I Argued with iRacing, Can I Prove Them Wrong?
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- Putting my degree to work here...
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I feel like I just learned Santa isn't real.
Santa's real but brake bias cheese was admittedly too unrealistic
Santa's not real?
If Santa isn’t real, then why does NORAD track him????
Notice I didn't say Santa isn't real, but rather that this news is so shocking, it's comparable to finding out that such a stalwart figure of society never even existed. Truly preposterous.
The brake thing is real...so is Santa clause....I'm just saying...my son reads these ...lol
I literally just stumbled on this exact thing today running practice laps at Charlotte with the 80s car…there is definitely something to it I was getting loose entering the corner off throttle to the point of spinning out and I adjusted brake bias and it fixed the issue
Well something went on!
Nice to see you show your work and admit being wrong.
Appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience. 🎉
Eventually real life bugs are going to creep into the sim as simulators become better at simulating. Assetto Corsa Competizione accidently simulated a real life GT3 traction control bug. A traction control bug that was a realistic feature. I think the same thing shall happen in iRacing especially since you can put in far more simulated hours to find bugs than in real life.
I think it boils down to most racers being really superstitious. like Dale thinking a 50 dollar bill in his pocket prevented him from winning the 500. basically if you believe it works for you then it will work for you, thoughts and words hold that much power that it's almost supernatural.
Oval racers specifically are notorious for being superstitious, they are the hockey goalies of racing.
@@Ootlander I hate how accurate but funny this is XD so true
But it could be that you were wrong and had it reversed.
high bb could be looser than tighter
That is exactly what I noticed as well. It would take longer, but I think there would need to be a larger sample size. The answers were reversed, but consistant.
Yup, if he had a 50/50 chance on each setup test, and got them all wrong, that shows statistical significance of the highest order! Just the relationship between BB and loose/tight is reversed
Dude your videos are so original and entertaining. Plus your upbeat attitude about everything I can’t wait for your channel to blow up.
I appreciate it!
I think this is a common thing within iRacing. A lot of the times, it's hard to actually tell if there is a solid difference between mechanical differences and what is just placebo/approach/condition-based situations.
There's a lot of moving parts in iRacing and while it's easy to say that something isn't doing something, it doesn't mean that something else isn't impacting you. It's super complex and why it takes a lot of time for iRacing to fix "what should be an easy fix!" a lot of the times.
These myths are always fun when someone attempts to show their work though!
Kudos to you for showing a strong morale character and being able to say you're wrong. Lots of people would not do that.
The iracing forums are gross. You get 3 or 4 people that respectfully argue their points and then you get 10 or 15 people licking the boots of the iracing staff.
Potato you for daring to question the infinite wisdom of the iracing gods I mean staff /s
I simply don't interact with the forums. It's too toxic and pointless. I'll report bugs, but thats it. I'd much rather use a group chat, much easier to filter out the angry children.
LIEracing
DJ LIe-J idk
the original question was does BB effect the handling of the car without using brakes. From what ive seen, even though you guessed wrong the 2 setups were loose where as the other is tight. We can all see it on video. Certainly looks like it makes a difference to me.
I was going to comment the same thing. There's clearly a difference, at least based on what he said
Clearly had credits added to the account and joined the lie so they dont have to fix it
If I speak I am in trouble
Local oval expert takes the L, but gracefully.
This dude's gonna get banned from the game.
Stay strong homie.
nahhhh I just proved I can't beat iracing haha
@@montytipton14 It helps to move the bias rearward at tracks where you might brake to keep the car stable. It'll take some of the work off the front-right tyre and reduce heat buildup, letting you be faster in a long run.
@@rarewhiteape it seems its anticipating a brake
I didn't really see enough to say one way or the other. Your steering inputs and driving lines were completely different for the first lap.
Huge respect for owning it mate! I was with you all the way up to the last 2 minutes ha ha…
I respect that you did this and even showed you were wrong. Quality video as always!
I assume this video is a hoax made to get in the good graces of the Iracing team.
I suspect it is down to what happens on the out lap, and where the tire temps end up when you start your timed lap. on the video, your first run, you ran a very low line, maybe took some extra out of the fronts, and on the timed lap was tight. next run you ran a much higher line on the out lap, maybe saving the fronts a bit, and on the timed lap you were loose.
If you really want to pursue looking into this, I would say try a test using the exact same setup, and only change how you run the out lap. and if possible, save telemetry and compare tire temps (RF vs RR) so see if there is any correlation.
HMM, IF HE DID RUN DIFFERNT LINES THEN THE TEST IS POINTLESS
iRacing staff refuse to look into anything. When they do actually fix something, they end up breaking it again later down the line. I don't get it. There is clearly an issue with Brake Bias and vehicle stability. Now, how smthat issue actually manifests Idk. But that oddness is demonstrated here.
Just wanted to point out you got it totally wrong. I would like to see another experiment but with the idea you have going in reversed (84% bias makes the car worse to drive, not better) because I think if it didnt make a difference you would have gotten one right
realistically this entire video is anecdotal, it could be a thing it could not be a thing, the only thing that wouldn't be anecdotal is a staff member checking on the back end... which they did, so it really just comes down to how much credence you put into that
But you did show a difference even though it was the opposite of what you thought the result of the BB setting was.
I really appreciate you taking the time to do this experiment, but it needs to be said: Even if you guessed the correct brake bias setup after testing, it would not have proved that there was anything going on. Just that you would have guessed correctly. :) Great videos!!
You guessed it wrong the way you thought. But you guessed it right the wrong way in 100%. Need to doublecheck the mirrored composition here.
Since I don’t drive iracing, I’d say - has there been any update’s in between this test - and when you last notice the difference, if so you’d either need an old build or they’ve changed something since .
They just updated track surfaces which could have made this a bit more muddy, but I don’t believe I ran enough laps for that to kick in
i can tell i have felt the exact same thing in the road side of things also.. what happens to u happens in gt3 forrrrrr suurrreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee 100%. i just never said anything since i notice because i was sure people would say i'm stupid or something similar
Tbh I think you may still be on to something because when your brake bias was lower your grip was a lot better in corners because both setups that your BB was high the rear end did kick out hard…so this could be a very possible glitch and we all know Iracing never admits their faults if we are being honest…I mean it was until last year they fixed the grass glitch and that took what 13 years and a huge live stream event for them to finally fix it
It's time to come clean.
I never fully believed in the placebo.
I only used it because you guys did.
Are you Larsons brother? Lol jk but you do look like him a little bit.
Genuine credit for posting this, placebos mess you up.
You need to do the test multiple times. I say this as getting 100% wrong is the same as getting 100% correct and 3 tests are not enough. Just cause you got it backwards does not mean there isnt a bias, just you got it backwards. Do more testing you dont need to release multiple videos but once you tested you will know for sure.
I was hoping to see some telemetry data...
That Shure MV7 a front address microphone, if you point it at your mouth the sound quality will be better
My Ps pop really bad when I front address it I actually started out that way and read it was better offset and since I switched I haven’t had the popping problem
Props to you and your authenticity! The ability to admit when you are wrong says a ton about someone!
Honest question here.
Why do you not use the mirrors in car/truck?
I notice a lot of people don't use them, I run a single 32 curved 1440 Azus tuf monitor and I get 230 fps to 150 fps at times constantly.
Idk that was the default option. 99% of my iracing settings ive had since day 1 of playing. Thats why I give no one tips on their iracing rigs hahaha
Which GPU?
I’ve felt this before on the road side of things. I’d adjust the brake bias in the garage, come out on track & the car or ffb would feel tighter.
But I have to wonder could it have been track temp wind etc....
Track temp and wind were static due to me turning off dynamic sky
I found a glitch in the matrix. Under caution, people were creeping into the pits, leaving several car length of space to the next car in front. I found out that it is possible to overtake (under caution) on the inside between the first pit lane line and the second line (where the speed limit starts). Until someone called out iRacing and they banned me for 1 week. Today you'll get an in-game penalty if you do this. I'm fine that they fixed it, but I'm still mad about the 1-week-ban.
Need to do 10 laps each get an average without hitting the wall.
I did about 5 laps in each but cut out most of it cause it was kinda boring I was just saying the same things
EITHER HANDLES DIFFERENTLY OR IT DOESNT.SO WHICH IS IT? oops, orry 4 caps lock. and you drove different warm up lines, how can anyoe take that serious?
Also being 100% wrong could mean that it's the opposite of what everyone thought, to definitely make sure that there's no placebo we would need dozens of people at least to try several setups the same way you did (without knowing which is which) to find if there's recurrence.
If most feel that 40% setups are tighter then that would strongly mean that there's something to look for.
I'm not sure if iRacing has such a problem, but I'm pretty sure that when I spin BB, my perception of the world and driving technique change, regardless of the use of brakes. It's like I'm regulating myself with this adjustment. I am sure that psychology in racing, even if we are sitting at home, is a very interesting topic. but I don't want to know that I'm the hamster from the lab ))
and I think that's why the iR staff doesn't always respond on the forum. they're just laughing at us)
I noticed this from day one. I have only raced for 1 year. I watched your videos to get better. I started playing around with brake bias. I noticed different feels even on tracks where no brake was being used. My son, who has been on for 5 yrs, said I was nuts. I created 4 random setups on charlotte, and let my son run laps on my computer, and he didnt know what was changed. he noticed the changes right away. It does make a difference.
My guy, did you even watch the video?
@@zacknelson6630 hes suggesting the vid is wrong so he must have
Huge L
Wanna know what it is...Its coding, brake bias adjusts the balance of the car to simulate bb difference so yes it can be felt without touching the brake.
I remember reading that forums thread before I ever watched your videos. 1.5 years later, even if you're wrong, it got you noticed.
lol I thought this for a long time now, I just thought that's how race cars work because I'm dumb lol.
i was not expecting those results. interesting
Huh? You got it right, but just switched 40 and 84.? why should this be not valid? If another one would be wrong, yeah okay, but rhis is pretty much a feelable difference.
You are not wrong, the way you categorized your guesses was though. Your only reference was a neutral BB, no way for you to tell from 40% and 84% which extreme would be loose or tight. But what you did do is say test 1 was different from 2 & 3 and that was the original point, Brake bias changes handling without using brakes. You proved your point. Good job backing up your idea. Funny about the iRacing guy trying to discredit your claim by bringing up the countless times "tricks" were found and grass dipping @ Spa 24 was just around the corner.
Technically you weren't lying because lying requires knowledge of truth. You were just wrong.
For real though, you were plowing tight on setup 1, and wrecking loose on 2 and 3. While that's the opposite of your initial hypothesis, other than track conditions changing, how would you explain that away if you're iRacing? It literally looked like you went from driving it at night in September, to driving it at noon in July.
You guessed the values the wrong way around - okay - but that doesn't discount the fact that you felt an obvious difference, yes?
I think you're A LIAR!!! 😂
But seriously, I went through the same feeling when making small setup changes.
Since iracing engine is the old papyrus engine with some upgrades it carries over the brake bias effect that was well known way back when...I started with N3 and have continued since....Michigan we always went forward with BB to get into the turn without spinning
Hmmm... Interesting though. Whilst you got your guesses wrong, the point of the experiment was to show brake bias makes a difference to the handling which your very limited data does seem to suggest. You should get a bunch more drivers to do the same test and report back on what they find. If 20 drivers do it, you've got a much better dataset to work with.
I know Formula Renault 3.5 is not a popular series. But I noticed that my lap times were drastically slower until I used the DRS once, then my lap
times were faster even with it just off the rest of the session.
edit: drastically is a bit dramatic
Much respect for the humbling video, I'm with you I too feel ways about things and get it wrong or its just me thats feeling that way on things ...
My one problem with this is that you knew which set ups were being used. I'm not saying the outcome would be different, but I'd like to see what happens with someone who didn't know the brake bias were going to be different. Or, if they knew there was going to be a change in brake bias, they didn't know what the different brake biases would be.
Why don't you make a video about how people can cheat with over calibrating the steering wheel... so that way you can have a wider or bigger steering ratio before you turn the wheel 90 degrees... so you wear out your front tires less... learned this from some older guy in a race like 10 years ago
Try that out on talladega... because you said on tracks that are near wide open, so even if you use the slightest amount of brake, it still will change how the car handles and how the heat changes from front or back... so sorry, you are wrong
Didn´t you just prove the point, just the other way around? 40% being more stable than 84%?
This is in need of a round 2 I’d say. You didn’t necessarily prove anything either way, just guessed wrong. You said the first one felt tight and the last two felt loose, well the last two were the same and the first one was different. Imo that proves that there is something to it.
Funny enough there was a similar discussion in GT Sport, but also never confirmed
I believe you are correct. And it is a real thing in real life on drum brakes when you tight the rear drum brakes the shoes grab the drum and can do exactly as you say however in real life the will get hot and could catch fire.
I want to see a follow up and another test. Perhaps it's just backwards for your driving?
May have to wash your face off with that bit of mud that's on there haha!
Glad you were honest and showed the results. Keep up the great work on this channel!
I feel like you should have did away with the jump cuts so everyone can see exactly what you do when changing set ups
I feel like this is real on many games. Not sure about IR, but it makes me believe that “coasting” is relevant to braking in the code, to some extent.
Being, in many games brake bias does affect handling, but maybe the idea gets neglected and gets dragged around from sim to sim, causing a placebo.
That's actually an interesting theory; what if engine braking / resistance is what is affected by a change in brake bias?
If there's "nothing" there, then your guessing should be about 50/50 - not 100% one sided!
You're the goat make a setup for plebs video for us PLS
I'm not a setup guy unfortunately
@@DJYeeJay mate pls just help us plebs even if it's just a YT short for the algo 😭
666th like... oh no
you noticed the difference and could pinpoint it blindly, but what you believed the effect to be was reversed. we need more testing
I used to say this in our fixed league races all the time.
I'd swear the cars were looser with lower bias.
I guess I was on the same placebo 😆
That’s insane ur a real one bc I bet the iracing staff would never admit when there 😂😂🤫🤫🤫
iracing has a gun to his head i think hes being forced to say it
Iracing called me a lair
“And I took it personally”
Love the content
Idk if it works in i-racing or not BUT this was a thing for top times on console (Xbox) gaming ! Forza etc etc we use to drop brake bias to go faster and since I've been on iracing I've kinda sorta thought it has made a difference a few times but I'm still not in-tune enough with i-racing to tell for sure or not 100. based on my console experience i'd say you're not wrong in assuming this is a thing that makes a difference in handling but idk if it does on iracing. It is a thing though ! Lol
I would argue that your experiment shows that there is an effect on handling with a change in brake bias, but not the exact effect you thought it was.
This even happens in Gran Turismo I called it out some time ago
I racing dude was still wrong lol you just learned lower is better
This was an interesting theory and nice that you tested it
Huge respect for going through with the video and admitting that you are wrong, takes a man to admit their mistake.
Is there not any software that can record input over time, and then recreate it? I think it would be cool for you to make one hot lap with settings in the middle, and record your inputs. And then change the setup, and be able to hit play on those inputs.
I’m not aware of any software like that for iracing
So funny 😂
Taken in such good spirit. Top man 👍
just met you on iracing on iracing super speed way been watching for awhile but awesome to see you in game!
Nice to see you! Me and 2nd place netcoded from the lead sad 😂
Please run this experiment a few more times.
He may drive faster than you thought 😂
I think the experiment actually showed something interesting -- you _did_ correctly call out the odd element. It'd be interesting to see if you group and 84 and a 40 together in repeated experiments, as that would indicate that there really is no effect.
Credit to you for putting it up man 👌😂
This doesn't show that you're wrong. It shows that *_Matt Holden-The-iRacing-Employee is wrong_*
The only thing different between these two setups was the brake bias, which Matt unequivocally states _does not affect anything else_ and your tests clearly demonstrated that changing nothing except Brake Bias unequivocally *does* change the handling of the car.
Think "Mythbusters" - Just because you proved the inverse of your original hypothesis does not mean that your hypothesis was disproven.
Your narrow hypothesis: Fully Forward Bias Makes The Car Tight
Your broad hypothesis: Changing Brake Bias Changes Handling Even When Brakes Are Not Applied
Matt Holden takes the "Null Hypothesis" position: "In scientific research, the null hypothesis (often denoted H0) is the claim _that the effect being studied does not exist_ ."
You can do further testing (and it would be fodder for another video) by using Chicken, Popcorn, and Rice (and others like Ravioli, Klubb, Varenyky, Empanada, Hallacas, Madombi, Cilok, Siopao Asado, Shish Barak, Dushbara, Samosa, Bao, Crab Rangoon, and Gyoza) for various cars - and do longer and/or more runs in each, with different drivers, to smooth out the variability.
...Also, you can remap brake to a button so it's 0% or 100%...
My hypothesis is that changing brake bias will affect perceived handling (Drivers describe feeling of "loose on exit" or "tight on exit") and that perceived change in handling will affect the average time over a 10 lap stint (measured from lap 5-14) on a 15 lap run. This hypothesis does not claim that changing the bias one way or the other will cause loose or tight, only that changing it to either min or max will affect handling even with no brake use, and thus, indirectly affect lap times - even over a longer run.
The Null Hypothesis is twofold.
1. Changing Brake Bias between extremes will result in NO perceived feeling differences ("Loose on exit" or "Tight on exit") because the brakes are not used.
2. Changing Brake Bias between extremes will result in NO statistically significant difference¹ between lap times.
Thanks to ChatGPT, I learned that you can actually calculate whether there is a statistically significant difference between the two datasets.
To determine if the difference in average lap time between two different setups is statistically significant, you can use a statistical test, such as a paired t-test. In this case, you have two sets of lap times (Setup A and Setup B) for the same driver over a 10-lap run. Each lap time is consistent to within 0.1 seconds. Here's how you can perform the analysis:
Step 1: Calculate the average lap time for each setup.
Step 2: Calculate the difference in average lap times.
Step 3: Calculate the standard deviation of the differences.
Step 4: Perform a paired t-test.
Using the calculated difference in average lap times and the standard deviation of the differences, you can perform a paired t-test to determine if the difference is statistically significant. The t-test will provide you with a p-value.
If the p-value is less than a chosen significance level (e.g., 0.05), then you can conclude that there is a statistically significant difference in average lap times between the two setups. If the p-value is greater than the significance level, then there is not enough evidence to conclude a significant difference.
Actually, I just did a little more digging and found that you can do the inverse statistical analysis and have your hypothesis be even more clear, like
I can run a lap time *within 0.100 seconds from lap to lap consistently* and my average lap time at this car/track/weather combo over ten laps is 30.0622 seconds, THEN
I can be 95% confident (p=0.05) that changing the brake bias (only) is significant if my average lap time with the same setup (with a brake bias change only) becomes *less than 30.0523 or greater than 30.0721 seconds*
Day 0 Of asking DJ what techno song he uses during his shorts.
Also, I’ve been getting really interested into I racing after discovering your channel!
Its a youtube audio library song called New Horizons by Futuremomo
Also glad to hear you're getting into it!
@@DJYeeJay The New Horizons Cheese
i think a more reliable way to test this would be using some sort of input recorder to repeat the exact same inputs and see if the results are different
totally
I will say on the dirt side brake bias makes a HUGE difference. For example in the Dirt Street Stocks when the track is super super slick even when using no brakes even the best setup builders will max out the bias to give the car more center through exit grip. Same way you can connect the RF brake in the Dirt Latemodle to increase rear bite (Can be seen in the setup in chassis adjustments) ik in fixed officials a lot use brake bias and RF Brake connect to get grip and speed. Same way a higher brake bias + Quick downshifts in the pro 4 create a heavier brake feel.
Doesn't it prove there IS a difference but it makes it looser not tighter?
Also can't you use motec to compare your inputs to see the differences?
Idk I think it's more likely the loose and tight came from something like how i approached the corner slightly different, because for the entire time we were adamant the effects would be the other way around.
Might be worth repearing the experiment with more setups? If you get it right (or 100% wrong I suppose) That might mean something
Honesty. Love it.
Was this recorded before or after the oval refresh though? Also could it be that it affects the leg truck differently then the arca/current truck?
It was recording today, I don’t think I ran enough laps for the refresh to kick in, could be wrong
@@DJYeeJay from what I've felt and others, the refresh has affected both warmer temps and colder temps
STEVE!!!
just based off my eyes alone those two setups looked wildly different, but what do i know
I'm thinking what happened was i entered corners differently expecting things to be different
@@DJYeeJayI think you’d have to give them to a 3rd party (better yet, many 3rd parties) who doesn’t know anything about this, have them switch between them a lot and run a ton of laps.
@@DJYeeJay I agree with you, and there's just too many variables. I can easily see how this could trick people into thinking there's a difference.