your breakdown of "brainy" vs "aggressive" vs "macro" players is quite interesting because once upon a time people thought basically this exact-same way about Chess, except in Chess it was about being defensive, aggressive, or just incredibly solid. 40ish years ago, chess players were often described as being one of those 3, where defensive players' primary strategy was to just push as much into the board as possible, while aggressive players would play very risky, and the solid players were balanced, not very defensive but still would push and not very aggressive but still takes risks from time to time. nowadays you cant really be GM in Chess without being able to do everything, and we mostly have DeepBlue, a notoriously powerful Chess AI, to thank for that. Garry Kasparov remarked that fighting DeepBlue was like fighting a Blackhole, because it would take everything you throw at it like it was nothing, sidestepping all of your plans, playing both EXTREMELY risky AND heavily defensively by pushing like crazy, and pulling many tricks out of its sleeve that at the time were largely unheard of. Nowadays a lot of the playstyle that DeepBlue had is actually kind of standard in Chess for humans to play, ie pushing like crazy and having a very strong intuition on what risks are very good to take.
Since you made this interesting comparison to chess, are there any games of SC with some of the world's top chess players like Magnus Carlsen, Fabiano Caruana, Hikaru Nakamura, ... ? A while back I tried to search but did not find any.
Very interesting stuff, I think that the features you listed for DeepBlue are kind of what makes a good brain/solid bw player that funily enough do feel a liitle AI like if you ask me. They adapt so well in the moment because they are so smart and can read and detect patterns with more ease than others allowing them can go back and forth between defensive and risky type of play when needed. They make risky/coinflippy play less risky because how good they are at analizing when to take those risks. I can think of one player for each race that embodies that superior style: the first one of course it's Flash, not only for the Terran race but for the entire game, he is the ultimate mastermind with no close second, unique forever, then for Protoss it's Rain and for Zerg that would be Soulkey (Artosis you are very wrong here, it's not Shine) Soulkey is the zerg's Flash imo, the smartest zerg around, the best defensive macro style, with a serious potential for agressive play that has a very high effectiveness ratio because he is so smart and know better than others when to, and when not to.
So I stumbled across your channel trying to find tutorial videos of how to play this game better (me and my 2 bothers would all play against 1 ai and still not win). We played this game in our childhood but never really had a good grasp on how to actually play the game. Now we play this game to keep in touch since they are both in the military and live around the world. In any case I not only learned a TON of info from watching your channel but this is now a part of my daily schedule and I appreciate ALL of the commentary that you add, from beginner to advanced tips and info I soak it all in. We are now able to survive against the computer but unfortunately it's only in cheesy ways like cannon containment. In any case thank you for what you do, you just gained a subscriber or three ;)
@@Water2Spicy Practice by playing the campaign. It teaches you all the basics and helps you build your fundamentals (micro, macro, expansion timing etc) until you can easily smash several AI's by yourself.
Speaking of move outs, my wife moved out last week. Something about me spending too much money on Mario Erotica. I don’t know, I wasn’t really paying attention because I was watching your stream. Anyways, women are crazy, right RT?
Zelot had some amazing micro at the start. Very impressive. I think where Rain won this was that his mid game attacks were way more efficient as he had high numbers of range goons against small numbers of hydras. It’s a bit like TVP, where the big mech ball can’t be attacked piece meal by small amounts of Protoss units…
Feels like a big difference between ZeLot and someone like Queen or SoulKey, is ZeLot is eating all the storms we see, while the others dodge some of them.
And this (among other reasons) is why I think SC should be extended to offer players the ability to program their own strategy/tactical macros. Imagine playing Terran and in a longer lasting game, where you have full tech, you have a tactical unit of marines, goliaths, tanks, vessels and a couple of ghosts. Your focus is somewhere else and your group runs into a larger Protoss group with a couple of carriers. By default the ghosts will just use standard fire on the carriers or other units in range. But suppose you had the ghosts programmed to prioritize locking down the carriers. Or in this particular game have the clumped up hydras spread out and get out of the storm. But if the group of zealots, dragoons and templars is small enough, eat the storm and keep pushing. It would open up a whole new area of game-play in SC.
@@TomaszWinnicki that's something for a new RTS, not Starcraft. And at that point it's more of a hybrid game than pure RTS since your units would be controlling themselves to an extent...sort of like setting up your own AI bot to play the game.
I as a viewer only like watching terran matchups but man these pvz games with rain and zelot are so freaking amazing. zelot is my favourite zerg to watch because of his aggressive play and always wants me needing to see more :). Thank you RT for all the hardwork you put into these casts. You are the best caster of all time ( though I admire every single caster for the love of this game).
Excellent storms from Rain won the game. Zealot did not counter with dark swarms or plagues. It would be interesting if we could see end game stats which would show what unit/attack caused the amount of hit points damage, other units destroyed.
Love how Rain proves your point about how cognitive he is in his muta defense. He perfectly predicts the exit path that Zelot will take at the third, three storms that nearly kill the mutas and don't even touch his templar or corsairs. You've gotten me back into BW again and it's so fun to just 3v1 the ai on a huge map
And in Magic, aggro beats control. Control beats midrange. Midrange beats aggro. Superb game. Such a good series. Really showcases the mastery on both sides.
Zelot has very good game sense he's literally only losing because he stops making drones after midgame. That's the only difference between him and higher level zergs. I wish I could just talk to him and be like "hey bro, after 10 minutes into the game, keep making a drone or two every minute". It would make him play like 50% stronger with no extra effort
Hey Artosis :) love the channel man, have for awhile! Just wondering, besides the obvious best Terran player of all time being Flash, who would you place second?
I've been following professional Starcraft for about 15 years now and I only recently became a protoss supremacist and this game is a prime example of why. That being said Arty can you please please please organize a professional 2v2v2 race War Tournament? Thatd be great, thanks.
It really speaks to the tenacity of these players, especially Rain so far, that they've played 14 games in a row, and Artosis after 6 of them was like "I'll need 2 weeks before I can look at another ZeLoT hydra bullshittery :D Still blown away by the fact that we're getting such great games quarter a century after the game was published. (and that Artosis got even better at casting? Is the missus spiking maple syrup with some Quebec-original Rock Machine MC rocks?) And since yesterday - Ding Dong, the witch is dead! Well, "left the company" with millions of dollars severence, but hey - no more Bob Kotick! Maybe MS will reverse the Fuck You Korea and e-sports 2023 Terms of Service.
I think Hyuk is a great example of the "mechanical beast" that lacks the deep cognitive approach players higher up in the tiers have. He's arguably the most mechanically gifted and skilled, but lacks results post remastered because the game has become so much more cerebral while everyone also got much more mechanical. Players higher up in the tier list have both the cognitive and mechanical skill.
by the virtue of intent, its always better to have higher actions. the only way to have higher actual action is to have more. therefore more is better, mechanical player has the advantage always, in theory. therefore zerg is the highest cap and thus the best race! i fuqn love scbw.
Things deal full damage against shields, so they're always gonna go away faster. Also, damage sponges like Zealots have mostly armor. Plus what Stefan said.
@@Jamesgalc-gs8wu Eventually, maybe, sure, but consider this: Hydralisks, Siege Tanks and a variety of other units deal explosive damage. This damage type deals half damage to small units (like Zealots, the favourite HP sponge) but full damage to shields. So already against many popular units in the game, several of Protoss' best units (High Templars are also small) take twice the damage to their shields, making the shield upgrade half as efficient while costing twice as much. It does get researched *sometimes* when games go long enough, but there's almost always something better to use the forge and the resources on.
I love how active ZeLoT is. He's always trying something on the map somewhere. Unfortunately he did just keep losing large chunks of supply from overcommitments to cool ideas that got overwhelmed by Rain bringing his whole army to bear. Great game, sad to see ZeLoT go down like this.
your breakdown of "brainy" vs "aggressive" vs "macro" players is quite interesting because once upon a time people thought basically this exact-same way about Chess, except in Chess it was about being defensive, aggressive, or just incredibly solid. 40ish years ago, chess players were often described as being one of those 3, where defensive players' primary strategy was to just push as much into the board as possible, while aggressive players would play very risky, and the solid players were balanced, not very defensive but still would push and not very aggressive but still takes risks from time to time. nowadays you cant really be GM in Chess without being able to do everything, and we mostly have DeepBlue, a notoriously powerful Chess AI, to thank for that. Garry Kasparov remarked that fighting DeepBlue was like fighting a Blackhole, because it would take everything you throw at it like it was nothing, sidestepping all of your plans, playing both EXTREMELY risky AND heavily defensively by pushing like crazy, and pulling many tricks out of its sleeve that at the time were largely unheard of. Nowadays a lot of the playstyle that DeepBlue had is actually kind of standard in Chess for humans to play, ie pushing like crazy and having a very strong intuition on what risks are very good to take.
Interesting!
This is the most well thought out statement out of all the people that has commented on anything Artosis has done.
Since you made this interesting comparison to chess, are there any games of SC with some of the world's top chess players like Magnus Carlsen, Fabiano Caruana, Hikaru Nakamura, ... ? A while back I tried to search but did not find any.
Very interesting stuff, I think that the features you listed for DeepBlue are kind of what makes a good brain/solid bw player that funily enough do feel a liitle AI like if you ask me. They adapt so well in the moment because they are so smart and can read and detect patterns with more ease than others allowing them can go back and forth between defensive and risky type of play when needed. They make risky/coinflippy play less risky because how good they are at analizing when to take those risks.
I can think of one player for each race that embodies that superior style: the first one of course it's Flash, not only for the Terran race but for the entire game, he is the ultimate mastermind with no close second, unique forever, then for Protoss it's Rain and for Zerg that would be Soulkey (Artosis you are very wrong here, it's not Shine) Soulkey is the zerg's Flash imo, the smartest zerg around, the best defensive macro style, with a serious potential for agressive play that has a very high effectiveness ratio because he is so smart and know better than others when to, and when not to.
@@TomaszWinnicki not that im aware of, no unfortunately :D
Arty should know by now to wear a sweater casting these games. He's always having chills.
he's a sensitive guy what you gonna do
So I stumbled across your channel trying to find tutorial videos of how to play this game better (me and my 2 bothers would all play against 1 ai and still not win). We played this game in our childhood but never really had a good grasp on how to actually play the game. Now we play this game to keep in touch since they are both in the military and live around the world. In any case I not only learned a TON of info from watching your channel but this is now a part of my daily schedule and I appreciate ALL of the commentary that you add, from beginner to advanced tips and info I soak it all in. We are now able to survive against the computer but unfortunately it's only in cheesy ways like cannon containment. In any case thank you for what you do, you just gained a subscriber or three ;)
Goodluck with broodwar. This is a fun game
@@goodisgood153 thank you sir, I have been!
@@Water2Spicy Practice by playing the campaign. It teaches you all the basics and helps you build your fundamentals (micro, macro, expansion timing etc) until you can easily smash several AI's by yourself.
Ah so that's why he's named Rain, because he comes with the storms.
Speaking of move outs, my wife moved out last week. Something about me spending too much money on Mario Erotica. I don’t know, I wasn’t really paying attention because I was watching your stream.
Anyways, women are crazy, right RT?
It's really fun to watch series between players on this channel, I hope we can get more of these in the future. Thanks for the casts!
Rain read every single on of his moves. It was really incredible. Even when the mutas come he has the gas for more and more high Templar.
This series is such a nice gift, can't wait to see how Rain will tame Zelot's aggressiveness.
My wish: you get more top players to play long series like this. To me this is like a new format for a tournament. Insanely fun to watch
Rain after seeing hydras outside his natural for the 1000th time: Kurt Angle Stare
Zelot had some amazing micro at the start. Very impressive.
I think where Rain won this was that his mid game attacks were way more efficient as he had high numbers of range goons against small numbers of hydras. It’s a bit like TVP, where the big mech ball can’t be attacked piece meal by small amounts of Protoss units…
@18:19 great cast Artosis. This is the excitement why I subscribed.
Feels like a big difference between ZeLot and someone like Queen or SoulKey, is ZeLot is eating all the storms we see, while the others dodge some of them.
And this (among other reasons) is why I think SC should be extended to offer players the ability to program their own strategy/tactical macros. Imagine playing Terran and in a longer lasting game, where you have full tech, you have a tactical unit of marines, goliaths, tanks, vessels and a couple of ghosts. Your focus is somewhere else and your group runs into a larger Protoss group with a couple of carriers. By default the ghosts will just use standard fire on the carriers or other units in range. But suppose you had the ghosts programmed to prioritize locking down the carriers. Or in this particular game have the clumped up hydras spread out and get out of the storm. But if the group of zealots, dragoons and templars is small enough, eat the storm and keep pushing. It would open up a whole new area of game-play in SC.
@@TomaszWinnicki No
@@TomaszWinnicki you gotta be trolling
@@TomaszWinnicki I would've been happy if there was just an auto build of scarabs and interceptors on RMB.
@@TomaszWinnicki that's something for a new RTS, not Starcraft. And at that point it's more of a hybrid game than pure RTS since your units would be controlling themselves to an extent...sort of like setting up your own AI bot to play the game.
I as a viewer only like watching terran matchups but man these pvz games with rain and zelot are so freaking amazing. zelot is my favourite zerg to watch because of his aggressive play and always wants me needing to see more :). Thank you RT for all the hardwork you put into these casts. You are the best caster of all time ( though I admire every single caster for the love of this game).
he sniped so many high templars and got rain to waste so many storms w the mutas. such an interesting tactic
yeah but mutas are not cheap either, they're 100/100 so trading a group of muta for 8 templar is breaking even at gas cost
Excellent storms from Rain won the game. Zealot did not counter with dark swarms or plagues. It would be interesting if we could see end game stats which would show what unit/attack caused the amount of hit points damage, other units destroyed.
Love how Rain proves your point about how cognitive he is in his muta defense. He perfectly predicts the exit path that Zelot will take at the third, three storms that nearly kill the mutas and don't even touch his templar or corsairs.
You've gotten me back into BW again and it's so fun to just 3v1 the ai on a huge map
Another fantastic battle. Seeing micro in Broodwar is just on another level as there is way less A-moving than in starcraft 2
Let's go Rain!!
16:18 Come on ZeLoT. Make Guardians out of those Mutalisks!!!
Finished work and come home to a new rain zealot game to watch fantastic feeling thank arty!
I've got chills watching this.
And in Magic, aggro beats control. Control beats midrange. Midrange beats aggro.
Superb game. Such a good series. Really showcases the mastery on both sides.
Every game I watch in this playlist arty is getting some chills ;D
Could you put these in a playlist Arty? That'd be awesome! Thank you for casting all the same
Is it worth to start learning starcraft 1 or is the lower leagues non exsistent or still ceiling is too high? 😊😊
RT "Hey guys" octave level 6
I bet in the next game we're going to see a zergling all-in again, or maybe even a 4pool :)
Zelot has very good game sense he's literally only losing because he stops making drones after midgame. That's the only difference between him and higher level zergs. I wish I could just talk to him and be like "hey bro, after 10 minutes into the game, keep making a drone or two every minute". It would make him play like 50% stronger with no extra effort
Hey Artosis :) love the channel man, have for awhile!
Just wondering, besides the obvious best Terran player of all time being Flash, who would you place second?
I've been following professional Starcraft for about 15 years now and I only recently became a protoss supremacist and this game is a prime example of why. That being said Arty can you please please please organize a professional 2v2v2 race War Tournament? Thatd be great, thanks.
where there is rain, there are storms
3:45 sick scout evasion
It really speaks to the tenacity of these players, especially Rain so far, that they've played 14 games in a row, and Artosis after 6 of them was like "I'll need 2 weeks before I can look at another ZeLoT hydra bullshittery :D
Still blown away by the fact that we're getting such great games quarter a century after the game was published. (and that Artosis got even better at casting? Is the missus spiking maple syrup with some Quebec-original Rock Machine MC rocks?)
And since yesterday - Ding Dong, the witch is dead! Well, "left the company" with millions of dollars severence, but hey - no more Bob Kotick! Maybe MS will reverse the Fuck You Korea and e-sports 2023 Terms of Service.
16:43 NERD CHILLS
This is a great series
Ludacris Psi Storms. Awesome game. Loving this long series.
chills @ 12:35
13:14 - Aftershock chills
I feel like zealot’s playstyle with slightly better multitasking would be unstoppable. Like if effort took up his builds
few reasons not to 3 hatch hydra, the overall ZvP win timings coincide with the timing attack so well
Are u able to force scan to play against calm?
I think Hyuk is a great example of the "mechanical beast" that lacks the deep cognitive approach players higher up in the tiers have. He's arguably the most mechanically gifted and skilled, but lacks results post remastered because the game has become so much more cerebral while everyone also got much more mechanical. Players higher up in the tier list have both the cognitive and mechanical skill.
That mutalisk massacre made me vomit.
Rain is such a pleasure to watch.
knew who'd win after the game lasted over 7 mins
Amazing! Can’t wait to see the rest, rooting for zelot now
this series rules
15:41 My life for Aiur!
i got a laugh out or three out of this so thanks stranger
Why is the plasma shield upgrade so bad?
Is this 5:50 the skeleton of a hydra?
Nah, some weird indigenous beastie
by the virtue of intent, its always better to have higher actions. the only way to have higher actual action is to have more. therefore more is better, mechanical player has the advantage always, in theory. therefore zerg is the highest cap and thus the best race! i fuqn love scbw.
How are these games so good?
I feel like Zelot is almost TOO aggressive sometimes. Like, my mans, calm down and build up your army!
Same game, same races, almost same level of skill, and still, there is so much difference between all the matches they played
is it possible to say stylistically Zelot is the boxer slayer of zerg? haha
Great game!
Why does he names himself Zelot but plays Zerg!?
Great match.
Anyone else hear chills as overly sexual?
Why not plasma shields? Why does no one get that? @artosis - also did July Zerg play BW? Can we see his games?
200 minerals/gas and shields take full dog from everything
Things deal full damage against shields, so they're always gonna go away faster. Also, damage sponges like Zealots have mostly armor. Plus what Stefan said.
@@miramosa7768 still not worth it even if you have extra minerals and gas?
@@Jamesgalc-gs8wu Eventually, maybe, sure, but consider this: Hydralisks, Siege Tanks and a variety of other units deal explosive damage. This damage type deals half damage to small units (like Zealots, the favourite HP sponge) but full damage to shields. So already against many popular units in the game, several of Protoss' best units (High Templars are also small) take twice the damage to their shields, making the shield upgrade half as efficient while costing twice as much. It does get researched *sometimes* when games go long enough, but there's almost always something better to use the forge and the resources on.
Would turned them Mutas guardians
chills
Awesome!!!
one way match, Rain far far away from his top form though.
For the algo
was like dang I watched the last video and here's a new one
_GG!_
I love how active ZeLoT is. He's always trying something on the map somewhere. Unfortunately he did just keep losing large chunks of supply from overcommitments to cool ideas that got overwhelmed by Rain bringing his whole army to bear. Great game, sad to see ZeLoT go down like this.
YEEEEEEEEES finally
Advanced Happy New Year!
: )
ggg
First! Great videos, keep up the awesome work!
blah!