them, possibly all of them! Send me a message if that is indeed an option. I have been a huge fans of your analysis study and now even your art drawn on MS paint!
Thanks for making this. A suggestion: Please move the mic closer to your mouth, as when it is not close, the room acoustics quickly muddy your voice, and it becomes necessary for some of us to turn on subtitles. Thanks again.
Do you have an awesome amount of knowledge on the subject concerning submarines and all that you do on here. Really is awesome to learn about , I generally am not as informed of the navy aspects . Thank you for all bro , I am on i think the 4th or 5th of yours in a row now ! cheers from USA Edit; if you don’t mind answering, may I ask how old you are currently? I just ask only because I am 30 and I feel like you sound between my age and slightly younger perhaps ? Lol I just like to know if others my age are doing this and learning about what they didn’t know prior to clicking your thumbnail 😎
Very informative, thank you for this video! ... Oh and, um... 12:31 - these subs go much longer between "snorting"? Boy I hope that's the technical term.
can you discuss the differences between Stirling engines and fuel cells as far as power, cost, efficiency, et.. How much power is generated by each. Have there been advances in the AIP systems such that they are becoming smaller & more efficient and more powerful to the extent where they can recharge the batteries. Lithium ion batteries can be recharged more quickly. Does that mean they could possibly be recharged by the AIP system? How long can Japan's lithium ion batteries go without being recharged?
Stirling has an disadvantage as it is using combustion and thous producing CO2. The Fuel Cell has less signatures, as it is only producing water and heat up to 80 degree Celsius. Dimentiions of the fuel cell system is also more flexible. A fuelcell has either 34 kW or 12o kW each, and they are smaller than the stirling engine. Advantage of the stirling, they use methanol and oxigen. The fuellcell needs difficult to store H2 and Oxigen. Eficency is quite equal as both have about 60%.
@@RealOlawo A Stirling engine is not a combustion motor, it only needs heat to run, were the heat comes from or how its created doesnt matter. The Stirling produces only CO2 if you choose a heat source that creates CO2, so instead burning of diesel or methanol and oxygen you can also burn hydrogen and oxygen or use the 80°C from a fuel cell.
@@wolf310ii That is theory, in reality the Gothenborg Class is heating the Sterling with Diese. Waste heat from fuel Cell would be nice but temperature level is to low for good efficency.
@@RealOlawo The Göteborg class has 3x diesel motors and is a korvette. The Gotland class uses diesel for the Stirling because it has also diesel motors. As for the temperatur level, thats only a matter of size of the cylinders, stirling motors can run on way lower temperatur levels than 80°C.
The Swedish boats are designed for the shallow waters and greater salinity of the Baltic Sea. They are not deep diving boats and not fast either. Their acoustic properties are tailored to the salinity and density of the Baltic. That may not be ideal in the Pacific or even the North Atlantic.
Great work! I’d be keen on even more depth, eg comparing the pros and cons of the different systems. If MESMA isn’t really going anywhere, why not? Also would love to hear more about lithium batteries. Is the density really high enough to dispense with AIP? I thought it was only very substantially higher at higher discharge/recharge rates, where the internal resistance of lead-acid batteries leads to very poor efficiency.
I really like the ‘unscripted’ nature of your presentations because you retain a fact-filled, cogent, and coherent narrative that does not wander aimlessly and yet retains a conversational tone, very listenable and easily ‘digested’. Please do not slick the channel up with scripting. Its not needed. Your graphics and cutaways are great, and are the only ‘icing’ this rewarding cake of a channel needed to be a satisfying treat at every offering. Bravo sir, well done! I have learned a lot here and it has kindled a renewed interest in a subject i thought i had learned enough about. I am happy to to say that i was mistaken! 👍🏼
It is exactly the other way round. The AIP system is not used to power the motor directly. In case of the fuel cell system you need to power the batteri. Specialy because the output of the fuell cell can not be changed. You need to run it on the same output to have full efficency. So you couldn't adjust the power output to the demand of the motor. That is why you use the battteri as a buffer.
How do you see a future AIP submarine armed with the new hipersonic missile ? - like the ones that Russia developed in recent years - in the way Polaris missile were used ? France for example is curently testing the Exocet missile on her subs. My opinion is we are whitnessing the dusk of the carrier în the same manner the WW2 was the end of battleship. And that for USA could mean the end of supremacy on the sea.
I’ve watched one video of yours and have subscribed, this was a very good presentation. Speaking as someone who does a fair amount of public speaking, I like your “semi-scripted” approach. Granted it’s how I usually do it, so perhaps I am not fully impartial! Whenever speaking on a topic that you have a solid command of (like you do here) making an outline to organize, and if necessary remind you of your key points, helps keep a relaxed and conversational tone. For instance, I was very engaged the entire and the video felt much shorter than 23 minutes. Of course, everyone is different, and if you would feel more comfortable scripting it all out, I’d say go for it. Cheers!
A submarine stealthy enough to even get within torpedo (especially ones armed with a nuclear warhead) firing range of a carrier is a menace sufficient to turn any Admiral's hair white (or whiter).
A low powered glider mode has always interested me. By moving a cylinder in the bow forward and back requires little power. By taking in water then push it out allows the sub to accend and dive . The sub would be silent as it rises and dives . By doing this the sub would move forward through the water. Rise over run . I made a glider sub model in school that would stop and charge it's batteries by solar energy. It may not be practical in a military environment but one could travel the world in a diy personal sub. I have always wondered why no one has ever done this? Just a thought.
Very much enjoyed the video. Might I suggest some sound dampening on the walls / hard surfaces for that wee echo, and those page turns. Everything else was perfect! Great presentation.
If you didn't mention the lack of a script, we wouldn't have even thought about it. Plus, you know so much about the subjects, your organic presentation is, for me anyway, easier to process because it's conversational.
speak for your self
It's refreshing to have a real person do it & not cold, & often things are said wrong AI .. Thumbs up from me..
A lot of good information here, calmly presented. I'm a submarine nerd, so there.
A tip for recording audio, for recording training videos I use a mid-range gaming headset with a boom mic. Not too expensive, and it eliminates the room echo which helps people who have English as a second language.
Looking forward to more videos!
Thank you for explaining AIP pros and cons in an understandable manner!
Your cut-aways are beautiful by the way. Thank you for adding them in your talks.
Ms Paint?! You have to be the best Ms Paint artist I've seen.
Very well narrated
Canada's recent Canadian Patrol Submarine Project (CPSP) is expected to have an AIP requirement with fisrt 'off-the-shelf" or MOTS submarine to be delivered around 2035.
Very good effort for a non-scripted effort. Also not rattling off ten to the dozen, (fast speech) is a very good and viewer-appreciated choice. You should consider monetising your videos if you want more exposure by RUclips. Just have one advert and RUclips might simply just match it. I think you qualify for monetisation with your viewers count. All the best and good luck .. again good video .. although needs more meat to fully satisfy Engineers!
This is the first public "AIP explainers" I've heard that accurately outlines the considerations around using AIP to charge batteries: It's an inefficient way to operate at low speed and therefore not often done, but may be necessary in a pinch if the batteries are depleted and the sub commander recognizes a need to go fast before they have an opportunity to snorkel again.
So for example if a sub ran its batteries down while disengaging at high speed after an attack, but wanted to be able to reengage in the future (again at high speed) without first giving its position away by snorkeling, then it might make tactical sense to charge the batteries from AIP in the interim.
So, basically, use your batteries as less as possible to conserve battery power, so that if high speed maneuvers, chasing warships is reqd, batteries are there. Meanwhile you lurk around the region with AIP because AIP provides just enough power to loiter around. As soon as you require power, switch to batteries.
About 20 years ago we started using small unmanned submarines for sea floor mapping these submarines neede to go much deeper than military submarines are capable of going. We used aluminum fuel cells with KOH and HP. This fuel cell did require a pressure housing because it ran at ambient pressure and temperature. As soon as lithium battery technology advanced enough to have a reasonable power density and safety factor, we switched from fuel cells. A huge factor in the power density was the fact that these lithium batteries did not require a pressure housing either. They also functioned at the near freezing temperatures 4.5Km below the ocean.
Sub Brief brought me here. Thank you for the fascinating content.
Very interesting and informative, as expected. Actually learned lots of new things, appreciate it!
More videos please.... likely this chabbel is old but not frequent upload
Great video. Appreciated.
Hi, HI Sutton, I just stumbled on your channel. Kudos sir! Thanks so much!!
What sort of batteries are used on SS's made in the last 20 years ? i.e. NiCad, MH Lead Acid?
basically lead acid I think, with lithium based tech being the new thing
Fuel cells require hydrogen for FUEL. Those 'flasks" were not for storage of the exhaust of fuel cells. Fuel cells would be the quietest. Think of them as batteries that self-charge. There are no moving parts like in a Stirling engine.
Yeah that bit wasn't clear, sorry. The chemical reaction I was referring to was in the metal hydride accumulators, and when I said "offloaded", "Used by the fuel cell" would have been a much better choice of words. At that moment in the recording I think I was wondering whether to go into reformers or not. Will try to edit the video but options are very limited once it is uploaded.
Very nice information. Then you for sharing your knowledge.
.... and the price. Sweden will pay around 82M USD per A26 sub, incuding development. The development cost is split on only two subs.
This is about the same price as one F35.
Typical Swedish hubris that is of course total Bullsh*t. Kochums hasn't produced a new sub for close to 30 years now and the A26 has been delayed repeatedly. Now supposedly coming in 2027-2028 and the price for 2 just went up by an ADDITIONAL $600M USD on top of the original supposedly fixed price of $900M USD - meaning the that each new sub will be approximately $750M. $82M my a$$. WTF do you Swedes eat for breakfast .. Saab propaganda?
Peak self-deprecating British military gallows humor: Nicknames their AIP sub "Exploder"; only theirs doesn't explode.
Sub Brief sent me, good show.
I didn't know we countries were using Stirling Engines for AIP Subs. Stirling Engines have always fascinated me. I had no idea they produced enough work to be useful to run electrics in a Submarine.
Informative, researched. I’d like a rational look at the Australian submarine fiasco, going back to thr Oberon class, through the Collins class to the French and Spanish fiasco to the English and US fiasco. Looking at the engineering, politics and corruption allegations.
What if Japan used (or started using) the technology that Honda has mastered with their Proton Exchange Module (PEM) Honda Clarity Engines. Much much quieter and the output is literally water. The power output seems pretty solid and if paired with Lithium Ion Batteries could be a game changer for Japan. The Honda Pem uses oxygen (atmospheric) and Hydrogen compressed gas.
The US has developed a nuclear reactor for space called Kilo Power. They are 1 and 10 kilowatts. The reactor is about the size of roll of paper towel. They also use sterling engines to generate electricity from the reactor heat.My thoughts are use multiple of these reactors for the AIP power source. Given the size and simplicity of the reactor it might be a viable solution for SSK sized boats.
Just found you!!! Liked and subbed immediately!!! Keep the content coming
I wonder if any sub maker has experimented with using nuclear decay heat as a power source on an AIP sub. The soviets used it for everything from powering satellites to powering unmanned relay outposts, you likely wouldn't get enough juice out of decay heat to run a propeller but you could certainly gradually recharge batteries with it - and a couple of them would take up about as much space as a minifridge. I would be surprised if the Russians haven't tried it on their diesel fleet seeing as a small power source is still better than having no power source if you're submerged when your batteries run out.
This is a great video thank you. But there is a contradiction, in your introduction you said the development of AIP was for the purpose of more speed. Later you state the Captain may request the AIP be utilised to charge the batteries because there may be a need for a high speed dash. (running on batteries not AIP). Maybe your right and it was a perception that AIP would give more speed.
All modern submarines use electric drives, no direct mechanical drive between any combustion engine and the propellers. The AIP or naval diesel only produces electricity to charge the batteries.
The speed burst capacity comes from that layout as an electric motor can develop far greater delta torque/volume and weight on a direct drive with a smooth acceleration. (not even transmission or gear box are strictly nessesary as the torque output of an electric motor is a direct function of the Amperage and current over the coils and thus the strength of it's alternating magnetic fields)
take a Kalvari class Sub.. cut its length by, half.. keeping only War necessary.. now u've got very capable Stealth of size, with talons to strike.
One of the AIP fuels was based on I think hydrogen... is this the same type that the russians used for emergency blowing of ballast for deep diving subs?
Man, that is too good for MS paint :D
According to the German navy German Type 212A submarines have outperformed US nuclear submarines in terms of stealth during exercises where the German boat found the Nuclear submarine while remaining undetected.
Source please.
@@jeravincer Some article I read years ago, unfortunately I can't find it anymore or I'd have linked it. I would take it with a grain of salt though.
Very informative and thorough. I also assumed AIP was run (non snorkelling) to charge the batteries while it ran. Also did not think about the air replenishment. Am I to assume then that these systems dont really run without snorkelling for 2-3 weeks at a time? Seems misleading as to what they are "advertised" to do!
They can run for 2-3 weeks without snorkeling, what they cant do is run for 2-3 weeks, snorkel for a few hours and run again for 2-3 weeks, ect.
Like a Typ VII in WW2 could theroretical stay submerged for 3 days, but after that all the oxygen and CO2 scrubers are used up and then they would have to ventilate the boat on the surface after 6-8 hours
I enjoy your videos, however, needs more volume.
Perhaps LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate) would be less of a fire risk for a submarine. At around 90% of the power/weight density compared to Lithium Ion, this would not make a big difference for a submarine... still many times more power dense than any Lead Acid apparatus.
Can someone tell me what the heat source is for the sterling engine ?
Are they using the oxygen to reduce something and use that as the heat source....
Also find it kinda funny to hear how dangeriois li-ion batteries are, when they currently have tanks of lox on the boats.
They fuel it with diesel
@@HISuttonCovertShores ah ok..
So instead of using the gas expansion, as in a normal ice engine, they are using the heat and a sterling engine for greater efficency?
That makes much more sense.
I was trying to convince myself at one point that they were maybe somehow using the heat generated by the crew and equipment and the sea water....
Still leaves me wondering that surely the efficiency will be affected by the sea water temp? Though I suppose of you are deep enough that won't matter as much.
Though it may help to clarify why some countries use fuel cells and others sterling engines.. I would expect it has something to do with the water temp where they want to operate....
But what do I know.
@@deth3021 It isn't for greater efficiency, it is because they are quiet. Valves make noise if you open them between two areas at different pressures, and completely eliminating pressure difference from valved piston engines is hard. Even the interactions between turbine and stator blades inherently create noise*. Stirling engines don't need valves and there don't need to be high shear forces in the working fluid. Combined with using a steady flame for a heat source, they can be almost entirely silent.
*This combined with the fact that nuclear reactors don't just turn off is why nuclear subs cannot eliminate pump noise.
@@agsystems8220 thanks.
in theory though you could use a liquid metal or molten salt cooled reactor as the heat source to a sterling engine as well...
@HI Sutton
How much time is required to make the switch? From AIP to Batteries?
Assuming a situation, where the submarine is just loitering around a region/choke point using AIP. Suddenly it realizes the need to chase a warship and engage in high speed maneuvers. So how much time is required by the submarine crew/commander to make the system switch from AIP to Batteries to make high speed dash?
I know our Navy loves nuclear subs, and rightly so.
However, the fact that an AIP sub costs 15% to 20% of the cost of a nuclear, I think that AIP subs might be useful in the US Navy.
Wouldn't they be particularly useful in the archipelagos of Indonesia and Philippines?
Would they be useful against the Chinese Navy??
Plus, if we had our own AIP subs, then we would become very familiar with them, maybe making the rest of our Navy better able to deal with them.
I would like to hear a discussion about what the US Navy thinks of them, why we don't have any, and if AIP is under consideration.
No DE boat has the range to operate from Hawaii all the way south to Indonesia without having to refuel somewhere. A Kilo class boat only has a range of 6,000 nm. That is barely one way from Petropavlosk to Hawaii with empty fuel tanks upon arrival. Same for China's DE boats. US WWII subs could manage close to 10,000 nm on diesel but at very low speeds. Based on experience with US nuclear boats and Dutch DE boats, a trip across the Atlantic for a nuclear sub takes five days but for a DE boat takes 9 days. There are good reasons Australia abandoned plans to build new DE boats and go with nuclear subs.
@@philsalvatore3902 True. Range is an issue.
But --- I still think DE subs can be useful for Australia defense. They would useful for sub patrols around Australia, the Solomon Islands, and Papua, and Indonesian waters.
For Australia, nuclear subs are needed to effect the SCS and Philippine Seas.
For US, DE subs make no sense since we operate almost 100% far away.
@@craigkdillon Australia wants to be able to fight near Taiwan, Japan and Korea. They want to be able to shoot Tomahawks. Tomahawks require a big submarine. If the fight is in the seas neighboring Australia then a lot of things went wrong.
@@philsalvatore3902 That is why they are getting nuclear subs.
fuel cell is clearly the best option.
Emergency services are finding that lithium batteries and cars are not a very good mix - if cells are damaged and oxygen gets in , it is very difficult to put out the resulting fires. I wouldn't like that to happen ina dived submarine
Holy shit you make all the illustrations in PAINT?! How!?
Amazing source of information.
As I learned about this tech throughout the video I was even more baffled that the Swedes gave away their tech just like that 😂 they did so well with this sub.
Raegan Battle group: Haha, I'm One of the most powerfull (and expensive) military asset of my time.
AIP sub: They don't know I'm here. Would It be a shame if I sunk them
Quantum computers on submarines?? At 10:46 you mention that....What? What for?
there is research regarding the usage of quantum computing to improve detection via SQUID (magnetic fields) and gravity fields. Sounds super sci-fi.
It is wonderful to have a factual source of information from a recognized authority on the subject of underwater technology. Thank you. Please keep up the great work.
Would be even better if we were told what AIP is, not what the letters stand for, but what it is.
@@kelinrkp Wikipedia describes several types of AIP but is fairly bare of references, which makes sense as I'd expect everybody to be keeping their own special blend a secret.
I feel exactly the same way. A true educator.
@@kelinrkp Clue is in the name. It is propulsion and power without surface air and also not being nuclear powered as that would render it obsolete. And given that the batteries dont last as long as one would like without recharging, that would need surface air.
@@kelinrkp Did you just not watch the video. 6:28
Your 'free' style of speaking is more akin to a uni lecture and a very easy on the ears.
The German Type212A traversed from Germany to Spain submerged for 14 days straight without surfacing or snorkeling. Given what you said about the need to ventilate the boat, I wonder whether that was just clever wording (as in we didn't snorkel to recharge the batteries) or whether they have a work around.
I can see why the Walter turbine powered submarines appeared to be such a radical leap forward for submarines.
They could burn oxygen candles to extend their duration, though it's not exactly a permanent solution. There are only 27 people on board a Type 212 sub too, so there aren't that many to use up the oxygen.
212As carry LOX.
LOX and CO2 scrubbers.
the 212 doesn't need to ventilate. It has CO2 cleaner and the refresh the air with oxigen from the fuel cell system.
Not mentioned are radioisotope power systems. The General Purpose Heat Source module, or GPHS, is the essential building block for the radioisotope generators used by NASA. These modules contain and protect the plutonium-238 (or Pu-238) fuel that gives off heat for producing electricity. The fuel is fabricated into ceramic pellets of plutonium-238 oxide (238PuO2) and encapsulated in a protective casing of iridium, forming a fueled clad. Fueled clads are encased within nested layers of carbon-based material and placed within an aeroshell housing to comprise the complete GPHS module. There are proposals out there to use these as an AIP power source. The GPHS modules would have to be carried outside of the pressure hull where seawater becomes their radiation shield just as seawater was used to shield the reactor on the NR-1 nuclear mini-sub.
HMS Exploder lol
When I was on the USS PUFFER SSN 652, we sank the USS KITTY HAWK CV 63 three times during exercises in 1975.
There are submarines…and there are targets.
Love this content! Keep it coming. Great to have good content like this from such a knowledgeable source. Seen lots of reports on your stuff from Sub Brief. I never knew about the hydrogen peroxide step and the energy density of lithium batteries
Ask the american navy how deadly Conventional submarines are. they still have nightmares what swedish and dutch submarines did in the past 30 years against nuclear subs and carrier fleets.
The original "AIP" submarine was the Ictineo II built by a Spanish engineer around the time of the American Civil War. The Ictineo's power system was based on s chemical process that produced oxygen as a by-product providing air for the crew as well. The vessel was also the first double hull dsesign, amazingly built of wood, and capable of powered operation to a depth 90 feet.
I do not remember that sub in submarine school,but there it is.
@@Thadude701 When I first read about the Ictineo II I came to suspect that Jules Verne might have modeled his _Nautilus_ on it. The Ictineo II actually had two propulsion systems - one, air breathing for the surface and a chemical, oxygen emitting power system for submerged activity.
Wow
I think there is a copy of it on shore near the cruise ship harbour in Barcalonia. Can't believe it's not more important!
I liked the expertise, the calm lack of hype, especially there was no anxious sound track music
Knew about AIP but never really understood it till I saw this video so thanks Mr Sutton looking forward to more both on ur website and this channel
It's Dr Sutton
"air" trips some people up -- atmospheric independent power is a better fit.
This is Good Stuff . The Jive Turkey brought me here . Hope you don't mind.
That jolly gentleman from The Sub Brief sent me, great work Mr Sutton.
Loving the content! Keep em' coming.
Consider investing in a more quality microphone as well. Will make it easier to listen. Thanks
was thinking the same
Until the advent of Nuclear Power and AIP - true submarines didn’t exist. They were submersibles - they were required to spend a considerable amount of time on the surface charging batteries.
My father, Jesse J. Bryant, chief electrician, submarines Atlantic 1946-67(U.S.S. Skipjack etc.) would have liked this channel.
I want to echo Joel’s comments. Thought I knew a fair amount and realize how little I knew. That was very informative.
Very good. Very organized. Concise. Comprehensive. Thank you.
Thank you for the video. I loved the narco sub vid as well. Any strange or lesser know sub or sub type would be my suggestion but I think I'll watch anything you make.
I took part in the construction of the first two U212 for the Italian Navy (classe Todaro).. according to what peeps told me those subs are virtually impossible to find when running on fuel cell, they did some testing and they found out they are quieter than nuclear powered subs.. sure, they are smaller and the amount of machinery is reduced, with amount in total noise reduction.. but they really are confident to be able to do their business and sneak away uncaught... thanks for the amazing video
It not really hard to be quieter than a nuclear sub, a nuclear sub can switch from steam turbine to e-motor, but it cant just turn of the reactor.
A U-boat like the Typ 212 can shut off everything
Battery power has no reactor or pump noise for the cooling circuit.
A modern diesel boat is quieter, mechanically speaking, than a nuclear powered vessel…but the type of hull and coating may be noisier for a diesel boat.
@@wolf310iiI think you mean turn *off not turn of.
AIP subs are the kings of the shallows. You don’t want to mess with them in them in the littorals.
Greece actually build 3 AIP subs (Type 214) with german AIP like others and troubleshoot and modify/repaired the first one of the class build in kiel. (it had ballast balance problems because of an inadequate pumps) also retrofitted a 209 with the german AIP. (Skaramanga Shipyard at athens)
As far as i currently know the shipyard at skaramanga, athens still has the capability for building/service/repair/modify them (209s,212s,214s) but not the management, clients or funds.
Nice video, I love your website as well!
he's always interesting
Mr. Sutton, if you sell your submarine cutaway drawings in high resolution posters or canvas, I'd like to buy them, possibly all of them! Send me a message if that is indeed an option. I have been a huge fans of your analysis study and now even your art drawn on MS paint!
Thanks for making this. A suggestion: Please move the mic closer to your mouth, as when it is not close, the room acoustics quickly muddy your voice, and it becomes necessary for some of us to turn on subtitles. Thanks again.
Do you have an awesome amount of knowledge on the subject concerning submarines and all that you do on here. Really is awesome to learn about , I generally am not as informed of the navy aspects . Thank you for all bro , I am on i think the 4th or 5th of yours in a row now ! cheers from USA
Edit; if you don’t mind answering, may I ask how old you are currently? I just ask only because I am 30 and I feel like you sound between my age and slightly younger perhaps ? Lol I just like to know if others my age are doing this and learning about what they didn’t know prior to clicking your thumbnail 😎
Very informative, thank you for this video!
...
Oh and, um... 12:31 - these subs go much longer between "snorting"? Boy I hope that's the technical term.
Doesn´t Russia dabble in AIP as well? Eedit: Watch the whole video before commenting next time;)
Am I the only one that was impressed as shit that those cutaways are done in MS paint?
That's crazy.
Great video! Informative and well done.
can you discuss the differences between Stirling engines and fuel cells as far as power, cost, efficiency, et.. How much power is generated by each. Have there been advances in the AIP systems such that they are becoming smaller & more efficient and more powerful to the extent where they can recharge the batteries. Lithium ion batteries can be recharged more quickly. Does that mean they could possibly be recharged by the AIP system? How long can Japan's lithium ion batteries go without being recharged?
this is what i have read...without any periodic charging...6 months the battery is ...like charles dicken describe it:
DEAD AS A DOOR NAIL
Stirling has an disadvantage as it is using combustion and thous producing CO2. The Fuel Cell has less signatures, as it is only producing water and heat up to 80 degree Celsius. Dimentiions of the fuel cell system is also more flexible. A fuelcell has either 34 kW or 12o kW each, and they are smaller than the stirling engine. Advantage of the stirling, they use methanol and oxigen. The fuellcell needs difficult to store H2 and Oxigen. Eficency is quite equal as both have about 60%.
@@RealOlawo A Stirling engine is not a combustion motor, it only needs heat to run, were the heat comes from or how its created doesnt matter.
The Stirling produces only CO2 if you choose a heat source that creates CO2, so instead burning of diesel or methanol and oxygen you can also burn hydrogen and oxygen or use the 80°C from a fuel cell.
@@wolf310ii That is theory, in reality the Gothenborg Class is heating the Sterling with Diese. Waste heat from fuel Cell would be nice but temperature level is to low for good efficency.
@@RealOlawo The Göteborg class has 3x diesel motors and is a korvette.
The Gotland class uses diesel for the Stirling because it has also diesel motors.
As for the temperatur level, thats only a matter of size of the cylinders, stirling motors can run on way lower temperatur levels than 80°C.
Whale class is quite fetching in profile
Was the WHALE class based on a Type XXI hull or was it the forerunner of the QUEBEC Class?
It's based on plans for the German type XXVI that was never built. Looks pretty much the same.
@@KP3droflxp Ah excellent thank you
Sounds like the Swedish submarines would be worth an extensive video, also interesting the various incidents with Russians ?
The Swedish boats are designed for the shallow waters and greater salinity of the Baltic Sea. They are not deep diving boats and not fast either. Their acoustic properties are tailored to the salinity and density of the Baltic. That may not be ideal in the Pacific or even the North Atlantic.
Australia picked Diesel the Nuke maybe will Get OARS or a Sail
Great work! I’d be keen on even more depth, eg comparing the pros and cons of the different systems. If MESMA isn’t really going anywhere, why not? Also would love to hear more about lithium batteries. Is the density really high enough to dispense with AIP? I thought it was only very substantially higher at higher discharge/recharge rates, where the internal resistance of lead-acid batteries leads to very poor efficiency.
I really like the ‘unscripted’ nature of your presentations because you retain a fact-filled, cogent, and coherent narrative that does not wander aimlessly and yet retains a conversational tone, very listenable and easily ‘digested’.
Please do not slick the channel up with scripting. Its not needed. Your graphics and cutaways are great, and are the only ‘icing’ this rewarding cake of a channel needed to be a satisfying treat at every offering. Bravo sir, well done! I have learned a lot here and it has kindled a renewed interest in a subject i thought i had learned enough about. I am happy to to say that i was mistaken! 👍🏼
In its newest submarines Japan stopped using AIP because the modern batteries have a lot more endurance so AIP wasn't needed anymore.
Love this stuff man keep it up!
It is exactly the other way round. The AIP system is not used to power the motor directly. In case of the fuel cell system you need to power the batteri. Specialy because the output of the fuell cell can not be changed. You need to run it on the same output to have full efficency. So you couldn't adjust the power output to the demand of the motor. That is why you use the battteri as a buffer.
okay which one is more worth the overall value is it aip or lithium ion?...... usinx both would be excellent
I also thought I knew more! Thanks for all the info!
How do you see a future AIP submarine armed with the new hipersonic missile ? - like the ones that Russia developed in recent years - in the way Polaris missile were used ? France for example is curently testing the Exocet missile on her subs. My opinion is we are whitnessing the dusk of the carrier în the same manner the WW2 was the end of battleship. And that for USA could mean the end of supremacy on the sea.
I’ve watched one video of yours and have subscribed, this was a very good presentation. Speaking as someone who does a fair amount of public speaking, I like your “semi-scripted” approach. Granted it’s how I usually do it, so perhaps I am not fully impartial! Whenever speaking on a topic that you have a solid command of (like you do here) making an outline to organize, and if necessary remind you of your key points, helps keep a relaxed and conversational tone. For instance, I was very engaged the entire and the video felt much shorter than 23 minutes.
Of course, everyone is different, and if you would feel more comfortable scripting it all out, I’d say go for it.
Cheers!
A SUBMARINE WITH TORPEDO CANNOT SINK A LARGE AIRCRAFT CARRIER. MUST BE VERY LUCKY TO DO SO.
A submarine stealthy enough to even get within torpedo (especially ones armed with a nuclear warhead) firing range of a carrier is a menace sufficient to turn any Admiral's hair white (or whiter).
Thanks for the comprehensive presentation
H I Sutton is a true legend. Like all your content.
Hi, I wondered over here from Sub Brief. Keep it up, I’m enjoying your content.
Ditto here! Sub Brief and other sources.
Greets from Scandinavia! Nice!
I dig your videos. They're informative and not over the top. Really works for me.
A low powered glider mode has always interested me. By moving a cylinder in the bow forward and back requires little power. By taking in water then push it out allows the sub to accend and dive . The sub would be silent as it rises and dives . By doing this the sub would move forward through the water. Rise over run .
I made a glider sub model in school that would stop and charge it's batteries by solar energy. It may not be practical in a military environment but one could travel the world in a diy personal sub. I have always wondered why no one has ever done this? Just a thought.
WOW really interesting. Thank you so much.
Very interesting topic. Thanks.
Very impressive! I had no real concept how AIP worked. I really appreciate the information. Thanks
In the late 80s, I read about research into Stirling engines for powering submarines. It took a while, but it's fun to see it finally taking off.
Thank you very much for making this video. I value your videos & website very much.
Very much enjoyed the video. Might I suggest some sound dampening on the walls / hard surfaces for that wee echo, and those page turns. Everything else was perfect! Great presentation.