Why I can't stand the concept of "Gray Jedi"
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- Опубликовано: 18 сен 2024
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The idea of grey Jedi comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of the dark side.
I like them as a rare creature like a fallen/redeemed paladin, and as effectively excommunicated Jedi who are more open to using the dark side extremely sparingly but rightfully feel enough guilt about it they don't really train others.
"If one is to understand “the great mystery” one must study all it’s aspects, not just the dogmatic narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the force"
-Shiev Palpatine aka Darth Sidious aka the main villain of the trilogy
@@KRobinson-ko1ne a broken clock is right twice a day
@@KRobinson-ko1ne Bingo
I’ve always disliked the idea of grey Jedi because it feels like a cop out for a force user to have light and dark without having the context that any of the dark side will fully corrupt an individual in Star Wars. The force is balanced without the dark side, it is a perversion that is not even permitted on the scale
It's actually impressive that a fanbase that loves to point out that a hero needs flaws also has such a hard time accepting the jedi as the good guys because they aren't perfect.
A hero needs flaws to be relatable to the audience, a flawed organization is neither here nor there. Sometimes irritating in how stupid they can be to watch on-screen.
@@АлексейМомот-щ7оamazing how this comment comes so close yet so somehow misses the point entirely
@@АлексейМомот-щ7оBut that’s the point, the Jedi know how tempting it is to use the force for selfish gain
I find it annoying when some people called Qui Gon Jinn a "Grey Jedi" when he used the Force to "cheat" in a betting game with Watto.
It's like they don't understand the circumstances Qui Gon was in.
Just because someone is disciplined, it doesn't make them moral. The jedi often used their powers to gain advantage or force their morality on others. For example, the death sticks scene in the prequels or the reputation for "jedi diplomacy"
Qui hon was a true Jedi, unlike the prequel era Jedi because he didn’t restrain himself to dogma and want to help others without politics getting in the way
Watto was definitely a slimy, greedy grifter. His chance cube was more than likely loaded so Qui-Gon had to use the Force to manipulate the cube since there was nothing in his favor. After all, the odds were already in Watto's favor by this point considering no matter if Anakin won the race or not, Watto would keep all the money from the sold pod racer.
Also, I have my own theory that Watto actually talked to Sebulba before the race and made a deal with him that if he sabotaged Anakin's pod racer, then he would get a slice of the profits from either the sold pod racer or the bets since Watto would be betting on Sebulba anyway since he "always wins". There's no way that Watto was going to let Anakin just walk away with how much of a good investment he was and because of the free labor he provided as a young slave. But Watto didn't account for Anakin's reflexes and foresight to get him to not only thwart Sebulba's sabotage but also win the race.
@Lord_Draco_III the chance cube was a loaded cube, it had more red sides than blue sides, watto made anakin the blue side and Shimi the red because he knew the cube would likely come up red. You could tell in his vocal tone and his anger at losing the roll.
Qui represented what a true Jedi was supposed to be, in direct contrast to ALL the Jedi we saw in TPM.
This whole gray thing is ridiculous. There's no canon reference to gray, and sorry - EU is not, IS NOT AND WAS NEVER CANON. Not in the sense that cinema was. I digress.
The gray thing was inferred and made up by fans. Even the story group confirmed there's no such thing. There you have it - from the IP's proverbial mouth - gray Jedi are not a thing.
So, fans that push this idea are unequivocally wrong.
Bottom line: Star Wars is not Open Source.
You want to contribute to the lore, in a canon way? Get hired by Lucas film and do some decent writing (they could use it).
I think the reason that explanation from Anakin in Episode II gets ignored, is because it comes off as him making stuff up to flirt with Padme, when in reality, he was convincing himself that it was okay to be with Padme because of the Jedi ways he was taught (which are true).
It's similar to how people believe the prophecy was wrong because Yoda says it could be wrong, when in reality, Yoda is simply doubting it and opening the possibility of it being wrong.
Well, tbf, what he says is true, but how he goes about it is wrong.
He is right, Jedi are supposed to be compassionate, that is a form of ultimate love in way, cause it extends to everyone around them.
But he was wrong because what he had with Padme was never compassion, but passion, which is probably part of why people discredit what he says.
If I recall yoda doesn’t even say it could be wrong, no ? Just misinterpreted.
Gray Jedi is a concept for people who want to have their cake and eat it too.
I couldn't have put it better myself
So is introducing an idea like "balance" while claiming that light is right and darkness is wrong. That's not how it works in a lot of the religions and philosphies Lucas drew inspiration from, unless I'm misunderstanding them.
@@realjoemavrowhat religion teaches since you have darkness in you it’s fine if you occasional do evil? Like what one says if you get angry it’s fine to hit someone? It’s about accepting there is darkness in you and overcoming it and not letting it control you like Yoda taught, that’s what it’s about in Christianity and even that was one of the religions Lucas used. Also one of the themes of Star Wars is Good overcoming evil as before the Star Wars movies came out there was a good number of movies that were doing morally grey characters and Lucas wanted to move away from that.
@@tjmcfadden5137
That's not what I was getting at. I'm saying, in some philosophies--some of which Lucas seems to have drawn inspiration from--light and darkness are not good and evil but are still essential forces that people can't do without. Again, that's my understanding. I am pretty rusty on those subjects.
And I understand wanting to make fiction a little more idealised and a little more black and white but times change and sometimes, audiences want more nuance and more gray. If you want to keep your audience, then as a writer, you have to at least take what your fans (the ones supproting your IP) want into account. Lucas didn't do that when he made the Special Editions and Disney sure isn't doing it now.
@@realjoemavroThat actually is how it works. Evil is imbalance in Taoism and not part of the Yin Yang
Thank you I was worried I was the only person who can't stand the idea of "gray jedi" I cringe every time I hear a fan talk about it.
I’ve always disliked the idea of grey Jedi because it feels like a cop out for a force user to have light and dark without having the context that any of the dark side will fully corrupt an individual in Star Wars. The force is balanced without the dark side, it is a perversion that is not even permitted on the scale
the force has a will of it's own, Jedi work toward it's will. Sith bend the will to suit their needs/wants.
There is no In between. Every Jedi can use "Sith" Powers. HOWEVER, I don't think the will of the force would not let them 'get ahead' of themselves.
Exactly the force is in balance when left to function how it sees fit this is the light. The Sith literally enslave the force to their will this is the dark side. It’s a quick path to power and is addictive. There are few who can use it once and only once and not fall down the hole of rationalizing using it again and again
@@Invalidcookie-bv4cxThe Star Wars galaxy is a complicated place you would see a lot of gray areas in places but when the galaxy on the line you got to choose either the light or the dark.
@@Invalidcookie-bv4cxExcept that isn't the case. No Jedi can use Force Lightning for example.
Grey Jedi. An attempt by fans to justify using the Force for "whatever" without being called "bad guys"
100% this.
Yeah. In games, you'll often find it's alarmingly easy to manipulate the alignment system so that you can Force Lightning a quest NPC during a cutscene, and then start a dialogue with a companion NPC who just watched you torture a sentient being to death, but treats you like a saint because you chose the Light Side convo options so you could bang them.
And it bleeds through into conversations about other media.
It's the mary-sue of narrative copouts.
No, it's more like putting a real-world lens of moral gradient over a black and white system deisgned and written for kids. Because not all of us see ourselves in the jedi or the sith. So grey Jedi are actually representative of how we ACTUALLY behave in real life.
The point is that its just another version of being sith not all sith are mustache twirling psosypaths. But the arent jedi. Unfortunately life is black and white. Gray is what we call things when we dont have the vision to distinguish the light from the dark. Its a simple minded moral concept that people use to cope with internal and external failures of character.
APATHY IS DEATH!!!! APATHY IS DEATH!!@@Claego
I remember the first reference I ever saw to a "grey Jedi" was in the old West End Games TTRPG books (2nd edition), long before the prequels. I no longer have the books (unfortunately), but from memory their concept of a gray Jedi was a Jedi who had fallen to the Dark and was struggling to return to the Light. These characters were designed to have trouble with their Force abilities, often being unreliable due to their personal internal conflict.
A very different idea from the current popular definition.
I remember that too, although it was more of a video or pic online I saw...
Light Jedi were Jedi that remained in the Light Side or had returned to it.
Dark Jedi (like Darth Vader) were those who had fallen from the Light and now used the Dark Side. They could be classified as "Sith" if they became evil enough, but to their former comrades, they would aleays be classified as "Dark Jedi".
Then there's the Grey Jedi, who were Jedi that, as you described, on the path to redemption (also like Vader).
This is much better than the current definition of Grey Jedi.
The only reference I found was the KOTOR campaign guide which described Grey Jedi as being people like Jolee Bindo. That is Jedi who left the order and followed their own path.
I don't think there is a "gray Jedi" in either legends or canon. The closest we get is Jolee Bindo saying "I see more gray than dark or light" but that was him trying to simplify his philosophy to Bastila, who at the time was pretty naïve. Jolee still followed the light side. He just didn't believe one has to be a Jedi to do it.
Revan is also often mistaken as a gray Jedi. But he has only been either light or dark, not both at the same time.
Revan was just more rogueish and pragmatic than most Jedi. Similar to Qui-Gon. Seeing the Jedi Code more as guidelines than rules. But that doesn't mean he was some Jedi Wolverine.
The Imperial Knights were also clearly light siders, not gray. But they were more like the Blades from Elder Scrolls than Jedi.
Jolee saying he ‘sees grey’ and all was never meant to be pertaining to the Force. He means he sees that people are usually grey and that, much like what Luke saw, all harbor a bit of darkness in their heart, and that we have a choice to live above that darkness or embrace it. It goes beyond seeing beyond good and evil, black and white, because it’s also a matter of compassion, redemption, etc. that’s extended to all people.
The Bendu is the only true example of someone in the middle, and they're more like a force of nature than anything. The Bendu acts only to defend their planet from harm and otherwise stays out of galactic conflict. That's the true neutral, the 'grey' that everyone seems to love so much.
I’ve always disliked the idea of grey Jedi because it feels like a cop out for a force user to have light and dark without having the context that any of the dark side will fully corrupt an individual in Star Wars. The force is balanced without the dark side, it is a perversion that is not even permitted on the scale
Oh thank gosh I’m seeing sane comments on this topic and people who better understand how the force works thanks guys
Love the imperial knights they are like militarize samurai version of the Jedi but without the philosophy just whole different force sect but are light siders considering they killed their emperor if him or she fall to the dark side or aren’t able convince them back.
Something else I noticed about jedi that become bad, pon krell, Anakin and Bode, is they seem entitled to others respect and agreement because of how accusative they become when normal people are saying he is acting wrong. A trait of the dark side the jedi don't have is demanding respect. Jedi tend to explain their position. Where the Sith exhibit narcissistic or manipulative or insecure behavior.
Exactly some Star Wars fans who are in my family asked me what’s the difference between a dark Jedi and a Sith and something like this is probably the best way of explaining it…
@@Milothemighty10 I would sum it up as all Sith are Dark Jedi but not all Dark Jedi are Sith.
@@emberfist8347 fair enough Jedi survivor really made me think in depth about the whole Sith vs dark Jedi concept…
@@Milothemighty10 Thank you
@@ThreadBareHope1234 u r welcome…
We have two extremes, Apple Juice and Cyanide. Grey Jedi believe the best drink is a 50/50 mix.
The modern interpretation of Grey Jedi can be summed up with the assertion "An alcoholic will never know balance unless they spend half their time drinking".
@@ToaCody1 Demoman is a Gray Jedi confirmed
@@ToaCody1 it’s really not tho, it would be more like saying your not a alcoholic just bcuz you like have one or two drinks when you go out to eat.
They think a balanced diet is eating a salad for dinner with an appetizer of donuts
This.
Hey Thor, thanks for responding to my comment in this video. I appreciate your candor and willingness to debate your viewpoint in this video. I admit, I probably could have worded my previous comment a lot better and not have taken an admittedly one sided view of the situation.
While watching your video, I agree with your point on the Sith being an entirely destructive way of life, with anyone who goes down that path being corrupted to the point where their former selves might not even recognize who they have become, even if it was a desire to do good. The abilities of the dark side are more focused on bringing power to the individual, not on helping others.
And you are definitely right about the Jedi being able to have emotions and friendships, even love. I totally missed the mark on that so thank you for debating that point. I sometimes completely forget that it wasn’t completely the Jedi’s fault that Anakin turned to the dark side, that most of the fault lies in Anakin himself. Instead of understanding that Padme may potentially die one day, Anakin made a choice to save her, but at the cost of everyone else. His choice was made in selfishness, which is the choice that led him to the dark side. Feelings themselves aren’t inherently bad, it’s the choices you make that can lead you to become a Sith. Obi-WAN could have chosen to get revenge on Darth Maul after he killed both Qui-Gon and Satine, but instead he chooses not to. So thanks for debating that point.
On the third point, you are definitely right about it wasn’t the system that was the problem with the Jedi, but particularly the people of that system that failed the original view of that system, particularly some the members of the Jedi council in the years during and preceding the Clone Wars. Systems of government are only so good if the people in charge of those systems do not become corrupt or lose sight of what the original institution was meant to do or stand for, and while there were members of the Jedi council that tried to do their best when they could, there were others who were dogmatically believed in doing what they thought the Jedi Code told them they should do.
On the last point, I agree with you on the point that you don’t have to use to dark side to know the dangers of it, as with your example with Yoda in recognizing his own inner darkness, but choosing to reject it. He knows it is a part of him and always will be, as each person in our world has the potential to do bad or terrible things, but he chooses to not give in to that darkness, to never use the dark side, even if it is with good intentions.
My favorite Jedi is without a doubt Qui-Gon Jin, and there are many both in the fandom and in lore that consider him a Grey Jedi, and I’ll admit that until this video I was among those who considered him that way. But after watching this video and thinking about it a bit, I wonder if instead of labeling him as such, he can just be labeled as what he truly is: a Jedi.
So thanks Thor for debating this topic with me and changing my viewpoint on this topic. I look forward to your next video discussion.
Cool that you understand. To be fair on the Qui-Gon thing a lot of people take from a legend book where Obi-Wan mentions that some people behind Qui-Gons back have been calling him a grey Jedi aren’t realizing that the definition of grey they are referring to here is that of a light side user that doesn’t listen to the council which was the jedi in legends official definition for a grey Jedi. Indeed Qui-Gon was just what a Jedi was supposed to be someone who listened to the will of the force. Qui-Gon himself even respected the council just didn’t agree with them on concepts like how much they listened to the Republic, but Qui-Gon always held a deep respect for Yoda.
@@tjmcfadden5137 yeah I remember that, it’s easy to forget that the situation in which that term was used to describe Qui-Gon was a completely different definition than most among the fandom use.
The funny thing is one of the main reasons I'm so against the idea of "Gray Jedi" is because I can't stand when Qui-Gon gets called one. As you mention, he should just be called a Jedi and that's that. In fact, I'd argue he's one of (in not thee) best examples of what a Jedi should be that we have, especially in the films. There's a reason why the Force essentially picked him to train Anakin.
Anyway, thanks for the original question, and response here, and thank you for being a good sport about all this. As I said in the video, I didn't want this to come off like an attack or anything like that (or to sound like an ass) this is just one of this topics I feel very strongly about.
@@thorskywalker no worries Thor, I didn’t feel attacked at all. I’ve found very often that how people often react to differences of opinion is due to how the reply is worded and what mindset the person who is replied to goes into the situation. Your video dialogue was constructed in a way that gets your point across that is based in logic and examples, and there is not any part of it that is in any way a dig at me. I would say that your video was an excellent rebuttal of my original question.
Another point is I went into this video knowing my viewpoint would be challenged, but told myself to keep an open mind because there may be points I have never considered or forgotten, so I shouldn’t close myself off to that possibility.
Hey Thor, I actually have a new question for you regarding a rare occurrence of certain members of the Sith. We have seen numerous members of the Jedi over different forms of media fall to the dark side, but what about those who have seemingly done the opposite? Individuals like Darth Vader, Darth Revan, maybe Galen Marik(?)) we see being fully enveloped in the dark side but after certain events return to the light. Would these cases be random events that have a specific circumstance that applies to them, or could it be possible for other members of the Sith to return to the light? I’m curious on your take on this and whether it’s possible or these cases are just abnormalities that required specific events to happen.
@@thorskywalker Behind the scene filming G.L. on film called Qui Gon a grey Jedi.
From WEG west end games, along with 1990's novels and Dark Horse comics, then the Clone Wars .. the Grey debate been going on for thirty some years.
Other than everyone's bickering on what's canon, in Legends Dark Horse Clone War series Vos & Asja never hooked up. Vos had his own up & down with the darkside and ended up hiding on the Wookies home world with his wife and child. Vos teenage Wookie side kick end up in the Lagacy era comic series.
Now please cover the Grey Paladines.
Just kidding 🤪
Didn't the idea of "Grey Jedi" come from Star Wars games? Basically - "I want the good ending, but I also think Force lighting is cool."
If you're thinking of KOTOR1 and KOTOR2, Force Lightning is still worth it if you max out Light Side alignment, especially Consular/Master route but even for other classes. Yes, the alignment penalty exists. But it's so insignificant for the total Force points you will eventually have mid to late game and the rate at which they replenish after fights. The real spam move in both games is Force Wave because it has no alignment penalty AND it triggers knock out effects. You actually miss out on power if you are accumulating Light and Dark Side alignment points to a degree that they equal out. Light Side and Dark Side mastery bonuses both grant a stat bonus and require you to constantly keep your alignment point score of 50 or -50.
Regarding roleplaying in KOTOR2 specifically, if you really pay attention to what the lines of a hard Light Side player character says in the dialogue prompts in response to NPCs, that sort of character is holier-than-thou. If you only select that type of prompt during the entire game, you're failing to actually respond to the real life concerns of the people in front of you (as Qui Gon would say, be mindful of the Living Force) and yammering about self-sacrifice unasked. This is not just in relation to the lessons of Kreia, but other party member and other NPC interactions. The recent WoolieVersus LP on RUclips does a good job of showcasing this, but this is something that the KOTOR community has already known about for awhile.
Grey Jedi is basically an optional hard mode mechanically where you trade maxing out your stats so you can be more like Han Solo instead of Luke Skywalker in terms of personality. You pick dialogue options for a flawed yet self-aware person. There are gradients to this. The game makes this possible by having alignment points coming from both dialogue and in world choices. You can say some horrible things to party members who want to hear it, call NPCs out who are full of it if you have enough intelligence and/or awareness, harm no one, and take money when offered instead of turning it down for light side alignment points. [SPOILERS]You will be so middle of the road that you will lock yourself out of a dark side cave that is supposed to teach you the flaws of each choice you make in the game while still saying "Apathy is Death" in response to "I pick no side and refuse to participate" as a player choice.[/SPOILERS]
There are also more varied options when being a Sith. You can choose to be an out-of-control psychopath (kill Jedi on sight) or a master manipulator (work with them until an opportunity arises) and it changes the flow of the game and how NPCs interact with you.
Every alignment build is viable and has consequences. Picking holier-than-thou and/or out-of-control psychopath are classic archetypes from KOTOR1 that carry over in the prompts. They are obvious yet viable and good starting options to learn the range of the game's prompts. Repeat playthroughs are done by mixing it up.
Force Lightning IS cool and has always been cool. Luke Skywalker nearly died because too much coolness was being used on him to live, and his dad had to save him from it at the cost of his own life. ;)
Laughs in Kyle Katarn
Tldr
That's exactly the root of it
"Grey Jedi" is an awful term. You are either a Jedi or you aren't. There is no middle ground.
That's like say you're a "Grey Police Officer". There's no such thing. You are either a Police Officer or you aren't. No middle ground.
Grey Jedi need a better name. It's just awful marketing. No wonder fans hate them.
Yeah, Boken Jedi.
Most people I've encountered talking about Grey Jedi these days, are meaning a lightsaber-wielding Light sider, who is NOT a Jedi or a Sith - like an "unaffiliated Force user"
@@achaudhari101 Bokken Jedi is no better either. There is actually Jedi Exile.
I think a "Grey Police Officer" would be someone who works as a police officer but is a vigilante on the side when criminals get off on a technicality.
Cowboy-Cop is a time honored trope. However, I think the term comes from Dark Jedi being used in the films, and Jedi being made to a shorthand of Force Adept in Legends. So when people needed a term and Neither-Side Force Adept is a bit of a mouthfull they went for a simple, relatively logical one.
This is why Luke is my favourite Jedi: he allowed his students to have attachments freely but teach them how to overcome the darkness inside them
A constant problem people have with understanding the Jedi is that the problem was not the system refused to change the old lore was the the Jedi Order that existed during the clone war had went through so much changes and reforms that it didn't match those that came before it. Remember the Jedi of the past could have kids and family. Not all reforms are a good thing, the Jedi idea of the Clone War Era that people had problem with was said to be because of a recent reform.
It was a "recent reform" because Kevin J Anderson and Tom Veitch made a bunch of guesses in Tales of the Jedi and got things pretty much completely wrong, and the entire rest of Old Republic-subfranchise doubled down on those. The problem was eventually resolved by Darth Bane trilogy introducing Ruusan Reforms and Legends verion of the Rule of Two, since at that point the Jedi and Sith lore had diverged so completely from what Lucas intended, and Legends was too, heh, attached to the whole single consistent canon thing. And Legends Rule of Two is actually in complete violation of how the Dark Side works, if your Dark Lord is self-sacrificing they're doing it wrong.
They did something similar when it turned out Timothy Zahn had guessed the Clone Wars wrong too.
Well the reforms were for the best given the issued the things they banned caused.
@@mpnuorvahow is Legends Rule of Two wrong?
@@mpnuorva I don't particularly blame them for that since the prequels had not been made yet. That being said, the lack of continuity is annoying. If I was a writer of one of those books, I'd run it by George and the Star wars writers first. Last thing we want to do is constantly retcon everything.
@@АлексейМомот-щ7оthe Legends rule of two as made up by Darth Bane sees the Sith as decicated to their ways to the point that the Sith Master should be expecting and even encouraging their Apprentice to one day kill them and take their place.
But if the Sith are wholly selfish, how would that work? Why would they put themselves in that position? Weird.
Game of Thrones once said love is the death of duty. But duty could also be the death of love.
Logically, you would think a Grey Jedi would be the worst choice possible for a Force user.
A Sith draws their strength from rage and hate.
A Jedi draws their strength from calmness and clear focus.
Two completely opposite ideas. A Grey Jedi can't merge them
All you would get is a really watered down force user. A half-angry Jedi with really weak force lightning and sloppy lightsaber combat because they aren't focused.
Exactly. Using both together is like trying to swim upstream and downstream at the same time.
@@thorskywalkerIn the knight of Republic games that's how it works, if you end up going for the middle you end up being weak.
Rather than rage and hate vs calm and focus... I think it's all focus, but while the Jedi focuses outward and feels the world around them, becoming part of that world and letting the Force flow through them, the Sith focus on themselves and only themselves, placing themselves above everyone else and drawing the Force to them through willpower. It's like selfless connection versus selfish ego. Rage, hate etc are just easy ways to focus on yourself and blocking out everything else. That might make it even more compatible
That could be An interesting thing to see
No its called being a functional human, where you don't let any emotional state be your overriding default. We also see that those capable of using the light and dark are stronger than pure light or dark wielders, since while Light and Dark side users are stronger at the Light or Dark respectively, the Gray are able to match and surpass them by being able to use both and weave them into things the Light or Dark side user can't.
Your earlier video about what balance really means changed how I viewed it in terms of Star Wars. I really agree with the Dark Side being imbalance and the "Light Side" being the balance. It's Truth vs Error, when you come down to it. I still have qualms with the execution of the "no attachments" bit of the Jedi code specifically, since I think they perhaps take it too far in certain ways, but I get why George used that in his world building for them.
Not exactly. The dark side is part of the balance - we see that in the Mortis arc of the Clone Wars, and Luke even says in The Last Jedi, "Balance. Powerful light, powerful darkness." The dark side is a part of the natural order of things. "Dark siders" such as the Sith however, abuse it and wreck the natural Order. So the light side becomes the balancing factor - the Jedi use the light to keep the darkness in check, thus preserving the balance. But the dark side is still technically part of the balanced Force.
It's not no attachments, it's more, no priorities above the will of the force. Basically, anything that you care about needs to be able to be set aside for the greater good. It's not as simple as not having attachments it's way more nuanced than that.
@@matthewk4912no. The dark side could disappear completely and balance would be maintained. Saying it's necessary is the same as saying a virus is necessary for a healthy body. While the virus may strengthen the immune system, it's not actually needed.
@@alistairgrey5089 I agree that it's deeper than the simple statement of "no attachments", but I'm reasonably sure that was their policy. This was both for the reason you state, but also to avoid giving into the negative emotions leading them to the Dark Side. That includes a general prohibition on familial relations, which is the specific aspect of the policy I disagree with, though I understand why they might go to that extreme.
@@alistairgrey5089 darkness is required for light to even exist. There’s an old concept of yin and Yang, there’s a little bit of evil in the good, and a little bit of good in evil. They must both exist in order for balance to exist. Or I think that’s the basic gist of it. Even going into the world of actual light, if there’s too much light, it’s just as blinding as too much darkness. In order to see, there HAS to be some amount of light and darkness. There has to be some level of balance between light and dark in order for you to see. The more balance there is, the better you can see.
Grey jedi are a cop-out to gain the benefits of both light and dark without dealing with any of the perceived downsides.
That’s only if there written poorly, if written right they could walk a constant tightrope similar to ani as a Jedi, but just never go to far as to pull or a Tuscan or younglins massacre because something/someone always pulls him back/ stops em b4. The main conflict wouldn’t be being stronger/better than your opponent but rather trying to be better than youself n never go to far. Cuz once they go to far they stop being a ‘gray Jedi’ they would just a be fallen Jedi at that point, no better than a sith.
The very idea of a grey Jedi is exactly what Palpatine used to turn Dooku and Anakin. It's a Sith lie to lead wavering Jedi to the Dark Side.
I wouldn't even call Ashoka a grey Jedi. Cause she still stands by Jedi morals. She just doesn't tie herself down to the code neither does Quin Gon
3:30 The reason why a lot of people dismiss the arguments Anakin brings forth in that scene is because he has to be considered an unreliable source at that point.
He is clearly highly infatuated with Padmé, so contruding the teachings he learned in a way that supports his hopes of a romantic liason between both of them is something that can be considered believable for him, particularly since he's at an age where such approaches to conventional wisdom do come easy.
We can also see this narrative already play out as at least one of the reasons of Anakins fall to the dark side, so him misinterpreting the teachings would align with him as a character not being "devoted" enough to the teachings, basically already showing the flaw that will ultimately be his downfall.
Anakin himself states that he "defines compassion as unconditional love", which is in essence an interpretation. One that many might share and one that is certainly related to the concurrent definition of the word, but crucially one that's not 100& congruent.
Lastly, we can interpret Anakins words as an attempt to appease Padmé - who is concerned for Anakin to follow the rules of the Jedi - as well as to woo her with a slightly romanticised interpretation of the Jedi's teachings.
So basically it's easily dismissable because it doesn't come from a source that has no hidden agenda, but from a hormone filled teen who's treating his security job as a romantic vaccation with his childhood sweatheart. The only way for Anakins statement to be interpreted as even more of an unreliable source would be for him to state that he would've just taken some psychedellic drugs and/or be a compulsionary liar. There's not much more room left to become more unreliable as a source as he is during that statement.
Fans say the Jedi needed to be "Gray," but also say that Mace Windu was a "Gray Jedi" and symbolized everything wrong with the Jedi Order. Lmao
Exactly
@@DrD00M3 Also people forget George wrote a scene for Attack of the Clones where Mace tells Obi-Wan that Anakin is a great Jedi and to have more faith in him. The fans made up Mace being all jealous of Anakin. Mace wasn't jealous - he's just a by-the-book Jedi who was stubborn and tired of Anakin's recklessness. He didn't want to put up with Anakin falling for Palpatine's lies, and was Mace wrong? No, he wasn't. And he was right about Anakin not being ready to be a Jedi Master because Anakin even went on to kill innocent civilians who had nothing to do with the Republic, Rebels, or Jedi.
Because Legends wrote him as Michael L Jackson, while Lucas wrote him as by-the-book. So on one hand he's courting the Gray Jedi-idea, and on the other seems to represent all the problems
@@mpnuorvawho tf is Michael L Jackson 😮
_Mace Windu is not a grey jedi...._
I really like how you tackle the questions and complex topic. The way you brought up things from different scenes was very on point! Really enjoyed this video, keep it up! :D
"We all got a chicken duck woman thing waiting for us," - Obi-wan Kenobi
“Every day I worry all day.”
“Yeah it’s waiting in the bushes for us”
The reason why the concept of a “gray jedi” is appealing is that the idea that Light = Good Dark = Bad is reminiscent of infantile black and white thinking that we all grow out of as we mature.
Gray is a clumsy way of trying to make it all make sense to an adult mind.
Hey Thor, for a long while I've had a question lingering in my mind about Luke Post-ROTJ. Should his Jedi Order have a no kill rule?
Vader being his father absolutely was a driving factor for his reluctance to killing him but Luke is also very adamant that there is good in him. If Star Wars truly preaches that everyone is capable of great good and great evil then how is it just to not treat everyone with equal compassion?
The only justifications for that really strike me as off-putting. "If you aren't willing to kill you will eventually lose" and "for the greater good" being the main ones.
The utilitarian mindset that Jedi have to kill because they'll eventually be put in situations where any other choice results innocents suffering, to me, just misses the point of heroism. The second you make morality into a numbers game, it instantly gets messy. That's how you get your Luthen Raels of the Galaxy claiming it's worth it because it's for the greater good.
Doing the wrong thing can easily be effective but true heroism and selflessness isn't about "winning". Sometimes it's about losing for the right reasons.
I guess where I think this truly gets tricky is with the question of who is selfish? The person that can't let go and accept defeat or the person that can't let go of their convictions and potentially stop countless tragedies.
Would be really happy to hear your take!
I always think back to Jolee Bindo when I think of "gray jedi". He didn't dabble in the dark side, he was still attuned more to the light.
He simply didn't exactly walk the path of light fully. He could be selfish at times and grumpy. But also capable of great selflessness when called for.
Plus I like what Jolee has to say about love. ",Love can damn you, but also save you".
5:52 - "For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire." Not "the Galaxy". Not "serving the Force". *The Old Republic*. I don't know where you get this idea that the Jedi were not supposed to serve the Republic. Show me that source in EP 1 - 6.
Indeed, Jedi being peace keepers is a key asset to their existence. Lore wise I don't think it makes sense for their numbers to be bolstered by adoptees to deal with the Darkside given most citizens don't have any concept of such things. The assumption is that most of the time a Jedi contents with physical, moral, and transient threats you'd expect a police man, medic, negotiator would.
When a lot of people discuss gray Jedi, what they're really hinting at is an alternate way of following the will of the force/using the Light side that is divorced from the Jedi way. Just as Dathomir infamously has non-Sith Dark Side users, there too must be Light Side users throughout the galaxy who aren't strictly Jedi but still follow the will of the force, like the Baran Do or the Fallanassi from the Black Fleet Crisis books.
Star Wars fans so badly want the lore and galaxy to expand because we haven't gotten that for awhile, and reaching for "gray Jedi" is a misguided attempt at that.
Legends character from the novel " I, Jedi " .. Corran Horn comes off as a grey Jedi with a dark humor but at the start and end of the day he is a husband, father, space cop, rebel fighter pilot, and Jedi. He rub shoulders with so many smugglers, petty crimes for so long he is a bit cover in grime. Still all around good guy. Many times in later novels he DID touch on the darkside giving off very intimidating laughs which caused people to outright surrender, " Oh, this is going to be fun."
Luke had to call him on it many times.
Quinlan Vos in the Dark Horse comics never hooked up with Asja and he had a wife and child at the end of the Clone Wars. Vos was boarder line a dark Jedi through much of his series. His master remark the only reason why he didn't fall into the darkside cause he was ripping limbs with Wookies. Vos special trick was ripping power lines and lightning arcing entire rooms with yellow eyes.
Also on note from legends, since Wookie pedai been written over edit so many times over the years. A side character started off as one of the Emperor Hands remain as a dark Jedi with some Sith lore. Who also sent his teenage children to visit Luke's Yavin Jedi Academy. His family was Old Republic senate, later Imperial senate, and the families elders are grooming him to become sector governor/senator. He is logistics that just happen to be a trained Sith assassin with self-control anger issues.
The novel, " Courtship of Princess Leia " was where the night sisters were first debuted.
Honestly legends had a bunch of C & D plot background characters with very minor Force abilities that went unnoticed that came off as grey or dark.
My favorite writing without saying it. Smuggler port, built over on a Sith space region smuggler city. With the local families bloodlines trace back there for the pass 3,000years, how else can you say they are Sith but Not Sith ?
As one smuggler stated, " The .. peoples .. have had no use for a Lord for the past 2,000years."
Other than a few passing throw away sentences in a novel here and there the passing reader/fan would not know of any of it.
Not to diss the commentor in any way, or anyone who makes such misconceptions (believe me, I was one of those for a time), but anyone who has read the books and comics and played the games that took part in the Old Republic would know that the Jedi back then don't block themselves from emotion. They are not robots, they still have and acknowledge their feelings. Like the Buddhist and Shaolin monks from East Asia that they are based off of, they don't let those feelings drive them. They are supposed solve the problems of the galaxy through quieting their mind and stretching out through the Force to find the answers, not going with what _feels_ right to them.
There are multiple examples of Jedi who acknowledge the darkness that exists within them and fight it. They fight it because to embrace it is the path to the Dark Side. Such examples being Quinlan Vos from the Dark Horse comics (the Dark Disciple book is a YA, trashy, condensed version of what was written a decade and a half earlier), the canon story of Darth Revan, Ulic Qel-Droma, Bastila Shan, a whole host of characters from SWTOR, and Mace Windu. None of those examples are considered Grey Jedi because to fight against the darkness within oneself, to resist it, that is the core of being a Jedi. It is not to resist or fight against feelings, but to resist the temptation that those feelings will control you and impassion you. Because once you start down that path, as Yoda had said, then it will consume you.
9:00 The problem that I have with this episode is that Yoda is 900 years old. He should've already had recognized that there is also a dark side within himself but by this point he has _mastered_ it. He doesn't let it control him. That is essentially what makes most Jedi Knights rise to the ranks of Master. They have mastered a part of themselves. I find that the examples that I have already listed or even of Anakin's vision inside of the cave of Navaan (Nevaan?) is a better example of a character who already has a dark side within them and what could happen if he lets it control him.
10:35 Eh, I disagree. In the games of KOTOR I and II and Jedi Survivor, the players have chosen and experienced the dark side and its powers and abilities. They showcase how quicker and easier it is to use those powers, thereby making more seductive to the player.
In a book called "The Jedi Path" it lays out the principles, codex, and teachings of the Jedi Order. This includes the concept of the gray Jedi. "The so-called gray Jedi have been with us since the beginning. Although they do not break with the Jedi orthodoxy concerning the dark side, they bristle when asked to take orders from the Council. Gray Jedi make compromises, cut corners, and hide their actions from scrutiny, all under the assumption that their experience makes them authorities on policy. They are mavericks who are difficult to control, but can be valued members of the Order after they have been persuaded to follow the established hierarchy." From this paragraph, it establishes that gray Jedi are indeed a thing, but they don't follow the guidelines, rules, or directions by the Jedi Council if they don't want to. In some situations, like in the case of Qui-Gon Jinn, it can be thought of that they are following the Will of the Force. However, in others, they are more likely to do things for selfish or personal reasons. In any case, they are still part of the Jedi Order.
The book also goes into the misconceptions of the Jedi Order as well including the topic of shunning emotional commitments, that they are kidnappers, brainwashers, and elitists. However, it's too much that I can put down in a YT comment, so I hope that Thor gets the book someday and shares his thoughts on it.
For that matter, forget the comics or books. Look to the movies.
Obi-Wan didn't tell Anakin to repress, or block emotion. He told Anakin to be MINDFUL of his feelings.
It always irritated me too. People who like the grey Jedi so much seem like they want to have all of the power but none of the responsibility. They want to be cool but not play by the rules.
I think that it is appealing and makes sense if you don't know the lore as well. I use to like it before I truly realized how the Force works. There can be Jedi who have fallen in love and it have had no problems because they were Jedi first and I like when they do that since it does make things more interesting and makes them stronger because of their commitments both to the Jedi and having their families. But unless it is used as a gameplay mechanic where you have the choice to turn to the dark side and you can still use them if you wanted to even though they break the lore (like in KOTOR) or in a story where a Jedi begins to fall to the dark side then any Force users who want to be Jedi or Jedi like should not be using any dark side powers since it is a dangerous and highly addictive drug.
Exactly
I’ve always disliked the idea of grey Jedi because it feels like a cop out for a force user to have light and dark without having the context that any of the dark side will fully corrupt an individual in Star Wars. The force is balanced without the dark side, it is a perversion that is not even permitted on the scale
The Jedi don't BLOCK off love, hate, etc. They simply learn to let go of them, and let them flow away. That's what living in the moment is like!
I don't like the idea that the dark side can be basically "tamed" into a force for good or balance. If the dark side is not stronger but instead more seductive, then what is left of it if it can be subdued and used by those it would work to seduce and corrupt?
Yoda's understanding of the Dark Side is surface-level at best. He describes it as "quick and easy" when clearly nothing about it is easy. He tells Luke that once he starts down that path, it will consume him and Luke proved him wrong by calling upon the Dark Side to defeat Vader and turning back to the light to save him.
It makes me think of KOTOR where Dark Side abilities like Force lightning seem really cool and useful against enemies. The concept of Gray Jedi treats the Dark Side and Light Side as different skill trees, and Gray Jedi having access to both sets of abilities (Force healing and Force Lightning). In a video game, that would be cool. But in the stories, the Light and Dark are different approaches to power (The Force). Using power selfishly or unselfishly. And following one path makes it impossible to follow the other because they are diametrically opposed.
In korto tho you get punished for going against your power set, a light side user gets better pure stats if they only pick light side ability’s n options( i say pure cuz even tho lighting is debuffed its so OP everyone uses it either side of the force in game) and vise verse for the dark. I agree that following both paths would make it impossible to meet the ends of either one( Yoda and palps for example ) but there no reason you shouldn’t be able to reach halfway on both imo. In real live you can be selfish in some aspects/parts and selfless in others
Gray Jedi are popular within my saber community and i think it comes from a few factors. Prequel era Jedi are seen as a much more conservative restrictive controlling organization and people want to be badasses, its kind of baked in that maverick and cool means you cant be a traditional Jedi.
Another factor is Dark Side powers are seen as cool, so they don't want the corruptive consequences of being evil, but they do want the power so they say Gray Jedi to claim there is a middle path that lets you use darkness but also still be mostly good if again "a lone badass"
Personally i think Gray Jedi are just Jedi in the process of becoming Sith without realizing it. If not Sith, then Dark. Using the dark side is an addictive feeling, and you can only stave that off for so long before it gets its hooks in you.
Anyway i think you can have a "cool" and "compelling" character as a Jedi, you just have to have good writers
I like the concept of Grey Jedi, but more of a headcanon version developed through decades of Star Wars roleplay, not the widespread believe that they are the "correct" form of Jedi or even say they are "balanced". I very much like the idea of a rogue Jedi or someone who was previously a Jedi often struggling with (and perhaps very rarely embracing) the Dark Side to a precarious point, but not truly falling, though the risk of falling is there. The only "strength" or "advantage" to this kind of Grey Jedi would be perspective and understanding. They don't get "stronger" because they use light and dark, they aren't perfectly "in tune" with the force because they use the light and dark. It's more a curse of the given circumstances of their life than it is a boon, which to me makes it very interesting.
It's also worth noting that a Grey Jedi doesn't need to be a Jedi with this definition, though likely was at some point. "Grey Jedi" just sounds a lot better than "Grey Force User" or "Grey Sith". "Jedi" is a colloquialism in the Star Wars universe oftentimes for laymen talking about "people who can use the force". Which is how I perceive the word.
Gray Jedi are a paradoxical concept. The light side of the force requires you to act selflessly, whereas the dark side is pure selfishness. To become “powerful” in either, you must fully commit to it. The gray is noncommittal to either side and therefore not in the full embrace of the darkness or light. The middle ground is essentially nothing. Too selfish to be really selfless, too selfless to be truly selfish. There are many examples of when a crisis of identity happens when a force user is noncommittal to the direction they chose and they lose the strength of their connection to the force (i.e. Darth Bane, Rahm Kota, early years Vader, even sequel Luke)
Nobody is purely selfish or selfless. The human psyche isn't a pie chart, it's a maelstrom. You need to understand that when making a magic/power system that's tied to people's emotions or else you get a flawed and not very believable system that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
@@realjoemavro you’re right that no one is. But your conflating healthy existence with connection to the force. It is why Jedi training takes decades to hone because it is extremely difficult to let go of selfish desires and takes constant work to maintain. And the force isn’t a magical power system, even if it sometimes is portrayed that way. It’s an energy field with connections to all life and a will of its own. The Jedi essentially are symbiotic with the light side, acting as conduits for its will. They do this by giving up their selfish desires and aim to become selfless. It is a constant struggle to do so which is why they claim the battle with dark side within is constant. The Dark Side is the corruption of that balance by acting selfishly instead of with the will of the force. Their “power” is strengthened the more committed they are to their selfishness because the corruption of the force becomes greater. To sit in the middle of these two simply means you aren’t in tune with the light enough and you aren’t selfish enough to really be really using the dark side of any note. Those in the middle have weak connections to both sides of the spectrum and can’t effectively use either
I remember there was a video years ago talking about the myth of the grey Jedi and why they wouldn’t be the ideal if they did exist but since the video was defending the last Jedi, it didn’t gain as much traction
That is my fear with a lot of things right now, with the Acolyte, the New Jedi Order, etc. They are going to use it to justify completely changing the Jedi from what they are to what they want them to be. Or to be blunt Kennedys last fuck you to the fans.
To me, a grey jedi was not an inbetween of jedi and sith. But a Jedi that used the darkside. Not a pure light jedi, but a jedi nonetheless. A type of jedi that uses the enemies abilities against them like an antivirus. Think Kyle Katarn. He's a jedi that uses darkside powers. That doesn't seem like bad writing to me and can be a cool thing to explore. Imagine a story wear some jedi have to learn how to use some of the darkside in order to defeat a type of wound in the force like darth nihilius who can only be fatally harmed by darkside abilities. In said story, the jedi struggle with the urge to resist the darkside and try to find the sweetspot where they can use it without being corrupted. It the end, they become even more resistant to the dark because they now understand it.
Novel, " I, Jedi."
character Corran Horn.
In later novels Luke had to call him on tapping the darkside with his intimidating laughter, " Oh this is going to be fun."
It was so chilling smuggler would outright surrender than get into a blaster fight with him.
I think most people "ignore" the Anakin part in Ep2 because it's his own interpretation. Compassion is sympathy, not unconditional love. Even as a teenager first seeing it, I saw it as Anakin trying to make a loop hole for liking Padme.
I think there are 2 completely different and fundamentally incompatible interpretations of the Force in Star Wars.
The film version, where the light side is the true side of the Force while the dark side is a corruption of that true side of the Force. So from this perspective, Jedi selflessly listen to the Force while the Sith selfishly command it.
And the EU version, where the light and dark sides are essentially equivalent sides of the same Force. In this case, either side can be drawn upon without necessarily subscribing to either Jedi or Sith ideals. In this version it wouldn't just be about listening to the will of the Force vs rejecting it or selfishness or selflessness.
Kreia described Revan's fall to the dark side as a sacrifice, and while I guess that could work in the context of the light side being the only Force with the dark side being a corrupted version of it, I think it works better when in the context of both sides coexisting in equal measures. Where an ultimately selfless sacrifice for a greater good or the 'will of the Force' could be made. I'm pretty sure Jacen Solo had a similar situation, but I don't know that time period nearly as well as the old republic era.
Additionally, the Mortis Celestials support the EU version of coexisting light and dark sides of the Force. That's why the Father is presented as neutral as in the EU representation of the Force, the "true" Force is between both the light and dark sides of the Force rather than just the light side like in the films. As such neutral Force sensitives (such as the Je'daii Order) which do not subscribe to either the light or the dark can exist just fine, and so can the concept of a grey Jedi that follows the Force rather than its extremes.
While in the film version of the Force, there's no such thing as a neutral position between the light and dark sides of the Force. The Mortis Celestial Father cannot exist in the film version as he would be one who's somehow in between the true Force and a corrupted version of the Force. There you're either using the Force selfishly and corrupting it for your needs or you're listening to its will and drawing upon the true Force. Meaning, grey Jedi cannot exist in that context.
To have said it from the start, I don't really disagree with anything you said in the video. Just a couple points that it made me think about. One, I think the idea that Jedi are expected to be emotionless or emotionally suppressed comes from people interpreting that scene in Episode II the way I did: that Anakin was just trying to "mental gymnastics" his way around justifying a love affair with Padme. In other words, I always thought he was kind of lying in that scene, at least to himself. But the words are a little misleading either way; "attachment is forbidden, possession is forbidden" can't possibly be *completely* true because as you point out, Jedi have friends. And it may be just a matter of degree, but there's always going to be some level of attachment with friendship. Also they, at the very least, have their lightsabers, possessions which are so personal as to give you hints about the owner's character.
Two, as far as "Grey Jedi" are concerned, I always assumed it was a holdover from the EU. When the EU books first started coming out in the early '90's, nobody really knew what a Sith was yet (as in, essentially the dark side opposite of a Jedi, we only knew it was a word that Vader was associated with somehow). Force users were classified as "Jedi" or "Dark Jedi," depending on whether they were light side or dark side users (Vader himself was described as a "Dark Jedi" once or twice, if I remember correctly). The term "Jedi" seemed, to me at least, to describe a Force user who had reached a certain level of control over their use of the Force, light or dark. So the idea of a "Grey Jedi" fit in sort of right in the middle, not a (fully light side) Jedi, not completely a Dark Jedi. Of course, it doesn't fit at all in the universe Lucas eventually fleshed out with the prequels, where you could be a masterful light side Force user but not an actual Jedi, or a deadly dark side Force wielder but not an actual Sith.
Haven't seen the video yet but I already love how much I know I'm going to agree with you. Hate this fanfiction bs
My understanding :
Jedi : Know the will of the force, and will follow it.
Sith : Know the Will of the Force and will bend it to their will. Themselves > The will of the force
I guess Gray Jedi is ignoring the will of the force all together?
People see Jedi as anti-life monks, and sith as pure evil. Grey Jedi are fan wish fulfillment, and they don't realize that the Dark side is like super heroin.
A universe where there are ten's of trillions of people and like thirty thousand jedi, you're more likely to die on Narkina 5 than be a below average jedi.
Why would George make fun kid movie into the most dystopian story imaginable? Why kids aren't allowed to imagine being Jedi anymore?
@@АлексейМомот-щ7о i don't think the movies were ever made exclusively for kids, more of an "everyone" experience, definitely with a focus toward teenagers.
But like I said, grey jedi are wish fulfillment. It doesn't makes sense in the lore, and if you wish you were there in that universe you would be a cold robotic child soldier getting cut down by a droid/vader/dying of old age with no life of your own. You basically have to win the lottery twice to be able to be a jedi in the first place, otherwise you would likely be a slave or some lower class citizen living pay check to pay check.
It's just the reality of it all.
The only thing I like tied to this is the idea of purifying a bleeding red lightsaber crystal after winning one from a dark side user, very cool samurai esque concept reforging a broken blade. Possibly a living one.
And the result is a white saber cause its like bleached itself. Kind of like its healed but still exhibits the scar of its past corruption.
Gray Jedi is a copout for not having a a pure “evil” character. Not every show or movie has to have deep nuance characters or antiheroes some things can be very black-and-white.
Hey thor, so ive been going through some old EU novels, and on some occasions, there would be characters that would be on the side of the empire, yet their views on the empire would not be so black and white (the hand of judgment and Paelleon come to mind). That the empire at its core was about bringing peace and security to the galaxy. Im curious as to what you think on these "good imperials" and on a more nuanced look on the empire instead of the absolute evil it is usually portrayed as.
Hey Thor. I was wondering, is Force sensitivity a curse? It seems that having these wonderful gifts that come with it inherently makes you more vulnerable to the dark side than it is for a person who can't feel the Force. The Jedi's solution to this problem is to love everyone unconditionally and never form strong emotional attachments to anything or anyone.
But recently I've been thinking. If you love everyone unconditionally, doesn't that technically mean you don't love anyone?
Do you think that a Force sensitive is forced to choose between the dark side and a life without thrill, personal love or anything that makes you feel alive?
Not for nothing, but these questions were covered in this very video. Though, he didn't talk about the specific abilities of force users and how honing that skill is like any other skill... "if you don't use it, you lose it." A fully trained Jedi will likely never "lose" their ability to wield the force, but an unknowing, untrained force user wouldn't be a real or dangerous threat to the natural order of things to begin with. I'd say it's only a curse to the ones who choose the Darkside. 🙏
You're looking at it wrong. One can act in a Dark Sided way irregardless of the Force (that's why Luke's final test was to not strike down Vader) and all power represents a temptation. The Dark Side is merely an exceptionally easily measured application of human evil.
Also no, you're mistaking emotional mastery for repression. Probably because Legends is very commited to that particular Straw Man.
@@mpnuorva I don't think you've read Legends. They never said ghe Jedi repress themselves. And I never implied they did either. What I'm talking about is attachments and how they're necessary for a person to have a fun life.
A video that goes really in depth on this topic is the foundations of Star Wars by the guy with no username. Highly recommend
Two people shout their philosophy across a room, one says Light! and the other Dark! the casual person in the middle not wanting to judge either person concludes the answer is in the middle not realizing that it is the Organizations that demand the extremes
We agree 100% on this point. I can not stand the concept of a grey Jedi. This is just a sad attempt to justify selfishness at any level. The Jedi are perfect the way they are. If you are not a Jedi you are not a Jedi. It doesn't mean you are grey it means you are flawed. (Like the rest of us) For the Jedi it will always be "Do or do not. There is no try."
It's perfect to accept only babies to be instructed as Jedi? Yeah, right.
I'm going to say it: people who argue for the Grey Jedi and/or the Balance being "a bit of both Dark and Light side" just like the fantasy of a Force user wearing cool black robes, shooting cool lightning, having no rules regarding intimacy, being sometimes edgy AND being considered "good" at the same time.
Essentially, they want to have their cake and eat it, too.
While I personally like the idea of someone being a Sith without being evil, or even a Force User who wants to use the Force but doesn’t want to be part of the Jedi Order (having played that way in The Old Republic), my take on what a Grey Jedi would be is a Jedi that disagrees with some bits of the Code. A Grey Jedi does believe in good and using their powers for good; they just don’t agree with the Council or the Code on certain things. Someone else mentioned Jolee Bindo, and he’s what I think of when I think of a Grey Jedi. He still helps people; he’s still believes in being a peacekeeper. But he didn’t agree with the council, so he more or less left the order.
Also, I will admit to being one of those people who likely misunderstand the Dark Side. I think of it as the savage side of life; fire, storms, hungry predators. Probably because I think of it as powered by passion, and passion is what helps us get things done.
The force: love and protect
The darkside: kill everyone
Grey jedi believers: I think we should find a middle ground
Hey Thor, What do you think of the idea that the Jedi should have freed Shmi? I think the Jedi didn't do it because it's against the law in the Republic, and any participation in the slave trade, even for good reasons, is promoting the slave trade (i.e. the greater good). If Qui-Gon had lived he would have (ie. a good deed is always worth doing).
Good question. Personally I think they didn't for a couple reasons, the biggest being if they got caught freeing slaves the Hutts could decide to make life difficult for the Republic like forcing them to give them reparations or worst case scenario perhaps use it as an excuse to declare war, is freeing one slave worth a war on a galactic scale? That would be the debate not that getting involved promotes the slave trade imo.
The other is I don't think they wanted to give Anakin special treatment. He's a Jedi now and Jedi don't have familial attachments why should he get his mother when none of the other initiates do?
Biggest lore reason from legends is definitely that the Jedi didn’t want to cause a war with the Hutts who had a large number of forces under their control and could have hired the likes of the Trade Federation, Mandalorians, and other gangs and companies and mercenaries to fight for them when the Republic didn’t have a standing army. It’s why in the Fate of the Jedi series the last novel series in Legends Luke’s high council decides enough is enough and the Jedi are going on a crusade to get rid of slavery by the end of the series.
@@CrazyxEnigmaIf Jabba threatens war over one stolen Slave that wasn't even directly serving him, then Jabba's a dense fool. I can see why Aui gon didn't help shmii (even if I think he's still chicken shit for not) goons assassins could've been sent their way before they left Tattooine and caused issues. I just think Palpatine acted like it was out of his hands while anakin toiled in training not to have attachments. Unable to press the matter without proving he needed more training not to care about the matter.
Grey Jedi is just a modern invention by story tellers who do not understand the modern myth.
Grey Jedi == Sloppy Jedi Poor Sith
Attachments can lead to the Dark Side but they can also lead you back to the Light Side
Grey Jedi comes from people that don’t understand morality
I think that when people talk of a grey Jed, they don't mean a Jedi that uses the darkside... but rather anyone using the force and a lightsaber who doesn't follow the rules and doctrines of the Jedi, without being evil.
Like Jolee Bindo from KOTOR.
It’s pretty bizarre how some fans consider Kyle Katarn to be a “grey Jedi”, but that’s not true. True he does use some lightning, but he fully embraces the light side. For crying out loud he tries to keep Jaden in the light when he was tempted to kill Rosh.
Lightning is dark side ability though, how can you embrace the light and use that dark?
@@BSM-vw6cfKyle Katarn is a legends character so I’m assuming there’s some part of legends that sees lightning as not a fully dark side ability. In canon though, it’s only used by dark side users
@@liam-eq4tj in kotor II lightning is part of the dark side category of force abilities yet somehow even when your alignment is light you can use dark side abilities
@@BSM-vw6cf yeah that’s what that game is legends haha they make up the rules as they go
Guys they were games where for game play reasons they let you do stuff because it’s funner. You don’t have to go to the bathroom multiple times a day in games even though that would be more accurate. Also Kyle in books was only mentioned as using lightning as a nod to the games it was clearly never present as a new rule and was just in for fans of the games.
A stupid aside: In one of the TTRPG editions of the Star Wars RPG (the one based on the 'D20 Rules' system), it was set up where a Sith got powerful early on in his 'Levels', but in the end the Jedi would be more powerful (more dice of damage, better 'saves', etc.). In other words, patience would win over the rush for power (and the Dark Side would begin to eat your body as well, as at that time it was thought that the Emperor's appearance was due to his Dark Side connection).
Hey Thor, I agree with this video where you're talking about Jedi encouraged to feel emotion. I got this impression from the prequels and Clone Wars instead of the common held belief that Jedi are meant to be emotionless robots. My question is, should they really be as full of emotion as they are, taking in consideration the Jedi Code?
"There is no emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, there is knowledge. There is no passion, there is serenity. There is no chaos, there is harmony."
My interpretation of the Code is to be very situational i.e (acting on behalf of Jedi, you should put all outward emotion aside for inner peace. However, as we know Jedi can have personal lives where they aren't necessarily acting on behalf of the Jedi, where showing emotion would be more appropriate.) Do you think the Jedi at the height of their power in the prequels have turned away from this code or abiding by it?
There's a GOOD reason why the concept of Grey Jedi is never seen or spoken about in the Star Wars that George Lucas gave us...
IT'S A DUMB IDEA. 🙏
YES. Finaly pushback against this gray jedi stuff, i swear, i remember everytime someone ask "would you be a jedi or a sith" there is someone thinking they are very smart saying "i would be a gray jedi, neither light or dark but balance" and i am like "well, dark side for you then."
Next suggested topic for "Things People Don't Understand About Star Wars:" Explain how Anakin and Vader are NOT literally two different people.
I feel like the fan interest in the idea of Grey Jedi is reflective of the popularity of the Anti-Hero and morally ambiguous characters in media. It also might be that a few would like to see some Jedi use more dark side abilities like force lightning. Disney Star Wars has also muddied things a bit by showing Rey do exactly that (again with no training to do so) and being less than clear about what "balance" in the force actually is with things said by Luke in TLJ.
I find this a helluva lot more believable and palatable than the "modern people hate rules and don't believe in anything greater than themselves" as being the reason I always see whenever anything remotely critical of the Jedi is brought up and discussed here. I'm a pretty cynical person but even that line of thought is too much.
There's a reason why people like Galen Marek and Star Killer so much
I have a question, what about the Nightsisters? I heard they use the dark side in such a way to were they aren't consumed by it, atleast not to the extent of the sith. The nightsisters aren't grey they're full dark side yet they're able to care for each other and see each other as family dispite using the dark side.
The dark side is supposed to corrupt, destroy and kill everything and everyone right? So how are the able to form a coven and a sisterhood?
Is it possible to use the dark side simply for selfish reasons and that's it or is the dark side destined to turn you into an evil killer who wants to take over everything or destroy everything?
The answer is that the Nightsisters were always evil, but there are plenty of good Dathomir witches who use the Force outside the Jedi. Filoni just doesn't know they exist.
@@saberiandream316 I know about the light side Dathomir witches, the thing is the nightsisters who clearly use the dark side are able to care for each other dispite using the dark side.
@@BSM-vw6cf Hat's off to you. Few people in this dumbed down Filoni era even know about them.
@@saberiandream316 I didn't for a while but the nightsisters are my favorite force sensitive organization so I wanted to know their differences between canon and EU/legends. I like both for different reasons but I love how expansive the lore is for the nightsisters and Dathomir in Legends. I couldn't find much only what I was able to read on Wookieepedia, I got Star Wars The Courtship of Princess Leia but haven't gotten far in it yet. Do the nightsisters in Legends act like they do in canon or are they more ruthless like the sith? In legends are they still considering "better" when compared to the Sith?
@@BSM-vw6cf I just wish Filoni and Disney would leave the EU alone. Filoni especially has done enough damage.
Jedi - Doesn’t seek out to hurt people
Sith - Seeks to hurt people
Is it really hard to grasp why there is no in betweeny?
Hey Thor, fun one this time. Do you think Captain America would make a good Jedi, and who else from marvel Canon would you see could also be?
By the definition of the Jedi code not at all, by the definition of what the Jedi strive to accomplish n do he would be great
The idea of a Grey Jedi is more Mary Sue than Rey. Its wish fulfillment - that someone who is "grey" is special and can have ALL the power. Everyone wants to think of themselves as unique so people attracted to the idea of being a "grey jedi" feeds into that.
Lucas has clearly explained the Dark Side. It's not a Yin to the light sides Yang. It's a corruption and perversion of the Force. Palpatine's distorted physical features are a representation of this.
"Once you start down the Dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny - consume you it will". Once rot begins in an apple, it takes over the entire apple until it is completely rotten - there's no going back unless you cut the rotten part out immediately.
This is why I hate the idea of Mace Windu's "dancing on the edge of the Dark Side" and crap like that. It flies in the face of the true nature of the Dark Side.
Jedi do not suppress their emotions - they control them (a big difference) to prevent the rot from setting in.
I think Yoda's Force trials in CW S6 prove clearly there cannot be "Grey" force users - the whole trial he went through emphasized Light vs Dark - it was presented as you can choose one or the other, there is no twilight Force.
Mace Windu is the closest thing we have to a Grey Jedi in the movies. He demonstrates that it’s possible to utilize some aspects of the dark side, and still have enough discipline to not let it consume you
@@anakinlowground5515Mace firmly believed in the light and followed it. He just debated if when using Vaapad he was coming close to the dark by being to aggressive. It was determined he wasn’t but he still chose to not actively train many in it as he felt not enough Jedi could resist the temptation of the aggression.
@@anakinlowground5515 that's just it about Mace - I think he got clouded by the Dark Side the longer he lived & used Vaapad. I think by the time of ROTS, he has already turned Dark without realizing it. He wasn't "Gray" - rather his light had been eclipsed to darkness.
I like how gray Jedi are actually what all those dumbass political "Moderate" memes are, only that unlike politics IRL, they actually see one side say "Genocide" the other saying "No Genocide" and Gray Jedi are like "lets do like half of that lmao"
This has got to be one of the best responses to grey Jedi that I have ever seen. It understands that morality does not function in this way where we need to “touch the darkness in order to better serve the light.” In reality virtue begets virtue, and while there are difficult situations and mitigating circumstances, an evil action cannot be a good.
I think The Clone Wars did a wonderful job of portraying the notion that you can have feelings, and even desires; but that acting on them is an entirely different thing. A true Jedi is able to integrate these into their person, and not be controlled by them or pretend they don’t exist.
The problem is you can't avoid touching the the dark or light, since those arise from emotions core to life.
I also believe that the gray Jedi concept is a ridiculous joke. The Sith are Force users who are willing to bend their principles to get what they want, until eventually they forget what they wanted in the first place and become lost in darkness. They never chose evil and don't even think that they are evil, in their minds they are the "gray Jedi" doing what needs to be done. Without this, the Sith are just characters who dress in dark clothes and do bad things for no particular reason.
Thor Skywalker so tell me when will gray Jedi and dark Jedi become canon what about dark gray Jedi
How about chrome jedi...
Anakin, Dooku, Barris, etc. all thought embracing the dark side for “good” reasons was doable.
Gray jedis are a bad idea. They want to have the good parts of both jedi and siths without the bad stuff like responsibility or being called evil. They are more cherrypicking mary sues then a geniune addition to the lore. Gray jedis are siths in denial.
People look at Qui-Gon or Ahsoka and assume they were grey Jedi, but they're literally prime examples of servants of the force(the light side) what the jedi are MEANT to be. The Jedi didn't fall because they rejected the darkness in them, they fell because they served the republic rather than the force.
Absolutely agree don't like grey jedi or people who can use the darkside without being corrupted by it the jedi I think should like the EU evolve to allow marriage in my opinion though
Mace Windu utilized some aspects of the dark side without it corrupting him
@@anakinlowground5515shatterpoint reflects the dark side of his opponents back at them, never actually using it himself. It’s like a mirror.
@@liam-eq4tjI’m seeing in this comment section that people now believe for some reason that Mace was using the dark when he was one of the most ardent light side users of the prequel era. I’m guessing this has started because everyone beat down the idea that Plo Koon used the dark side when in fact he never did just like Mace. Boy these people cherry pick the smallest things to make this concept work when it doesn’t
@@tjmcfadden5137 the worst part about all of these misconceptions is I have no idea where they came from lol. Like at least grey Jedi is somewhat a thing in some legends content but there’s nothing anywhere showing mace using the dark side. Guess people just create their own theories
@@liam-eq4tj absolutely do man I guess there were a bunch of edgey people reading the same novels as me because in old legends I never got any moral grey characters Star Wars legends was always pretty much clear good and evil. Or if someone started kind of grey they ended up pretty clearly on one side morally by the end
Grey Jedi comes from our culture’s fundamental abandonment of morality. Our culture has adopted selfishness and so people think selfishness is fine and thus grey Jedi. When it’s understood that the light and dark side literally represent good and evil the whole concept of grey Jedi becomes idiotic. In a related note this is also why modern writers have no idea what an anti-hero actually is and fail so spectacularly to write them.
I would say Grey Jedi come from a change in story dichotomy since Star Wars started. People have moved from ‘Good vs Evil’ to ‘Order vs Chaos’, or ‘Harmony vs Discipline’. Because Good vs Evil is clear cut; good is always better than evil, so good will win. The other two give nuance, since you can have good and evil in both sides. And since we understand that too much Order or Chaos is bad, and that Harmony and Discipline are both needed, a middle ground is seen as the best of both worlds.
Hence the Grey Jedi. None of the craziness of the Sith, but not dogmatic like the Jedi.
That’s my theory at least.
@@cybertramon0012 This is really still that fundamental misunderstanding of morality. Our culture today tries to add "nuance" but it really is just a matter of trying to justify evil. The ends justify the means. Our cause is too righteous to be held back by moral good, etc. Absolute good and evil is still there even when they try to remove it or obfuscate it.
The problem is the people in our world don't like doing things that are hard and very often doing good is hard. The reason virtue signaling exists and is so commonplace is because people want to take the easy path and be perceived as good while doing evil. In our culture doing good is very hard, you rarely get credit, there's many people who want to destroy you(look at how The Sound of Freedom was treated), and it often results in being ostracized.
Nobody declares themselves evil, they always have a justification in their mind for their actions. So they take the quick and easy path, they do evil but say no no I'm not as bad as a sith, and besides it was necessary to do this to accomplish my goals, there's nuance to it, I'm more of a grey jedi. They reality is a grey jedi is just evil.
I agree the concept of grey Jedi is dumb it's just a power fantasy from fans who want to be sith and use the dark side without the consequences
No Grey Jedi are about accepting moderation over extremism. Jedi and Sith both represent extremes.
Hey Thor,
I am curious about why people support the grey Jedi theory because, to me, this concept adds nothing to the story of Star Wars. Does Anakin take a different path if he were a grey Jedi? No, he wouldn't. In fact, I think he would have fallen to the Dark Side faster. Grey Jedi are not some catch-all cure to me; grey Jedi are just uncommitted Sith.
Oops...
I like grey jedi more as an “apathetic” force rather than “they’re ‘balanced’ therefore good”
Hey Thor,
Four thoughts in lieu of a college essay response for convenience's sake:
1) Given everything you've said in this video, what is your opinion on the fact that Luke Skywalker's New Jedi Order did away with the ban on marriage and allowed their Masters to study the Dark Side under controlled conditions? Isn't the whole point of the NJO that it was an improvement upon the previous Order's weak points?
2) From all the accounts I have come across, Yoda's interaction with his own inner Dark Side that you cite here seems to be the exception for his time rather than the norm. The Clone Wars era Jedi were being taught from childhood on to view the Dark Side as "the boogeyman" and had no practical experience in dealing with it. Perhaps, if Bariss Offee and Anakin had more experience with engaging with and then resisting the Dark Side, they might have made better life choices.
3) We often quote Yoda from Episode 5 to assert the concept of "The Dark Side is the quick and easy path", but doesn't Bane's Sith Order and it's grand master plan's slow but eventual fulfillment under Sidious directly refute this? The Sith demonstrated a millennia of patience, self-control, and attention to detail, while the Jedi could not detect the Dark Lord sitting on the other side of the table, jumped head first into using a slave army of living beings provided to them under increasingly questionable circumstances (they learned Dooku had a hand in its creation later!), and ran in head first to arrest Sidious on Anakin's word without setting up any contingencies and/or gathering any hard evidence to justify their arrest of the head of state. One could argue that these are all exceptions to the rule, but I argue that this points to Yoda being an unreliable narrator regarding the Jedi and Sith's relationship with each other and the Force, and given that Obi Wan lied to Luke (irrespective of whether he was justified or not) I feel that this is very plausible.
4) The (Clone Wars era and Old Republic era) Jedi teach that attachments are forbidden, but they only seem to apply that concept to attachment to individuals or possessions. The background lore seems to indicate that a number of Jedi Masters such as Mace and Ki Adi were attached to the institution of the Order and/or the letter of the Jedi Code, as opposed to Qui Gon for example, but one could even argue that Qui Gon was attached to following the Will of the Force given that his actions in Episode 1 demonstrate an "ends justify the means" approach (gambling with other people's property, ditching Obi Wan to secure Anakin as a Padawan without any forewarning, etc.).
1) Legends worldbuilt between trilogies and then after PT came out simply stated it was an improvement, while also severely Straw Manning what the PT -Jedi were about.
2) And there's about half of the Straw Man. The whole point of Jedi tradition is to make you resist the Dark side, Anakin didn't do it because he thought he knew better.
3) Yoda quote is from Lucas. Bane's alleged plan is from Drew Karpyshyn. When Lucas was asked about the Rule of Two he spoke of very different dynamics (Aprentice finding an ally to get an edge over the Master) and importantly *no overarching plan* just every Darksider wanting to be the one on top.
4) No. Just no. Everything you say is wrong.
@@dutchrjenJEDI ARE ALLOWED TO FEEL EMOTIONS. Sorry to shout but the video even says this they just can’t be ruled by them. A dark side user is ruled by their emotions. It’s still about doing good or doing evil and pulling yourself back from it or committing to these actions. I’m sorry but it sounds like your the one who doesn’t understand the force or at the least you have your own interpretation of it and even in your comment your saying how the franchise should change for it to work for you more.
@@dutchrjen The light side is following the will of the force, trying to help those in your daily life, not covering the power to yourself and understanding its dangers. You can be happy sad in love and more but when it comes to doing the right thing you do it.
The dark side is using the force how you want to not letting the force flow as it naturally does. When there is something you want to do that you know is bad like killing someone because they cut you in line and just doing it. It’s taking selfish actions for yourself
The Jedi don’t actively want to kill, Sith just don’t care if they will kill or not. All force users are living beings so they feel emotions that’s why you try and not be controlled by them just because something will make you happy doesn’t mean you should do it because it will make someone sad. These are basic concepts of good and evil. You seem to be arguing like if a Jedi kills but is emotionless about it it’s fine when a jedi would try and not kill but would do it if they had to. The simplest way I can explain this is good is good bad is bad if you know it’s bad you should try and not do it. The biggest add on of the force is just letting the force act naturally is the light side using the dark side is forcing the force free to do what you want personally. This is why a big Jedi term is letting the force flow through you so you can follow it.
Whatever man I’m just gonna tell something very simple to you. You don’t actually like Star Wars and are here for some other reason. I implore you to look past yourself and either find a different reason to be part of the Star Wars community or move on because not only do I think you disagree with everything in Star Wars I don’t think your even happy about it so I don’t get the point. And the essay comments aren’t helping you nor is mentioning your rank anyone with a decent idea of morality knows what war crimes are there was no reason for the conversation to mention it.
@@dutchrjen what are those things people hate that Disney didn't do? And which Yoda we are talking about?
I'm so over this "Grey" Jedi concept. Grey Jedi aren't a thing no matter how people try to spin it.
Now you know how I feel about 'libertarians.'
What's wrong with libertarianism 🤷🏾♂️lol I'm a libertarian
Does this mean Ron Swanson would be a Gray Jedi?
Common misconception: For balance in the Force there needs to be the Dark Side and practitioners of it to counter the Light Side*.
Better analogy: The Force is like a living body, and while it is healthy, it is balanced. The Dark Side is like a cancer, destroying that body, destroying that balance.
Grey Jedi are basically Jedi with the flu!
*The phrase 'Light Side' is never mentioned in George Lucas era Star Wars because this dichotomy doesn't exist.
People think dark and light sides are different sets of powers, and to a certain extend they are but really it's more of a philosophical point of view. Jedi or light side individuals use the force to benefit others, they try not to cause harm but can and will if necessary. Sith or dark sided people will use the full extent available at all time for whatever reason they like. So if a supposed grey jedi uses the force to impose their point of view, they are not grey at all, they are dark sided. You cannot use both sides at the same time, because they are mutually exclusive. An individual can be in the middle for a time but will be drawn to the dark side because it is addictive, and will only be able to do basic force things in the short period where they are unsure where they stand, because both light and dark need dedication.
No one ever talks about the reverse, a "gray Sith". In theory they are the same but people don't relate to (or want to be) a selfish person who does good things. They'd rather fantasize about being a good person who is OK with using their anger and hate for the greater good.
I wonder if there could be a grey Jedi but in a much different definition. Cause you can be in the middle of good and bad, with the Dark siding be the most dangerous temptation you can simply and easily be in the middle of that, has some who’s had to battle against the hardest temptations and addictions you have to constantly stay on top cause even the smallest slip up can lead to a full relapse. That could be the more truer definition of a grey Jedi. Someone who knows in the true truest form the temptations of the dark side and helps other stay clear from it.
Also if to add something when I hear people say it’s like being on the fence. In church when I was younger we had a lesson where there was 2 sides Jesus and Satans, and separating the 2 sides was a fence. There was a guy he didn’t know what side to choose so he stood on the fence and when both groups left he was contempt and happy with his decision, until Satan walked up to him telling him to join him, but the guy said no cause he chose the fence, then Satan revealed to the guy that he owns the fence.
I know meth is bad without trying it. I might personally know how meth feels if I take it but I’d still come out of it knowing meth is bad and now having a possible itch I want to scratch again. What did I gain from the experience? Sitting on the fence close to the dark doesn’t make me understand it in a significantly better way than just knowing it’s bad and steering clear of it. That’s what Thor already said. You already know it’s dangerous you don’t have to make excuses to tempt yourself more closer to it so you may briefly pat yourself on the back more from coming back. It’s just reckless and dangerous.
Jedi are allowed to have emotions, but they cannot be ruled by them.
The grey Jedi is for young edgy kids around 14-25, who want to be good guys but can use bad guy powers.
There are no such things as "good guy powers" or "bad guy powers." To even suggest such a thing is bad storytelling, no way around that.
They’re meant servants of the Force, not a singular entity. They protect what’s necessary for peace or balance and spiritual harmony. Similarly, the Church is meant to serve God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, not their government