We FINALLY fix 488 Pista's Alignment! - Manthey Racing
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- Опубликовано: 2 апр 2020
- This is a bit more of a Technical video so I hope you enjoy seeing what we expect out of our cars for track use here at Apex!
Yesterday was the day... 15 months of not knowing what I wanted to do with the 488 Pista and I finally broke down, admitted that I needed to improve the set up on the car in order to hopefully be happy with it. I enlisted the help of Manthey Racing / Räder Motorsport to get the set up to where it needs to be!
Thanks guys for another job well done!!
As I made a speaking error in the video while looking at the numbers and trying to state the camber increase on the front end at 13:48 .. you can read the figures here to be clear:) We doubled camber on the front .8 to 1.6
Stock Alignment
Front:
Toe out 1 degree
.8 degrees camber
Rear
Toe in 2 degrees
1.8 degrees camber
----------------------------------------------
After Manthey Adjustments
Front
Toe in 1 degree
1.6 degrees camber
Rear
Toe in 2 degrees
1.9 degrees camber
Also have a look at the day's vlog from Misha for a little different angle on the operation! • World's First Ferrari ...
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Hallo Robert, this type of vídeo talk about the modifications on the cars are really nice
Amazing video! Give us more race car build, workshop insight, alignement, before and after compare content! In other words, more specific petrolhead content!
Funny that the “track” version of the car is not set up for track
Porsche not any better, first thing to do is proper alignment for any of the GT models.
This is why engineers are sent to Motortrend and others to set up the suspension correctly so they get good times. I think it should be done from Factory but whatever.
@@eichler721 just think about it,there are maybe 10 owners that took the car on the track(talking about the people that bought the pista) and maybe 8 out of them took it for a one time thing or they are not that fast....so sadly the car isnt for them and Ferrari knows this,and gives you the best experience on the road....sadly many of them are not even running on the roads and just sit but that is a completely different discussion
Geometry is a personal preference . There's hardly any car from factory that will suit people who knows how they like their cars to handle . That's the reason we do the Geometry which suits to us personally. It might not suit others.
@@TheLTcousins a Pista is faster then any other supercar on track except the GT2RS. The Pista beats the 720S do ya it is fast. And alot more then 8 people take it to the track. So you could say 8 out of 10 don't but it would help the handling for road use as well so no reason not to do it.
Great video! A Pista at Manthey, Robert will probably get the "Chris Harris" treatment by Ferrari :-) Warranty invalid, no seven years free servicing, no courtesy car, no freebies, no invitations to events, no Fiorano, a restraining order in Maranello, no test drives, only able to buy a second hand California T without service history from a Ferrari dealer. Oh well, the taxi's is better around the Ring.
B J, LOL
Ferrari is not so bad. Most find this to be pretty cool and several dealers in Europe are okay with Manthey doing setups.
@@AB-80X Ferrari is by far the most annoying company ever on this aspect, even lowering the car on the already given coilovers void the warranty. These cars are just so weird imho, like the engine and chassis etc are made to blast on track, but then the allignment, tune, and all the warranty stuff block it out. Its like Ferrari just wants their cars to sit in a garage for "investors" to make money!
@@yarniewullaert2025
You are wrong on that. Last week I had my 488 on the bench for allignment. Just prior to that, I had it balanced. I also run Pagid RSL1 pads and Surface Transforms brakes which I installed myself. On top of that, my dealer did my brake fluid flush and change to Castrol SRF fluid.
No warranty issues what so ever and have never heard of warranties being void because of lowering. I use one of the largest dealers by the way.
Are the issues you speak of from personal experience?
@@yarniewullaert2025
I will also point out that Ferraris are in fact not that track ready. My dealer discovered that my front bushes are in need of a change due to heat from the brakes. I'm sure Robert will encounter this at some point. I have more than 10000 track km on my 488, so I know its weaknesses. I also replaced the rubber brake lines with HEL braided PTFE lines - again no warranty issues. Ferrari has however agreed to replace my bushes under warranty.
Great content. Love the technical deep dives...these are the best.
Thank you for the kind words and support:-)
Tom - thank you very much for not adding music when Robert is speaking. I can hear him much more clearly now. The security camera footage is a nice touch. I like how you blurred the houses in the background.
Best video from Robert so far! Really in depth and really utilized excellent with all the details! Thanks for this!
Wow, great explanation with maximum detail and in correct English. The video is also top class ! Great work Robert
Love these videos where you go into the technical details. Always do a great job of explaining everything good stuff. Ride height looking much better now!.
Glad you still have the pista, loving the videos Robert along with misha, keep them coming. 👏🏽
I learn more about automotive engineering during your videos than in the courses in my university...
Made me start to think about my car's alignment - thx for that. Love the sound of the Pista, you all be safe and healthy.
Love the technical info. It’s great to hear such a humble approach to these cars. Hopefully were all back to normal life soon than later. ❤️ from Canada.
Hey Robert,
thanks for helping us with creating car and schleife-content to get over the lockdown time.
I am missing the ring every day.
Hope to see you guys again in the not so distant future.
Best regards
I was looking forward to this video already but the insight is simply even better than I hoped. Where else so you get an owner talking about how their car acts on the track and how the changes they’re going to make are going to change it on track. Simply brilliant. My favourite way of learning (apart from hands on) Thank you Robert. Plus the car looks better!
Great video and insight! And happy that the changes worked out well!
Robert driving style:
Fast car, slow drive, enjoying the ride...
Slow car, PUUUUUUUSH
Great video again guys! Robert is really going on RUclips! Love it! Great editing Tom! Cheers guys!
These videos are extra special for us on lockdown, gotta finish Robert's then go watch Misha's. Thx for the extra vids
I watched Misha fitst :-P
Really nice to you Robert for explaning all this. As a rc racer (with touring cars), we play a lot with these settings, and funny enough, what we get in 1/10 and 1/8 scale seems to be valid for a real car also. And please keep us updated on how it turns out in track (maybe you already did, if so, i will across that video later on...)
Really cool video! Can't wait for the track to open again.
that makes two of us!!
Tom, your new videos are amazing!!
Nice video, very appreciated all the technical details!
Love the technical chat. Not typically a Ferrari fan but aesthetically your Pista looks damn good in this spec and with the drop.
Very informative format.
Thank You.
great video and tunes! thanks Robert and Tom :D
Thank you for posting the alignment numbers !
Ive got something look forward to now seen as though yes years ring trip is cancelled :( I cant wait to watch the video and hear the feedback!
It is still a beautiful spec Pista... Amazing car Robert!
awesome! hope all issues get sort out
Good video Robert. I like the tecnicol stuff. Informative and well explained👍 And great HD shots of the cupra😂
Looking even better. What a spec.
7:05 I can't be the only one thinking of K-DST.
Radio X and K-DST were the preferred radio stations of CJ :P
That is one hell of a specced Pista!
Looks incredible
Thank you very much:)
Great video , very useful information for track enthusiasts.
Yes! Finally,pista content.been waiting for this since last year.
I hope you enjoy it!
Cant wait for the post setup lap review!
Pretty shocking the way these things are setup from the factory. I guess they're doing everything they can to keep their clientele from putting them in ditches. While I'm sure it's nice to not have to slow down to hop the curb to the Apex driveway, that front ride height has to create lift at speed. Really cool to hear this level of in-depth analysis on the handling of these exotic cars!
The fast steering is actually not bad, that's a very personal thing. But the understeer is pretty annoying.
I have always said you should keep it. So if anything good comes out of the corona situation - here it is 😉
Great video. Looking forward to see your review after a run at the track. 👍
You have become my new guide for track alignments!
I wouldn't use this guy as your guide for alignment. He doesn't genuinely seem to understand the real effects of toe in and toe out. He's also not really explained the link between camber and grip from front to rear. Toe in, is NOT a track alignment. Toe in is used for high speed straight line stability. It will make turn in lazier, slower and less keen. The whole point of toe out is that balancing it correctly, allows the inside and outside tyres to track the road correctly on turn-in. It has nothing to do with "dragging and making the car stable in a straight line". I actually have no idea why robert keeps going on about "toe out" making the car more stable in a straight line, it does literally the exact opposite of this. Toe out has the front wheels fighting each other and makes steering more twitchy, these are the downsides of the fact that it also allows for fantastic turn-in response on entry into a corner.
Toe-In, increases straight line stability, but at expense of cornering grip and turn in sharpness.
This guy needs to go learn about track alignments property, rather than repeating stuff he thinks he knows.
You are Misha uploading at the very same time. Games are getting strong. I got two tabs open.
haha enjoy the next 40 min!
@@RobertMitchell i surely will 👍
Absolutely GREAT video content, Robert!
As fresh Pista owner and hard-core trackday aficionado (at the Ring, so I will for sure see you around + Spa & co.), I look forward to the video with the info how the Pista now handles on track (I haven't tracked my Pista yet, took delivery of it just before the coronavirus issue).
I come from 991.1 GT3RS, 997.2 GT3RS, Cayman GT4, etc. and I hope the Pista will not disappoint me too much with the stock setup... Based on what you explain, it will and this is why the result of the MR setting is of high interest for me!
really good explanation.
thanks for that 👍
Love the new format
Great insight, thanks for sharing
Fascinating to watch AND LEARN! Just what a broke petrol head like me enjoys. You certainly know your stuff. Amazing to get to understand the differences in a Ferrari setup compared to a tack driver prefers.
So well explained. I can almost see Ferrari suspension engineers diligently taking notes for the next Pista/Speciale/CS...
Just drive through Nürburg 30min ago and was so in love seeing the Pista 👌
too bad the current times dont allow me to say 'stop in say hi'!! Next time :)
Robert Mitchell so we can really look forward to these better times that we always have called „regular“ before.
Great vid mate ! Cheers 👍
Interesting video. Hope the channel does well. It deserves it.
Thank you for the kind words !
Will be interested to hear when the Pista does its next track day.
Excited to see how much different you think the track driving is. I love the Pista and if you get a full suspension for the car I would love a comparison to the GT2RS suspension and get your thoughts.
Super interesting detail. Not that I’m gonna be setting up a Pista any time soon.
Awesome video thanks Robert
erm merr grd dat paint doe. Not a Ferrari guy but they hit the design out of the park on that one.
Thanks Robert for the process of education..
This was great content. You really understand car set-up! Maybe some more technical vids in future?
There's only so much you can lower the car with the OEM suspension before you run into the issue of not having enough damper travel, so it's not surprising that Ferrari have limited it to 10-11mm lower than stock.
You may also want to look at adding more caster if Ferrari has made it possible. Not only will it help the stabilize the steering on its own, but for the same amount of static camber (as measured on the alignment rack), it will gain more dynamic camber as the wheel is turned and you go through the turn.
when in doubt, KW
hehe
@@RobertMitchell öhlins road & track. Do it Robert!
KW is absolutely the best investment I ever made with my GT3RS
@@49fiori How firm is it? I find the suspension on my 991.1 GT3RS to be pretty damn back breaking.
ABOlsen80X I would say it’s the same, any city ride is painful 😀
Thanks Robert, you saved me from spending a whole stack of cash on a 488 Pista that handles like a complete sack of shit on track :):):)
Shall stick with my Fiesta ST-3 till Ferrari get their act together!
Phew, so close to wasting my time on a 'monster truck'
But seriously I hope this won't effect your 'history of ownership' regarding a future invitation to the latest & greatest Ferrari.
0.8 deg of camber in the front! Goodness (or badness) me, that's more upright than a fence hahaha. Very insightful with regards to Ferrari's factory alignment and driving characteristics. Can't wait to see how the Pista (should they have rather called it the Strada?) performs, post alignment!
Hi Robert,
One thing to try and can help to understand the setup and what to change is a bump steer analysis, how camber and toe changes with ride height/bump-rebound situations.
Very interesting video. Thanks.
great content, thanks and keep it up!
It's so beautiful
That was interesting .....ok I enjoy geek stuff of the mechanical kind .thanks !
Robert, thanks so much for the content, I really enjoy this type of Tech big time!
Can't wait for the follow up on how the drive has improved for the track...except for the couple high compression spots on the track.
The Pista always looked almost as high up as a Forester, but still looked good...kind of need it if there is no lift?
Loved this!
I just saw a video where Wheels Boutique in Miami put an IPE exhaust and Novitec lowering springs on the 488 Pista and even looking at yours I didnt realize just how high that car was until i saw it on lowering springs with a 1 inch gap between the tire and fender. They also stuck HRE wheels and a 355 size tire on the back which is huge compared to the 305 that comes on the back.
Thanks for the entertaining videos over the last weeks and very big thanks for playing good music (i.e. NOT using Hip Hop or rap 'music') 😂
Nice weekend, stay healthy and hopefully see you soon at the ring!
I may have to drop some rap some day. We shall see hehe
Wow you have a clean inner wheel Arch on your pista 😯
Great vid great music😎
Can't wait to see you back on the ring with the pista and I really hope the adjustments make the car shine for you, it is a beautiful thing. Just out of curiosity, how did the techs over at Manthey Racing enjoy working on a Ferrari?
Don’t tell Misha but, your editing is way better. ;-)
Great content Robert, really quite unique on RUclips. One small technical comment - your toe measurement in is in millimeters, which is another way of measuring it other than angle. Normally you would not run 1 deg toe in/out as that's a lot.
Yes mm just a slip of words :-). Glad you’re enjoying the vids !!!
Really well commented and justified for the changes, and also how you clarify that is your taste and your opinion and how you feel it so no one can say anything about it. Is going to be interesting to hear your outcomes once is driven on the track and if at that point is required to change the stiffness of either springs or antiroll bars to remove some more understeer tendency
Your channel just popped up in my feed. What a gem this is fucking awesome. Subscribed!
Thank you so much for the kind words! Hopefully I can keep up some solid content for you guys
Thank you so much for the kind words! Hopefully I can keep up some solid content for you guys :-)
You need to slam the car, widebody it, new 24” rims and twin turbo with a supercharger and 200 shot of NOS. Do that and you can be a REAL youtuber. Hope you get her running better.
I think it’s the only next logical RUclips step!
don't forget the compulsory wraping of the car, preferably in a flashy camouflage combination ;)
And please remove the back bumper :) :D
Thank you guys for the tips. April mods are now planned 🤣🤣
Also, can you please review the carporn fiberr interior trim 4 us Robert? Also, I have a Peugeot 207 1.4 and would like to know how many minutes I can save on my nurburing lap if I install carbon fiberr wrapped gear shifter? Many thanks!
I track pista with slicks as well .
My take is to make the front track wider /
And it won’t contact with the liner . It’s just the inside of the tire that contact
Mine was rubbing on the top of the tire to the inner fender well:-). Not on the inside
Hi Robert, great video, great info about alignment. Can I ask abotu your f80 m3 apex taxi : what toe in/out u prefere for f80 m3 ? Thank you
Great video! Thanks you very much! You could post same tables with before and after to see more easy the differences. I hope next is a video with timing differences on the ring. Whats the gain in one lap the car will have with the new setup?
Really good video Robert, love detail & behind the scenes like this. Big thumbs up!! Please let us know what you think about the steering now as my Nissan GTR has the exact same snappy steering & I'd like to dial it out if I can 👍
Digging the video, thanks!
Really surprised at the alignment specs on this car out of the box and the inability to really adjust for more camber. Hmm. Curious to hear your feedback on it though!
I think that not many people are adjusting these cars.. .quite limited unfortunately. I have learned that if you want to have true track cars, these are not the property base to get there
You would be shocked at how many cars, also "sports" cars don't allow for any or very little adjustment with stock suspension. Sadly when you watch review of a car like Pista you dont get a chance to see elements of suspension and underbody, so you don't get to see how many cars are equipped with camber plates etc.
If you ever get a reply from Ferrari, I'd be very amazed. Great video and nice listening to the before and afters with the suspension.
Ferrari set-up is in wheel travel terms a lot like Lotus. Compliant is quicker on the public road and bumpy tracks... Michael Schumacher inisted on this and it has been part of the DNA since the F430
Great insight....in case you were wondering 360/360cs/430/430scud all run positive toe out and run more camber front/rear....I think the front end wasn't setup correctly on your pista. 488gtb has factory -1.5 camber not sure why 488 pista would be running so little front camber from factory....here is spec sheer for 360/360cs/430/430scud (i.imgur.com/PovKdxH.png)
roletnabih is there a sheet like this for the 488GTB & Pista?....thanks
OMG good music, too 😍
On all the modern Ferrari's you need to unload the spring ie: remove the assembly & compress the spring, the threads on the collars do not have the tolerance to be adjusted with a load on them. they can easily become "crossed". There is enough thread on the collars to lower it radically. :)
Cool video 👍🏻
epic video !
That was good video.👍
Nice new desk in the old reception.! So even when it's a Ferrari named Pista it's a Monaco posing car with understeer, bad steering and bodyroll? Awtch :D Glad you sort it out! PS I like your E92 most, I have one almost like that myself... :D
Robert, this is a very common misunderstanding. With most suspension types if you drop the car 10 mm the roll centers drop anything between 20 to 30 mm. That means that the arm from the suspension linkage force center (RC) to the CoG actually increases. So with most cars just dropping without changing AR-bars or/and springs you can not diminish roll. You will actually increase it! You will however diminish lateral weight transfer as ultimately (statically, center corner) it is only a function of track width and CoG altitude.
You were probably lucky not to be able to drop the Pista more. If you do that you will need an aftermarket adjustability. If you dont believe, go and ask the Manthey vehicle dynamicists, not the ones who think they know (there always is those).
Yeah, Ive done race engineering and my homework.
This is all true DEPENDING on how the car is set up from the factory in my case the car is set way too high and even beyond their factory desired set up. (A mistake) There is always the point of Diminishing results as you mention but you’re assuming that we would have gone beyond that?! from what we measured another 7mm lower would have been ideal and would not have run the Control arms too low. My car came ready for Dakar Rally. . Of course in any set up you have to be reasonable. Also changing springs is not the answer. If you Lower too much with springs, it’s the same issue as your going to have as the geometry of the control arm change just the same. The only correct way to do it uf you really want to change The ride height dramatically and correctly is by using a shorter spring and relocating the mounting point of the lower control arm or by simply lowering the car with a drop Spindel. If your car is higher than optimal deign demands and you bring it lower to where it should have been then yes you will correct Te cog and yes you will reduce roll. I don’t want to be rude but suggesting a spring fixes the issue your implying we may have has is very wrong as that makes the problem even worse as it dramatically changes the geo of the lower control arm when you go too far. so a little more homework May be needed... or at least better clarification. Also: the car drives now 100 times better and in photos has noticeably less body roll. Go a few videos forward and the results are in I believe this is about the best that the Pista can get on stock components.
Well, first of all I can tell from your other video that you are an analytic driver, sort of ”dream driver” for the engineer.
Second, everything I said stays put and everything you said is valid - most of the time.
You may know that the RC in this kinda cars is lower at the front as at the rear. My preference is to keep the front RC above the ground level. Actually RC at the ground or at the proximity of it means that lateral and vertical loads are decoupled in the contact patch and it gives a nice turn in on uneven surface (given that your roll stiffness split is ok). I always try to get all the numbers and feed them to an excel sheet Ive done to see how the parameters affect (first in relation to ”handbook values” and ultimately to the roll stiffness ratio).
Ive never really seen TUV accepted spindles with lowered pic up points. What it usually means they bespoke for racing purposes (given the regs allow). However, I noticed that the pic up points at the inboard of the Pista are half clever and actually might offer a way to lower the inboard points. But is it worth it? Most likely not as you are happy with the car now.
Also consider what might have happened also is that lowering the car affected the roll stiffnes ratio between fr and r.
About the toe-in/toe-out I agree with you. I dont think any car in the traffic should have toe-out at front as it makes a darty. Further more toe-out at fr usually helps only in the slowest corners - and if the car has an understeer characteristics. If you can load the rear tyres then you dont need toe-out even in slow corners. In an old fashioned rally car I can understand a desire to parallel steering so that front wheels do not create resistance while opposite steering.
One more further thing about lowering the car is the aero. The Pista has a diffusor at the rear and they get progressively more efficient the closer ground you get (until they stall in a race car at close top speeds).
Anyeway, I really enjoyed your video and the way you talk about driving and cars. (Yeah, Misha is doing a good job too). I have a 996 myself built for B-roads with Bilstein B16-kit, Powerflex polyurethane bushes, Eibach adjustable AR-bar at rear and OEM at front. I had the Eibach adjustable at front but it made the car too warp stiff for B-roads. Ive tried my car at 4 or 5 different ride heights. Conclusively it is now pretty much at the swweet spot for my driving profile. Im not totally happy with the front dampers though. The cut-off comes at too high piston speed (911 is quite easy to get bounncing at fr).
Ok, this is all talk. What really matters is that driving is fun. I hope to come to Ring again one day. Ive only ever done three laps there - 16 years ago, in a Saab and I only got like 130 km/h out of it in the hill after Bergwerk. Given a similar car Im probably 60..90 seconds slower than you.
Thanks for good entertainment.
First
Winning!!!!
If you are not first, you are not a true Russian
Using Robert's cheatcodes ey :D
Really cool breakdown on car setup and the Pista in particular. There is little to no value proposition in modding a Pista, so what are the characteristics or thinking in adapting the car. What makes the Pista worthwhile keeping/investing in? Outside of the current market situation of course.
You can lower it all the way down! But the threads are very sensitive they have to be 100% clean
I thought there was a more brown tinge to the colour. I would definitely mix the grey with brown to produce a new colour scheme. I didn't realise how small the 488 is.
Thank you Robert for the insight into the way you want your Pista to drive and feel. I do find that odd with the suspension threads not going any lower. As I said in Misha’s comments Ferrari should listen to the 1% of its drivers that want tweaks/changes that would improve the car on track. You mentioned about perhaps completely changing the suspension, but would that affect the Ferrari warranty?
Yes it would for sure cause an issue with warranty and I’m sure they’d even write me a letter telling me I ruined their car..... I think it’s not the platform for modding anyhow
Fantastic material. Totally surprised that you couldn't utilise the thread on the damper, makes you wonder why it's there in the first place. Did you lose travel?
Hi Robert!. Do you know what spring rates and motion ratios (or wheel rate or ride frequency) does the Pista have with stock springs?
Thank you and great video 🙂🙂
What a great video. Very helpful.
One thing. The dry weight of the Pista is not 1300, but rather 1385, so you are "only" 167 over wet w. 30 kg driver. That's not bad at all.
ok! I thought it was advertised under 1300 :)
@@RobertMitchell
Have you considered running other brakes on the Pista? I have worked with Surface Transforms and thei CCST discs, and am running the first set on a 488 and Pista. Works awesome.
Some fantastic insight here! I think this Ferrari needs better tyres too. Cup2R for example👍
They’re available !! Will try them this summer