Depends on what you need at the time you're playing, if you need high attack- aztecs, if you need speed- celts, if you need discount and production speed- goths etc.
Regarding cumans: I think that the descriprion of steppe husbandry mentions 'cavalry archers' as a unit line, not as a unit type. Afterall, it does not affect kipchaks either, and they are definitely cav archers.
I suspect that might be reasoning behind a few of these exclusions, where in the background code the bonus is refencing the skirmisher or cav archer unit lines specifically and not class they fall under.
@@zaleost The weirdest one is recurve bow for magyars. It does work on kipchak, so it should affect all cav archers in general, but the genitour remains unaffected.
Gotta say, was not expecting silk armor to apply to the Genitour That does make them the generally better option than Skirmishers as Tatars, especially since the Genitours are able to keep up the late-game Tatar army's mobility
I remember that Turk and Berbers bonus from a video you made years ago called 'Top 10 allies in AOE2'. With how many civs there are in the game now I would LOVE to see another video like that again with a top 10 or 15 (maybe also honourable mentions) civ combos. Heck here's a silly one. Mongol Siege Rams with Drill + Malay Karambit Warriors = Mongol Clown Cars.
Mongol Siege Rams with Drill + Teutonic Knights = speed and pierce damage protection for the Teutonic Knights, with a check for most melee units that threaten the rams. I say most just because of things like the Leitis, Obuch and Wootz Steel users.
Interestingly from gameplay perspective, Turks and Berbers are actually a weird combo, Turks are better making scouts (thanks to that +1 pierce armor) so Berbers would need to make archers, but in castle, Berbers are better making cavalries so Turks needs to swap tech into something ranged like cav archers and Janissaries both of which will guaranteed a timing where Berbers needs to fend off attack from 2 players all by himself until you massed enough ranged units to join the battle. Not to mention both civs team bonuses only helps during imperial and one of them, the genitours are going to be ignored if trade is possible. Also on the topic of Silly wombo combo, I recommend Korean Celts mangonel combo, both just make mangonels for the entire game. They produced faster and have less minimum range while both having respective bonuses on their mangonel line.
I left my auto-captions on and amusingly during this video YT kept referring Genitours as "Janitors" throughout the video. We clearly need a video about which civ's Janitors have the best cleaning abilities.
@@jefffinkbonner9551 What if it's like the unicorn civilisation with the Kipchaks... but for the Mayans, the rider just jumps off and becomes an Imp Skirm & the horse keeps running around throwing spears out of its head (Magudai, Kipchaks & Cavalry Archers: What's the Difference?).
Am I the only one to think that we need the cav archer bonuses that affect genitours should be corrected to say "Mounted archers"? That way we would know when the game talks about just the cavalry archer unit or if it includes genitours, elephant archers, camel archers, etc...
That probably would help, especially in this case. Although I do wonder if to some extent the devs just really didn't consider team units when writing some of these bonuses thinking it would only matter for base units in their own tech tree.
@@zaleost Perhaps, but if you look at the Mongols, they have two units that have the Cavalry Archer class, the archery range cav archers and the Mangudais. So I think it would be a good thing if the Cavalry Archer class was renamed to mounted archer, especially since it includes Genitours, Elephant Archers and Camel Archers, so that whenever the game says Cavalry Archer, we know that it's just talking about the archery range unit.
The Parthian Tactics thing makes sense to me from a balance perspective, genitours with all that armor would probably be too strong. On the other hand, if they took away base armor and let Parthian Tactics apply, genitours would be really bad for civs without the tech. On the other hand, for Byzantines, I think the devs should have let them get away with the cheap genitours. They don't have bloodlines so how broken could it be?
Yes, 10 or higher pierce armor with Parthian tactics or Lith Tower Shields will make genitours almost like rams against arrows, which is too much for not expensive trash unit. However it looks ok to allow for genitours Byz discount, Cumans Steppe husbandry, Lith speed bonus.
Thanks for the video Spirit! Im getting a surgery tomorrow and wouldn't have been able to sleep at peace through the anesthesia without this second genitour video. Definitely gonna make a custom genitour civ when I get back to stack some of these bonuses. Keep up the good work you always make my day!
Maybe the reason the dev remove cav archer +4 against building is that they fear the genitour will be the mini siege against building in post imperial situation where they can flee from halbs and have enough HP to fight hussar..
@@yahm0n It's called 'balance' bro. Unless you want to 'respect 20 years of tradition' by returning to endless Hun wars on Arabia and monk spam on Arena. Try AoE 1 ranked if you want to see what that feels like.
@@Hamanuna The sling & atlatl both of which have been used in many places in the world I believe... was big for hunters in many human societies. They kind of work along the same principle/animation I think/might argue. There might be a reasoning there for why that works with genitours & skirmishers too as Atlatl throws spears in a sense anyway so it actually works more for the spears thematically than it does for bows - haha I even went to look online quickly and of course wiki comes up first & they call it a spear thrower.
@@divicospower9112 that's true In my opinion Teutons are not THAT bad with skirms, definitely far better than Burmese and the last armour is very important but I can see that lacking husbandry is a reason to include them in this list Still, skirms are definitely not a unit I look forward to using as Teutons or slavs
Nice. I'd be curious, who'd win? The Civ that benefits most from Genitours vs. the Civ that benefits most from Imperial Skirmishers? Which Unit can be buffed the most?
I'd really like to watch a video as regards who's got the best condottieri. I think American civs would really benefit from a counter against gunpowder units
I'm under the slight impression that a name will refer specifically to the units of that name when the bonus/tech mentions multiple units, but to the broader category when it mentions only them.
it seems like it is consistent in the sense that they work as skirms and cavalry archers when the bonus is specifically for one of them, while it does not work as either when the bonus is grouped with multiple unit types (spears and skirms etc.)
There should be a 1v1 game mode where you can form a "treaty" with any of the game's civs for gold (maybe up to a limit of 3 with increasing cost each time?) to gain their team bonus so we can start potentially seeing Genitours, Imp Skirms, and Condos more often.
There was a map for 1v1 with an indestructible ally market in opposite corners. The ally couldn't do anything; it was just a market the enemy couldn't damage. Each player benefitted from the team bonus and could of course trade with that market. I thought it was really interesting. It'd be cool to have an ally dock on water maps or have multiple allies for multiple team bonuses plus multiple potential trade routes.
@@pattonramming1988 I think it could potentially be a function modded into the market, since that's the only building that has to do with inter-civ interaction specifically. Might be kind of unwieldy to have to menu through all the civs, though; perhaps the options could be alphabetically divided among a number of submenus, though I'm not really sure if nested submenus are a thing you can do in the game. Seems like a task that's more tedious than difficult, but I bet it could be done.
6:37 Byzantines fixed. With the April 2023 patch, Genitours are affected by the Byzantines skirmisher discount. As well as by Magyars Recurve Bow, Lithuanians Tower Shields 😉.
So all the things that don’t apply are because they in a way refer to the skirm, cav archer line not the unit type. But most the time they really don’t make it as clear as they could. So thanks for the video to clarify this for us.
ooooh the pattern is that if the bonus affects multiple specific units(cumans affect light cav, cav archer and steppe lancers) it's specifying the unit-line rather than the unit archetype so if there was a bonus saying "skirms and spears attack faster" it wont apply to genitours, but if it just says "cav archers attack faster" it will
Genitour is mine favourite unit. 10x for describing it, Spirit😁. p.p. I always thought that mounted and foot skirms need some animation while reloading the javelline. Now it looks like appearing of nowhere.
I can understand not including the discount from Byzantines despite how much I would like it. Their discounted Skrims are already a powerful option. Imagine if they could easily mass Genitors to go with their Cataphracts. That could easily counter their unique unit’s biggest weakness with a unit that can about match their speed. I can see this being broken af despite the lack of Bloodlines.
Don't forget that genitours are rather pointless in team games because of trade, so you are better off going for gold ranged units (or ask your team mate to do so).
Genitours are cavalry archers, but sometimes not. I think it's because there are 2 types of cavalry archers: Cavalry Archer (unit) and cavalry archers (type of a unit)
"[Gurjara Genitours] benefit from yet another advantage, receiving 50% more bonus damage..." I know what you meant, but worded like that it didn't sound like an advantage at all!
Aztecs arguably have the best imperial skirmishers so far, they outrange most archers and 9 attack is really strong for a trash unit, on the other hand Magyars also have great Genitours because of their unique tech
I would love them changed to Genitours to a Iberian regional unit, move the castle UT to team bonus and replace it with a Black Guard Tech which would buff up some military units
From a realism standpoint, Parthian tactics make *no* sense for someone flinging a javelin from horseback. The parthian shot is when a skilled horsemen is able to turn in the saddle, and shoot backwards. Such a maneuver requires outstanding horsemsnship and great archery skills, especially because at the time the Parthians were around, stirrups didn't exist. For a thrown weapon, this kind of maneuver would be completely impractical, as you'd be trying to overcome the negative momentum of your steed's direction of travel solely with arm strength, an impossible feat. Your javelin would land a few feed behind your horse's butt.
Is there a video of SOTL talking about the Sappers tech? I would like to see his analysis from a tech that is not usually research, and it's uses as an offensive and as an eco boost in the late game.
Honestly it sounds like a way the game was coded. Like some things target unit attributes or classifications while others target specific units by name. I don't mod for this game and only have a beginner knowledge of programming but thats the only reason I could think of these inconsistencies to exist.
Looking at the Steppe Husbandry description, I wonder if the capitalization is what indicates if something impacts the Genitour. As in, a Genitour is a cavalry archer but not a Cavalry Archer
Yeah, I commented about that in the previous video. They aren't that strong since they are missing a few key techs but they should do quite well against their counterunits, mostly pike-line.
@@f13rro37 I know, the last archer armor and Thumb Ring, but considering they have cavalry archer armor class, it would help with tons of counters, specially the skirmisher and spear lines
I still think that the Burmese ones would objectively be the worst of that group, taking too much damage from archers for what is ostensibly a counter unit. With only Padded Archer Armour, their Elite Genitours take 5 damage per shot from Arbalesters and that barely feels effective - compared to 2 for a fully-upgraded one or 4 with up to Leather Archer Armour. A Genitour without Husbandry at least can still catch up with and overtake foot archers. Teutons' main drawback is lacking Bracer, but they can still take down foot archers as they have Ring Archer Armour and Bloodlines.
Good video but you forgot ro mention the Magyars. I was checking the Unique imperial tech and it applies to Cavalry Archers so should apply to Genitour. I haven't check it but even if works or not, you should mention about them. Regards.
Does the combination of Geniteur and their faster castle team bonus lead to a notable effect on team win rate? Their castle rate team bonus is already arguably the best team bonus in the game. If team bonuses can stand out from the background noise the Berbers would probably be the best chance. Does this somehow play a factor in the Berbers overall win rate?
to be fair if you actually tried parthian tactics as a cavalry spear thrower you'd ruin your back after the first throw still think byz discount should count for them though
Off topic: I think civilizations without elite skirmishers should have access to the imperial skirmishers when allied with Vietnamese. Edited: I wrote with instead of without.
Yes. Basically, Turks (the only civ w/o elite skirm) should have access to imperial skirm. Just make it cost 530 wood & 580 gold and take 100 seconds to research as that is the combined cost and research time of the elite skirm and imp skirm upgrades.
Does a converted unit maintain its attack speed bonus? In other words, could mongols get an additional 25% attack speed by converting an enemy Dravidian's Genitours?
No, converted unit saving all combat stats , techs , civ bonuses from initial owner, and didnt affect by any civ bonus or tech from new owner. Only exception is 4 monastery techs: redemption, atonement , heresy, faith and teutons resist team bonus. Converted unit lose all of that from initial owner and can receive from new one. For ex. if mayans monk covert khmer monk (both fully upgraded) , that monk will "forget" redemption but "learn" atonement and heresy.
Since for some reason it wasn't put in the video. GENITOUR TIER LIST S - Turks. All upgrades + 20HP from unique tech. Tatars armor +1/+1 from unique tech, +2 LOS, A - Huns. 10% discount Castle, 20% less in Imperial. Mongols. Fire 25% faster, full upgrades. B - Gurjaras. 50% more bonus damage and a 25% food discount, but missing armor upgrade. Dravidians. Fire 25% faster, but no bloodlines no husbandry. C - Generic fully upgraded (various civilizations). Aztecs. No bloodlines no husbandry but Unique tech adds +1 attack +1 range. D - Mayans. No bloodlines no husbandry, but unique tech adds extra projectile *less inaccurate* with only 1 damage. F - Franks. No bracer, thumb ring, final armor, or bloodlines. Celts. No bloodlines, bracer, thumb ring, or final armor. Teutons. No bracer, thumb ring, or husbandry. Franks explained - Their cavalry HP bonus is based on a percentage, and since genitours and elite genitours don't have a big HP bar intrinsically, their bonus is in fact still weaker than a civ that has bloodlines, when talking about genitours. Their bonus is still good for paladins, who have a big HP bar for the percentage bonus to work with. There's more that could be mentioned but these are the major highlights.
Good idea to make a tier list, i have slightly different result according to upgrades priority vs natural targets (massed archers/ca, halbs) : 1. +4 armor 2-3. bracer, bloodlines 4-5. thumbring, husbandry S: 1. Tatars 2. Turks 3. Vietnamese A: Generic fully upgraded; Gurjaras ,Huns, Mongols - all lack last armor, and dravidians(no bloodlines,husbandry) for civ bonus /UT ; A - : Khmer, Goths , Bengalis - no thumbring B: Mayans (UT) , Koreans (wood cheaper, free armor) ; B - : Incas, Aztecs (lack last armor, UT), Malay, Ethiopians, Byzantines, Britons, Bohemians, Vikings - all no bloodlines; Cumans, Mailans, Persians - no bracer ; Sicilians (no last armor and thumbring, good in trash wars) С: Slavs and Teutons - no bracer, thumbring ; Poles and Bulgarians - no last armor D: 39. Burmese (lack +2 armor, thumbring) 40.Burgundians ( no last armor, bloodlines, thumbring) F: 41. Franks 42. Celts
Consider the following: Berbers, Turks, Hindustani, Gujaras The idea is to use a combination of Genitours, Hand Cannoneers and Camels (or a better counter unit, if your civ has access to one), the combo lets you have the best of all three worlds and counter cavalry, archers or infantry and only really leaves you vulnerable to siege (outside of all 4 civs having bombard cannon, if you consider that to be a counter) rather than going 'all-in' on a single counterable unit type.
Now we need a video about the best condottieri and imp. skirms.
Edit: spelling and thanks for all the likes guys!😊
Now this is asking the real questions.
Agree
Depends on what you need at the time you're playing, if you need high attack- aztecs, if you need speed- celts, if you need discount and production speed- goths etc.
malian condotierro are nice considering that champions are too slow
Maybe instead of the best all around, what about the civs that benefit most from them?
Regarding cumans: I think that the descriprion of steppe husbandry mentions 'cavalry archers' as a unit line, not as a unit type. Afterall, it does not affect kipchaks either, and they are definitely cav archers.
I suspect that might be reasoning behind a few of these exclusions, where in the background code the bonus is refencing the skirmisher or cav archer unit lines specifically and not class they fall under.
@@zaleost The weirdest one is recurve bow for magyars. It does work on kipchak, so it should affect all cav archers in general, but the genitour remains unaffected.
@@DommHavai That seems right to me based on in game appearance, since Kipchaks use bows and Genitours don’t. It is called recurve bow after all.
But Silk Armor mentions Cavalry Archers in the same way and that affects Genitours
@@Viscidsquare040 it's armor that they wear. Even javelin throwers can wear it.
Gotta say, was not expecting silk armor to apply to the Genitour
That does make them the generally better option than Skirmishers as Tatars, especially since the Genitours are able to keep up the late-game Tatar army's mobility
I would've thought it was like Parthian, interesting!
@@mattiamerenda8121 They're not archers; which cancels that. but; being a ranged unit; you'd think that tactics could apply; but sadly do not.
Personal favourite has to be the eagle-eyed genitours with their massive sight radius
I remember that Turk and Berbers bonus from a video you made years ago called 'Top 10 allies in AOE2'.
With how many civs there are in the game now I would LOVE to see another video like that again with a top 10 or 15 (maybe also honourable mentions) civ combos.
Heck here's a silly one. Mongol Siege Rams with Drill + Malay Karambit Warriors = Mongol Clown Cars.
Mongol Siege Rams with Drill + Teutonic Knights = speed and pierce damage protection for the Teutonic Knights, with a check for most melee units that threaten the rams. I say most just because of things like the Leitis, Obuch and Wootz Steel users.
@@sayethvexus8332 Mongol siege towers with drill are even faster. Teutonic taxis!
Why would you prefer to fill rams with Karambits over any other from of infantry?
Interestingly from gameplay perspective, Turks and Berbers are actually a weird combo, Turks are better making scouts (thanks to that +1 pierce armor) so Berbers would need to make archers, but in castle, Berbers are better making cavalries so Turks needs to swap tech into something ranged like cav archers and Janissaries both of which will guaranteed a timing where Berbers needs to fend off attack from 2 players all by himself until you massed enough ranged units to join the battle. Not to mention both civs team bonuses only helps during imperial and one of them, the genitours are going to be ignored if trade is possible.
Also on the topic of Silly wombo combo, I recommend Korean Celts mangonel combo, both just make mangonels for the entire game. They produced faster and have less minimum range while both having respective bonuses on their mangonel line.
I left my auto-captions on and amusingly during this video YT kept referring Genitours as "Janitors" throughout the video. We clearly need a video about which civ's Janitors have the best cleaning abilities.
Imagine if vietnamese + berber combo had the Imperial Genitour option 11
Or you kill the elite genitour only for it to stand up into an imperial skirmisher like a Konnik.
@@jefffinkbonner9551 omg that would be epic
@@nicholase2868 Devs are you reading this?
Duo bonuses would be awesome but game breaking 111
@@jefffinkbonner9551 What if it's like the unicorn civilisation with the Kipchaks... but for the Mayans, the rider just jumps off and becomes an Imp Skirm & the horse keeps running around throwing spears out of its head (Magudai, Kipchaks & Cavalry Archers: What's the Difference?).
I really wanted this analysis
Such an interesting unit
I think you missed Magyars Recurved Bow tech.
Am I the only one to think that we need the cav archer bonuses that affect genitours should be corrected to say "Mounted archers"? That way we would know when the game talks about just the cavalry archer unit or if it includes genitours, elephant archers, camel archers, etc...
That probably would help, especially in this case. Although I do wonder if to some extent the devs just really didn't consider team units when writing some of these bonuses thinking it would only matter for base units in their own tech tree.
@@zaleost Perhaps, but if you look at the Mongols, they have two units that have the Cavalry Archer class, the archery range cav archers and the Mangudais. So I think it would be a good thing if the Cavalry Archer class was renamed to mounted archer, especially since it includes Genitours, Elephant Archers and Camel Archers, so that whenever the game says Cavalry Archer, we know that it's just talking about the archery range unit.
The Parthian Tactics thing makes sense to me from a balance perspective, genitours with all that armor would probably be too strong. On the other hand, if they took away base armor and let Parthian Tactics apply, genitours would be really bad for civs without the tech.
On the other hand, for Byzantines, I think the devs should have let them get away with the cheap genitours. They don't have bloodlines so how broken could it be?
Yes, 10 or higher pierce armor with Parthian tactics or Lith Tower Shields will make genitours almost like rams against arrows, which is too much for not expensive trash unit.
However it looks ok to allow for genitours Byz discount, Cumans Steppe husbandry, Lith speed bonus.
Berbers is just an awesome civ, with both the Camel Archers and the Genitours having the potential to be regional units on their own.
Thanks for the video Spirit! Im getting a surgery tomorrow and wouldn't have been able to sleep at peace through the anesthesia without this second genitour video. Definitely gonna make a custom genitour civ when I get back to stack some of these bonuses. Keep up the good work you always make my day!
Maybe the reason the dev remove cav archer +4 against building is that they fear the genitour will be the mini siege against building in post imperial situation where they can flee from halbs and have enough HP to fight hussar..
nah its stupid and broken even with normal cav archers
@@maxvarjagen9810 well it's true... But only against normal building and not defensive structures.
They did it because they hate fun and have no respect for 20 years of tradition.
@@yahm0n It's called 'balance' bro. Unless you want to 'respect 20 years of tradition' by returning to endless Hun wars on Arabia and monk spam on Arena. Try AoE 1 ranked if you want to see what that feels like.
@@ArawnOfAnnwn I've never once heard someone complain about the Saracens cavalry archer bonus, not even from the people I used it against. Have you?
I think you left out the Magyars' Recurve Bow. Anyway it doesn't work, which is weird because the similar Aztec Atlatl tech does.
It works thematically though. Genitours don't use a bow, they do throw spears.
@@nathangamble125 But they benefit from Andean Sling and they don't use any sling, just like the skirmisher, which also benefits from that tech
@@Hamanuna The sling & atlatl both of which have been used in many places in the world I believe... was big for hunters in many human societies. They kind of work along the same principle/animation I think/might argue. There might be a reasoning there for why that works with genitours & skirmishers too as Atlatl throws spears in a sense anyway so it actually works more for the spears thematically than it does for bows - haha I even went to look online quickly and of course wiki comes up first & they call it a spear thrower.
It was updated, recurve bow now works.
to be honest: with the 3 highlighted civs being exptionally bad, you try to avoid skirms in any case, mounted or not
Although since skirms are cheaper losing more of them due to lacking upgrades doesn’t matter as much.
Teutons and Slavs skirmishers are better against arbalester than the Mongol, Bulgarian, Gurjaras... ones.
@@divicospower9112 that's true
In my opinion Teutons are not THAT bad with skirms, definitely far better than Burmese and the last armour is very important but I can see that lacking husbandry is a reason to include them in this list
Still, skirms are definitely not a unit I look forward to using as Teutons or slavs
@@Fenet2000 Of course they are not great but to counter horse archers, they can do the job.
Yeah, I'd have gone with civs that simply don't have a reason to pick Genitour over Skirmisher.
Nice.
I'd be curious, who'd win?
The Civ that benefits most from Genitours vs. the Civ that benefits most from Imperial Skirmishers?
Which Unit can be buffed the most?
Damn not just one, but two video about my question. Thanks a ton @Spirit of the Law!
Brilliant. I'd love a written summary of this though, there was so much information!
The fandom wiki has a list of all techs and upgrades that do affect genitour
@@ingoseiler Truuuuuee
I'm glad you're doing videos on Genitours lately, people sleep on them. They're a great unit.
I'd love to see a video on how Genitours vs skirmishers do against hand canoneers and jannisaries, was missing those from the last video.
I'd really like to watch a video as regards who's got the best condottieri. I think American civs would really benefit from a counter against gunpowder units
Many thanks for putting this video together! It was really interesting to watch and notable features to learn.
now we need a video ranking all genitours against each other!!!
I'm under the slight impression that a name will refer specifically to the units of that name when the bonus/tech mentions multiple units, but to the broader category when it mentions only them.
it seems like it is consistent in the sense that they work as skirms and cavalry archers when the bonus is specifically for one of them, while it does not work as either when the bonus is grouped with multiple unit types (spears and skirms etc.)
The Tatars bonus would disagree with that.
There should be a 1v1 game mode where you can form a "treaty" with any of the game's civs for gold (maybe up to a limit of 3 with increasing cost each time?) to gain their team bonus so we can start potentially seeing Genitours, Imp Skirms, and Condos more often.
There was a map for 1v1 with an indestructible ally market in opposite corners. The ally couldn't do anything; it was just a market the enemy couldn't damage. Each player benefitted from the team bonus and could of course trade with that market. I thought it was really interesting. It'd be cool to have an ally dock on water maps or have multiple allies for multiple team bonuses plus multiple potential trade routes.
That sounds interesting perhaps the modding community could make something like that
@@pattonramming1988 I think it could potentially be a function modded into the market, since that's the only building that has to do with inter-civ interaction specifically. Might be kind of unwieldy to have to menu through all the civs, though; perhaps the options could be alphabetically divided among a number of submenus, though I'm not really sure if nested submenus are a thing you can do in the game.
Seems like a task that's more tedious than difficult, but I bet it could be done.
Fantastic content. Thank you!
This video Is very great, we are standing here to more units such condottieri, kipchaks and imp skirm....web want more conparison! 🤩💪😁😁
Another outstanding video!
I would love to see a video based on the best 4 man team bonus's that benefits a single team member the most
6:37 Byzantines fixed. With the April 2023 patch, Genitours are affected by the Byzantines skirmisher discount. As well as by Magyars Recurve Bow, Lithuanians Tower Shields 😉.
10 piece armor Genitour, more like a fast ram
What about the Magyars🤨? Plus one range and attack?
Foot archer only
@@donraeside cav Archer only, not foot Archer. It doesn't apply to genitours, for whatever reason
It doesn't work. Probably because genitours doesn't use Bows.
@@kazogai But they benefit from Andean Sling and they don't use slingers
@@Hamanuna Skirms benefit from the Andean Sling upgrade too. It's just weird.
5:17 there are basically "cav archers" as a specific unit , and "cav archers" as a group of units
makes sense , though misleading in that case
Could you do another one of these videos for the Imperial Skirmishers? I've always wondered who would end up with the most powerful Skirmishers.
Do Condottiero next!
So all the things that don’t apply are because they in a way refer to the skirm, cav archer line not the unit type. But most the time they really don’t make it as clear as they could.
So thanks for the video to clarify this for us.
So, Team game with Tatars, Incas, and Berbers, and no one gets surprised?
7:35 no, skirmishers are ALWAYS foot archers, it’s just that the Britons specifically exclude them from the bonus.
look at how they carry their javalins, those shoulders are a buff in itself
ooooh
the pattern is that if the bonus affects multiple specific units(cumans affect light cav, cav archer and steppe lancers) it's specifying the unit-line rather than the unit archetype
so if there was a bonus saying "skirms and spears attack faster" it wont apply to genitours, but if it just says "cav archers attack faster" it will
Genitour is mine favourite unit. 10x for describing it, Spirit😁.
p.p. I always thought that mounted and foot skirms need some animation while reloading the javelline. Now it looks like appearing of nowhere.
7:27 Nice detail with overlapping the numbers
I can understand not including the discount from Byzantines despite how much I would like it. Their discounted Skrims are already a powerful option. Imagine if they could easily mass Genitors to go with their Cataphracts. That could easily counter their unique unit’s biggest weakness with a unit that can about match their speed. I can see this being broken af despite the lack of Bloodlines.
Don't forget that genitours are rather pointless in team games because of trade, so you are better off going for gold ranged units (or ask your team mate to do so).
Genitours are cavalry archers, but sometimes not. I think it's because there are 2 types of cavalry archers: Cavalry Archer (unit) and cavalry archers (type of a unit)
"[Gurjara Genitours] benefit from yet another advantage, receiving 50% more bonus damage..."
I know what you meant, but worded like that it didn't sound like an advantage at all!
Incredible work!
Aztecs arguably have the best imperial skirmishers so far, they outrange most archers and 9 attack is really strong for a trash unit, on the other hand Magyars also have great Genitours because of their unique tech
I would love them changed to Genitours to a Iberian regional unit, move the castle UT to team bonus and replace it with a Black Guard Tech which would buff up some military units
A bonus that caught me off guard was when I massed Genitour with Magyars thinking recurve bow's +1 attack and range for cav archers would affect them.
Bit late but, they now are.
Love the Genitour unit. Although they get no bonus, Byzantine army with Berber allies are so fun, Cataphracts + Genitours are beastly.
Will SOTW ever do videos about special units? Like...Eastern Swordsman, Ninja or those units that are found in the custom scenario.
World editor units, yeah that would be good
I really wanted to see a super stacked genitour at the end of the video :((
Alrighty, next 2vs2 it is definitely worth to try going berbers + turks.
im gonna use that civ builder to make the perfect Genitour
5:30 "Allies, give me sight beyond sight!"
3:10 They aren't team bonuses unless you're playing the 10x shared Civ mod....
I'd love to see this done with condotierro and Imperial skirmishers. Malian Condotierros are pretty good.
We all agree that is now time to include Genitours in Byzantine Bonus.
From a realism standpoint, Parthian tactics make *no* sense for someone flinging a javelin from horseback. The parthian shot is when a skilled horsemen is able to turn in the saddle, and shoot backwards. Such a maneuver requires outstanding horsemsnship and great archery skills, especially because at the time the Parthians were around, stirrups didn't exist. For a thrown weapon, this kind of maneuver would be completely impractical, as you'd be trying to overcome the negative momentum of your steed's direction of travel solely with arm strength, an impossible feat. Your javelin would land a few feed behind your horse's butt.
Is there a video of SOTL talking about the Sappers tech? I would like to see his analysis from a tech that is not usually research, and it's uses as an offensive and as an eco boost in the late game.
Honestly it sounds like a way the game was coded. Like some things target unit attributes or classifications while others target specific units by name. I don't mod for this game and only have a beginner knowledge of programming but thats the only reason I could think of these inconsistencies to exist.
This sort of thing should be done for Condotierri and Elite Kipchaks.
Looking at the Steppe Husbandry description, I wonder if the capitalization is what indicates if something impacts the Genitour. As in, a Genitour is a cavalry archer but not a Cavalry Archer
What about Sicilians and the bonus damage reduction?
Yeah, I commented about that in the previous video. They aren't that strong since they are missing a few key techs but they should do quite well against their counterunits, mostly pike-line.
@@f13rro37 I know, the last archer armor and Thumb Ring, but considering they have cavalry archer armor class, it would help with tons of counters, specially the skirmisher and spear lines
Genitours with parthian tactics + tartar and lithu techs would have 4+9 armor lol. Even castles would struggle against them.
I dont even play aoe2, I just like listening to him talk about numbers
We need more of the new civ quirks and unique unit stuff so many weird things in the new civ release!!
I knew u were going to say teutons celts franks As the worst 11, didnt thought about the burmese but They are wacky indeed
I still think that the Burmese ones would objectively be the worst of that group, taking too much damage from archers for what is ostensibly a counter unit. With only Padded Archer Armour, their Elite Genitours take 5 damage per shot from Arbalesters and that barely feels effective - compared to 2 for a fully-upgraded one or 4 with up to Leather Archer Armour.
A Genitour without Husbandry at least can still catch up with and overtake foot archers. Teutons' main drawback is lacking Bracer, but they can still take down foot archers as they have Ring Archer Armour and Bloodlines.
Good video but you forgot ro mention the Magyars. I was checking the Unique imperial tech and it applies to Cavalry Archers so should apply to Genitour. I haven't check it but even if works or not, you should mention about them. Regards.
Well with the American section made think that now you could make the mapuches by having a berber friend, interesting
Does the combination of Geniteur and their faster castle team bonus lead to a notable effect on team win rate?
Their castle rate team bonus is already arguably the best team bonus in the game.
If team bonuses can stand out from the background noise the Berbers would probably be the best chance.
Does this somehow play a factor in the Berbers overall win rate?
to be fair if you actually tried parthian tactics as a cavalry spear thrower you'd ruin your back after the first throw
still think byz discount should count for them though
And the Lithuanian armor and movement speed.
Very interesting!
Off topic: I think civilizations without elite skirmishers should have access to the imperial skirmishers when allied with Vietnamese.
Edited: I wrote with instead of without.
They do. The Vietnamese team bonus is the ability to upgrade Elite Skirmishers to Imperial Skirmishers.
Agreed. But at double the upgrade cost.
@@sayethvexus8332 oh, sorry, my text was wrong, instead of with, I'd say without.
@@f13rro37 it makes sense.
Yes. Basically, Turks (the only civ w/o elite skirm) should have access to imperial skirm. Just make it cost 530 wood & 580 gold and take 100 seconds to research as that is the combined cost and research time of the elite skirm and imp skirm upgrades.
Since Genitours are a rare unit, and can only be acquired with a Berber ally… Cavalry Archer AND Skirmisher upgrades should apply to the unit.
Me: So... are you are cavalry archer or a skirmisher?
Genitour: Yes.
Magyars were missing! And which one is the best now? :D
None gonna mention the Magyars' recurve bow not applying ):. That would make them some of the best
4:33 awe, he helped his friend finish the militia off
How about (especially with the Vietnamese) imperial skirmisher vs. Genitour?
Now that Magyar Genitours get +1 attack and range, they might be the best imo
what about magyars? does recurve bow apply to the genitour for extra range and attack?
Does a converted unit maintain its attack speed bonus? In other words, could mongols get an additional 25% attack speed by converting an enemy Dravidian's Genitours?
No, converted unit saving all combat stats , techs , civ bonuses from initial owner, and didnt affect by any civ bonus or tech from new owner. Only exception is 4 monastery techs: redemption, atonement , heresy, faith and teutons resist team bonus. Converted unit lose all of that from initial owner and can receive from new one. For ex. if mayans monk covert khmer monk (both fully upgraded) , that monk will "forget" redemption but "learn" atonement and heresy.
They really need to clarify what effects them and what does not
Do Italians get that pavise tech or whatever it’s called applied to the g bois? Probably not… was dreaming of condo and genitors
I am not sure if SOTL has ever mentioned it, why do skirmishers not gain firing bonuses from thumb ring?
It should be interesting to have data on the impact of your videos. For example the % of games with genitour before and after your videos
I think this bonuses are absolutely random and the developers did not think about them
5:22 Probably because Creation Time affects units and not unit types.
Music seemed quiter today...
Hey SOTL, you did not mention Maguars. Do you know if thei bonus applies to genitours?
Since for some reason it wasn't put in the video.
GENITOUR TIER LIST
S - Turks. All upgrades + 20HP from unique tech. Tatars armor +1/+1 from unique tech, +2 LOS,
A - Huns. 10% discount Castle, 20% less in Imperial. Mongols. Fire 25% faster, full upgrades.
B - Gurjaras. 50% more bonus damage and a 25% food discount, but missing armor upgrade. Dravidians. Fire 25% faster, but no bloodlines no husbandry.
C - Generic fully upgraded (various civilizations). Aztecs. No bloodlines no husbandry but Unique tech adds +1 attack +1 range.
D - Mayans. No bloodlines no husbandry, but unique tech adds extra projectile *less inaccurate* with only 1 damage.
F - Franks. No bracer, thumb ring, final armor, or bloodlines. Celts. No bloodlines, bracer, thumb ring, or final armor. Teutons. No bracer, thumb ring, or husbandry.
Franks explained - Their cavalry HP bonus is based on a percentage, and since genitours and elite genitours don't have a big HP bar intrinsically, their bonus is in fact still weaker than a civ that has bloodlines, when talking about genitours. Their bonus is still good for paladins, who have a big HP bar for the percentage bonus to work with.
There's more that could be mentioned but these are the major highlights.
Good idea to make a tier list, i have slightly different result according to upgrades priority vs natural targets (massed archers/ca, halbs) : 1. +4 armor 2-3. bracer, bloodlines 4-5. thumbring, husbandry
S: 1. Tatars 2. Turks 3. Vietnamese
A: Generic fully upgraded; Gurjaras ,Huns, Mongols - all lack last armor, and dravidians(no bloodlines,husbandry) for civ bonus /UT ; A - : Khmer, Goths , Bengalis - no thumbring
B: Mayans (UT) , Koreans (wood cheaper, free armor) ; B - : Incas, Aztecs (lack last armor, UT), Malay, Ethiopians, Byzantines, Britons, Bohemians, Vikings - all no bloodlines; Cumans, Mailans, Persians - no bracer ; Sicilians (no last armor and thumbring, good in trash wars)
С: Slavs and Teutons - no bracer, thumbring ; Poles and Bulgarians - no last armor
D: 39. Burmese (lack +2 armor, thumbring) 40.Burgundians ( no last armor, bloodlines, thumbring)
F: 41. Franks 42. Celts
I am outraged that the Byzantine Bonus does Not apply.
The Devs can expect a formal complaint from the Senate!
Yeomen should be buffed for every Archer unit, not just for foot archers
What about Recurve Bow ? it affects CA right ? that was not discussed in the video
I think the title of the video should be “civ bonuses” because it’s currently a little deceptive
just commenting to help algorithm.
seems like some of the build bonus (price and time) is targeting the buildings and not the units?
My only question after looking all of this is, what is the best set of allies for a genitour user in a 4v4?
Be Turks
Ally with Britons to create faster
Ally with Spanish to get that trade going and hit imp fast
Ally with Berbers for genitours
Spam genitours
Maybe Berbers, Tatars, Turks and Vietnamese
Some honorable metions would be Mayans, Gurjaras, Mongols or Huns
Consider the following:
Berbers, Turks, Hindustani, Gujaras
The idea is to use a combination of Genitours, Hand Cannoneers and Camels (or a better counter unit, if your civ has access to one), the combo lets you have the best of all three worlds and counter cavalry, archers or infantry and only really leaves you vulnerable to siege (outside of all 4 civs having bombard cannon, if you consider that to be a counter) rather than going 'all-in' on a single counterable unit type.