Are Seed Coatings worth the Cost? | The Setup w/ Bill Winke
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- I have gotten some feedback in the comments section of the Dream Farm series regarding the use of coatings on the seeds we have been planting from Whitetail Institute. Coatings are nothing new in the farming community, but it seems that some food plot planters don't understand what they do and see them as bag fillers. Whether they are worth the extra expense that you pay to have coated seeds is up to you to determine, but the coatings do serve a purpose. In this episode, I open up this topic with a short discussion of coatings and what they do.
Learn about Whitetail Institute seed blends: whitetailinsti...
Thanks so much backing me up when i tell all my fellow hunters that they are buying the seed for the area there SEEDING ! I also believe strongly in the Whitetail institute and strongly advocate using there products ! THANKS AGAIN
Thanks for the comment Donald. Have a great day.
They make a good product and you’re one of the original writers/educators/content creators that has always done it coming from the right heart and mindset.
I feel like your subscribers can get behind a company that is supporting you.
I’m ordering their clover to blend with some cereal grains this fall
Thanks Troy. I appreciate it and I don't think you will be disappointed. I appreciate the support. Have a great day.
Bill great segment, I appreciate you sharing this. July 23rd I rushed out to plant my 1 acre plot ahead of what looked like a big rain storm coming, turns out the rain missed my area. Whitetail Institute Tall Tine Tubers were able to sit on top of the soil for about 8-9 days before the next rains came. Went out today and have great germination 🤞🏻
Thanks for the comment Chet. I appreciate it. Good luck this fall.
Great video Bill. I hardly recognized you without your cap on😂. As someone who was in the seed business for 26 years, we sold inoculated legumes because of the increased germination rate of the seed. Germination is always shown on the bag but those numbers are based on tests typically done in a controlled environment following industry standard protocals. Germination can be much tougher in the field and that is where coated seed can provide essentially a micro- environment around the seed to help that it germinate. in a more favorable environment less coated seed is needed to get an adequate stand because it will germinate more consistently. You are correct when you say to buy your seed based on how much area it will plant, not on how much seed is in the bag.
Thanks for the input Steven. There seems to be a lot of emotion and misconception around this topic of seed coatings. I think there has been a lot of misinformation out there on this topic between those in the seed business trying to find a way to knock a competitor. I was not expecting this much feedback on a topic that seemed pretty innocent on the surface, but... Again, I appreciate your perspective. I like your words as a basic summary for this debate: I believe you are saying that the coatings aren't needed in ideal planting conditions but can make a noticeable difference when the conditions aren't ideal. That feels like a good way to wrap a bow on this. Have a great day.
Well said Bill and great topic. To much misinformation being spread from "land managers" saying that the coating is a filler and you are not getting enough seed. Thanks for explaining
Thanks for the comment Wes. I appreciate it. Have a great day.
It costs the same amount to grow cheap seed as it does to grow the good stuff so you might as well plant the best seed money can buy. Whitetail institute always has been and will be the best
Thanks for the comment Todd. Have a great day.
I’ve had good luck w WI products when I use them. If that coating is serving a purpose this is a great point of clarification, with many folks criticizing the waste of money / inert matter, when that’s often just not true.
The one thing I‘ve become more conscious of is what the turkeys and other birds might be filling their bellies with if they pick through the field a couple times. I would suspect this would be most problematic with pesticide coatings, but not sure. When possible I try to get most of that seed under the soil, after my broadcast.
That makes sense. I don't believe there are pesticides in the Whitetail Institute seed coating. At least Drew didn't mention that if there are. I would guess that there aren't. Have a great day.
Thank you for the follow up video! Very helpful and informative! 👍🏻
I appreciate the comment. Have a great day.
Each time I get drawn for a managed hunt I make it a point to talk to the actual conservation workers that plant the food plots. Some of the draw hunts I was lucky enough to get drawn for had as many as 200 food plots to manage. They have nothing to gain by sharing their experience working with the different seeds from the varied seed companies. You get just the facts and the truth. I have found that the story from a seed company rep vs the story from the actual workers is vastly different. What I have learned is that the big name seed companies are not always the best. In fact many times they have told me they would never use a certain company's seed again. Their claim is that in many cases you are paying for the name. Perspective matters. Sometime do an episode on neonicotinoid coatings and their harmful effects on quail, turkey poults, native birds etc. Keep up the good work.
Thanks Harley. I will definitely take a harder look at that. Those coatings are for insect control on some commercial ag seeds, often on corn. Those ingredients are not found in coatings that don't have insecticides, such as the food plot seeds we plant. But, yes, that is a real threat in many areas where the birds (especially turkeys) will dig up the freshly planted seeds - not good for beneficial insects either.
There coated clover is the best out there been doing this for years . Deer love it I have plots lasting 10 years as long as I frost seed some every year.
Robert, that has also been my experience over the years. I am learning more about their other blends (mostly the brassicas), but for sure, the Imperial Whitetail Clover is the best clover blend I have tried. Good luck.
I do like whitetail institute products. My best clover field to date was imperial clover. The thing about seed coating that annoys me is, a company can put whatever acre coverage they want on the bag, so to say "we don't buy seed by the pound" is a little too much like pulling wool over the customers eyes when selling seed. Seeding rates are very well established using the "by the pound calculations", and throwing 50% coating in there.....kind of muddies the water. Inoculants are very helpful for legumes to establish the "nitrogen fixing" bacterial on the root system. However, the amount of inoculant needed is very small, a couple OZ for a 50 pound bag of seed. The majority of "coated" foot plot seed is something OTHER than inoculant.
There are absolutely cases where the seed coating might salvage a plot that otherwise would have been a failure, but that's not every plot, and I hate the implied NEED for seed coating in ALL cases. In fact, and argument could be made that it allows seed to germinate with a less amount of moisture than without the coating, but it's not enough moisture to get the root into the ground. Whereas with no "non-inoculant" coating, the seed wouldn't have germinated, and would still be sitting there waiting on a good rain. Just a thought.
The long and short is this, seed coating is much cheaper than seed, full stop. However, I think companies should offer it both ways. Coated and uncoated. Good content, but it started to sound a little too much like a salesman on this one.
That is good rational thinking. I agree, the companies should offer seed both ways and just let the consumer decide which type they want/need. Good point.
Would like to know the effects of coated side on soil health and wildlife posted on the bag.
I’m sure it’s not all good like seed companies claim. Also you are paying for “filler” no matter how you slice it. If you read labels of total content by percentage it will usually state many times 30% or more of the bags content is coating. I’ve planted plots for 20 years. All the big names, and I can honestly say good quality bare seed seems to give me just a good of stand as coated seed, and I’m not worried about wildlife (songbirds in particular)ingesting anything toxic. Not all coatings are harmful, but neonicotinoids in particular are so toxic a single seed will kill a songbird. Just
my thoughts from western IL. Thanks for the follow up video Bill.
Love following along.
Thanks for the comment. I did say in the video that you are paying for the coating. There is no denying it. It costs them money to apply it so they pass that along. If the coating doesn't work then they should stop using it because it isn't free. There is no hidden agenda. The coatings are listed as an ingredient right there on the back label and shown on the front of the bag. They are also baked into the cost of the seed. So, in the end, the consumer is left deciding if the coating is worth the extra cost. That is the decision each of us makes when we buy coated seeds vs uncoated seeds. I have planted both and had success with both. I don't know know when (from my own experience) that the coatings made a difference because none of my comparisons were scientific tests. It is something worth keeping an eye on, for sure. Thanks for the support. Have a great day.
I planted my first plot back in 1989, just a small 1/3 acre Ladino clover plot. Since that time I've planted 100's of plots using both coated and uncoated seeds. When it comes to clovers I have definitely had better germination rates with coated seed. Now when it comes to soybean, milo, corn, etc that coating is usually a fungicide or insecticide (possibility a neonicotinoid) that is very harmful to soil health and our beneficial pollinators. I'd never use those.
Good input, Brian. Much appreciated. Have a great day.
Planted imperial whitetail coated seed this spring, even in a drought year where I am, it's doing well.
I really like the Imperial Whitetail Clover. I think it is the best on the market for sure. Good luck.
The coating obsorbs moisture, keeping the seed moist longer for improved germination. It is extremely beneficial when broadcasting.
Thanks for the comment. Have a great day.
I can tell you that coated seed (Bigger seed) sure works better through my no till drill, when you are planting small seeds. I'm not the best at calibrating a seeder, so that larger seed helps me get the rate correct. Also when I do spread seed with a hand crank seeder or used a drill my old eyes can see coated seed. its nice to see your coverage or dig down and find the seed when your run a drill. I can't find small black or brown seed when I used the drill, but I can see that blue seed.
That makes sense. Same here. I have the PH Outdoors drill and I feed the brassicas through the main seed bin - per Paul's recommendations at PH. When I used uncoated seeds in the past I had to mix in fall rye to get the seed rate low enough to plant my brassicas correctly. I am sure it would be the same for clover. When broadcasting, I don't look for the seeds on the ground, but I do like to watch them flying out to see where they are going and how thickly they are growing. Coated seed makes that way easier. So if it does nothing else, it at least does that! Thanks for the post.
Thanks Bill, I've had good luck with both coated seeds and uncoated seeds. The thing I look for is the inert matter percentage. Good luck this fall.
I have personally done well with both coated and uncoated seeds too, but without side-by-side scientific testing, it is hard to know if one is better. I have not done that.
I’ve had the best luck just going to the local seed company which and they tell me when they get new seed in oats and clover and I go and buy the freshest seed and that seems to always have the best germination no inoculates
Yes, I am not sure what the shelf life is for seed, but I do know it has one. I once planted a sealed bag of seed that I had stored in a dry place for three years (brassicas) and very little of it came up, so seed freshness definitely makes a difference.
University studies show that germination and growth is better with coatings. But, you have to check germ rate and the percentage of inert matter in the bag
Thanks for the comment. Have a great day.
The one massive upside for me is my seeding rate is physically visible with the blue coating. Clover and brassica's are darker seeds and when they fall on the dirt, it is near impossible to see. Winter Rye and Wheat are large seed and easily seen.
That is a good point. Other viewers have pointed that out also. Thanks for the input. Have a great day.
Dream Big brother 🙏
Thanks Edward. Same to you.
Bill,
Another item you forgot to mention is how easy it is to see your coverage rate on the ground. Uncoated seeds are brown and lite gray and imposable to judge. I find the green and blue seeds real easy to spot.
Just my 2cents, Thanks,,,
That is a very good point. Thanks John. I like to watch them in the air so I can tell how far they are going and a little bit on the rate. I don't have my spreader calibrated, I just pretty much wing it, but the coated seeds definitely make that easier. Good luck.
Our you just plant when the timing is right. Just before rain. No coating needed. Even less of a concern if you drill them in.
Good points Travis. Have a great day.
Thanks for the informational video...
Thanks Clay, I appreciate it. Have a great day.
Buying by the pound or by coverage(which coverage area should indicate pounds of product, which includes coating, per acre) are terms that should not be taken as equal. Coated small seeds like brassica and clover can help one more readily see how the product is being distributed, especially when broadcasting. If using a drill, it would be interesting to see alternate strips planted with coated and uncoated seed to see how they turn out.
William, I think that would be interesting to see. I do know that it is easier to drill the coated seeds. I had a hard time planting the uncoated seeds with my drill - they came out too fast. I had to mix fall rye with the brassicas or clover seeds in order to get the rate low enough. That was not the end of the world, but it was one more thing I had to manage when planting.
@@bill-winke I only have leased property, so a seed drill is out of my league. Put I could try the same thing on separate lanes or plots with broadcast.
Huge fan of Frigid Forage seed company. No coatings great results the last 5 seasons. Not saying other seed companies are trash this is just the one I’ve had great luck with. My two cents
That is a good company, also. I didn't try all their blends, but the ones I did try were good. I do think Whitetail Institute's clover blend is better though. It is the best of all the ones I have tried.
I have little knowledge about food plots,but i own my own lawn care business and coated grass seeds are without a doubt better.
Good input, thanks Shane. Much appreciated.
Thanks Bill
You are welcome. Thanks for the comment.
Dang Bill.
Never thought I'd see you post something I disagreed with but you just did.
Have planted quite a few smaller (1/4) acre plots over the years for myself and others.
I usually buy my clover seed from a company i wont say. Straight Ladino.
No coating at all. I've planted IWC several time and yeah, they come up fine but with the coating and the ANNUAL clovers in their blend , come spring, I always have to over$$eed to keep it good and thick.
I don't have to do that with a perennial Ladino.
My family plants SugarBeets in the Red River Valley in Mn. HUGE cash crop!
IW (or any other) company that sells a brassica blend with sugarbeets are scamming you.
Sugarbeet need to be planted in the SPRING. Way before turnips,radish,rapes.
I've known this for YEARS before those on RUclips started talking about it.
I know you are sponsored by them but there are much better (blends) out there.
No disrespect Bill. Absolutely love your content and have for years.
Dave, I have planted everything under the sun over the years and I have not had a bad experience with the Whitetail Institute Imperial Whitetail Clover as long as I got it into - or onto - a good seedbed. Maybe their seeding rate is off for some situations. I have not seen the seedings come up thin in the places I have planted. I don't know about sugar beets so I will definitely defer to you on that one. I will keep an eye on the small plot (about 1/2 acre or a bit less) where I broadcast them and see how the plants do and how the deer react to them just for reference. Thanks for the support and the comment. Have a great day.
Very helpful. Thanks a lot for an awesome video. We are planting big and beastie. What is your thoughts? I'm just spreading it on top of the ground there is dirt showing. Do we need to scratch it up a little?THANKS BILL FOR ALL OF YOUR HELP.
Steve, it is always better if you can create more surface area or porosity in the soil when broadcasting. The chances for good seed to soil contact is better. If you get a good rain, it will work into the top layer of the dirt quicker if the soil is a bit looser. Not always possible, but that would be ideal. Good luck.
Appreciate the information.
Thanks for the comment.
I get a little critical of seed companies, to be honest. Not all coatings are for inoculant purposes as only legumes (i.e. clovers, cowpeas, etc.) need it. Many farmers use coated seeds that are pesticides. I am not sure I buy (literally) the coverage argument vs weight -- the real question is how much SEED you are getting. Lastly, some seed companies even market "lime coated" seed. You literally need tons of lime per acre to make a difference in Ph, not a tiny seed coating. But the coatings add to the bag weight AND stated coverage area. The bottom line is, buyer beware. Do your due diligence and know what is in the bag, not just what is psychologically appealing via marketing.
Brad, that is the coverage argument. You are making that same argument that I made. Don't worry about how much it weighs (you aren't buying it by the pound), worry about how much it covers (you are buying it by the acre). As you say, the number of seeds is what matters per acre, not the weight of the seed because that weight can include the coating. Who knows, maybe lime coated seed might make a tiny difference when the plant is a few days or weeks old, but then reality sets in and the actual soil pH takes over. It isn't something I would pay extra for. Thanks for the post.
Brad, the lime is there to protect the inoculant, not change the ph of the soil. University studies have proven that coated seeds will outperform uncoated seeds. For example: 8 lbs of coated alfalfa seed will result in more tonnage of alfalfa per acre than 10 lbs of uncoated seed.
@rnr4204 Food plotters are not farmers and not counting on yield to make money. While more tonnage does provide more food for deer, the claim of additives producing that great of benefit is often for the producer's profit margin instead of the consumer's yield.
Do you know who sponsors many university studies? Companies that want to tout the "results" . I have many friends in the Ag business and this is a well known marketing strategy.
A savvy consumer can spot the fluff --literally
@@bradb_in_Iowa “food plotters are not farmers and not counting on yield to make money”
This argument is ridiculous. Both people planting crops for a living and food plots for deer want the same outcome: a productive crop.
If planting 8 lbs of coated seed per acre didn’t work as well as planting 10 lbs of uncoated seed, farmers wouldn’t do it. But yet they do. It’s been proven repeatedly that seed coatings do serve a purpose by not only the seed companies, but by actual farmers as well for decades.
If you want to go on believing that it’s some kind of world wide conspiracy, be my guest.
@@rnr4204 While I agree a productive crop is the goal regardless if you are making money off of the end result, you are missing my point. While you are focused on the "coating", I am focused on the EVERYTHING that is in the bag. Look at the details on the label -- even if you are 100% right on the magic coating (feel free to post the link to the university studies you reference AND who sponsored it), look at the other contents such as inert materials and the mix. Some of the magic coating mixes you mention also include RYE GRASS as the highest percentage of seed in the bag. Not Rye GRAIN, Rye GRASS. Deer don't eat grass, otherwise my lawn would be down to the dirt. So, while you focus on coating, up to half a bag is useless seed for deer. Unless your example of 8lbs of coated seed is 100% desired seed and doesn't include coated Rye Grass, you are getting ripped off. The bottom line -- if a seed company will include useless seed such as Rye Grass as a significant percentage --especially if it is coated, you should also question what else they market. Just because what is growing is green doesn't mean the deer will eat it. For me, I will only purchase food plot seed where you can clearly see what it is the bag and it is free of filler.
Well it seems this video was posted as a "Response" video to my "Seed Exposed" video posted 3 weeks ago where I point out how seed companies are playing games with the average food plotter. ruclips.net/video/teaFakuMUt8/видео.htmlsi=b5Wj90bhpiF3gVIv
Based on other comments here, it seems more people are figuring out that seed coating does not double or triple the germination like the added cost would suggest. A good quality seed is inoculated, but does NOT need coating. Fancy packaging and wording only appeals to the unsuspecting food plotter.
Love your content Bill. Good hunting this Fall.
No, I didn't see that one. It was posted as a response to questions I was getting on other videos I had released on this channel.
Exactly! Thank you for busting the propaganda around seed coatings
I still have a lot to learn, but there is more to this than a seed company gimmick. Have a great day.
I will avoid coatings at all cost. Its not entirely possible with the seed brands I choose to use, but for the most part I get and use clean uncoated seed. You typically end up paying a premium for coating and padding someone else's wallet.
plant side by side ! ull see the difference
I have planted just about everything over the years. I wish I had done more side-by-side tests.
@@donaldberg3068 4lb bag of clover is $42. 2lbs is probably seed and 2lbs coating. I can only guess based off all the other brands and it supposedly covers (up to) half an acre. In reality 2lbs is closer to 1/4 to 1/3 acre. So over $120 for an acre of clover. Not a chance I’d be using that coming out of my own pocket. I’ve used coated seed before. Some by accident and some knowingly. I’ve yet to see any real benefit worth the cost. Again, that’s my opinion only.
I’m pretty sure I have a jug of clover in my office that has some coating. Not ideal but that’s the one I can’t hardly avoid for this brand.
University studies have proven that coated seed outperforms uncoated seed. 5 minutes of research and you’d know this. Not everything is a scam🤦🏻♂️
Does the coating kill turkeys that eat the seed?
I don't think so. It doesn't have any pesticide in it. I guess I didn't ask that question specifically though.
I wouldn’t have a problem with the seed coating if it stayed on the seed…. Have had several different bags from Whitetail Institute leave multiple pounds of coating in the spreader!! Very disappointed in their seeds of late!!!
I wonder if the bag got handled roughly and the coating was knocked off in the bag. I have not seen that happen in my experience. Sorry to hear.
@@bill-winke I’ve had it happen with two different bags of fusion. I love the company and seeds… Hoping it was just an anomaly! Have yet to find a better clover mix!!
How do you expect the birds to find all the seed without those bright colors?!?!
Finally, a rational question in this debate!
Thanks Bill! I'm a beginner food plot planter, this is my 3rd year planting in SE Iowa. What's your opinion on annual Ryegrass in food plot seed? Now that I know to look at the seed tag, some manufacturers blends are 80% ryegrass.
100% no.. its a BS filler to make money. Never use rye grass in your food plots. Only Rye grain or Cereal rye.
I am in central Wisconsin, and I would avoid ryegrass. I have two fields 1 acre each.
One has clover with chicory in early September I broadcast 250 LB of Winter Rye on a top of clover and chicory. It Stay green over the winter or early spring but you need to kill later in the spring, winter rye. Mow it or spray it with Cetodium. Winter rye, not ryegrass, helps as a cover crop for my clover The second one is brassicas or winter peas with winter oats. It works well for me in sandy soil
Alex, you for sure don't want ryegrass, that is a perennial. You want annual rye or "winter rye" or "cereal rye" or "fall rye" but not ryegrass. Anyway, the deer definitely like them. No doubt about that and they are pretty cheap to plant though you still need to fertilize to get them to grow really well. I tend toward the brassicas myself and have since about 2010 because the brassicas produce more tonnage and that means more deer food. Also, brassicas tend to work better in an broadcast planting situation because the seeds are smaller and work into the dirt easier than the larger rye seed. All in all, cereal rye is a solid option and deer definitely like it, especially when it is the only thing left that is green. Good luck.
I much prefer the coated seeds.
Thanks for the comment and the insight. Have a great day.
Hows that beets and greens plot doing that you threw out this year thinking of trying it out on a couple acre plot, torn between that and the wintergreens
Dustin, we just started to get rains and I have not been back to the farm in a week. I will give an update when I get up there in a few days. If I had to pick between the two right now, I would definitely choose the Winter-Greens. I saw that work well on my farm last year and the deer liked it. I will know more about the Beets & Greens soon. Thanks for the post.
@@bill-winke Awesome! Thank you sir, looking forward to the update!
If you have a couple acre plot, split it. Diversity is always good. Prep and planting are the same for both.
It probably cost more to coat the seed, than the actual seed!
There in a growing business, not going to sugar coat anything lol
A "growing business". I like that!
I have planted both side by side, when u don't get rain right away coated seed outperforms. There is a RUclips influencer who bashes it and then what do u know he starts his own seed company.
Thanks for the comment. Have a great day.
Sorry I can go to my local ag seed and buy twice as much seed without coating and cover more ground for half the price. the coating is really to help the shelf life to keep it viable. you will never convince a farmer. I know they are a sponsor sorry but no added advantage to me
I have planted just about every kind of food plot seed from just about every source, from multiple local co-ops to mail order seed companies like Welters, to just about all the major food plot seed companies (and several you have never heard of). Not all of the seeds did great, but there are so many variables other than just the seed (weather, rain, soil fertility, timing, etc.). I couldn't decide why one did better than another, so I gave up trying. Every co-op now seems to have their "Deer Blend" with a sometimes strange variety of ingredients. Who decided what goes into to those? In the end, I finally just decided that I would stick with proven blends from long-standing companies that have a deer hunting focus. Maybe the seed costs more than a DIY blend from the co-op, but I like the simplicity.