Orchestration Lesson Bartok, Part 1

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  • Опубликовано: 27 дек 2024

Комментарии • 85

  • @truBador2
    @truBador2 2 года назад +3

    This is a slam dunk orchestration video. Bartok was a musical Saint.

  • @andyokus4930
    @andyokus4930 7 лет назад +39

    This is great! I've wasted 40 yrs playing rock trash noise in bars for drunken imbeciles. Composing for film and orchestra was always my goal. I actually have written 1000 themes. So, at age 60 I have my work cut out for me with so much editing, orchestrating and arranging to do. Thanks again and I will be following your teachings.

  • @agogobell28
    @agogobell28 4 года назад +44

    “The natural tendency of the ear to reject parallel fifths”..... I would rephrase that if I were you. Perhaps ears thoroughly steeped in 17th-19th century common practice European harmony would reject them, but this in no way represents the majority of people who listen to music. Medieval church music was, of course, chock-full of parallel fifths, without any adverse effects on the listeners’ ears, and modern music uses them just as often.

    • @OrchestrationOnline
      @OrchestrationOnline  3 года назад +6

      I do in fact qualify the statement about parallel 5ths in the overall phenomenon of exposed overtones starting to stand out above the music. That is the context. It is not saying that they're wrong to use in any way - just pointing out one reason why their exposed use was avoided.

    • @eyvindjr
      @eyvindjr 3 года назад

      ​@@OrchestrationOnline But how much is it a rule of academic quality which separates the good and mediocre writers, and how much is it a real harmonic problem? This "rejection" is very far from universal throughout different styles of music. "Power chords" in rock are nothing but parallel 5ths! I believe real world harmony has moved on from that and many other rules a long time ago.

    • @OrchestrationOnline
      @OrchestrationOnline  3 года назад +6

      @@eyvindjr Once again - parallel 5ths being right or wrong is not the point. I neither defend nor reject them. I merely point out how they reveal an acoustic phenomenon which some avoided as a rule in the past.

    • @vaughangarrick
      @vaughangarrick Год назад

      "if I were you" who do you think you are

    • @HGraabæk
      @HGraabæk Год назад +3

      @@vaughangarrickWhat do you mean by “who do you think you are”? The phrase “if i were you…” is a way to say that the following is only ones own opinion. He didn’t imply that he was better than anyone else, he just stated his own view.

  • @ADarkandStormyNight
    @ADarkandStormyNight 5 лет назад +34

    It would be nice to see a video devoted to these overtone relationships among various instruments. Breaking down the harmonic profile of each, and which harmonics are strong or weak on each. I am still working my way through this channel though, so perhaps that has already happened.

  • @Soytu19
    @Soytu19 5 лет назад +24

    The lovely thing about Bartók is his masterful use of counterpoint for modern music. His main principle was to conbine the three great masters of music, which he considered were: Bach for his counterpoint, Beethoven for the progressive aspect of music and Debussy for the harmonic possibilities. The Concerto for Orchestra is a nice testimony of what he wanted from music. Something Stravinsky also obtained in his early period, especially. Personally, I find Bartók the greatest composer ever, especially for his masterful use of counterpoint, a quality in him that seems to go unnoticed. He is dangerous, because once you absorb his language other composers seem pretty boring, besides he never intended to make music; he absorved the spontaneous and natural quality of folk music and stepped aside from the academic and "intentional" tradition of music. What he called "absolute music, music without program". Indeed, music with the strengh of spontaneity. Of course, ordered spontaneity, which is the reason of his masterfulness and genius. He went too soon for the incredible musical genius that he was.

    • @eyvindjr
      @eyvindjr 3 года назад +2

      "Concerto for orchestra" was also a deliberate and cynical attempt to make a crowd-pleaser, and it worked spectacularly. His other works have much deeper artistic meaning.

    • @danielhutchinson2133
      @danielhutchinson2133 3 года назад

      Yes, and he is proving to be the most influential of the 20th century composers as time goes by also. Beautiful music that is more than the sum of its parts.

  • @Kitsua
    @Kitsua 6 лет назад +4

    This movement is one of the most subtle and exquisite musical compositions of all time, in my opinion. Its degree of mastery is almost unparalleled. Thank you so much for doing this video.

  • @chunkyneptune
    @chunkyneptune 8 лет назад +7

    I have just completed a degree assignment on the Concerto for Orchestra and I didn't come anywhere near as close to explaining the Game of Pairs as eloquently as you did. Very enlightening; thank you very much! :)

  • @octaviusdelmonte9019
    @octaviusdelmonte9019 4 года назад

    Excellent analysis. It is truly more than the sum of its parts. As it has been said, basically... Imaginary folk music, this is the essence of Bartok. The concerto for orchestra itself, however, comes across as the score for a movie about an imaginary nationality, something nearly Tolkien-esque.

  • @j.lombardo
    @j.lombardo 5 лет назад +22

    The lick at 11:00

  • @Kris9kris
    @Kris9kris 8 лет назад +31

    Superb editing and great video. It's nice to see someone appreciating Bartók (a fellow compatriot of mine) - regarding him as the genius he was.

    • @OrchestrationOnline
      @OrchestrationOnline  8 лет назад +2

      Cheers, Kris!

    • @johntate6537
      @johntate6537 6 лет назад +4

      What I love about Bartok is that he was tackling the same problem of where to go after the full working out of European music's shift to greater and greater chromaticism as Schoenberg was; but unlike Schoenberg, Bartok found the musical solution, not the mathematical one.

  • @MrInterestingthings
    @MrInterestingthings 8 лет назад +7

    Wow! This is a whole new dimension for me .Resonances and the math and real world effects of harmony. Why is this so rarely ever referenced or even mentioned in harmony manuals or where it is most relevant...orchestration manuals. I haven't gotten through the Adler but I have as many as 7 or 8 orchestration manuals from last 2 centuries. Maybe I was lazy and overlooked this vital information.Once again thankyou Mr.T for the enlightenment and again overturning a new leaf . You mentioned these things before in talking bout Mme .Boulanger I hoped it wasn't necessary - now I'm seeing it is as practical as one can imagine and necessary to be aware of!!!

    • @OrchestrationOnline
      @OrchestrationOnline  8 лет назад +7

      Hi John! I doubt you would have read this in manuals, but there are some books here and there that deal with textures that may go into it a bit as well. But don't blame manuals or yourself for being lazy. Every great composer is their own universe - we each can only comprehend so much in the time we've got.

  • @richardboyer210
    @richardboyer210 7 лет назад

    I 'am been playing guitar for to long and not at all a virtuoso but what fun I am now relearning music with you Thank you

  • @ilkinond
    @ilkinond 7 лет назад

    It's amazing to read some of the comments below about the scarcity or extremely technical nature of existing information on partials and how they interact, and then reflect on the fact that Bartok wrote this music 75 years ago. He probably had nothing more to reference than his own very great musicality.

    • @OrchestrationOnline
      @OrchestrationOnline  7 лет назад +1

      Well, in truth, all it takes is A. a knowledge of the harmonic series and B. a good ear for listening to overtones and then extrapolating relationships. Being a terrific composer and using that information is what makes all the difference, however technical the ramifications.

  • @Flexyhandz
    @Flexyhandz 7 лет назад +52

    Do you plan on making a video on Prokofiev? He's by far the most fascinating composer to me and I'd love to see him explained.

    •  5 лет назад

      Another helluva orchestrator

  • @jfbmusic
    @jfbmusic 7 лет назад

    Brilliant. Thank you, Thomas. I love those excursions.

  • @janpaulwolff9310
    @janpaulwolff9310 8 лет назад +7

    Would be lovely if you would make a video on Mahlers 2nd symphony´s finale!

  • @josephcowan6779
    @josephcowan6779 8 лет назад

    That was amazing! I was just listening to this piece today coincidentally. I had no idea the amount of thought each harmonic combination warranted.

  • @JRH1954
    @JRH1954 8 лет назад +3

    Thank you so much Thomas! I'll have to dig a little deeper to fully understand the overtone resonances but I am here to learn. Bartok was such a great master! I think 20th Century overall was such a rich, peak period of music. It seems hard to fathom what might develop in the current century. I still do not feel like the accomplishments of the past 120 years have been fully digested yet.

    • @gastonmazzei8087
      @gastonmazzei8087 7 лет назад

      Boy for "not fully digested" I would extend the claim to the baroque only to include Mr. Bach.

  • @Tyrell_Corp2019
    @Tyrell_Corp2019 2 года назад

    Love playing with harmonics and the overtone series? This is why some of us love synthesizers. The possibilities between harmonics and altered tuning systems including micro-tonal are just delicious for slipping between the cracks of the mundane diatonic world. (Those with perfect pitch, you have been warned 😜)

  • @darb.musica
    @darb.musica 3 года назад

    Great analysis, thank you!

  • @ivyssauro123
    @ivyssauro123 5 лет назад +2

    Amazing! thanks for this video

  • @oceancheung6139
    @oceancheung6139 5 лет назад

    You inspired me to listen to more Bartok👍🏻

    •  5 лет назад

      Bluebeards Castle is woefully underplayed imo

  • @MusicalInquisit
    @MusicalInquisit 8 лет назад +1

    I wish I knew this when I was scoring my woodwind duo-piano composition because, in reality, I really lost my sense of pace when I tried to compose "Pickles in the Jar." Ever since I covered many topics, I just so happened to start to lose my creative stamina. Anyways, I'm going to sip on some green tea and take a short snooze. As always, great job with the video, and great job with the editing.
    Musical Inquisitor.

  • @stevehinnenkamp5625
    @stevehinnenkamp5625 8 лет назад +10

    Sensational analysis, thank you.
    But what about the great theme that is so captivating?
    Mr. Bartok depicts a couple journeying thru uncharted territories.
    Their obstinate reservation is seductively convinced by the magical tune which they agree to succumb.
    You are a master for shedding light on a masterpiece!
    Thank you!

    • @robin-hr9up
      @robin-hr9up 7 лет назад +1

      + Steve Hinnenkamp Bartok spent his early career listening to and transcribing folk music not only from his native Hungary, but the surrounding countries, and even further afield. This folk element informs and strengthens his music, rather like Vaughan Williams and English folk music. He also employed mathematical sequences such as the Fibonacci Sequence - a similar approach used by Olivier Messaien. It is the folk element which ensures its ability to communicate effectively. There is also the incalculable effect of genius.

  • @djrbfmbfm-woa
    @djrbfmbfm-woa 7 лет назад

    thx thomas. i also like the other of these more relaxed movements. learning a lot here...........j.

  • @Aoleon
    @Aoleon 5 лет назад +1

    Brilliant as usual! And since this video focuses primarily on his choice of intervals and pitch relationships, I think its also important to note how the rhythmic relationships of the paired solo lines and the accompanying strings keeps these sonorities interesting, keeps the piece moving forward, and gives the piece its playful personality. Similar to how medicine is sugar coated, Bartok sugar coats his intervalic lines with very playful rhythms without which these lines would lose their taste and become bland and uninteresting to the ear.

  • @halasimov1362
    @halasimov1362 3 года назад

    This is amazing stuff!!!

  • @sebastianzaczek
    @sebastianzaczek 6 лет назад +3

    Great Video! You mentioned the Orchestration 103 Course at the beginning, but i can't find the Videos here on RUclips... Are the Videos only available on Patreon or why can't i find them? If the Videos are available on RUclips, could you please send me the Links to the Videos?

  • @francescodifilippo613
    @francescodifilippo613 3 года назад

    Hi , i love Bartok very much! Can you make an harmonic analysis of THE MIRACOLOUS MANDARIN?

  • @pervycreeper
    @pervycreeper 8 лет назад +1

    Great video! Very interesting, and the explanations were really clear. Is there a list of the spectrums of common orchestral instruments expressed in musical notation out there anywhere?

  • @soyoltoi
    @soyoltoi 6 лет назад +2

    Do you have any resources you can recommend on these resonances of particular instruments? It sounds very interesting and not something I've thought a lot about. Thank you for your hard work!

  • @frenchmusictheorist
    @frenchmusictheorist 4 года назад

    Small mistake at 9:20. It's a minor third, not a minor second at the oboes... But anyways, very interesting analysis!

  • @AntKneeLeafEllipse
    @AntKneeLeafEllipse 6 лет назад +1

    Love this. Is there any further reading you can recommend for understanding the way certain instruments resonate certain partials? It's my first time really hearing about the concept and I would love to learn more.

  • @danielperes9309
    @danielperes9309 3 года назад

    Hello, Im not sure if I understood, what bartok explores in terms of playing with harmonics is inherent to the sound itself ? Or is it something specific to those specific instruments ?

    • @OrchestrationOnline
      @OrchestrationOnline  3 года назад +1

      Bartók is taking advantage of each instruments' strong overtones. Flutes, oboes, bassoons, and brass all have one overall overtone scheme; while clarinets have another. However, what differentiates the former instruments is which of those overtones is stronger in what way. Game of Pair explores how those stronger overtones complement one another in (mostly) parallel intervals.

  • @hedla1244
    @hedla1244 7 лет назад +4

    Is there an orchestration textbook that deals with timbre of each instrument with respect to the overtone series? I think it will help me a lot when experimenting with new sound combinations. Thanks!

  • @alabi-michaelakande1210
    @alabi-michaelakande1210 7 лет назад +1

    Could you do one of these on some of the late Beethoven Quartets? As always, very helpful!

  • @divisix024
    @divisix024 4 года назад

    Why does the trumpe5m2/M2 sound like they’re not locked in?

  • @Nathan-wm8yb
    @Nathan-wm8yb 6 лет назад

    What do you mean by "the natural tendency of the ear to reject parallel fifths"? I was taught that the reason for avoiding parallel fifths in common practice period music was to avoid blending of voices, as to keep each voice audible at all times, and not because they sound bad.

    • @OrchestrationOnline
      @OrchestrationOnline  6 лет назад +1

      Notice the precise use of my language: "the natural tendency of the ear." I didn't say there was no other theoretical reason. It's just that perfect intervals have unusually pronounced overtones that become very obvious in parallel motion.

  • @mikechad27
    @mikechad27 2 месяца назад

    where do you get these overtone series charts?

    • @OrchestrationOnline
      @OrchestrationOnline  2 месяца назад

      I use both my ear and the data from spectrum diagrams to notate out the overtones in Sibelius. You can use Audacity to generate such diagrams, it's fairly simple.

  • @tesahe4035
    @tesahe4035 7 лет назад

    Hello! Here's a scoring question: when a score has 3 trumpets, should you score them 1/2 and 3 or 1 and 2/3? Which trumpets share the staff?

    • @OrchestrationOnline
      @OrchestrationOnline  7 лет назад

      Hi Tesa! All three trumpets may share the same staff if the parts aren't too hard to score. Third trumpet is traditionally the one to score on a separate staff if needed.

    • @tesahe4035
      @tesahe4035 7 лет назад

      Okay, thanks!

  • @nicholas72611
    @nicholas72611 7 лет назад

    That m7 clarinet thing is godly

  • @goingfortheone1
    @goingfortheone1 8 лет назад

    Mr. Goss, do you have any resources or recommendations of literature on where I could find information on which partials are dominant in which instruments? I'm sure, now with the already historic style of spectral music, that spectral analysis have been done regarding pretty much all instruments and techniques, but is it available anywhere to review?

    • @OrchestrationOnline
      @OrchestrationOnline  8 лет назад +1

      A very good question. Of course, you can just take any sound from a plugin and play it through an analyser and find out for yourself. Some resources do exist - but they tend to be very technical and mathematical.

  • @ShorkGamer
    @ShorkGamer 8 лет назад +1

    Finally!

  • @emanuel_soundtrack
    @emanuel_soundtrack 7 лет назад

    I did not understand the point about the partials, Mr. Goss. There is always a "special relation" ... it seems to be. The thought about relating "hidden partials" is indeed almost interessant. I pursue that but just with intuition, because the complexity here is not with easy possible to conceive, is not true?

    • @OrchestrationOnline
      @OrchestrationOnline  7 лет назад +1

      I think you're missing the point that by restricting the instruments into certain parallel relationships, the overtones become more clearly underlined. Since common practice harmony largely avoids this, our ears often miss the peculiar qualities of certain combinations. All I've done here is show what Bartok is trying to do.

  • @patrickbecker4473
    @patrickbecker4473 6 лет назад

    To be honest, I wouldn't say that Bartók was a superb orchestrator, if so, then by intuition, since the documents in his archive give us the hint, that he orchestrated quite mechanically and without a great deal of thinking.​

    • @OrchestrationOnline
      @OrchestrationOnline  6 лет назад

      I respectfully disagree. This entire video and its second part refutes that claim.

    • @patrickbecker4473
      @patrickbecker4473 6 лет назад

      OrchestrationOnline Yes, I don't doubt that Bartok is a genius of orchestration here, especially considering your arguments on the specifities of each instrument, and how the trumpets Form a distinctive contrast (and/or rather transition section).
      Yet, throughout his entire work, the sources and materials like sketches and strongly suggest that he didn't waste his time on these things.

    • @patrickbecker4473
      @patrickbecker4473 6 лет назад

      But anyway, just today I saw this score reduction of Bartók's concerto: www.universaledition.com/composers-and-works/bela-bartok-38/works/concerto-for-orchestra-25229

  • @EllieMcEla
    @EllieMcEla 8 лет назад +5

    The tempo marking 74 is actually a misprint - not the other way around... great video though.

    • @OrchestrationOnline
      @OrchestrationOnline  8 лет назад +4

      Thanks much for the ups! :) I think 74 is a much nicer tempo myself - I've heard 94 and much elegance is lost.

  • @johnp.w.hudson7192
    @johnp.w.hudson7192 3 года назад

    In my orchestration, (concert band), I find the parallel 5th (and their inversion, perfect 4ths), are to be avoided when writing melodic music with traditional harmony. They are, to my ear, unpleasant in that particular context. Elsewhere, they’re desirable - the traditional Christmas Carol “Come they told me, pa-rum-pa-pum-pum” is just such an example.

  • @johnappleseed8369
    @johnappleseed8369 8 лет назад

    Just in time :)

  • @kthybrown007
    @kthybrown007 4 года назад

    Hello. I loved your video overall. However, the discussion about overtones in the woodwind instruments I don't think I agree with. I play clarinet(s), oboe, English Horn, saxophones, and Bassoon well enough to play in community groups and I compose and arrange. When you play the primary octave of any of these instruments, your fingering is resetting the length of the instrument by opening holes, thus you are playing the fundamental. (a new one for each note) There is usually a register key which moves that fingering or near fingering (thus length of tube) up to a different harmonic, but after that the higher pitches have less and less to do with which fundamental they are related to. Showing "partials" (they are truly nothing like brass instrument partials) that have common tones far, far above the range of the instrument seems far-fetched or maybe academic. Were you looking to explain why some intervals have one character and others a different one? Mysteries of the ages.... I love the Bartok..

    • @OrchestrationOnline
      @OrchestrationOnline  4 года назад

      Hi Kathy! I know it well, having taught several in-depth courses on woodwind orchestration. I think you are misunderstanding my thesis, with respect. Overblowing has nothing to do with it. Rather, it is the overtones that each instrument's tone favours. The strong partials sounding above tend to meet and reinforce each other in certain intervals. That is the game that Bartók is playing here. That is not far-fetched at all, but easy to show through comparisons of spectral analysis between tones, and a fundamental part of the character of each instrument's tone.

  • @fingerhorn4
    @fingerhorn4 3 года назад +2

    I doubt whether Bartok gave more than a second of his productive life obsessing about the ramifications of obscure harmonics in the way you describe. This is a good example of musicological theory making exaggerated assumptions about a composer's intentions.

    • @OrchestrationOnline
      @OrchestrationOnline  3 года назад +1

      Bartók scored it that way. I would not want to be the one who claimed that he didn't think about the effect of what he was doing, or would discourage further analysis. His orchestration is so well-thought-out and masterful in its command of even the subtlest kind of textures that it's hard to imagine he did NOT consider the effect of parallel harmonies, particularly in exposed wind harmonies - even instinctually.

  • @markpmar0356
    @markpmar0356 7 лет назад +1

    There's quite a bit of out-of-tune playing by the orchestra used in this video. Noticeably out of tune, by the way.

  • @robloxking5634
    @robloxking5634 6 лет назад

    WAAW

  • @TheApostleofRock
    @TheApostleofRock 5 лет назад

    Wow, my ear hardly picked up on anything, although the flutes did have a very interesting color