Thanks for the review. Interesting that the headroom is an issue. I'm car shopping, and this is on my list to check out. How have your seats been for long trips? I watched one review and that reviewer said that on a long trip, the seats became uncomfortable after about 90 minutes. Since this is difficult to assess during a "test drive" hearing from owners is very helpful. Passenger seats have become a pet peeve. Makers throw on things like nav systems, heated REAR seats, and panoramic sunroofs, but if you are fortunate enough to even get power on the passenger seat, it is near impossible in non-luxury brands (and maybe even in lux brands) to find a passenger seat with same number of adjustments as the driver's. Is it too much to ask for lumbar support for the passenger too? On a long trip, it seems likely that people might switch drivers, so why notlumbar support on both? I think a couple of adults over 40 might have some kind of back issues. :) Sounds like you are well-aware of the Highlander capability for towing, but the 5K might be for the non-hybrid. Not sure if the Woodland edition of the hybrid gives you more towing than the other trim levels in the RAV4 hybrid. On the Subaru side, you can get up to 3500 lbs towing with some Wilderness models or the Outback XT. (Of course, no PHEV and no hybrid). Thanks for sharing.
The 2023's of the Prime updated the passenger seat a little to allow vertical adjustment. The drivers seat in the prime is super comfortable for long trips, but as you said the passenger seats doesn't have the same level of adjustability and I don't like it as much. Still.. it's a really comfortable cruiser for long trips. I have a lot of back issues.. and I really like it
Oh yeah.. I forgot that one !! Good one for sure!! I still use it for lining up my hitch.. but such low quality. Hoping that was fixed in the 2023 model.
Is the passenger seat manual or power? I know it is manual in the 2023 SE Trim, and probably the XSE without Premium-Pkg as well. If it is Power, doesn't it go up/down?. It is problematic, not only for tall people, but for short people as well. I was interested in the SE, but a family member is 5', and it was difficult for her to get into the passenger seat.
In my area, they had some Primes on the lot. The regular hybrids were months away, if you ordered one. Plus they would sell me a Prime for MSRP. The hybrids were thousands over sticker, so the price difference was closer. Another consideration for me was that the Prime is made in Japan, and I've had other Toyotas made in Japan that were trouble free. The hybrids for the US are made in the US. The one Camry I had, made in the US was constantly in need of $300 oxygen sensors. Might just be a fluke, but you do think about these things. I bought the Prime SE and am happy I did.
I am considering ordering a 2023 Prime XSE and, fortunately, 2023 updates have addressed almost all of these items. Toyota probably sensed that the departure of tax credits would raise buyers' expectations a bit because the Prime is a VERY expensive vehicle. In fact, it's hard to justify buying the Prime at all, considering how great the regular hybrid already is, at $9000 less.
Yes, it is kind of a difficult call to decided how much driving you will do on pure electric over the life of the vehicle. But even if I take my total annual miles and assume half on electric, it's still a long time before a financial ROI makes sense. I do like the quicker 0-60 time and allegedly quieter interior (due to insulated windshield and front side glass). I'm in the shopping phase, so still shuffling through the scenarios. Looks like I could practically buy a hybrid Limited for less than a Prime SE. And they are difficult to come by. That said, I'm still intrigued by the idea that I can run into town and back on all electric. Not so for the work commute. I need to get some seat time in a Prime. Drove a hybrid in XLE trim just to get a feel for the drivetrain and other driving dynamics. That felt pretty utilitarian as far as interior appointments but I appreciated the drivetrain. We had a second gen Prius fora while, so are familiar with the "genre". I see your post is a year ago, so I hope you were able to reach a satisfactory result.
The reason the R4P is limited to 2,500 pounds towing is that the Toyota HSD should be thought of as an electric vehicle with a range-extending gasoline engine. The software in the ECU is programmed to use the MG2 and MG3 electric motors to propel the car as much as possible, to maximise fuel economy, and to run the gasoline engine as little as possible. Where this is an issue for towing, is that running the car at it's maximum GVWR can build up excessive heat in the stator windings. The MG2 stator is continuously sprayed with oil, but when you are towing a heavy trailer on an upgrade, and perhaps running 70+ kilowatts of power to the MG2 stator, it's going to get very hot, very quickly. By comparison, running lightly loaded and not towing a trailer, the car can climb the same hill only needing 25 kw of power. On flat, level ground at 55 mph, the car can cruise on only 12 kw. So you see that towing a trailer puts a huge strain on the MG2 cooling system. Burning out that stator would be at least a $5,000 repair. How hot does the stator actually get, you ask? I run Hybrid Assistant on my Prius Prime, which has a 71 hp MG2 motor. Hybrid Assistant draws data from the ECM computer via the OBD-II connector, and it shows several internal temperatures: engine coolant, transaxle oil, MG1 and MG2 stator temp, and traction battery temp. On flat and level highways, the engine coolant averages 194°F, the MG2 stator 185°F, and the Inverter 90°F. On long uphill grades, the engine coolant climbs to 204°F, and the stator and inverter temps climb 10 to 15 degrees. It's really not a good idea to tow trailers with any light-duty EV or PHEV; they are all very vulnerable to stator overheat damage. Your best tow vehicle is still a pickup truck with a diesel engine and manual transmission. The lack of headroom is because your car has the moon roof. These reduce headroom by 2-1/2" in the Rav4, and this is why mine is the SE trim without the moon roof. I'm 6'-2", and my head actually hits the roof in any Rav4 with the moon roof.
Thanks so much for sharing this valuable information. Where did you get the Hybrid Assistant device? I'd be very curious about running this on my RAV4 Prime. Yes.. that SE Trim without Moonroof is the way to go for those that want additional headroom. I specifically called this out in many of my other videos. Again.. thanks so much for this valuable info!! We are planning on getting a new 2024 tacoma with the Hybrid Max powertrain. This has.a rated towing capacityof 6,000 lbs plus it has a turbo engine, so should be pretty good for towing our small little A-Liner Trailer.
@@sharipiehl2562 - I already have a pickup truck, a 1998 Dodge Cummins diesel, standard cab long bed. It's only got 106,000 original miles, so it'll probably last as long as I'll be alive, so I have no plans to ever buy a Tacoma. If I ever needed something with equivalent towing capacity to the Tacoma, I'd look for a V6 4Runner or a Sequioa. They don't incur the cost penalty of mandatory commercial license plates in California as the Tacoma, and every other pickup truck, does in this state. This Rav4 is being purchased for a couple of different reasons: My Prius is a great people-mover, but it's cargo carrying capacity is too limited, especially for anything tall, because of the long, shallow slope of the rear hatch, and the loss of 11" of cargo depth to the traction battery. The car sits so low to the ground that I guess it was impossible for Toyota's engineers to put the battery under the passenger floor, like most other EV's do, so it's under the cargo deck, and thus the Prius Prime has a cargo area that's 11" less deep than the regular Prius. Then there's the comfort issue; because the Prius sits so low, it's getting hard for me to climb in and out of it as I approach "old age" (I'm almost 67). The driver's seat in the Rav4 Prime is about 8" higher. The Prius doesn't have "My Room" mode, like the Rav4 Prime does, so when I am sitting at a public charger, and it's 105°F in the direct sun, it's miserable. The Rav4 Prime has about a 15 mile EV range advantage over the Prius Prime. I can equip a Rav4 with all-terrain tires for use off-pavement; not an option on the Prius.
Came here for a review on rav4 hybrid prime, saw a sweet Nissan GTR in the garage. You have my respect sir 🙏 that prime suits you better if you need the extra power and great fuel efficiency. More practical for your 2 dogs and take the gtr out for a nice weekend or office work ride 😊
You can upgrade to the eibach rear springs like I did, and it will effectively increase your tongue weight limit to 400lb+, and it will help tremendously with towing stability. The ecvt isnt whats loud. it's the engine. The ecvt is arguable more durable than conventional transmissions (8 speed etc) Ecvt are worlds apart from regular cvts driven by a belt.
I had thought about that. I contacted Eibach with some questions and never got a response. Someone else mentioned the towing limit rating was due to the heat being generarated in the MG2 Stator when towing on uphill grades can get excessive when at maximum GVWR or tow rating. I was considering getting Hybrid Assistant software to monitor the temps.. but am likely getting a Tacoma Max next year for towing.
Thank you for the video. I have a Tacoma TRD Sport 4x4 and Prius V that I want to sell and get one of these. None of these issues are a deal breaker for me. Does your moonroof open all the way for fresh air or slide for a view? Does that dog cage behind the head rest leave a dent in the roof? Thank you
The moonroof doesn't open up all the way, but it does open (about halfway). The barrier does not leave an indent in the roof liner. We're actually planning on getting a new 2024 Tacoma Hybrid Max and will likely trade in our Prime so that we have a better tow vehicle. Thanks for watching !!
What is very surprising Daryl is the fact that My 2022 RAV4 Prime SE has the LED lights as well as the backlit window switches. I also installed blue back lighting behind the door handles. The ceramic coating is coming in March . I put air horns on mine to keep Semi's in their own lane when passing as the old Beep-Beep Toyota horn is absolutely puny. I also installed the hatch door LED lights that are absolutely wonderful. I replaced the boring polished with grey paint OEM wheels with Chrome OEM wheels and much higher performance wider 245/55/18 tires which when matched with the Hard Race front and rear anti sway bars that are coming will complete the cornering overhaul that led Alex on Autos to give the RAV4 Prime a B- for handling . All other grades where an or A+. I have combined a Chevrolet Volt seat frame with the RAV4 Prime Mechanical passenger front seat and it can now set on the floor or raise your head to nearly the ceiling. I Love the Cloth interior as it is NOT COLD in winter and more importantly not a Betty Crocker cooking mistake of burnt buns in the southern Nevada summer heat. Other than that I'm also changing the trim color under the rear lift gate window to match the other Piano Black trim exactly as the XSE with just silver is just as boring or worse than the SE same as the rest of the body color. In my case Supersonic Red.. Thanks again for your help in me and my sister getting RAV4 Primes at MSRP from A-1 Toyota.
Well, there is also a lack of backlit buttons for the rear-hatch closing button and for the overhead buttons (for the cabin lighting) -- in my 2021 RAV4 Prime. And I think that the lack of back-lit stalks is a huge issue because you can't see the headlight or windshield-wiper settings in the dark.
Did you have to make any mods to the fender well liner to accomodate the larger tires? I'd like to get slightly larger and taller tires to gain a bit more ground clearance.
@@laura-ann.0726 Laura, If you look closely at my post you will see that my side profile on my G-Max tires is 55 which means the height of the tire is 55% of the 245mm width and therefore compared to stock SE tire height is is almost exactly the same . It literally is within .25 mm which is as close to identical as you can get therefore there is no difference to my speedometer at all. The width from stock 225mm wide to 245mm width on high performance tires is literally only about 3/4 of an inch wider if your not familiar with the metric system 25.4 mm is one inch so literally they are (.7874 inches)wider.Therefore there is no need to modify any thing at all. The difference in handling when combined with my Hard Race Anti -Sway bars is priceless.
Window switches (driver and passenger) and side mirror switch are all lit up now on my 2023 Rav4 Prime XSE. Also has full wireless carplay. You need to upgrade to a 2023 lol. BUT, passenger seat is too high still. My 5'6" wife even hit her head getting out! Any fixes for that you know of?
@@GoldenK9Campers You can now buy the Power adjustable Seat frame from Toyota for thousands of $ or make, like I did, a hybrid with a Chevrolet Volt which if you have ever set in one is probably the most adjustable manual seat ever created. The seat can set on the floor or go so high that you are hitting your head on the sealing. My wife hated the way Toyota had the seat so high as she has a very long trunk and has a hard time getting in and out of the OEM design.
Well, there is also a lack of backlit buttons for the rear-hatch closing button and for the overhead buttons (for the cabin lighting) -- in my 2021 RAV4 Prime. And I think that the lack of back-lit stalks is a huge issue because you can't see the headlight or windshield-wiper settings in the dark. Have they fixed these problems for 2023 models yet?
Owner of a 2021 RAV4 Prime since Nov. 2020 here, now with > 25k miles on the odometer. Out of your ten gripes, I seriously only have problems with your No. 2 (lack of backlit buttons, incl. the rear-hatch closing button, the overhead buttons for cabin lights, and the stalks for headlights and wipers -- in addition to the door buttons) and your No. 7 (back-up sound). We don't tow or use a phone app for any of our cars. Yeah, it would be nice to have the passenger front seat have electric controls, but our bigger beef is that both front seats are uncomfortable for long road trips, so we tend to take our Volvo or Porsche on longer road trips (even though they get poorer gas mileage). Navigation has always been an issue in Toyotas, so we got the SE without navigation and just use Apple CarPlay off our iPhone; not ideal, but not a deal-breaker, either. The benefits of the CVT drivetrain (which I'm not crazy about) outweigh the negatives, because you have fewer parts/belts to fail on you, so I'm fine with that aspect.
We actually find the seats to be super comfortable. We take road trips all the time. I guess every "body" is different. I also like the pro's of the CVT.. i'll sure take it over those belt driven one's.. Toyota makes them super durable.
I'm disappointed in that the SE doesn't have built-in Navigation like my much less expensive 2019 Prius Prime has. For $44,000, even the base trim Rav4 Prime ought to have navigation, IMO. I'm hoping that I can run MapFactor Navigator off of an Android phone in the Rav4 Prime SE, but I won't know for sure until I take delivery on July 18th. Toyota has a troubled history of problems with both Apple Car Play and Android Auto connectivity in the 2020 and 2021 models that had it, but maybe they've solved the problems in the current 2023 models?
@@laura-ann.0726 The maps and navigation through Apple CarPlay work fine in our 2021 RAV4 Prime. That said, I've used CarPlay in numerous different brands, and it's way over-rated as a good app for cars. But we rarely have a problem getting to our destination ok in our RAV4 Prime with CarPlay navigation piped from iPhone into car's infotainment system.
I could see where those would all be bothersome, especially on such a high-end, high tec, high priced vehicle. Non-lit switches in the doors? Good grief, our '95 Audi Quattro Avant had that, as did earlier year models. Don't hesitate to hand polish out the hood scratches. You'll find great products for this at your local auto parts stores, especially if you have a NAPA. Meguiar's products are top notch, and are numbered for easy reference. You could start with something like a #2 with a soft towel and just go back and forth, in a straight line (not in circles!), in line with the car...in other words, front to back, and NOT side-to-side. Then follow up with a finer polish, and then use their #7 glaze on the entire hood, followed by their wax. Pull it into the garage so the paint is cool to the touch, prior to doing this and I think you'll have a nice result.
You can tow 3300lbs on a Rav 4 Prime in the UK. It's just American regulations that drop it down. Also the headroom is higher when you do not have a sunroof.
The headroom issue is why I have had to wait so long (more than 2 years now) to get a Rav4 Prime. Finding one without the moonroof option in the US, especially in the Western States region, is nigh-impossible. I'm going to have to travel all the way across the country, from California to Baltimore, MD, to get mine. I've sat in a couple of Rav4 Primes with the moonroof option, and my head hits the ceiling in them, unless I lean the seat back, and then I can't reach the steering wheel. So my only option is an SE without the moonroof, and very few of these are arriving in the States.
Great reviews, love your non-sales themed honesty. The towing... not the best choice nor commentary. Certainly not a lead-in on annoying things. Sorry but was more surprised you thought it should have a higher towing rating.
Yeah.. the towing rating was certainly a stretch. I'm just annoyed that the RAV4 TRD Offroad which has the dinky 4 cylinder only engine gets a 3,500 lb towing capacity. Wish they had some sort of upgrade path.. but I looked into it a little more and they add a transmission cooler, beefed up suspension, and the torque vectoring AWD. So they'd need to change a lot on the prime to get it up there. Thanks for watching and keeping me honest !!
True.. It's got a crazy amount of torque though when you're using the electric motors. But if just using electric... it will eat it up too fast when going uphill, and when using hybrid mode the engine will rev like a typical toyota 4 cylinder cvt. It still tows nicely though. They are coming out with a grand highlander that has a 4 cylinder, plus turbo, plus hybrid. It will tow 5,000 lbs.. should be really nice.
In any Hybrid car, the most critical limiting factor on towing isn't the power or torque output, it's TEMPERATURE. At least half of the power output for the Rav4 Prime comes from the MG2 and MG3 motors, which are 3-phase synchronous, approximately 500 volts, with permanent magnet rotors. At 65 mph on flat terrain, lightly loaded, the MG2 stator is drawing about 20 kilowatts, which is 40 amperes at 500 volts. On a 6% uphill grade, the power draw will double, to 40 kilowatts (80 amperes). Now add a 2500 pound trailer, and the power demand will jump to the maximum that the MG2 motor and inverter can produce, about 133 kw, which is 266 amperes at 500 volts. Pushing that much current through the MG2 stator windings will get them very hot, very quickly. And it will also heat up the traction battery. Maximum power should only be used for brief sprints, like passing a slow-moving RV or semi-truck on a hill, not for sustained long slogs. If you overheat and burn out the stator or inverter in a Prius Prime or Rav4 Prime, you are looking at a $5000 repair bill. If you do have to use a Rav4 Prime to tow a trailer, I would say that it's mandatory to use an OBD-II scanner and run Hybrid Assistant on your cell phone, so that you can monitor the internal temperatures of the traction battery, Inverter and MG2/MG3 stators in real time, and stop the vehicle if any of the system temps climb more than a few percent above average values.
@@laura-ann.0726 Where did you order your scanner and hybrid assistant from? I probably should get that.. if for nothing else would make a very interesting towing video.
Hm.. It doesn't really bother me much? I get more annoyed with the gas gauge, always telling me i'm about to run out of fuel.. when I "know" I have about 3 gallons left.
@@GoldenK9Campers Fair enough, I find it to be extremely flimsy and is already starting to break on mine (doesn't stay open). Additionally I wished it covered the port when open for snow. Currently after snow I have to clean it out and it doesn't always close if I can't get all the snow out....
@@NickMuzzio Hm.. yeah I notice that sometimes it's hard to close.. I know I closed it..and then it's still open.. argh.. Luckily I live where it doesn't rain/show a lot. I dislike the fuel filler port much more than the charging port though.. That sucker is flimsy.
@@GoldenK9Campers - My Prius Prime has a very conservative fuel gauge - when the low fuel warning light comes on, which is supposed to be when there's only 1 gallon remaining, I usually find that there's at least 2-1/2 gallons, assuming that the 11.4 gallon tank capacity is accurate. Sometime, I'd like to completely drain the fuel tank, or just run the car completely out of gas, and see what my individual car's fuel tank actually holds. The Rav4 Prime is supposed to have a 14 gallon tank, and I'll find out in a couple of weeks when I take delivery of mine.
The 2023 fixed a lot of things that annoyed me. It's a great car. There is really nothing on the market like it. Fast, Fuel Efficient, No range anxiety on trips. If I had to do it over.. would definitely get our Prime.
Most of the negative points in this video are minor things that many people would never even notice. The Rav4 Prime has so many amazing positive attributes, than the lack of lighted switches on the door handle shouldn't be a turn-off. If it only had a tiny fuel tank with 250 mile range, or a wimpy air conditioner that couldn't keep the interior comfortable in 105°F summer weather, those would be major annoyances.
@laura-ann.0726 Hey, now that you mention it, I'm about to take delivery of a new RAV4 Prime in 6 weeks, and one of the things I've been most concerned about is how well it does in cooling the cabin quickly. My old 2009 V6 RAV4 absolutely freezes you out and it's probably the best AC I've ever had in a vehicle, so I'm coming from something that is truly impressive and I'm worried that I'm going to be very disappointed. Am I?
@@OtherSteve - Here's my honest assessment of the a/c in my Rav4 Prime. Our 2019 Prius Prime and our 2020 Corolla Hybrid both have better, colder a/c, with more powerful fans. The weak a/c is one of the few "features" of the 2023 Rav4 Prime that I wish was better. I think I know why Toyota put such a lackluster blower fan in the Rav4 Prime: noise reduction. When running at max speed, the fans in my Prius and the Corolla were both loud enough to make it kinda hard to carry on a conversation between the driver and passenger(s). The Rav4 Prime's fan, at max speed, is about equivalent to the Corolla fan at 80%. Part of the problem with my Rav4 Prime is the color: the exterior paint color is "Blueprint", a very dark, almost purplish blue. In low light conditions, it looks black. So the exterior sheet metal of the car absorbs probably 95% of the sunlight falling on it, and re-radiates that energy into the interior of the car as heat. As if that wasn't already a problem in hot summer weather, practically every surface in the car is black: the seat upholstery, the dashboard, the headliner, the floor mats - black, black, black. I would never have bought any car with such a dark paint color and all-black interior by choice, but as you probably know, Rav4 Primes have been more or less "unobtainium" from the day Toyota announced them. I started looking for one 2-1/2 years ago, and finally settled for this one, because at least it was an SE without the moonroof option (I hate glass roofs on cars). Finding an SE without the moonroof is damn near impossible; I had to fly clear across the country (California to Maryland) to buy this one, then drive it 3,200 miles back across to get it home. Just doing this added $1,100 to the cost of the car: $480 worth of gasoline, and 5 nights in hotels. Oh, the road trip was fun, but I would rather have been able to buy one in California and save the $1,100 for a vacation trip to somewhere nicer than Interstate 40 across the Texas Panhandle. So if your Rav4 Prime happens to be White exterior paint, or at least the light gray color they are also available in, you will probably not have quite so big a "hit" on the a/c performance as the dark blue paint on mine costs me. But bottom line, the Rav4 Prime has a pretty weak fan motor. It's quieter, but I'd rather have the option of a really powerful fan when it's blazing hot in the car.
@@laura-ann.0726 Thanks Laura-Ann, mine is going to be the silver sky metallic color, so hopefully that's light enough to mitigate some of these concerns. However it does sound like I'm going to be disappointed in the air conditioning which makes me a little bit sad. I wish there was some other option than the dark interior seat colors, and my vehicle lacks the premium package so it does not have the ventilated seats, though I've heard they're only marginally helpful considering it doesn't actually cool the air before recirculating it. My XSE seats are the mixed media seats, which include the cloth inserts at the lower back and butt area. I've heard it's still mostly softex, and it may not be any cooler, but I hope it's comfortable given the circumstances. Appreciate the reply. I'm paying over 50K for mine total still, so I really hope it turns out to be the car I want!
@@GoldenK9Campers - My Prius Prime is the best car I've ever owned in my 50 years of having a driver's license (I've owned at least 25 cars, vans, and pickup trucks in my lifetime), and I expect that the Rav4 Prime I'm going to take delivery of on July 18th will surpass my Prius by a substantial margin. I'll be sacrificing 15 mpg of fuel economy, but gaining a lot more versatility.
@@laura-ann.0726 Congrats on the prime. You're going to love it. Great job with getting an SE without the moonroof. That's hard to get. We we're actually looking at that exact model to give our dogs more headroom in the cargo area. I had one lined up in New Hampshire.. but ended up getting the Pano Monroof instead... which gives decent headroom compared to the standard moonroof.
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Thanks for the review. Interesting that the headroom is an issue. I'm car shopping, and this is on my list to check out. How have your seats been for long trips? I watched one review and that reviewer said that on a long trip, the seats became uncomfortable after about 90 minutes. Since this is difficult to assess during a "test drive" hearing from owners is very helpful. Passenger seats have become a pet peeve. Makers throw on things like nav systems, heated REAR seats, and panoramic sunroofs, but if you are fortunate enough to even get power on the passenger seat, it is near impossible in non-luxury brands (and maybe even in lux brands) to find a passenger seat with same number of adjustments as the driver's. Is it too much to ask for lumbar support for the passenger too? On a long trip, it seems likely that people might switch drivers, so why notlumbar support on both? I think a couple of adults over 40 might have some kind of back issues. :) Sounds like you are well-aware of the Highlander capability for towing, but the 5K might be for the non-hybrid. Not sure if the Woodland edition of the hybrid gives you more towing than the other trim levels in the RAV4 hybrid. On the Subaru side, you can get up to 3500 lbs towing with some Wilderness models or the Outback XT. (Of course, no PHEV and no hybrid). Thanks for sharing.
The 2023's of the Prime updated the passenger seat a little to allow vertical adjustment. The drivers seat in the prime is super comfortable for long trips, but as you said the passenger seats doesn't have the same level of adjustability and I don't like it as much. Still.. it's a really comfortable cruiser for long trips. I have a lot of back issues.. and I really like it
@@GoldenK9Campers Thanks for that info!
I went with the NX 450+ because at lest half of the stuff you brought up are addressed in the NX. with a larger screen, it's quieter way better paint.
VHS quality back up camera in my Prime is a favorite feature of mine!
Oh yeah.. I forgot that one !! Good one for sure!! I still use it for lining up my hitch.. but such low quality. Hoping that was fixed in the 2023 model.
You're trying to watch movies?!
Upgraded my driver door switches for lighted as well as the interior LED's. Wet sandpaper at 2500-3000 grit can take the scratches out on the hood
Thanks so much !!!!
Is the passenger seat manual or power? I know it is manual in the 2023 SE Trim, and probably the XSE without Premium-Pkg as well. If it is Power, doesn't it go up/down?. It is problematic, not only for tall people, but for short people as well. I was interested in the SE, but a family member is 5', and it was difficult for her to get into the passenger seat.
The 2023's have seats that go up and down. I think even the SE has power seats.
@@GoldenK9Campers : Thank you very much.
In my area, they had some Primes on the lot. The regular hybrids were months away, if you ordered one. Plus they would sell me a Prime for MSRP. The hybrids were thousands over sticker, so the price difference was closer. Another consideration for me was that the Prime is made in Japan, and I've had other Toyotas made in Japan that were trouble free. The hybrids for the US are made in the US. The one Camry I had, made in the US was constantly in need of $300 oxygen sensors. Might just be a fluke, but you do think about these things. I bought the Prime SE and am happy I did.
Very interesting trends. Thanks so much.
Where is your area? I'm looking, too, but don't see many primes in our area. Thank you for your comments.
I am considering ordering a 2023 Prime XSE and, fortunately, 2023 updates have addressed almost all of these items. Toyota probably sensed that the departure of tax credits would raise buyers' expectations a bit because the Prime is a VERY expensive vehicle. In fact, it's hard to justify buying the Prime at all, considering how great the regular hybrid already is, at $9000 less.
I agree.. the Hybrid is a great option. But for us we needed the great towing capacity. Also not using gas on my wife's daily commute is nice as well.
Yes, it is kind of a difficult call to decided how much driving you will do on pure electric over the life of the vehicle. But even if I take my total annual miles and assume half on electric, it's still a long time before a financial ROI makes sense. I do like the quicker 0-60 time and allegedly quieter interior (due to insulated windshield and front side glass). I'm in the shopping phase, so still shuffling through the scenarios. Looks like I could practically buy a hybrid Limited for less than a Prime SE. And they are difficult to come by. That said, I'm still intrigued by the idea that I can run into town and back on all electric. Not so for the work commute. I need to get some seat time in a Prime. Drove a hybrid in XLE trim just to get a feel for the drivetrain and other driving dynamics. That felt pretty utilitarian as far as interior appointments but I appreciated the drivetrain. We had a second gen Prius fora while, so are familiar with the "genre". I see your post is a year ago, so I hope you were able to reach a satisfactory result.
The reason the R4P is limited to 2,500 pounds towing is that the Toyota HSD should be thought of as an electric vehicle with a range-extending gasoline engine. The software in the ECU is programmed to use the MG2 and MG3 electric motors to propel the car as much as possible, to maximise fuel economy, and to run the gasoline engine as little as possible. Where this is an issue for towing, is that running the car at it's maximum GVWR can build up excessive heat in the stator windings. The MG2 stator is continuously sprayed with oil, but when you are towing a heavy trailer on an upgrade, and perhaps running 70+ kilowatts of power to the MG2 stator, it's going to get very hot, very quickly. By comparison, running lightly loaded and not towing a trailer, the car can climb the same hill only needing 25 kw of power. On flat, level ground at 55 mph, the car can cruise on only 12 kw. So you see that towing a trailer puts a huge strain on the MG2 cooling system. Burning out that stator would be at least a $5,000 repair. How hot does the stator actually get, you ask? I run Hybrid Assistant on my Prius Prime, which has a 71 hp MG2 motor. Hybrid Assistant draws data from the ECM computer via the OBD-II connector, and it shows several internal temperatures: engine coolant, transaxle oil, MG1 and MG2 stator temp, and traction battery temp. On flat and level highways, the engine coolant averages 194°F, the MG2 stator 185°F, and the Inverter 90°F. On long uphill grades, the engine coolant climbs to 204°F, and the stator and inverter temps climb 10 to 15 degrees. It's really not a good idea to tow trailers with any light-duty EV or PHEV; they are all very vulnerable to stator overheat damage. Your best tow vehicle is still a pickup truck with a diesel engine and manual transmission.
The lack of headroom is because your car has the moon roof. These reduce headroom by 2-1/2" in the Rav4, and this is why mine is the SE trim without the moon roof. I'm 6'-2", and my head actually hits the roof in any Rav4 with the moon roof.
Thanks so much for sharing this valuable information. Where did you get the Hybrid Assistant device? I'd be very curious about running this on my RAV4 Prime. Yes.. that SE Trim without Moonroof is the way to go for those that want additional headroom. I specifically called this out in many of my other videos. Again.. thanks so much for this valuable info!! We are planning on getting a new 2024 tacoma with the Hybrid Max powertrain. This has.a rated towing capacityof 6,000 lbs plus it has a turbo engine, so should be pretty good for towing our small little A-Liner Trailer.
So, when you get your Tacoma hybrid, will you sell your Rav4 Prime as you have found it no longer works for your camping needs?
@@sharipiehl2562 I will want to sell it, but my wife will want to keep it. We currently have 3 cars and we certainly don't need to add another.
@@sharipiehl2562 - I already have a pickup truck, a 1998 Dodge Cummins diesel, standard cab long bed. It's only got 106,000 original miles, so it'll probably last as long as I'll be alive, so I have no plans to ever buy a Tacoma. If I ever needed something with equivalent towing capacity to the Tacoma, I'd look for a V6 4Runner or a Sequioa. They don't incur the cost penalty of mandatory commercial license plates in California as the Tacoma, and every other pickup truck, does in this state. This Rav4 is being purchased for a couple of different reasons: My Prius is a great people-mover, but it's cargo carrying capacity is too limited, especially for anything tall, because of the long, shallow slope of the rear hatch, and the loss of 11" of cargo depth to the traction battery. The car sits so low to the ground that I guess it was impossible for Toyota's engineers to put the battery under the passenger floor, like most other EV's do, so it's under the cargo deck, and thus the Prius Prime has a cargo area that's 11" less deep than the regular Prius. Then there's the comfort issue; because the Prius sits so low, it's getting hard for me to climb in and out of it as I approach "old age" (I'm almost 67). The driver's seat in the Rav4 Prime is about 8" higher. The Prius doesn't have "My Room" mode, like the Rav4 Prime does, so when I am sitting at a public charger, and it's 105°F in the direct sun, it's miserable. The Rav4 Prime has about a 15 mile EV range advantage over the Prius Prime. I can equip a Rav4 with all-terrain tires for use off-pavement; not an option on the Prius.
Nice video; how much has the battery deteriorated with charging? I usually charge 1.5 to 2 times in a day, will it detroiate the battery a lot?
Thanks for watching. We charge every night. Haven't noticed any deterioration at all. We've had our Prime for about 2.5 years.
Came here for a review on rav4 hybrid prime, saw a sweet Nissan GTR in the garage. You have my respect sir 🙏 that prime suits you better if you need the extra power and great fuel efficiency. More practical for your 2 dogs and take the gtr out for a nice weekend or office work ride 😊
Thanks so much.. You should check out my other channel where I do lots of content on the GT-R - ruclips.net/video/353Ip-fMGwY/видео.html
You can upgrade to the eibach rear springs like I did, and it will effectively increase your tongue weight limit to 400lb+, and it will help tremendously with towing stability. The ecvt isnt whats loud. it's the engine. The ecvt is arguable more durable than conventional transmissions (8 speed etc) Ecvt are worlds apart from regular cvts driven by a belt.
I had thought about that. I contacted Eibach with some questions and never got a response. Someone else mentioned the towing limit rating was due to the heat being generarated in the MG2 Stator when towing on uphill grades can get excessive when at maximum GVWR or tow rating. I was considering getting Hybrid Assistant software to monitor the temps.. but am likely getting a Tacoma Max next year for towing.
The door handle is too far to grab. Thanks for the great honest video
Huh..hadn't heard of that one. Thanks for watching and sharing.
Thank you for the video. I have a Tacoma TRD Sport 4x4 and Prius V that I want to sell and get one of these. None of these issues are a deal breaker for me. Does your moonroof open all the way for fresh air or slide for a view? Does that dog cage behind the head rest leave a dent in the roof? Thank you
The moonroof doesn't open up all the way, but it does open (about halfway). The barrier does not leave an indent in the roof liner. We're actually planning on getting a new 2024 Tacoma Hybrid Max and will likely trade in our Prime so that we have a better tow vehicle. Thanks for watching !!
@@GoldenK9Campers thank you for your reply and your time. I truly appreciate it. Nice GTR :)
Low key GTR chillin in its lair.. nice
Yeah.. the GTR is gone. Sold it a few days ago. So sad !!
What is very surprising Daryl is the fact that My 2022 RAV4 Prime SE has the LED lights as well as the backlit window switches. I also installed blue back lighting behind the door handles. The ceramic coating is coming in March . I put air horns on mine to keep Semi's in their own lane when passing as the old Beep-Beep Toyota horn is absolutely puny. I also installed the hatch door LED lights that are absolutely wonderful. I replaced the boring polished with grey paint OEM wheels with Chrome OEM wheels and much higher performance wider 245/55/18 tires which when matched with the Hard Race front and rear anti sway bars that are coming will complete the cornering overhaul that led Alex on Autos to give the RAV4 Prime a B- for handling . All other grades where an or A+. I have combined a Chevrolet Volt seat frame with the RAV4 Prime Mechanical passenger front seat and it can now set on the floor or raise your head to nearly the ceiling. I Love the Cloth interior as it is NOT COLD in winter and more importantly not a Betty Crocker cooking mistake of burnt buns in the southern Nevada summer heat. Other than that I'm also changing the trim color under the rear lift gate window to match the other Piano Black trim exactly as the XSE with just silver is just as boring or worse than the SE same as the rest of the body color. In my case Supersonic Red.. Thanks again for your help in me and my sister getting RAV4 Primes at MSRP from A-1 Toyota.
Wow.. You have been busy. Your welcome. We still need to come up and visit you and get some ice cream!!
@@GoldenK9Campers Look forward to meeting you some day and the Inside Scoop is just the place to meet.
Well, there is also a lack of backlit buttons for the rear-hatch closing button and for the overhead buttons (for the cabin lighting) -- in my 2021 RAV4 Prime. And I think that the lack of back-lit stalks is a huge issue because you can't see the headlight or windshield-wiper settings in the dark.
Did you have to make any mods to the fender well liner to accomodate the larger tires? I'd like to get slightly larger and taller tires to gain a bit more ground clearance.
@@laura-ann.0726 Laura, If you look closely at my post you will see that my side profile on my G-Max tires is 55 which means the height of the tire is 55% of the 245mm width and therefore compared to stock SE tire height is is almost exactly the same . It literally is within .25 mm which is as close to identical as you can get therefore there is no difference to my speedometer at all. The width from stock 225mm wide to 245mm width on high performance tires is literally only about 3/4 of an inch wider if your not familiar with the metric system 25.4 mm is one inch so literally they are (.7874 inches)wider.Therefore there is no need to modify any thing at all. The difference in handling when combined with my Hard Race Anti -Sway bars is priceless.
Window switches (driver and passenger) and side mirror switch are all lit up now on my 2023 Rav4 Prime XSE. Also has full wireless carplay. You need to upgrade to a 2023 lol. BUT, passenger seat is too high still. My 5'6" wife even hit her head getting out! Any fixes for that you know of?
Yeah, not upgrading anytime soon.. Sorry, know of no fix for the seat. That sucks..
@@GoldenK9Campers You can now buy the Power adjustable Seat frame from Toyota for thousands of $ or make, like I did, a hybrid with a Chevrolet Volt which if you have ever set in one is probably the most adjustable manual seat ever created. The seat can set on the floor or go so high that you are hitting your head on the sealing. My wife hated the way Toyota had the seat so high as she has a very long trunk and has a hard time getting in and out of the OEM design.
@@bretstaley5496 Very cool. Thanks so much fo sharing !!
Well, there is also a lack of backlit buttons for the rear-hatch closing button and for the overhead buttons (for the cabin lighting) -- in my 2021 RAV4 Prime. And I think that the lack of back-lit stalks is a huge issue because you can't see the headlight or windshield-wiper settings in the dark. Have they fixed these problems for 2023 models yet?
@@neergewleinad You're right. Not sure about the 2023's.
Owner of a 2021 RAV4 Prime since Nov. 2020 here, now with > 25k miles on the odometer. Out of your ten gripes, I seriously only have problems with your No. 2 (lack of backlit buttons, incl. the rear-hatch closing button, the overhead buttons for cabin lights, and the stalks for headlights and wipers -- in addition to the door buttons) and your No. 7 (back-up sound). We don't tow or use a phone app for any of our cars. Yeah, it would be nice to have the passenger front seat have electric controls, but our bigger beef is that both front seats are uncomfortable for long road trips, so we tend to take our Volvo or Porsche on longer road trips (even though they get poorer gas mileage). Navigation has always been an issue in Toyotas, so we got the SE without navigation and just use Apple CarPlay off our iPhone; not ideal, but not a deal-breaker, either. The benefits of the CVT drivetrain (which I'm not crazy about) outweigh the negatives, because you have fewer parts/belts to fail on you, so I'm fine with that aspect.
We actually find the seats to be super comfortable. We take road trips all the time. I guess every "body" is different. I also like the pro's of the CVT.. i'll sure take it over those belt driven one's.. Toyota makes them super durable.
I'm disappointed in that the SE doesn't have built-in Navigation like my much less expensive 2019 Prius Prime has. For $44,000, even the base trim Rav4 Prime ought to have navigation, IMO. I'm hoping that I can run MapFactor Navigator off of an Android phone in the Rav4 Prime SE, but I won't know for sure until I take delivery on July 18th. Toyota has a troubled history of problems with both Apple Car Play and Android Auto connectivity in the 2020 and 2021 models that had it, but maybe they've solved the problems in the current 2023 models?
@@laura-ann.0726 The maps and navigation through Apple CarPlay work fine in our 2021 RAV4 Prime. That said, I've used CarPlay in numerous different brands, and it's way over-rated as a good app for cars. But we rarely have a problem getting to our destination ok in our RAV4 Prime with CarPlay navigation piped from iPhone into car's infotainment system.
I have 2021 R4Prime also. I agree. Toyota is a bit weird for such an expensive vehicle. I paid 3000 over invoice too
It's still a great car. Enjoy it !!
Interesting and fun video
Thank You !!
I could see where those would all be bothersome, especially on such a high-end, high tec, high priced vehicle. Non-lit switches in the doors? Good grief, our '95 Audi Quattro Avant had that, as did earlier year models. Don't hesitate to hand polish out the hood scratches. You'll find great products for this at your local auto parts stores, especially if you have a NAPA. Meguiar's products are top notch, and are numbered for easy reference. You could start with something like a #2 with a soft towel and just go back and forth, in a straight line (not in circles!), in line with the car...in other words, front to back, and NOT side-to-side. Then follow up with a finer polish, and then use their #7 glaze on the entire hood, followed by their wax. Pull it into the garage so the paint is cool to the touch, prior to doing this and I think you'll have a nice result.
Thanks so much for the advice Todd !!
You can tow 3300lbs on a Rav 4 Prime in the UK. It's just American regulations that drop it down. Also the headroom is higher when you do not have a sunroof.
Thanks. Lots of things are different in UK. Speed limits are a lot lower when towing.
The headroom issue is why I have had to wait so long (more than 2 years now) to get a Rav4 Prime. Finding one without the moonroof option in the US, especially in the Western States region, is nigh-impossible. I'm going to have to travel all the way across the country, from California to Baltimore, MD, to get mine. I've sat in a couple of Rav4 Primes with the moonroof option, and my head hits the ceiling in them, unless I lean the seat back, and then I can't reach the steering wheel. So my only option is an SE without the moonroof, and very few of these are arriving in the States.
Great reviews, love your non-sales themed honesty.
The towing... not the best choice nor commentary. Certainly not a lead-in on annoying things. Sorry but was more surprised you thought it should have a higher towing rating.
Yeah.. the towing rating was certainly a stretch. I'm just annoyed that the RAV4 TRD Offroad which has the dinky 4 cylinder only engine gets a 3,500 lb towing capacity. Wish they had some sort of upgrade path.. but I looked into it a little more and they add a transmission cooler, beefed up suspension, and the torque vectoring AWD. So they'd need to change a lot on the prime to get it up there. Thanks for watching and keeping me honest !!
bought a new 2023 Rav4 hybrid and the seating is so cramped and the headroom is non existent now I'm sorry I bought one at all.
If you got the one with the basic sunroof. The Headroom is really tight.
@@GoldenK9Campers Yes I did and you are correct. I have a tall torso now after 4 months I'm sorry I ever bought this car. For me it's a very bad fit.
For towing, it should be torque and not horse power right?
True.. It's got a crazy amount of torque though when you're using the electric motors. But if just using electric... it will eat it up too fast when going uphill, and when using hybrid mode the engine will rev like a typical toyota 4 cylinder cvt. It still tows nicely though. They are coming out with a grand highlander that has a 4 cylinder, plus turbo, plus hybrid. It will tow 5,000 lbs.. should be really nice.
In any Hybrid car, the most critical limiting factor on towing isn't the power or torque output, it's TEMPERATURE. At least half of the power output for the Rav4 Prime comes from the MG2 and MG3 motors, which are 3-phase synchronous, approximately 500 volts, with permanent magnet rotors. At 65 mph on flat terrain, lightly loaded, the MG2 stator is drawing about 20 kilowatts, which is 40 amperes at 500 volts. On a 6% uphill grade, the power draw will double, to 40 kilowatts (80 amperes). Now add a 2500 pound trailer, and the power demand will jump to the maximum that the MG2 motor and inverter can produce, about 133 kw, which is 266 amperes at 500 volts. Pushing that much current through the MG2 stator windings will get them very hot, very quickly. And it will also heat up the traction battery. Maximum power should only be used for brief sprints, like passing a slow-moving RV or semi-truck on a hill, not for sustained long slogs. If you overheat and burn out the stator or inverter in a Prius Prime or Rav4 Prime, you are looking at a $5000 repair bill. If you do have to use a Rav4 Prime to tow a trailer, I would say that it's mandatory to use an OBD-II scanner and run Hybrid Assistant on your cell phone, so that you can monitor the internal temperatures of the traction battery, Inverter and MG2/MG3 stators in real time, and stop the vehicle if any of the system temps climb more than a few percent above average values.
@@laura-ann.0726 Where did you order your scanner and hybrid assistant from? I probably should get that.. if for nothing else would make a very interesting towing video.
What about the charge port!
Hm.. It doesn't really bother me much? I get more annoyed with the gas gauge, always telling me i'm about to run out of fuel.. when I "know" I have about 3 gallons left.
@@GoldenK9Campers Fair enough, I find it to be extremely flimsy and is already starting to break on mine (doesn't stay open). Additionally I wished it covered the port when open for snow. Currently after snow I have to clean it out and it doesn't always close if I can't get all the snow out....
@@NickMuzzio Hm.. yeah I notice that sometimes it's hard to close.. I know I closed it..and then it's still open.. argh.. Luckily I live where it doesn't rain/show a lot. I dislike the fuel filler port much more than the charging port though.. That sucker is flimsy.
@@GoldenK9Campers - My Prius Prime has a very conservative fuel gauge - when the low fuel warning light comes on, which is supposed to be when there's only 1 gallon remaining, I usually find that there's at least 2-1/2 gallons, assuming that the 11.4 gallon tank capacity is accurate. Sometime, I'd like to completely drain the fuel tank, or just run the car completely out of gas, and see what my individual car's fuel tank actually holds. The Rav4 Prime is supposed to have a 14 gallon tank, and I'll find out in a couple of weeks when I take delivery of mine.
I agree with Nicole.!
Yep.. Nicole is usually right.. She reminds me of that all the time!!
Get a 2023 version they changed the NAV system it's totally different now.
No way?? Not enough to make me upgrade.. but I guess Toyota is making some well needed changes.. Awesome. Thanks for the heads up..
Toyota: I provide you one thing and one thing only. And that is reliability. So shut up and stop wining about other stuffs.
Toyota has been slowing losing some of their reliability cred. Just look at the new Tundra engine recalls.
Why spend so much on a car with such negative points?? Ill look elsewhere...
The 2023 fixed a lot of things that annoyed me. It's a great car. There is really nothing on the market like it. Fast, Fuel Efficient, No range anxiety on trips. If I had to do it over.. would definitely get our Prime.
Most of the negative points in this video are minor things that many people would never even notice. The Rav4 Prime has so many amazing positive attributes, than the lack of lighted switches on the door handle shouldn't be a turn-off. If it only had a tiny fuel tank with 250 mile range, or a wimpy air conditioner that couldn't keep the interior comfortable in 105°F summer weather, those would be major annoyances.
@laura-ann.0726 Hey, now that you mention it, I'm about to take delivery of a new RAV4 Prime in 6 weeks, and one of the things I've been most concerned about is how well it does in cooling the cabin quickly. My old 2009 V6 RAV4 absolutely freezes you out and it's probably the best AC I've ever had in a vehicle, so I'm coming from something that is truly impressive and I'm worried that I'm going to be very disappointed. Am I?
@@OtherSteve - Here's my honest assessment of the a/c in my Rav4 Prime. Our 2019 Prius Prime and our 2020 Corolla Hybrid both have better, colder a/c, with more powerful fans. The weak a/c is one of the few "features" of the 2023 Rav4 Prime that I wish was better. I think I know why Toyota put such a lackluster blower fan in the Rav4 Prime: noise reduction. When running at max speed, the fans in my Prius and the Corolla were both loud enough to make it kinda hard to carry on a conversation between the driver and passenger(s). The Rav4 Prime's fan, at max speed, is about equivalent to the Corolla fan at 80%.
Part of the problem with my Rav4 Prime is the color: the exterior paint color is "Blueprint", a very dark, almost purplish blue. In low light conditions, it looks black. So the exterior sheet metal of the car absorbs probably 95% of the sunlight falling on it, and re-radiates that energy into the interior of the car as heat. As if that wasn't already a problem in hot summer weather, practically every surface in the car is black: the seat upholstery, the dashboard, the headliner, the floor mats - black, black, black. I would never have bought any car with such a dark paint color and all-black interior by choice, but as you probably know, Rav4 Primes have been more or less "unobtainium" from the day Toyota announced them. I started looking for one 2-1/2 years ago, and finally settled for this one, because at least it was an SE without the moonroof option (I hate glass roofs on cars). Finding an SE without the moonroof is damn near impossible; I had to fly clear across the country (California to Maryland) to buy this one, then drive it 3,200 miles back across to get it home. Just doing this added $1,100 to the cost of the car: $480 worth of gasoline, and 5 nights in hotels. Oh, the road trip was fun, but I would rather have been able to buy one in California and save the $1,100 for a vacation trip to somewhere nicer than Interstate 40 across the Texas Panhandle.
So if your Rav4 Prime happens to be White exterior paint, or at least the light gray color they are also available in, you will probably not have quite so big a "hit" on the a/c performance as the dark blue paint on mine costs me. But bottom line, the Rav4 Prime has a pretty weak fan motor. It's quieter, but I'd rather have the option of a really powerful fan when it's blazing hot in the car.
@@laura-ann.0726 Thanks Laura-Ann, mine is going to be the silver sky metallic color, so hopefully that's light enough to mitigate some of these concerns. However it does sound like I'm going to be disappointed in the air conditioning which makes me a little bit sad.
I wish there was some other option than the dark interior seat colors, and my vehicle lacks the premium package so it does not have the ventilated seats, though I've heard they're only marginally helpful considering it doesn't actually cool the air before recirculating it. My XSE seats are the mixed media seats, which include the cloth inserts at the lower back and butt area. I've heard it's still mostly softex, and it may not be any cooler, but I hope it's comfortable given the circumstances.
Appreciate the reply. I'm paying over 50K for mine total still, so I really hope it turns out to be the car I want!
You need to trade for a 2023
I'm good. I called a dealer about doing some upgrades.. Not very helpful. We still love Brootus (that's his name).
Toyota App is the worst!!!
not great for sure..
Glad I didn’t buy one of these.
It's the best car i've owned.
@@GoldenK9Campers - My Prius Prime is the best car I've ever owned in my 50 years of having a driver's license (I've owned at least 25 cars, vans, and pickup trucks in my lifetime), and I expect that the Rav4 Prime I'm going to take delivery of on July 18th will surpass my Prius by a substantial margin. I'll be sacrificing 15 mpg of fuel economy, but gaining a lot more versatility.
@@laura-ann.0726 Congrats on the prime. You're going to love it. Great job with getting an SE without the moonroof. That's hard to get. We we're actually looking at that exact model to give our dogs more headroom in the cargo area. I had one lined up in New Hampshire.. but ended up getting the Pano Monroof instead... which gives decent headroom compared to the standard moonroof.
What year, trim, and packages do you have?
Thanks for watching. It's a 2021 XSE with Premium Package.
get gx460 all problems solved Lexus
I like it.. but no hybrid or plugin options. Really like the boxy look of it though!!