Rosa is such a hypocrite and always has been. He thinks he dictates what stories are told and who is allowed to tell them. Ignore him! The crap that streams out of his mouth is never ending.
Hey everyone, if you were looking for the guy who started a “whites only” street photography group in California, called me slurs, and is weirdly enough consistently trying to get me to acknowledge him because he either admires me and wants attention or is unemployed - say hello to Michael Hoaglan or something.
Great conversation here guys! I do have to correct something in this video tho regarding the headdress. Pete is not affiliated with that call at all. He’s not affiliated with bringing in any subjects actually. He was just along for the ride that was being given to him, that’s all I can say! Back to the convo! It’s odd to think this convo hasn’t been a bigger conversation here on RUclips. When we’re all creatives who want document such things, so I love that it’s coming to this. It tends to be a certain type of person (I’ll let yall guess who lol) who has a problem with this fact, the groups of people who are either minorities or have been subject to generational trauma and genocide.. are now taking back ownership of their culture the youth is on fire and we now know we can tell our own stories. WE NEED ALLIES still tho. Instead of people in the past who have tried to tell our stories.. they need to now help us tell our own. It’s that simple. It’s standing side by side. I really don’t see why some people have an issue with that. Blows my mind. Thank you for continuing this conversation brutha. I know there’s been a movement stirring up down south with the Mexican indigenous culture I’m always part Tarahumara and I hope to explore that one day as well.
Thank you for the correction! I’m glad to know he didn’t provide any head dress! Yes - this subject is one that needs to be talked about because documentation and photojournalism is more than just minorities and poverty. It’s athletes, royals, workers, unions, etc. So many things are documented but it’s only certain “people” that are viewed as needing help or needing someone to be their voice. That bias isn’t needed or asked for in most of the time and it’s about ethical makeup than the right to document things just because you can.
This conversation is a very important one. As an African, it is amazing how many photographers go to Africa as documentary photographers to get the same photos that they see shared by other people, just like them. They just love to see photos of Africans painted in mud and ash. A lot of Americans don't even know Africa is not a country... But they think this is what Africa looks like.
Great point - to document something is to tell the objective truth; but so many people just want an aesthetic or stereotype. Both are photography - but they aren’t free from critique.
What country in Africa are you from? I've always wondered why Africans refer to themselves just as "African", when in fact, it is a whole continent and surprisingly diverse.
@@JorgePille I am Nigerian. Africa as a continent was mostly distinguishable by tribes. Nationality was a foreign concept imposed by the West when they plundered the continent. They needed a way to split the loot essentially. We recognized each other by tribal identity and language. Because most Westerners don't know, Africans would just say they are Africans rather than tell you I am Igbo, or Ibibio, Fulani, Zulu, Tiv... Etc.
Disclaimer: my gripe against self-assignments isn’t the idea (we used to just call them projects) but entitlement behind some of them. Just because you’re your own boss doesn’t mean you can excuse yourself of accountability and actual journalistic integrity; there is a way to go about things and just because the “assignment” isn’t structured doesn’t mean you are free to be without structure. Peter’s photos were great. If it was just a claim that he took cool photos there would be no issue - it’s when he stated this self-assignment was being done to tell THEIR story then he followed up by not telling their story and getting everything wrong EXCEPT the stereotype that there was a problem. Create projects for yourself. It’s good for the art. But do not for one second think that because you only answer to yourself that you shouldn’t have to hold yourself accountable like those on an assignment from a publication would.
To be fair, if I’m not mistaked, according to Peter’s words in the video he didn’t go there to document indigenous culture. He went there to get photos of Arizona’s landscape. The indigenous man was just someone Peter and his friend crossed paths with when looking to “make a photo” and find horses, and things went on from there. Ended up becoming more than what he planned. So, it is understandable that there wasn’t a ton of information about the guy captured, because that’s not what peter went there for. He went there for some photos, ended up implementing the man into the trip and turned out misrepresenting him
I can see that - I may have misinterpreted some things and I didn’t think he provided the head dress but again he did have to ask for that man to take that photo for it to take place. Cam Mackey made a great video about this that helps explain why that felt in poor taste to people in that community. Again I never said Peter was malicious.
@@DeeRosa I saw cam’s video, as well as your comment there. I knew after your comment, I’d see this video of you dropping gems at some point Hahah. We’re on the same page. I know where you stand. I also don’t think he had anything other than pure intent. Like Cam and I discussed on his vid about it, some people are just uninformed with some subjects and Peter was one of them with this one! He can Cam spoke and cleared things up though, so, at least now pete can do his part in not contributing to those kind of stereotypes
So Native Americans can only document native Americans? So Irish can only document Irish? So New Yorkers can only document New Yorkers? Man gtfoh. If Peter bought that head dress with him that’s incredibly disrespectful, yes. But if the native American guy came up to him and was hey you want to take my picture? So the fuck what. Documenting cultures in their traditional dress can be a hugely proud moment for the individual wearing it. Like a marine in dress uniform. Like a descendant of the samurai wearing their ancestors armour. It doesn’t mean the photographer is taking the piss out of the person. If Peter McKinnon wants to go to a indigenous community then that’s up to him. Stay in your own loan man. You do you. You’re not the god of photography.
@@DeeRosa that’s exactly what you said. I don’t like Peter McKinnon particularly, but he hasn’t done anything wrong. He came across the Native American guy who wanted him to take a picture. Big deal. You say the head dress wasn’t the right one for that local tribe? And? How do you know? More importantly how was Peter supposed to know? You expect him to research every tribal headwear for every particular hierarchy in every particular community? Don’t be so ridiculous. Your argument that people only go to the slums and run down areas of communities to take pictures- well thats where real life is. If by your logic no white man should ever go there to document it then the world wouldn’t know these places exist. National Geographic would be long out of business. You did a video about photography gatekeeping and that’s exactly what you’re fucking doing here. It’s not your job to tell people what they can or can’t photograph so get over yourself.
At the end of the day, the video might have missed the mark. BUT we dont know what is going to be in the book, which is what the video was for. We dont know that this is everything in its entirety, there may be more photos, there may be more “story”. We dont know, so we cant judge based on this single video.
Peter Mckinnon was very straightforward in his goal, that goal being to capture content for a photo book. He did not present himself as a photojournalist or that he was documenting anything. As he said, he was making, i.e. staging, photographs for his book. His 'made' photo of a native American in traditional headdress was and is irresponsible as it stands considering the platform that Peter Mckinnon commands.
Spot on. Ethnocentrism and the colonial gaze seem to be huge problems in artistic spaces, but especially in photography spaces. Peter really accessorized these native folks for some aesthetic pleasure-and whether he knew it or not is irrelevant in my opinion. Being ignorant of what we do is not an excuse in 2023-especially when news about the horrors of boarding schools are common place in Canada. Not knowing that you’re doing something racist and engaging in colonial nonsense is not a viable or believable excuse anymore. Peter should have known better and done better. But I digress. Great discussion, D. Very much appreciate your candidness.
Your comment on “take a photo” was spot on. You bring up so many great points about the missteps of this project. Would have been more interesting to see the real life of the people he crossed paths with and bring awareness to their plight to his community of followers.
There was a certain level of ick that I had watching Pete's video. Thank you for articulating it. To graze over Pete spending the day with that elder, talking about what they've gone through, and then didn't say anything about it, to cut to him taking the photo he took. It just didn't feel right. I think your point about the stories he could have told about the people in his own backyard is so true. There's plenty of people to give a platform, to use his influence/reach to let others tell their stories in their own way. There's so much he can do with his place, but instead he took a photo.
So your comment is exactly the only issue I had with the video and the actual point everyone was discussing about where he missed the mark: He made a spectacle of the time spent and mentioned the story and telling it. Then didn’t. Wrong head dress. No elaboration. Just bad wording. If he wanted an editorial it could be understood. Yet the responsibility of the stories he heard were his to portray and that’s because of his words not mine. No one is mad at him tho and shouldn’t be. It is just important to understand the responsibility each of us have when “telling other peoples stories”. It’s a learning lesson and I hear he understands where he embellished a bit and supposedly the videos since been edited so 💁🏽
The thing to avoid is being "ethnocentric", which is to say, documenting anything in a way that is one's culture judging another's culture. The way to avoid this is to simply document what is there and let the images tell the story. I've been doing documentary photography in one form or another for 40 years and I've learned that if you shoot an assignment with a preconceived idea of what you "want" you lose the very essence of what "is." Ypu also have to understand that people are people no matter where you go. When you do that approach, it will show, that regardless of culture, etc., we all have more in common than not (and that makes a lot of people uncomfortable which can be a good thing - it makes them think).
Very good point! Not letting bias win is easy! Which is why the idea of a self assignment is dangerous. When you’re on assignment you have parameters and requirements and a narrative of the story to tell. If you don’t have that you’re more likely to CREATE the story. Again what Peter did was a fashion or editorial shoot which is why the statement of this is me helping them tell their story wasn’t truthful.
I’ve always approached it like this: I shoot what I see. It’s between me & the subject. I have my morals that I have to face (why I don’t shoot the homeless like I did when I was new to photography). I remain objective & curious, and I never disturb the scene, I just frame it in a way which seems most interesting. I shoot for me. I don’t write stuff about my photos, I shoot as is and leave it up to the viewer.
sounds like that will work. i think that's what most people need to hear and also need to remember: you can take a photo of anything you want BUT a negative response can happen especially if things seem off about it. I've been approached about my own work and been told it's not my place to document certain things; but there are things you can do to verify whether or not you went about it ethically. its a learning moment for all and i've heard someone has reached out to peter and he understands that it's not about the photo being taken it's about the way he presented his reasoning in the video later.
I believe documentary photography is always subjective. It’s about the artist’s vision of the world. The problem is only when photographers go into it with a preconceived notion and that becomes their vision. The viewer shouldn’t make the mistake that it’s about documenting facts. Are you of the opinion it’s about documenting ‘reality’?
A fair point there. Too many westerners shooting the stereotypical photos of indigenous cultures ie Omo valley Ethiopia for example, simply not taking any time to understand them, just an afternoon or two of shooting a colorful stand-up of tribal people daubing themselves with paints/horns/warthog necklaces (the latter used previously as adornment to the lead/sacred cow in the 90's). Some locals see opportunity to make business from the tourists too and ham up the dress code. Now all the world sees on search is all these fake photos of guns/paint/headdresses/pretty things.. Entitlement vs integrity, good point. I've seen the super-tourist photos as Susan Sontag stated, made by pros down there and as you said, no personal integrity, nothing different, no real delineation beyond aesthetic stereotypical preconception. Even the pro publication work is biased, again, based on an existing false premis of Africa as the poor/troubled continent. We don't necessarily need objective truth, it's all subjective, but we do need some originality, a unique perspective with something new to say.
You’re saying that “you/we” “aren’t need to tell a story” but we are needed regardless if we are in that culture or not. Look at it this way Peter has the platform to reach out and grab our attention (i.e) he is helping out and telling us their story. For all you know that headdress could be that tribes true headdress and you may have received the wrong information. All I’m saying is that I would be proud if Peter would take photos of OUR Hispanic culture. My point of view is that Peter did an amazing job “The Valley” was an incredible piece that he has put out there. @PeterMckinnon if you see this thank you for sharing and inspiring us photographs to “Make Photographs“
We aren’t needed. Doesn’t mean we aren’t allowed to do so. You’re taking it from the standpoint of I said Peter didn’t have a right. I said he messed up by saying he was going to tell their story and the head dress was wrong and we didn’t even learn about them. This is about ethics. We aren’t needed to tell stories. Someone will but there is not one savior to someone. Less ego helps you stop seeing what you’re doing as an absolute godsend and makes you ask questions and think about it. The head dress isn’t that tribes and it was confirmed by that nations members. Again as I said in the video the images were great so good for him. He just portrayed things weirdly and that was the reaction. Relax man.
You know this topic stimulates different emotions and thoughts for me. As a black man born in America I wouldn’t know how to approach photographing my never known roots of Africa. Even though I am black I was bombarded all my life with the National Geographic slant on things. We have to remember that everything is edited and if you didn’t make it you don’t know what was intentionally or unintentionally left out. As much as I love photography I would want to just talk and listen before I think of pushing the shutter button.
It’s a touchy subject. But I believe we can all learn an ethical way to approach it. We all have bias and we all have things we have to learn and unlearn. No one is above this and everyone can and has made these mistakes.
Great thoughts here Dee! Thanks for posting! The North American Indian by Edward S. Curtis comes to mind from the early 1900’s documenting Native American life pre-colonization. Looking up the book, Curtis took over 40,000 photographic images of members of over 80 tribes. He also made over 10,000 wax cylinder recordings of Native American language and music. I believe JP Morgan may have funded the project? Fascinating work, but also not controversy free over a hundred years ago… Curtis was accused of manipulating images and paying Native Americans for staged photos.
It’s a bit condescending to say you can’t tell stories from other cultures. Yes, the “white savior” thing is a big problem. But to say someone can’t share/participate with/in stories of other cultures is to say we can’t understand other cultures. That’s not good. Yes, let’s lift up indigenous storytellers, but let’s leave space for exploration, understanding and sharing.
Never said that at all in this video. I literally discussed how to do this the right way. My only comment was people on self assignment going into cultures that aren’t theirs first and just documenting stereotypes was weird. Holy fhkk dude did you watch the video. This is so annoying when you guys get so hurt over something I NEVER SAID. This is about mentality not the access.
@@seed157 I’m sorry that you’re still hurt because out of your now 21 comments I don’t pretend I care about you throwing a hissy fit because I didn’t follow you back on Instagram or whatever you initially got mad about and now you boost my content by leaving, again, 21 COMMENTS across random videos.
Did he edit the video after this drama started?Just watched his video and I have no idea why anybody's making videos about "we don't need you to tell our stories" he made no claim or suggestion that that was his intent with these photos. Just a classic case of people looking to be offended and then backpedaling. Again I just saw it so maybe he edited the video and re-uploaded? let me know if I'm wrong on that part
i think i'm one of only two videos discussing this. my video is about claiming to do something for the benefit of others and it not being the case is bad when the image you requested to take of someone is a stereotype. i can't speak for natives as i'm not one. but from the other person who made a video there are a few things that were disrespectful including the claim that he was doing this to tell those peoples story and the fact that the garments the man was depicted in was wrong and culturally not ok.
@DeeRosa true there was no context to where the headdress appeared from but I watched the video and I'm struggling to see/hear the part where he said he was telling their story for them.
I really want to get you to talk to Daniel Milnor when it comes to documentary work - i feel he too holds a high standard on what it takes to make a piece of work. same no hate against peter and I personally stopped watching for quite a while when his video feel like more click bait - when videos are all titled "end this" "end that" "this is the end" - like so many endings to bait people to click on the video
In Peter's video, the old gentlemen even mentioned the fact that the outfit he was wearing was like western movies. (White depiction of the culture) Kinda weird to say when its your culture. I wouldn't say my african close look like the one from black panther. It was just odd to me.
Peter is a machine of create content and… money. Simple as that, and nothing wrong behind. I don’t follow him regularly (I don’t like ‘cool kids/hipsters’ vibes), but I would say he inspires more people into photography doing what he does, than someone telling what to do or not, most probably based on a wrong assumption, during 20 minutes (unless someone had the universal truth, which I don’t think so). We should distinguish photojournalism, documentalism, from pure commercial (art/entertainment) content, that also differentiates a channel from having 17k to 6 million followers.
I saw the video in question. While I have to admit that I wasn't amazed by the content, I find your criticism a bit judgmental and unfair. I feel like we are having a Steve McCurry moment all over again complete with people calling to stone him! I took this to be be Peter sharing his own story about a trip he wanted. I never took it to be a story of the native people. I think that sometimes we have to put thinks into perspective. While you do have a common ancestry with the older gentleman in the video, you have a different experience than his and may also have a different take on the posing in traditional dress in the homeland of his ancestors. He may have been proud to represent his culture in this fashion. I am an American born to Cuban immigrants. I understand that ancestry comes with history that is sometimes painful. I am also acutely aware that not all people of Cuban decent have the same story or view point on their common history. I would also never criticize another Cuban descendant for the way in which the cherish or exhibit their heritage. We all have a common ancestry but we do not have common views or personal stories. Just food for though.
You can feel that. Not killing him at all - I’m talking about from the standpoint of ethics. If you’re gonna say you’re telling someone’s story - do that. Not just the stereotype. Did you hear me once say it was bad, he was malicious, or that he meant to upset people? The stuff you’re bringing up isn’t even relative. I literally say you don’t have to be from the community but if you aren’t from it it’s your job to understand what you’re doing or why things are important if you’re saying your goal was to tell someone’s story. Hope you can see past the offense and understand that this isn’t about him but about talking to people about how to not add their bias and ego into a documenting setting. You can rewatch if you’d like and I hope you see I excused him for all things but his attempt at making it sound like he was helping.
@@djgarcia72 nope. No hate. I stated that I don’t think he did it maliciously. That’s why I didn’t tag him. People have reached out to him. This is strictly to educate
wow..... this was a masterclass. This was a very deep topic and well explain.. I feel like he didn't throw shade on Peter . He just respectfully told him he should keep some things in mind before he take the shot.
Which is none of Dee’s business. Peter is not a child that needs to be talked down to. The kid needs to worry about himself instead of preaching to others.
An artist creates art. Just because you do not like the art does not mean that the artist does not have a right to create it. Fortunately we are protected by the first amendment to the US Constitution. If you don't like the art don't buy it. Simple as that, it wasn't for you.
I wish I could share this video with every photographer that comes here to New Orleans and practices poor ethics when documenting the city's Black culture. Thanks for this
Love to hear your point on this as I’m looking to do some work in New Orleans. My rule is if I don’t know the people or the culture then it’s wrong of me not to talk to those I’m taking photos of in a community. We have to see people as people and not a cool item in a photo.
Does this mean that all of those historical photographs of native cultures should be scorned and disregarded because they were taken by non indigenous people? There are many famous examples of such photographs
Nope. Never said that and if you think I did you can point to it. If that’s all you got from this because it offended you then nothing I say will change it. This would be like me going to a white man and asking him to wear a white robe and point face covering, or make him pose screaming at minorities but then saying I did it to tell their story. The stereotype isn’t for anything but a cool photo; it’s like asking a Mexican to wear a sombrero and work a taco stand and say I’m helping tell a story. You’re not. You’re just taking a photo you think would be cool. But sure - you can delete those photos! That’s what sensitive people always revert to doing. Instead of growing let’s just go to the extremes cry baby got.
@@DeeRosa it was a genuine question Dee. I wasn’t intending to offend. I’ve followed your channel for quite a while and I think you make some really good and interesting points. Have a good day👌
@@colinbreeze2814 i appreciate that. Let me better explain - I can’t make someone not take a photo. This video wasn’t to cancel photo or work. It’s created. It’s to help people going forward. I wish it wasn’t Peter that did what he did. He’s a nice man I’m sure. Just bad phrasing and a good teaching point.
I think you’ve made a very eloquent argument. Unfortunately, you IMO, undermine what you’ve said by wearing a headdress that apparently you don’t normally wear. Looking through your videos I didn’t see any others where you are wearing a cowboy hat. Just saying…
So you’re comparing a hat which is part of my Mexican heritage as they were originally warn by vaqueros and were later adopted by settlers in what is now Texas to a native headdress being incorrect? That’s the most fragile, POS argument ever. Also you can watch, “these cameras are blowing others out of the water”, “this should be your next camera upgrade…” to name two and you can go back further. Or you can go to Instagram. Or just come visit me since it hurts you so much. Or did you think only white men are allowed to wear a hat? Is what what you’re implying that I’m encroaching on the white mans culture and that upsets you because you don’t even know the history of the “headdress” I’m wearing.
@@RichardBO9 did you delete your reply to my reply Richard? Can you explain the hypocrisy of me wearing a hat that is originally from my culture and that I’ve worn for the last 15 years? Take your time sir. I know throwing a hissy fit take a a lot of energy.
@@DeeRosa I didn't delete anything. This video appears to be the first time in the 72 videos you posted that you worn this hat that you wear all the time. I stand by my original observation.
@@RichardBO9again, a hat that my culture created? That I’m wearing in the multiple videos I’ve given you? Are you afraid of facts or are you the type that thinks a hissy fit isn’t complete unless you ignore facts? Whose culture did I take btw? The
I have enjoyed your videos and what I will say comes from a place of love and effort to make the platform better. But you add such a fine woke filter, that nothing creative can go through. Imagine if Magnum Photo was not taking pictures because they had their "bias". Imagine if National Geographic had done the same while meeting indigenus tribes. Imagine if Salgado felt that he is not qualified to shoot the the goldminers because "they don't need him to say their story" or because he will sell make a photobook of them afterwards. There is no such a thing as a photo without the bias of the artist. If the bias is too strong or too skew or too pretentious for that matter, then the photo will be poor and will be lost in the sea of oblivion, like millions and millions of poor or mediocre photos. But taking the moral highground and defining what photos are allowed and what are not is a gateway to a very very dangerous train of thought.
When you say “woke” I assume you mean it as a stand-in for something racial; and your argument had nothing to do with what I said in this video and it’s weird as hell that y’all can’t listen because you have to defend something that didn’t need defending. Fragility is wild.
No sir, no racial context in woke. More like a set of ultra sensitive rules for group normalcy. If you read my argument, you will see that it is has EVERYTHING to do with your video. Namely, the western (anglosaxon in your words) filter of viewing things, the self appointed right to express a view and the effect that money may be made out of it. And btw, I have nothing to defend. It is you video that tenders to fragility, not my comment. I am making the point that the more rules we make on what is acceptable or appropriate, the less the expression of art is served.@@DeeRosa
@@harisaliprantis8251 I didn’t say anything about him making money. Or that he shouldn’t. I don’t care. The point t of this video was to discuss what to do and not do so that you avoid such backlash. Did you not watch the video? Or did you get hung up in the offense? Peter did mess up but not because he shouldn’t be allowed to take the photo, dude. But because he positioned it as though he took it with the intent to tell that man’s story and it told nothing of him or his tribe and wasn’t even accurate. That’s why nothing you say makes sense.
@@DeeRosa Of course I watched the video. And nowhere does he say, imply, or in anyway claim that he represents the indian man's culture, history or pain or that in any way he tells his story. He upfront says he collects content for a book. That's all. OK, so he used a prop that was out of context and a "cliche". So what? I don't "get hung up in the offence" or have "fragility which is wild". You mounted a defence against a threat that you alone perceive. I will write no more because anything else will be a repetition of my above posts. Be well and good luck going forward
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Rosa is such a hypocrite and always has been. He thinks he dictates what stories are told and who is allowed to tell them. Ignore him! The crap that streams out of his mouth is never ending.
Hey everyone, if you were looking for the guy who started a “whites only” street photography group in California, called me slurs, and is weirdly enough consistently trying to get me to acknowledge him because he either admires me and wants attention or is unemployed - say hello to Michael Hoaglan or something.
As usual Dee lies his ass off. I never called you a slur. You’re such a “victim “. But White Photo Only on Facebook, that’s me!!! Hahaha
Great conversation here guys! I do have to correct something in this video tho regarding the headdress. Pete is not affiliated with that call at all. He’s not affiliated with bringing in any subjects actually. He was just along for the ride that was being given to him, that’s all I can say! Back to the convo!
It’s odd to think this convo hasn’t been a bigger conversation here on RUclips. When we’re all creatives who want document such things, so I love that it’s coming to this. It tends to be a certain type of person (I’ll let yall guess who lol) who has a problem with this fact, the groups of people who are either minorities or have been subject to generational trauma and genocide.. are now taking back ownership of their culture the youth is on fire and we now know we can tell our own stories. WE NEED ALLIES still tho. Instead of people in the past who have tried to tell our stories.. they need to now help us tell our own. It’s that simple. It’s standing side by side. I really don’t see why some people have an issue with that. Blows my mind.
Thank you for continuing this conversation brutha. I know there’s been a movement stirring up down south with the Mexican indigenous culture I’m always part Tarahumara and I hope to explore that one day as well.
Thank you for the correction! I’m glad to know he didn’t provide any head dress!
Yes - this subject is one that needs to be talked about because documentation and photojournalism is more than just minorities and poverty. It’s athletes, royals, workers, unions, etc. So many things are documented but it’s only certain “people” that are viewed as needing help or needing someone to be their voice.
That bias isn’t needed or asked for in most of the time and it’s about ethical makeup than the right to document things just because you can.
This conversation is a very important one. As an African, it is amazing how many photographers go to Africa as documentary photographers to get the same photos that they see shared by other people, just like them. They just love to see photos of Africans painted in mud and ash. A lot of Americans don't even know Africa is not a country... But they think this is what Africa looks like.
Great point - to document something is to tell the objective truth; but so many people just want an aesthetic or stereotype.
Both are photography - but they aren’t free from critique.
What country in Africa are you from? I've always wondered why Africans refer to themselves just as "African", when in fact, it is a whole continent and surprisingly diverse.
@@JorgePille I am Nigerian. Africa as a continent was mostly distinguishable by tribes. Nationality was a foreign concept imposed by the West when they plundered the continent. They needed a way to split the loot essentially. We recognized each other by tribal identity and language. Because most Westerners don't know, Africans would just say they are Africans rather than tell you I am Igbo, or Ibibio, Fulani, Zulu, Tiv... Etc.
Disclaimer: my gripe against self-assignments isn’t the idea (we used to just call them projects) but entitlement behind some of them.
Just because you’re your own boss doesn’t mean you can excuse yourself of accountability and actual journalistic integrity; there is a way to go about things and just because the “assignment” isn’t structured doesn’t mean you are free to be without structure.
Peter’s photos were great. If it was just a claim that he took cool photos there would be no issue - it’s when he stated this self-assignment was being done to tell THEIR story then he followed up by not telling their story and getting everything wrong EXCEPT the stereotype that there was a problem.
Create projects for yourself. It’s good for the art. But do not for one second think that because you only answer to yourself that you shouldn’t have to hold yourself accountable like those on an assignment from a publication would.
To be fair, if I’m not mistaked, according to Peter’s words in the video he didn’t go there to document indigenous culture. He went there to get photos of Arizona’s landscape. The indigenous man was just someone Peter and his friend crossed paths with when looking to “make a photo” and find horses, and things went on from there. Ended up becoming more than what he planned.
So, it is understandable that there wasn’t a ton of information about the guy captured, because that’s not what peter went there for. He went there for some photos, ended up implementing the man into the trip and turned out misrepresenting him
I can see that - I may have misinterpreted some things and I didn’t think he provided the head dress but again he did have to ask for that man to take that photo for it to take place. Cam Mackey made a great video about this that helps explain why that felt in poor taste to people in that community. Again I never said Peter was malicious.
@@DeeRosa I saw cam’s video, as well as your comment there. I knew after your comment, I’d see this video of you dropping gems at some point Hahah. We’re on the same page. I know where you stand. I also don’t think he had anything other than pure intent. Like Cam and I discussed on his vid about it, some people are just uninformed with some subjects and Peter was one of them with this one!
He can Cam spoke and cleared things up though, so, at least now pete can do his part in not contributing to those kind of stereotypes
@Eyeofkamau any way to help me find cam's video on this? I searched and can't find it
@@nickguzman1734 he and peter ended up talking and working things out. He probably deleted it
So Native Americans can only document native Americans? So Irish can only document Irish? So New Yorkers can only document New Yorkers? Man gtfoh. If Peter bought that head dress with him that’s incredibly disrespectful, yes. But if the native American guy came up to him and was hey you want to take my picture? So the fuck what. Documenting cultures in their traditional dress can be a hugely proud moment for the individual wearing it. Like a marine in dress uniform. Like a descendant of the samurai wearing their ancestors armour. It doesn’t mean the photographer is taking the piss out of the person. If Peter McKinnon wants to go to a indigenous community then that’s up to him. Stay in your own loan man. You do you. You’re not the god of photography.
Never said that. Go cry.
@@DeeRosa that’s exactly what you said. I don’t like Peter McKinnon particularly, but he hasn’t done anything wrong. He came across the Native American guy who wanted him to take a picture. Big deal. You say the head dress wasn’t the right one for that local tribe? And? How do you know? More importantly how was Peter supposed to know? You expect him to research every tribal headwear for every particular hierarchy in every particular community? Don’t be so ridiculous. Your argument that people only go to the slums and run down areas of communities to take pictures- well thats where real life is. If by your logic no white man should ever go there to document it then the world wouldn’t know these places exist. National Geographic would be long out of business. You did a video about photography gatekeeping and that’s exactly what you’re fucking doing here. It’s not your job to tell people what they can or can’t photograph so get over yourself.
facts
At the end of the day, the video might have missed the mark. BUT we dont know what is going to be in the book, which is what the video was for. We dont know that this is everything in its entirety, there may be more photos, there may be more “story”. We dont know, so we cant judge based on this single video.
Photography ethics: criticise with false assumptions the work of someone who is successful. How bad envy is!
That’s crazy Saul.
Peter Mckinnon was very straightforward in his goal, that goal being to capture content for a photo book. He did not present himself as a photojournalist or that he was documenting anything. As he said, he was making, i.e. staging, photographs for his book. His 'made' photo of a native American in traditional headdress was and is irresponsible as it stands considering the platform that Peter Mckinnon commands.
1,000,000% spot on. Thank you for voicing this. Quality content as well. Subscribed.
Spot on. Ethnocentrism and the colonial gaze seem to be huge problems in artistic spaces, but especially in photography spaces. Peter really accessorized these native folks for some aesthetic pleasure-and whether he knew it or not is irrelevant in my opinion. Being ignorant of what we do is not an excuse in 2023-especially when news about the horrors of boarding schools are common place in Canada. Not knowing that you’re doing something racist and engaging in colonial nonsense is not a viable or believable excuse anymore. Peter should have known better and done better. But I digress. Great discussion, D. Very much appreciate your candidness.
Your comment on “take a photo” was spot on. You bring up so many great points about the missteps of this project. Would have been more interesting to see the real life of the people he crossed paths with and bring awareness to their plight to his community of followers.
There was a certain level of ick that I had watching Pete's video. Thank you for articulating it. To graze over Pete spending the day with that elder, talking about what they've gone through, and then didn't say anything about it, to cut to him taking the photo he took. It just didn't feel right. I think your point about the stories he could have told about the people in his own backyard is so true. There's plenty of people to give a platform, to use his influence/reach to let others tell their stories in their own way. There's so much he can do with his place, but instead he took a photo.
Cam Mackey's video also had some great, similiar points to your's.
So your comment is exactly the only issue I had with the video and the actual point everyone was discussing about where he missed the mark: He made a spectacle of the time spent and mentioned the story and telling it. Then didn’t. Wrong head dress. No elaboration. Just bad wording. If he wanted an editorial it could be understood. Yet the responsibility of the stories he heard were his to portray and that’s because of his words not mine. No one is mad at him tho and shouldn’t be. It is just important to understand the responsibility each of us have when “telling other peoples stories”. It’s a learning lesson and I hear he understands where he embellished a bit and supposedly the videos since been edited so 💁🏽
The thing to avoid is being "ethnocentric", which is to say, documenting anything in a way that is one's culture judging another's culture. The way to avoid this is to simply document what is there and let the images tell the story. I've been doing documentary photography in one form or another for 40 years and I've learned that if you shoot an assignment with a preconceived idea of what you "want" you lose the very essence of what "is." Ypu also have to understand that people are people no matter where you go. When you do that approach, it will show, that regardless of culture, etc., we all have more in common than not (and that makes a lot of people uncomfortable which can be a good thing - it makes them think).
Very good point! Not letting bias win is easy! Which is why the idea of a self assignment is dangerous. When you’re on assignment you have parameters and requirements and a narrative of the story to tell. If you don’t have that you’re more likely to CREATE the story. Again what Peter did was a fashion or editorial shoot which is why the statement of this is me helping them tell their story wasn’t truthful.
I’ve always approached it like this: I shoot what I see. It’s between me & the subject. I have my morals that I have to face (why I don’t shoot the homeless like I did when I was new to photography). I remain objective & curious, and I never disturb the scene, I just frame it in a way which seems most interesting. I shoot for me. I don’t write stuff about my photos, I shoot as is and leave it up to the viewer.
sounds like that will work. i think that's what most people need to hear and also need to remember: you can take a photo of anything you want BUT a negative response can happen especially if things seem off about it.
I've been approached about my own work and been told it's not my place to document certain things; but there are things you can do to verify whether or not you went about it ethically. its a learning moment for all and i've heard someone has reached out to peter and he understands that it's not about the photo being taken it's about the way he presented his reasoning in the video later.
I believe documentary photography is always subjective. It’s about the artist’s vision of the world. The problem is only when photographers go into it with a preconceived notion and that becomes their vision. The viewer shouldn’t make the mistake that it’s about documenting facts. Are you of the opinion it’s about documenting ‘reality’?
A fair point there. Too many westerners shooting the stereotypical photos of indigenous cultures ie Omo valley Ethiopia for example, simply not taking any time to understand them, just an afternoon or two of shooting a colorful stand-up of tribal people daubing themselves with paints/horns/warthog necklaces (the latter used previously as adornment to the lead/sacred cow in the 90's). Some locals see opportunity to make business from the tourists too and ham up the dress code. Now all the world sees on search is all these fake photos of guns/paint/headdresses/pretty things..
Entitlement vs integrity, good point. I've seen the super-tourist photos as Susan Sontag stated, made by pros down there and as you said, no personal integrity, nothing different, no real delineation beyond aesthetic stereotypical preconception. Even the pro publication work is biased, again, based on an existing false premis of Africa as the poor/troubled continent.
We don't necessarily need objective truth, it's all subjective, but we do need some originality, a unique perspective with something new to say.
A Native American, wearing a headdress, on a horse. Good job channeling your inner Buffalo Bill there, Pete.
You’re saying that “you/we” “aren’t need to tell a story” but we are needed regardless if we are in that culture or not. Look at it this way Peter has the platform to reach out and grab our attention (i.e) he is helping out and telling us their story. For all you know that headdress could be that tribes true headdress and you may have received the wrong information. All I’m saying is that I would be proud if Peter would take photos of OUR Hispanic culture. My point of view is that Peter did an amazing job “The Valley” was an incredible piece that he has put out there. @PeterMckinnon if you see this thank you for sharing and inspiring us photographs to “Make Photographs“
We aren’t needed. Doesn’t mean we aren’t allowed to do so. You’re taking it from the standpoint of I said Peter didn’t have a right. I said he messed up by saying he was going to tell their story and the head dress was wrong and we didn’t even learn about them.
This is about ethics. We aren’t needed to tell stories. Someone will but there is not one savior to someone. Less ego helps you stop seeing what you’re doing as an absolute godsend and makes you ask questions and think about it.
The head dress isn’t that tribes and it was confirmed by that nations members. Again as I said in the video the images were great so good for him. He just portrayed things weirdly and that was the reaction. Relax man.
You know this topic stimulates different emotions and thoughts for me. As a black man born in America I wouldn’t know how to approach photographing my never known roots of Africa. Even though I am black I was bombarded all my life with the National Geographic slant on things. We have to remember that everything is edited and if you didn’t make it you don’t know what was intentionally or unintentionally left out. As much as I love photography I would want to just talk and listen before I think of pushing the shutter button.
It’s a touchy subject. But I believe we can all learn an ethical way to approach it. We all have bias and we all have things we have to learn and unlearn. No one is above this and everyone can and has made these mistakes.
@@DeeRosa facts bro keep up the no bullshit approach we need it to counter all this feel good do what you want mindset!
Great thoughts here Dee! Thanks for posting! The North American Indian by Edward S. Curtis comes to mind from the early 1900’s documenting Native American life pre-colonization. Looking up the book, Curtis took over 40,000 photographic images of members of over 80 tribes. He also made over 10,000 wax cylinder recordings of Native American language and music. I believe JP Morgan may have funded the project? Fascinating work, but also not controversy free over a hundred years ago… Curtis was accused of manipulating images and paying Native Americans for staged photos.
It’s a bit condescending to say you can’t tell stories from other cultures. Yes, the “white savior” thing is a big problem. But to say someone can’t share/participate with/in stories of other cultures is to say we can’t understand other cultures. That’s not good. Yes, let’s lift up indigenous storytellers, but let’s leave space for exploration, understanding and sharing.
Never said that at all in this video. I literally discussed how to do this the right way. My only comment was people on self assignment going into cultures that aren’t theirs first and just documenting stereotypes was weird. Holy fhkk dude did you watch the video. This is so annoying when you guys get so hurt over something I NEVER SAID. This is about mentality not the access.
@@seed157you’ve left 19 comments on 4 hours on my page - heal from the fact that I hurt your feelings or go cry.
@@seed157 I’m sorry that you’re still hurt because out of your now 21 comments I don’t pretend I care about you throwing a hissy fit because I didn’t follow you back on Instagram or whatever you initially got mad about and now you boost my content by leaving, again, 21 COMMENTS across random videos.
Did he edit the video after this drama started?Just watched his video and I have no idea why anybody's making videos about "we don't need you to tell our stories" he made no claim or suggestion that that was his intent with these photos. Just a classic case of people looking to be offended and then backpedaling. Again I just saw it so maybe he edited the video and re-uploaded? let me know if I'm wrong on that part
i think i'm one of only two videos discussing this. my video is about claiming to do something for the benefit of others and it not being the case is bad when the image you requested to take of someone is a stereotype. i can't speak for natives as i'm not one. but from the other person who made a video there are a few things that were disrespectful including the claim that he was doing this to tell those peoples story and the fact that the garments the man was depicted in was wrong and culturally not ok.
@DeeRosa true there was no context to where the headdress appeared from but I watched the video and I'm struggling to see/hear the part where he said he was telling their story for them.
I really want to get you to talk to Daniel Milnor when it comes to documentary work - i feel he too holds a high standard on what it takes to make a piece of work.
same no hate against peter and I personally stopped watching for quite a while when his video feel like more click bait - when videos are all titled "end this" "end that" "this is the end" - like so many endings to bait people to click on the video
You just got a subscriber. Terrific video.
In Peter's video, the old gentlemen even mentioned the fact that the outfit he was wearing was like western movies. (White depiction of the culture) Kinda weird to say when its your culture. I wouldn't say my african close look like the one from black panther. It was just odd to me.
Yup, because the outfit wasn’t his culture - Navajo didn’t and don’t wear that
the Africa part well-said
Peter is a machine of create content and… money. Simple as that, and nothing wrong behind. I don’t follow him regularly (I don’t like ‘cool kids/hipsters’ vibes), but I would say he inspires more people into photography doing what he does, than someone telling what to do or not, most probably based on a wrong assumption, during 20 minutes (unless someone had the universal truth, which I don’t think so). We should distinguish photojournalism, documentalism, from pure commercial (art/entertainment) content, that also differentiates a channel from having 17k to 6 million followers.
There is nothing at all behind it. It was a learning moment and he learned from it.
I saw the video in question. While I have to admit that I wasn't amazed by the content, I find your criticism a bit judgmental and unfair. I feel like we are having a Steve McCurry moment all over again complete with people calling to stone him! I took this to be be Peter sharing his own story about a trip he wanted. I never took it to be a story of the native people. I think that sometimes we have to put thinks into perspective. While you do have a common ancestry with the older gentleman in the video, you have a different experience than his and may also have a different take on the posing in traditional dress in the homeland of his ancestors. He may have been proud to represent his culture in this fashion. I am an American born to Cuban immigrants. I understand that ancestry comes with history that is sometimes painful. I am also acutely aware that not all people of Cuban decent have the same story or view point on their common history. I would also never criticize another Cuban descendant for the way in which the cherish or exhibit their heritage. We all have a common ancestry but we do not have common views or personal stories. Just food for though.
You can feel that. Not killing him at all - I’m talking about from the standpoint of ethics. If you’re gonna say you’re telling someone’s story - do that. Not just the stereotype. Did you hear me once say it was bad, he was malicious, or that he meant to upset people? The stuff you’re bringing up isn’t even relative. I literally say you don’t have to be from the community but if you aren’t from it it’s your job to understand what you’re doing or why things are important if you’re saying your goal was to tell someone’s story. Hope you can see past the offense and understand that this isn’t about him but about talking to people about how to not add their bias and ego into a documenting setting. You can rewatch if you’d like and I hope you see I excused him for all things but his attempt at making it sound like he was helping.
@@DeeRosa Fair enough. I just don't want to see any hate in our photo community.
@@djgarcia72 nope. No hate. I stated that I don’t think he did it maliciously. That’s why I didn’t tag him. People have reached out to him. This is strictly to educate
wow..... this was a masterclass. This was a very deep topic and well explain.. I feel like he didn't throw shade on Peter . He just respectfully told him he should keep some things in mind before he take the shot.
Which is none of Dee’s business. Peter is not a child that needs to be talked down to. The kid needs to worry about himself instead of preaching to others.
An artist creates art. Just because you do not like the art does not mean that the artist does not have a right to create it. Fortunately we are protected by the first amendment to the US Constitution. If you don't like the art don't buy it. Simple as that, it wasn't for you.
Nothing about this video even touched on what you said lmao.
I wish I could share this video with every photographer that comes here to New Orleans and practices poor ethics when documenting the city's Black culture. Thanks for this
Love to hear your point on this as I’m looking to do some work in New Orleans. My rule is if I don’t know the people or the culture then it’s wrong of me not to talk to those I’m taking photos of in a community. We have to see people as people and not a cool item in a photo.
Does this mean that all of those historical photographs of native cultures should be scorned and disregarded because they were taken by non indigenous people? There are many famous examples of such photographs
Nope. Never said that and if you think I did you can point to it.
If that’s all you got from this because it offended you then nothing I say will change it.
This would be like me going to a white man and asking him to wear a white robe and point face covering, or make him pose screaming at minorities but then saying I did it to tell their story.
The stereotype isn’t for anything but a cool photo; it’s like asking a Mexican to wear a sombrero and work a taco stand and say I’m helping tell a story. You’re not. You’re just taking a photo you think would be cool.
But sure - you can delete those photos! That’s what sensitive people always revert to doing. Instead of growing let’s just go to the extremes cry baby got.
@@DeeRosa it was a genuine question Dee. I wasn’t intending to offend. I’ve followed your channel for quite a while and I think you make some really good and interesting points. Have a good day👌
@@colinbreeze2814 i appreciate that. Let me better explain - I can’t make someone not take a photo. This video wasn’t to cancel photo or work. It’s created. It’s to help people going forward. I wish it wasn’t Peter that did what he did. He’s a nice man I’m sure. Just bad phrasing and a good teaching point.
Great conversation Dee. ❤
I think you’ve made a very eloquent argument. Unfortunately, you IMO, undermine what you’ve said by wearing a headdress that apparently you don’t normally wear. Looking through your videos I didn’t see any others where you are wearing a cowboy hat. Just saying…
So you’re comparing a hat which is part of my Mexican heritage as they were originally warn by vaqueros and were later adopted by settlers in what is now Texas to a native headdress being incorrect? That’s the most fragile, POS argument ever.
Also you can watch, “these cameras are blowing others out of the water”, “this should be your next camera upgrade…” to name two and you can go back further. Or you can go to Instagram. Or just come visit me since it hurts you so much.
Or did you think only white men are allowed to wear a hat? Is what what you’re implying that I’m encroaching on the white mans culture and that upsets you because you don’t even know the history of the “headdress” I’m wearing.
@@DeeRosa seems like you are the one that is butt-hurt. It’s you that’s a tad blind to your own hypocrisy. Whatever. 🥱
@@RichardBO9 did you delete your reply to my reply Richard? Can you explain the hypocrisy of me wearing a hat that is originally from my culture and that I’ve worn for the last 15 years? Take your time sir. I know throwing a hissy fit take a a lot of energy.
@@DeeRosa I didn't delete anything. This video appears to be the first time in the 72 videos you posted that you worn this hat that you wear all the time. I stand by my original observation.
@@RichardBO9again, a hat that my culture created? That I’m wearing in the multiple videos I’ve given you? Are you afraid of facts or are you the type that thinks a hissy fit isn’t complete unless you ignore facts? Whose culture did I take btw? The
I have enjoyed your videos and what I will say comes from a place of love and effort to make the platform better. But you add such a fine woke filter, that nothing creative can go through. Imagine if Magnum Photo was not taking pictures because they had their "bias". Imagine if National Geographic had done the same while meeting indigenus tribes. Imagine if Salgado felt that he is not qualified to shoot the the goldminers because "they don't need him to say their story" or because he will sell make a photobook of them afterwards. There is no such a thing as a photo without the bias of the artist. If the bias is too strong or too skew or too pretentious for that matter, then the photo will be poor and will be lost in the sea of oblivion, like millions and millions of poor or mediocre photos. But taking the moral highground and defining what photos are allowed and what are not is a gateway to a very very dangerous train of thought.
When you say “woke” I assume you mean it as a stand-in for something racial; and your argument had nothing to do with what I said in this video and it’s weird as hell that y’all can’t listen because you have to defend something that didn’t need defending. Fragility is wild.
No sir, no racial context in woke. More like a set of ultra sensitive rules for group normalcy. If you read my argument, you will see that it is has EVERYTHING to do with your video. Namely, the western (anglosaxon in your words) filter of viewing things, the self appointed right to express a view and the effect that money may be made out of it. And btw, I have nothing to defend. It is you video that tenders to fragility, not my comment. I am making the point that the more rules we make on what is acceptable or appropriate, the less the expression of art is served.@@DeeRosa
@@harisaliprantis8251 I didn’t say anything about him making money. Or that he shouldn’t. I don’t care. The point t of this video was to discuss what to do and not do so that you avoid such backlash. Did you not watch the video? Or did you get hung up in the offense? Peter did mess up but not because he shouldn’t be allowed to take the photo, dude. But because he positioned it as though he took it with the intent to tell that man’s story and it told nothing of him or his tribe and wasn’t even accurate. That’s why nothing you say makes sense.
@@DeeRosa Of course I watched the video. And nowhere does he say, imply, or in anyway claim that he represents the indian man's culture, history or pain or that in any way he tells his story. He upfront says he collects content for a book. That's all. OK, so he used a prop that was out of context and a "cliche". So what? I don't "get hung up in the offence" or have "fragility which is wild". You mounted a defence against a threat that you alone perceive. I will write no more because anything else will be a repetition of my above posts. Be well and good luck going forward
Why don’t you get Peter on your show to talk about it or are you more comfortable talking behind his back?
Did this hurt your feelings :(
Not mine.
@@MisterTombstonebig boy :(
This coming from a guy in a white plastic hat. Priceless!!!
@@MisterTombstone plastic? Oh you are hurt :( little guy :(
Yawn…
Oooo now this is edgy
aqesome
Thanks so much for this, and for the shoutout to Canada.