Upon hearing the, "Mother Goose Suite" many years ago I knew in my own heart that no one could orchestrate like Ravel. It's almost other worldly. Barely possible to thank you enough Thomas for all you do.
This channel and video is wonderful. Definitely subscribing. What a wonderful service you are doing for the music community. The orchestration of Ravel is seriously second to none, so it's nice to hear a more in-depth understanding as to why!
Still my favourite composer. You can see he understands the music on most fundamental level when he makes orchestral pieces for piano and the other way around. Responsible for some of the best arrangements ever
Never has the orchestration of a piece been so clearly explained (and I have watched all the Bernstein videos). I understand better than I ever thought I would. Thank you Thomas
Well the audience to nearly all of Lenny's videos are for children. Apart for those Harvard talks, where proper musical analysis isn't the point, he takes a linguistic approach to music. So you shouldn't really expect Lenny to talk about all of this more advanced harmony
His work here is as important as the music .it is an influence guiding who knows how many thousands. I think he is mispronouncing Sordes if it is a French name ;he is not if it is both Franco-Spanish. This is truly an amazing score !
In a TV documentary decades ago about Arthur Rubenstein, at one point the pianist tells about a time he asked Ravel how he happened to become such a great orchestrator. Ravel answered "Saint-Saéns' Third Piano Concerto: the orchestration in that piece is fantastic!"
This is a massive video. Outstanding. If only I had had this 20 years ago. Excellent explanation, and the color visuals for guidance are worth more than a gazillion words.
Dear Thomas, just to say thank you for your brilliant content that you give to the composer/orchestrator community. This is giving me and many others so much motivation to dive deeper into orchestration and in this case in the understanding of Ravel's genius. I am passionate about all of your videos and orchestration tipps you share, thank you!
Thanks for the great video, as usual. As a french I must admit, it took me a while to understand you were actually talking of "Une barque sur l'ocean" (as the english prononciation of the title ("oune bac sou loucy âne") was absolutely incomprehensible to me. Anyway, no big deal, the content of the discussion is what matters and it is great.
The thousands of questions I have asked about Ravel's music and orchestration have been answered in 18 just minutes.I feel Like I am finally rising from a bottomless pit, and there is much more glow and warmth now.
I don't think Ravel learned orchestration from debussy. He thought Debussy was a terrible orchestrator. He said "I would orchestrate 'la mer' if I had the time".
Did Ravel learn anything from Debussy, or was he just inspired somewhat? To me Debussy has always been an "impressionist," always orchestrating a nebulous cloud of sound but not getting much beyond that. Ravel, on the other hand, can do just as nebulous and cloudy a style as Debussy does, but Ravel can go from there directly to a sharp, clear-edged sound that is very definite. If you look at, for example, Ravel's "La Valse" you see where he did this deliberately. Starting off in a very vague way and then sharpening his view to a clear apotheosis of the waltz form that captures the details of a night in Vienna or similar setting, that would do Strauss proud.
I think if one looks at date of Debussys and Ravels dates of composition one realizes the more famous composer was learning from Ravel.like Shostakovich telling the world in his letters to Galina Ustvolskaya he was learning from her! Also who can say who is more famous.Silly for me to query who hasn't heard Bolero or Claire de la lune or la met or the many borrowings heard everyday by other composers .
You are a fantastic, knowledgeable, and concise teacher. A pure and good pleasure to hear your words, they are really packed with information. And..you have a pleasing voice as well. I look very much forward to hearing and seeing more of your lessons. My Brutish Cadenza, Wesley Lawrence Curry II
Oh my gosh this has just made my Friday night!! Thank you thank you thank you, Thomas. I'm still near the beginning of my orchestration educational path/composition & orchestration career, but with everything one of your videos you open up a whole new world. To find this wonderful community that loves to talk, share and analyse; my brain is lit up and I'm truly inspired and in awe - in awe of both Ravel and yourself. It's a beautiful thing you are giving to the orchestration community. I cannot wait for more!!! Happy weekend!
I love your videos! They are so helpful not just in orchestrating, but in appreciating the brilliance of various orchestrators and how they work creatively to translate a musical essence to different genres. It would be nice if in showing this translation you gave an A-B comparison so we can hear the difference before going into the analysis of it. Just a suggestion. Great work, and thank you!
Thankyou for your labors here. I find that stopping occasionally, contemplating your use of vocabulary helps me to grasp a fair percentage of what you're conveying. If you ever take analysis by request, I would have a number of composers' orchestral pieces I'd like to hear you give some insight into - ie. Eduard Tubin, Arnold Bax, Kurt Atterburg.
Learning much here.I would have imagined this as an smallensembleI piece(perhaps less performances when one does that;takes courage to do what Ravel does ) I have always been afraid and have never give intervalled tremolos to low bass strings unless I want an indefinite type of business.im thinking even though I've played in orchestras unless one is manning the baton and working closely with a large group as Goss and Ravel both have done ,one doesn't truly know. Wow! I'd like to see if he ever changed orchestrations after hearing live music. Iplay this on piano could never imagine turning it into an orchestral score.Always amazed ,disenchanted and surprised and fascinated when I hear versions of gaspard orchestrated.Everything gets reimagined I'm happy for that.i will research to see the lapse in time between piano Miroirs and orchestration.
Okay. Wonderful video, by the way. Looking forward to the next part. If you don't mind, what software do you use to animate your score analyses (i.e. the highlighting)?
How effective would you say that those double bass harmonics are? It's certainly a fascinating technique on paper, but I can't really pick out the sound in the recording (perhaps because they're blending well, but in that case is it even worth the effort if a pad of woodwinds and horns will do?)
I think the notes in the piano original are supposed to be played in the same rhythm as the horn triplet in the measure before rehearsal 2. I note that in the piano version, that bar has a double time signature of 2/4 and 6/8, and that the metric value of the right hand, taken literally, totals to five 8th notes. Surely the two beam groups in the left hand are supposed to correspond to the measure's two beats, so that the first two 8ths worth of time in the right hand are one beat-notated as if in 2/4-and the last three are the other-notated as if in 6/8. I have read research (for example, www.circb.info/sites/default/files/The_Rise_and_Fall_EN.pdf ) stating that bass clarinets in A did exist in Ravel's time, so it might be unfair to call other composers' scoring for it "a mistake." Indeed, Ravel himself called for it in La Valse, Concerto for the Left Hand, and L'Enfant et les Sortilèges. I suppose it would fair to argue that *nowadays* it would be a mistake to score for a bass in A under almost all circumstances; Stephen Fox does make them ( www.sfoxclarinets.com/Bass_Clar.html ), so perhaps if one is writing for a specific performer who has one... Don't mind the nitpicking, though. It's an excellent video as usual!
Hi Alex! There may have been one or two A bass clarinets in Russia, maybe the same as Central Europe - but I've never seen proof that one was extant or at least readily available in France at Ravel's time. And certainly we can see that an A part would be so convenient for the part, and yet Ravel scores for a Bb model. From what I understand, composers scored for the A with the expectation that it would be played by a Bb model - hence the standard low Eb that could cover the hypothetical A model's low written E - and they didn't worry about it that much. Perhaps clarinetists were pointing out that it was time to stop doing that, and Ravel, ever mindful with his craft, complied. As to the metre of the piece, I will be covering that, along with changes and extensions to bars in the next lesson.
Selmer made at least 6 A Bass Clarinets. Some of which are still in use today. I know that the Met Opera has one as well as one player in Michigan (and maybe one in Toronto).
Mahler, Wagner, Schoenberg, and Rachmaninoff - just to name four off the top of my head, wrote parts for both A and Bb bass clarinets. They actually had a reasons to chose the instrument in A from time to time - the use of sharp keys and the need of the low concert C#, a note which wasn't originally available on the Bb bass clarinet. Once Boehm began to manufacture Bb instruments with a concert C# extension, there was no longer a reason to use the A instrument and it dropped out. But the instrument did exist, and such experienced orchestrators (and Mahler was a conductor) would hardly have written for a non-existent instrument. There would have been no purpose in that. To my knowledge, however, Ravel never used the Bass Clarinet in A, even when writing music in sharp keys. Neither did Debussy, although Debussy hardly ever scored for the bass clarinet at all (only Jeux comes to mind). That suggests that the Bass Clar. in A was not available in Paris at the turn of the century but was common in central Europe - at least around the turn of the century.
One thing I forgot to mention - the exception. Ravel DID use an A bass clarinet. At least once - and that was as is mentioned in the video, the Rhapsodie Espagnole. But he only uses it in the third movement - when the key of the piece is in 3 sharps. The rest of the piece uses a Bb instrument. He also, by the way uses another instrument no longer in use, the sarrusophone standing in for a contrabassoon. He also had a fondness for the lutheal, which he used twice Tzigane in its original form, and the opera L'Enfant et les Sortileges. Only one of those instruments now exists but recordings of those pieces using them are available.
There is a very good reason why a composer would score for an A bass clarinet even if one wasn't available - and that is because they would have seen it in another composer's score, and also just for the convenience of scoring all the clarinets in A. I have commented on the use of the A bass cl and also the sarrusophone in other lessons.
This was way way over my head, I can see that early music study is priceless if you wan to do something like this. I’m 50 years too late and too dumb to understand this stuff. These people are unnatural and this is something not easily learned.
Great video, thank you. Ravel's orchestration is all the time very complex, and the colors follow each other in a very rapid succession. So, it's all the time very delicate, almost sweet, but pure colors (for example from the brass section) are missing. This means that his ocean lacks some rawness and power. I guess this is the Aristocratic French Ocean...
Haha, I never liked this piece, found it boring to hear, until I watch this video. Now I have learned how to taste it, through all the details. Same phenomenum used to happen with Stravinsky (firebird etc.), I just started to like those pieces after rehearsing with orchestra, where we understand each passage/instrument part, so it is better for our comprehension.
The man was truly a master of orchestration. The colors he paints with the orchestra is something else
Upon hearing the, "Mother Goose Suite" many years ago I knew in my own heart that no one could orchestrate like Ravel. It's almost other worldly. Barely possible to thank you enough Thomas for all you do.
This channel and video is wonderful. Definitely subscribing. What a wonderful service you are doing for the music community. The orchestration of Ravel is seriously second to none, so it's nice to hear a more in-depth understanding as to why!
How fortunate that right after I discovered your channel, you made a video on my favorite composer!
Exact same thing for me!
Still my favourite composer. You can see he understands the music on most fundamental level when he makes orchestral pieces for piano and the other way around. Responsible for some of the best arrangements ever
What an overwhelming lesson. it saddens me I do not have a stronger grasp of this, but gladdens me I have a resource to try and improve.
Never has the orchestration of a piece been so clearly explained (and I have watched all the Bernstein videos). I understand better than I ever thought I would. Thank you Thomas
That is a book cover quote if I ever read one! Thanks so much, Cliff, I really appreciate your kind words.
Well the audience to nearly all of Lenny's videos are for children. Apart for those Harvard talks, where proper musical analysis isn't the point, he takes a linguistic approach to music. So you shouldn't really expect Lenny to talk about all of this more advanced harmony
That is so true. I feel enlightened like never before on Ravel.
If you're interested in orchestration on any level, it would be foolish not to check out all videos by Orchestration Online.
You're so kind, Pessi! Thanks.
Thomas have some of the best analysis I've seen anywhere. Thanks for all your hard work. It is truly appreciated. Cheers.
His work here is as important as the music .it is an influence guiding who knows how many thousands. I think he is mispronouncing Sordes if it is a French name ;he is not if it is both Franco-Spanish. This is truly an amazing score !
I'm still in disbelief that in 7 seconds I can watch THIS on a phone at the DMV... life is good B-)
Bronson, that's such a great comment! Orchestration is slaying boredom at the DMV.
Did Patty or Selma renew your licence for you?
Occasionally the Internet glows with some real quality... Thank you!
Very kind of you to say. I appreciate that very much.
Outstanding and informative. You can really see where Bernard Herrmann drew influence from Ravel.
In a TV documentary decades ago about Arthur Rubenstein, at one point the pianist tells about a time he asked Ravel how he happened to become such a great orchestrator. Ravel answered "Saint-Saéns' Third Piano Concerto: the orchestration in that piece is fantastic!"
This is a massive video. Outstanding. If only I had had this 20 years ago.
Excellent explanation, and the color visuals for guidance are worth more than a gazillion words.
Excellent observations and analyses. The depth of discussion and explanation is inspiring. Thank you.
Geez. Ravel's such a genius.
Dear Thomas, just to say thank you for your brilliant content that you give to the composer/orchestrator community. This is giving me and many others so much motivation to dive deeper into orchestration and in this case in the understanding of Ravel's genius. I am passionate about all of your videos and orchestration tipps you share, thank you!
Wonderful Lesson from Ravel and Goss
Thanks for the great video, as usual. As a french I must admit, it took me a while to understand you were actually talking of "Une barque sur l'ocean" (as the english prononciation of the title ("oune bac sou loucy âne") was absolutely incomprehensible to me. Anyway, no big deal, the content of the discussion is what matters and it is great.
That is why this is Orchestration Online, and not Pronunciation Online! 😆 Thanks for your kind comment! I'm glad you enjoyed the video.
As an aspiring producer of electronic and soul music, Ravel is my biggest inspiration. If we applied this lessons to pop music... wow
Ravel's work is amazing, thank you for covering it!
I am so amazed by Ravel and his abilities. I have to wonder how many of his ideas were developed by inspiration versus perspiration.
Thank you very much for including this wonderful music into your thorough and wise analysis. Your explanations are deeply inspiring. :)
Thank you for the information Thomas! I love this piece and now understanding the orchestration behind it it's really interesting.
The thousands of questions I have asked about Ravel's music and orchestration have been answered in 18 just minutes.I feel Like I am finally rising from a bottomless pit, and there is much more glow and warmth now.
Amazingly deep presentation of a masterpiece. Great stuff, Thomas.
Ravel is my favorite composer with such color in his orchestrations which he learned a lot from Debussy
But Ravel is brilliant, way more than Deb.
I don't think Ravel learned orchestration from debussy. He thought Debussy was a terrible orchestrator. He said "I would orchestrate 'la mer' if I had the time".
Did Ravel learn anything from Debussy, or was he just inspired somewhat? To me Debussy has always been an "impressionist," always orchestrating a nebulous cloud of sound but not getting much beyond that. Ravel, on the other hand, can do just as nebulous and cloudy a style as Debussy does, but Ravel can go from there directly to a sharp, clear-edged sound that is very definite. If you look at, for example, Ravel's "La Valse" you see where he did this deliberately. Starting off in a very vague way and then sharpening his view to a clear apotheosis of the waltz form that captures the details of a night in Vienna or similar setting, that would do Strauss proud.
I think if one looks at date of Debussys and Ravels dates of composition one realizes the more famous composer was learning from Ravel.like Shostakovich telling the world in his letters to Galina Ustvolskaya he was learning from her! Also who can say who is more famous.Silly for me to query who hasn't heard Bolero or Claire de la lune or la met or the many borrowings heard everyday by other composers .
So glad I found your channel, can’t afford school so teaching myself. Thank you!
You are a fantastic, knowledgeable, and concise teacher. A pure and good pleasure to hear your words, they are really packed with information. And..you have a pleasing voice as well. I look very much forward to hearing and seeing more of your lessons. My Brutish Cadenza, Wesley Lawrence Curry II
The explanation is so beautiful, yet I feel like I have to take at least 20 Minutes for every 2 sentences to fully understand :D great work!
This is a wonderful set if videos! Happy to subscribe.
Thank you for make those videos about my favorite french composer.
Oh my gosh this has just made my Friday night!! Thank you thank you thank you, Thomas. I'm still near the beginning of my orchestration educational path/composition & orchestration career, but with everything one of your videos you open up a whole new world. To find this wonderful community that loves to talk, share and analyse; my brain is lit up and I'm truly inspired and in awe - in awe of both Ravel and yourself. It's a beautiful thing you are giving to the orchestration community. I cannot wait for more!!! Happy weekend!
Thank you for making this, Ravel is my favourite orchestrator and this teaches me a lot of things I didn't know about his technique.
I love your videos! They are so helpful not just in orchestrating, but in appreciating the brilliance of various orchestrators and how they work creatively to translate a musical essence to different genres. It would be nice if in showing this translation you gave an A-B comparison so we can hear the difference before going into the analysis of it. Just a suggestion. Great work, and thank you!
Excellent in every way! Thank you!
16:58 I love going out of key? Makes it feel like a "new discovery" motive you hear a lot in SciFi movie scores.
Thank you. All i can say to you and this guy named Maurice.
62/84 time signature... just great
A truly fantastic video!!
Thank you so much for putting up such a detailed analysis. :)
Thanks Thomas excellent job
Wonderful lesson! Thank you so much!
Thank you!
Thankyou for your labors here. I find that stopping occasionally, contemplating your use of vocabulary helps me to grasp a fair percentage of what you're conveying. If you ever take analysis by request, I would have a number of composers' orchestral pieces I'd like to hear you give some insight into - ie. Eduard Tubin, Arnold Bax, Kurt Atterburg.
Good suggestions!
beautiful lesson!
Thank you for these great lessons in orchestration. So much to explore in the Impressionism Movement. Totally different level from Debussy.
This is just terrific. TY.
Beautifully done!
Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge .. this is an amazing find!
Amazing! Lesson
Learning much here.I would have imagined this as an smallensembleI piece(perhaps less performances when one does that;takes courage to do what Ravel does ) I have always been afraid and have never give intervalled tremolos to low bass strings unless I want an indefinite type of business.im thinking even though I've played in orchestras unless one is manning the baton and working closely with a large group as Goss and Ravel both have done ,one doesn't truly know. Wow! I'd like to see if he ever changed orchestrations after hearing live music. Iplay this on piano could never imagine turning it into an orchestral score.Always amazed ,disenchanted and surprised and fascinated when I hear versions of gaspard orchestrated.Everything gets reimagined I'm happy for that.i will research to see the lapse in time between piano Miroirs and orchestration.
Congratulations. Your videos are very very good and deep in orchestral education contents! Advise: put subtittles.
Once more, Thank's You!
fantastic channel... thanks a lot!
Can't be believe it! Great!
A great and instructive video!
Have you done an analysis video of daphnis and chloe?
I've discussed the high oboe solo in one of my tips, but I haven't done an orchestration analysis - yet.
Okay. Wonderful video, by the way. Looking forward to the next part. If you don't mind, what software do you use to animate your score analyses (i.e. the highlighting)?
I use Screenflow for my video editor and Pixelmator for my images. Slow fades between screens resemble animation, but they're just video editing.
In the score it says CNIVRER. Is this a misspelling? Should it be cuivrer?
Look again. It's the blotting of the ink in the engraving, not a misspelling.
Great video Thomas!
How effective would you say that those double bass harmonics are? It's certainly a fascinating technique on paper, but I can't really pick out the sound in the recording (perhaps because they're blending well, but in that case is it even worth the effort if a pad of woodwinds and horns will do?)
I can hear them. Keep in mind that the clarinet playing that A wasn't all that distinct either - but take it away and there would be a difference.
great point, I can't hear them either
*_mo·tif_* (/mōˈtēf/) - a decorative design or pattern.
Interesting that you feel the need to give ravel more time. He deserves it
I think the notes in the piano original are supposed to be played in the same rhythm as the horn triplet in the measure before rehearsal 2. I note that in the piano version, that bar has a double time signature of 2/4 and 6/8, and that the metric value of the right hand, taken literally, totals to five 8th notes. Surely the two beam groups in the left hand are supposed to correspond to the measure's two beats, so that the first two 8ths worth of time in the right hand are one beat-notated as if in 2/4-and the last three are the other-notated as if in 6/8.
I have read research (for example, www.circb.info/sites/default/files/The_Rise_and_Fall_EN.pdf ) stating that bass clarinets in A did exist in Ravel's time, so it might be unfair to call other composers' scoring for it "a mistake." Indeed, Ravel himself called for it in La Valse, Concerto for the Left Hand, and L'Enfant et les Sortilèges. I suppose it would fair to argue that *nowadays* it would be a mistake to score for a bass in A under almost all circumstances; Stephen Fox does make them ( www.sfoxclarinets.com/Bass_Clar.html ), so perhaps if one is writing for a specific performer who has one...
Don't mind the nitpicking, though. It's an excellent video as usual!
Hi Alex! There may have been one or two A bass clarinets in Russia, maybe the same as Central Europe - but I've never seen proof that one was extant or at least readily available in France at Ravel's time. And certainly we can see that an A part would be so convenient for the part, and yet Ravel scores for a Bb model. From what I understand, composers scored for the A with the expectation that it would be played by a Bb model - hence the standard low Eb that could cover the hypothetical A model's low written E - and they didn't worry about it that much. Perhaps clarinetists were pointing out that it was time to stop doing that, and Ravel, ever mindful with his craft, complied.
As to the metre of the piece, I will be covering that, along with changes and extensions to bars in the next lesson.
Selmer made at least 6 A Bass Clarinets. Some of which are still in use today. I know that the Met Opera has one as well as one player in Michigan (and maybe one in Toronto).
Mahler, Wagner, Schoenberg, and Rachmaninoff - just to name four off the top of my head, wrote parts for both A and Bb bass clarinets. They actually had a reasons to chose the instrument in A from time to time - the use of sharp keys and the need of the low concert C#, a note which wasn't originally available on the Bb bass clarinet. Once Boehm began to manufacture Bb instruments with a concert C# extension, there was no longer a reason to use the A instrument and it dropped out. But the instrument did exist, and such experienced orchestrators (and Mahler was a conductor) would hardly have written for a non-existent instrument. There would have been no purpose in that. To my knowledge, however, Ravel never used the Bass Clarinet in A, even when writing music in sharp keys. Neither did Debussy, although Debussy hardly ever scored for the bass clarinet at all (only Jeux comes to mind). That suggests that the Bass Clar. in A was not available in Paris at the turn of the century but was common in central Europe - at least around the turn of the century.
One thing I forgot to mention - the exception. Ravel DID use an A bass clarinet. At least once - and that was as is mentioned in the video, the Rhapsodie Espagnole. But he only uses it in the third movement - when the key of the piece is in 3 sharps. The rest of the piece uses a Bb instrument. He also, by the way uses another instrument no longer in use, the sarrusophone standing in for a contrabassoon. He also had a fondness for the lutheal, which he used twice Tzigane in its original form, and the opera L'Enfant et les Sortileges. Only one of those instruments now exists but recordings of those pieces using them are available.
There is a very good reason why a composer would score for an A bass clarinet even if one wasn't available - and that is because they would have seen it in another composer's score, and also just for the convenience of scoring all the clarinets in A. I have commented on the use of the A bass cl and also the sarrusophone in other lessons.
Have you ever considered exploring the orchestration technique of French composer Florent Schmitt ?
How many peeps here took classes where the lecturer puts up a score, plays the CD and says: "Isn't that magnificent?", "You should check it out".
Please analyse the orchestration of some Bach cantatas!
Thanks!
I would like to see an analysis of something by Stravinsky, perhaps an excerpt from The Rite of Spring, if possible.
Thanks!!
What is the title of this? 0:19
Dude, it's the same piece.
Did you have any contact with Russell Garcia ?
Yeah I did. He was a good dude
Great!
Hi, I wonder what sort of tools/apps you use for annotating the PDF score? Thanks.
Hi Joshua! I use Pixelmator, which is a very easy-to-learn, inexpensive graphics suite.
Another chamber approach to 'Une barque sur l'océan': ruclips.net/video/Xun0N7JyC5E/видео.html
This was way way over my head, I can see that early music study is priceless if you wan to do something like this. I’m 50 years too late and too dumb to understand this stuff. These people are unnatural and this is something not easily learned.
Great video, thank you. Ravel's orchestration is all the time very complex, and the colors follow each other in a very rapid succession. So, it's all the time very delicate, almost sweet, but pure colors (for example from the brass section) are missing. This means that his ocean lacks some rawness and power. I guess this is the Aristocratic French Ocean...
I fear this art and this almost superhuman craft will vanish soon.
今は何でもある。羨ましい！
Haha, I never liked this piece, found it boring to hear, until I watch this video. Now I have learned how to taste it, through all the details. Same phenomenum used to happen with Stravinsky (firebird etc.), I just started to like those pieces after rehearsing with orchestra, where we understand each passage/instrument part, so it is better for our comprehension.
lovely video! but... Orchestration is, no one knows about before try it....
Where are the credits for the painters? An artist must respect another one.
An artist must also watch the end of the film in order to see their name in the credits. Which are shared at 17:51.
🤣@@OrchestrationOnline
4:24 damn ravel 🥵”2 hot bois😏”
If you add the midi to your explanation the views may increase too much and however many thanks for you